Author Topic: SO is frugal but uninterested  (Read 7326 times)

JanF

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SO is frugal but uninterested
« on: July 11, 2017, 01:25:07 PM »
I got really into MMM this year and I'm putting in a lot more effort into it. Together my husband and I cleared my student loan and the only debt we have is my credit card (almost gone) and his car payment (which we took to make his "borrowing history" look better for mortgage loans in the future). In all we should be debt free by next year if not sooner and we'll have a nice size down payment.
So in term of spending and saving we're on the right track. The problem that I have is when it comes to investments, he's 100% not interested in learning about it. He's very on board with FIRE but expects me to handle all the numbers which I'm perfectly fine with but should I be concern that he doesn't care where his money goes? If I'm not here I'm pretty sure his investment strategy is to put them all in a 0.01% savings account earning pennies in interest....He's also very against the idea of being landlords because his parents made a bad investment on a condo and lost some money (I'm hesitant too but at least willing to explore the idea).
This is how our conversations usually goes:
me: look at this awesome MMM guy. He retired at 30 and does whatever he wants! -bring up some numbers-
him: that's nice. I don't know anything about numbers so you can take care of that
me: -bring up simple terms like difference between traditional and Roth IRA -
him: ok you take care of that and I'll just put money in the account.

Do I keep trying? Leave him alone?? I don't want to shove things down his throat but it's hard to imagine that we'll be on the same page if he doesn't have the same information as me.

Lady SA

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 01:41:27 PM »
Sounds like he's on board with personal finance 101: spending and saving. Personal finance 101 is relatively intuitive for most people. Personal finance 102: investing, is where most people drop off because the concept is overwhelming or confusing or intangible.

Sounds like your husband is overwhelmed/head in sand in the ins and outs of investing. Or simply disinterested, knowing that you've got a good handle on it and if he trusts you, why should he put in the work to learn too? Can't really tell.

I will say that between my DH and I, I'm definitely the one doing the research and figuring out finances stuff. My DH is relatively disinterested and trusts me to do the allocation and investment decisions (all the 102 level stuff), but he's involved in all the 101 level decisions. I am ok with this, and just end up telling him how much to deduct for his 401k and what funds and what allocation to do and help him set up the auto investment transfer to his IRA for the proper monthly amount and for the proper fund. He trusts me that I'm going in the general right direction and is happy to go where I point because he feels learning the ins and outs about this when I already know them is a waste of his time.

For the rental property/landlording bit, my DH might wade into the discussion a bit because that feels more tangible to him, and would be able to help do research and have a basic opinion based on logic.

Is your question based on a fear that your DH might resent you or something if you make a mistake because you "unilaterally" chose the funds/allocation/amounts? My way works because DH is pretty laid back and knows I have good intentions and am making the best decisions I can based on the information I have, and wouldn't hold it against me if our portfolio took a dip or anything. He's generally aware that the market dips every so often and instead of panicking, I get excited, so nothing to worry about.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 01:47:05 PM by Lady Smartass »

ChpBstrd

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 01:50:48 PM »
I'm with you. My DW doesn't care a bit about investments or monitoring our net worth. She also does not appreciate the lectures about how $80 restaurant bills have reduced our savings rate, or so I've learned. However, she does perk up when I talk about our 6-7 year target to be FIRE and paint a picture of that life.

Basically she's on board with the idea of not working all our lives, but not interested enough to pick her own index funds. As she's observed my interest/obsession with the subject, we've started sharing a car ride to work most days, reducing our restaurant excursions, and buying less merchandise. We've quietly reduced spending by $10k over the past year.

My role is to pay bills and manage finances. Hers is limited to earning a paycheck and holding back on at least some urges to spend. It's working. NW is up 100k since this time last year.

Lady SA

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 01:56:25 PM »
Ok I thought of one other thing. Have you talked about a "guiding principle" with your husband? As in your ultimate goal(s) as a family? Is financial independence/ability to sustain yourselves/not be a burden on your family one of them that you agree on?

In which case, you have pre-agreement from him to make those decisions to make that^^ happen. Sounds like he is happy to go along. When you make a change, sure, you can chat or bring it up even if he seems disinterested. I do this all the time as I'm changing 401k contributions month to month after raises and as we get to the end of the year to get as close to $18k as possible.

me - "hey DH, can you grab your laptop? we need to change your 401k contributions again to get as close to $18k as possible."
DH - "sure. how much do I hold back now?"
me - "put in 23% (our employer does %, not set dollar amounts, so its super frustrating). That will be about $680 per paycheck now because you paid a bit more than needed earlier this year. No changes to any funds or anything."
DH - "cool. thanks."

This works because DH understands and believes in our family "mission": become independent and not a burden to our family, and understands becoming wealthy is the best way to do this, and trusts me to make these relatively minute investment decisions to eventually make us wealthy, and doesn't much see the point in questioning my choices because it's worked out pretty well for him so far lol

spaniard999

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 02:04:41 PM »
Seems like you are in the same boat as I am trying to convince my SO to be as frugal as possible.

Lady SA

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ixtap

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2017, 02:45:32 PM »
For the first several years together, I just did kind of what DH recommended. I didn't sell off any previous investments, but I did put new money into the index funds he recommended, let him choose between traditional and ROTH, etc. I did just enough to confirm that his recommendations weren't ridiculous. Since he offered to fund my IRA the first time we ever talked about divvying up household expenses, my trust in him started pretty high.

Now, I am the one on these boards. Since he learned everything he knew from a boglehead, we haven't changed much in the way of investing. I just have a better idea of the pros and cons. That boglehead strongly disapproves of our simple lifestyle and plans for early retirement, but I like to think he would approve of our portfolio.

The point is, sure, now I know, but the results are the same as when I didn't. He let me come around to it in my own time, so it was never a point of stress for us. It would be different if he were telling you "no, let's just leave it in a savings account."

JanF

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2017, 02:56:49 PM »
Quote
Sounds like your husband is overwhelmed/head in sand in the ins and outs of investing. Or simply disinterested, knowing that you've got a good handle on it and if he trusts you, why should he put in the work to learn too?

it's probably 25% lack of knowledge (doesn't try, doesn't really want to try) and 75% trusting me. I'm pretty sure that if I don't push him to invest he would stuff his money under the mattress

Quote
Is your question based on a fear that your DH might resent you or something if you make a mistake because you "unilaterally" chose the funds/allocation/amounts?

I think I just want to be able to talk to him about it. None of our friends and family invest (I'm only 25).

Quote
As in your ultimate goal(s) as a family? Is financial independence/ability to sustain yourselves/not be a burden on your family one of them that you agree on?

I think we're on the same page. Gain financial independence, build a pile of F you money, throw as much as we can into retirement. He understands the concepts and that I want him to be able to spend time with our future kids and that I want him to work because he wants to not because he has to put food on the table.

I think he's one of those people that wants their finances as simple as possible which means 1 bank account, 1 credit card, 1 savings account, 1 mortgage that he never has to refinance. I can already picture him cussing at the bank because the loan applications are too complicated.....

Case

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 03:03:25 PM »
Ok I thought of one other thing. Have you talked about a "guiding principle" with your husband? As in your ultimate goal(s) as a family? Is financial independence/ability to sustain yourselves/not be a burden on your family one of them that you agree on?

In which case, you have pre-agreement from him to make those decisions to make that^^ happen. Sounds like he is happy to go along. When you make a change, sure, you can chat or bring it up even if he seems disinterested. I do this all the time as I'm changing 401k contributions month to month after raises and as we get to the end of the year to get as close to $18k as possible.

me - "hey DH, can you grab your laptop? we need to change your 401k contributions again to get as close to $18k as possible."
DH - "sure. how much do I hold back now?"
me - "put in 23% (our employer does %, not set dollar amounts, so its super frustrating). That will be about $680 per paycheck now because you paid a bit more than needed earlier this year. No changes to any funds or anything."
DH - "cool. thanks."

This works because DH understands and believes in our family "mission": become independent and not a burden to our family, and understands becoming wealthy is the best way to do this, and trusts me to make these relatively minute investment decisions to eventually make us wealthy, and doesn't much see the point in questioning my choices because it's worked out pretty well for him so far lol

I think your simple and succinct concept is pretty cool.  I bet many a Mustachian have gotten frustrated with their spouses who didn't disagree but didn't want to get deep into the details, when they could have instead fronted the work themselves and accomplished the mission.

Lady SA

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2017, 03:15:19 PM »
Quote
Sounds like your husband is overwhelmed/head in sand in the ins and outs of investing. Or simply disinterested, knowing that you've got a good handle on it and if he trusts you, why should he put in the work to learn too?

it's probably 25% lack of knowledge (doesn't try, doesn't really want to try) and 75% trusting me. I'm pretty sure that if I don't push him to invest he would stuff his money under the mattress
My DH is the same, if I weren't in charge he might have the presence of mind to put some money in a roth ira and make sure to deduct *some* for his 401k (and for both, would not know heads or tails on which funds to pick so would just pick the first ones that sounded good), but past that, he would just let the rest of his money accumulate somewhere and do nothing. *shrug* I've just come to accept that it's a damn good thing I'm around :)

Quote
Is your question based on a fear that your DH might resent you or something if you make a mistake because you "unilaterally" chose the funds/allocation/amounts?

I think I just want to be able to talk to him about it. None of our friends and family invest (I'm only 25).
Are we twins? DH and I are only 25 also and these concepts are not on the radar for many in our age group. DH and I are finally at the point where most of our investment stuff is relatively automated and just happens in the background so it's not in the forefront of our minds, so there often isn't too much to talk about investment wise once you've settled on a strategy. Then you're simply back at 101 level spending stuff in the day to day.

Quote
As in your ultimate goal(s) as a family? Is financial independence/ability to sustain yourselves/not be a burden on your family one of them that you agree on?

I think we're on the same page. Gain financial independence, build a pile of F you money, throw as much as we can into retirement. He understands the concepts and that I want him to be able to spend time with our future kids and that I want him to work because he wants to not because he has to put food on the table.

I think he's one of those people that wants their finances as simple as possible which means 1 bank account, 1 credit card, 1 savings account, 1 mortgage that he never has to refinance. I can already picture him cussing at the bank because the loan applications are too complicated.....

wenchsenior

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2017, 04:03:37 PM »
People have quite different emotional reactions when dealing with money.  DH has no trouble managing hundreds of thousands of dollars in terms of work-related budgets, but has 2 reactions about our home finances: benign indifference (if broad goals are being met); or anxiety and frustration if he is forced to think too much about small financial details. He feels that focusing on small details is not an optimal use of his time and energy (esp if I am willing to do it). Also, he grew up poor, and thinking too much about money beyond being happy the bills are paid causes him to channel early life anxiety OR to get angry that on his very good salary he still needs to sweat a purchase.

Now, if DH were not generally a frugal person, these traits could be a problem. Or if I were a similar person. Or if we didn't share long term goals. But we do share goals, and I have no problems dealing with our home finances.  So what we do is:

1. Have a monthly meeting, about 10 minutes, where I give him a spreadsheet of our accounts and progress, and we discuss any upcoming large expenses such as vacations, cars, home repairs, etc.

2.  If I want to experiment with e.g., optimizing groceries, I've accepted that I need to take that on, and not bother him with discussion of it unless he is violating my experiment with unusual and expensive food purchases.

3.  He knows that we should think about and discuss large purchases like cars, and he will put time and effort into that without complaint, as long as I don't constantly bug him about small stuff.

It works fine.  As long as one of you isn't spendy, and both of you know where the accounts are, and you both share the same goals, I wouldn't sweat the tiny details. Not everyone is wired to care about them. 

JanF

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2017, 04:17:10 PM »
People have quite different emotional reactions when dealing with money.  DH has no trouble managing hundreds of thousands of dollars in terms of work-related budgets, but has 2 reactions about our home finances: benign indifference (if broad goals are being met); or anxiety and frustration if he is forced to think too much about small financial details. He feels that focusing on small details is not an optimal use of his time and energy (esp if I am willing to do it). Also, he grew up poor, and thinking too much about money beyond being happy the bills are paid causes him to channel early life anxiety OR to get angry that on his very good salary he still needs to sweat a purchase.

Now, if DH were not generally a frugal person, these traits could be a problem. Or if I were a similar person. Or if we didn't share long term goals. But we do share goals, and I have no problems dealing with our home finances.  So what we do is:

1. Have a monthly meeting, about 10 minutes, where I give him a spreadsheet of our accounts and progress, and we discuss any upcoming large expenses such as vacations, cars, home repairs, etc.

2.  If I want to experiment with e.g., optimizing groceries, I've accepted that I need to take that on, and not bother him with discussion of it unless he is violating my experiment with unusual and expensive food purchases.

3.  He knows that we should think about and discuss large purchases like cars, and he will put time and effort into that without complaint, as long as I don't constantly bug him about small stuff.

It works fine.  As long as one of you isn't spendy, and both of you know where the accounts are, and you both share the same goals, I wouldn't sweat the tiny details. Not everyone is wired to care about them.

I like that!

Zikoris

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2017, 08:37:40 PM »
My boyfriend's like that, but I don't see it as a problem. I optimized everything a years ago, set everything on autopilot, and now we just watch our money grow. We check our net worth increase once a month. We don't make purchases beyond our ability to cashflow, so we don't need to have any sort of discussions or planning for that. I'm not sure what purpose it would serve for him to basically duplicate the math I do.

Bee21

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2017, 03:46:23 AM »
It is hard but he might improve with time. My husband bought into this early retirement thing after 5 years of gentle nudges/harping when he discovered sailing blogs. Apparently, they also promote freedom and a simple lifestyle.

You are not alone in being frustrated with the spouse, but in my experience, life is easier if you just go with the flow and stop arguing about it.

I wish my husband was at least a bit interested in investments, as he is the one with the brains for numbers, but we are not there yet. We would be so much better off and we would be able to retire 5 years earlier if he was slightly interested in researching jnvestments, it is that bad, but what can we do. I still haven't been able to persuade him to invest more agressively, he is still at the 'stick it in the bank and make 2% interest' stage, but at least he is not spending more money on shiny new vehicles. Turning a spender into a saver was my big achievment in the first 7 years together. We got to the point, when he doesn't call me delusional when doing our financial planning. Cos I was always right so far.😁

I keep track of everything and every now and then I request that he transfers x amount to y fund. The fund he chose lost 20% the first month, which put him off investments indefinitely, but he doesn't mind putting money in the funds I chose. Weird.

If he is frugal by default, you are already in a great position. Good luck.


Rural

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2017, 06:10:26 AM »
My husband is fully on board, has been frugal his entire life, and brags about my investment understanding, even, but he doesn't seem to want to duplicate that knowledge. He's also scarred by being raised by survivors of the Great Depression and I know part of this is probably a deep-seated distrust of banks and financial institutions. What he doesn't know won't give him panicky feelings.


I also know he would never blame me in a crash, so that's okay, but I do still worry about what will happen to him if something happens to me. I keep everything written down for him, accounts and access and etc, and I have him as beneficiary on all of my individual retirement accounts, but he would really be lost, and that's a worry I haven't found a good solution to yet. It may be worth finding a financial advisor we don't really need, in fact, so that he already knows someone to turn to if the worst were to happen.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2017, 07:04:16 AM »
Quote
Is your question based on a fear that your DH might resent you or something if you make a mistake because you "unilaterally" chose the funds/allocation/amounts?

I think I just want to be able to talk to him about it. None of our friends and family invest (I'm only 25).

If this is your major driver; I'd look to meet the need through someone else. Maybe an investment focused forum or a local meet-up?

For people that are worried about their estates, have you seen Warren Buffett's letter to his wife in the event of his death? It is really good and easy to follow.

Linea_Norway

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2017, 07:35:29 AM »
I would make an agreement with your SO that you manage all your stash and that you agree on some risk profile. Just don't mention what you are going to invest in. But when it comes to housing and landlording, he needs to be on board, as it probably requires an effort from him. So if he doesn't want to do that, you should refrain from it. But maybe you can spread investments based on your risk profile (so many percent index funds, so many percent bonds) and show your SO once a year who much the money has grown.
Just make sure you let your husband sign up for 401-or-whatever pensions at his work.

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2017, 07:53:25 AM »
It's a somewhat similar situation for me. But I really don't think it's a big deal at all. My spouse trusts me completely to make the decisions and call the shots. She's 100% on board, but doesn't really want to "nerd-out" with me.

I think there's two separate issues. First, it's also my wife's money so I want to respect her by providing information and transparency about our finances and give her an equal voice on the decision-making process. I offer very quick "this is what we're doing, how we're doing and why" with our investments about every 3 months. But I have to remember that she's not obligated to get as involved as me - if she wants to opt out in that moment, it's okay. It would be tempting to think she was being irresponsible, but what she's really saying is "I have full faith in you - I know you've got this and I'm not worried."

Second, I personally like the spreadsheets and calculations - and since finances are a  private topic, she's the only person with which I discuss this. So naturally I want to talk about it as a "fun conversation." This really isn't her personality though. For all of us who are a really interested in the money, numbers, and investments it's helpful to remember the reason we do this is so that in the future we don't have to worry about money, talk about money, or make decisions based on money.

We would never be headed to FI without my love of finances, but we also wouldn't be going there if my wife wasn't a totally awesome partner and completely on board. Just be grateful that you're headed there together and enjoy life :)

JanF

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2017, 09:40:53 AM »
Quote
First, it's also my wife's money so I want to respect her by providing information and transparency about our finances and give her an equal voice on the decision-making process.

That's definitely one of the things I have in mind, especially when I'm probably going to stop working for a while to take care of any kids.


Quote
I do still worry about what will happen to him if something happens to me.

Also a concern for the distant future. When his grandma died, his parents had a hell of a time going through all of her assets and finding money stuffed in random drawers and files that they almost threw out.


I'm probably just worrying too much....this whole adulting concept thinking about the future is pretty new to me but it seems like my situation is pretty common among the financially savvy.

On an off-topic note....what is DH? I figured it refers to husband or SO but what does it stand for? Da Husband? loll

Lady SA

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2017, 11:04:01 AM »
DH = dear husband, its a common shortening on the interwebz :)

Bicycle_B

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2017, 11:11:54 AM »
DH = Dear Husband
DW = Dear Wife
DS = Dear Spouse or Dear Son
DD = Dear Daughter

It sounds like you are doing great!  Personally, I'd suggest accepting the good behavior as it is.  Be ready for opportunities to add more info to his brain, but don't push for them.  Praise what you have, make it clear that you value the 90% that you have, the rest will come in time.  You have time on your side.

Since he rejects financial details, I'd consider finding a trustworthy fee-only financial planner and putting their name/contact info on the fridge.  Consult them once so they know your case.  If you get hit by a truck, Hubs can call them.  Imperfect but lets you know he won't collapse completely, leave it at that.

You should consider each setting up financial power of attorney paperwork, though.  If you are incapacitated, this puts him (or whoever you designate) in charge of your financial affairs; if he is incapacitated, puts you in charge. 

According to the internet, being married gives you such power in some situations but not others, such as selling a house.  I read online that a properly written POA covers the others.

https://www.legalzoom.com/knowledge/power-of-attorney/topic/spousal-power-of-attorney


WildJager

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Re: SO is frugal but uninterested
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2017, 12:48:55 PM »
I don't really see this as a problem.  People have a tendency to come around once it becomes interesting.

What I mean by that is, for years my wife didn't really have much understanding about investing.  She just trusted me to make the decisions and press forward.  I made mistakes over the years until I learned enough, but they weren't even registered on her radar.  Eventually I made a spreadsheet to track our income/saving/WR/networth.  There is a graph on it that shows our monthly spending on one line, and a monthly 4% and 3% SWR on two other lines.  She saw every month the direct impact of our spending and overall stash as those lines converged, and then eventually the amount we could withdraw went above our spending.  First we hit the 4% line, then the 3%, and now our withdraw potential is diverging rapidly from our spending.

Seeing the numbers in graphical form made our efforts more tangible and interesting to her, so the floodgates opened up.  Lots of questions and reading on her own part to understand why this was working and what more we could do to facilitate the goal.  The networth graph isn't even interesting to her (probably because it doesn't really mean anything unless you know the math behind the potential), it was the spending to WR graph that piqued her interest.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!