Author Topic: COVID Questions (Read 2679 times)

Turkey Leg · « **on:** January 04, 2021, 01:10:41 PM »

The CDC guidelines on COVID are clear, until they're not.

My father, a staunch COVID-denier, was hospitalized with COVID on Christmas Eve. They thought he would die, but he seems to be doing a bit better.

My mother, who had COVID (she was a super spreader for her small town, I'm guessing), has been allowed to spend days and nights at the hospital to convince him to cooperate. I assume this is against hospital policy.

They have three adult children, of which I'm one. One of the children has had COVID recently, and will spent a night every two nights with our father at the hospital.

I have not had COVID, and this sibling is pressuring me to spend some afternoons at the hospital to relieve our mother.

This sibling says:

PPE will protect me.
Our father is no longer contagious, so CDC guidelines on quarantining don't apply. (He tested positive on Dec 20 after about 10 days of symptoms.)

CDC guidelines say if you come into contact with someone with COVID, you quarantine for 14 days.

The official hospital policy says patients can't have visitors. (They are obviously bending the rules by allowing my mother and my one sibling to visit and spend the night.)

Is my father contagious? Will PPE protect me? Healthcare workers (masked and with PPE) have died from COVID.

What would you do?

PS: Out of all my family, my immediate family (my spouse, our child) are the only ones who followed guidelines for staying safe. The other members of my family are 100% COVIDIOTS..."It's just the flu." "I'm not going to live in fear." Worst offenders are my father and my sibling. Those are direct quotes from them both.

GuitarStv · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2021, 01:26:50 PM »

PPE will reduce your risk, but is no guarantee of protection.

The CDC says you shouldn't be contagious 10 days after showing no symptoms but having a positive test. Severe symptoms may require 20 days before it's safe - https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/end-home-isolation.html

cool7hand · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2021, 01:31:14 PM »

I'm very sorry that you're experiencing this. Unkindness from family is so very painful.

Perhaps the CDC guidelines aren't the right standard? They are only guidelines. Each of us must decide what's right for our own level of risk tolerance.

Maybe you're really asking us for permission to assert boundaries that fit your risk tolerance, even if your family does not understand? Even if they're unkind as a result? Even if others might judge you as a bad son for not visiting your father?

If so, the only person who can provide that permission is you. You bear responsibility for deciding what's right for you and for how you process and possibly respond to any resulting unkindness. Do what's right for you. Whatever that is. You can't love others without loving yourself first.

I hope that you find peace in this very challenging situation.

jrhampt · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2021, 02:04:04 PM »

I probably wouldn't go, and you might choose to "blame" it on your spouse (with permission from spouse). Any exposure you get will also expose your immediate family. Also, you don't say whether you have to go into an office or not, but it would also put your co-workers at risk and/or work might require you to quarantine afterwards.

Turkey Leg · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2021, 02:11:54 PM »

Quote from: GuitarStv on January 04, 2021, 01:26:50 PM

PPE will reduce your risk, but is no guarantee of protection.

The CDC says you shouldn't be contagious 10 days after showing no symptoms but having a positive test. Severe symptoms may require 20 days before it's safe - https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/end-home-isolation.html

My father is currently hospitalized with COVID, and it's a very, very bad case. He may not survive, although he's doing a tad bit better as of this weekend. I would assume if he's in the hospital with COVID, that means he's showing LOTS of symptoms. That's what I don't get. Is he contagious or not? I'm assuming he is, and that's why everyone entering the room has all that PPE on.

Turkey Leg · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2021, 02:13:07 PM »

Quote from: jrhampt on January 04, 2021, 02:04:04 PM

I probably wouldn't go, and you might choose to "blame" it on your spouse (with permission from spouse). Any exposure you get will also expose your immediate family. Also, you don't say whether you have to go into an office or not, but it would also put your co-workers at risk and/or work might require you to quarantine afterwards.

I told the sibling already I wasn't going, and I took the blame. I texted our mother and said I wasn't coming because I had no COVID antibodies.

habanero · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2021, 02:19:12 PM »

I read in the newspaper the other day that there is apparently not a single known case of someone still having "live" virus (and thus able to infect others) 9 days after onset of symptoms.

The relevant meta-study is this one (I haven't read it myself)
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2666-5247%2820%2930172-5

No study detected live virus beyond day 9 of illness, despite persistently high viral loads

Then again, that's not the same as it doesn't exist or can't happen. Just that is probably pretty unlikely to get it from someone who got sick 10 or more days ago.

Omy · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2021, 02:41:34 PM »

It sounds like you've been doing everything you can to reduce your risk...while your parents and siblings have thrown caution to the wind. I find it shocking that they are attempting to guilt you into risking your life and the lives of your wife and child to sit in a hospital covid unit. You have my permission to tell them to buzz off. Have them set up a Facetime call so you can check in and monitor him when your other family members need a break.

trollwithamustache · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2021, 03:25:08 PM »

Visits are probably safe, and I'd do it.

Proper PPE greatly reduces your risk of contracting it. Seriously, use the PPE, wash your hands, and you will very likely be fine. FWIW, I've been (unintentionally!) in close contact with someone with COVID and no symptoms. Fortunately, his employer was doing surivelence testing and caught it. We were both wearing masks and the room had an air filter blasting. If you start asking around, you might be surprised the number of people you know who have been tested because of contact, but it came back negative.

Spending the night is pretty bold, I doubt a mask was used and if you are asleep you will never actually know if you touched your mouth etc or not.

SwordGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2021, 04:39:51 PM »

A brief visit "Hi, Dad. Love you. Get better soon." is probably safe if you're really careful while you're there. That includes the elevators, stairs, anything you touch in the hospital, etc.

Then again, they're already proven covidiots so you can't expect them to do a damn thing to protect your safety -- or anyone else's.

Honestly, job #1 for you is protecting you and your immediate family. Visiting a covid-infested facility is not consistent with that duty. I would stay home.

Your dad made his bed and he can lie in it. If he's still denying covid is a real problem, he can lie in it while he lies in it.

OtherJen · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2021, 05:19:46 PM »

Quote from: habanero on January 04, 2021, 02:19:12 PM

I read in the newspaper the other day that there is apparently not a single known case of someone still having "live" virus (and thus able to infect others) 9 days after onset of symptoms.

The relevant meta-study is this one (I haven't read it myself)
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2666-5247%2820%2930172-5

No study detected live virus beyond day 9 of illness, despite persistently high viral loads

Then again, that's not the same as it doesn't exist or can't happen. Just that is probably pretty unlikely to get it from someone who got sick 10 or more days ago.

An adaptive immune response would kick in by the second week of infection and clear it out. After that, symptoms are due to a positive feedback loop of inflammation and the related damage (which can be truly awful).

OP: I’m so sorry about your dad. A short visit in full PPE is probably okay but I don’t think I’d want to be in a medical facility for longer. Double-mask and wear goggles. That’s what my mom does to go to work, and she’s the only employee in her division who hasn’t gotten it yet.

SunnyDays · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2021, 05:49:32 PM »

Personally, I wouldn't go. What are your siblings expecting you to do, that your mom needs "relieving?" She's just visiting, right? Against hospital policy, right? They probably allow it because your dad might not make it (I'm sorry for that) and they have better things to do with their time than try to convince her to leave. And if your father needs constant convincing to "cooperate" even at this point, it's clearly futile. Whether he ended up in hospital because of his own negligent actions or not, there's nothing you can say in person that can't be said through technology. The only different thing you could offer is a hand squeeze or shoulder pat. Is that worth the risk? You have a wife and child, and they are your first priority.

Paper Chaser · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2021, 04:17:39 AM »

If your dad doesn't make it, will you look back in 5 years and think that you should've taken the chance to see him in person one last time, or will you be comfortable staying away and keeping the risk to yourself as low as possible? There's no guarantee that you'd contract COVID in the first place, and the vast majority of COVID infections result in minor illness in every age demographic.

Like any other risk/reward decision you need to understand the risks. Do your best to fully understand the potential downsides and the odds of those downsides occuring. What are the odds that you contract COVID during this interaction? What are the odds that if you do contract COVID that it's bad? Is anybody in your house at higher risk if you do bring it home? We have enough data now that his is pretty cut and dry stuff that should be relatively easy to determine.

Once you know and understand the specific risks involved, you can determine if the benefit of seeing your dad or helping your mom or preserving the relationship with your siblings is worth the risk. These are very personal choices that are much less cut/dry than the risk part of the equation and we really can't help you determine the "reward" of seeing your father or avoiding a relationship issue with your mom or siblings.

Rosy · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2021, 07:35:50 AM »

I can't even begin to believe/understand that there is a hospital in the entire US that allows visitors - much less overnight stays of the family in a covid unit.

I think SwordGuy said it best:

Quote from: SwordGuy on January 04, 2021, 04:39:51 PM

A brief visit "Hi, Dad. Love you. Get better soon." is probably safe if you're really careful while you're there. That includes the elevators, stairs, anything you touch in the hospital, etc.

Then again, they're already proven covidiots so you can't expect them to do a damn thing to protect your safety -- or anyone else's.

Honestly, job #1 for you is protecting you and your immediate family. Visiting a covid-infested facility is not consistent with that duty. I would stay home.

Your dad made his bed and he can lie in it. If he's still denying covid is a real problem, he can lie in it while he lies in it.

Why would anyone wish to expose their children or their wife to a virus that has already killed hundreds of thousands of people?
Even if it was only the flu - I wouldn't want to infect my children, no one knows if they will get a mild case or turn out to be the rare one to die.
Zoom or duo or whatever by phone - you have a child and a wife to protect and live for.

It's great your sibling can be there and that they had only a mild case but that does not mean you will contract a mild case of Covid. Not a chance I would be willing to take.
... No, I would not visit in person - they are essentially asking you to put your life on the line for a man who recklessly denied the very existence of Covid and is now willing to ask his son to do the same.
Insanity!

Risk assessment by the numbers means nothing if you end up to be the one who leaves a widow and a fatherless child behind.
From what I've read the data show us that +/- 10% get really sick, and up to 10% of those die.
This virus is like playing a deadly game of Russian Roulette.

Omy · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2021, 12:07:31 PM »

And another percentage of people have long term effects that may follow them for a lifetime. And there is nothing definitive about who may get a mild case and who might not survive it. Anecdotally, a couple I know just experienced covid. The healthy, strong husband died and the wife with heart and lung issues was completely asymptomatic. I could not live with myself if I took a risk that killed or maimed my loved ones.

Sibley · « **Reply #15 on:** January 05, 2021, 12:21:08 PM »

OP, your family is acting with unkindness in this situation. That tells me that the entire family dynamic probably has some issues. Your responsibility is to your spouse and child, and yourself. They are your immediate family. Everyone else is extended family. Anything you do must not place your immediate family at risk.

I'm sorry you have to deal with it. The book Boundaries may be of some help.

Turkey Leg · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2021, 05:05:00 PM »

OP here. I have a mind-boggling follow up. AND I NEED TO VENT!

My father passed away from complications of COVID-19. He had no pre-existing conditions.

I drove over a few days ago in the middle of the night to see him for a couple of hours. I had full PPE on as I walked past the "NO VISITORS" signs, and the sign that said "IN ROOM DWELLERS FOR 35 MINUTES OR LESS" that was in his room. He passed away a few hours after I left. (He was sitting up eating breakfast when I left, so he went downhill fast.)

"He's not contagious any longer", one sibling said to explain how safe being there in the room with him was. The sibling's adult child (let's call the child Pat) is a healthcare worker, so she added, "Pat works with COVID patients all the time, and Pat has not gotten COVID. So you should be fine visiting our father."

So far I'm okay, but it's only been a couple of days. But the siblings planning the family-only short funeral service (which will be indoors) said there would be over 10 people there AND get this!!! Pat tested positive for COVID and WILL BE AT THE FUNERAL! "But it's okay," says the sibling. "Pat will sit in the back of the room."

But wait, that's not all! They are all going back to a relative's tiny house to eat after the funeral.

I'm not sure I ever want to see any of them again. COVIDIOTS! I will not be going anywhere near the funeral service.

GuitarStv · « **Reply #17 on:** January 11, 2021, 07:17:14 AM »

Report the relative who is planning on attending the funeral after testing positive for covid and have them arrested. That's very stupid and could kill others . . . and in every jurisdiction around here at least, is very illegal.

BikeFanatic · « **Reply #18 on:** January 11, 2021, 08:36:13 AM »

Please do not listen to your siblings. "Pat works with covid patients and has not gotten Covid, it is safe" yet now Pat has Covid.

I am so sorry to hear about your Father, very sorry. Like So many older folks who get Covid he probably had years left of life that was stolen by the virus. Please stand firm and do not be a part in other relatives getting Covid and being sick or also dying. DO your part.

I now have at least 3 people I know who have worked in a Covid unit that now have Covid. Somehow they managed to protect themselves, but now it is like a mini cluster where I used to work. I am scared for them All. They are healthy individuals, except for Asthma and older (47-64 years old). They got Covid probably 2 weeks after getting dose one of Vaccine so I pray there is some protection there.

Paper Chaser · « **Reply #19 on:** January 11, 2021, 09:21:17 AM »

Sorry for your loss Turkey Leg.

wenchsenior · « **Reply #20 on:** January 11, 2021, 11:33:24 AM »

Jesus H. I'm so so sorry for your loss.

My sister is dealing with similar insanity at her job. Head veteranarian/owner believes Covid is overblown and 'masks don't work' (despite wearing them for animal surgery) and insists she would forbid them all from wearing them in the office if there wasn't a state mask mandate. Then said owner's kids were at the father's house for 2 weeks (parents are divorced). Vet was due to pick up kids, father (WHO IS AN M.D.!!!!!) called and said he had Covid with mild symptoms, confirmed by test, but that it should be fine to take the kids. He insisted they didn't need to test the kids for covid b/c 'they'll be fine even if they get it'. Vet agreed that it should be fine, and went to get the kids, thus potentially exposing herself, and has every intention of 1) not testing the kids; 2) not quarantining herself and coming to work; and 3) getting on a plane for a vacation in Vegas next week. My sister, who wears N95s consistently at work, notes that there's only so long you can work with your faces inches apart for extended periods of time during vet procedures and not be exposed.

As she notes, if she catches covid from her boss and passes it to someone she loves who dies, she'll end up in jail for retributatory violence.

I've had very little faith in humanity for most of my life, but this pandemic is absolutely taking it to new lows. And I'm constantly scared for her and those around her.

Again, OP, I am really really sorry.

dougules · « **Reply #21 on:** January 11, 2021, 12:22:09 PM »

This is a terrible situation. I'm so sorry.

The only thing I have to add is to thank you for taking it seriously. You may be saving another family from going through the same pain.

Turkey Leg · « **Reply #22 on:** January 11, 2021, 04:38:05 PM »

At least I’m not alone in the craziness of this. I have several friends (whom I haven’t seen in ages BECAUSE THERE’S A FREAKING PANDEMIC GOING ON) that I’ve been venting to.

Your horrible stories help, too. :)

People can be so stupid.

Turkey Leg · « **Reply #23 on:** January 11, 2021, 04:39:35 PM »

Quote from: GuitarStv on January 11, 2021, 07:17:14 AM

Report the relative who is planning on attending the funeral after testing positive for covid and have them arrested. That's very stupid and could kill others . . . and in every jurisdiction around here at least, is very illegal.

Very tempted to do this but I didn’t.

News:

Author Topic: COVID Questions (Read 2679 times)