Need a budget critique

[davef]

So,
I need a budget Critique. We are not very mustachian so I am sure to get a lot of crap on here. Long term we are good, as we invested a lot 10 years ago, but the past 3 years I have had very little leftover funds to invest, or even take a vacation. I am looking to trim 500-1000 from our monthly budget without sacrificing quality of life. We are a family of 5 with 3 boys 3,6,9.

Net income = 9600/Month after taxes 401k Insurance
Mortgage 3410 (Includes taxes and insurance)
HOA (220)
Electric 380 (Average)
Water & Waste 190 (Average)
Pest control (33)
TV & Internet (290) I know its crazy, this is one of the place I plan to cut
Yard Maint (205)
Insurance (371) (Auto and Life)
Phones (202) (For me and my wife) I think it will drop to 140 soon as our Iphones will be paid off.
Put of pocket Medical (650) Average over the past 2 years. I hope this drops off soon.
Restaurants (1200) Average
Groceries (1800) Average Includes all basic living expenses, cleaning supplies etc.
Auto repair and Gas (995) Both cars are paid off. Its about 400 on a typical month for gas and tolls but had lots of maint last year that raised the average,
Entertainment (395) (including dates, babysitters... we have no family) So that's like 1-2 date 1 museum or something similar each month.
Church and charities (200)
Pet (100) we have a 15 year old dog dying of cancer, spent 4k on that over the past 2 years.
Clothes (200)
Misc (200)

Between the medical expenses for the kids, the dog and the unscheduled car maintenance ive basically been break even over the past 2 years with nothing leftover to invest. I know the food seems crazy. I have tried not eating out, but the groceries seem to go up proportionately. we average 3000 a month between the 2. If I cut restaurants down to 400 groceries rises up to 2400. I focused on this for 2 months and saved a few hundred dollars, but hardly noticeable. The kids are allergic to dairy, and we try to eat healthy. I guess we have expensive tastes.... A lot of this is cleaning supplies too & chlorine for the pool.

[secondcor521]

These kinds of threads go poorly about 99% of the time.  Generally people give all sorts of reasonable and good suggestions, and the OP will explain why they can't/won't make those cuts.

OP, I think you need two things:  (1) Get in sync with your wife so that it's both of you against the budget, not you against her, and (2) you both need to have a goal or vision that is more important than your current spending and therefore worth making the cuts.

If it's just you wanting to make the cuts, or if you're doing them for vague reasons, it won't work.

[Kwill]

I'm not great at maths, but it looks like you are spending more than you earn every month, right? So this isn't about just going on vacation or saving but about not going into debt after such a promising start and such a high salary. You can do better.

secondcor521 is probably right that this will go better if you and your wife are on the same page. Have you tried showing her these numbers?

If you want to talk about strategies for cooking cheaper food that is still healthy and tasty, the Mustachians tend to be really good at coming up with ideas. I make this dairy-free cake sometimes, not because I'm allergic but because it's easy and quick. $600 per person per month on food seems like an awful lot considering that one of the people is a three-year-old who probably doesn't eat that much. The kids might eat more when they are bigger.

Can you switch phone companies once your phones are paid off? How much more of a contract do you have?

Can you or your wife do any more of the yard maintenance?

If you close to any of the people at church, could you trade babysitting nights? Like one couple hosts a play date for all the kids while the other couple has a night out?

[Cassie]

The phones and groceries are the ones that stand out to me. T-Mobile has prepaid plans that are $25 per month per line with unlimited text and talk and I think 2 GB of data. If you’re mostly where there’s Wi-Fi you’ll never use all that data.

Between groceries and eating out that’s a ton of money for a family of five even in a higher cost of living especially considering that all three of those kids aren’t very old. It’s surprising what you can find when you really examine your grocery bill. I’m a senior and don’t eat that much and when my bill went from 300 to 400 per month for me and occasional guests I took a really close look at it. It turns out that I had some expensive habits. For instance, I eat yogurt in those little individual containers. I switched to big containers and measuring it out into a cup to eat it and saved $38 per month and just that one little change. I was able to cut $100 a month off my grocery bill and sometimes even more than that.

[davef]

These kinds of threads go poorly about 99% of the time.  Generally people give all sorts of reasonable and good suggestions, and the OP will explain why they can't/won't make those cuts.

OP, I think you need two things:  (1) Get in sync with your wife so that it's both of you against the budget, not you against her, and (2) you both need to have a goal or vision that is more important than your current spending and therefore worth making the cuts.

If it's just you wanting to make the cuts, or if you're doing them for vague reasons, it won't work.

Thats exactly why have been spinning my wheels for the past 2 years.

Swapping nights with babysitting is a good idea. I have proposed that with my wife but she has yet to make it happen. The wife and I are going through troubles. She wants a date every week. She also wants to see a marriage counselor. I am not seeing how to make it work. Anyhow, Yes, I've tried and she throws a fit every time I try to talk money with her. She doesn't spend a lot, that said I buy everything we need so I'm not sure what she buys. Clothes for her and the kids and food when I am out of town. Anyhow, I won't get much cooperation from her.

I dont think we have a contract on the phones. Its ATT.

On the yard maintenance no... Thats just for mowing and the hedges. I am on the road 100 days a year so I dont want to put that on my wife to do while I'm gone... she wouldn't do it anyway if I did.  As it is I am still doing an 5-10 hours a month on yard work. Weeding, hand pruning, fixing spriklers. I also do a lot of house work, Seems every weekend I am fixing an appliance or cabinet drawer or something.

On the food, we are still spending about ~300 a month on formula alone, its time to ween him off, but hes in no hurry.

I'm not great at maths, but it looks like you are spending more than you earn every month, right? So this isn't about just going on vacation or saving but about not going into debt after such a promising start and such a high salary. You can do better.

There is a little more income, about 10-15k from bonuses and my side hustle but its inconsistent so I try not to rely on it. We have been break even. I had to pull out about 5k last year from the investment account but was able to put it back toward the end of the year.

No debt other than the mortgage, which is at 2.75%

Yes, the kids a have lots of individually packages stuff for their lunches. Oreos, small bags of snacks, juice boxes, I know that adds up. We switched from bags to tupperwares mostly and are buying mostly costco packages.

On data. I used 1.44 TB of data in the past 3 years. I listen to 2-3 hours of podcasts a day and work from my phone. So I think I need unlimited Data. And I am often in remote locations. I need to talk to my employer about reimbursing me for my phone. That would be ideal.

[Kwill]

If you're breaking even, then maybe prioritise the marriage counselling your wife wants. Saving your marriage will probably be better for your life and your finances than anything else. You can bring up the budget concerns in the context of the counselling. Others will have more wisdom on this, but it just seems like counselling now would be better than letting problems get worse.

Edit to add: Consumer Cellular uses the ATT network. It wouldn't make a huge difference, but if you're not locked into a contract, then switching could be an easy win.

[davef]

Consumers Cellular,
I dont know anyone who has it, is it a good product? Would I notice a difference?

[Green_Tea]

"Yes, the kids a have lots of individually packages stuff for their lunches. Oreos, small bags of snacks, juice boxes"

- Note that this and restaurant food are not in line with your stated goal of eating healthy.

Generally the healthy food is pretty okay price wise: fruit and veggies, pulses, oats, healthy oils, low or no meat etc, basic stuff you prepare yourself.

[charis]

If I cut restaurants down to 400 groceries rises up to 2400.

Is this you trying to make an excuse for spending 1200/month on restaurants?  First, the math doesn't make sense (if you cut 800 but only save 200, that's a choice).  Second, you are spending 1.2k/month on restaurants but you can't save anything?? That's mindboggling.

[Dicey]

If you're breaking even, then maybe prioritise the marriage counselling your wife wants. Saving your marriage will probably be better for your life and your finances than anything else. You can bring up the budget concerns in the context of the counselling. Others will have more wisdom on this, but it just seems like counselling now would be better than letting problems get worse.

Edit to add: Consumer Cellular uses the ATT network. It wouldn't make a huge difference, but if you're not locked into a contract, then switching could be an easy win.

Your communication problem with your wife far exceeds your budget problem. Fix that first or your budget will be the least of your worries.

[secondcor521]

These kinds of threads go poorly about 99% of the time.  Generally people give all sorts of reasonable and good suggestions, and the OP will explain why they can't/won't make those cuts.

OP, I think you need two things:  (1) Get in sync with your wife so that it's both of you against the budget, not you against her, and (2) you both need to have a goal or vision that is more important than your current spending and therefore worth making the cuts.

If it's just you wanting to make the cuts, or if you're doing them for vague reasons, it won't work.

Thats exactly why have been spinning my wheels for the past 2 years.

Swapping nights with babysitting is a good idea. I have proposed that with my wife but she has yet to make it happen. The wife and I are going through troubles. She wants a date every week. She also wants to see a marriage counselor. I am not seeing how to make it work. Anyhow, Yes, I've tried and she throws a fit every time I try to talk money with her. She doesn't spend a lot, that said I buy everything we need so I'm not sure what she buys. Clothes for her and the kids and food when I am out of town. Anyhow, I won't get much cooperation from her.

Make sure you understand the arrow of causation:  your money issues are a consequence of your relationship issues.  Were I in your shoes, I would give the marriage counseling a chance.

If you want to see how expensive divorce can get, add up your net worth, and imagine being left with about 45% of that amount (a 50/50 split plus attorney fees plus possibly alimony).  Oh, and you will probably get to see those kids less than half the time given you're on the road and it sounds like she's a SAHM.

One divorce will outweigh your monthly budget woes by probably 100x to 1000x or more.

[davef]

[/quote]

Make sure you understand the arrow of causation:  your money issues are a consequence of your relationship issues.  Were I in your shoes, I would give the marriage counseling a chance.


One divorce will outweigh your monthly budget woes by probably 100x to 1000x or more.
[/quote]

I'm not sure about that. We did the counseling last year for 4 months. I quit when she accused me of sleeping with the counselor... Obviously the two are related but the causation isn't clear. see my other thread...

On the food I meant when we cut out 800 on dinning out it adds at least 600 to groceries, so the savings isn't great.
We did that Feb and March of this year. The lowest month was 2440. If you subtract diapers, cleaning supplies, batteries, etc we will say about 2000 is food. Thats $13 per person per day. Is that really bad? what are you all at?

[davef]

"Yes, the kids a have lots of individually packages stuff for their lunches. Oreos, small bags of snacks, juice boxes"

- Note that this and restaurant food are not in line with your stated goal of eating healthy.

Generally the healthy food is pretty okay price wise: fruit and veggies, pulses, oats, healthy oils, low or no meat etc, basic stuff you prepare yourself.

Well, we like meat....
On weekdays I am home (Remember I travel 100 days a year)  I make breakfast at 6am while my kids make their own lunch.

Usually I usually make 1 meat, we rotate bacon, sausage, or corned beef. Eggs made to order. There is always strawberries or blackberries but the kids dont usually eat them.  They will eat apples bananas and watermelon as a snack. I do an omelets ever few days to use up lefotver meats and veggies.  Occasionally biscuits form a can when we run out of toast. On weekends my wife does pancakes or waffles or we eat cereal.

The kids normally do a ham or Chicken sandwich with Diya Cheese (We are all allergic to dairy) and mayo, A Juicebox, 2 oreos and a small bag of pretzels or chips.

I normally cook salads or occasionally poke bowls, or Chilli for my wife and I for lunch.

I cook Dinner too. Mondays is Salmon and rice, Tuesday tacos, Wednesday we order Pizza (or occasionally bbq ribs), Thursday or Gyros greek salads, or shrimp salads, or Brats on the grill, Friday hamburgers on the grill, We normally have at least one meal out each weekend, and leftovers.

So that 1200 dollars for restaurants is typically Wednesday and Saturday dinner, and a few lunches a month when I am out of town. 

[MaybeBabyMustache]

I guess I'm left asking whether you want to stay married to your wife. If I read correctly, the last time you attempted counseling, she accused you of sleeping (assuming unfounded) with the counselor. And, you went for four months. Do you have a good sense of what's working and not working in your marriage? Were I in your shoes, the budget would be the least of my concerns. I'd start looking for a job that doesn't require 100 days of travel/year, and understanding how we could navigate a separation*, unless you think another counselor might work miracles.

*I don't suggest this lightly, but things seem incredibly challenging if a four month investment in marital counseling led to accusations of cheating with the counselor vs progress on improving your marriage.

[davef]

Trust me, I'm pretty close to pulling the plug.... Unfortunately, If I do, I am left with the same expenses, and trying to find another 2,000 a month for an apartment...See my other thread for considering divorce.....I love my job, and I have a pretty good pay for someone without a degree (155k). I dont think I could make more than half that in a job without travel.

[Tasse]

The wife and I are going through troubles. She wants a date every week. She also wants to see a marriage counselor. I am not seeing how to make it work. Anyhow, Yes, I've tried and she throws a fit every time I try to talk money with her.

Buddy, you are missing the forest for the trees. Set the budget aside for now and get to a marriage counselor yesterday.

[charis]

The wife and I are going through troubles. She wants a date every week. She also wants to see a marriage counselor. I am not seeing how to make it work. Anyhow, Yes, I've tried and she throws a fit every time I try to talk money with her.

Buddy, you are missing the forest for the trees. Set the budget aside for now and get to a marriage counselor yesterday.

Having just read through the OP's other thread, it sounds like marriage counseling is not going to save this situation.  Maybe a male counselor, but even that would likely be a band aid.  It is an unfortunate situation, but I agree that the focus on budgeting is very misplaced.

[Omy]

The wife and I are going through troubles. She wants a date every week. She also wants to see a marriage counselor. I am not seeing how to make it work. Anyhow, Yes, I've tried and she throws a fit every time I try to talk money with her.

Buddy, you are missing the forest for the trees. Set the budget aside for now and get to a marriage counselor yesterday.

+1

I would find it pretty aggravating if my husband loved his job that kept him away from our family so much of the time. It sounds like you are no longer working as a team. If you don't resolve that, you will hemorrhage money if you stay married or if you divorce. But money is the least of your worries at this point.

[LD_TAndK]

Focusing on the budget question, it looks like there are some relatively painless savings you could go after:

 - Also check our USMobile for cell phone, you can get an unlimited plan that uses the ATT network
 - As you noted there's probably a lot to be saved in your TV / Internet category, just by calling in to a customer service representative. There might be subscription services your family doesn't actually use too?
 - You cook with a lot of expensive meats, maybe you could substitute chicken breast for salmon, use pork tenderloin in your tacos or as chops, grill some chicken thighs rather than burgers. Halve the meat in your chili and double the beans? A bagel, egg, and Daiya cheese sandwich might be "meaty" enough you can skip bacon / sausage some mornings. Buy Grapes rather than blackberries and strawberries that people aren't eating anyways

Good luck and I hope you all get through this okay

[Tasse]

The wife and I are going through troubles. She wants a date every week. She also wants to see a marriage counselor. I am not seeing how to make it work. Anyhow, Yes, I've tried and she throws a fit every time I try to talk money with her.

Buddy, you are missing the forest for the trees. Set the budget aside for now and get to a marriage counselor yesterday.

Having just read through the OP's other thread, it sounds like marriage counseling is not going to save this situation.

If it's not salvageable, then a good counselor will help them acknowledge that and begin dissolving things.

I didn't realize there was another thread of marriage context. I was just kind of astonished at OP complaining he "won't get much cooperation" on his priorities in the same breath that he dismisses her priorities (marriage counseling) as pointless.

ETA: I am also seeing a lot more context from OP in the thread now than I did yesterday. I think maybe I didn't refresh before posting. Sorry if my comments were misplaced as a result.

[maisymouser]

These kinds of threads go poorly about 99% of the time.  Generally people give all sorts of reasonable and good suggestions, and the OP will explain why they can't/won't make those cuts.

Well, if OP is willing to hear me out, I'm happy to dissect this budget but it may be perceived as a smack-down. I will refrain from commenting on the marriage situation because A) that's nowhere near my area of expertise, and B) OP states that "Unfortunately, If I do [separate], I am left with the same expenses, and trying to find another 2,000 a month for an apartment..."

Here's where I see fat to trim:

Net income = 9600/Month after taxes 401k Insurance - well that's great! certainly more than a lot of us earn.
Mortgage 3410 (Includes taxes and insurance) - No indication of how long this will be an expense. OP indicates 2.75% which is a great rate. Let's assume this is fixed.
HOA (220) - This is unfortunate but not much OP can do. I generally do not recommend buying in an HOA since there is risk of due hikes.
Electric 380 (Average) - High. Look into what is burning up so much energy. There are a multitude of threads/websites/ideas for this. Compare with others in your county/neighborhood; if your bill is higher than average there is definitely fat to trim.
Water & Waste 190 (Average) - Is there a way to reduce this? We forfeit trash pickup and instead haul to our county waste collection site up the road. Have you compared water bills with others in your neighborhood and are they higher/lower than your reported average? If lower, there has got to be a way to cut.
Pest control (33) - What is this? For bugs? Buy yourself a gallon or two of $10 Ortho Home Defense and apply 2x annually. Sprinkle borax around perimeter of house interior. Grab some roach bait/poison stations for $20 each year.
TV & Internet (290) I know its crazy, this is one of the place I plan to cut - No kidding, buddy. Spectrum is in your area for $30/month. That's all you need. Cut the cable and TV services. Go to your library for media and other entertainment.
Yard Maint (205) - Makes no sense. Hire a local high schooler to mow your lawn 2x/month and trim your hedges yourself.
Insurance (371) (Auto and Life) - Life insurance for Mustachians is probably a waste of money. Florida auto insurance is very expensive- have you considered self-insuring? If not, do you shop around for auto insurance every policy renewal and do you absolutely need the coverages you have? Consider getting a cheaper vehicle when the time arises.
Phones (202) (For me and my wife) I think it will drop to 140 soon as our Iphones will be paid off.  This should be more like $100/month for two people, max. Shop around with unlocked phones in the future.
Put of pocket Medical (650) Average over the past 2 years. I hope this drops off soon. When will it drop off?
Restaurants (1200) Average - Wow. Just... wow. This is more than 2x our annual budget for restaurants. If this is because of your work travel, does work not reimburse you for meals? This is a hair on fire cost cutting necessity in your household.
Groceries (1800) Average Includes all basic living expenses, cleaning supplies etc. High. You are spending too much money on meat IMHO, which is a choice but is bad for the climate, your health, and your wallet. Juiceboxes are optional and bad for kids' teeth. Oreos are not a part of my 6yo's diet. Berries are expensive to waste so if the kids won't eat them, don't buy them. If you are home on weekdays there is no excuse for the restaurant costs. Consider making more cost-friendly (and healthy!) staples like popcorn, beans, rice, stir fries, whole wheat pasta, roasted veggies + sweet potatoes, smoothies for dessert, etc.
Auto repair and Gas (995) Both cars are paid off. Its about 400 on a typical month for gas and tolls but had lots of maint last year that raised the average, - So you are spending nearly $600/month on car maintenance? Or repairs? Either way that is high and should be cut. See above- does your employer pay for gas/mileage during travel? Note that the above recommended reduction in eating out would synergize with this category as you wouldn't need to go drive to eat in the future.
Entertainment (395) (including dates, babysitters... we have no family) So that's like 1-2 date 1 museum or something similar each month. Speaking as someone also in the boat of not having family nearby, "We have no family" is an excuse for throwing money at childcare if you are looking to trim the budget. I'm not saying you shouldn't have time with your wife (and DEFINITELY understand the need to have time w/o kids each month) but go find free shit to do like taking a hike or going to free events. Hell, when my DH and I were in counseling we bracketed that with ~1h of shared video watching (interesting Youtube) or cooking time, which was free and helped us connect during the more difficult times.
Church and charities (200) - Optional and a choice.
Pet (100) we have a 15 year old dog dying of cancer, spent 4k on that over the past 2 years. Optional and a choice- sounds like it may not be a line item in the near future. I don't think I would have shelled out that kind of money on a pet, but to each their own.
Clothes (200) - Thrift stores and durable items. 'Nuf said.
Misc (200) - ? This accounts for $2400/year

That's all I've got for now- it may feel like a facepunch but I'm here to give you my honest critique!

[charis]

On the food I meant when we cut out 800 on dinning out it adds at least 600 to groceries, so the savings isn't great.
We did that Feb and March of this year. The lowest month was 2440. If you subtract diapers, cleaning supplies, batteries, etc we will say about 2000 is food. Thats $13 per person per day. Is that really bad? what are you all at?

I understood what you meant, and it still doesn't make sense.  You really have to be not trying at all to get food costs that high, especially swapping restaurant meals for groceries.  We barely try and spent almost half as much in total food in the last month for a family of four with two teenagers and two FT working parents AND we eat beef, chicken, or fish at every dinner and (shhh) buy juice boxes.  We eat healthy and buy in bulk/on sale from discount grocery stores. 

No one ever needs individually wrapped cookies, etc, as long as lunch boxes and ziploc bags exist.  You couldn't pay me to take my kids to a restaurant twice a week at that age (is this fun enjoyable for you?).  Even now it's not much fun to leave the comfort of home, drive to a restaurant, maybe wait for a table, spend 4x the cost of a home cooked meal for crappy restaurant food, and drive back home.

[roomtempmayo]

Make sure you understand the arrow of causation:  your money issues are a consequence of your relationship issues.  Were I in your shoes, I would give the marriage counseling a chance.

Yes, @davef , you don't have money trouble, you have marriage trouble.  Figure out the marriage first.  The money is just a symptom.

Also, you have three young kids.  You owe it to them to patch it up with your wife.

[secondcor521]

Having just read through the OP's other thread, it sounds like marriage counseling is not going to save this situation.  Maybe a male counselor, but even that would likely be a band aid.  It is an unfortunate situation, but I agree that the focus on budgeting is very misplaced.

Piggybacking off your last sentence, I think it's possible that OP is focusing on an easier problem (the budget) rather than the harder problem (the marriage).  I could easily see myself doing the same thing...in fact, in retrospect I probably did do the same thing.

[Tasse]

Also, you have three young kids.  You owe it to them to patch it up with your wife.

Mmm, I wouldn't say that exactly. You owe it to them to find a healthy path forward, which might look like patching it up or it might look like splitting. Staying in a marriage that isn't working "for the kids" is usually pretty bad for the kids.

[SweatingInAR]

...
Mortgage 3410 (Includes taxes and insurance) - No indication of how long this will be an expense. OP indicates 2.75% which is a great rate. Let's assume this is fixed.
HOA (220) - This is unfortunate but not much OP can do. I generally do not recommend buying in an HOA since there is risk of due hikes.
Electric 380 (Average) - High. Look into what is burning up so much energy. There are a multitude of threads/websites/ideas for this. Compare with others in your county/neighborhood; if your bill is higher than average there is definitely fat to trim.
Water & Waste 190 (Average) - Is there a way to reduce this? We forfeit trash pickup and instead haul to our county waste collection site up the road. Have you compared water bills with others in your neighborhood and are they higher/lower than your reported average? If lower, there has got to be a way to cut.
...
Groceries (1800) Average Includes all basic living expenses, cleaning supplies etc. High. You are spending too much money on meat IMHO, which is a choice but is bad for the climate, your health, and your wallet. Juiceboxes are optional and bad for kids' teeth. Oreos are not a part of my 6yo's diet. Berries are expensive to waste so if the kids won't eat them, don't buy them. If you are home on weekdays there is no excuse for the restaurant costs. Consider making more cost-friendly (and healthy!) staples like popcorn, beans, rice, stir fries, whole wheat pasta, roasted veggies + sweet potatoes, smoothies for dessert, etc.
...

Figuring out the marriage is more important right now, but I can't help with that.

Instead, I'm going to piggy-back on maisymouser's excellent financial suggestions:

• Mortgage and insurance: A $3410 monthly mortgage at 2.75% hints at a huge McMansion-level purchase price if it was a 30 year mortgage. Though, FL homeowners insurance is a nightmare right now. Try shopping around for quotes, and find out if there are any good bang-for-your-buck upgrades that will bring down the insurance cost
• Electric: Your best resource here is your neighbors. Ask about their bills, and ask what they set their thermostat to and how long the pool pump runs. Try cutting back on the pool pump and chemicals, especially if it isn't being used regularly. Be sure to change the pump program seasonally. Even if you need a lot of hours in the summer, you won't in the winter.
• Water & Waste: Are you watering your lawn with city water? That seems super high. Again, check with your neighbors
• Groceries: Florida with a high grocery bill? I guess that you need to stop shopping at Publix. Instead, shop at Aldi, Trader Joe's, the local hispanic grocery, or Costco. Publix is only a decent value if you shop the sales. Going in and buying the exact same things every week is guaranteed to cost a lot. Your standard weekly menu needs to be flexible and adapt to the sales.

[maisymouser]

I also wanted to come back and say that I am sorry you are going thru so much at this point in your life. Trying to rein in a budget while having marital issues is no picnic and I commend you for wanting to improve both. Best of luck.

[chasingthegoodlife]

Lots of great suggestions already but here are a few from another 3yo parent:
- You mention still spending a lot on infant formula. Is this because your kid can’t have whole milk? If they are a good eater, they might be ready to move off this. Maybe something to discuss with your Maternal & Child Health nurse or pediatrician.
- You mention diapers - are they still a significant expense? 3 is a great age to toilet train, and you could quickly get that down to one pull-up for night only. Aldi have very good, cheap disposable diapers. Your local Buy Nothing group is a great resource for all things toilet training - potties, books, bundles of barely used undies, cloth nappies or training pants etc.
- Pizza night - I would start the gentle dining out reduction by swapping this for pita bread pizzas at home. Only extra cost to the grocery budget would be a bag of pitas and cheese, then use up bits and pieces from the fridge. Fun for the kids to design their own, minimal extra work for parents.

Without wanting to dismiss the very real challenges you are having in your marriage, I also wanted to put it out there that if I was a stay at home parent for three children and my husband was away for 100 days per year, I would most definitely be insisting on a date a week when my husband was home. Can you have more day dates when your kids are in school so you don’t need a babysitter? Does your 3 year old go to preschool?

[Cassie]

I just realized that you have a three-year-old that is still in diapers and drinking formula. If your son is lactose intolerant, you can buy a product called Lactaid and put it in milk and it solves that issue. If there’s another health issue, then I could understand it. Unless the child is developmentally delayed, there should be no reason that he is still in diapers either. Those are two big expenses that most likely could be gone.

I haven’t read your other thread, so I don’t know what your marriage is like, but I will say from my own personal experience is that if both people are committed to raising their children together and being decent to each other that you can continue the marriage until the kids are grown. I dragged my husband to marriage counseling twice and things really didn’t improve and at that point I decided I was not going to leave until all our boys were grown and launched.

There really wasn’t stress in the house and we didn’t fight because honestly, I got to the point where I didn’t care enough to fight. The kids are many others thought we were happy and were shocked when I divorced him once the youngest was 18 and graduated from high school. About 10 years later, they thanked me for sticking it out because they said their childhood would’ve been entirely different and probably not so happy if we had split. If you two are fighting all the time then obviously the kids would be better off if you weren’t married.

[Tasse]

Having skimmed the other thread, I recommend anyone with "stick it out" advice read that before sharing.

[davef]

Thank you all for the good advice... I spent the last 2 years sticking it out... Doing my best to make it work. It's not working. The therapist made things worse...I agree, if the parents are willing to stick it out for the kids, that's the best. But my wife is crazy, and acting crazy in front of the kids is not good... And she does it every day.

That said I need to trim 1-2k out of this budget. I'll likely need it for an apartment in the near future...
She wants the house, and isnt likely to make any changes so I want to get the trajectory right.

The dog being gone will save a lot. Right now, we use the pool year round. If we stop running the heater in the winter, that will save some $ as well as water and chemicals.... If I could get the kids to stop leaving the patio doors open, that would help too.

I am doing my best on food this month, we will see what I can do. My oldest eats only fish, Mostly Salmon. We by a $20 fillet at costco and it last him most of the week. The youngest drinks nutramigen (2 glasses a day) Before nap and before bed. Its 300$ for 4 cans. He used to go through a can a week, but now it more like half a can a week. He is old enough we could take him off the formula, but it is a routine that makes him nap so we have used it a crutch. Every time I try to potty train my wife stops me. I can't figure out why,

Unfortunately, we moved to FL when prices were sky high and rates were low.

Yes its a 30 year fixed with 27 years left on it.

I talked to my employer about reimbursement on the phones.

The car repairs are stupid.  We have a 2017 Nissan pathfinder with 106k on it. Last year the tailgate stopped opening. Because it was automatic they said it was going to be 2200 to fix I talked them down to 1700. Later in the year the front Collison sensor went haywaire (we weren't in a collision that I know of) but they said the bracket was bent and the until its fixed the airbags and ABS wont work. so, I spent 2000 to fix that. then at 100k I had all the fluids and the brakes changed. It should be good for another year or 2 now. Auto should be 400-500 per month for the next year.

The health expenses were 3 one time expenses that are done, (Invisilign for me, one kid broke an arm, and the other got a grill bristle brush stuck in his throat that had to be removed). but my oldest needs braces soon, so there isnt an end in sight.

The employer pays for meals when I am on trips. If I drink, I do that on my own dime. Alcohol probably represents $100 of the restaurant and $100 of the grocery budget.

Work pays for my milage if I use my car for work. But not trips to the airport. Which is about 40 trips a year, 40 mile drive with 6$ in tolls. I guess that's $1440 a year. Can I write that off?

Mow yard 2X a month? not in FL. You need mow every 4-5 days.

We can definitely save some in the Misc category by doing our own haircuts.
We get about 80% of the kids clothes second hand. Its pretty much just shoes and underwear we by new.

[Omy]

Will work pay for Uber to and from the airport?

Sounds like $3600 for formula and $$ for diapers should go away soon.

Closing the pool and/or disabling the heater will probably drop utilities/chemicals by $3000 per year.

These minor budget changes will be blown away by lawyer fees, however.
 
The house needs to go because the crazy/angry estranged spouse doesn't seem to worry about utility and food and restaurant costs - or the cost of anything really. Two smaller places is really the only viable option if you have to keep paying for everything.

[secondcor521]

Work pays for my milage if I use my car for work. But not trips to the airport. Which is about 40 trips a year, 40 mile drive with 6$ in tolls. I guess that's $1440 a year. Can I write that off?

If you're an employee, no.  If you're self employed, yes, tolls can be deducted in addition to the mileage at the standard mileage rate.

[davef]

Will work pay for Uber to and from the airport?

Sounds like $3600 for formula and $$ for diapers should go away soon.

Closing the pool and/or disabling the heater will probably drop utilities/chemicals by $3000 per year.

These minor budget changes will be blown away by lawyer fees, however.
 
The house needs to go because the crazy/angry estranged spouse doesn't seem to worry about utility and food and restaurant costs - or the cost of anything really. Two smaller places is really the only viable option if you have to keep paying for everything.

I did Uber to the airport once it was about $100 each way and they paid it. That said, they normally pay 100 for a week worth of parking. I think I am going to start doing uber more for longer trips and just drive for the 2-3 day trips.

She may not care now, but she will when she is paying it. I wouldn't close the pool. My boys use it every day. That seems extreme.... They are not really optional in Florida. We could likely save $1000 a year in electricity water and chemicals just by turning the heater off. But then you can only use the pool 7-8 months a year instead of 12.

[JupiterGreen]

I did read the other thread when you posted it. You received so much good budget advice and relationship advice. I'd like to encourage you to look at how you show up. How you interface with your life, responsibilities, parenthood, and sense of self. This is your life, stop outsourcing it.

You said this relationship has been bad for some time, and yet, you have a 3-year-old child even though you mention hints of the “narcissistic behavior” before this child. That means you chose to have (at least) one other child with your "crazy" partner. You clearly did not have a solid relationship with your partner to begin with (fundamental conversations were lacking). You took an incredibly stressful job on your spouse (since you travel). You chose to buy a place that is out of your budget (with a pool!), and away from support/family. You said your spouse is from the Philippines, but you didn’t say if she was born there. If so, what an immensely stressful situation for her to be thrown into a foreign culture.

So, you chose a partner you didn’t have a solid relationship with and didn’t seem to prioritize the communication piece so you could get on the same page, yet you did choose to spend all this money and have all these kids with her. You wanted this relationship for some reason. But you couldn’t afford her or your three children mentally, emotionally, or financially. Rhetorical question, is it possible you wanted a family but didn’t want to do the work?  Perhaps outsourcing it because it is women’s work. Aside from what you have said, another clue to this mentality is you chose an occupation that allowed you to be absent at home leaving the unglamorous tasks of child rearing to your wife.

I understand the middle work is hard, the everyday stuff, the tough conversations, trying to connect with your partner when you can't seem to connect. Being the parent working you get to be the hero who drops out of your actual life 80-100 days of the year and has control of the money. Do you really want to do the work or are you glad to outsource this? For instance, you mentioned you can't close the pool because of the boys (people in FL live without pools) and that your wife won’t let you potty train, wtf? Are you so afraid of being the enemy to your children that you can’t parent?

It does sound like the relationship is over, but you need to take responsibility for your life. Divorce if it needs to be done. After the split you will still be a parent. You cannot control your spouse and kids and what they say and think about you, that is not your business. Get on with the business of being a father (and speak respectfully about their mother to them) regardless of what your spouse does and says.

Regardless of how “crazy” you wife is, take some responsibility for your life choices. If she’s into “weird stuff” like feng shui (by the way, weird is going to depend on what culture you come from since feng shui and astrology are very normal and accepted practices in places around the world). Anyway, her hobbies aren’t really your business to judge. Another choice for you, is you could show some interest in the things your partner is interested in. Nobody forced you to marry your wife, you chose her for a reason, you made a ton of choices that got you here. If you don’t face your part in this, it will just happen again.

Strategies: Get some therapy. Read about tendencies that children of alcoholics have as adults (workaholism being one). Cut alcohol and other substances out of your life. Pete Walker’s book about CPTSD is one of the best out there. Honestly reflect upon your part in this. Consider how your worldview is not automatically shared by others and consider prejudices you might have that aren’t apparent to you. Prejudices that you may unwittingly pass along to your children.

[davef]

Wow.
There is a lot there.... A lot to think about.
 "is it possible you wanted a family but didn’t want to do the work? "

What does that mean? I make the kids breakfast every, because my wife sleeps till 7, I  swim with them every afternoon (taught them all to swim), make them dinner every night, help them with piano and homework, Both are well above grade level thanks to study with me), I read to them every night because my wife turns on the TV at 6pm and retreats to her room to stream another show, I tuck them in every night. I change every diaper that needs changed when I am home. I do half of the household cleaning and 100% of the Maintenace, I make 100% of the $.  Don't want the work? NO I just don't want to do it alone. I want a partner.

Yes, She has the kids when I am gone maybe 80 days a year. She shuttles them to school. I have them the other 285 days, in addition to everything else.

 "So, you chose a partner you didn’t have a solid relationship with and didn’t seem to prioritize the communication piece so you could get on the same page" I think I worked very hard on communicating with her. I try every day. Ive read dozens of books on effective communication, attachment, etc. Its her that has given up. 

I dont need to close the pool. I'm not in a dire financial situation. as I explained. I dont mind feng shui, until she wants to make changes that cost thousands of dollars based on it. I have encouraged her hobbies. I bought her a circut, so she could do craft stuff. I thought she could make money with it.... she says no... I encouraged her to make friends and go dancing every week so she can get a night away.... and she does, at least once a week.

Yes, I guess you are right in a way. Its my fault. I should have never married her. And, I should have left sooner when I knew she was crazy. but I do love my boys. I wouldn't trade them for anything.

[JupiterGreen]

Wow.
There is a lot there.... A lot to think about.
 "is it possible you wanted a family but didn’t want to do the work? "

What does that mean?

I'm just some rando on the internet trying to give you advice to take the reins of your own life, finances, and to be honest about what got you here so you don't live life on repeat. I have no personal knowledge of the situation only suggestions for things to consider. My response was based 100% off of what you have shared. You can (and it sounds like probably should) get divorced. But that doesn't change the path that got you here and it seems like it deserves a little reflection on your part. That's it in a nutshell.   

Edit: Any questions in my response were rhetorical. I wish you well on your disentanglement.

[Dicey]

I also wanted to come back and say that I am sorry you are going thru so much at this point in your life. Trying to rein in a budget while having marital issues is no picnic and I commend you for wanting to improve both. Best of luck.

I want to thank you for using the correct form of "rein."

OP: One way to manage HOA costs is to attend board meetings. If possible, join the board!

OP2: I get that what you do is important. My Dad was an Air Traffic Controller and had several friends who were NTSB Accident Investigators. Thing is, he knew these guys because they were ATCs first. They retired after their kids were grown and then took jobs like yours. I know this firsthand, because I used to babysit their kids. Look around to see where else you can put your skills to good use.

[Geppetto]

I'd encourage you to take another shot at marriage counseling. Life can be surprising. Right now she's asking you to do it. Someday she won't be. Family is the most important thing. No stone unturned.

Allow me a couple observations / suggestions.

I don't care how much work you do when you're at home: if you're on the road for 100 days a year, that lady is doing a lot for the family. Does she coast a bit when you're around? Probably. Scorekeeping in these matters is guaranteed misery for all. Do what you gotta do, fugeddaboudit, and do it again the next day, hoping you'll eventually learn to be happy about it and maybe see some reciprocation that isn't currently happening. It's the only way, no matter who you married. Life is work.

You have a kid who "only eats fish". Give him a fishing pole, and tell him he can either eat the fish he caught that day and cooked for himself, or he can have what everybody else is having. Perhaps he won't be happy for a little while. But you and your wife will be, and His Lordship will not die of starvation I assure you. You must achieve a reasonable understanding with your children about what they get to dictate and what they do not. Family life among humans requires that. Benefits will abound in areas you wouldn't predict. (I am assuming here that your son is not afflicted with some unheard-of syndrome requiring the diet of a Kodiak bear in spring for his very survival. If I've misjudged the matter, disregard.) 

[TheFrenchCat]

Given your experience last time, I'm not sure if I would jump back into couples counseling if I were in your shoes.  Not saying that's a bad idea, but I can see why you're reluctant.  I would strongly advise you get individual therapy though.  That would hopefully help you sort out what you actually want and how to get there.

I think there are some costs you could influence, even in the event of a divorce.  You could eat out less, both on your own and when you would have your kids.  Even if you were paying for your wife and kids to eat out just as much as before, just cutting your portion might help.  You could make different grocery choices, try to enforce stricter rules on things that waste utilities, etc.  I honestly don't want to nitpick your budget right now, though.  It seems to me like you need to focus on survival and your next steps for now.  But I don't want you to feel trapped by the budget, since there's probably a lot of influence you can have there.  I don't think it's as simple as you'll have all your current expenses+new living expenses for you.

[davef]

  I would strongly advise you get individual therapy though.  That would hopefully help you sort out what you actually want and how to get there.

I did that too. I worked ok as far as I can tell. She gave me some things to try, they didn't work, and she helped me conclude to divorce. I Just couldn't do it, not yet at least because I am afraid I wont see my boys. or rarely see them. Again, my wife accused me of an affair with that therapist too. So, I stopped. Anymore it seems like se accuses me of an affair with every person I meet. I have been faithful to her since out first date...for 18 years.

Geppetto, Hes not high minded about it. He just wont eat stuff we eat. So, I buy him a 20$ salmon fillet on monday and he eats it happily with rice for 5 days. A 4$ meal is tolerable to me. If we dont have salmon, he just doesnt eat...  There are meals once or twice a week where I tell him, we are out of salmon, you eat what we eat or you don't eat. I think you can establish control without being entirely uncompromising....

[use2betrix]

She shuttles them to school. I have them the other 285 days, in addition to everything else.

Does your 3 year old go to daycare/pre-school or does he stay home with your wife?

[Geppetto]

Dave, my comment on the fish thing wasn't about money. It's about esprit de corps. I fully agree with you that you have to pick your battles wisely, and take a light hand on what's negotiable. But I do believe I've observed a pattern in the families I interact with including my own, and that pattern goes like this: if the kids believe they can order whatever they want for dinner, neither the kids nor the parents tend to be happy people, and if the kids contentedly chow down on what's put in front of them, both the kids and the parents tend to be generally happy people. It's obviously about lots more than what's for dinner. It's about overall culture. But behavior at family meals is a "leading indicator" shall we say.

When you say he will not eat anything else, I promise you, will not be the case for more than a day. All you have to do is not buy fish, and tell him your family doesn't do special order kid meals anymore. If you do this, I believe your son and your household will profit from it.

Lastly, let me say I'm impressed with the kid that fish is what he settled on as his only food of choice. Instead of Froot Loops or something. He sounds like a cool kid. 

[davef]

All my boys love salmon. Maybe is because they are Asian, or because we used to live in Oregon where it was 5$ a pound.
Noted. and I am working toward that....

use2betrix
He is not in daycare. after she drops the oldest 2 off at school she does activities with him one or 2 days a week but by 11 every day he is home and watching paw patrol until naptime 1pm, often he plays by himself while she cleans or gardens mid-day. Hes super self-sufficient. I work from home most of the time. So, I cook them lunch and play with him a little during the day.

[Zikoris]

I don't have kids, but god damn the idea of a kid demanding daily salmon meals, and the parents actually going along with that, is so over-the-top insane that it's hard to believe it's even real. Be aware that there are long-term consequences to raising spoiled and entitled kids, and this will absolutely come back to bite you in the ass.