The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: ejh on February 14, 2017, 03:59:36 AM
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Hi All,
I really could use some help here.
My wife is unhappy about our finances, but I just can't relate to her feelings. I hate to see her unhappy, but don't agree with why she's feeling that way.
Some background.
We have 2 kids (ages 2 & 3).
1 income from my job.
Since the kids were born we both naturally decided she stay at home.
My income covers all our expenses - mortgage, utilities, daycare for both kids (until noon), food, etc.
Our mortgage, utilities and daycare take up more than 50% of our income.
Not much is left to save from our take home pay (at most 10% now, compared to a few years ago at about 50% if I recall).
I do have savings through work.
She's trying really hard to cut down on spending. We decided on a weekly amount that should cover groceries, maid, clothing, baby care, and other stuff that's under her 'responsibility'.
At the end of the month, she wants to see results from all her hard work (i.e. more money saved), but that doesn't really happen.
When I look at the numbers, I see how small purchases add up, how we buy stuff we don't need and how we can easily cut out spending. I'm even willing to forgo some luxuries (e.g. the maid) in order to save more.
But from her point of view she is constantly giving up on stuff she needs. She feels stretched way past then what she can handle and there is absolutely no way to give up on the maid.
She's upset that if she buys one thing at the pharmacy or one new shirt, then she can't buy anything else that week or month.
She's upset that she can't afford things for herself.
Some of what she wants is, in my opinion, a total waste of money. In her opinion they are necessities.
In my opinion we have way to much clothing and toys for the kids. To her, we are lucky the grandparents are buying more.
She sees other mothers with new clothes, jewelry, makeup, etc. and gets upset because this winter her mom bought her new clothes instead of her buying herself. It makes no sense to me. Half those mother work, the other half also get stuff from their parents. Who knows what kind of debt they're in. She has jewelry, but doesn't feel like wearing it all the time.
She realizes she has more than others, but still gets upset that all her cutting back doesn't have any immediate results and this makes it hard to see long term results like retiring comfortably. Heck, I'm more worried about us not saving enough at all.
I don't get it and I don't think rationalizing will help with her feelings. And if I don't sympathize, I come off too strict and not understanding.
So to return to my question, I hate to see her unhappy, but don't agree with why she's feeling that way.
What can I possibly do?
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So you have both a maid and childcare until noon?
I'm not sure what to say. Was she raised very wealthy? Do you live somewhere that this is standard for a SAHM?
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Yes.
Yes.
I would say Yes here too, but I may be wrong.
This is why I say I can't relate.
But it doesn't help mentioning these facts to her.
She is busy, don't get me wrong. She takes care of both kids, prepares food, takes care of the house and much more.
When I present it as you do I am taken to be cheap who doesn't understand what it's like.
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I'd also add that talking about:
- wants vs. needs
- setting priorities
- realizing how much we do have and how we can do without
seemed to get nowhere in the past.
They may help technically for a while but I don't see any long term realization in her that we're spending too much.
The affect always boils down to how 'we always need to cut back'.
She may go along with some stuff but I don't think she's ever really happy about it.
For example I pushed that we cut out cable a while ago. She went along with it, but I'm sure she still wants to renew a subscription eventually.
I'm not judging, it's fine if she likes cable I don't care, but to see it as an issue that we don't have cable is beyond me.
I've pretty much given up on trying to change her outlook on life, and I'm trying to make personal changes that may reflect on her without imposing (such as biking to work).
But the amounts I can save on my own seem like peanuts to me.
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It's hard to tell without more details, but it doesn't sound like she's wanting to spend huge amount on ridiculous luxuries. (And I could be wrong, but it's not clear how often she's buying the new shirt and how much it costs, or how many toys she's buying for the kids.) I know many will balk at the maid, but it's not something I'd be prepared to fight over to hard with a mom of littles. (I am not a parent.)
What luxuries (or semi-luxuries) do *you* have? Are you asking her to give up more and more, while being unwilling to eat meatless a few times a week or give up buying lunch at work once a week or drive a more modest car or give up your poker game or raise the summer thermostat 2*, whatever--things that feel like sacrifices for you, rather than her? What cuts have you made, or have come from your sphere of responsibility? Since most of the desire to save more and cut comes from you, it seems like you should be taking the lead on those cuts. Show her that you are willing to shoulder more of the burden on this, and you might get more buy in.
You say you are willing to forgo the maid. If she would be the one picking up most of that slack (which I'm guessing, based on the fact that she's the SAHP), of course you are, if your end experience is more or less the same, it's not only meaningless for you to be "willing", it probably feels kind of insulting to her. "I'm willing to give up your help with the house, and to have you do most of it yourself." This is especially true for someone raised in a wealthy household and used to typical levels of spending and outsourcing. I assume she's been this way since you met, yes? Have you volunteered to pick up at least 50% of the housework, if not more, if the maid service ends? If it means this much to you to save the money, that seems like the place to start. And/or find other ways to lighten her load. Offer to cook dinner 3 nights a week (if she currently does all the cooking.) Offer to give her 30 minutes of down time after you've gotten home. This may be far more about her feeling overwhelmed than it is about her wanting luxuries. Address that, and perhaps some more pieces will fall in to place. Maybe it is just about money and clothes and makeup and wanting to keep up with the Joneses. But maybe it's about a fairly new mom, at home with two small kids, perhaps mourning the life she used to have and struggle with the new normal. If you can sort that out and see whether there's some truth there, maybe you can find ways to help her, and at least some of the money stuff might fall in to place. If she's more content with her life and less overwhelmed, that new shirt or new shade of lipstick as an emotional bandaid might not feel as tempting.
Is she interested in going back to work, and would you guys come out ahead after paying for childcare (compared to the partial childcare for which you are already paying? Can you start a side hustle of some kind? Or can she (or both of you together)?
And perhaps you can look for more middle ground. Could the maid come every other week instead of every week? (Or every third week instead of every other)? Would it be cheaper if you hired a teen or college student to be a mother's helper, so your wife could clean while someone watched the kids? (I'm guess this would be a lower hourly rate than a housekeeper.) Similarly, would an in-home sitter be cheaper than your current childcare?
Also, reading through the post on how to convert your SO to mustachianism might be helpful.
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immattdamon - She actually strongly believes in staying at home and raising the kids. I think it's great too, but it comes from her first.
I once mentioned she find a part time job, but that didn't come off well for a couple of reasons.
Villanelle - Thanks for posting an alternate view. I strongly appreciate it.
However I must say that I can counter 99% of what you mention.
Going meatless is something I can do 6 out of 7 days a week. She cooks meat many times a week as it's necessary nutrition in her opinion.
I do not buy lunch at work (we have free meals). My car is a 21 year old Honda I my parents gave me when they got a new car and I've been biking to work for the past months.
I don't go out much at all, definitely not to poker games and I don't drink. I rarely turn on the heater or cooler, regardless of the season.
Regarding the maid - it is her request to have one. I am willing to take care of 100% the cleaning, but she is not willing to allow it. I currently clean and wash up many nights a week. If not, I am washing the kids and putting them to bed. I used to do the laundry, but she didn't like it and constantly nudged about it until I let it go. When I get home I immediately chip in with the chores - cleaning, washing, whatever. I usually don't eat dinner until taking care of these things.
See my comment above about her going back to work.
Sorry, I don't mean to brag at all, I do all this with love and with no problem. But these are the facts.
Yes, she was overwhelmed for the past 2.5-3 years. Having 2 kids a year apart is overwhelming, exhausting and tiring. That's why both are in daycare until noon. In order for her to have a few hours on her own.
I am thinking a lot about a side hustle and so is she. But I don't really have any ideas of what to do.
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If there's one thing I did push for in the past couple of years it was when purchasing a house.
There were 2 options, and I chose the 4 bedroom/3 bath instead of the 3 bedroom/2 bath, realizing that we plan to have many kids and a bigger one would suit us for many many years to come.
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Sorry for all these separate posts, things just keep coming to me and I need to get them out.
I just feel so trapped. On the one hand she is trying hard. Even if to me or you it seems silly or completely wasteful, for her it is a struggle.
So I don't want to say 'let's get rid of the maid', or 'find a part time job' because I don't want to get her down. She feels like no matter how much she tries it's not good enough (for me perhaps?).
On the other hand, this is going nowhere. We either need to increase our income or reduce our spending. There's no other way. Any reduction in spending means another 'sacrifice' for her which leads to stress, sadness, whatever.
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EJH,
I will bite, we are in a very similar situation. We had a 2 year old and a set of new born twins, so yeah I feel your pain! Kids are now 4, 2 and 2.
About a year ago my spouse had been working part time, and doing most of the childcare, I had a demanding job. After about six months my spouse needed a break from the kids, and I needed a break from my career. So we went from 1.5 incomes down to one income. Probably 30k less after tax a year. Trust me we felt the pain of adjustment despite my firm grasp of our spending and planning. My kids do in fact go to daycare 1 day a week, (take them to our sitters house.) This is good for my mental health, my wife, and breaks up the week for the kids so they don't go crazy. I also have a side hustle, that gives me something to work on outside of the house. Honestly it has really helped keep my identity. Its hard to work 10 years and then go to "only" being a SAHP.
I think you really need to post a case study if you want to get more directed advice. It sounds like your spouse is the one who is giving things up more than you. For example, I would much rather pack my own lunch than clean my own bathroom you know?
A few things:
Good lord let your Spouse have cable (or similar cheap at home entertainment). Get sling TV is 20 bucks a month.
Its winter, winter sucks. It drives everyone a little insane to be stuck inside so much.
How much is the maid? If its $200 a month its hard to fault her for that, if its $1000 you need to have a real conversation about this.
Sounds like your Spouse also needs an outlet. That could be a side gig, or something as simple as a night out with girlfriends.
This situation could be one of those where mental health > saving $50 a month.
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Sorry for all these separate posts, things just keep coming to me and I need to get them out.
I just feel so trapped. On the one hand she is trying hard. Even if to me or you it seems silly or completely wasteful, for her it is a struggle.
So I don't want to say 'let's get rid of the maid', or 'find a part time job' because I don't want to get her down. She feels like no matter how much she tries it's not good enough (for me perhaps?).
On the other hand, this is going nowhere. We either need to increase our income or reduce our spending. There's no other way. Any reduction in spending means another 'sacrifice' for her which leads to stress, sadness, whatever.
Seriously where do you live?
As the previous poster said, Lack of sunlight and exercise can really suck!
Honestly see if you cant make a few temporary measures until spring, everything is easier in the spring! You throw the kids outside and clean the kitchen, that is a win!
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Do you have the same financial goals? What are hers?
Who keeps track of the finances? What about if she keeps track of everything, and you have a monthly or biweekly briefing from her?
All that said, childcare plus maid with sahm is nuts to me.
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You say she's trying hard, and she's struggling with her frustration. To me that sounds like someone who is learning, and someone who is trying. both very commendable in my eyes.
In the end, math is math, right? You've got finite resources and together you puzzle-piece your plan together.
I wonder if you handed her the total budget and asked her to make recommendations, what she'd say? If she wants to have more $$ for spending, something else needs to go. Would she be interesting in trading maid service for some extra spending money, for example? In the end there's no railing against the math, all that's left is to continue to work on the right mix of saving, spending, and earning for you both.
In the short term, I'd recommend letting her know how much you appreciate her for her work as a SAHM, and for her efforts to manage your money well.
SIS
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My wife is a SAHM and we have 2 kids, 9 and 5. My wife has outlets that allow her to get away. Granted one kid is in school and the other is in preschool now but before that she joined a MOMS club and did all kinds of activities through that group. This also included Moms night out.
Lots of times I take the girls out on errands and since we don't get to do this often they find it to be a special treat to go out with Dad. (That sounded like I don't spend time with my kids but what I mean is we do this about every other week) I often make a game of going out and give them special tasks or jobs. If I go grocery shopping I ask them which brands that Mom wants since I often forget. My wife finds it difficult to take both kids out but I find it fun and enjoy the time. Of course I don't spend all day every day with the kids.
Neither me nor my wife would consider having a maid. We were both raised where that just wasn't an option. It doesn't even compute with me so I can't speak to it.
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Did you guys discuss any of this kind of thing before marriage? It really seems like there is some fundamental incompatibility about some huge issues. She's seen a lot of cuts and is struggling with that, and you've seen not enough cuts and are struggling. I don't think either of you is right or wrong, but it sounds like you'e both moved about as far as you can toward the other's ideal, and you are still so far apart.
Is she happy with a 10% savings rate, or less? Has she looked at the budget and suggested what she thinks could change? Do you guys have longer term goals, both financial and otherwise? If she were 100% in control of the budget and al spending, what would that look like? Keep everything you have, add more spending money, and reduce savings? Could you get a higher paying job?
You mention having lots of kids, and yet it seems like you are very different pages about some pretty major things. Do you both want many more kids?
Also, it seems like you took my post more literally than intended. Meatless meals were just an example. Is there truly nothing else you con possibly trim from your own side of the expense sheet?
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Please make sure you don't have any more children. Probably ever, but certainly not until you and your wife have implemented an agreed, sustainable financial situation.
You say that you feel trapped. You have a lot of responsibility as sole provider for your wife and two children (and sole or part provider for the maid as well) for the next 16 years at least. Succeeding at meeting that responsibility depends on you maintaining your physical and mental health and continuing to earn at a high level for all that time, so a feeling of trapped seems pretty natural to me. Does your wife understand how you feel?
As to how your wife feels about expenditure, you say that mortgage, utilities and daycare take up 50% of your income and savings take up another 10%. That does mean that your wife is at best seeing only 40% of what you earn as "available" - this might account for some of the discrepancy between you seeing a lot of spending and her seeing less.
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Can you cut back Childcare to less than every day? Everyday seems excessive. Do you watch over the kids when you get home, that should allow her 'me time'? Is she sleeping in and you drop the kids at childcare, or is she getting up early to drop them off only to return to an empty house? Is the hard work grocery shopping and cooking, laundry, or is keeping the budget the hard work? For us, laundry was difficult early on because we cared more about stains/pretreatment, etc. but we got busier so now we care less. Now I can help with laundry when I get home. You could order groceries delivered for little extra cost, especially if it saved you on childcare. I agree that a case study would help. I imagine all of our advice would be different if you had a $1,000/month racecar building hobby.
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Jon Bon -
The maid is about $250. I don't have an issue with the maid specifically. I raised it as an expense which can easily be cut out and I am willing to take that load.
We didn't really cut cable, but 'downgraded' to a cheaper option with less content.
If she wants to go out, by all means she can. She does go to a study group once a week or two and if she wants to go out more that's fine with me. But as I said we are pretty much at the limit of how much we can spend.
She used to be a gym member, but cancelled it because she doesn't go. This was her decision even though I pushed her to go. I cannot force her to exercise.
ShortInSeattle - I agree that she is trying hard. This is making it difficult for me to approach as I wrote in my previous reply. We used to budget together. It worked before the kids and house. Then it became arguments about saving vs spending. So then she offered we set a weekly sum for her to manage and I budget the rest on my own. Fine with me. Even ok with me when she exceeds her budget. But today she say how much we actually saved end of month and got upset that it's so little even while she's trying so hard.
MightyAl - I take the kids off her hands as much as I can and enjoy it too!
I like all the replies, but at the end of the day, I don't see what I can offer other than increasing income or reducing spending, and both of these are hard for me to get across.
Maybe the root of the problem is just she's too stressed out in order to make any more changes, I don't know....
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You mention a study group. What kind of study? It doesn't sound like she's in school, so is this a religious group of some kind? If you are active in a spiritual community, would that be a source of free or cheaper activities? Friendships she might be able to cultivate with people who live a bit more simply?
If you tithe, is that a possible place for budget cuts?
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It's good that you are talking about it and this stuff is not that easy. A few notes
-- I find myself getting stressed, sad and mad in accordance with my monthly cycle, yes, PMS. Now, this is only background information, don't you dare talk to her about PMS, but realize that if things are tough or unusually stressed/emotional, you can take a break and resume talks a few days later.
-- It is harder but better for you two to work on your goals together. Make the budget together
-- Having more kids will present more challenges, in terms of time and money so you both need to decide how that works in your life.
-- In my early marriage when money felt tight I put a sheet of paper and a golf pencll on the wall and my husband and I wrote down any money we spent that day. It didn't work perfectly but it raised our consciousness.
-- Is her alone time -- shopping time? That would lead to frustration. I think the child care could be switched out to things like baby classes or outings some of the time. Budget for a babysitter so you can go on dates maybe once a month.
Good luck!!
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Villanelle - Yes she has looked at the budget and even set the weekly amount she thinks she needs. At first when she set the amount it sounded like a whole lot of cash to her. 3 months later it is constraining and she has no room to move (her words). Look, she's trying, I get it. I'd be happy if we spend less, but I'm not on her back about it (I used to be). But at least given the ability to set your own sum, have the freedom to not work, etc. - all I ask is to be happy about it and not constantly upset about what we don't have.
And I really can't see any area I can cut back. I barely buy anything for myself. I don't go out much. Don't get new gadgets.
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Perhaps I will post a case study with all details of how much we have saved, equity, etc.
Hopefully I can get some insight into how we are doing holistically and then I can look at the monthly spendings differently.
Because my main concern is that we are not saving enough.
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Sorry for all these separate posts, things just keep coming to me and I need to get them out.
I just feel so trapped. On the one hand she is trying hard. Even if to me or you it seems silly or completely wasteful, for her it is a struggle.
So I don't want to say 'let's get rid of the maid', or 'find a part time job' because I don't want to get her down. She feels like no matter how much she tries it's not good enough (for me perhaps?).
On the other hand, this is going nowhere. We either need to increase our income or reduce our spending. There's no other way. Any reduction in spending means another 'sacrifice' for her which leads to stress, sadness, whatever.
Well, it's not, is it? Because you're not happy with what she has done so far. First rule of communicating with a spouse: own up to the obvious. Every "helpful" suggestion of yours about how "she" can cut back you see as a logical solution, and she hears as a criticism of her efforts. No wonder your conversations don't go anywhere.
It sounds to me like you guys started from very different places/expectations and are talking different languages. You are assuming that your view of the world is correct, and that since she has a different view/expectation of what life is supposed to be, she is wrong, and therefore it's your job to convert her. You said it right up front: "I don't agree with why she's feeling that way." Dude, that is not your place -- you don't get to tell her how she feels. She is a fully-fledged independent human who is entitled to her feelings, whether you agree with them or not. The more you ignore that, the more you force her to double down to try to make you see.
This is a communication issue. If you want to move past this impasse, she needs to feel heard -- she needs to come away from your next conversation fully convinced that you respect her needs/wants/goals as much as your own. And that means talking feelings instead of dollars and cents. You say she feels like her efforts aren't enough; hear her out on that, and take a hard look at things from her perspective (e.g., are you patronizing, do you talk to her as if you're a parent/are the one with the authority, etc. -- I see you say you used to be on her back about this but have gotten better; women have long memories, so the subject probably still leaves her feeling defensive and attacked). Talk to her about your own feelings -- how your efforts never feel like enough, how you work so hard to provide a good life for her and the kids, and it hurts you that what you can provide isn't enough to provide her the lifestyle she wants. That every time her parents have to buy her clothes, it makes you feel like you're not enough for her. That you feel trapped on this never-ending treadmill, struggling as hard as you can just to keep your head above water, with no chance to ever get off because you can't save enough to allow you to retire in the foreseeable future. Or whatever your true, actual feelings are.
I think once you guys work through the feelings part and she actually feels heard and validated, you will be able to talk numbers with more progress. But it can't be about what *she* can fix -- start with what you yourself are willing to give up. You guys both have equal responsibility for getting you where you are now. She wants daycare + SAHM; you wanted a bigger house. How much more does that larger house cost you every month, in mortgage, taxes, upkeep, electric/gas, etc.? Is it worth it, or is it time to reconsider? Can you go down to a 1-car family and you bike to work every day? Etc. It's not a tit-for-tat thing, or who's more at fault than the other -- it's re-examining all of the choices that led you to where you are now and seeing which of them aren't making you as happy as you'd thought they would. (As an aside, it sounds like *both* of you think that the kinds of changes you personally can make are just a drop in the bucket -- that's the first mindset that has to change, because when the budget feels too tight, every penny counts). And for the love of Pete, start praising her for her efforts - catch her doing something right, and let her know you appreciate her sacrifices for the good of the team.
I know it sounds like I'm being hard on you -- I'm actually on your side here; being the sole breadwinner and working so hard for such little savings wouldn't be tolerable for me at all. But it just jumps off the page at me that you are approaching her as if you are The Decider, and that therefore your job is just to persuade her to your way of thinking, and if she won't come around, that is her problem. And that will get you nowhere fast -- you need to treat her as an equal partner with an equal voice in your *joint* goals. Start by trying to see things her way, approaching her with empathy and understanding and sharing her frustrations. If she grew up with maids and a SAHM and new clothes and all the trappings, you are asking her to live a life that she never expected and maybe doesn't find so compelling now that she's actually living it every day. So come together and approach this as a team, showing her that you are personally willing to try new approaches and change things up until you find something that makes you both happy. Because any life where one of you is not happy is not acceptable, period.
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We have an 8 month old st home now and though we know that 2 children are exponentially more difficult than 1, we are both amazed at the idea of a stay at home parent and a regular nanny. We both work, both make just about the same, and we have a sitter when we are working. When we get home from work, it is immediate child care/feeding/cleaning etc. if one parent decides to stay home, that parents job and contribution to the family is doing that stuff while the other person is making money for everyone to eat. If the person that stays at home pawns that responsibility off on someone else (that costs money), that person needs to just go back to work... Unless the worker is making a crap ton of money. Maybe your career and income would help guide our advice?
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Wow, I am not going to judge here without hearing your wife's side of the story.
If she likes to shop, maybe you can get her to extreme coupon, or at least use rebate apps. Your grocery budget will go down, she will still get to spend time in the store, and she will get a mood boost from finding deals and donating the surplus to charity.
Have you encouraged her to set up her own investment account, something like Acorns maybe, or Robin Hood? It would give her an incentive to save some money out of her budget, and buying a few shares might replace buying a new t-shirt or something.
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Laura33 - Thank you so much for your post, this is what I am looking for - ways for both of us to be happy while keeping our finances in shape.
You highlighted her feelings on how she tries but it's not good enough. I think this is also in her eyes, not mine. I do admit that we used to argue about her spending, but I really feel that for the past year (maybe half a year) I do not talk to her about overspending. I approach her with ideas on how we can cut spending in general. She offers I get new stuff and I say I don't need to spend now. I stop drinking the expensive coffee at home, but still continue to order more for her because she likes it. I try. I fail sometimes in how I word things or my attitude, but as husband and wife, I also feel like we must talk about things that we disagree on and I can't be held to blame every time I say something in the wrong way.
I say I don't agree with why she is feeling this way. I did not say that she's not entitled to those feelings. This is my conflict, I want her to be happy. I want her to feel like the other moms are missing out. That's my goal. But how can this be done if the constant message I'm hearing is that it's not enough?
You say listen to her goals. What do I say if her goal cannot be reached without a change without sounding patronizing? As if I have the idea which can 'save her'? This is not how I want to sound. The current budget scheme we use is her idea. She brought it forward and I agreed right away even though I don't think it's the best.
I also feel as if these long/serious talks are hard to make. I don't say this to put her down, rather because many time when I raise serious topics, I get blocked by her because she's stressed out from the day. I'm always the one who wants to talk.
So let's say we talk, and I listen and she listens and the communication is flowing. At the end of the day this needs to become something we can act on, not just talk about. Acting on something means being committed to it. It means that when you can't buy something, you may feel a pinch, but you then remember why you can't and get over it. You don't dwell on it an keep coming back to how much you are lacking.
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MrsWolfeRN - thanks I agree both sides to be heard and would love to talk to someone about these issues together with her.
Setting up her own account sounds great!!! I never thought of that and I wonder if I can do that where I live.
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Yes, posting a case study may help. Right now, it sounds like she feels she has no room to move, and you feel you have no room to move. Without details, it sounds like many of us are just lobbing random guesses as to where the problem lies and what might be helpful. With a case study, we can give more concrete ideas of where/how to cut spending/increase income.
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+1 for case study
What kind of income are we talking about? It seems that you have a very low household income and therefore need to stretch it pretty far. You have no car payment, no expensive lunches, no expensive hobbies...is your home paid off? Does she have an auto loan?
The expenses that you are addressing seem pretty small but if the budget is small, then my perspective is off.
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If you are looking for opportunities to talk, could you and your wife go out walking at weekends? There is something about the rhythmic action of walking, plus being out in nature, plus not looking at each other, which can make communication easier. You can take the kids: at their age tone matters more than content.
The other thing I would say is that with two very young children and a house bought in the last few years the two of you are probably at the peak of "required" spending, and even at that you are managing to save something. As long as you can keep income coming in which exceeds expenditure, things will get better over time even as they currently are, so financially you are not in the desperate position of many others. It is with your emotions that both you and your wife are having your big issues: you are stressed out that you are not saving enough, your wife is stressed that she can't spend enough. It is those emotional reactions to your situation that you need to understand in each other and come to terms with.
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3. Does she work out or do any exercise? That can do wonders for depression, and it's plausible that she is actually depressed right now.
Have you considered depression as a possibility? Honestly, I would suggest a bit of couples counseling for you - a little facilitation with your communication could probably do wonders. You are asking pretty specific questions on framing your talks and an online forum with just one side of the story can only get you so far.
Also, when you are discussing budgets, do you consider timeframe on any of your expenses? Daycare will go away in a few years when your kids start school. Perhaps putting a short term spin on your financial situation will help. Things are tight now, but not forever.
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I'm sorry, but I am amazed at how his wife is a SAHM, has daily childcare and a maid and people here are defending her when she feels like she has nothing? If she wants to be a SAHM and have her husband be the sole provider that is fine, but then do it. There is absolute value in the work of a SAHM equal to that of a spouse working full time to provide financially for the family, but not if the SAHM is not doing the work that comes with being a SAHM. In my opinion it's either childcare and a maid and get back to work or be an actual SAHM. How does he need to more considerate of her feelings when she doesn't seem to give his feelings/stress all that much though given that she has to be a SAHM, but also has to have childcare and a maid?
There is no way I would be accepting this kind of arrangement myself and I would insist we be talking to someone about this.
These days with modern technology taking care of the house and children is far easier than it has ever been and your wife who doesn't work can't manage what women for ages have managed?
My mother managed raising 4 kids while working either part time or full time at any point.
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This is quite the complex situation and the solution is difficult to implement, but worth the effort. Both of you need to adjust your expectations of your dream life. Your beloved wife is accustomed to a high maintenance lifestyle (how she was raised) where math was (probably or close to) irrelevant, and cannot now comprehend why the family cannot have the house, childcare, SAHM, maid and generous spending money while still growing the bank account. You, dear husband, were raised differently and understand that choices have to be made because in your current situation math is relevant.
Please have a conversation with your wife to lovingly ascertain what she wants to do with her life and get out of life. Ask her what staying home to raise the children means to her. Does that mean staying home until they are in school? If so, you both can adjust your expectations for a longer term view, that is you aren’t going to save much right now and that’s OK, but in 3-4 years she can return to work and the savings account will grow with less sacrifices.
If she just doesn’t want to work, she will give a definition of raising the children that turns this into a 16 year project where she can’t possibly work any of those years (now they’re babies, then I want to home school, then I’ll time the third child to ensure another 10-15 years as a housewife). If this is the case, you need to be honest with each other and yourselves. She may feel this way because a lot of women raised in wealthy households were groomed to be socialites whose function was to support their husband’s careers and handle the household. The objective of a college education for such a woman wasn’t to have a career, but to demonstrate she is an intelligent well-bred accomplished woman who would make a competent complement to her husband (I graduated from one such finishing school). As a wife she’ll need to admit this is her vision for her life. As a husband you need to decide if you like the idea of having such a wife and realize that the sacrifice you will make to have that/give her that will be working much longer than you might like. If you don’t like that idea, then you need to explore the types of community activities that the wealthy engage in to give back and see if your wife could compromise and try getting a paying job in those activities once the children are in public school. The key here is to get a long term view and expectations you can both thrive with.
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Sorry for all these separate posts, things just keep coming to me and I need to get them out.
I just feel so trapped. On the one hand she is trying hard. Even if to me or you it seems silly or completely wasteful, for her it is a struggle.
So I don't want to say 'let's get rid of the maid', or 'find a part time job' because I don't want to get her down. She feels like no matter how much she tries it's not good enough (for me perhaps?).
On the other hand, this is going nowhere. We either need to increase our income or reduce our spending. There's no other way. Any reduction in spending means another 'sacrifice' for her which leads to stress, sadness, whatever.
Well, it's not, is it? Because you're not happy with what she has done so far. First rule of communicating with a spouse: own up to the obvious. Every "helpful" suggestion of yours about how "she" can cut back you see as a logical solution, and she hears as a criticism of her efforts. No wonder your conversations don't go anywhere.
It sounds to me like you guys started from very different places/expectations and are talking different languages. You are assuming that your view of the world is correct, and that since she has a different view/expectation of what life is supposed to be, she is wrong, and therefore it's your job to convert her. You said it right up front: "I don't agree with why she's feeling that way." Dude, that is not your place -- you don't get to tell her how she feels. She is a fully-fledged independent human who is entitled to her feelings, whether you agree with them or not. The more you ignore that, the more you force her to double down to try to make you see.
This is a communication issue. If you want to move past this impasse, she needs to feel heard -- she needs to come away from your next conversation fully convinced that you respect her needs/wants/goals as much as your own. And that means talking feelings instead of dollars and cents. You say she feels like her efforts aren't enough; hear her out on that, and take a hard look at things from her perspective (e.g., are you patronizing, do you talk to her as if you're a parent/are the one with the authority, etc. -- I see you say you used to be on her back about this but have gotten better; women have long memories, so the subject probably still leaves her feeling defensive and attacked). Talk to her about your own feelings -- how your efforts never feel like enough, how you work so hard to provide a good life for her and the kids, and it hurts you that what you can provide isn't enough to provide her the lifestyle she wants. That every time her parents have to buy her clothes, it makes you feel like you're not enough for her. That you feel trapped on this never-ending treadmill, struggling as hard as you can just to keep your head above water, with no chance to ever get off because you can't save enough to allow you to retire in the foreseeable future. Or whatever your true, actual feelings are.
I think once you guys work through the feelings part and she actually feels heard and validated, you will be able to talk numbers with more progress. But it can't be about what *she* can fix -- start with what you yourself are willing to give up. You guys both have equal responsibility for getting you where you are now. She wants daycare + SAHM; you wanted a bigger house. How much more does that larger house cost you every month, in mortgage, taxes, upkeep, electric/gas, etc.? Is it worth it, or is it time to reconsider? Can you go down to a 1-car family and you bike to work every day? Etc. It's not a tit-for-tat thing, or who's more at fault than the other -- it's re-examining all of the choices that led you to where you are now and seeing which of them aren't making you as happy as you'd thought they would. (As an aside, it sounds like *both* of you think that the kinds of changes you personally can make are just a drop in the bucket -- that's the first mindset that has to change, because when the budget feels too tight, every penny counts). And for the love of Pete, start praising her for her efforts - catch her doing something right, and let her know you appreciate her sacrifices for the good of the team.
I know it sounds like I'm being hard on you -- I'm actually on your side here; being the sole breadwinner and working so hard for such little savings wouldn't be tolerable for me at all. But it just jumps off the page at me that you are approaching her as if you are The Decider, and that therefore your job is just to persuade her to your way of thinking, and if she won't come around, that is her problem. And that will get you nowhere fast -- you need to treat her as an equal partner with an equal voice in your *joint* goals. Start by trying to see things her way, approaching her with empathy and understanding and sharing her frustrations. If she grew up with maids and a SAHM and new clothes and all the trappings, you are asking her to live a life that she never expected and maybe doesn't find so compelling now that she's actually living it every day. So come together and approach this as a team, showing her that you are personally willing to try new approaches and change things up until you find something that makes you both happy. Because any life where one of you is not happy is not acceptable, period.
Laura with her usual amazing insight. Great post.
I'll add my own anecdotal experience FWIW.
First and foremost, you need to approach this as a TEAM. All of your posts are littered with "I do this" and "she does that" and "I wanted this" and "she buys that" and "I sacrifice by doing this" and "she still wants this." You each seem to have your own visions of what is ideal and they seem to be totally independent of one another. Seriously, you guys are married--you're a team!
When I first stumbled upon early retirement, I was eager to slash so much from our budget. To put it mildly, I completely overwhelmed my fiancee, and we made almost no progress in the first year. For instance, she loves her Toyota Rav4, and I mentioned selling it all the time (payment is $371). But that was her first big purchase as an adult, and she needs it for her job (she is a home health speech therapist). I approached this as "me me me" rather than see it from her point of view. She's kept it, and now she is about a year away from owning it free and clear.
I then approached things as a team exercise--how doing things would be of mutual benefit. Instead of "you don't need this," it's, "Hey, cutting cable will save $90 per month, which we can save for our wedding. What do you think?" And we did this all the time by talking while taking walks in our local park. No joke, we've probably walked 200-300 miles while talking about financial goals/things we want to try.
Here are things we've accomplished in the past two years:
-Downgraded from DirecTV ($117 per month) to Sling ($20 per month, $40 per month during football season).
-She increased her 401k from 10% of income to almost 20% (put away $11k last year, twice as much as she'd ever done before)! Honestly so freaking proud of her.
-I went from $10k in 401k contributions to being on pace for the full $18k this year
-She pays utilities out of her checking (we are getting married in May). When I write her a check for my half, she deposits it into our joint savings or HSA account.
-She called and lowered her car insurance by about $15/month.
-She is about 15 months from paying off her car, and she is going to keep that thing for as long as it runs (previously used to talk about upgrading, but now I wash it and take care of it for her and she loves her car even more)
-Paid off her biggest federal student loan
-Gone from about $625 in monthly groceries to about $375
-Cancelled our gym memberships ($85/month) and bought an elliptical with cash
In summary, in 2014 we were probably averaging $3,400 in monthly expenses. By 2018 (her car payment and student loans should be paid off), we should be at about $2,200 per month.
Honestly, THIS WAS HARD WORK. Nothing happened overnight. All of this--even the simple things like picking up the phone to call the insurance company--was the product of constant dialogue and me VALUING HER OPINION. And I can tell you that she is loving this because she has felt part of the process.
It sounds like you and your spouse are each imposing things on one another--including emotional baggage--without much productive dialogue and seeing it from each other's point of view.
So my recommendation is for you to entirely reframe how you are approaching this. You need to SHOW HER, not tell her, that doing things will be of mutual benefit because of X, Y, Z.
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Laura33 - Thank you so much for your post, this is what I am looking for - ways for both of us to be happy while keeping our finances in shape.
You highlighted her feelings on how she tries but it's not good enough. I think this is also in her eyes, not mine. I do admit that we used to argue about her spending, but I really feel that for the past year (maybe half a year) I do not talk to her about overspending. I approach her with ideas on how we can cut spending in general. She offers I get new stuff and I say I don't need to spend now. I stop drinking the expensive coffee at home, but still continue to order more for her because she likes it. I try. I fail sometimes in how I word things or my attitude, but as husband and wife, I also feel like we must talk about things that we disagree on and I can't be held to blame every time I say something in the wrong way.
I say I don't agree with why she is feeling this way. I did not say that she's not entitled to those feelings. This is my conflict, I want her to be happy. I want her to feel like the other moms are missing out. That's my goal. But how can this be done if the constant message I'm hearing is that it's not enough?
You say listen to her goals. What do I say if her goal cannot be reached without a change without sounding patronizing? As if I have the idea which can 'save her'? This is not how I want to sound. The current budget scheme we use is her idea. She brought it forward and I agreed right away even though I don't think it's the best.
I also feel as if these long/serious talks are hard to make. I don't say this to put her down, rather because many time when I raise serious topics, I get blocked by her because she's stressed out from the day. I'm always the one who wants to talk.
So let's say we talk, and I listen and she listens and the communication is flowing. At the end of the day this needs to become something we can act on, not just talk about. Acting on something means being committed to it. It means that when you can't buy something, you may feel a pinch, but you then remember why you can't and get over it. You don't dwell on it an keep coming back to how much you are lacking.
The short answer is that you are still thinking of this as being right, as winning an argument, as getting her to admit to a dream so that you can use that to prove why her current spending is preventing you from achieving your goals. There is no way you can win in that world. The best you can do is disengage -- just stop repeating that pattern. My suggestions for starting a new pattern:
1. Assume she is venting unless told otherwise. You vent about the challenges and frustrations of your day, right? I bet most of her complaints are her doing the same thing. She doesn't want to change anything, she isn't asking for solutions -- she just wants to hear, "wow, that's really frustrating, I appreciate how much you are sacrificing for the family."
[BTDT -- when DH and I were just married, I was unhappy with some job stuff, and I'd come home and vent; DH, ever the engineer, wanted to fix it all for me and so would make all these helpful suggestions; and then I'd get more and more annoyed, because I just wanted to vent, and I heard his suggestions as him not trusting me to manage my own job. We ultimately agreed that, when I was in that mood, I'd flag it by saying "I just need to vent," and he'd know to make sympathetic noises and then keep his mouth shut. :-)]
2. Treat her like you know she's got this. She has her budget that you guys agreed on. Assume that if she wants to change something, she will have great ideas or will directly ask for input. It is *not* your job to come up with suggestions or ideas, or to "fix" her unhappiness, so just stop that entirely right now (as you've seen, it just leads to arguments over who is spendier). You married a competent, capable woman who has primary responsibility for your home and kids; your job is just to support her emotionally. I.e., "wow, that sounds tough. So what are you thinking you want to do about that?" Then listen. Literally bite your tongue if necessary.
3. Have non-financial "dream" talks. What I meant by "dreams" was not outcome-oriented -- the point *is* to get the communication flowing, not to lock her in to a specific budgetary commitment. It's not "let's chat about what you really want so you can see how your spending is keeping us from getting there." It's cracking open a bottle of wine and talking about where you want to be in 30 years -- what's your dream life, do you want to travel, do you want a passel of kids, who do you admire, how would you spend your time if money were no object, etc. The point is to have discussions that bring you closer together as a couple and get your head out of the day-to-day drudgery, to remind you why you started on this path together in the first place, and why the long slog is still worth it.
4. Add fun and frivolity. You are right, a series of long, Important talks turns a marriage into drudgery. The reality is that even when you're on a good path, the nitty-gritty of getting there can be a slog a lot of the time, and there are days you feel like you are churning as hard as you can and not making progress and what's the point? The best remedy for that that I know (other than a glass of wine and a big hug) is to think of ways to change it up and put fun back into your life as a couple/family -- going for a walk at sunset, having a picnic dinner with the kids and a Frisbee, trying roller skating or painting or something specifically because you know you will be bad at it, etc. etc. etc. Laughing and enjoying time together is the best remedy I know.
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Here are things we've accomplished in the past two years:
-Downgraded from DirecTV ($117 per month) to Sling ($20 per month, $40 per month during football season).
-She increased her 401k from 10% of income to almost 20% (put away $11k last year, twice as much as she'd ever done before)! Honestly so freaking proud of her.
-I went from $10k in 401k contributions to being on pace for the full $18k this year
-She pays utilities out of her checking (we are getting married in May). When I write her a check for my half, she deposits it into our joint savings or HSA account.
-She called and lowered her car insurance by about $15/month.
-She is about 15 months from paying off her car, and she is going to keep that thing for as long as it runs (previously used to talk about upgrading, but now I wash it and take care of it for her and she loves her car even more)
-Paid off her biggest federal student loan
-Gone from about $625 in monthly groceries to about $375
-Cancelled our gym memberships ($85/month) and bought an elliptical with cash
In summary, in 2014 we were probably averaging $3,400 in monthly expenses. By 2018 (her car payment and student loans should be paid off), we should be at about $2,200 per month.
Honestly, THIS WAS HARD WORK. Nothing happened overnight. All of this--even the simple things like picking up the phone to call the insurance company--was the product of constant dialogue and me VALUING HER OPINION. And I can tell you that she is loving this because she has felt part of the process.
I gotta say, RSM, that is freaking awesome. This is also how DH and I did it and still do it -- he is laughing at my new Aldi's fixation, because he thinks it's unnecessary scrimping, but at heart he appreciates that I am sacrificing Wegman's for the good of the family; and as much as his spendy tendencies still bug me, I appreciate that they are also coming from a good place (wanting to make sure we enjoy ourselves along the way).
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Here are things we've accomplished in the past two years:
-Downgraded from DirecTV ($117 per month) to Sling ($20 per month, $40 per month during football season).
-She increased her 401k from 10% of income to almost 20% (put away $11k last year, twice as much as she'd ever done before)! Honestly so freaking proud of her.
-I went from $10k in 401k contributions to being on pace for the full $18k this year
-She pays utilities out of her checking (we are getting married in May). When I write her a check for my half, she deposits it into our joint savings or HSA account.
-She called and lowered her car insurance by about $15/month.
-She is about 15 months from paying off her car, and she is going to keep that thing for as long as it runs (previously used to talk about upgrading, but now I wash it and take care of it for her and she loves her car even more)
-Paid off her biggest federal student loan
-Gone from about $625 in monthly groceries to about $375
-Cancelled our gym memberships ($85/month) and bought an elliptical with cash
In summary, in 2014 we were probably averaging $3,400 in monthly expenses. By 2018 (her car payment and student loans should be paid off), we should be at about $2,200 per month.
Honestly, THIS WAS HARD WORK. Nothing happened overnight. All of this--even the simple things like picking up the phone to call the insurance company--was the product of constant dialogue and me VALUING HER OPINION. And I can tell you that she is loving this because she has felt part of the process.
I gotta say, RSM, that is freaking awesome. This is also how DH and I did it and still do it -- he is laughing at my new Aldi's fixation, because he thinks it's unnecessary scrimping, but at heart he appreciates that I am sacrificing Wegman's for the good of the family; and as much as his spendy tendencies still bug me, I appreciate that they are also coming from a good place (wanting to make sure we enjoy ourselves along the way).
Laura, I'm super impressed that you're sacrificing Wegman's. We just got ours here (after I grew up shopping there) and it's still such an excitement to me. I know I need to switch to Aldi's at least for somethings, but the nostalgic comfort of Wegman's is addicting.
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What does your wife do while kids are in daycare?
As a sahm myself I know that social circles are very important to sanity, but if they are influencing her to keep up with the joneses maybe she could try to find some new mom friends. Only, of course, if she's interested. It could have a huge effect on her perception of needs if she found some frugal/non wealthy background friends.
I also came here to say I would love to have all the things she has and couldn't imagine what I would do with all my free time if I had a maid and daycare! She's a lucky lady.
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Laura, I'm super impressed that you're sacrificing Wegman's. We just got ours here (after I grew up shopping there) and it's still such an excitement to me. I know I need to switch to Aldi's at least for somethings, but the nostalgic comfort of Wegman's is addicting.
I gotta say, I'm at a month now, and this last weekend was basically white-knuckling it through the withdrawal symptoms. :-) I am going to need to go back soon for some staples that my Aldi's just doesn't carry, and I am sort of dreading the willpower it will require. . . .
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Mountainbug - she cooks, cleans, laundry, gets stuff from the store, goes out every once in a while, meets her family, various other stuff. She's very close to her mom and sister-in-law (both big spenders I must say). This may sound frivolous, but when I get home at the end of the day she's exhausted. I can't force her to let go of some of her errands, or to stop fretting about the next we need.
BTW, the maid comes in once a week to clean the apartment, she's not a nanny who takes care of the kids, cooks, does laundry, etc.
Laura33 - Again, I'm very thankful for your detailed reply.
It seems like your taking this to a pragmatic place where finding a solution is more important than being right.
I assume - maybe I'm wrong - that if she was posting her thoughts instead of me, you would take the same approach.
I get it and am for it, and I agree this is an underlying communication issue which has multiple manifestations. Our financials are one of them.
But as I said, we need to reach something that works, not only makes us feel good. It sounds from your suggestions that we simply need to talk about feelings and goals and that should be enough to set us in the right direction. It will bring us closer. However, that direction must include spending less/earning more. I'm worried that 'waiting' for these changes will put us in a place which is financially unfit, but maybe I'm exaggerating (although I don't think so).
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I would have a talk about if she is sure she really wants to be at home. And reassure her that it is ok, more than ok, to change your mind about these things. Childcare is not evil, and sometimes it's better than staying home with a mom that is not happy at home all day.
I had always thought I wanted to stay home with my children after I had them. But once that time came I changed my mind. I have a fulfilling job that gives me the intellectual stimulation I crave, plus a paycheck that covers all the expenses so I don't have to penny pinch. We found a wonderful nanny to take care of them as babies and then a great (but expensive) preschool that stimulates them after they turned 3. When I'm home I feel like I can give the kids 110% because I've gotten what I need during the day. And we have money to save and also still pay for the extras and do fun family outings.
Maybe she just needs to rethink her choice and see if it is what she really wants.
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BeanCounter - I would support her if this is the case (although I think it's important for the kids to come home to one of their parents, namely, their mom). I'm sure that with some (minor) lifestyle changes, she can work part time and still have time to pick up the kids and have a hot meal ready and whatever else she thinks is important. But this has to come from her otherwise it'll be another thing she feels forced into.
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BeanCounter - I would support her if this is the case (although I think it's important for the kids to come home to one of their parents, namely, their mom). I'm sure that with some (minor) lifestyle changes, she can work part time and still have time to pick up the kids and have a hot meal ready and whatever else she thinks is important. But this has to come from her otherwise it'll be another thing she feels forced into.
hmmm, this doesn't sound very supportive to me. You're basically saying "you can work, but I think this is really important so do it in a way that allows this to happen". That actually ISN'T giving her a lot of choice.
The stay at home parent vs working parents debate is a no win situation. Both have positives and negatives and you have to really look closely at the list each year to see where you fall (and it will change as the kids change and as your care options change and as your job options change etc.)
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Laura33 - Thank you so much for your post, this is what I am looking for - ways for both of us to be happy while keeping our finances in shape.
You highlighted her feelings on how she tries but it's not good enough. I think this is also in her eyes, not mine. I do admit that we used to argue about her spending, but I really feel that for the past year (maybe half a year) I do not talk to her about overspending. I approach her with ideas on how we can cut spending in general. She offers I get new stuff and I say I don't need to spend now. I stop drinking the expensive coffee at home, but still continue to order more for her because she likes it. I try. I fail sometimes in how I word things or my attitude, but as husband and wife, I also feel like we must talk about things that we disagree on and I can't be held to blame every time I say something in the wrong way.
I say I don't agree with why she is feeling this way. I did not say that she's not entitled to those feelings. This is my conflict, I want her to be happy. I want her to feel like the other moms are missing out. That's my goal. But how can this be done if the constant message I'm hearing is that it's not enough?
You say listen to her goals. What do I say if her goal cannot be reached without a change without sounding patronizing? As if I have the idea which can 'save her'? This is not how I want to sound. The current budget scheme we use is her idea. She brought it forward and I agreed right away even though I don't think it's the best.
I also feel as if these long/serious talks are hard to make. I don't say this to put her down, rather because many time when I raise serious topics, I get blocked by her because she's stressed out from the day. I'm always the one who wants to talk.
So let's say we talk, and I listen and she listens and the communication is flowing. At the end of the day this needs to become something we can act on, not just talk about. Acting on something means being committed to it. It means that when you can't buy something, you may feel a pinch, but you then remember why you can't and get over it. You don't dwell on it an keep coming back to how much you are lacking.
The short answer is that you are still thinking of this as being right, as winning an argument, as getting her to admit to a dream so that you can use that to prove why her current spending is preventing you from achieving your goals. There is no way you can win in that world. The best you can do is disengage -- just stop repeating that pattern. My suggestions for starting a new pattern:
1. Assume she is venting unless told otherwise. You vent about the challenges and frustrations of your day, right? I bet most of her complaints are her doing the same thing. She doesn't want to change anything, she isn't asking for solutions -- she just wants to hear, "wow, that's really frustrating, I appreciate how much you are sacrificing for the family."
[BTDT -- when DH and I were just married, I was unhappy with some job stuff, and I'd come home and vent; DH, ever the engineer, wanted to fix it all for me and so would make all these helpful suggestions; and then I'd get more and more annoyed, because I just wanted to vent, and I heard his suggestions as him not trusting me to manage my own job. We ultimately agreed that, when I was in that mood, I'd flag it by saying "I just need to vent," and he'd know to make sympathetic noises and then keep his mouth shut. :-)]
2. Treat her like you know she's got this. She has her budget that you guys agreed on. Assume that if she wants to change something, she will have great ideas or will directly ask for input. It is *not* your job to come up with suggestions or ideas, or to "fix" her unhappiness, so just stop that entirely right now (as you've seen, it just leads to arguments over who is spendier). You married a competent, capable woman who has primary responsibility for your home and kids; your job is just to support her emotionally. I.e., "wow, that sounds tough. So what are you thinking you want to do about that?" Then listen. Literally bite your tongue if necessary.
3. Have non-financial "dream" talks. What I meant by "dreams" was not outcome-oriented -- the point *is* to get the communication flowing, not to lock her in to a specific budgetary commitment. It's not "let's chat about what you really want so you can see how your spending is keeping us from getting there." It's cracking open a bottle of wine and talking about where you want to be in 30 years -- what's your dream life, do you want to travel, do you want a passel of kids, who do you admire, how would you spend your time if money were no object, etc. The point is to have discussions that bring you closer together as a couple and get your head out of the day-to-day drudgery, to remind you why you started on this path together in the first place, and why the long slog is still worth it.
4. Add fun and frivolity. You are right, a series of long, Important talks turns a marriage into drudgery. The reality is that even when you're on a good path, the nitty-gritty of getting there can be a slog a lot of the time, and there are days you feel like you are churning as hard as you can and not making progress and what's the point? The best remedy for that that I know (other than a glass of wine and a big hug) is to think of ways to change it up and put fun back into your life as a couple/family -- going for a walk at sunset, having a picnic dinner with the kids and a Frisbee, trying roller skating or painting or something specifically because you know you will be bad at it, etc. etc. etc. Laughing and enjoying time together is the best remedy I know.
And assuming she is really, really sure she wants to continue staying home right now, I think the above is REALLY good advice. +1
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I'm saying she can work if she wants, and I will support her choice. I know what she wants to do for the kids so I support that as well if it means part time and I'm sure she is capable. It's not staying 'do it my way' it's saying 'i believe you can do it'.
I'm curious why having an opinion of staying at home is considered not supportive if she chose not to? In reality if she chose to work she would not be forced to quit by me.
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I'm saying she can work if she wants, and I will support her choice. I know what she wants to do for the kids so I support that as well if it means part time and I'm sure she is capable. It's not staying 'do it my way' it's saying 'i believe you can do it'.
I'm curious why having an opinion of staying at home is considered not supportive if she chose not to? In reality if she chose to work she would not be forced to quit by me.
I think the issue is you saying that you think it is important for the kids to come home to one of their parents, namely their mum. As long as a responsible adult that they know is at home, does it matter who it is? And why should it be their mum rather than their dad? You are putting quite an expectation on your wife with your view of what is "important".
Is it possible that you are expressing other ideas that put pressure on your wife, without realising that you are doing it? You may be sending out messages that you do not intend, or that are taken by her in ways that you might not have considered.
Your problems are not financial ones, they are communication ones.
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immattdamon - She actually strongly believes in staying at home and raising the kids. I think it's great too, but it comes from her first.
I once mentioned she find a part time job, but that didn't come off well for a couple of reasons.
Villanelle - Thanks for posting an alternate view. I strongly appreciate it.
However I must say that I can counter 99% of what you mention.
Going meatless is something I can do 6 out of 7 days a week. She cooks meat many times a week as it's necessary nutrition in her opinion.
I do not buy lunch at work (we have free meals). My car is a 21 year old Honda I my parents gave me when they got a new car and I've been biking to work for the past months.
I don't go out much at all, definitely not to poker games and I don't drink. I rarely turn on the heater or cooler, regardless of the season.
Regarding the maid - it is her request to have one. I am willing to take care of 100% the cleaning, but she is not willing to allow it. I currently clean and wash up many nights a week. If not, I am washing the kids and putting them to bed. I used to do the laundry, but she didn't like it and constantly nudged about it until I let it go. When I get home I immediately chip in with the chores - cleaning, washing, whatever. I usually don't eat dinner until taking care of these things.
See my comment above about her going back to work.
Sorry, I don't mean to brag at all, I do all this with love and with no problem. But these are the facts.
Yes, she was overwhelmed for the past 2.5-3 years. Having 2 kids a year apart is overwhelming, exhausting and tiring. That's why both are in daycare until noon. In order for her to have a few hours on her own.
I am thinking a lot about a side hustle and so is she. But I don't really have any ideas of what to do.
There are definitely a lot of good details here. Not sure the age of your kids, but having an infant/ toddler is exhausting, nevermind two. I found that I didn't wake up from my "fog" until they were 3.5-4 years old.
I don't know how tight the budget is, but little things really DO add up. The only way I was able to get over that, or around that, back when I really started living on a budget was this: I didn't shop.
Literally, I went without. I had "no spend days" or "no spend weeks". Because *most* things that I'd get at a drug store were really optional. I don't wear makeup, for example. And also - unless we are out of toilet paper or feminine products, it can wait.
Funny that waiting a week to buy something makes you realize that you don't need it. And all those little things take up space. It adds stress to have that much stuff in the house.
I'm not sure what you can do about her attitude. She really needs to learn that you can't tell anything about people from the outside. You don't know their bank account, their mortgage payment, their income, their inheritances, or how much they spent on their last vacation. Or how much their health care premiums costs, for that matter.
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I'm saying she can work if she wants, and I will support her choice. I know what she wants to do for the kids so I support that as well if it means part time and I'm sure she is capable. It's not staying 'do it my way' it's saying 'i believe you can do it'.
I'm curious why having an opinion of staying at home is considered not supportive if she chose not to? In reality if she chose to work she would not be forced to quit by me.
Because you are basically saying "I won't make her quit, but I'll only support her if it is within these parameters".
Also remember that for women, even in 2017, it's still really hard to admit that we are not happy at home. It does feel like some kind of failure as a mother. And if she is happier in the workplace you will have to help her fight that feeling. Because otherwise she'll feel like a failure no matter what.
I hope that makes sense.
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Ah I see, no that was not what I meant to write.
While we both think a parent should be at home, she thinks it should be the mom.
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I found it very stressful when my kids were that age. In truth, I entirely stopped focusing on saving money during that time because the rest of it was stressful enough on it's own. When the kids were a little older we began focusing on saving again. I would recommend letting it go for a year or two. Reducing your savings rate to <10% isn't an okay long-term strategy, but for a year or two, I say it's worth focusing more on sanity and less on saving.
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1- I know Laura already said this but it bears repeating because it's not clear that you absorbed it: Your spouses feelings about a situation aren't something you agree or disagree with. They are her feelings. Who are you to judge her feelings? You may not SHARE her feelings but it is completely inappropriate to disagree with them. If my husband told me he disagreed with my feelings, it would set off an argument for sure.
2- If you bought a bigger than necessary house, you may have inadvertently contributed to this problem. For a SAHP bigger houses mean: -more space to clean, more rooms to furnish, more places to accidentally lose the kid, wealthier neighbors, etc. When we moved, we bought a significantly larger house than we had before, not because it was bigger, but because it met some of our other needs at the time. My job as a SAHP became exponentially more difficult with just the 900 extra square feet. I've seen friends who "upgrade" their houses and then figure, if I have this nice house with granite countertops, why the heck can't I get a manicure/new blouse/Starbucks? I'm wealthier now, right?
3- If sitting down and discussing the budget together causes you to argue, the solution IS NOT to stop sitting down to discuss the budget. You need to figure a way to do this together. I wholeheartedly recommend some couples counseling for you two.
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I am happy for this debate about working moms, but I will be clear - she chooses to be at home. She believes in the value, she states that she doesn't want a career, etc. We happen to agree on this for the most part. She believes in it more than me. To help her fight the feeling as you say would be wrong because she wants to stay home.
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2- If you bought a bigger than necessary house, you may have inadvertently contributed to this problem. For a SAHP bigger houses mean: -more space to clean, more rooms to furnish, more places to accidentally lose the kid, wealthier neighbors, etc. When we moved, we bought a significantly larger house than we had before, not because it was bigger, but because it met some of our other needs at the time. My job as a SAHP became exponentially more difficult with just the 900 extra square feet. I've seen friends who "upgrade" their houses and then figure, if I have this nice house with granite countertops, why the heck can't I get a manicure/new blouse/Starbucks? I'm wealthier now, right?
I think he mentioned they live in an apartment so unless they have a ridiculous apartment this shouldn't be the problem.
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Hm. I was going off this statement.
If there's one thing I did push for in the past couple of years it was when purchasing a house.
There were 2 options, and I chose the 4 bedroom/3 bath instead of the 3 bedroom/2 bath, realizing that we plan to have many kids and a bigger one would suit us for many many years to come.
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LadyMuMu
The apartment size was not so extreme, neither the mortgage. At most $150 a month iirc. We had a maid before too in a much much smaller place. Both apartments were in the same building, so neighbors the same too.
Again, I said I can't relate to why she is feeling this way. Not that she is not allowed to feel this way.
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A couple thoughts, first, our society in general doesn't value the stay at home person. (Not saying its right or even reasonable)
Second, the job of running the household is a very important job.
This seems to be a super unpopular statement to make in society in general. But, if you want to do this mustache thing, you need to run a tight ship. For us, its absolute worth it for my DW not to be working full time to have time to do a lot more of this home stuff. If she didn't we would be spending a lot more and actually a lot less financially independent.
In a round about way, I suspect my statement is someone in line with posters who suggested depression. This stay at home thing can be a very important job and both parties need to view it that way. Alas ignoring society and embracing this is a hard thing to do.
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I am happy for this debate about working moms, but I will be clear - she chooses to be at home. She believes in the value, she states that she doesn't want a career, etc. We happen to agree on this for the most part. She believes in it more than me. To help her fight the feeling as you say would be wrong because she wants to stay home.
Ok. Good. Then I agree with you. She has to make choices that show that continuing to stay home IS truly the most important thing. And when you make that choice you have to have a budget and stick to it. But I think she has to see this as a mutual decision, not you telling her what to do and what not to do.
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I am happy for this debate about working moms, but I will be clear - she chooses to be at home. She believes in the value, she states that she doesn't want a career, etc. We happen to agree on this for the most part. She believes in it more than me. To help her fight the feeling as you say would be wrong because she wants to stay home.
It is totally understandable that this is a priority for her. I think what is hard for those of us commenting, is reconciling her desire to stay at home while also having child care and a cleaner. Every choice comes with drawbacks and perhaps the biggest drawback of having a one-income family with small children is the need to forego some of the luxuries that two-income families are able to afford. I'm not sure what that means for you, but I think at some point it will be necessary for your wife to come to terms with that reality. Unless that happens I don't see how you'll be able to find a compromise that works for the two of you in the short-term.
In the long-term, you may just need to accept that this is a period of your life during which you won't have a high savings rate. I sure didn't save a ton, when my kids were very young! That was when I originally got into the idea of FIRE and it was endlessly frustrating to me how little I was able to save during those years. Now, my kids are school-age and the savings are piling up, it's just so much easier. Looking back, I think I was too hard on myself and I actually did a good job of saving simply by not taking on any additional debt and continuously contributing to my retirement funds.
I think there is a chance you are doing better than you think. Posting a case study would help a lot, I encourage you to do it.
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Laura33 - Again, I'm very thankful for your detailed reply.
It seems like your taking this to a pragmatic place where finding a solution is more important than being right.
I assume - maybe I'm wrong - that if she was posting her thoughts instead of me, you would take the same approach.
I get it and am for it, and I agree this is an underlying communication issue which has multiple manifestations. Our financials are one of them.
But as I said, we need to reach something that works, not only makes us feel good. It sounds from your suggestions that we simply need to talk about feelings and goals and that should be enough to set us in the right direction. It will bring us closer. However, that direction must include spending less/earning more. I'm worried that 'waiting' for these changes will put us in a place which is financially unfit, but maybe I'm exaggerating (although I don't think so).
My responses on each bolded item:
1. Yes. Although it's more about realizing that there *is* no objective "right" here, there's just what's right for the two of you.
2. 100%, yes. I know it doesn't feel like it, but if anything, I'd be harder on her than on you. :-) You can't choose to stay home and then complain about lack of money. But I find it less-than-helpful to give advice to people who aren't here and didn't ask for it. :-)
3. See (1) above. You are still assuming you are right and insisting that we provide a direct path to persuade your wife of your rightness within X months. The facts that you laid out are that you have @10% of net to save + some unspecified savings at work. You see these facts as teetering on the edge of catastrophic failure; meanwhile, your wife sees that exact same budget as teetering on the edge of unacceptable deprivation. So this can go two ways: you can find a way to come together and compromise; or you can both double down on your current positions and end up divorced. And the fastest way to get to Option B is to keep pushing her to change more/faster -- the more you push, the more she will dig in and counter-attack.
Frankly, right now, your wife *does* just need to "feel good" (she is just looking in the wrong places for that). She in particular has gone through major, life-altering changes (childbirth x 2, not working, major budget cutbacks, big new house, etc.); and now her interactions with you seem to be focused on how she needs to change even more. Your job is to demonstrate how she can feel good *with you* -- that she doesn't need [insert material item here] to be happy, that she can/should take pride in how she is managing your household, that you guys have this awesome connection and have fun together -- and, above all else, that you have her back no matter what. It's the carrot vs. the stick. And it's about showing, not telling -- fewer lectures, more "wow, that was a fantastic dinner" and "hey, let's go have a picnic."
So set aside the budget talks for now -- give yourself 3 months, 6 months, where you just drop entirely the notion that she needs to cut back more. Spend that time focusing on the non-financial stuff -- noticing her hard work, praising her efforts, learning to listen, to connect, to just have some freaking fun. Life is a marathon, not a sprint. You guys are in the most-wonderful-but-suckiest, hardest, most expensive part right now. Cut yourselves some slack to get through the worst of it.
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I think reverse engineering is always a great way to look at things.
Have the two of you agreed on an end goal? For example... "when the kids graduate from high school/college/when we reach age x we want to be FIRED, and we want our life at that time to look like _______".
Then you can get excited about that common goal and figure out how much money it'd take to make that happen.
Then you work backwards and figure out how much money you have to stache away each year to likely reach that number.
Then you start designing a life that will allow you to save that amount.
Then, when you start "cutting" this and that, you will realize that you aren't sacrificing or "cutting" anything. What you are doing is trading those things for a near future that rocks even more!!!
I know that real life is a lot more complicated than that, but the framework of thinking like that has huge benefits IMO. I feel like both of you want to save and know it's important, but you don't have a clear picture of the finish line. That vagueness makes it hard to save, because you don't even know what you are trading your current luxuries for.
Just a thought. Either way, you seem like a very loving and hard working family, and I wish you the best!!!
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Is the subtext here that your wife thinks you should be earning more money? If she comes from money, she may have expectations that you will be earning enough to satisfy all her wants and also save substantial amounts. Have y'all had a frank conversation about your own earning power, and likely career path going forward? Do you have prospects for increasing your income?
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If you're Christian, or willing to tolerate some christian-ness, I might recommend going through Financial peace University.
I know Dave Ramsey gets a bad rap on some parts of this forum (mainly for his sh*t investing advice), but frankly, he's one of the best at spousal communication about money and he's very good at helping couples talk through what their goals with money truly are. FPU is more than worth the money if you're struggling at getting on the same page, which it sounds like you are.
His biggest emphasis for spouses is to have a budget meeting EVERY WEEK with one another. On paper. Talk to one another about the budget, talk about your values & priorities for your money.
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I am a stay at home mom (who works from home occasionally during naptimes) and I gotta say…childcare AND a maid is pretty freakin luxurious. I too am confused by her feelings of deprivation.
Does your wife have a mental illness? I know that seems out of left field, but while being a parent is challenging, she should have plenty of time to cook/run errands/ manage things if she gets every morning free and has a maid do most of the housework. If she is still feeling overwhelmed by responsibilities even with these major helps, she might be struggling with depression or some other disorder that makes one disorganized, stressed, fatigued, etc. Your remarks about deprivation, not feeling good enough, and general unhappiness coupled with her need for extensive help to manage a very typical (although exhausting) stay at home mom life suggests to me that she might actually have an underlying issue that is making it harder for her to cope. If she is battling untreated depression, then in actuality she may genuinely require intensive help to function semi-normally.
What does your wife do with her free time every day? Do you know? That might also give you some insight into her feelings/mental health.
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Laura33 - I am willing to try this approach, although I have dropped the budget/spending/savings talks for a good amount of months now. I don't even think I mention things anymore. Ever since she decided to take an amount which she decides how to spend, I don't say a word - even though there are more than 1 or 2 things which are absurd in my eyes. It's her decision and I don't get involved.
The problem is that she doesn't see these decisions as empowering. She sees every thing she chooses as something else she needs to give up on. She sees this everyday (her words). And even then, at the end of the day she sees no fruits from her effort. It is frustrating and lowers her motivation. Today she asked to see what we saved past January and got upset it was so low and how she tries so hard with nothing to show. I told her it's a phase and we have lots of expenses with the kids and such. I told her how we are in a good position with our equity, savings, etc. and that we are in the right direction. She said that I am looking long-term, but she has to make decisions daily on what to buy and what not to buy. On how if she buys 1 more thing for the kids she can't buy something else. So basically this daily struggle is wearing her out.
And about your second point, I do not care if you are hard on me, I am here to make this work. I really wish there was some third party we both could talk to openly about this stuff without having to make it a counseling issue (not that I have anything wrong with counseling, we've been there before for other issues because I wanted to air stuff out).
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I really wish there was some third party we both could talk to openly about this stuff without having to make it a counseling issue (not that I have anything wrong with counseling, we've been there before for other issues because I wanted to air stuff out).
This is exactly why FPU would be good - you can talk to other people working on these issues without it being seen as "counseling".
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little_brown_dog - I just think that's what she saw growing up.
I don't know about depression and really can't attest to it.
I once told her I was concerned about Postpartum, but she laughed it off.
It may seem pretty freakin luxurious, but presenting that to her, even in the most delicate way is enough to cause a real argument about how I care only about money and not about her situation. This happened when only our eldest was in daycare.
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Is the subtext here that your wife thinks you should be earning more money? If she comes from money, she may have expectations that you will be earning enough to satisfy all her wants and also save substantial amounts. Have y'all had a frank conversation about your own earning power, and likely career path going forward? Do you have prospects for increasing your income?
I think this may be the case here. This is not meant to be an attack on the OP, but it seems that your wife wants to live the $$$$ lifestyle, while you only have $$. When you have $$$$, you can hire maids and childcare and purchase more items. My wife also wants the $$$$ lifestyle, but she works full-time.
Assuming that she is not depressed, or you are not trying to make rapid changes to the status quo; I see the problem being her unrealistic expectations.
Perhaps the problem will solve itself once the kids are school age and you can pocket the childcare costs.
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NathanP - I am hesitant to say this the issue, because I don't hear her complaining I don't make enough. I'm actually working for one of the highest paying companies in the country, in one of the highest paying fields. It's not unlimited amounts of cash, but still high for the market. Add all the other stuff like bonuses, equity, etc. I don't see how I can make so much more without adding a side hustle. And it's gonna have to be a pretty good hustle to make $$ into $$$$.
I'm hopeful once they go to school, costs will go down, but as I see there is always a place to spend more.
So she may be expecting this cost to go away and have more free money to pay for other stuff.
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Sounds like she doesn't actually want to be a SAHM, but she thinks she "should" do it. So these kids go to daycare all morning and then nap in the afternoon? How many hours is she actually SAHM-ing a day? 1 between lunch and nap, and another couple until you get home? Seems odd to me. I also agree that she may have depression and require the daycare, maid, etc to cope.
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NathanP - I am hesitant to say this the issue, because I don't hear her complaining I don't make enough. I'm actually working for one of the highest paying companies in the country, in one of the highest paying fields. It's not unlimited amounts of cash, but still high for the market. Add all the other stuff like bonuses, equity, etc. I don't see how I can make so much more without adding a side hustle. And it's gonna have to be a pretty good hustle to make $$ into $$$$.
I'm hopeful once they go to school, costs will go down, but as I see there is always a place to spend more.
So she may be expecting this cost to go away and have more free money to pay for other stuff.
If you're looking for advice on where to cut back, specific numbers for income and expenses would be really helpful. Checking out the case study template would help a lot.
But I'll reiterate: it does not sound like this is a math problem. This sounds like this is a communication/expectations problem. The only solution to that is to talk, sit down with the numbers (weekly preferable) and work together on coming up with solutions based on your shared goals and values. This isn't black & white, there's no "right" - there's just continual improvement and working together.
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I was reading through this thread again and thought of the same thing. Maybe deep down she'd prefer to do something else rather than stay at home, but she thinks she has to stay home. Her mom did it. She believes in the value of being home. So maybe it's a must. But maybe it doesn't fit her. Maybe she can't even put her finger on it herself.
I doubt this is right, but maybe.
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I was reading through this thread again and thought of the same thing. Maybe deep down she'd prefer to do something else rather than stay at home, but she thinks she has to stay home. Her mom did it. She believes in the value of being home. So maybe it's a must. But maybe it doesn't fit her. Maybe she can't even put her finger on it herself.
I doubt this is right, but maybe.
FWIW, I suspect you may be on to something here. And maybe she's afraid to admit it, given that you both agreed how important it was to have a parent at home. Maybe find a way to let her know it's ok if she has changed her mind or if what she thought she wanted just doesn't suit.
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I was reading through this thread again and thought of the same thing. Maybe deep down she'd prefer to do something else rather than stay at home, but she thinks she has to stay home. Her mom did it. She believes in the value of being home. So maybe it's a must. But maybe it doesn't fit her. Maybe she can't even put her finger on it herself.
I doubt this is right, but maybe.
Suggested reading for her: I know how she does it (https://www.amazon.com/Know-How-She-Does-Successful/dp/0143109723/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487102008&sr=8-1&keywords=i+know+how+she+does+it), and The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle Class Parents are still Going Broke (https://www.amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-Middle-Class-Parents-Still/dp/0465097707/ref=pd_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J6Z1P9VWNEQ32CB89YKT)
You should evaluate why you both think it is important to have a parent at home, and if she's unhappy, ways to get those things while she works (part or full time). Not everyone should be a stay-at-home mom. Which is why so many 1950's housewives were miserable. We're lucky we can make a choice now.
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I was reading through this thread again and thought of the same thing. Maybe deep down she'd prefer to do something else rather than stay at home, but she thinks she has to stay home. Her mom did it. She believes in the value of being home. So maybe it's a must. But maybe it doesn't fit her. Maybe she can't even put her finger on it herself.
I doubt this is right, but maybe.
If this is true, it's important - not just for you and her, but for your kids. Kids will do fine with two working parents as long as they are in high quality childcare. On the other hand, parental depression, or even long-term dissatisfaction, can have an impact on kids' emotional development. Your kids will take you and your wife as their models - so model making thoughtful choices that actually fulfill you, not doing what society/family/whomever tells you that you "should" do. If she really wants to stay at home, she should absolutely do it. But it doesn't sound like she's thriving in this situation.
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little_brown_dog - I just think that's what she saw growing up.
I don't know about depression and really can't attest to it.
I once told her I was concerned about Postpartum, but she laughed it off.
It may seem pretty freakin luxurious, but presenting that to her, even in the most delicate way is enough to cause a real argument about how I care only about money and not about her situation. This happened when only our eldest was in daycare.
My wife went through some hardcore postpartum depression, and has always dealt with severe anxiety and garden-variety depression. She refused to acknowledge the postpartum, and there was literally nothing I could do about it (except make it worse by trying to help). Now she has guilt/anxiety over how she spent her first year of motherhood. I try not to criticize, but I also acknowledge the reality when she brings it up (for the record, we're in a much better place now).
Everything you're describing looks and feels like there's a psychological component here. She may be unaware, or simply unwilling to acknowledge it and seek help. Running a household with two kids in half day care plus a maid shouldn't be overwhelming for someone who's in a good place mentally.
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What's sticking out to me is that your wife is upset that you guys are not saving a lot when she feels like she's making a lot of sacrifices. That seems different than a lot of case studies where the spendier spouse isn't very concerned about savings.
Have you guys talked your goals, both long term and short term? Like, what would she see as a "good" savings rate? Could you start there and work backwards?
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She said that I am looking long-term, but she has to make decisions daily on what to buy and what not to buy. On how if she buys 1 more thing for the kids she can't buy something else. So basically this daily struggle is wearing her out.
The best response to this kind of statement from your wife is generally, "is there something I can do to help with that?"
To me, it sounds like your wife is overwhelmed with the reality of her life, and that perhaps this wasn't a reality she was trained for. This isn't a judgement, and I don't see it as something that needs to be "fixed." It sounds like she is learning and growing, and that this is a hard phase of life for her. It is. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad phase or a phase that you need to change.
What does matter is that it sounds like she is mentally struggling and worn out. Telling her that you really see that she is worn out, and that you are worried about how she is coping and then asking her what she feels would help the situation might help get some perspective on whether she is venting, wants to work, is depressed, or whatever. Tell her that you wonder if her talking to someone might help, or that she can come to you without any judgement anytime to talk about what sorts of things might help her to feel better.
Also, have you told her that you have made a conscious decision and effort to not comment anymore on her spending? She might not have realized this. :) Let her know that you have observed that ti wasn't helping and might have been making things worse, and so you have stopped and are paying attention to all the good work she is doing.
It sounds like you are trying really hard and saying and doing lots of the right things. It's awesome that you are concerned for her happiness and well-being. It might also help to regularly acknowledge that what she is feeling is normal. It's normal to feel overwhelmed and that it takes time for the savings to add up. Another poster here made a fun picture chart where she coloured in a new box everytime they saved x $s--maybe somethng affirming like that might help?
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If the kids are in daycare till noon, how about a part time or work from home job for her spending?
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I was reading through this thread again and thought of the same thing. Maybe deep down she'd prefer to do something else rather than stay at home, but she thinks she has to stay home. Her mom did it. She believes in the value of being home. So maybe it's a must. But maybe it doesn't fit her. Maybe she can't even put her finger on it herself.
I doubt this is right, but maybe.
Having been there myself, I think it's totally possible that she feels this way and is trying really hard not to feel this way. Because you know society says we're not supposed to. We are supposed to be so grateful that we get to stay home with two little kids. But for some of us it is not a good fit. I can't explain exactly why this is. It's a lot of things- I enjoy the intellectual stimulation. I like using my education and earning a pay check. It's easy to feel valuable at work. I feel appreciated for my efforts. I like the routine of work. I like that I can control things. I generally know at work how my day will go, but when I am home with the kids who knows what will happen.
But a couple people very close to me had to sit down and tell me it was okay to want to be at work. And sometimes I still struggle with it because even though I know everyone is happier, I was taught that I'm supposed to be at home being the best damn homemaker I could be.
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But as I said, we need to reach something that works, not only makes us feel good. It sounds from your suggestions that we simply need to talk about feelings and goals and that should be enough to set us in the right direction. It will bring us closer. However, that direction must include spending less/earning more. I'm worried that 'waiting' for these changes will put us in a place which is financially unfit, but maybe I'm exaggerating (although I don't think so).
I think you are exaggerating. You are already, at possibly the highest-expense time in your life, saving 10% of what you make in a high-paying field at a high-paying company. If you could save 50% a few years ago, it seems very likely that you will be able to increase your savings rate once you are done with childcare expenses. I understand what you feel, but your feelings seem to me as inaccurate as your wife's feelings seem to you.
So I agree with those who say that you do not have a money problem, you have a communications/feelings problem. You're both feeling frustrated. If I'm understanding you correctly, your wife's feeling is, "Aaaugh! This week I had to say no to shirts for the kids and a bath toy and a slide and a crockpot and sandals... and all that self-denial didn't translate into noticeable savings! Why even bother?" Your feeling in response sounds like, "Yes! And that's why we have to spend even less!" but I think it would be more productive to think, "Yeah, I agree, it stinks that savings only happen little by little."
The root of the problem is that your wife is hitting the wall of realizing that the way her parents spent money (which she sees as normal) can't be supported on your income. I can empathize with your wife! I grew up thinking "normal" was a house with real wood floors, solid oak doors, and plaster walls, and subscriptions to the symphony and the ballet. It was very, very difficult for me to be reconciled to the fact that my husband and I could only afford gyprock walls and hollow-core doors, and that if we went to the theater or symphony it was only if $5 student rush tickets were available. What was wrong with us?! So I'll offer some thoughts that helped me.
First was accepting that real estate was a whole different ball game for us than for my parents. My parents were in their 40s when they bought their house, with help from my grandmother who came to live with them in her retirement, and it cost about a year of my father's salary. Our house cost three times our income, and when we bought it our parents were still working and paying for their own houses. When I understood that we simply had a lot less of our income available for other spending, it helped me feel less like there was something wrong with us and our situation.
Another was realizing that I was unconsciously comparing apples to oranges. I was remembering my middle-school and high school years, when my father was near the top of his career, and comparing that lifestyle to my husband and me at a time when we were barely out of grad school. When I looked back at photos of my parents at the equivalent stage, early in their marriage, their life was actually a lot less luxurious; I remember being struck by their Christmas decorations, which my mother had made out of construction paper.
Perhaps there are similar or other explanations at play in your case. Perhaps your in-laws were secretly digging themselves deeper into debt every year; perhaps you make way less than her father did; perhaps her parents were spending inherited capital. Would it be feasible to explore some of these ideas with your wife and maybe your in-laws?
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Taking a bit of a departure from some of the other (good) commenters above. I think it might be useful for her to get more involved in the finances. I don't think this "I take x amount of budget for household and fun spending and you deal with all the other stuff" process is working. I agree with above posters who recommend Financial Peace University which can really help her get up to speed on where you are at financially and how to communicate about money. It also talks about marketing tricks which start from childhood to make you feel like you need more.
But most importantly, I think you guys need to dive in together and talk through your budget each month or each pay period. Right now it sounds like you wait until the end of the month and then find out how much you can put in savings. My recommendation is that your wife takes the pen, writes your takehome income for the next month at the top of a sheet of paper, lists your fixed monthly line items and expenses, lists your variable line items, and lists any sinking funds or other savings you're working on. Then you two work through each monthly variable expense and talk about how much you need in it that month. Figure out what birthday/wedding gifts you will need, think about if you need new shoes or a coat or other clothing item, figure out if you need extra in the gas budget that month because of a planned visit or if you want extra in groceries because you're hosting a super bowl party. Once you've filled in all your non-savings expenses, total it up and see what you have left. Then you can decide together how to allocate your savings.
I agree with an above poster who talked about laying out together a savings goal for the year. Maybe it's 7% into your 401k and 12k after-tax in a roth for both of you. Then each budget meeting you can try and figure out how to reach that goal.
I think your wife sounds frustrated because even if she does well with all the daily household purchasing decisions (which feel like a big sacrifice to her) then she is still only coming out with $50-100 in savings (hypothetically). But if she feels like she is participating in all of the decisions, then she can feel more ownership over the total amount saved, not just the part she is able to not spend out of her allotment. Also, when you make all your spending decisions at the budget meeting, it could take away the stress she's feeling with daily decisions. You budgeted for $20 in kid's clothes that month, so you can spend that amount without feeling guilty. Once it's gone, you just wait until the next budget to assess if it met the need.
I would look to have this conversation on a weekend, maybe when grandparents can watch the kiddos and give you guys some time alone. And I think you should come to it without any preconceived notions. Which is really hard from my experience. But you should try and frame it as a new approach to working together on finances because you feel like the communication hasn't been great and you want to approach it as a team to figure out a less stressful and more empowering way of talking about and spending money.
I don't think your wife will ever realize the financial impact of the half day daycare and regular maid visits until she is more involved in the full budget process. Maybe she will decide those things are still worth keeping, but maybe she'll see that cutting the maid could give her more money for some of the "wants" that she feels she is missing out on. Maybe she'll decide that $100/month in college funds for the kids is a higher priority for her than more toys. Maybe seeing your networth grow and tracking your accounts would help her see the long term impact of big expenses in the budget.
This is the action step I think you should be looking for. Do what the other posters said and listen more and have some "dream future" conversations. Then when you guys know how much you want to save or what you want your life to look like and can take that with you into each budget meeting.
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She could be depressed like others have suggested. Is it possible she is spoiled and lazy? Having a maid and having your children in childcare while at the same time complaining about money seems really illogical to me.
I've been at home with kids that age, while my husband worked and you better beleive we didn't have a maid, or childcare, and sometimes not even money for gas to go to the library for free. So while mental illness could certainly play a part, I also wonder if she is lazy and/or spoiled? Not much you can do with that one...
And like others have pointed out, she actually isn't a SAHM, her children spend most of their waking day in childcare, then come home take a nap and play with you for a few hours before bed.
Could she work while they are in childcare?
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As someone suffering from serious depression and anxiety, reading through this thread...
I'd ask if deep down, your wife is doing the SAHM thing because that is what she thinks she should be doing. I would also question whether she really wants to have lots of kids and be a full time mother... because she feels that this is what a woman is supposed to do, because this is what she sees from her own family experience, and it is what you and she decided on. And this is not something she should just blurt out "of course that's what I want!" because she can absolutely think that on the surface, but without some serious, meditative thought on the current state of her life, her unhappiness and why exactly she is unhappy (hint: it's not about money) then she's possibly lying to herself more than anything. We've all likely done this, and it's nothing to be ashamed about either.
The general feeling I get is that she is doing things that are expected of her, but what is missing for her is that she wants to be an independent, free woman, and her wants/needs aren't being met by being a SAH parent, and she is feeling trapped into a life she planned for (wife/mother), but isn't as fulfilling as she expected, so there is panic about the future, sadness/shame about being so disappointed in herself for not being happy with her decision, and a need to fix it somewhat by moving blame to others (or lack of material things) so she doesn't feel so responsible for her decision.
None of this is meant to sound like I'm judging her. It is absolutely not something she can help if she is feeling this way. She's actually trying to power through her feelings and hold the line, and I think that is very noble of her. The thing is, it likely is also making her feel even more guilty and sad trying to stay the course and scrambling to find outside things to fix the situation.
This was very good. I am not a SAHM and never wanted to be. But choosing to be a working parent is hard, even when you know it's right.
Because I am being judged. Coworkers, neighbors, friends. There are VERY few people who don't judge me at all. Some of them don't even mean it.
"You mean you are still working?"
"Why can't you make a 10 am musical performance?"
"You worked from home on a holiday?"
I imagine if she was raised a certain way, it's even harder when she's being judged by family. My mother used to judge my SIL. She would say things like "Your brother is SO GOOD with those girls. He does so much with them. Takes care of them, gives baths, etc., comes and visits. SIL does so little, always working, I never see her." News flash mom: 1. Brother works 32 hours a week and makes less than half what his wife does. 2. Brother is off work by noon every day. 3. Brother comes to visit you because he likes a little help. 4. SIL goes to HER MOM'S house when she is off.
My very own mother would say, ad nauseum, that "all she ever wanted was to be a stay at home mom". She had a baby out of wedlock. Married my dad, a widower with kids. It was not a good marriage. He was not a nice guy. Lived with the Catholic guilt of disappointing her parents (who wanted her to be a nun). Had to live on a pretty tight budget being married to my dad and it was HARD. Went back to work when I was 11, part time.
Always said she hated working. Divorced my dad, went full time. As much as she said she hated it (worked hard, boss was a tool, got paid less than half what he did), I had NEVER seen her MORE HAPPY than when we were living in that trailer and she didn't have any responsibilities to anybody but herself, and me ( and I was 16). Even though she felt guilty that my brother stayed with dad.
Remarried. Wonderful guy but she "didn't love him when she married him". Quit work eventually. Went into a deep deep depression, STILL INSISTING that all she wanted was to be a wife. But here's the thing. She was on a budget again. An unnecessarily tight budget for the income, but she married a guy who was in his 40s and had always spent what he wanted. So SHE had to figure out how to live to HIS budget.
Her desire to be "a wife and mother" warred with the difficulty of living on a budget when *she* wasn't bringing in any money. And thus felt that she didn't have as much say. Now, with all of that and the Catholic guilt, it was a long spiral into depression and alcoholism, which killed her. I honestly think a part time job, where she just clocked in and out and worked, would have been best. She was offered one, but stressed about taking vacation. It was very sad.
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I think you married a princess. She sold you the idea of her not working as it is important to have a SAHM. But in reality she just wants to not work and socialize like other moms or maybe her mom and sister. This is just the picture i get from what you wrote. If she can get away with it, she'd probably have the kids in full day care so she doesn't get so "exhausted".
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But most importantly, I think you guys need to dive in together and talk through your budget each month or each pay period. Right now it sounds like you wait until the end of the month and then find out how much you can put in savings. My recommendation is that your wife takes the pen, writes your takehome income for the next month at the top of a sheet of paper, lists your fixed monthly line items and expenses, lists your variable line items, and lists any sinking funds or other savings you're working on. Then you two work through each monthly variable expense and talk about how much you need in it that month. Figure out what birthday/wedding gifts you will need, think about if you need new shoes or a coat or other clothing item, figure out if you need extra in the gas budget that month because of a planned visit or if you want extra in groceries because you're hosting a super bowl party. Once you've filled in all your non-savings expenses, total it up and see what you have left. Then you can decide together how to allocate your savings.
I agree with an above poster who talked about laying out together a savings goal for the year. Maybe it's 7% into your 401k and 12k after-tax in a roth for both of you. Then each budget meeting you can try and figure out how to reach that goal.
I think your wife sounds frustrated because even if she does well with all the daily household purchasing decisions (which feel like a big sacrifice to her) then she is still only coming out with $50-100 in savings (hypothetically). But if she feels like she is participating in all of the decisions, then she can feel more ownership over the total amount saved, not just the part she is able to not spend out of her allotment. Also, when you make all your spending decisions at the budget meeting, it could take away the stress she's feeling with daily decisions. You budgeted for $20 in kid's clothes that month, so you can spend that amount without feeling guilty. Once it's gone, you just wait until the next budget to assess if it met the need.
I would look to have this conversation on a weekend, maybe when grandparents can watch the kiddos and give you guys some time alone. And I think you should come to it without any preconceived notions. Which is really hard from my experience. But you should try and frame it as a new approach to working together on finances because you feel like the communication hasn't been great and you want to approach it as a team to figure out a less stressful and more empowering way of talking about and spending money.
I don't think your wife will ever realize the financial impact of the half day daycare and regular maid visits until she is more involved in the full budget process. Maybe she will decide those things are still worth keeping, but maybe she'll see that cutting the maid could give her more money for some of the "wants" that she feels she is missing out on. Maybe she'll decide that $100/month in college funds for the kids is a higher priority for her than more toys. Maybe seeing your networth grow and tracking your accounts would help her see the long term impact of big expenses in the budget.
This is the action step I think you should be looking for. Do what the other posters said and listen more and have some "dream future" conversations. Then when you guys know how much you want to save or what you want your life to look like and can take that with you into each budget meeting.
This is a fabulous insight. When she asks at the end of the month how much you've saved, I hope to god you're telling her all of the retirement contributions + the $100 or so she's saving from her allotment.
And if she is the one to work through the WHOLE budget, with pen in hand, she'll see that she's not really penny-pinching, she's choosing to spend her pennies on maids and daycare.
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What are your financial goals? Did you set them together? Does she want to live a low-consumption lifestyle to allow for early retirement, or does she want an average consumption oriented lifestyle?
To me, it takes a certain amount of dedication to WANT to swim upstream and prioritize savings over consumption, and it just doesn't sound like she's exactly on board. It's not common here, but IRL I know a LOT of people who feel like they work hard and therefore should be able to spend freely. She also may want to save more in theory, but not understand on an intuitive level the sacrifices involved it actually saving.
My wife and I both work, and have a small child and another on the way. I manage our money and would prefer a more mustachian lifestyle, she is more in favor of a balance of savings and spending. Her preferences are not the same as mine, but I respect them even though they mean that at least at the moment, serious early retirement is not in our future.
However, we do set goals together, and she is aware of what sacrifices she is willing to make for the financial bottom line (old car, smaller house, less eating out) and which ones she is not (vacations, cleaning lady). We didn't go into marriage with FIRE as a goal, and I don't feel like I can switch our family agenda to extreme mustachianism without having her on board too, so we compromise.
One of the ways we compromise is that I am in charge of setting spending in areas it is important to me to cut back on. So I buy all the toys and clothes because I am willing to figure out ways to economize and she'd prefer to just buy whatever. But she also doesn't get ENJOYMENT out of buying clothes and toys for our daughter, which might be the case for your wife. We bought all used baby gear, but I was the one taking the bus around the city picking up baby bathtubs, not her.
I don't know, I'm just not getting the same vibe as many people seem to be reading into your posts. Sure, a SAHM with half day childcare and a housekeeper is ridiculously spendy by mustachian standards, and not having those things in the budget would help your bottom line much more than some of the smaller budget categories. However, it does sound like she is trying in many areas, just not very effectively.
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The idea that you have a stay at home spouse, pay for daycare, *and* have a maid(when you live in an apartment?) seems crazy to me. I told my wife when we had our daughter that I would support whatever decision she made(go back to work/stay at home), but it was implied, at least in my mind, that staying home meant taking care of the child and doing other traditional "homemaker" duties. If she would have suggested she stay home while the kid goes to daycare I would have been skeptical. If she added a maid to the mix I would have scoffed at the idea, even if we could afford it.
What is she doing all day if she is not watching the kids and not cleaning the house? I get what other people are saying about making a budget and keeping you both involved, but sometimes one person is being ridiculous and it needs to be stated that such behavior is not acceptable. Having one spouse work all day while the other lounges around is not an equal division of labor, regardless of the gender of each role.
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Where is the case study?
OP, do you live in a HCOL city? How much did you pay for your 4-bedroom apartment? What is your annual gross with bonus?
If you make $1million+, 10% is still 100k+, which is nothing to sneeze at. If your wife was raise in a very wealthy family, 100k may be chump change to her.
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I'm sorry, but I am amazed at how his wife is a SAHM, has daily childcare and a maid and people here are defending her when she feels like she has nothing? If she wants to be a SAHM and have her husband be the sole provider that is fine, but then do it. There is absolute value in the work of a SAHM equal to that of a spouse working full time to provide financially for the family, but not if the SAHM is not doing the work that comes with being a SAHM. In my opinion it's either childcare and a maid and get back to work or be an actual SAHM. How does he need to more considerate of her feelings when she doesn't seem to give his feelings/stress all that much though given that she has to be a SAHM, but also has to have childcare and a maid?
There is no way I would be accepting this kind of arrangement myself and I would insist we be talking to someone about this.
These days with modern technology taking care of the house and children is far easier than it has ever been and your wife who doesn't work can't manage what women for ages have managed?
My mother managed raising 4 kids while working either part time or full time at any point.
I wouldn't be happy with it either, but it sounds like he knew this about her upfront. She's acting as the person she's always been--someone who likes and expects luxury. And suddenly he's unhappy with that, and wants her to change. (Admittedly, it sounds like she may be doing the same--wishing the frugal man she married could suddenly be less frugal.)
OP, you say that she feels you think she's not doing enough, but that those feelings are mostly in her head. There seems to be some major cognitive dissonance there, because you quite clearly do think it's not good enough. That's what you've said over and over in this thread-- the choices she makes to spend result in a situation that isn't good enough. That's pretty much the same as saying she's not doing good enough, isn't it? Perhaps you've stopped actively mentioning it, but it's still a major concern for you (which is why you started this thread), and I think you're fooling yourself if you think that she isn't still very aware of that.
Also, your frustration with the savings probably exacerbates her sense that what she does isn't good enough. Celebrating the $xxx that went in to savings may seem counter when in your mind it's not enough. But that may be backfiring, because she feels like she's sacrificing and trying, and it leads to *only* $xxx. Maybe acknowledging that thanks to the sacrifices you are both making, you have found $xxx in your budget, and that's wonderful! (But you need to truly believe that.) And then later point out that with a few more changes, you could be up to $yyy, and that would be so incredible, and you believe the two of you can do it together because you already accomplished the $xxx budget, which was great, and it motivated you to make Z change, which will add another $AA to the budget!
Again, I don't think you are in the wrong when it comes to what you want and the choices you wish you could make as a family. But I don't think she's in the wrong either, exactly. You've both compromised, but you each married a person from whom you are miles apart when it comes to finances. You both feel like you've given a ton, to the point you are each uncomfortable with how far you've pushed yourself. And yet you are still nowhere near meeting in the middle.
If there's truly nothing you can give up and no way for you to make more money *then you guys are at an impasse. She probably feels just as frustrated and helpless as you do. It's a sucky situation because two people are in a relationship where there's a fundamental incompatibility.
*Did you see my question about tithing? If you do tithe, who is the primary driver behind that? Is that *your* sacred cow, along with the larger house? (And why is your larger house--and tithe if that applies-- an okay extravagance, but her maid and daycare aren't? Do you understand how that probably looks from her perspective?) Can you truly not get a higher paying job, or would it just mean longer hours, more stress, a longer commute, etc.?
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All of these opinions have gotten me more confused.
- Does she want to stay home, or not? She always did and I always thought it normal.
- Do we need preschool? I thought yes for both my wife and the kids. They were each at home with her until over 1.5 years. Understand that the kids are exactly 1 year apart. When my eldest was 1, my wife gave birth to the second. I don't see how this doesn't sound tough to some people here. Just having 2 children who demand constant attention and care is hard. Add to that the fact that they are very little, cannot do stuff on their own, are not the same age (so caring is different for each).
- Do we need a weekly maid? No, but currently this is a necessity for her, and 99% of necessities will always be subjective.
- Is she depressed or similar? I don't know, and how can I get her to talk to a professional?
- Is she spoiled or lazy? Definitely not lazy and I wouldn't say spoiled. But I would say it's hard for her to get through tough stuff (tough being subjective). She definitely grew up with a lot and with a shopping household. Shoppers that love new stuff and have more than I ever think they used. Since we're together, she may be held back by a budget/a conscious/me.
We also have other issues, just like any couple so this just piles on.
I suggested we get together tonight over a bottle of wine to talk.
I will try to just listen. It will be difficult for me, but I will try. I really have a whole lot of things to say on this matter and others.
I am constantly keeping things in because I don't want an argument.
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Eh, i have 0 sympathy for poor sahm with a maid and childcare. You emphasize that she works hard, but please. What is her problem exactly? Is she complaining about your level of income and a lifestyle your income provides? Is this in the background perhaps? That it is not enough? Does she want more? What does she want? Where does she want to be in ten years?
I agree with the previous posters, have a discussion about dreams. It sounds like you have a loving relationship and you support each other. What do you want? How can you get there?
Just out of curiosity, where do you guys live?
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Bee21 - As I wrote in the first post of my thread, I am truly in conflict regarding this.
On one hand I cannot sympathize, on the other I just want her to be happy.
She is not complaining about the level of income.
She used to complain about the level of savings and how I was prioritizing saving over her needs.
She would say that she is paying the price for my required savings amount.
I disagree with that, but as others have said, I try to make this about what is right for us, not what is right and wrong. So I try to compromise.
If I can sum it up in one line - I think she is frustrated that with all she is cutting back on, there is still 'nothing' left.
I don't see eye to eye with her on this because:
1. In my eyes we have it all and much much more
2. I think I just value savings much more than her. Saving for me = spending on what I want. Saving for her = cutting back.
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Yes when the kids were tiny and o e year apart she had a rough go.
Now they are apparently preschool aged (3 and 4? 4 and 5?). No you can't leave them home.for an hour, but it is significantly easier than two babies.
If you had said "my 3 and 4 year old.go to preschool 3 days and it costs 200$/month" no one would say boo. But if you phrase it as them being in childcare with a SAHM, people think it's weird.
You also said you have a maid, which in the US implies a more full e position. Not a once a week housekeeper.
This is why a full case study would be helpful.
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If I can sum it up in one line - I think she is frustrated that with all she is cutting back on, there is still 'nothing' left.
I don't see eye to eye with her on this because:
1. In my eyes we have it all and much much more
2. I think I just value savings much more than her. Saving for me = spending on what I want. Saving for her = cutting back.
You keep mentioning these things she keeps cutting back on but there is still daycare and maid. So what exactly is she cutting back on? Not getting her hair and nails done weekly, not shopping freely, what is it? If she feels she is sacrificing so much even though the daycare and maid are still in there and still complaining, she really is complaining that you dont make enough, just not in those words. She needs a reality check.
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MayDay - thanks for clarifying I will post a case study, however that will take me more time to do.
For now:
The kids are aged 2.8 & 1.8.
They are in a preschool/daycare/kindergarten 6 days a week until 12:30-1:00pm. This costs ~$1000 a month for both. This is cheaper than pretty much any other options (besides not going). Believe me we checked other places the minimum cost around here is $1300. They do not have an option to pay less for less days.
We have a housekeeper coming in once a week. She does not cook, launder or take care of the kids. She costs ~$250 a month.
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I found it very stressful when my kids were that age. In truth, I entirely stopped focusing on saving money during that time because the rest of it was stressful enough on it's own. When the kids were a little older we began focusing on saving again. I would recommend letting it go for a year or two. Reducing your savings rate to <10% isn't an okay long-term strategy, but for a year or two, I say it's worth focusing more on sanity and less on saving.
Wss. 2 toddlers are intense. Shopping for her may = relaxation. Not supporting it, just trying to see it from her point of view. Sometimes just empathising is what's needed...it can be mind numbing spending all day trying to get jobs done while minding toddlers who just undo all your hard work in the blink of an eye. The good news is it passes. Go into survival mode for the next year or so, it will get better. You will both get through this!
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They come home at around 1. Realistically kids at that age will take a nap for a couple of hours, do theyvtake the naps at daycare or when they come home? If it is when they come home, she is really only dealing with 2 toddlers for a few hours before you are home and take over. Is that really considered being a SAHM? It doesn't sound like she really wants to be a SAHM.
I am not from Israel but from a country from that side of the world. I know the type of family your wife was raised in (from your posts). She is accustomed to a certain life style and that exceeds your income. She didn't marry into money which is what she probably should have done because that is what she is used to. she is not right or wrong for wanting daycare and maid even though she is not working, it is what she has seen and what she sees as normal. This is an income problem that may be pvercome through communication but i doubt it. It is what it is.
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I'm sorry - but I think your wife is just outright and downright spoiled and lazy. She has childcare half the day for 6 days a week. What is she doing during that time? That is plenty of time to exercise, grocery shop, clean the house, etc. Then laundry can be done while watching kids in the afternoon. MOST people in this country do not have a SAHM with daycare and a cleaning lady. Does your wife have some kind of physical or mental impairment that keeps her from doing what most women with 2 children do day in and day out? Billions of women do it and have done it. In short - what the heck is wrong with her?
I think her complaint is with your income. You married a spoiled rotten princess and she wants more, more, more. You are working long hours and then coming home and doing chores and taking care of the children. I don't know how you deal with a spoiled rotten brat except to gradually over time expect them to be more self-reliant.
Tell her if she wants more spending money to work while the kids are in daycare. That should solve the problem. She is part of two people that chose to have kids. That is a lot of work and responsibility that she doesn't seem to want after the fact. I wouldn't have another child with her under any circumstances.
I am a woman that loves her husband very, very much. I would never put this type of pressure on him for any reason under any circumstances. I feel for you. I also think that there is no way you can do enough to satisfy her.
Are you in the US? I live in a very affluent area and I worked when the kids were little. None of the SAHMs around us had daycare for their babies but almost all had a once a week cleaning person. I think the combination of both is just unreal. And those around us had between 3-6 kids.
Finally - I fail to see where she is "cutting back" on anything. Really. Suggest cutting back on the daycare and let her have all of that money to spend. Maybe that will help. Otherwise - I really don't have anything in mind except to get a divorce attorney on retainer.
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Your wife sounds like a spoiled brat.
She seems to live in a fantasy world where money should magically appear out of nowhere; unfortunately it doesn't, and therefore you have to balance you're budget.
She isn't pulling her fair share of the weight either. If she is a SAHM, then there should be no daycare or maid; that's why she's a SAHM!!!
The only things you can do that will actually work are things that show your wife that she fundamentally understand how money works, and convince her of what reality is. This could be a series of discussions with her about how to balance checkbooks; it could be an intervention with friends and family; it could be a short series of visits with a counselor (just a few, because it is expensive). But what you need is for her to be onboard with you in terms of how finances work. If she retains her incorrect viewpoint that she 'deserves' to spend money which you don't have, then things will only get worse.
You could also try directing her to this thread, but she may go postal when she sees talking about how much of a spoiled brat she is
Hi All,
I really could use some help here.
My wife is unhappy about our finances, but I just can't relate to her feelings. I hate to see her unhappy, but don't agree with why she's feeling that way.
Some background.
We have 2 kids (ages 2 & 3).
1 income from my job.
Since the kids were born we both naturally decided she stay at home.
My income covers all our expenses - mortgage, utilities, daycare for both kids (until noon), food, etc.
Our mortgage, utilities and daycare take up more than 50% of our income.
Not much is left to save from our take home pay (at most 10% now, compared to a few years ago at about 50% if I recall).
I do have savings through work.
She's trying really hard to cut down on spending. We decided on a weekly amount that should cover groceries, maid, clothing, baby care, and other stuff that's under her 'responsibility'.
At the end of the month, she wants to see results from all her hard work (i.e. more money saved), but that doesn't really happen.
When I look at the numbers, I see how small purchases add up, how we buy stuff we don't need and how we can easily cut out spending. I'm even willing to forgo some luxuries (e.g. the maid) in order to save more.
But from her point of view she is constantly giving up on stuff she needs. She feels stretched way past then what she can handle and there is absolutely no way to give up on the maid.
She's upset that if she buys one thing at the pharmacy or one new shirt, then she can't buy anything else that week or month.
She's upset that she can't afford things for herself.
Some of what she wants is, in my opinion, a total waste of money. In her opinion they are necessities.
In my opinion we have way to much clothing and toys for the kids. To her, we are lucky the grandparents are buying more.
She sees other mothers with new clothes, jewelry, makeup, etc. and gets upset because this winter her mom bought her new clothes instead of her buying herself. It makes no sense to me. Half those mother work, the other half also get stuff from their parents. Who knows what kind of debt they're in. She has jewelry, but doesn't feel like wearing it all the time.
She realizes she has more than others, but still gets upset that all her cutting back doesn't have any immediate results and this makes it hard to see long term results like retiring comfortably. Heck, I'm more worried about us not saving enough at all.
I don't get it and I don't think rationalizing will help with her feelings. And if I don't sympathize, I come off too strict and not understanding.
So to return to my question, I hate to see her unhappy, but don't agree with why she's feeling that way.
What can I possibly do?
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I was trying to avoid being brash, but these guys are on the $ ^
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The fact that she wanted a smaller house suggests that she may not share your goal of having lots of kids. Are you sure you really know what she wants? And if she only wants two kids, they will be in school soon so you can think of this as a relatively brief stage in your lives.
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MayDay - thanks for clarifying I will post a case study, however that will take me more time to do.
For now:
The kids are aged 2.8 & 1.8.
They are in a preschool/daycare/kindergarten 6 days a week until 12:30-1:00pm. This costs ~$1000 a month for both. This is cheaper than pretty much any other options (besides not going). Believe me we checked other places the minimum cost around here is $1300. They do not have an option to pay less for less days.
We have a housekeeper coming in once a week. She does not cook, launder or take care of the kids. She costs ~$250 a month.
At 2.8 and 1.8 it isn't really preschool or kindergarten, it's just child care. There may be some learning involved, but it isn't school. Also, are you working six days per week? Six days of child care seems odd. The good news is, generally it gets cheaper as the kids get older, so that should gradually improve even if you don't change anything.
But seriously, six half days of child care plus weekly cleaning service is luxurious when you aren't doing paid work.
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Your wife may think it is important to "be at home with her kids", but that's not what she is doing. She just is not working outside the home, she is lunching and "running errands". Sure, it is hard to be at home with 2 toddlers but as (finally) other posters have said, women do this every day without daycare and a weekly maid. I would have loved to have that too, but if that is not the lifestyle you envisioned or can support, you have a problem.
All in all, your wife seems very immature and financially illiterate. As you talk about her, it seems more like a parent/child relationship rather than 2 grown adults. " But I would say it's hard for her to get through tough stuff (tough being subjective). She definitely grew up with a lot and with a shopping household." She sounds exactly like my mother-in-law, who is now 75 and unfortunately more miserable than EVER. My MIL had the weekly cleaning, live-in nanny, country club, fur coats, landscapers and vacations all her life, always trying to live up to the wealth/socialite status she was born into. My FIL should have set her straight long ago but he just wanted to please her and take away her self-manufactured "stress". Now they are retired with serious health problems (him), lost the family business during the recession (due to these health problems), and she is bitter that life did not live up to her expectations and she can't figure out why.
I wouldn't say your wife is lazy, but she is not prioritizing what is really important to be doing with her time in order to create a life for your family. Or she truly doesn't know how to run a house with children.
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What are your kids like? How do they treat your wife? I see parents that get in bad ways with kids that age (I have a 3yo and twin infants) where the parent and kids just undermine and attack each other. This usually seems to come of trying to do whatever the kid wants until the parent just can't anymore. The parent doesn't respect their self and the kids follow the leader.
If the time your kids spend with your wife is a constant power struggle, I see how they ended up in day care six (!) days a week.
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I tried to read through all of the responses...sorry, it got very repetitive after a while.
I would suggest a conversation that has nothing to do with money.
"Honey, I'm really concerned about you. You used to have energy and be excited about our goals, you and i used to communicate and budget together. We had a savings rate we both liked and we were happy."
"What has changed? Not money-wise...what has shifted so that deep down you aren't happy? Is it us? Is it a lack of involvement in work or other meaningful tasks? Did you think things like the maid and the daycare would make you a better person/mother but your concerned they haven't? Do you feel like a failure of a mother? Do you feel like you aren't connecting emotionally with the kids? Do you feel like you aren't connecting emotionally with me? Is there someone (specific or general) out there that you feel you are not measuring up to? Are there expectations that you feel you aren't meeting? Are you running from a fear or anxiety concerning others expectations?"
(Please note that she may not have a specific person she can point to regarding the expectations..more than likely it would be a general 'I'm sure I'm not measuring up to what everyone else out there thinks' even when nobody else has said anything or is even aware of the situation.)
You are concerned with her well-being. If she cannot emotionally determine the root of her dissatisfaction, then she/the situation cannot get better. Its possible the same factors are at play as were before, but with a higher income, it wasn't noticeable. You may consider counseling. Contentment is a sign of peace and happiness -- strong frustration as a response to what you can or cannot have/gain/accomplish is a sign of serious anxiety or depressive issues that keep one from peace and contentment.
These are some of the reasons I only work part time. I literally struggle from the fear of failure everyday...and part time work gives me the excuse of "i'm only part time -- I cannot do it all" while also giving me the down time at home that I need. Not particularly mustachian, but its healthy and wise. If she believes that she is failing as a mother, if she is convinced she is doing something wrong, if she is overwhelmed and exhausted -- and she wasn't like that before -- then there is something emotional going on. Address that first. It may take a year or more with counseling, but you can handle the savings rate afterwards.
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MayDay - thanks for clarifying I will post a case study, however that will take me more time to do.
For now:
The kids are aged 2.8 & 1.8.
They are in a preschool/daycare/kindergarten 6 days a week until 12:30-1:00pm. This costs ~$1000 a month for both. This is cheaper than pretty much any other options (besides not going). Believe me we checked other places the minimum cost around here is $1300. They do not have an option to pay less for less days.
We have a housekeeper coming in once a week. She does not cook, launder or take care of the kids. She costs ~$250 a month.
Sorry but 6 days of childcare till 12.30-1.00 just makes the whole proposition more ridiculous. I thought it was just a 5 days a week Monday through Friday thing and though that was already crazy with a SAHM and a maid coming in once a week to help clean.
Your wife is not a SAHM she is effectively being a trophy wife. Unless the kids take a nap right before daycare end they are likely exhausted after playing with other kids all morning and will be sleeping for a bit after they come home. If this is the case your wife effectively has 0 responsibilities until 2-3 PM 6 days of the week If she gets up at 7-8 AM to take the kids to daycare, I hope she at least does this and it is not you while she sleeps in more, then that is 6-8 hours of time she does whatever she wants to do. Given that a maid comes in to clean once a week she obviously isn't doing much around the house as far as cleaning goes beyond the very basics which takes maybe 1 hour a day if I'm being generous to her.
I know due to societal norms this can be hard to see, but try this as a thought experiment:
Imagine a couple, they decide to have kids. The wife gets pregnant, however she makes more than her husband and her husband says he has always wanted to be there for his kids and play a large role in their upbringing so he will stay home so she can focus on work. The wife understanding that this will reduce their income decides to work more hours to make up for the difference some. This makes her job a little more stressful since she has less downtime each week, but it is worth it since allowing her husband to be with the kids full time will be beneficial for them so she is ok taking on the extra pressure.
Then when they have the kids he says it is so stressful and I need more time and so he wants a maid to help around the house. The wife thinks well I don't quite understand why we need that, but we can afford it and I want my husband to be happy and focused on the kids so she agrees. Then the husband still doesn't have enough time to take care of everything and so we need to put the kids in childcare for 6 days every week freeing up his mornings, though at this point he has almost no responsibilities for most of the days and their kids no longer have the improved quality of life of having the full undivided attention of one of their parents all day anymore and this is reducing the money she is working hard to bring in even more so they have to cut their savings even more. The wife has been working hard 6 day weeks to be able to pay for all this extra stuff and it is making it very hard to make financial progress like they used to because of all these unexpected new expenses.
Then her husband starts complaining that he works so hard and tries to cut costs, but he just feels like she is restricting him, by having to agree to a budget and stick to it and that he just feels guilty. He wants to be able to go out and hang out with his buddies and drink a few beers a few times a week and she knows he has been putting of that new video game he has really wanted, but hasn't been able to get because she has been trying to make sure they save at least some of their income and he is just getting so tired of it.
How do you feel about this husband?
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I am a long time lurker, but this is my first post because I recently read something that I think may be useful to you. I am definitely not an expert, but the blog post below explains how you may be able to feel more satisfied by saving. It sounds like your wife doesn’t want to stop saving, but she doesn’t feel the satisfaction from it that she expects. Maybe try the plan in the blog post below and pair it with the other suggestion of letting her take control of an investment account that is created by all the money she has saved from her own decisions. That way, it’s not about “giving up” something, but it’s about making a choice for a better future.
http://www.budgetsaresexy.com/2017/01/if-you-can-afford-to-spend-it-you-can-afford-to-save-it/
Good luck!
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She sounds spoiled to me. She could easily cut the childcare back to a 2 or 3 day/week half day program (mother's morning out, offered at many churches, very inexpensive).
The culture in my area is what she wants: half day preschool, maid, spending money for shopping, coffees and lunches out, tennis club, etc. This is the norm, and I reject that. She needs poorer friends, and to quit hanging out with spendy pants relatives. I wish she'd come hang out with me - I'd teach her how to home make on a shoe string budget and love it.
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What's needed here isn't financial advice so much as it's therapy.
Your wife's stated goals (to be a SAHM) are at sharp odds with her behavior (kids in daycare half the time, maids, refusal to take the steps to keep the budget in check).
Either she has mental health issues, she's a spoiled brat with unrealistic expectations or she is trying to live a role she finds deeply unfulfilling. Counseling might help her figure that out. Arguing with you endlessly about budget goals isn't going to.
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My daughter is now 4 (almost 5) and I am just seeing the light at the end of the tunnel since motherhood began.
I see a lot of myself in your wife -- being a SAHM is hard -- and the toddler phase is the hardest....
Hold on.
Did you have someone else taking care of your kids 6 DAYS A WEEK?
Did you have a maid come to the house EVERY WEEK?
I'm sorry, but your experience is completely different from the OP's wife.
You can't tell me that being a SAHM is hard when a maid comes to clean the house every week and the kids get dropped off at daycare 6 days a week.
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What's needed here isn't financial advice so much as it's therapy.
Your wife's stated goals (to be a SAHM) are at sharp odds with her behavior (kids in daycare half the time, maids, refusal to take the steps to keep the budget in check).
Either she has mental health issues, she's a spoiled brat with unrealistic expectations or she is trying to live a role she finds deeply unfulfilling. Counseling might help her figure that out. Arguing with you endlessly about budget goals isn't going to.
EJH -
This post sums up your situation perfectly. Please heed this advice!
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My wife has no maid, daycare, has two teenagers, a toddler, and a baby, takes care of the housecleaning and cooking. Most mornings she gets up and cooks my breakfast while I am in the shower to get ready for work. She has a lunch packed for me to take with me (shepherd's pie today, yum!) and dinner on the table with the family when I arrive home. She works out several times a week. She is fit and beautiful (she had a baby a few months ago!). She lately has started "getting ready" (as she calls it) with makeup and hair most days.
She also thanks me frequently for making it possible for her to stay at home with her children. Gasp!
She seems genuinely happy and cannot understand women who go to work and leave the children in daycare.
It would be very difficult for me to give you any advice whatsoever about your wife, because what you are writing is so alien to me. I chuckled when you wrote about the maid and daycare, and I agree with the posters above who say she is a spoiled brat. The money being spent on daycare and the maid, would, when combined with what you are already contributing, max out your retirement accounts.
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I know due to societal norms this can be hard to see, but try this as a thought experiment:
Imagine a couple, they decide to have kids. The wife gets pregnant, however she makes more than her husband and her husband says . . .
How do you feel about this husband?
Great scenario to spark some thought, prognastat. Nobody would give that man any sympathy whatsoever. For society today, there is a different standard when it is a woman staying home.
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I know due to societal norms this can be hard to see, but try this as a thought experiment:
Imagine a couple, they decide to have kids. The wife gets pregnant, however she makes more than her husband and her husband says . . .
How do you feel about this husband?
Great scenario to spark some thought, prognastat. Nobody would give that man any sympathy whatsoever. For society today, there is a different standard when it is a woman staying home.
Exactly, the vast majority of people would have 0 sympathy for that man and would pretty much call him out as being a useless deadbeat. Plenty would even say he is just using his wife for the money and that she should just get rid of him.
Not saying this is the response we should have to women in the same position nor men in this position. However the reality should be somewhere in between. A woman doing this should be criticized more harshly than they are and a man likely should have a little more sympathy than we generally give him.
I doubt if the roles were reversed as many people would be saying that the husband might have some form of depression, which is just as possible as it would be for the OP's wife, and that he needs to be more understanding.
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My daughter is now 4 (almost 5) and I am just seeing the light at the end of the tunnel since motherhood began.
I see a lot of myself in your wife -- being a SAHM is hard -- and the toddler phase is the hardest....
Hold on.
Did you have someone else taking care of your kids 6 DAYS A WEEK?
Did you have a maid come to the house EVERY WEEK?
I'm sorry, but your experience is completely different from the OP's wife.
You can't tell me that being a SAHM is hard when a maid comes to clean the house every week and the kids get dropped off at daycare 6 days a week.
I'm not defending the OP's wife because she says she wants to be a SAHM, but...
While all this help would make it somewhat more appealing, I can honestly say that I would hate being a SAHM even under these conditions. Obviously, I would suck it up if I had to, but having other options is much better. For some people, yes, even for some women, being a SAHM is not a desirable situation.
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I tried to read through all of the responses...sorry, it got very repetitive after a while.
I would suggest a conversation that has nothing to do with money.
"Honey, I'm really concerned about you. You used to have energy and be excited about our goals, you and i used to communicate and budget together. We had a savings rate we both liked and we were happy."
"What has changed? Not money-wise...what has shifted so that deep down you aren't happy? Is it us? Is it a lack of involvement in work or other meaningful tasks? Did you think things like the maid and the daycare would make you a better person/mother but your concerned they haven't? Do you feel like a failure of a mother? Do you feel like you aren't connecting emotionally with the kids? Do you feel like you aren't connecting emotionally with me? Is there someone (specific or general) out there that you feel you are not measuring up to? Are there expectations that you feel you aren't meeting? Are you running from a fear or anxiety concerning others expectations?"
(Please note that she may not have a specific person she can point to regarding the expectations..more than likely it would be a general 'I'm sure I'm not measuring up to what everyone else out there thinks' even when nobody else has said anything or is even aware of the situation.)
You are concerned with her well-being. If she cannot emotionally determine the root of her dissatisfaction, then she/the situation cannot get better. Its possible the same factors are at play as were before, but with a higher income, it wasn't noticeable. You may consider counseling. Contentment is a sign of peace and happiness -- strong frustration as a response to what you can or cannot have/gain/accomplish is a sign of serious anxiety or depressive issues that keep one from peace and contentment.
These are some of the reasons I only work part time. I literally struggle from the fear of failure everyday...and part time work gives me the excuse of "i'm only part time -- I cannot do it all" while also giving me the down time at home that I need. Not particularly mustachian, but its healthy and wise. If she believes that she is failing as a mother, if she is convinced she is doing something wrong, if she is overwhelmed and exhausted -- and she wasn't like that before -- then there is something emotional going on. Address that first. It may take a year or more with counseling, but you can handle the savings rate afterwards.
This is great advice. I'm with you, OP, in that I can't relate to your wife's feelings. I'm a SAHM with no house cleaner, though my son goes to preschool 2 mornings a week. We just started that in September b/c my husband travels for 3 weeks in a row every month. I manage to get cooking/laundry/etc. done and cut costs, all while being what feels like a single mom. So to me, your wife's life sounds extra luxurious. It also sounds like she barely has to do any childcare at all.
But I have a friend who strikes me as very similar to your wife, though she works full time. She has two small children, she and her H both have good-paying jobs, but she feels that she will never have enough money to live how she wants. This even though her family receives yearly contributions from her mother in the tens of thousands. She struggles with anxiety, even on medication, and I know that contributes to her feeling that her life just isn't as good as it could be. She also is 100% NOT open to suggestions on how to cut back. For her, she feels it is asking her to sacrifice when she is already giving up so much.
All that to say, I wonder if something similar could be going on with your wife? As other posters have suggested, anxiety/depression could certainly play a role in your wife's dissatisfaction with her life. I know you mentioned that you two had been to couples counseling before; I wonder if you'd consider it again. You are each approaching your finances from vastly different perspectives with little overlap and a professional could help you communicate with each other. An added bonus of counseling would be that, if your wife does have depression/anxiety, it would (hopefully) become apparent in a session. A professional may have more luck broaching the topic with her than you would.
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My daughter is now 4 (almost 5) and I am just seeing the light at the end of the tunnel since motherhood began.
I see a lot of myself in your wife -- being a SAHM is hard -- and the toddler phase is the hardest....
Hold on.
Did you have someone else taking care of your kids 6 DAYS A WEEK?
Did you have a maid come to the house EVERY WEEK?
I'm sorry, but your experience is completely different from the OP's wife.
You can't tell me that being a SAHM is hard when a maid comes to clean the house every week and the kids get dropped off at daycare 6 days a week.
I'm not defending the OP's wife because she says she wants to be a SAHM, but...
While all this help would make it somewhat more appealing, I can honestly say that I would hate being a SAHM even under these conditions. Obviously, I would suck it up if I had to, but having other options is much better. For some people, yes, even for some women, being a SAHM is not a desirable situation.
If that is the case she has the option of not being a SAHM. From the information provided she already has plenty of time to work part time for 20 hours a week. It wouldn't even be that huge of a jump to extend the kids daycare to a full day and work full time.
You don't get to have you cake and eat it too.
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She sounds spoiled to me. She could easily cut the childcare back to a 2 or 3 day/week half day program (mother's morning out, offered at many churches, very inexpensive).
The culture in my area is what she wants: half day preschool, maid, spending money for shopping, coffees and lunches out, tennis club, etc. This is the norm, and I reject that. She needs poorer friends, and to quit hanging out with spendy pants relatives. I wish she'd come hang out with me - I'd teach her how to home make on a shoe string budget and love it.
Looking at his other posts, I believe they are in Israel so they probably do not have the same options. If I understood correctly, there is no part time pay for daycare, it is full time cost even if they go part time.
In my opinion, you are trying to prove that she CAN have everything she could have had if she married into money. It must be exhausting trying to prove your worth to her. Honestly, I am beginning to think it is really your fault because you are letting her think her unrealistic expectations are realistic by your actions. Paying $1000/month for daycare plus $250 for cleaning service is not a life style you can afford. You keep on defending how exhausted she gets (from doing what?) and how she deserves these but in reality you are trying to give her the life she or her family thinks she could have had with a rich husband. I am curious, was her family really accepting of her marrying you? I said it earlier, I will repeat, she sold you the idea of her not working by telling you how she thinks a mom should stay at home and raise her kids, which you agree with, however, her actions show that she doesn't really think that, she just told you what you wanted to hear. I would wait until she adjusts her expectations to your family's reality before having any more kids.
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1. Assume she is venting unless told otherwise. You vent about the challenges and frustrations of your day, right? I bet most of her complaints are her doing the same thing. She doesn't want to change anything, she isn't asking for solutions -- she just wants to hear, "wow, that's really frustrating, I appreciate how much you are sacrificing for the family."
[BTDT -- when DH and I were just married, I was unhappy with some job stuff, and I'd come home and vent; DH, ever the engineer, wanted to fix it all for me and so would make all these helpful suggestions; and then I'd get more and more annoyed, because I just wanted to vent, and I heard his suggestions as him not trusting me to manage my own job. We ultimately agreed that, when I was in that mood, I'd flag it by saying "I just need to vent," and he'd know to make sympathetic noises and then keep his mouth shut. :-)]
+1000. It took me 5 years of marriage to learn this. DW finally cut me off mid-suggestion on how *I* would solve her issue with a coworker, and yelled "I don't need to you solve my problem, I'm not an idiot, I know what to do! I just need to vent! I just want you to smile and nod, and then say, 'You're right honey, so-and-so really is an asshole'!".
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I started to write out all of the ways that she needed coping mechanisms for this difficult time (2 little kids) and therapy could help. But you know what? Therapy will only help if she has an open mind and willingness to delve into her issues. She has given herself A LOT OF COPING MECHANISMS already. She is not a FT stay at home parent. She does it PT. (As a FT working mom of a 4.5 year old and 6 month old, I was getting ready to saddle my high horse and get all judgy. I will try not to do that.) As a lot of other commenters have said, half day daycare 6 days a week in non-wealthy circles for a SAHM is not the norm. It is not normal at all. Given the ages of your kids, they both are most likely also napping/having quiet time in the afternoon when she is home and in charge of them. Which leaves her single parenting probably about 5 hours a day total, all added together. That's still work, but its not full time and it isn't what most people understand that they have signed up for in exchange for getting the privilege of getting to parent without the grueling FT parenting+workday drill. But if you acknowledge that she gets a lot of extra help each day and it works for you all, great.
Your wife may be a lovely person, but she is not coming across as a capable, strong person. You love her, say she is not lazy, and if you have the financial means to prop her up with lots of extra help (but not to do that and save for FIRE as much as you would like), I think you should work on accepting the situation for now, leave the lines of communication open when discussing pros and cons of saving more vs. spending, and see if things don't change when the kids get older and go to school in a few years (fingers crossed, for your budgeting purposes, public school). If she genuinely wants to save, but is just a fragile person that needs extra assistance during these 'tough' years, perhaps she will come around when times aren't as tough. But then again, I am relying on what I hear from others that school aged kids are, as a whole, much less demanding than toddlers/preschoolers. Good luck.
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Quick question : has she ever been happy?
Does she have a personality of wanting more / next thing/ etc before being happy & fulfilled in life?
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My wife has no maid, daycare, has two teenagers, a toddler, and a baby, takes care of the housecleaning and cooking. Most mornings she gets up and cooks my breakfast while I am in the shower to get ready for work. She has a lunch packed for me to take with me (shepherd's pie today, yum!) and dinner on the table with the family when I arrive home. She works out several times a week. She is fit and beautiful (she had a baby a few months ago!). She lately has started "getting ready" (as she calls it) with makeup and hair most days.
She also thanks me frequently for making it possible for her to stay at home with her children. Gasp!
She seems genuinely happy and cannot understand women who go to work and leave the children in daycare.
It would be very difficult for me to give you any advice whatsoever about your wife, because what you are writing is so alien to me. I chuckled when you wrote about the maid and daycare, and I agree with the posters above who say she is a spoiled brat. The money being spent on daycare and the maid, would, when combined with what you are already contributing, max out your retirement accounts.
Where do you live? Is this in the US? I can't believe your wife thanks you frequently - my wife is a SAHM and I get no thanks whatsoever.
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My wife has no maid, daycare, has two teenagers, a toddler, and a baby, takes care of the housecleaning and cooking. Most mornings she gets up and cooks my breakfast while I am in the shower to get ready for work. She has a lunch packed for me to take with me (shepherd's pie today, yum!) and dinner on the table with the family when I arrive home. She works out several times a week. She is fit and beautiful (she had a baby a few months ago!). She lately has started "getting ready" (as she calls it) with makeup and hair most days.
She also thanks me frequently for making it possible for her to stay at home with her children. Gasp!
She seems genuinely happy and cannot understand women who go to work and leave the children in daycare.
It would be very difficult for me to give you any advice whatsoever about your wife, because what you are writing is so alien to me. I chuckled when you wrote about the maid and daycare, and I agree with the posters above who say she is a spoiled brat. The money being spent on daycare and the maid, would, when combined with what you are already contributing, max out your retirement accounts.
Where do you live? Is this in the US? I can't believe your wife thanks you frequently - my wife is a SAHM and I get no thanks whatsoever.
My husband is a SAHD, and we frequently thank each OTHER for the contributions we make. Not an alternative fact. Genuine appreciation is one of the things that makes us a better couple. Maybe it could work for you too, Cheesebert?
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I'm not defending the OP's wife because she says she wants to be a SAHM, but...
While all this help would make it somewhat more appealing, I can honestly say that I would hate being a SAHM even under these conditions. Obviously, I would suck it up if I had to, but having other options is much better. For some people, yes, even for some women, being a SAHM is not a desirable situation.
Same. Some people just aren't cut out to be a stay at home parent, and I am one of them. Even with a lot of help, it's just not what I want to do with my days. I want to have conversations with other adults, and take on intellectually demanding projects. Getting childcare for three hours/day so that I can go to Costco would not accomplish those things.
I am lucky in that my mother worked, so I had a role model for working motherhood. My husband never expected me to stay home, and it would be a very unusual choice for my professional field and training. I never had any implicit or explicit pressure to stay home. I can see, though, that if I had grown up in a different community, I would have ended up staying home because it was expected of me, and I would be miserable.
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
Not necessarily, though I may live in the US I grew up in the Netherlands where the cost of childcare is much less of a concern and also stores aren't generally open late and have limited hours on weekends. Being on a forum that is all about bucking the social norms you are bound to get a response that doing something because it is a societal norm makes it acceptable is ridiculous.
It is a matter of no matter how you spin it having childcare 6 days a week and a maid leaves almost no actual work to do. It is an insult to all mothers like mine who managed to take care of more kids, on a much smaller income while working partite/fulltime.
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My wife has no maid, daycare, has two teenagers, a toddler, and a baby, takes care of the housecleaning and cooking. Most mornings she gets up and cooks my breakfast while I am in the shower to get ready for work. She has a lunch packed for me to take with me (shepherd's pie today, yum!) and dinner on the table with the family when I arrive home. She works out several times a week. She is fit and beautiful (she had a baby a few months ago!). She lately has started "getting ready" (as she calls it) with makeup and hair most days.
She also thanks me frequently for making it possible for her to stay at home with her children. Gasp!
She seems genuinely happy and cannot understand women who go to work and leave the children in daycare.
It would be very difficult for me to give you any advice whatsoever about your wife, because what you are writing is so alien to me. I chuckled when you wrote about the maid and daycare, and I agree with the posters above who say she is a spoiled brat. The money being spent on daycare and the maid, would, when combined with what you are already contributing, max out your retirement accounts.
Where do you live? Is this in the US? I can't believe your wife thanks you frequently - my wife is a SAHM and I get no thanks whatsoever.
My husband is a SAHD, and we frequently thank each OTHER for the contributions we make. Not an alternative fact. Genuine appreciation is one of the things that makes us a better couple. Maybe it could work for you too, Cheesebert?
Perhaps we all need to be more thankful. Now, back to OP's problem.
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This reminds me of the time my then 4 year old brother told our mom that he really liked the cherry pie, except for all of the little red balls.
Here, SAHM really likes being SAHM, except for the parenting, the cooking, and the cleaning.... like she's somehow equating it to being retired?
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My wife has no maid, daycare, has two teenagers, a toddler, and a baby, takes care of the housecleaning and cooking. Most mornings she gets up and cooks my breakfast while I am in the shower to get ready for work. She has a lunch packed for me to take with me (shepherd's pie today, yum!) and dinner on the table with the family when I arrive home. She works out several times a week. She is fit and beautiful (she had a baby a few months ago!). She lately has started "getting ready" (as she calls it) with makeup and hair most days.
She also thanks me frequently for making it possible for her to stay at home with her children. Gasp!
She seems genuinely happy and cannot understand women who go to work and leave the children in daycare.
It would be very difficult for me to give you any advice whatsoever about your wife, because what you are writing is so alien to me. I chuckled when you wrote about the maid and daycare, and I agree with the posters above who say she is a spoiled brat. The money being spent on daycare and the maid, would, when combined with what you are already contributing, max out your retirement accounts.
Where do you live? Is this in the US? I can't believe your wife thanks you frequently - my wife is a SAHM and I get no thanks whatsoever.
Yes, we live in the US.
Sometimes I can't believe it either.
It's always impossible to know exactly what another person is really thinking, but she seems really, really happy and fulfilled. She told me she has the life she has always wanted since she was a girl, and she is definitely not talking about finances, since we are one income and still working hard on income and budget (as a side note, she is great on the budget, a huge help in meeting our goals, feeding our family of six on $550 monthly).
we frequently thank each OTHER for the contributions we make. Not an alternative fact. Genuine appreciation is one of the things that makes us a better couple. Maybe it could work for you too, Cheesebert?
Hopper, I hope my overwhelming gratitude to my wife shows in the posts I have made. You make a good point. We are both genuinely thankful for the contributions each makes to our family and express it frequently.
chesebert's surprise, however, is probably warranted. There are not that many wives in the US thanking their husbands for the opportunity to be a SAHM, which is a little different from just expressing thanks for bringing home a paycheck or other contributions to the family. There are definitely not that many wives in the US who openly express and seem to be genuinely happy and fulfilled being a homemaker (well, outside of studies showing it to be the occupation with the highest satisfaction ratings for women). Most look at it as an unpleasant chore, at least around here it seems that way to me. That might just be the area in which I live, though. Lots and lots of two income households.
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My wife has no maid, daycare, has two teenagers, a toddler, and a baby, takes care of the housecleaning and cooking. Most mornings she gets up and cooks my breakfast while I am in the shower to get ready for work. She has a lunch packed for me to take with me (shepherd's pie today, yum!) and dinner on the table with the family when I arrive home. She works out several times a week. She is fit and beautiful (she had a baby a few months ago!). She lately has started "getting ready" (as she calls it) with makeup and hair most days.
She also thanks me frequently for making it possible for her to stay at home with her children. Gasp!
She seems genuinely happy and cannot understand women who go to work and leave the children in daycare.
It would be very difficult for me to give you any advice whatsoever about your wife, because what you are writing is so alien to me. I chuckled when you wrote about the maid and daycare, and I agree with the posters above who say she is a spoiled brat. The money being spent on daycare and the maid, would, when combined with what you are already contributing, max out your retirement accounts.
Where do you live? Is this in the US? I can't believe your wife thanks you frequently - my wife is a SAHM and I get no thanks whatsoever.
My husband is a SAHD, and we frequently thank each OTHER for the contributions we make. Not an alternative fact. Genuine appreciation is one of the things that makes us a better couple. Maybe it could work for you too, Cheesebert?
Perhaps we all need to be more thankful. Now, back to OP's problem.
Unfortunately I think the OP's problem is that his wife is never going to feel like he makes enough money to support her lifestyle. That is sad - especially given they have two kids.
Being a SAHM is an important, honorable, and difficult job. It is equal to a full time job and should be given that status. But she is not a full time SAHM - she is barely doing it half time.
And she's living with a standard of luxury but feels deprived. This doesn't change easily. I feel sorry for OP and the kids.
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Here's the thing -- you guys need to work on separating money and things from happiness. It sounds like your wife is comparing to her friends, and you say you want her to feel above her friends, and that's just not the point. How can you both re-focus on the things that mean the most to you, and move away from thinking about the money and material goods so much?
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I think your wife should read Your money or your life. That might put things into a different perspective. It might change her wants. What does she want more?
What really resonated with me is the concept of respecting your life energy by not trading it for money so that you can buy more stuff you don't need. You spend your hours working, so that she can spend more money on whatever she desires. She demands more....and is still unhappy, but you have finite time to work, so spend that energy wisely.
Greed and gratitude. Once she gets that balance right, you might be on the right track.
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Hi, I haven't read all of the responses, but I wanted to say that it sounds like your is suffering from depression. I suspect that dealing with that would help the other things (financial included!) fall in order. Good luck!
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1. Assume she is venting unless told otherwise. You vent about the challenges and frustrations of your day, right? I bet most of her complaints are her doing the same thing. She doesn't want to change anything, she isn't asking for solutions -- she just wants to hear, "wow, that's really frustrating, I appreciate how much you are sacrificing for the family."
[BTDT -- when DH and I were just married, I was unhappy with some job stuff, and I'd come home and vent; DH, ever the engineer, wanted to fix it all for me and so would make all these helpful suggestions; and then I'd get more and more annoyed, because I just wanted to vent, and I heard his suggestions as him not trusting me to manage my own job. We ultimately agreed that, when I was in that mood, I'd flag it by saying "I just need to vent," and he'd know to make sympathetic noises and then keep his mouth shut. :-)]
+1000. It took me 5 years of marriage to learn this. DW finally cut me off mid-suggestion on how *I* would solve her issue with a coworker, and yelled "I don't need to you solve my problem, I'm not an idiot, I know what to do! I just need to vent! I just want you to smile and nod, and then say, 'You're right honey, so-and-so really is an asshole'!".
Umm, honey, what are you doing on the MMM boards? :-)
[Seriously, you just quoted my conversation with DH there]
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Agree with some of the earlier posts, there is something wrong with the wife. SAHM with 6 days/ week daycare and a maid. Frustrated there isn't more money and how hard she has it.
Either she changes her attitude, or they will both be miserable, or they will get divorced. That sounds harsh but it's hard to see any outcome here other than one of those.
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Everyone seems to be focusing on your wife's supposed character flaws. I really don't see how that's productive. Let's stipulate for a moment that there is no depression or anything else at play, and she's simply entitled and spoiled.
Okay. How does having that knowledge help the OP? Is he supposed to go to her and call her spoiled and lazy to her face? Is that likely to be productive?
He married this woman, as she is, even if that's spoiled and lazy. So to suddenly expect that to go away is ridiculous. Instead of spending energy vilifying his wife (or listening to us vilifying her), he needs to figure out how to work in partnership with the woman sitting across the table from him, not some slightly better version of her that isn't spoiled and lazy. Dismissing her as lazy and spoiled, or simply demanding that the things she has and wants to keep are far more than many have, and expecting that to change her world view is never going to change anything. They'll both continue to be unhappy. In fact, they will likely become more and more unhappy.
Facepunches are great when people ask for them or solicit advice. OP's wife has done neither, and it's a pretty safe bet that she wouldn't be receptive to them. Face-punches for the OP about this wife's character flaws aren't going to accomplish anything. They are already married, so that ship has sort of sailed. He's got to work with her, as she is, unless he wants them to continue to be unhappy, or he wants to divorce her.
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It does help in terms of recognizing how abnormal this behavior is. Obviously, it doesn't help in terms of bluntly telling the wife, which no one was suggesting and would obviously not work.
Recognizing a problem is the first step in deciding on a strategy to address it.
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What solutions or fixes has your wife proposed? So she's unhappy - how would she fix it? Have you asked her how she would deal with this problem?
She's an adult. When adults have problems, they propose solutions. Not tell their husband they're unhappy and wait for them to fix it somehow.
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Villanelle - thanks for your reply.
I gotta say, reading these latest posts describing laziness, brattiness even suggesting to move the thread to a wall of shame, leaves me overwhelmed. I don't mind hearing hard stuff and I'm not the type of guy to be unrealistic, but some of the stuff here is real poison which can drastically affect relationships. It's like many were waiting for the first person to say what's on their mind and then hopped on the train. I hope anyone else in a similar situation like me will know how to filter that out.
I came here with an issue, asking for advice on how to overcome, fix and get through a tough period. I'm pretty amazed at how easily some of you suggest divorce as if that's something you do in the blink of an eye.
My wife is not a trophy wife as one here said. She's definitely not frugal, but that doesn't mean breaking up a family.
I'm sure all of you have issues just like any human being, and like any couple, and I hope you don't end a relationship without trying to fix it first.
It's possible to convey how abnormal a situation is simply by stating facts or personal stories, without being so judgemental. I'm old enough to make the comparison myself.
That being said, thanks to all you put in the time to read and reply. Especially to those who, while acknowledging the problem, still offered constructive suggestions.
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Villanelle - thanks for your reply.
I gotta say, reading these latest posts describing laziness, brattiness even suggesting to move the thread to a wall of shame, leaves me overwhelmed. I don't mind hearing hard stuff and I'm not the type of guy to be unrealistic, but some of the stuff here is real poison which can drastically affect relationships. It's like many were waiting for the first person to say what's on their mind and then hopped on the train. I hope anyone else in a similar situation like me will know how to filter that out.
I came here with an issue, asking for advice on how to overcome, fix and get through a tough period. I'm pretty amazed at how easily some of you suggest divorce as if that's something you do in the blink of an eye.
My wife is not a trophy wife as one here said. She's definitely not frugal, but that doesn't mean breaking up a family.
I'm sure all of you have issues just like any human being, and like any couple, and I hope you don't end a relationship without trying to fix it first.
It's possible to convey how abnormal a situation is simply by stating facts or personal stories, without being so judgemental. I'm old enough to make the comparison myself.
That being said, thanks to all you put in the time to read and reply. Especially to those who, while acknowledging the problem, still offered constructive suggestions.
While a lot of the responses saying that your wife is lazy or bratty are harsh and somewhat unkind I don't think they are unwarranted given the information you've presented to us. Your wife receives an incredible amount of help with the SAHM duties and seems to be struggling with that lightened load. If most people could lift 100 lbs and you presented us a situation where a person could only lift 25 lbs it wouldn't be inaccurate to call that person weak. All of this is not necessarily helpful to your situation though except as a way to get through to you that your current state of affairs is not not normal. I would guess that less that 10% of families in industrialized countries live with that luxurious set up, not to mention the remaining billions of people with far less. As I see it both you and your wife need a reality check as to your current status although it's your money and you make enough to not take on water doing this so feel free to continue. Personally I see two paths forward, one is that you make no changes and mentally prepare yourself for a longer working life than you'd prefer. The second is that you sit down with your wife and really hash out what you both want out of life going forward. I don't think people were suggesting to you that you divorce your wife. I would never suggest that. There is a recognition that there seems to be a gulf between your desires and hers right now though which isn't a great sign.
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Is it possible that having a maid and daycare service is freeing up way too much time for your wife, thus leading her mind to slip away from parenting and towards consumerist distractions? Too much time on a person's hands is one hell of a way for them to convince themselves that consumerist wants are actually needs.
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I don't know if that's the case, it may be.
My wife was at home with one or both of the kids until about 5 months ago. That is when my second kid went into daycare at age 1.5. Until then she was at home with either one or both, so if the notion came off that they have been in daycare since they were born, that's wrong.
It was difficult for both of us with both kids at young ages with all that's involved - caring, cooking, sick days, sleepless nights, etc. It was also a period of more emotional stress as we moved into a new house and had growing pains I think any regular family has. Newborns also mean conflicts regarding how to raise them and new situations we as a couple needed to learn together. All this causes stress as well. Why do I get the feeling this is a non-issue for many of the posters here?
Now since things are getting more relaxed and back into a more regular schedule we are looking for ways to move ahead. However, perhaps the past 2.5 years with all these changes has left emotional strain on my wife, and I am trying to get to the bottom of that.
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Villanelle - thanks for your reply.
I gotta say, reading these latest posts describing laziness, brattiness even suggesting to move the thread to a wall of shame, leaves me overwhelmed. I don't mind hearing hard stuff and I'm not the type of guy to be unrealistic, but some of the stuff here is real poison which can drastically affect relationships. It's like many were waiting for the first person to say what's on their mind and then hopped on the train. I hope anyone else in a similar situation like me will know how to filter that out.
I came here with an issue, asking for advice on how to overcome, fix and get through a tough period. I'm pretty amazed at how easily some of you suggest divorce as if that's something you do in the blink of an eye.
My wife is not a trophy wife as one here said. She's definitely not frugal, but that doesn't mean breaking up a family.
I'm sure all of you have issues just like any human being, and like any couple, and I hope you don't end a relationship without trying to fix it first.
It's possible to convey how abnormal a situation is simply by stating facts or personal stories, without being so judgemental. I'm old enough to make the comparison myself.
That being said, thanks to all you put in the time to read and reply. Especially to those who, while acknowledging the problem, still offered constructive suggestions.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the constructive suggestions I provided earlier. (Page 2 I think?). I talked about encouraging her to dive more into the finances so that she feels ownership over the whole amount saved. I also talked about how her being more involved in finances may open her eyes up to where you could cut.
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The first few years of motherhood are tough. It can be lonely, overwhelming, exhausting, etc. I wonder about what someone else mentioned - is there too much leisure time now that she fills with shopping/fretting over what she can't buy?
Does she have hobbies or something she's always wanted to learn? (Bonus if it can be done cheaply.)
When my kids started getting independent and half day preschool, I took that opportunity to delve heavily into cooking from scratch - started baking bread like I've never done before. I started sewing and have gotten quite good - selling things in a shop now.
My opinion, as a SAHM mom, is that she needs another outlet - a creative one - to alleviate the jonesing.
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It was difficult for both of us with both kids at young ages with all that's involved - caring, cooking, sick days, sleepless nights, etc. It was also a period of more emotional stress as we moved into a new house and had growing pains I think any regular family has. Newborns also mean conflicts regarding how to raise them and new situations we as a couple needed to learn together. All this causes stress as well.
Why do I get the feeling this is a non-issue for many of the posters here?
What you are describing is called life as a parent. Tens of millions of people deal with these same issues on a daily basis. Every parent is faced with the issues you describe, and while there are certainly challenges along the way, you deal with it.
What makes your situation unique is your wife's role as a "SAHM." It is highly unusual, almost unheard of, for a SAHM to have her kids in daycare 6 DAYS A WEEK and a maid service EVERY WEEK. On top of this, she expresses extreme unhappiness with her situation, even though she seemingly has it made!
This is the disconnect between your situation and everyone else's. This is why we are suggesting that something is not quite right with your wife. This leads to speculation (trophy wife, spoiled, depressed, ect), which may or may not be correct.
Either way, this is not a financial issue. You need to dig deep to figure out the root cause of your wife's unhappiness.
After this is figured out, she either needs to start working OR become a real SAHM and cancel the daycare/maid service.
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I don't know if that's the case, it may be.
My wife was at home with one or both of the kids until about 5 months ago. That is when my second kid went into daycare at age 1.5. Until then she was at home with either one or both, so if the notion came off that they have been in daycare since they were born, that's wrong.
It was difficult for both of us with both kids at young ages with all that's involved - caring, cooking, sick days, sleepless nights, etc. It was also a period of more emotional stress as we moved into a new house and had growing pains I think any regular family has. Newborns also mean conflicts regarding how to raise them and new situations we as a couple needed to learn together. All this causes stress as well. Why do I get the feeling this is a non-issue for many of the posters here?
Now since things are getting more relaxed and back into a more regular schedule we are looking for ways to move ahead. However, perhaps the past 2.5 years with all these changes has left emotional strain on my wife, and I am trying to get to the bottom of that.
1. Because for those of us with older kids, selective amnesia has set in. :-)
2. I think this is insightful and thoughtful. Why don't you ask her that directly? Even in those exact words? Not at the end of a stressful day, but out somewhere on a patio with a bottle of wine? "I see you are unhappy, I see you under emotional strain, what can we do, how can I help? Your happiness matters to me."
FWIW, when I was home with our first child, I was doing "less" than ever in my life, and I was also the most unhappy. We were also in a new home, I had had to leave my job and was trying to telecommute very part-time, and I did not have any kind of a local support system [although TBH, *I* was the one fretting about spending too much :-)]. What got me through was the big-picture "dream" talks with my DH -- I needed to figure out what I wanted [turns out, it was to be in an office in a regular job again], and so we made a long-term plan to get there [he agreed to move when the job market improved], which made the short-term more bearable. But that whole process took probably 6-8 months for me to work through before I even knew enough to ask him for what I wanted.
It sounds like she feels empty, and she is trying to fill the void with stuff, which is always the wrong answer. The real answer may be that your wife needs to learn how strong/competent she is by really buckling down and committing to being a SAHM frugalista. Or she may be discovering that the SAHM role doesn't fit and she wants something different. Only you and she can figure that out, with patience and mutual support and lots of talking. [and it's ok for you to voice your own fears and dreams, too -- you have a lot of pressure on you as sole provider, and it has to be hurtful to work so hard *for her* and still see her unhappy]
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theotherelise - Hi again.
I re-read your post. We actually used to budget together. I realized when we got married that it could help us a lot, and we stuck to it for 2 whole years. We would have monthly budget sessions and use YNAB for setting amounts. It was tiring, we would argue and have our differences, but I think it was a good process. I (partly) credit the fact that we could purchase a lovely apartment so early on to those sessions. Just for comparison - barley anyone our age has the financial means to do that in this market. The housing market here is much much different from the US.
We sort of lost track of that once the kids were born due to many factors, me being a part of that. We tried re-starting the process (my wife pushed for it by the way), about 6 months ago, but it was hard to stick to. Then she came forward with this idea that we implement now. Every week she takes out a specific amount of cash (about 20% of our income) and that's what she uses for her share of the expenses (such as, groceries, housekeeper, clothing for the family, baby care, drug store, feminine products, gifts, anything fun she wants to do and some more). I still take account of the rest of our expenses using YNAB. The first month or two she managed to save a whole lot from her allotted sum. Please note this does not mean I give her a limited amount of money as some sort of parent/child allowance. This is just a system where she feels can be easier to manage.
The past 2 months were a bit more of a struggle and this caused her frustration which prompted me to start this thread because I feel that these things go about in cycles and I would like to break this cycle.
What do you think of this?
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Villanelle - thanks for your reply.
I gotta say, reading these latest posts describing laziness, brattiness even suggesting to move the thread to a wall of shame, leaves me overwhelmed. I don't mind hearing hard stuff and I'm not the type of guy to be unrealistic, but some of the stuff here is real poison which can drastically affect relationships. It's like many were waiting for the first person to say what's on their mind and then hopped on the train. I hope anyone else in a similar situation like me will know how to filter that out.
I came here with an issue, asking for advice on how to overcome, fix and get through a tough period. I'm pretty amazed at how easily some of you suggest divorce as if that's something you do in the blink of an eye.
My wife is not a trophy wife as one here said. She's definitely not frugal, but that doesn't mean breaking up a family.
I'm sure all of you have issues just like any human being, and like any couple, and I hope you don't end a relationship without trying to fix it first.
It's possible to convey how abnormal a situation is simply by stating facts or personal stories, without being so judgemental. I'm old enough to make the comparison myself.
That being said, thanks to all you put in the time to read and reply. Especially to those who, while acknowledging the problem, still offered constructive suggestions.
I'll bite since you literally called out my comment about her effectively being a trophy wife. She doesn't work and she is part time taking care of the kids and she is only part time working around the house. This is not something that is considered normal by the vast majority of people on this planet and that is including all the people we here consider consumer suckas. Most people have two options or only one of those two. Either both people work and kids are in daycare starting as soon as parental leave ends for the mother which for many is only a few month or none at all. Paternal leave is even less available for many people so the father is lucky to get any time off to help with the kids in the first few month. The second option for many couples having a kid is for the parent with the lowest income potential to become a stay at home parent and take on the childcare and household duties allowing the other spouse to focus on working as much as possible while removing childcare and other household costs.
The reason people are giving you face punches is because it seems you keep making excuses for the situation. Your wife is living a life of luxury to an extent the vast majority of humans have never had and is complaining.
I have mentioned the constructive feedback that you should likely be talking to someone since either your wife is depressed or has some other mental issues or if she doesn't she has some unrealistic expectations that need to be talked through and I doubt it is happening given the current situation and your automatic reflex of defending some of her behaviors which I suspect you are even likelier to do in real life with your wife if you do it even when on an anonymous message board.
I'm not one of the ones that said divorce since you have kids and as long as you two are able to provide a life for the kids with two parents and no financial issues where you are in massive debt and can't provide generally having both parents is the best for your kids. However at the same time your wife not working yet choosing to spend far less time with your kids is a little alarming to me. It'd be one thing if your kids were in childcare 1-2 mornings per week to give her a morning of rest and/or some time to get shopping or other chores done that are harder with small children in tow, however that isn't the case here. You also responded to my calling your wife a trophy wife, yet haven't addressed my reversing the roles and question what you would think of the husband in said scenario.
I'm sorry if some of this is a little harsh, however to me it doesn't feel like you are actually all that open to most suggestions made and are hoping for an easy answer where there is none. If you want this resolved it is likely to involve you either shutting up and putting up with it or having some seriously uncomfortable conversation with your wife possible with a counselor involved.
Nobody would be judging if she was a SAHM and she was taking care of the children and household full time saving money that way and she had some complaints about feeling restricted in her spending as long as she wasn't expecting anything crazy. Neither would anyone be judging if she was working part time or full time to be able to put the kids through childcare if she just isn't into being a full time SAHM. It's the trying to have the best of both worlds and complaining. Also you have to keep in mind we are getting only your side of the story and are responding to the best of our knowledge of your situation based on what you have said and our own experience/general knowledge.
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
Not necessarily, though I may live in the US I grew up in the Netherlands where the cost of childcare is much less of a concern and also stores aren't generally open late and have limited hours on weekends. Being on a forum that is all about bucking the social norms you are bound to get a response that doing something because it is a societal norm makes it acceptable is ridiculous.
It is a matter of no matter how you spin it having childcare 6 days a week and a maid leaves almost no actual work to do. It is an insult to all mothers like mine who managed to take care of more kids, on a much smaller income while working partite/fulltime.
You make a good point about bucking societal norms in general - but my post was more in response to those who are saying "6 days of daycare AND a maid AND SAHMing?! NOBODY DOES THAT!" to point out that nobody in America really does that. A lot of people responding here are being pretty intense, saying there is something wrong with the wife and calling her lazy, etc.
But their situation might be much more common in Israel and therefor our responses might seem really out of whack to the OP ( ie. we're being overly dramatic and fatalistic about his marriage.) Cultural context matters and I feel should be taken into consideration when offering advice.
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Villanelle - thanks for your reply.
I gotta say, reading these latest posts describing laziness, brattiness even suggesting to move the thread to a wall of shame, leaves me overwhelmed. I don't mind hearing hard stuff and I'm not the type of guy to be unrealistic, but some of the stuff here is real poison which can drastically affect relationships. It's like many were waiting for the first person to say what's on their mind and then hopped on the train. I hope anyone else in a similar situation like me will know how to filter that out.
I came here with an issue, asking for advice on how to overcome, fix and get through a tough period. I'm pretty amazed at how easily some of you suggest divorce as if that's something you do in the blink of an eye.
My wife is not a trophy wife as one here said. She's definitely not frugal, but that doesn't mean breaking up a family.
I'm sure all of you have issues just like any human being, and like any couple, and I hope you don't end a relationship without trying to fix it first.
It's possible to convey how abnormal a situation is simply by stating facts or personal stories, without being so judgemental. I'm old enough to make the comparison myself.
That being said, thanks to all you put in the time to read and reply. Especially to those who, while acknowledging the problem, still offered constructive suggestions.
I'm sorry - but as I already suggested - some of these things can only be fixed by the one perpetrating them. I'm sorry that it offends you that I think a woman who has daycare 6 days a week and a weekly maid and still feels like she is deprived is a lazy brat. It is the two of you that decided to become parents and she decided to be a stay at home mother. Did she think she'd be living a life of leisure when she did that? Your children are not being raised by their parents but by strangers at day care. Given that and how unhappy she is - more than one of us has suggested she get a job during the time the children are in day care. Again - the entire world handles these situations with much, much, much less than your wife has - and they don't feel deprived in any way. Your wife needs serious counseling. HER BEHAVIOR IS NOT NORMAL. And that is even so for those of us who had kids years ago. Again - I would NEVER tell the man I love, my husband, that I don't have enough.
As I see it you have few choices because I am pretty sure she sees herself as acting normally. But your relationship is not going to last with a woman who feels deprived all of the time. And you cannot fill that void for her.
Get her to a counselor immediately - she's got lots of spare time to go. And go with her if that is what it takes to get there. AND DON'T ADD MORE CHILDREN TO THE MIX WITH AN UNHAPPY PARENT! No matter what you think - they sense and know that she is unhappy.
Finally - we've all asked you:
1- where do you live
2 - what has your wife "cut back" on
3- to do a case study
I can understand not getting to number 3 - that takes some time - but why haven't you answered the multiple requests for 1 and 2?
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The past 2 months were a bit more of a struggle and this caused her frustration which prompted me to start this thread because I feel that these things go about in cycles and I would like to break this cycle.
Again, this is not a money or financial issue. It appears she feels unfulfilled in her current life.
The maid and daycare are costing you ~$1250 each month. That is a lot of money.
She can't have her cake and eat it too. Either she wants to be a SAHM and is willing to forgo these things OR she keeps the maid/daycare and gets a job.
Either of these scenarios will result in a substantial amount of additional money available, which could lessen the feeling of each month being a financial "struggle".
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
Not necessarily, though I may live in the US I grew up in the Netherlands where the cost of childcare is much less of a concern and also stores aren't generally open late and have limited hours on weekends. Being on a forum that is all about bucking the social norms you are bound to get a response that doing something because it is a societal norm makes it acceptable is ridiculous.
It is a matter of no matter how you spin it having childcare 6 days a week and a maid leaves almost no actual work to do. It is an insult to all mothers like mine who managed to take care of more kids, on a much smaller income while working partite/fulltime.
You make a good point about bucking societal norms in general - but my post was more in response to those who are saying "6 days of daycare AND a maid AND SAHMing?! NOBODY DOES THAT!" to point out that nobody in America really does that. A lot of people responding here are being pretty intense, saying there is something wrong with the wife and calling her lazy, etc.
But their situation might be much more common in Israel and therefor our responses might seem really out of whack to the OP ( ie. we're being overly dramatic and fatalistic about his marriage.) Cultural context matters and I feel should be taken into consideration when offering advice.
He's never said they live in Israel. But even if they do - a woman who has day care 6 days a week and a maid once a week and a husband that comes home and takes care of the kids in addition - I don't care what culture you live in - that is lazy and disrespectful.
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Villanelle - thanks for your reply.
I gotta say, reading these latest posts describing laziness, brattiness even suggesting to move the thread to a wall of shame, leaves me overwhelmed. I don't mind hearing hard stuff and I'm not the type of guy to be unrealistic, but some of the stuff here is real poison which can drastically affect relationships. It's like many were waiting for the first person to say what's on their mind and then hopped on the train. I hope anyone else in a similar situation like me will know how to filter that out.
I came here with an issue, asking for advice on how to overcome, fix and get through a tough period. I'm pretty amazed at how easily some of you suggest divorce as if that's something you do in the blink of an eye.
My wife is not a trophy wife as one here said. She's definitely not frugal, but that doesn't mean breaking up a family.
I'm sure all of you have issues just like any human being, and like any couple, and I hope you don't end a relationship without trying to fix it first.
It's possible to convey how abnormal a situation is simply by stating facts or personal stories, without being so judgemental. I'm old enough to make the comparison myself.
That being said, thanks to all you put in the time to read and reply. Especially to those who, while acknowledging the problem, still offered constructive suggestions.
I'm sorry - but as I already suggested - some of these things can only be fixed by the one perpetrating them. I'm sorry that it offends you that I think a woman who has daycare 6 days a week and a weekly maid and still feels like she is deprived is a lazy brat. It is the two of you that decided to become parents and she decided to be a stay at home mother. Did she think she'd be living a life of leisure when she did that? Your children are not being raised by their parents but by strangers at day care. Given that and how unhappy she is - more than one of us has suggested she get a job during the time the children are in day care. Again - the entire world handles these situations with much, much, much less than your wife has - and they don't feel deprived in any way. Your wife needs serious counseling. HER BEHAVIOR IS NOT NORMAL. And that is even so for those of us who had kids years ago. Again - I would NEVER tell the man I love, my husband, that I don't have enough.
As I see it you have few choices because I am pretty sure she sees herself as acting normally. But your relationship is not going to last with a woman who feels deprived all of the time. And you cannot fill that void for her.
Get her to a counselor immediately - she's got lots of spare time to go. And go with her if that is what it takes to get there. AND DON'T ADD MORE CHILDREN TO THE MIX WITH AN UNHAPPY PARENT! No matter what you think - they sense and know that she is unhappy.
Finally - we've all asked you:
1- where do you live
2 - what has your wife "cut back" on
3- to do a case study
I can understand not getting to number 3 - that takes some time - but why haven't you answered the multiple requests for 1 and 2?
I would definitely agree with the no more children. If she is unhappy with the current state more kids will not help and will only rack up the costs making their budget even more of a stress and making it more likely it will end in divorce if not addressed.
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
Not necessarily, though I may live in the US I grew up in the Netherlands where the cost of childcare is much less of a concern and also stores aren't generally open late and have limited hours on weekends. Being on a forum that is all about bucking the social norms you are bound to get a response that doing something because it is a societal norm makes it acceptable is ridiculous.
It is a matter of no matter how you spin it having childcare 6 days a week and a maid leaves almost no actual work to do. It is an insult to all mothers like mine who managed to take care of more kids, on a much smaller income while working partite/fulltime.
You make a good point about bucking societal norms in general - but my post was more in response to those who are saying "6 days of daycare AND a maid AND SAHMing?! NOBODY DOES THAT!" to point out that nobody in America really does that. A lot of people responding here are being pretty intense, saying there is something wrong with the wife and calling her lazy, etc.
But their situation might be much more common in Israel and therefor our responses might seem really out of whack to the OP ( ie. we're being overly dramatic and fatalistic about his marriage.) Cultural context matters and I feel should be taken into consideration when offering advice.
He's never said they live in Israel. But even if they do - a woman who has day care 6 days a week and a maid once a week and a husband that comes home and takes care of the kids in addition - I don't care what culture you live in - that is lazy and disrespectful.
My apologies - I thought I remembered from a previous thread that that is where they lived. I must have had the wrong poster. Sorry about that.
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
Not necessarily, though I may live in the US I grew up in the Netherlands where the cost of childcare is much less of a concern and also stores aren't generally open late and have limited hours on weekends. Being on a forum that is all about bucking the social norms you are bound to get a response that doing something because it is a societal norm makes it acceptable is ridiculous.
It is a matter of no matter how you spin it having childcare 6 days a week and a maid leaves almost no actual work to do. It is an insult to all mothers like mine who managed to take care of more kids, on a much smaller income while working partite/fulltime.
You make a good point about bucking societal norms in general - but my post was more in response to those who are saying "6 days of daycare AND a maid AND SAHMing?! NOBODY DOES THAT!" to point out that nobody in America really does that. A lot of people responding here are being pretty intense, saying there is something wrong with the wife and calling her lazy, etc.
But their situation might be much more common in Israel and therefor our responses might seem really out of whack to the OP ( ie. we're being overly dramatic and fatalistic about his marriage.) Cultural context matters and I feel should be taken into consideration when offering advice.
That would be a societal norm. In general US and to a lesser extent European societal norms are to work till you are 65 yet this whole forum is dedicated to bucking this trend and people advocate for it here. If the societal norm there is for mothers to be SAHM, have childcare 6 days a week and a maid once a week(I seriously doubt this is the norm for all but the wealthiest in any country) then I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch for us to say hey even if this is a societal norm it isn't conducive to your goals and also isn't all that healthy, just like working till 67 is all that healthy.
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
Not necessarily, though I may live in the US I grew up in the Netherlands where the cost of childcare is much less of a concern and also stores aren't generally open late and have limited hours on weekends. Being on a forum that is all about bucking the social norms you are bound to get a response that doing something because it is a societal norm makes it acceptable is ridiculous.
It is a matter of no matter how you spin it having childcare 6 days a week and a maid leaves almost no actual work to do. It is an insult to all mothers like mine who managed to take care of more kids, on a much smaller income while working partite/fulltime.
You make a good point about bucking societal norms in general - but my post was more in response to those who are saying "6 days of daycare AND a maid AND SAHMing?! NOBODY DOES THAT!" to point out that nobody in America really does that. A lot of people responding here are being pretty intense, saying there is something wrong with the wife and calling her lazy, etc.
But their situation might be much more common in Israel and therefor our responses might seem really out of whack to the OP ( ie. we're being overly dramatic and fatalistic about his marriage.) Cultural context matters and I feel should be taken into consideration when offering advice.
He's never said they live in Israel. But even if they do - a woman who has day care 6 days a week and a maid once a week and a husband that comes home and takes care of the kids in addition - I don't care what culture you live in - that is lazy and disrespectful.
My apologies - I thought I remembered from a previous thread that that is where they lived. I must have had the wrong poster. Sorry about that.
It looks like you are correct though, took a quick look at his posting history and he does mention the tax rates in Israel so you are likely correct on that being where he lives.
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
Not necessarily, though I may live in the US I grew up in the Netherlands where the cost of childcare is much less of a concern and also stores aren't generally open late and have limited hours on weekends. Being on a forum that is all about bucking the social norms you are bound to get a response that doing something because it is a societal norm makes it acceptable is ridiculous.
It is a matter of no matter how you spin it having childcare 6 days a week and a maid leaves almost no actual work to do. It is an insult to all mothers like mine who managed to take care of more kids, on a much smaller income while working partite/fulltime.
You make a good point about bucking societal norms in general - but my post was more in response to those who are saying "6 days of daycare AND a maid AND SAHMing?! NOBODY DOES THAT!" to point out that nobody in America really does that. A lot of people responding here are being pretty intense, saying there is something wrong with the wife and calling her lazy, etc.
But their situation might be much more common in Israel and therefor our responses might seem really out of whack to the OP ( ie. we're being overly dramatic and fatalistic about his marriage.) Cultural context matters and I feel should be taken into consideration when offering advice.
That would be a societal norm. In general US and to a lesser extent European societal norms are to work till you are 65 yet this whole forum is dedicated to bucking this trend and people advocate for it here. If the societal norm there is for mothers to be SAHM, have childcare 6 days a week and a maid once a week(I seriously doubt this is the norm for all but the wealthiest in any country) then I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch for us to say hey even if this is a societal norm it isn't conducive to your goals and also isn't all that healthy, just like working till 67 is all that healthy.
I totally agree that they will be bucking the norm and we can definitely encourage that. But a lot of people aren't saying "this is not conducive to your goals" they are saying "Your wife is trophy wife" or she "is lazy and disrespectful." I'm saying it might not be the most helpful way of framing it. You might be insulting someone's whole culture.
We don't want to drive the OP off - we want to help him and his wife.
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I am the one that brought up them living in Israel after I looked at his previous posts. So if that is not the case, I apologize.
I don't necessarily think she is lazy (nothing in the posts suggest to me one way or the other). She was raised in an environment where her mom was a SAHM, possibly with maids/nanny/daycare (don't recall if he mentioned). She comes from money. She sees her mom and sister and the way they live. She probably sees some of the other women she grew up with that have these things so she sees these as normal. However, the OP comes from a working class (unless I misunderstood). He is trying very hard to make her wife happy by providing the life she is used to growing up. He needs a reality check as much as she does. He says he has a very good job. If with a very good job, they are not happy with their savings rate, what is the alternative? Is it more realistic for him to get a even better paying job or cut back on some of these expenses? If it is really hard to manage everything (kids and cleaning, etc), maybe keep the maid but cancel daycare. I understand she wants some time to herself too but it sounds like the OP already gives her that time when he gets home. Also, sending the kids to daycare just a few hours short of full time care and SIX days a week does not translate into a mom who wants stay at home to raise her kids herself. IMO she wants to be like the other moms, her mom, her sister, friends and the only way was to be a "SAHM" but slowly adjusted by adding daycare and maid. And now she is not happy with the savings even though she feels she sacrifices a lot (on what exactly?). She doesn't want to give up daycare/maid, she thinks savings is low, combined with already growing up with money just tells me THIS IS AN INCOME PROBLEM.
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
Not necessarily, though I may live in the US I grew up in the Netherlands where the cost of childcare is much less of a concern and also stores aren't generally open late and have limited hours on weekends. Being on a forum that is all about bucking the social norms you are bound to get a response that doing something because it is a societal norm makes it acceptable is ridiculous.
It is a matter of no matter how you spin it having childcare 6 days a week and a maid leaves almost no actual work to do. It is an insult to all mothers like mine who managed to take care of more kids, on a much smaller income while working partite/fulltime.
You make a good point about bucking societal norms in general - but my post was more in response to those who are saying "6 days of daycare AND a maid AND SAHMing?! NOBODY DOES THAT!" to point out that nobody in America really does that. A lot of people responding here are being pretty intense, saying there is something wrong with the wife and calling her lazy, etc.
But their situation might be much more common in Israel and therefor our responses might seem really out of whack to the OP ( ie. we're being overly dramatic and fatalistic about his marriage.) Cultural context matters and I feel should be taken into consideration when offering advice.
That would be a societal norm. In general US and to a lesser extent European societal norms are to work till you are 65 yet this whole forum is dedicated to bucking this trend and people advocate for it here. If the societal norm there is for mothers to be SAHM, have childcare 6 days a week and a maid once a week(I seriously doubt this is the norm for all but the wealthiest in any country) then I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch for us to say hey even if this is a societal norm it isn't conducive to your goals and also isn't all that healthy, just like working till 67 is all that healthy.
I totally agree that they will be bucking the norm and we can definitely encourage that. But a lot of people aren't saying "this is not conducive to your goals" they are saying "Your wife is trophy wife" or she "is lazy and disrespectful." I'm saying it might not be the most helpful way of framing it. You might be insulting someone's whole culture.
We don't want to drive the OP off - we want to help him and his wife.
Given that I was the one making the trophy wife comment and I suspect others made the similar comments for similar reasons as I did mine it is likely to try to shock the OP in to some kind of recognition of the facts. As I mentioned in my last direct response to the OP he needs to decide if he is just going to accept that he works full time to support his family and then comes home and helps more with the kids and around the house while effectively his wife is barely putting in part time work in this relationship while complaining about money. This is not an equal distribution of work in this relationship and he needs to realize this fully and decide if he is just going to accept this in which case he needs to just move on or if he deep down agrees that this is not fair he needs to do something about it and I think people here are trying to give him the needed kick in the pants to make this decision.
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ejh lives in Israel. He has 68 posts on this web site. Reading the others will give a lot more insight into the problems they are facing. His wife is from a family with a lot of money who are also high spenders. Her family continues to shower expensive gifts upon them. She is very unhappy with their situation (even though from the outside looking in it appears pretty good). She buys bottled mineral water and will not let the kids drink anything else. Everything he suggests to save money she takes as a personal attack. He basically segregates money out to give to her for certain things in "her" sphere.
They need to focus more on (1) figuring out what their goals are and (2) how to get to those goals together without this strife.
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theotherelise - Hi again.
I re-read your post. We actually used to budget together. I realized when we got married that it could help us a lot, and we stuck to it for 2 whole years. We would have monthly budget sessions and use YNAB for setting amounts. It was tiring, we would argue and have our differences, but I think it was a good process. I (partly) credit the fact that we could purchase a lovely apartment so early on to those sessions. Just for comparison - barley anyone our age has the financial means to do that in this market. The housing market here is much much different from the US.
We sort of lost track of that once the kids were born due to many factors, me being a part of that. We tried re-starting the process (my wife pushed for it by the way), about 6 months ago, but it was hard to stick to. Then she came forward with this idea that we implement now. Every week she takes out a specific amount of cash (about 20% of our income) and that's what she uses for her share of the expenses (such as, groceries, housekeeper, clothing for the family, baby care, drug store, feminine products, gifts, anything fun she wants to do and some more). I still take account of the rest of our expenses using YNAB. The first month or two she managed to save a whole lot from her allotted sum. Please note this does not mean I give her a limited amount of money as some sort of parent/child allowance. This is just a system where she feels can be easier to manage.
The past 2 months were a bit more of a struggle and this caused her frustration which prompted me to start this thread because I feel that these things go about in cycles and I would like to break this cycle.
What do you think of this?
Yeah, I think it's clear the cash allotment is not working well for you guys. It sounds like you've always had some difficulty communicating about money and budgeting and thought you'd eliminate the conflict by talking about it less with splitting up what you're responsible for. Unfortunately, that doesn't eliminate the conflict, it just lets it fester. I think you've got to at least start having a financial summit every quarter and deciding on that quarter's goals and spending targets. Having conflict is okay, you just have to communicate through the conflict and come to a resolution or compromise. It sounds like both of you are feeling some tension and trying to just be nice and not really get to the heart of the issue. I can imagine with two young children and so many life changes it would be tempting to want to avoid areas of conversation that could end in conflict. But it's not going to get better on your current trajectory.
I think there is room for a middle ground conversation on the maid. You've said here that you would happily take on the chores currently covered by the maid. Maybe you can bring this up to your wife at the next financial summit. The way you've described it, she is still doing a lot of homemaker duties even with the kids in daycare part of the day (cooking, daily cleaning, grocery shopping, laundry). So why don't you suggest a trial of no housekeeper or a trial of reduced housekeeping. Maybe you suggest trying for the next quarter to only have the housekeeper come in once a month for more deep cleaning of windows, floors, etc. Then you pledge to spend an hour each week doing the other duties.
For the record, I do believe some "fun money" is great. My husband and I each get $80/month of money to spend on whatever we would like. But we decide together about the rest of the money. People think budgets are limiting, but we really find it freeing to know we can spend some money without feeling guilty. I think if you and your wife get back to budgeting together then she will feel less guilt and tension over daily purchases.
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I don't know if that's the case, it may be.
My wife was at home with one or both of the kids until about 5 months ago. That is when my second kid went into daycare at age 1.5. Until then she was at home with either one or both, so if the notion came off that they have been in daycare since they were born, that's wrong.
It was difficult for both of us with both kids at young ages with all that's involved - caring, cooking, sick days, sleepless nights, etc. It was also a period of more emotional stress as we moved into a new house and had growing pains I think any regular family has. Newborns also mean conflicts regarding how to raise them and new situations we as a couple needed to learn together. All this causes stress as well. Why do I get the feeling this is a non-issue for many of the posters here?
Now since things are getting more relaxed and back into a more regular schedule we are looking for ways to move ahead. However, perhaps the past 2.5 years with all these changes has left emotional strain on my wife, and I am trying to get to the bottom of that.
I think if your wife isn’t depressed that she isn’t lazy, she might be caught up on the hedonic treadmill (look it up, cool theory). Perhaps she was so overwhelmed, she needed more ease/less work in her life to be happy, so you guys kept adding in ease trying to fix things – more daycare days/day care for both kids/etc, maid service, etc – and now she has adapted to this insanely high level of ease but is still unhappy, so she is searching for happiness elsewhere (ex: being able to spend more/save more/not budget). Like an alcoholic, you can definitely develop tolerance to your level of luxury/ease in life, and end up thinking that you are having a rough go of it even though nothing could be further from the truth. This is how even the most wealthy, stress free, easy living people can end up depressed and feeling shortchanged for no reason. It’s a bizarre human behavior and we all fall into it to some extent, but your wife may have an extreme case because you guys seem to have continued the vicious loop to a much higher level of luxury than most people do (6 days a week in daycare for a SAHM who doesn’t clean!? Holy cow!). As a result, it gets harder and harder for your wife to be content with anything more reasonable, and she gets angry and defensive because she feels she NEEDS this stuff. The truth is, she doesn’t need it, she has just adapted to it and feels like she does, but because this type of life is now her “bare minimum” she is perpetually unhappy. The hedonic treadmill takes something that is generally good – trying to make your life easier/happier – and twists it into something that can be far more damaging than being overworked sometimes.
The only way to get off the hedonic treadmill is to gain perspective, so you can appreciate what you do have and derive contentment from it. And how do you gain perspective? Well its counter intuitive, but she needs MORE “stress” and responsibility in her life. Yes. If you have daycare 6 days a week, you won’t appreciate it as much as if you only have it 2x a week, and over time, you will derive less and less satisfaction from having time to yourself. If she’s just tooling around not really doing anything constructive with her brain during her free time, she needs to start getting involved in something – part time work, charity/volunteering, etc – so she feels accomplished, and productive, and has variation in her routine. That way, on the days where she can just go out to lunch or relax, she enjoys it more than if she is doing that every day because she has nothing else more productive to do. If she is on the hedonic treadmill, cutting back daycare to 3x a week and forcing her to buck up and be busy on the other days could oddly enough help break her out of her funk.
In my experience, the happiest stay at home parents are those who WORK HARD on a daily basis, not the ones who have it easy with daily nannies, maids, etc and tons of relaxation and “self care” time. These are the ones with lots of kids, the ones who farm, the ones who are always doing some sort of labor – be it child care, home improvements, growing food, etc. It makes no sense at first because these people should be less happy given that they have far more going on, far more responsibility, and far more physicality to their day, but they always seem to be more content than the ones who are more like your wife. This is probably why women like Malum’s wife are so content – they are busy and productive and feel like they are contributing, and so they derive satisfaction from their lives and daily toils even though it is exhausting. Perhaps your wife could take a page out of their book and see if a harder life actually brings more contentment. Seriously, there is nothing to lose. If she can't stand it, she can always go back to daycare every day, but if she tries it for a month and likes it, then you have found a way to save money AND make her feel happier/more fulfilled. The trouble is, people on the hedonic treadmill are almost addicted to their level of luxury and generally balk at any suggestion to forgo what they now consider to be requirements for happiness (maids, daycare, nice things, etc). They only tend to recognize they can be just as happy, or happier, without all this stuff when something in life forces them to make do with less.
Good luck!
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I haven't read every response in this thread, but is it possible that OP's wife is just feeling temporarily discouraged? I sometimes get that way when I realize that despite my best efforts, things are not moving as fast as I hoped... I think most of us do.
In this case, if I were OP, I would simply listen, be sympathetic, and see if the wife comes up with some solutions on her own.
Also, having two toddlers is fortunately a temporary situation which will fix itself in a couple of years.
P.S. A tip for making the most of part-time childcare: avoid going on errands or doing housework while children are away. Use that childcare time for doing things you can't do with the kids, such as work that requires deep thought, working out, or (yes!) relaxing and self-care. While the kids are around, multi-task: take them with you shopping, or clean, or cook. Involve them in the work when you can. Things will get done slower, but it will teach and amuse the kids, and that way you get value out of your childcare, and can possibly cut down on the hours.
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I haven't read every response in this thread, but is it possible that OP's wife is just feeling temporarily discouraged? I sometimes get that way when I realize that despite my best efforts, things are not moving as fast as I hoped... I think most of us do.
In this case, if I were OP, I would simply listen, be sympathetic, and see if the wife comes up with some solutions on her own.
Also, having two toddlers is fortunately a temporary situation which will fix itself in a couple of years.
P.S. A tip for making the most of part-time childcare: avoid going on errands or doing housework while children are away. Use that childcare time for doing things you can't do with the kids, such as work that requires deep thought, working out, or (yes!) relaxing and self-care. While the kids are around, multi-task: take them with you shopping, or clean, or cook. Involve them in the work when you can. Things will get done slower, but it will teach and amuse the kids, and that way you get value out of your childcare, and can possibly cut down on the hours.
But he said in one of his posts that they want to have 4-5 kids. I don't see how that can ever possibly work. And when does the OP get to relax and self-care in this scenario?
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True that, I wouldn't go for more kids in this situation. Anyway it takes two to make more babies, so if OP is not in agreement they won't happen.
All I'm saying, is that maybe this is just reality beginning to sink in to OP's wife. She begins to see that their small economies are not doing the job. This is already a step... many people don't see this. Now, what she chooses to do with that knowledge is up to her. IME, when a person is at that point, it's better to let them take ownership of the solution. She'll give up the cleaner or childcare with less resentment if she thinks of it herself and offers it as a gift to the family, than if she is urged to by her husband. Or she'll go back to work. Or she'll leave OP for a richer man. Or she'll stick her head back in the sand, but at that point OP should know enough not to father any more kids if he values the family's solvency.
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ejh, I'm sorry so many of these posts have gone in the traditional MMM-"you just need a facepunch to wake you up and then you can make drastic life changes overnight!" direction. That attitude does draw many of us here, and it works for many people too--especially young, single people! :)
+1 to everything Poundwise said above.
We are just going on the basic, one-sided information that you have provided, and only you can talk with your wife to find out what the best course forward is. We can't tell if this is just normal discouragement, in which case reminding her that each $10 savings adds up over time and that this is just a normal stage in the savings process might help, or remind her of how the savings you have done so far has enabled things that are out of reach for your peers, or suggest a happy picture (of a goal perhaps?) that gets coloured in a bit more every time you BOTH save $50 or whatever. Or figure out some milestones to mark together with rewards to look forward to. So, when $5000 has been saved, you get to treat yourselves to a special event or spa day or whatever. Set goals that you both want to acheive and celebrate that progress, instead of having it be demoralizing in it's small steps.
If you are concerned that it's more than that, and that she may be suffering with depression or could use some support in another way, then please do some research about counselling that may be available in your area. Life transitions can be emotionally difficult, no matter how logically our situation may be fine.
Others have good suggestions about ways to potentially manage the finances. If it's true that the daycare and maid are costing $1200/mo and that this is a big chunk of your budget, it might be useful just to look at the overall budget together and figure out what the biggest expenses are that are meaning that her penny-pinching doesn't add up to very much. Then, you talk about each of those large expenses and decide how much value you are getting out of them. Daycare may be providing a LOT of value right now. Then you both accept that this choice decreases the amount available to save, during these few years while daycare is important. It won't be a permanent expense; your budget and savings will change.
But it sounds like supporting your wife AND yourself to make peace with the realities of your expenses and choices during this phase of life might help you both. Just keep reminding yourselves that you are in control of ALL of these decisions, that all of your budget items are trade-offs, and that you simply have to find the right balance for any given phase of life. If you are saving, you WILL come out ahead over time. And it's normal and ok to be frustrated along the way.
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All I'm saying, is that maybe this is just reality beginning to sink in to OP's wife. She begins to see that their small economies are not doing the job. This is already a step... many people don't see this. Now, what she chooses to do with that knowledge is up to her. IME, when a person is at that point, it's better to let them take ownership of the solution. She'll give up the cleaner or childcare with less resentment if she thinks of it herself and offers it as a gift to the family, than if she is urged to by her husband. Or she'll go back to work. Or she'll leave OP for a richer man. Or she'll stick her head back in the sand, but at that point OP should know enough not to father any more kids if he values the family's solvency.
+1
This is the crux of the matter. Constantly making decisions to economize clothing purchases or exactly which groceries to buy is difficult and takes a lot of energy, and it isn't leading to significant results. That's because these small things aren't the problem. Housing, transportation, and childcare drive the budget. And Income. Everything else is at the margins. Making changes will require big changes to big things. No one likes that realization. It can be depressing. The choice is make changes, or accept the effect of the choices you've made.
BTW, this is the insight of MMM, but in some ways it is deeply hidden, particularly the housing part. If you get the big stuff right, the rest is easy. If you don't, it's hard.
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So did we find out where OP lives?
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What i really like about this thread is the respectful voice op uses when talking about his wife. And defending her from all these attacks. Nice work op. Your wife is a lucky woman.
But societal norms aside, you will have to sit down with your wife and discuss your future. You are hanging out on these forums, does it mean that you are interested in early retirement and living a simpler life? Is she interested in this lifestyle? Does she understand what it means for your current lifestyle? Can you do it together?
If she is on board, your life will be so much easier. That's why i recommended reading (together) Your money or your life. It takes a while until the message sinks in, but after that life gets easier as the values and priorities shifts.
If she is on board, you can have another discussion to see how you can get there. If she is not, you have a few options:
1.give up your dream, no hard feelings, as family is more important.
2. Give up your dream, bitterly, which will poison your relationship and will cause resentment forever.
For the record, i work part time. We don't necessarily need the money, but it was good for my sanity to get out of the house and away from the toddlers, when every day is groundhog day. Those childcare places are horrible places though. If we are struggling to look after our beloved 2 kids, how do we expect an uneducated underpaid woman to look after 8-12 of them? What sort of care they provide? Childcare is good for the kids above 3yo, but under 3 all they need is the loving attention of a parent (or in a worst case scenario, a carer =adult they are attached to) and a few play dates. Anything else is suboptimal unfortunately. Hence my part time work. I became a better, more patient mother on my mommy days, because i appreciated those days much more. And i am proud to keep a house where everyone can drop in unexpectedly.
We are in a position now, when we are getting closer to Fire, and my income definitely helps. I clean and cook on my 2 days off and taxi the kids to their afterschool activities. It is a great feeling to know that if something happened to my husband's much better paying job, my income will keep us afloat. And i would feel horrible if i stayed at home sipping lattes while he is stuck at his stressful job. We are in it together.
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To give an answer from a non-US perspective:
Background: In Norway, few others than the conservative christians and muslims keep their kids at home for more than the 12 months of parent leave the state pays for. Some are able to stretch the leave for an additional 6-12 months (vacation days, unpaid leave, part time work, etc). This is also accepted. But when the kid is 2, people will assume you belong to a religious minority group if you don't let the kid go to at least part time kindergarten. And at age 4-5, someone from the municipality might show up and offer a free ride at the closest kindergarten, "to make sure the child is prepared for school". Full time kindergarten is capped at around $400/month, with discounts for low income parents. There are strict limits for number of children per adult, and minimum number of employees with relevant education. All the kids are well cared for, also the smallest ones.This means that there are no kids or SAHMs to socialize with, if you do decide to stay at home.
Based on my cultural background, I find it completely logical to have the kids in kindergarten regardless of what the parents do, because that is good for the kids. My kids loved kindergarten; their friends, the extra adults who loved and cared for them, learning all the thinks we couldn't teach them... And in the same way, I will always have to think twice about parents who stay home only to take care of house and children, because my experience of maternity leave showed me so very clearly that wasn't for me. After a few months, I had started a blog, and found five ways to work online from home.
My kids are born 16 months apart, the second one with a disability we knew from birth, the oldest with a diagnosis from age 3. Both DH and I worked part time, stretched our paid leave as much as possible, and found work to do from home. Having two toddlers was hell, even when they were in kindergarten most of the days. Having a life apart from caring for them is what saved my sanity.
I won't judge your wife, OP. But I will urge you to talk with her about other interests she has, and how she can set aside time for them, whether they include making money or not. I have also tried to fill my days with busywork and errands, and after a while, even planning one (stupid) errand can take a whole day and feel exhausting. The funny thing is, that if you have more on you schedule, these same errands only take 10 minutes and zero mental capacity.
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Those childcare places are horrible places though. If we are struggling to look after our beloved 2 kids, how do we expect an uneducated underpaid woman to look after 8-12 of them? What sort of care they provide?
I'm an early childhood researcher. I spend most of my professional working hours studying early care and education. It's not often I get to pull out my expert cred, but I'm definitely going to do it now to state that this is an absolute falsehood. If you want to stay home with your kids, great!, I'm glad you have the opportunity to structure your family in a way that works for you. Keep the rest of your judgemental, offensive and utterly ignorant opinions about other people's life choices to yourself.
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Those childcare places are horrible places though. If we are struggling to look after our beloved 2 kids, how do we expect an uneducated underpaid woman to look after 8-12 of them? What sort of care they provide?
I'm an early childhood researcher. I spend most of my professional working hours studying early care and education. It's not often I get to pull out my expert cred, but I'm definitely going to do it now to state that this is an absolute falsehood. If you want to stay home with your kids, great!, I'm glad you have the opportunity to structure your family in a way that works for you. Keep the rest of your judgemental, offensive and utterly ignorant opinions about other people's life choices to yourself.
Thank you for this.
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Those childcare places are horrible places though. If we are struggling to look after our beloved 2 kids, how do we expect an uneducated underpaid woman to look after 8-12 of them? What sort of care they provide?
I'm an early childhood researcher. I spend most of my professional working hours studying early care and education. It's not often I get to pull out my expert cred, but I'm definitely going to do it now to state that this is an absolute falsehood. If you want to stay home with your kids, great!, I'm glad you have the opportunity to structure your family in a way that works for you. Keep the rest of your judgemental, offensive and utterly ignorant opinions about other people's life choices to yourself.
Well, this is not the place to argue about this, but what part was judgemental, offensive and ignorant? Please.
I might not be a researcher (just a trained teacher), who experienced those childcare places from the parents perspective in the past 7 years.
Uneducated-around here they need a 6 month 'diploma' to qualify them as an early childhood educator. Hm? They are also able to work in childcare centres if they are enrolled in these training programs.
And let me tell you, i might not have done extensive research and did not read and write a larger than usual pile on the topic, but i saw the good, the bad and the ugly during those 7 years. 4 childcare centres, so i might have only a small perspective.. . It is not raindrops and roses, so i stand by my comments. Some of those places were truly horrible and the people unsuitable for the job.There were a few lovely ladies around, but some of those people and places we experienced still make me shudder. It took me a while until i found the place where i could happily leave the kids.
So save that vitriol for the scholarly papers and maybe the truly horrible childcare places you might encounter during your extensive reasearch. I am happy to have a civilized discussion about my experience somewhere else, we really shouldn't dump that here. Poor op has enough on his plate.
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I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences at play here that are not translating well in this forum. If the OP is in Israel then cultural differences could explain both the child care and daily errand running.
For instance we knew some parents at our daycare who came from Israel and I also have a couple of American friends that have moved to Haifa.
Our Israeli friends in the US put their little ones in daycare at age 1 basically for socialization but the wife still stayed at home. What they said is that everyone sends their kids to "school" early and it is an important part of creating community - children learn to socialize early and well. She also told me told me it is quite common for stay-at-home parents to put their toddlers in care full time.
My American friends in Haifa have said they go to market a lot more than they did in the US (for meat, produce etc). Also I believe stores are all closed on Saturday so that takes out a whole day that Americans consider fairly sacred for errands :)
If the OP's wife only has the kids' in care half days and and running her errands/getting community time in half the time of those around her it may indeed feel like she is already bucking societal norms to try and save money.
I feel like a lot of these responses are coming from a very US-centric perspective.
Not necessarily, though I may live in the US I grew up in the Netherlands where the cost of childcare is much less of a concern and also stores aren't generally open late and have limited hours on weekends. Being on a forum that is all about bucking the social norms you are bound to get a response that doing something because it is a societal norm makes it acceptable is ridiculous.
It is a matter of no matter how you spin it having childcare 6 days a week and a maid leaves almost no actual work to do. It is an insult to all mothers like mine who managed to take care of more kids, on a much smaller income while working partite/fulltime.
You make a good point about bucking societal norms in general - but my post was more in response to those who are saying "6 days of daycare AND a maid AND SAHMing?! NOBODY DOES THAT!" to point out that nobody in America really does that. A lot of people responding here are being pretty intense, saying there is something wrong with the wife and calling her lazy, etc.
But their situation might be much more common in Israel and therefor our responses might seem really out of whack to the OP ( ie. we're being overly dramatic and fatalistic about his marriage.) Cultural context matters and I feel should be taken into consideration when offering advice.
I recall a conversation I had with an Israeli friend several years ago. She said that whereas in the US, there is pressure and judgment on parents (moms, mostly) who put their kids in daycare rather than SAH with them, in Israel it is the opposite Instead of "you put your kids in one of those awful places and let other people raise your child??!!?!", it's , "You selfishly keep your child home with you rather than offer him the educational and social benefits of day care??!!?!". It is considered depriving kids of necessary and beneficial social interaction to not have kids in daycare. While this was only one conversation with one Israeli, this thread suggests to me she may have been spot on about her take on the subject. (OP, is Israeli, I believe...?) This cultural difference may well be at play here.
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As someone suffering from serious depression and anxiety, reading through this thread...
I'd ask if deep down, your wife is doing the SAHM thing because that is what she thinks she should be doing. I would also question whether she really wants to have lots of kids and be a full time mother... because she feels that this is what a woman is supposed to do, because this is what she sees from her own family experience, and it is what you and she decided on. And this is not something she should just blurt out "of course that's what I want!" because she can absolutely think that on the surface, but without some serious, meditative thought on the current state of her life, her unhappiness and why exactly she is unhappy (hint: it's not about money) then she's possibly lying to herself more than anything. We've all likely done this, and it's nothing to be ashamed about either.
The general feeling I get is that she is doing things that are expected of her, but what is missing for her is that she wants to be an independent, free woman, and her wants/needs aren't being met by being a SAH parent, and she is feeling trapped into a life she planned for (wife/mother), but isn't as fulfilling as she expected, so there is panic about the future, sadness/shame about being so disappointed in herself for not being happy with her decision, and a need to fix it somewhat by moving blame to others (or lack of material things) so she doesn't feel so responsible for her decision.
None of this is meant to sound like I'm judging her. It is absolutely not something she can help if she is feeling this way. She's actually trying to power through her feelings and hold the line, and I think that is very noble of her. The thing is, it likely is also making her feel even more guilty and sad trying to stay the course and scrambling to find outside things to fix the situation.
This was very good. I am not a SAHM and never wanted to be. But choosing to be a working parent is hard, even when you know it's right.
Because I am being judged. Coworkers, neighbors, friends. There are VERY few people who don't judge me at all. Some of them don't even mean it.
"You mean you are still working?"
"Why can't you make a 10 am musical performance?"
"You worked from home on a holiday?"
I imagine if she was raised a certain way, it's even harder when she's being judged by family. My mother used to judge my SIL. She would say things like "Your brother is SO GOOD with those girls. He does so much with them. Takes care of them, gives baths, etc., comes and visits. SIL does so little, always working, I never see her." News flash mom: 1. Brother works 32 hours a week and makes less than half what his wife does. 2. Brother is off work by noon every day. 3. Brother comes to visit you because he likes a little help. 4. SIL goes to HER MOM'S house when she is off.
My very own mother would say, ad nauseum, that "all she ever wanted was to be a stay at home mom". She had a baby out of wedlock. Married my dad, a widower with kids. It was not a good marriage. He was not a nice guy. Lived with the Catholic guilt of disappointing her parents (who wanted her to be a nun). Had to live on a pretty tight budget being married to my dad and it was HARD. Went back to work when I was 11, part time.
Always said she hated working. Divorced my dad, went full time. As much as she said she hated it (worked hard, boss was a tool, got paid less than half what he did), I had NEVER seen her MORE HAPPY than when we were living in that trailer and she didn't have any responsibilities to anybody but herself, and me ( and I was 16). Even though she felt guilty that my brother stayed with dad.
Remarried. Wonderful guy but she "didn't love him when she married him". Quit work eventually. Went into a deep deep depression, STILL INSISTING that all she wanted was to be a wife. But here's the thing. She was on a budget again. An unnecessarily tight budget for the income, but she married a guy who was in his 40s and had always spent what he wanted. So SHE had to figure out how to live to HIS budget.
Her desire to be "a wife and mother" warred with the difficulty of living on a budget when *she* wasn't bringing in any money. And thus felt that she didn't have as much say. Now, with all of that and the Catholic guilt, it was a long spiral into depression and alcoholism, which killed her. I honestly think a part time job, where she just clocked in and out and worked, would have been best. She was offered one, but stressed about taking vacation. It was very sad.
Thanks for sharing this story. I'm a lot like your mum.
Good luck OP, this sounds to me like a deep psychological issue of your wife's expectations & world view.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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Those childcare places are horrible places though. If we are struggling to look after our beloved 2 kids, how do we expect an uneducated underpaid woman to look after 8-12 of them? What sort of care they provide?
I'm an early childhood researcher. I spend most of my professional working hours studying early care and education. It's not often I get to pull out my expert cred, but I'm definitely going to do it now to state that this is an absolute falsehood. If you want to stay home with your kids, great!, I'm glad you have the opportunity to structure your family in a way that works for you. Keep the rest of your judgemental, offensive and utterly ignorant opinions about other people's life choices to yourself.
Just to pile on here, the idea of day care as "your child raised by strangers" is absurd. My son has been in day care since he was about 12 weeks old, and he's always had loving people taking care of him when he's there. The idea that the kids don't form real, meaningful bonds with their day care teachers is crazy. He loves his teachers, and they love him back, and I'm glad he has trustworthy adults in his life outside of family.
Hell, one of the teachers at his center took care of ME when I was a toddler. Experiences other places may be different, but I've never once worried about who's taking care of my child, or I would've made different choices.
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How about we all agree that there are daycares that do their best, and ones that don't, and that the same goes for stay-at-home parents of small children.
Then, let's try to focus on how OP and his wife can have a happy family.
OP, I still want to know if your kids are respectful towards your wife, and you. I think if not, working on that could make a big difference in happiness.
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How about we all agree that there are daycares that do their best, and ones that don't, and that the same goes for stay-at-home parents of small children.
Then, let's try to focus on how OP and his wife can have a happy family.
OP, I still want to know if your kids are respectful towards your wife, and you. I think if not, working on that could make a big difference in happiness.
Agreed, but I feel outraged when I read stupid comments about daycare like "letting someone else raise your kid" or that they are horrible places. When we do that we do make parents feel like one of them has to stay home even if they aren't happy. And that's usually the mother that ends up doing it.
I am 110% sure that my children have had better care from others than they would have gotten from me full time at home. It does hurt to admit that, but it is true. If I had been parenting in the 50's I would have had a bottle of gin in one apron pocket and valium in the other.
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Those childcare places are horrible places though. If we are struggling to look after our beloved 2 kids, how do we expect an uneducated underpaid woman to look after 8-12 of them? What sort of care they provide?
I'm an early childhood researcher. I spend most of my professional working hours studying early care and education. It's not often I get to pull out my expert cred, but I'm definitely going to do it now to state that this is an absolute falsehood. If you want to stay home with your kids, great!, I'm glad you have the opportunity to structure your family in a way that works for you. Keep the rest of your judgemental, offensive and utterly ignorant opinions about other people's life choices to yourself.
Thank you. This and Iplawyer's assertions that people who use daycare aren't raising their own children should be called out for the BS it is.
I raised two very successful, happy, well adjusted kids and dh and I worked full time outside the home. My college kid is still close friends with some of her daycare buddies, and both of my kids go back to visit my childcare provider on a regular basis. They had much more fun there than they ever would have had if I had no options and was forced to be a SAHM.
There is no evidence that children in good quality daycare have worse outcomes than kids with SAHPs.
But that's not the issue here in any event.
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So save that vitriol for the scholarly papers and maybe the truly horrible childcare places you might encounter during your extensive reasearch. I am happy to have a civilized discussion about my experience somewhere else, we really shouldn't dump that here. Poor op has enough on his plate.
Were there some edited posts I didn't see? It appears to me that the only vitriol regarding childcare centers in the above thread is from you.
It's been well established that children in care grow up to be just as successful (or unsuccessful, as the case may be) as children with stay at home parents. Obviously there are bad childcare centers. And there are great childcare centers. Just as there are people who are just not great parents. And people that are great parents.
It's great that you spent time looking at centers to find one that you want to leave your child at. You're a good parent. Your children's success does not depend on whether or not you stay home with them.
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So did we find out where OP lives?
See post #160
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Adding to the part about cultural differences, Israel has a 6 day work week. Americans take for granted having a Sat-Sun weekend. In Israel, Sunday is a regular work/school day (that's why the daycare would be 6 days/wk). Sat is Shabbat, so depending on how observant the OP is and/or where they live, it's simply not possible to do household chores or errands (and outside shopping) on this day. Transit shuts down. Stores are closed. etc. This is a really big deal.
Other random cultural notes:
Like in European countries, appliances are smaller than American counterparts. This includes washing machine and refrigerators. With 2 small children, doing laundry takes longer. You shop more often because you don't store as much food. Dishwashers are not as common. The environment has a lot more dust/dirt, so you have to clean more often for the same level of cleanliness. 2 car ownership much less common (even 1 car less common). Depending on where they live, errands are more likely to be on foot or by bus, and though there is normative supermarket delivery service, food shopping takes longer and you would buy less at once.
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There are many other cultural differences, but these are common ones I experienced when I lived in Israel. For all the posters calling the OP's wife "spoiled" and "lazy," maybe consider the fact that your household and cultural presumptions don't translate. That doesn't mean there isn't room for OP and his wife to improve, or an underlying problem with consumption to address. However, this "I/my spouse does X, so you're ridiculous" doesn't make a lot of sense here.
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Adding to the part about cultural differences, Israel has a 6 day work week. Americans take for granted having a Sat-Sun weekend. In Israel, Sunday is a regular work/school day (that's why the daycare would be 6 days/wk). Sat is Shabbat, so depending on how observant the OP is and/or where they live, it's simply not possible to do household chores or errands (and outside shopping) on this day. Transit shuts down. Stores are closed. etc. This is a really big deal.
... And not just Saturday for Shabbat. When we were there, it seemed like by mid-afternoon on Friday, everything was starting to wind down, because Shabbat starts at sunset. Maybe varies by time of year, but when we were there, nothing much on the tour was planned after lunch on Friday.
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Those childcare places are horrible places though. If we are struggling to look after our beloved 2 kids, how do we expect an uneducated underpaid woman to look after 8-12 of them? What sort of care they provide?
I'm an early childhood researcher. I spend most of my professional working hours studying early care and education. It's not often I get to pull out my expert cred, but I'm definitely going to do it now to state that this is an absolute falsehood. If you want to stay home with your kids, great!, I'm glad you have the opportunity to structure your family in a way that works for you. Keep the rest of your judgemental, offensive and utterly ignorant opinions about other people's life choices to yourself.
Bee21's post was bizarre, to say the least. It starts out commending the OP for being respectful when referring to his wife (very nice) and then devolves into a sexist tirade painting broad strokes about how horrible "those childcare places" are.
Isn't the who works/who takes care of the children the job of all parents? And speaking from my own experience, the "childcare places" my own kids attended had both male and female employees. Primarily female yes, and not terribly well paid, but some really, really wonderful people are involved in early childhood education. It's great to stay home and take care of your kids if you can afford to and that's what you want. And it' also OK to work full time, part time, whatever works for you and your own family circumstance. Whether you're a male or female parent. Sheesh. This never ends.
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Adding to the part about cultural differences, Israel has a 6 day work week. Americans take for granted having a Sat-Sun weekend. In Israel, Sunday is a regular work/school day (that's why the daycare would be 6 days/wk). Sat is Shabbat, so depending on how observant the OP is and/or where they live, it's simply not possible to do household chores or errands (and outside shopping) on this day. Transit shuts down. Stores are closed. etc. This is a really big deal.
... And not just Saturday for Shabbat. When we were there, it seemed like by mid-afternoon on Friday, everything was starting to wind down, because Shabbat starts at sunset. Maybe varies by time of year, but when we were there, nothing much on the tour was planned after lunch on Friday.
Yup, things begin to shut down on Friday afternoon. How early/late depends on season.
For people who observe Shabbat, Friday (and even Thurs night) is a time for preparation. Shopping, cooking, etc. (because you can't cook on Shabbat). Then it is normative to host guests and eat festive style multi-course meals. This is not true for everyone, but many observant families will basically prep the equivalent of an American holiday meal every single week.
This influences how time is spent and how money is spent. There is an attitude that things should be nicer for Shabbat - food, clothing, specialty or decorative items used directly or indirectly for ritual purposes. On one hand, I understand how spiritual experiences are elevated. On the other hand, I witnessed a lot of crass consumption and materialism that is justified as though the religion mandates it, as opposed to cultural norms (<- hardly the only religious group to do this!)
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For all the posters calling the OP's wife "spoiled" and "lazy," maybe consider the fact that your household and cultural presumptions don't translate. That doesn't mean there isn't room for OP and his wife to improve, or an underlying problem with consumption to address. However, this "I/my spouse does X, so you're ridiculous" doesn't make a lot of sense here.
This is what I was trying to get at and you said it so much more eloquently - thanks!
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For all the posters calling the OP's wife "spoiled" and "lazy," maybe consider the fact that your household and cultural presumptions don't translate. That doesn't mean there isn't room for OP and his wife to improve, or an underlying problem with consumption to address. However, this "I/my spouse does X, so you're ridiculous" doesn't make a lot of sense here.
This is what I was trying to get at and you said it so much more eloquently - thanks!
Hmmm…I guess given the cultural differences a better question for the OP is:
How normal is it for stay at home Israeli moms to have weekly maids and 6 day daycare? Is that the standard/typical expectation for non working parents in Israel? If such an arrangement is still extravagant by Israeli standards, then unfortunately OP still has a problem with his wife's unrealistic expectations. If it is standard for stay at home parents to have these arrangements, then it makes sense she feels like these are “must haves”.
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So people with full time jobs work 6 days a week in Israel? That's why daycares are open 6 days a week?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the OP working full time while his wife stays home, sends their toddlers to daycare and has a maid as long as everyone is happy. Since someone is not happy (the wife), then they need to change something. Lots of options have been discussed here. I'm interested to see what the OP's wife thinks of our ideas?
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I tend to find that when we see people behave in ways we think are ludicrous that it is eye-opening to ultimately find out where others are coming from and they always do have a rationale for why they do things (even though we might find their logic flawed). We have 2 incomes and a 3 year old who goes to preschool. We love the setup and talk often that we would struggle with a one income/SAHP situation. We have seen the tendency toward the income earner feeling like they control the money since they make it and the SAHP feels powerless.
Here are 2 of my observations:
1. I think that you both have preconceived notions of what men and women should be doing for the family. It sounds like you are somewhat flexible as long as she is happy, but you may have some biases you have shared along the way to let her know you also think she should stay at home. Many parents are not built to stay at home with kids and we have had several friends struggle with depression because they were trying to fill a role that doesn't fit them. I agree with an earlier post that this struggle can be very tough for women who often are told from birth that is what they are made to do. Try to talk to her about what truly makes her happy.
2. I hear a hint of "I make the money and here is your allowance" in the posts I have read (even if that is not intended). I personally think that my wife and I would both struggle with this if we were the sole bread-winner. It creates a power imbalance that is very hard to overcome. From her point of view I see that her husband makes the money and all she has the power to do is spend it. Therefore she can only contribute in a negative way and every time she spends money she feels guilty. She doesn't sound lazy to me at all, I think she just isn't totally fulfilled by staying at home like some are (which I totally understand). I would look for ways to empower her if possible. She is at home and may have more time anyway, why not have her take control of the finances and give you an allowance? It might be worth a try. See if she can do a better job with it than you currently are. I'm sure you married a very capable person who is just struggling with the current role she is playing. I will also echo that you are probably at the most difficult stage you will be in financially. Hang in there!
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Before we tie up his wife and burn her at the stake for being a lazy spoiled princess, lets remember that any time someone comes to the forum they are describing their situation from their point of view. We are hearing the truth from his perspective, but we can't really know all of the issue unless we also hear her perspective.
I'm confident if my wife and I wrote about a conflict we were having the stories would look quite different, even if both of them were true (which they both could be).
Perhaps she is a terrible person worthy of divorce (probably not), but lets give her the benefit of the doubt for now. The fact that she is trying to improve but is becoming frustrated I take as a good sign, it means she cares enough to care about it.
She seems like a typical person to me. She has adapted to a lifestyle and is experiencing pain trying to cut back. She looks at every spending decision as deprivation. YMOYL would be a great book from her to read.
This is a fascinating thread from a psychology perspective.
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Living overseas is a bit more complicated. When I was in China, DW stayed home and DD went to daycare/kindergarten 5 days a week. We also had a maid that cooked and cleaned everyday. The maid also did meal planning and grocery shopping. Seems like par for the course for expats, and is certainly the norm when I was there. Many also had drivers, which we did not have.
Back in states now and back to normal :)
All a matter of perspective.
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If I could change one thing about your situation right now, I would get you and your wife thinking about being grateful. Your wife is trying to learn how to do something that doesn't come easy to her. The situation is not how she grew up, and all her unexamined assumptions about how to organize a life are being questioned. Make sure she knows how thankful you are that she is doing the best she knows how right now and that furthermore she is willing to change. And on the other hand, if I had a magic wand I would somehow infuse your wife with a deep gratitude that you are working so hard, and providing so well, that she has the option to stay home with the children.
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Yes things are different in other countries. But not everyone even in those countries have maids, etc, still depends on income levels. In OP's case, there is unhappiness due to low savings and his wife feels she is sacrificing so much (still have no idea what she is sacrificing?) for a little savings. Well there is a solution, which is stay at home with the kids (the reason she quit her job) and $1000/month can be saved. If they are not willing to do that, then they need to just accept their situation. It is not rocket science, if you are not happy with your situation, just change it. This is not one of those things with no other options.
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I think, if you refrain form having any more children, many things will become easier.
The daycare expenses will fade away after a few years. Your wife's stress level will decrease because older kids are so much easier to care for. Just don't have any more babies, and work on making yourselves happy and your relationship stronger.
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I don't know if that's the case, it may be.
My wife was at home with one or both of the kids until about 5 months ago. That is when my second kid went into daycare at age 1.5. Until then she was at home with either one or both, so if the notion came off that they have been in daycare since they were born, that's wrong.
It was difficult for both of us with both kids at young ages with all that's involved - caring, cooking, sick days, sleepless nights, etc. It was also a period of more emotional stress as we moved into a new house and had growing pains I think any regular family has. Newborns also mean conflicts regarding how to raise them and new situations we as a couple needed to learn together. All this causes stress as well. Why do I get the feeling this is a non-issue for many of the posters here?
Now since things are getting more relaxed and back into a more regular schedule we are looking for ways to move ahead. However, perhaps the past 2.5 years with all these changes has left emotional strain on my wife, and I am trying to get to the bottom of that.
I think if your wife isn’t depressed that she isn’t lazy, she might be caught up on the hedonic treadmill (look it up, cool theory). Perhaps she was so overwhelmed, she needed more ease/less work in her life to be happy, so you guys kept adding in ease trying to fix things – more daycare days/day care for both kids/etc, maid service, etc – and now she has adapted to this insanely high level of ease but is still unhappy, so she is searching for happiness elsewhere (ex: being able to spend more/save more/not budget). Like an alcoholic, you can definitely develop tolerance to your level of luxury/ease in life, and end up thinking that you are having a rough go of it even though nothing could be further from the truth. This is how even the most wealthy, stress free, easy living people can end up depressed and feeling shortchanged for no reason. It’s a bizarre human behavior and we all fall into it to some extent, but your wife may have an extreme case because you guys seem to have continued the vicious loop to a much higher level of luxury than most people do (6 days a week in daycare for a SAHM who doesn’t clean!? Holy cow!). As a result, it gets harder and harder for your wife to be content with anything more reasonable, and she gets angry and defensive because she feels she NEEDS this stuff. The truth is, she doesn’t need it, she has just adapted to it and feels like she does, but because this type of life is now her “bare minimum” she is perpetually unhappy. The hedonic treadmill takes something that is generally good – trying to make your life easier/happier – and twists it into something that can be far more damaging than being overworked sometimes.
The only way to get off the hedonic treadmill is to gain perspective, so you can appreciate what you do have and derive contentment from it. And how do you gain perspective? Well its counter intuitive, but she needs MORE “stress” and responsibility in her life. Yes. If you have daycare 6 days a week, you won’t appreciate it as much as if you only have it 2x a week, and over time, you will derive less and less satisfaction from having time to yourself. If she’s just tooling around not really doing anything constructive with her brain during her free time, she needs to start getting involved in something – part time work, charity/volunteering, etc – so she feels accomplished, and productive, and has variation in her routine. That way, on the days where she can just go out to lunch or relax, she enjoys it more than if she is doing that every day because she has nothing else more productive to do. If she is on the hedonic treadmill, cutting back daycare to 3x a week and forcing her to buck up and be busy on the other days could oddly enough help break her out of her funk.
In my experience, the happiest stay at home parents are those who WORK HARD on a daily basis, not the ones who have it easy with daily nannies, maids, etc and tons of relaxation and “self care” time. These are the ones with lots of kids, the ones who farm, the ones who are always doing some sort of labor – be it child care, home improvements, growing food, etc. It makes no sense at first because these people should be less happy given that they have far more going on, far more responsibility, and far more physicality to their day, but they always seem to be more content than the ones who are more like your wife. This is probably why women like Malum’s wife are so content – they are busy and productive and feel like they are contributing, and so they derive satisfaction from their lives and daily toils even though it is exhausting. Perhaps your wife could take a page out of their book and see if a harder life actually brings more contentment. Seriously, there is nothing to lose. If she can't stand it, she can always go back to daycare every day, but if she tries it for a month and likes it, then you have found a way to save money AND make her feel happier/more fulfilled. The trouble is, people on the hedonic treadmill are almost addicted to their level of luxury and generally balk at any suggestion to forgo what they now consider to be requirements for happiness (maids, daycare, nice things, etc). They only tend to recognize they can be just as happy, or happier, without all this stuff when something in life forces them to make do with less.
Good luck!
+1 This is awesome, and in my experience, so true. Thanks for the reminder. And in fact, I'm often overwhelmed with my children and to fix it, I'm considering homeschooling them. Which is counter-intuitive, but just might work!
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For all the posters calling the OP's wife "spoiled" and "lazy," maybe consider the fact that your household and cultural presumptions don't translate. That doesn't mean there isn't room for OP and his wife to improve, or an underlying problem with consumption to address. However, this "I/my spouse does X, so you're ridiculous" doesn't make a lot of sense here.
This is what I was trying to get at and you said it so much more eloquently - thanks!
Hmmm…I guess given the cultural differences a better question for the OP is:
How normal is it for stay at home Israeli moms to have weekly maids and 6 day daycare? Is that the standard/typical expectation for non working parents in Israel? If such an arrangement is still extravagant by Israeli standards, then unfortunately OP still has a problem with his wife's unrealistic expectations. If it is standard for stay at home parents to have these arrangements, then it makes sense she feels like these are “must haves”.
Very very very abnormal.
The minimum wage is approx 1000$, less than what the op spends on daycare iirc, which is a normal amount btw. 250$ should buy 4-5 hours a week of cleaning. After taxes, the median wage is less than 1700$, and even with government assistance 95% of families can barely afford either daycare or a single income.
Most families in Israel cannot even fathom living on one income + maid + daycare. If that is where the OP lives, (a) he should post a case study, and (b) the wife needs a serious reality check.
<The OP has chosen not to comment about where he lives, and I respect that, but what's being said here about Israel so far is pretty anecdotal>