The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: overlord34 on April 11, 2017, 09:58:15 PM
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Hi all,
38 y/o married, male, been working toward FIRE for several years now. Once upon a time my wife was also intrigued but is no longer interested as of a couple of years ago (mostly my fault for being too extreme about our expenses). In theory I think she likes the idea of FIRE but she feels it's too restrictive and wants more spending flexibility. She's not a spendthrift by any means but tends to spend more than I do when something will make her life more convenient or comfortable.
We have shared savings and we also have our own separate savings. From my savings, I'm pretty close to FIRE for myself. Recently however, she told me that if I do pull the plug at some point while she's still working, she's worried she might wind up resenting me because she'd be working and I wouldn't. She's also concerned that we'd be living different lives if she's doing a 9-5 and I have my days free.
It's unlikely she'd be able to save enough on her own to early retire since her earning capacity is limited (public sector job). I also work in the public sector and earn a modest salary but it's still twice as much as she earns. So I've done most of the saving in our relationship simply because it's been more within my means. I'd love for us both to be FIRE, but if I decided to push back any FIRE date until I could save enough for both of us to early retire, it might take me several more years - both because I'm saving for 2 people and because her spending requirements are higher than mine.
Perhaps I'm being selfish and need to look at this as a situation where our marriage either means that we should both be FIRE or neither of us should be. But she doesn't really seem to want FIRE as much as I do and if push came to shove, I think she'd prefer a normal retirement over making harder spending choices that would facilitate FIRE. So those things make it harder for me to work toward pursuing FIRE for both of us. And I've read some of the marital finance threads here and it doesn't seem that unusual for married couples to keep separate finances?
Any advice or thoughts on our situation would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
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Of course, it's a decision you both need to make together. What are all the possibilities? Which ones are acceptable to you, and which to her, and where's the overlap?
Such as, can you save enough to FIRE her at your level of expenses, and leave her working just for any extra spending she wants? If she feels like the decision is one that she has had equal input into, could she be more confident that she won't have resentment, and/or any resentment is hers to manage? What would you need to do to reassure her that you wouldn't be living different lives, and how could you commit to doing that? Is there a way to build in flexibility, or to try out different options? (Could you take a sabbatical to try out how she feels about FIRE; would it be possible to try out a lower level of spending for 6 months, etc) Could she start skilling up now for a part time or freelance job that she could keep going indefinitely to reduce the extra amount you'd have to save, while still having the freedom to enjoy partial FIRE with you?
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Whats wrong with working till you are both able to quit your jobs? You married this person knowing you will both be making a life together, right?
I think some people take the early retirement thing a little too extreme where it becomes an obsession. Not saying this is you but you're only 39 and married to another human being. Its not a race against time. What does "several more years" actually mean?
Personally, I believe that when you are married it means that either WE are retired or WE are not retired. There is no you and me.
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I FIREd over a year before my husband. He loved it. Freaking loved it.
I got up and made him breakfast from scratch most mornings. I packed his lunch for him, including lots of snacks and home made food (which he enjoys).
I did 95% of the errands, meal prep, cooking and housework/yard work. He literally had his job to do, but came home every day to a cleaned house, a home cooked meal, and a happy and loving spouse. He was fine helping out more, but I told him one of the benefits of having a stay at home spouse was that he wouldn't have to do nearly as much.
And another benefit was that I could save us a ton of money by being a better shopper, cooking better food the majority of the time, doing a better job on tracking down deals and haggling over any work to be done, etc. So things she might have paid more money to provide conveniences for are no longer as necessary since you'll be taking over as a "convenience/comfort provider" - meaning she can save more of her money for herself.
It may sound like I was doing lots and lots of work, but in reality most everything took me under 2-3 hours a day, and could be spaced out as much as I wanted, so I was able to fit in lots of napping, loafing, piddling around with my computer or hobbies.
And the fact that I could get all the errands and chores done during the week meant we both had the weekends completely free for whatever the hell we felt like doing. Even the evening hours after he got home from work were better and more about quality time for the most part. So sure, you could lead separate lives, or you could maximize your available time together even more so with you able to get all the pesky day-to-day crap done when she's not there (and she doesn't have to do much of it at all).
If your spouse is dead set on you not being able to retire before her, then you may want to have a discussion about what exactly you will be doing while she's at work. If she thinks she'll still need to be responsible for a whole bunch of household chores while you do very little other than loaf/piddle with hobbies, then yes, that could be a big perception issue you need to deal with.
Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that you actually will want to take on all of that stuff in the interest of having the majority of your days free from working. It would really suck if you were wanting to quit work and pay a maid to clean your house, eat out or stop off at fast food to feed yourselves and rarely bothered to do things in general around the house (especially if you expected her to kick in on those costs) while pursuing your own agenda. I could see her point if this is more what might happen. But only you know what type of FIRE you're planning for yourself, and whether it is something that should be genuinely worrying your spouse.
There is the argument that you could work another few years to get to the shared goal that would enable your spouse to feel good about quitting. If it is a difference of a few years, and the place you're at isn't a hell on earth, it might be worth it. But I don't think you should be held hostage at a job just because your spouse can't deal with the idea of you wanting to stop working. So really, it means sitting down and talking all this stuff through until you come to a shared agreement/compromise that you both can live with.
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I don't think I would want to retire without my wife, and you've already identified some of the reasons why.
If one of us retires before the other one, the working spouse may resent the retired spouse and the retired spouse may feel guilty living a life of freedom while being supported by the working spouse. I don't think it really matters which is which.
But the opposite is also true. If one spouse is ready to retire and one spouse isn't, doesn't the ready spouse risk resenting the unready spouse for forcing the ready spouse to continue suffering through an unbearable job, and doesn't the unready spouse risk feeling guilty about doing so?
It seems better to retire simultaneously if at all possible, or at least have these conversations openly ASAP so that you can prepare to deal with these issues.
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While I think many couples keep some of their finances separate, I think you need a financial plan that accounts for the two of you as a unit.
One of you might want to keep working for any number of reasons, and that's an individual decision, but one that you need to fit into your plans together.
And a lot depends on what you plan to do in retirement. If you are sleeping until noon and watching tv the rest of the day, and still expecting me to come home and cook dinner, I will definitely not be enthusiastic about that plan. If you are retiring and handling a lot of day to day chores that make my life easier as well, you'll get a lot more support from me.
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Hi all,
38 y/o married, male, been working toward FIRE for several years now. Once upon a time my wife was also intrigued but is no longer interested as of a couple of years ago (mostly my fault for being too extreme about our expenses). In theory I think she likes the idea of FIRE but she feels it's too restrictive and wants more spending flexibility. She's not a spendthrift by any means but tends to spend more than I do when something will make her life more convenient or comfortable.
We have shared savings and we also have our own separate savings. From my savings, I'm pretty close to FIRE for myself. Recently however, she told me that if I do pull the plug at some point while she's still working, she's worried she might wind up resenting me because she'd be working and I wouldn't. She's also concerned that we'd be living different lives if she's doing a 9-5 and I have my days free.
It's unlikely she'd be able to save enough on her own to early retire since her earning capacity is limited (public sector job). I also work in the public sector and earn a modest salary but it's still twice as much as she earns. So I've done most of the saving in our relationship simply because it's been more within my means. I'd love for us both to be FIRE, but if I decided to push back any FIRE date until I could save enough for both of us to early retire, it might take me several more years - both because I'm saving for 2 people and because her spending requirements are higher than mine.
Perhaps I'm being selfish and need to look at this as a situation where our marriage either means that we should both be FIRE or neither of us should be. But she doesn't really seem to want FIRE as much as I do and if push came to shove, I think she'd prefer a normal retirement over making harder spending choices that would facilitate FIRE. So those things make it harder for me to work toward pursuing FIRE for both of us. And I've read some of the marital finance threads here and it doesn't seem that unusual for married couples to keep separate finances?
Any advice or thoughts on our situation would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
Sounds passive-aggressive to me.
You're not being selfish for wanting to retire early - and even if you are, that's definitely less selfish than someone who wants you to work so she feels better about herself. Although I don't know either of you, I am worried you will come to resent her when you're working years past your FIRE date for no reason other than keeping her resentment at bay. You will need to negotiate and reach some compromise, just don't forget that you deserve happiness as well, especially considering all the hard work you're putting into FI.
If all goes well, my spouse will retire 20 years after I do, and yet she is genuinely happy for me.
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I am in a similar boat b/c i make almost 2x what my wife does even though we're both engineers. add to that the incredible company i work for with insane retirement benefits and I could FIRE at around 32-34. I'm not going to FIRE then b/c that would require my wife to work into her mid to late 40s just to be able to sustain her portion of the expenses. So i'm going to work til 37 or so, at taht point we're 100% FI and if my wife wants to keep working she can but she wont have to and neither will I. I cant imagine FIREing without my wife and dont think its necessarily fair to do so. Now once we are FI and if she wants to make the choice to work b/c she enjoys it thats much different.
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Don't forget the point to this whole FIRE thing --> Happiness.
Could you be happy if your spouse is not? If so, is it sustainable? Marriage is about compromise and finding a middle ground. Find it.
JGS
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How do you guys do your finances? If she makes half as much as you but is responsible for 50% of the household bills, it is going to take her much longer to be able to save "her" share. In that case, something like a 2/3-1/3 split may provide a way to split the difference.
But regardless of how you do it, you guys need to talk and be on the same page first -- there are as many different ways to manage this as there are people, but you guys are a team, and that means you need to figure out what works for both of you. I like the idea expressed above of figuring out what your basic FIRE budget is (the one you feel comfortable with), making sure you guys have that saved, and then if she decides to continue to work, it is simply for the "extras" that she wants. But also make sure to talk through the emotions involved -- maybe she defines herself by her job, maybe she is scared of running out of money, maybe she has no clue what she wants to do if she doesn't go to to work every day, maybe she is just scarded of change, etc.
And then definitely what Frankies Girl said: if you do decide to FIRE before her, figure out a way that your decision would make her life better.
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If you're not FI together, you're not FI.
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How much more does she spend on things than you relative to your incomes? Are we talking an extra $100-200/month on restaurants and frivolous things, or a new BMW every 3 years? If you're roughly close in spending habits, I say wait it out and both retire at the same time. When you say separate finances, are you talking salary too? Like are you expecting her to spend half as much as you since she makes half as much? That would seem unreasonable to me. I'd combine the two salaries and split down the middle for each "separate" income.
If she wants to be a big baller and churn through money way faster than you, then you need to have a discussion about why you don't want to do that. That discussion should include the worry of resentment in both possible outcomes, similar to what sol posted above. Tread lightly though, and try to avoid much finger pointing.
If you have a very open conversation about how you value your freedom and time, and she clearly decides she'd rather buy lots of fancy things than retire early, I think you've done all you can to avoid resentment.
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I FIREd over a year before my husband. He loved it. Freaking loved it.
I got up and made him breakfast from scratch most mornings. I packed his lunch for him, including lots of snacks and home made food (which he enjoys).
I did 95% of the errands, meal prep, cooking and housework/yard work. He literally had his job to do, but came home every day to a cleaned house, a home cooked meal, and a happy and loving spouse. He was fine helping out more, but I told him one of the benefits of having a stay at home spouse was that he wouldn't have to do nearly as much.
And another benefit was that I could save us a ton of money by being a better shopper, cooking better food the majority of the time, doing a better job on tracking down deals and haggling over any work to be done, etc. So things she might have paid more money to provide conveniences for are no longer as necessary since you'll be taking over as a "convenience/comfort provider" - meaning she can save more of her money for herself.
It may sound like I was doing lots and lots of work, but in reality most everything took me under 2-3 hours a day, and could be spaced out as much as I wanted, so I was able to fit in lots of napping, loafing, piddling around with my computer or hobbies.
And the fact that I could get all the errands and chores done during the week meant we both had the weekends completely free for whatever the hell we felt like doing. Even the evening hours after he got home from work were better and more about quality time for the most part. So sure, you could lead separate lives, or you could maximize your available time together even more so with you able to get all the pesky day-to-day crap done when she's not there (and she doesn't have to do much of it at all).
If your spouse is dead set on you not being able to retire before her, then you may want to have a discussion about what exactly you will be doing while she's at work. If she thinks she'll still need to be responsible for a whole bunch of household chores while you do very little other than loaf/piddle with hobbies, then yes, that could be a big perception issue you need to deal with.
Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that you actually will want to take on all of that stuff in the interest of having the majority of your days free from working. It would really suck if you were wanting to quit work and pay a maid to clean your house, eat out or stop off at fast food to feed yourselves and rarely bothered to do things in general around the house (especially if you expected her to kick in on those costs) while pursuing your own agenda. I could see her point if this is more what might happen. But only you know what type of FIRE you're planning for yourself, and whether it is something that should be genuinely worrying your spouse.
There is the argument that you could work another few years to get to the shared goal that would enable your spouse to feel good about quitting. If it is a difference of a few years, and the place you're at isn't a hell on earth, it might be worth it. But I don't think you should be held hostage at a job just because your spouse can't deal with the idea of you wanting to stop working. So really, it means sitting down and talking all this stuff through until you come to a shared agreement/compromise that you both can live with.
This has been my experience (and I think the main thing was that I was happier, over the great home-cooked meals and house chores being done)...and I second the suggestion to see if you can do a sabbatical of some sort to try it out.
And of course it all depends on what you two can work out...perhaps split the difference, where you keep working (or work part time!) after you own potential FIRE date, but she continues working a little while longer (and gets to luxuriate in the afterglow of your domestic prowess)...
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I don't get a marriage where each person is 100% responsible for only themselves. If you had gotten sick ten years ago and were unable to work, would she have just kicked you to the curb since you couldn't pay your share of the expenses?
Are you responsible for your own laundry and cooking and buying the food you consume? Or do you have some sort of tit-for-tat chore division, like she does laundry for both and you do cooking for both? Genuinely curious, please explain more about this aspect of your marriage.
Also it's interesting how many males make more than females for sexism reasons (not always, but sometimes it's sexism). I agree that all income should be added together then split 50-50 for just that reason.
I agree with the plan where you need to both be FIRED at some basic level (rent, food, everything you do TOGETHER like travel or restaurants) and then if she wants extra spending money she can be responsible for that.
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This sounds like a situation requiring compromise. If, for example, right now it would take ten extra years to FIRE with her spending habits, maybe you could work out the finances together to make it five.
A lot of my husband's and my money is separate, but our pay (after auto-deductions for retirement accounts) goes into a big pool from which we get equal amounts of spending and savings money. I make about twice as much as him, but we both get the exact same monthly allowance. What we do with that is wildly different -- I save most of mine and he spends all of his -- but it doesn't affect shared things like retirement savings, vacation savings, bills, etc. in the least. One of us may retire before the other, but it won't be until we are both *able* to.
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I don't get a marriage where each person is 100% responsible for only themselves. If you had gotten sick ten years ago and were unable to work, would she have just kicked you to the curb since you couldn't pay your share of the expenses?
Are you responsible for your own laundry and cooking and buying the food you consume? Or do you have some sort of tit-for-tat chore division, like she does laundry for both and you do cooking for both? Genuinely curious, please explain more about this aspect of your marriage.
Also it's interesting how many males make more than females for sexism reasons (not always, but sometimes it's sexism). I agree that all income should be added together then split 50-50 for just that reason.
I agree with the plan where you need to both be FIRED at some basic level (rent, food, everything you do TOGETHER like travel or restaurants) and then if she wants extra spending money she can be responsible for that.
Sorry, but many males do not make more than females for sexism reasons in general. Though the issue is due to gender, it is actually illegal and quite rare that a man and woman with the same level of qualification, the same amount of work in the same location and job make a different amount due to their gender. If one can prove this is happening this can lead to a very pricey lawsuit for the employer. The 77 cents to a dollar comparison and other similar ones are where you add up all men's earnings divided by the amount of men and all women's earnings divided by the amount of women and compare. For comparison more recent statistics are actually showing that women are the majority of college and university graduates now and under 30 without kids women are actually outearning men in the same situation. EDIT This is the case in many western countries, this might not apply outside of these.
As for the OP:
I would say trying to work to be able to FIRE at the same time is the optimal option, however depending on how much she is willing to work towards FIRE this also may lead to resentment the other way as mentioned. If you have been making your own breakfast, lunches and dinners instead of eating out and spending as little non-essential as possible while she has been eating out left and right and spending freely with little to no intention to FIRE and now expects you to keep working for many many years so she can FIRE without having to actually make many adjustments herself this is bound to breed resentment the other direction. If however she already is pretty close to your dedication in getting FIREd or is willing to make reasonable adjustments I think it is only fair to help her get to that point.
A big one though is get to the bottom of if she actually wants to FIRE or will want to keep working no matter what yet still resent you if you don't.
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My wife and I had a similar conversation about being worried about resentment, although for different reasons.
My wife 100% loves her career (she is a music teacher and has wanted to be a music teacher her entire life) and unless there is a major upset to her work environment (change in administration, budget cuts, etc), she has a hard time imagining herself leaving the profession early. For me, on the other hand, I enjoy teaching well enough as a "day job", but I would like more freedom to pursue a variety of interests than I can get while holding a full-time job.
We've had some mini-experiments with this when our vacation breaks don't line up. It's tough to be the person going to work when the other person isn't and it's equally lonely / boring to be the person at home while the person you want to spend time with is busy. Without good communication in place, I think it will take a lot of communication to reset the norms around the house if one partner is working full-time and the other isn't. You've spent years developing routines and a division of labor that (hopefully) everybody is happy with -- it's going to take a while to change them!
Like others have said, keep talking about it. What do you think your FIRE going to look like? What are her fears? How do you compromise between the two? Partial retirement? Mild career change? Are you willing/planning to take on additional household duties?
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Would it it help the potential resentment if you agreed to take on all of the household chores (including grocery shopping and cooking if those are not things she enjoys) and maintenance as your "job"? That way, when she comes home in the evening she has nothing to worry about other than relaxing and spending time with you, and nothing on weekends either.
Alternately, would you be willing to pick up a (part time?) job doing something you'd enjoy or related to a hobby? I know lots of people around here (myself included) plan to work after "retirement." What about just doing lots and lots of volunteering (if you're into that)?
It might be worthwhile to determine the source of that resentment. Is it because she's spending butt-in-chair hours and you're not? Is it because she's actively bringing in income and you're not? A little bit of both? Some other reason entirely? Understanding this might help you develop a strategy for dealing with it.
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Thanks everyone for all this great advice!
I do see where she is coming from because she wants to lead a "traditional" life like most people live. So FIRE would be a hard thing for most people to accept. And there's practical implications to FIRE too; less income coming in means it's harder to live the more traditional life she wants. At the same time, sol and far raised a good issue about guilt and resentment if I have to delay FIRE or - gasp - scrap the idea altogether.
JGS - maybe I am choosing my unhappiness. Either I'm unhappy where my spouse is not happy if I am FIRE, or I am unhappy myself if I'm not FIRE.
Frankies thanks for painting a picture for me about what FIRE might look like with one spouse working and one spouse not. I would certainly see it as my responsibility to take on most or all of the household chores if I had my days free. We've talked about that but not really with the level of detail about what a typical day might look like. That might help.
Laura - 2/3 and 1/3 split might work, that's a good idea. I think the emotional issues are as problematic for her as the practical ones. She's worried that if I FIRE, she wouldn't be a unit, but rather living separate lives. At the same time I do think it would be harder for her to be FIRE too because she sees it as more risky, not able to bring in enough income, and also she'd probably be unsure about what to do with her time.
Part of the problem also is that we live in NYC (work, family, and friends live here). So what would be reasonable elsewhere is just harder here. For example we live in a studio apartment right now that we own. She wants a little more space and privacy so wants to move to a 1br. If we sold this apt though and rented a 1br, we might pay $1000-$1300 more per month. The 1br would also probably be located in a neighborhood where it's more difficult to park on the street so she'd want to pay to keep the car in a garage. So these are the kinds of things where even if I could FIRE and pay for them, a 50-50 split might mean she'd be saving almost nothing.
I really like englyn's suggestion about considering FIRE'ing both of us at a certain level and then she can work if she wants to increase her expenses. Or maybe a situation where even if she has to work, it only has to be on a part-time basis.
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my wife and i have talked about the part where she would keep working so she could spend more money as well. i think when it comes down to it she will see how much we have and need and will just cut the cord when i do.
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As for the OP:
I would say trying to work to be able to FIRE at the same time is the optimal option, however depending on how much she is willing to work towards FIRE this also may lead to resentment the other way as mentioned. If you have been making your own breakfast, lunches and dinners instead of eating out and spending as little non-essential as possible while she has been eating out left and right and spending freely with little to no intention to FIRE and now expects you to keep working for many many years so she can FIRE without having to actually make many adjustments herself this is bound to breed resentment the other direction. If however she already is pretty close to your dedication in getting FIREd or is willing to make reasonable adjustments I think it is only fair to help her get to that point.
A big one though is get to the bottom of if she actually wants to FIRE or will want to keep working no matter what yet still resent you if you don't.
This is great advice and really resonates with me, thank you!
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I don't get a marriage where each person is 100% responsible for only themselves. If you had gotten sick ten years ago and were unable to work, would she have just kicked you to the curb since you couldn't pay your share of the expenses?
Are you responsible for your own laundry and cooking and buying the food you consume? Or do you have some sort of tit-for-tat chore division, like she does laundry for both and you do cooking for both? Genuinely curious, please explain more about this aspect of your marriage.
We're not 100% only for ourselves. We have a substantial amount of shared savings and regularly share chores. We just decided a couple of years ago to split finances because I wanted to FIRE and she didn't. This doesn't seem any different from the way I've read other couples on her keep their finances.
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I can't even comprehend how couples split this stuff up.
We have 1 bank account that we both direct deposit into, shared investments (except employer plans, and IRAs) and even then, it's all on personal capital together.
You are NOT FI if your wife isn't, the law sees you as one financial unit. You have subdivided that, presumably against the fact that you got married to consolidate.
Is this common? We share everything, and openly talk about issues as they come up.
Also, I make 4 times what she makes, so equality in income isn't at play here.
Genuinely curious, because to me, it certainly seems 'less' married to a degree. (Try not to read that in an offensive way, couldn't find better words for it)
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
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I can't even comprehend how couples split this stuff up.
We have 1 bank account that we both direct deposit into, shared investments (except employer plans, and IRAs) and even then, it's all on personal capital together.
You are NOT FI if your wife isn't, the law sees you as one financial unit. You have subdivided that, presumably against the fact that you got married to consolidate.
Is this common? We share everything, and openly talk about issues as they come up.
Also, I make 4 times what she makes, so equality in income isn't at play here.
Genuinely curious, because to me, it certainly seems 'less' married to a degree. (Try not to read that in an offensive way, couldn't find better words for it)
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
i think keeping seperate finances doesnt make you less married. we combine things that are joint and we basically keep our own spending money seperarate. now when we FIRE all our money is goign to be in one pool and shared so thats going to be different but we have joint Credit cards for joint purchases. the only difference would be our spending money that we can do whatever we wanted with would come from the big joint pool of money. vs our current employers.
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I can't even comprehend how couples split this stuff up.
We have 1 bank account that we both direct deposit into, shared investments (except employer plans, and IRAs) and even then, it's all on personal capital together.
You are NOT FI if your wife isn't, the law sees you as one financial unit. You have subdivided that, presumably against the fact that you got married to consolidate.
Is this common? We share everything, and openly talk about issues as they come up.
Also, I make 4 times what she makes, so equality in income isn't at play here.
Genuinely curious, because to me, it certainly seems 'less' married to a degree. (Try not to read that in an offensive way, couldn't find better words for it)
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
i think keeping seperate finances doesnt make you less married. we combine things that are joint and we basically keep our own spending money seperarate. now when we FIRE all our money is goign to be in one pool and shared so thats going to be different but we have joint Credit cards for joint purchases. the only difference would be our spending money that we can do whatever we wanted with would come from the big joint pool of money. vs our current employers.
Right, 'less' married is a poor choice of words but certainly seems more separate in at least one degree.
What possible benefit does separately having spending money do for a couple? Do you not track spending at the end of the month together anyway? End of the year?
Seems like the exercise is either A. Untracked, and serves to increase spending or B. Tracked and is a total wash/pointless exercise.
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I can't even comprehend how couples split this stuff up.
We have 1 bank account that we both direct deposit into, shared investments (except employer plans, and IRAs) and even then, it's all on personal capital together.
You are NOT FI if your wife isn't, the law sees you as one financial unit. You have subdivided that, presumably against the fact that you got married to consolidate.
Is this common? We share everything, and openly talk about issues as they come up.
Also, I make 4 times what she makes, so equality in income isn't at play here.
Genuinely curious, because to me, it certainly seems 'less' married to a degree. (Try not to read that in an offensive way, couldn't find better words for it)
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
i think keeping seperate finances doesnt make you less married. we combine things that are joint and we basically keep our own spending money seperarate. now when we FIRE all our money is goign to be in one pool and shared so thats going to be different but we have joint Credit cards for joint purchases. the only difference would be our spending money that we can do whatever we wanted with would come from the big joint pool of money. vs our current employers.
Right, 'less' married is a poor choice of words but certainly seems more separate in at least one degree.
What possible benefit does separately having spending money do for a couple? Do you not track spending at the end of the month together anyway? End of the year?
Seems like the exercise is either A. Untracked, and serves to increase spending or B. Tracked and is a total wash/pointless exercise.
its all tracked on PC but leads to no fights or anything based on what we each spend our disposable income on. Its basically how we were setup prior to being married and it worked well so we just kept doing it. i would wager to guess 30% or more of couples here probably keep separate finances.
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I can't even comprehend how couples split this stuff up.
We have 1 bank account that we both direct deposit into, shared investments (except employer plans, and IRAs) and even then, it's all on personal capital together.
You are NOT FI if your wife isn't, the law sees you as one financial unit. You have subdivided that, presumably against the fact that you got married to consolidate.
Is this common? We share everything, and openly talk about issues as they come up.
Also, I make 4 times what she makes, so equality in income isn't at play here.
Genuinely curious, because to me, it certainly seems 'less' married to a degree. (Try not to read that in an offensive way, couldn't find better words for it)
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+1 except the less married part.
How do you even calculate your FI number if you don't include your spouse in that calculation? Even if my husband never wanted to stop working, I wouldn't think of either of us (as one financial unit) as being FI unless the family unit was FI, including any minor children if applicable.
This doesn't make any sense to me. I currently make almost 3x his salary. If he wanted to keep working after we reached FI for some reason (extra $, likes working, etc), that's fine, but I don't see how you unilaterally get to your "number" and leave your lower earning spouse to basically fend for themselves.
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I can't even comprehend how couples split this stuff up.
We have 1 bank account that we both direct deposit into, shared investments (except employer plans, and IRAs) and even then, it's all on personal capital together.
You are NOT FI if your wife isn't, the law sees you as one financial unit. You have subdivided that, presumably against the fact that you got married to consolidate.
Is this common? We share everything, and openly talk about issues as they come up.
Also, I make 4 times what she makes, so equality in income isn't at play here.
Genuinely curious, because to me, it certainly seems 'less' married to a degree. (Try not to read that in an offensive way, couldn't find better words for it)
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+1 except the less married part.
How do you even calculate your FI number if you don't include your spouse in that calculation? Even if my husband never wanted to stop working, I wouldn't think of either of us (as one financial unit) as being FI unless the family unit was FI, including any minor children if applicable.
This doesn't make any sense to me. I currently make almost 3x his salary. If he wanted to keep working after we reached FI for some reason (extra $, likes working, etc), that's fine, but I don't see how you unilaterally get to your "number" and leave your lower earning spouse to basically fend for themselves.
yeah i think there is quite a large difference between simply keeping separate finances and then using that to say i'm supporting my part i'm FIREd. While ours are seperate all of my personal calcs include the time at which we are both able to quit our jobs regardless of where the money came from to fund those FIRE accounts. Mine account for over 70% of our total but who really cares, and i couldnt imagine saying welp i'm done now you work 10 more years b/c you picked to make less money than i did.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought the split view of finances and effort was alien. I clicked because I'm planning to RE and DW isn't, but that happens after we're FI. If resentment brews, she'll be able to join me.
Maybe DW and I are just too much on the same page when it comes to expenses, but we've always treated money as ours, not his or hers. Even when I made 3x what she did, I never viewed it as my money because it came on my paycheck. We're a team. We have a household to run. All that money is available to meet our joint goals. We communicate on those goals up front. Then we communicate again on any spending more than a few bucks, even if it's just a heads up that money is being spent that's in the budget, so we're both informed. It's almost zero effort and gives both of us a say, even if it's almost always just a "go for it". And by joint I mean union, not intersection, so some stuff is just me or just her. But all of it fits within our savings goals.
Chores are the same. We have a set of things around the house that need doing and we do them. Sure, we have preferences and tend to split things that way, but if there's laundry to be done and DW can't get to it, I'm doing it. There's no scorecard or tally. No trading. Nobody owes the other anything; she doesn't have to vacuum because I did laundry. We both just work to keep the house running and reap the benefits of everything being done. If I RE and DW doesn't, I may do more, but big deal. If two people can do it while working full time, one person can do most while not working and still have time to spare.
This only works as long as both parties are interested in making it work, but boy does it.
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I FIREd over a year before my husband. He loved it. Freaking loved it.
I got up and made him breakfast from scratch most mornings. I packed his lunch for him, including lots of snacks and home made food (which he enjoys).
I did 95% of the errands, meal prep, cooking and housework/yard work. He literally had his job to do, but came home every day to a cleaned house, a home cooked meal, and a happy and loving spouse. He was fine helping out more, but I told him one of the benefits of having a stay at home spouse was that he wouldn't have to do nearly as much.
And another benefit was that I could save us a ton of money by being a better shopper, cooking better food the majority of the time, doing a better job on tracking down deals and haggling over any work to be done, etc. So things she might have paid more money to provide conveniences for are no longer as necessary since you'll be taking over as a "convenience/comfort provider" - meaning she can save more of her money for herself.
It may sound like I was doing lots and lots of work, but in reality most everything took me under 2-3 hours a day, and could be spaced out as much as I wanted, so I was able to fit in lots of napping, loafing, piddling around with my computer or hobbies.
And the fact that I could get all the errands and chores done during the week meant we both had the weekends completely free for whatever the hell we felt like doing. Even the evening hours after he got home from work were better and more about quality time for the most part. So sure, you could lead separate lives, or you could maximize your available time together even more so with you able to get all the pesky day-to-day crap done when she's not there (and she doesn't have to do much of it at all).
If your spouse is dead set on you not being able to retire before her, then you may want to have a discussion about what exactly you will be doing while she's at work. If she thinks she'll still need to be responsible for a whole bunch of household chores while you do very little other than loaf/piddle with hobbies, then yes, that could be a big perception issue you need to deal with.
Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that you actually will want to take on all of that stuff in the interest of having the majority of your days free from working. It would really suck if you were wanting to quit work and pay a maid to clean your house, eat out or stop off at fast food to feed yourselves and rarely bothered to do things in general around the house (especially if you expected her to kick in on those costs) while pursuing your own agenda. I could see her point if this is more what might happen. But only you know what type of FIRE you're planning for yourself, and whether it is something that should be genuinely worrying your spouse.
There is the argument that you could work another few years to get to the shared goal that would enable your spouse to feel good about quitting. If it is a difference of a few years, and the place you're at isn't a hell on earth, it might be worth it. But I don't think you should be held hostage at a job just because your spouse can't deal with the idea of you wanting to stop working. So really, it means sitting down and talking all this stuff through until you come to a shared agreement/compromise that you both can live with.
This is totally spot on an optimized.
It makes more sense from a financial perspective because of tax incentives as well as insurance.
I can understand how a spouse would be jealous if one person stays home and the other doesn't. However, it's potentially illogical and might reflect communication problems in the relationship. It's important to have discussions addressing questions like these:
-Do you want to retire early? If money isn't a factor?
-Do you want me to retire early? If money isn't a factor? (might be a relationship problem if the answer here is 'no')
-Is it important for us to retire at the same time?
In the case of the original poster, it probably makes more sense for him to keep working and his wife to retire, since he makes more money. But of course that doesn't factor in whether she wants to work or not.
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How do you even calculate your FI number if you don't include your spouse in that calculation? Even if my husband never wanted to stop working, I wouldn't think of either of us (as one financial unit) as being FI unless the family unit was FI, including any minor children if applicable.
This doesn't make any sense to me. I currently make almost 3x his salary. If he wanted to keep working after we reached FI for some reason (extra $, likes working, etc), that's fine, but I don't see how you unilaterally get to your "number" and leave your lower earning spouse to basically fend for themselves.
If one spouse drastically outspends the other, what is the "number" based on? If one spouse wants to buy a luxury car or upgrade the house, is that included in the FI "number"?
Alice and Bob are working towards FIRE. Alice makes 3x Bob's salary and has saved much of what is needed to retire as-is with an enjoyable lifestyle. They both have cars, laptops, and the funds to travel occasionally. They plan to FIRE next month but Bob has decided he wants a $70k Tesla. That would require Alice working another year; if she informs Bob that she's going to FIRE as planned and he can continue working to buy it, is he now left fending for himself? Will Bob grow resentful that Alice isn't helping him buy the Tesla? If Alice continues working, will she grow resentful of Bob's unnecessary purchase?
What if Alice wanted the Tesla and wants Bob to delay FIRE for a year because she doesn't quite make enough money after taxes? If Bob suggests that Alice just work for another 18 months, is Alice now left fending for herself? Who resents whom?
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Thanks everyone for all this great advice!
I do see where she is coming from because she wants to lead a "traditional" life like most people live. So FIRE would be a hard thing for most people to accept. And there's practical implications to FIRE too; less income coming in means it's harder to live the more traditional life she wants. At the same time, sol and far raised a good issue about guilt and resentment if I have to delay FIRE or - gasp - scrap the idea altogether.
JGS - maybe I am choosing my unhappiness. Either I'm unhappy where my spouse is not happy if I am FIRE, or I am unhappy myself if I'm not FIRE.
Frankies thanks for painting a picture for me about what FIRE might look like with one spouse working and one spouse not. I would certainly see it as my responsibility to take on most or all of the household chores if I had my days free. We've talked about that but not really with the level of detail about what a typical day might look like. That might help.
Laura - 2/3 and 1/3 split might work, that's a good idea. I think the emotional issues are as problematic for her as the practical ones. She's worried that if I FIRE, she wouldn't be a unit, but rather living separate lives. At the same time I do think it would be harder for her to be FIRE too because she sees it as more risky, not able to bring in enough income, and also she'd probably be unsure about what to do with her time.
Part of the problem also is that we live in NYC (work, family, and friends live here). So what would be reasonable elsewhere is just harder here. For example we live in a studio apartment right now that we own. She wants a little more space and privacy so wants to move to a 1br. If we sold this apt though and rented a 1br, we might pay $1000-$1300 more per month. The 1br would also probably be located in a neighborhood where it's more difficult to park on the street so she'd want to pay to keep the car in a garage. So these are the kinds of things where even if I could FIRE and pay for them, a 50-50 split might mean she'd be saving almost nothing.
I really like englyn's suggestion about considering FIRE'ing both of us at a certain level and then she can work if she wants to increase her expenses. Or maybe a situation where even if she has to work, it only has to be on a part-time basis.
There are some fundamental disagreements on lifestyle here. It looks to me like you've planned for a bare-bones level of FI and want to quit working when you get to that place. Meanwhile, your wife wants a bigger apartment (this is "bigger" in NYC world, I'm not facepunching here), and possibly a parking space for the car. I'll take your word that this will cost an extra $1500 per month, but that increases the size of the 'stache you need by almost $500,000. (1500*12=$18,000. $450,000 at 4%)
That's a pretty big disagreement.
Are you absolutely clear on what you both want? Can you find some type of middle ground in terms of apartment size, neighborhood, etc?
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How do you even calculate your FI number if you don't include your spouse in that calculation? Even if my husband never wanted to stop working, I wouldn't think of either of us (as one financial unit) as being FI unless the family unit was FI, including any minor children if applicable.
This doesn't make any sense to me. I currently make almost 3x his salary. If he wanted to keep working after we reached FI for some reason (extra $, likes working, etc), that's fine, but I don't see how you unilaterally get to your "number" and leave your lower earning spouse to basically fend for themselves.
If one spouse drastically outspends the other, what is the "number" based on? If one spouse wants to buy a luxury car or upgrade the house, is that included in the FI "number"?
Alice and Bob are working towards FIRE. Alice makes 3x Bob's salary and has saved much of what is needed to retire as-is with an enjoyable lifestyle. They both have cars, laptops, and the funds to travel occasionally. They plan to FIRE next month but Bob has decided he wants a $70k Tesla. That would require Alice working another year; if she informs Bob that she's going to FIRE as planned and he can continue working to buy it, is he now left fending for himself? Will Bob grow resentful that Alice isn't helping him buy the Tesla? If Alice continues working, will she grow resentful of Bob's unnecessary purchase?
What if Alice wanted the Tesla and wants Bob to delay FIRE for a year because she doesn't quite make enough money after taxes? If Bob suggests that Alice just work for another 18 months, is Alice now left fending for herself? Who resents whom?
Because the Tesla is a new purchase, both Bob and Alice have to agree to it.... or it doesn't happen (it's a major purchase, not a new razor). Alice should not have to work longer for Bob's indulgences. Now, if Bob needed surgery, then that's a different scenario, and Alice better damn well want to work longer to afford it. It's a difference between wants and needs.
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Ditto on the shared finances, shared goal, shared FI.
I make more than my wife too, but we max 2 457's, 2 403's, IRAs and wife has an HSA. If we didn't do this as a team, she wouldn't be able to fill her buckets, I'd be accelerating toward FI and we'd be paying higher taxes. Instead we max these accounts, live on the extra I get and keep working on our goal together. My favorite days are spending 12-15 hours working on our yard, house, or vacationing with her. There's no way I would want to be RE without my wife. But that's us, and we think marriage is about mutually assured success. With that said, we are pulling the trigger during 40, and should we need OMY or not, I will convince my wife to quit her job... and she will love doing what Frankies Girl did while I wrap things up.
Thoughts for OP.
If you are FI, does that mean you can cover the entire mortgage? Because if she is supporting her share, and she dies (unfortunate reality) you are not FI, you have to go back to work. Therefore you are dependent on earned income. If you are FI and can cover all expenses (minus her food and extra spending), how long does it take you two to save what's needed to meet her lifestyle needs? Ex... My FI number would be a lot different with a spouse who's family wasn't in Europe, but that's a cost I have to include, and I'm not FI unless my wife can see her family in FIRE whenever she wants. Should I be FI sooner because I can drive or take a 3 hour flight to see mine? Would that mean I don't go to Europe? No, it means we account for about 5k a year in travel. Yes, that means we have to save 125k for FIRE just to see family, that doesn't even account for our own vacations.
I guess you need to answer for yourself, that while you have met your personal goal... you've attached yourself to this human, who's happiness and success is part of you, and you two will have to compromise to satisfy and secure the other.
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We have a similar situation as the OP, except no resentment. We are also planning on retiring separately due to different wants and spending habits. Once I caught the FIRE bug, I explained to DH how we could both retire early, but it would mean that we forego certain luxuries. I laid out an extreme plan, a medium plan, and a ‘keep going as-is’ plan.
While he liked the idea of ER, there were certain things he wasn’t willing to do. For example, he doesn’t want to move from our big house (we built it, so emotionally attached), and he wants to keep his hobby habit ($1,000 per month). I agreed to work longer so we could stay in the house (since this was an existing commitment made by both), but I wasn’t willing to work another 7 years so we could support his hobby habit. He is willing to keep working, and says there isn’t much point in having all this time if he can’t do what he loves – I totally get it. However, he also understands that it’s unfair that I should work extra-long so that he can fund an excessive hobby.
So, we’ve agreed on cutting back on things that are fairly painless (groceries, fancy cars, fancy phones, eating out, etc.) – this results in me retiring in 3 years and him in 5 years. Longer than I wanted, but I’m okay with it and so is he.
To the OP: You need to think about what life will be like with you home and her at work – like FrankieGirl said, you need to paint a picture that is going to benefit her, too. But, at the end of the day, she needs to make a decision that says, “I want ‘things’ and I’m willing to work for them…. Or NOT”. It’s really her choice to make cutbacks on current/future spending decisions about the big things (bigger living quarters). I’m hoping you guys are not nitpicking on small things like cable, but rather the big ticket items. Things that you both already committed to should also be upheld, unless you both agree to dropping them.
Talk through it some more, find out what part she thinks she might resent, and see if there is something you can do to ease that (that doesn’t require you working longer!). Or ask the question, if you think you might resent it (or miss out), then are you willing to forego some of the luxuries so you can join me? This puts the decision/control with her. You guys may be able to meet in the middle somewhere.
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Consummate your finances.
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Because the Tesla is a new purchase, both Bob and Alice have to agree to it.... or it doesn't happen (it's a major purchase, not a new razor). Alice should not have to work longer for Bob's indulgences. Now, if Bob needed surgery, then that's a different scenario, and Alice better damn well want to work longer to afford it. It's a difference between wants and needs.
I'm not too hung up on simultaneous retirement, so I'd take a slightly softer approach. You want it, you're free to work longer to get it. Fully agree on necessities, though.
Now, I think if a Tesla had been something previously agreed to (for whatever reason) as a joint plan, then if somebody wanted to back out of that, there'd need to be convincing done. If the other person still really wanted that, I think it's unreasonable for the other party to back out unilaterally. Even if it's another year of work, it isn't worth the destruction of trust that would come with not doing what you'd agreed to.
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Suggestion: If you can go part time try easing into that, so she can see how much easier her day is on the days you are home. This would also allow you some time to develop a semi-profitable side hobby if that interests you that could further ease financial tensions.
My experience with this is sort of from the other side. My spouse had to leave a recent job, and took a ~16 hour a week one for a dollar less an hour and no overtime, because it was becoming intolerable. We went from a 45/55% total income split to me earning about 80% of the income. It was not what I signed up for and I was anticipating my stress and resentment would go through the roof since some shared goals would be delayed. Well, it hasn't worked out that way. I love it. Money isn't great but having a reduced housework load and a happier partner has made things better.
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so if you're both stranded on a deserted island, and you worked building fires to signal passing ships and she didn't because she enjoyed the island, you'd leave her there by herself?
i don't understand not figuring her into your FIRE calculations.
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I FIREd over a year before my husband. He loved it. Freaking loved it.
I got up and made him breakfast from scratch most mornings. I packed his lunch for him, including lots of snacks and home made food (which he enjoys).
I did 95% of the errands, meal prep, cooking and housework/yard work. He literally had his job to do, but came home every day to a cleaned house, a home cooked meal, and a happy and loving spouse. He was fine helping out more, but I told him one of the benefits of having a stay at home spouse was that he wouldn't have to do nearly as much.
And another benefit was that I could save us a ton of money by being a better shopper, cooking better food the majority of the time, doing a better job on tracking down deals and haggling over any work to be done, etc. So things she might have paid more money to provide conveniences for are no longer as necessary since you'll be taking over as a "convenience/comfort provider" - meaning she can save more of her money for herself.
FG, will you marry me? If all women had wives , we would rule the world!
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I posted about a similar scenario a few months ago. I'm 37 and ready to FIRE. I want to go forward living and exploring and my spouse is not... like "let's work another 14-15 more years" kinda not. The problem is that both of us could FIRE right now. It stinks.
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How do you even calculate your FI number if you don't include your spouse in that calculation? Even if my husband never wanted to stop working, I wouldn't think of either of us (as one financial unit) as being FI unless the family unit was FI, including any minor children if applicable.
This doesn't make any sense to me. I currently make almost 3x his salary. If he wanted to keep working after we reached FI for some reason (extra $, likes working, etc), that's fine, but I don't see how you unilaterally get to your "number" and leave your lower earning spouse to basically fend for themselves.
If one spouse drastically outspends the other, what is the "number" based on? If one spouse wants to buy a luxury car or upgrade the house, is that included in the FI "number"?
Alice and Bob are working towards FIRE. Alice makes 3x Bob's salary and has saved much of what is needed to retire as-is with an enjoyable lifestyle. They both have cars, laptops, and the funds to travel occasionally. They plan to FIRE next month but Bob has decided he wants a $70k Tesla. That would require Alice working another year; if she informs Bob that she's going to FIRE as planned and he can continue working to buy it, is he now left fending for himself? Will Bob grow resentful that Alice isn't helping him buy the Tesla? If Alice continues working, will she grow resentful of Bob's unnecessary purchase?
What if Alice wanted the Tesla and wants Bob to delay FIRE for a year because she doesn't quite make enough money after taxes? If Bob suggests that Alice just work for another 18 months, is Alice now left fending for herself? Who resents whom?
I don't see how forcing your spouse to pay for your Tesla after mutually agreeing to FIRE is comparable to what I said, so I don't have a response to this.
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I could never imagine having "her money/my money."
My wife and I are young (28/23) and nowhere near FI, but I typically work and she doesn't. I have the earning power of about 5-6x what she does. Because of this, I would much rather her do everything around the house while I'm at work, so 100% of my time not working is doing stuff we enjoy together. I haven't cooked, grocery shopped, cleaned, or done laundry in years. She does everything while I'm at work and it's awesome. She cooks perfectly balanced and measured meals, helps me get ready for work in the morning, etc. in turn, we can spend my time not working at the gym, movies, weekend trips, or whatever else needs to be done.
I would look at one person RE as similar to our set up. If one isn't going to work, they better step up to make the other ones life much easier.
We're putting off our FIRE time, but we're making our time while I work much more enjoyable. Especially when I'm able to pick up 20-30 hrs of overtime and not have to worry about doing chores around the house and all that other stuff when I get home.
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That's tough. I can't really give you any advice, but I don't understand why people WOULDN'T want to retire early? Takes all of your stresses, and just throws them away. I've seen it save failing marriages, as the couples started doing more things together, and not letting their stress from work cause fights.
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How do you even calculate your FI number if you don't include your spouse in that calculation? Even if my husband never wanted to stop working, I wouldn't think of either of us (as one financial unit) as being FI unless the family unit was FI, including any minor children if applicable.
This doesn't make any sense to me. I currently make almost 3x his salary. If he wanted to keep working after we reached FI for some reason (extra $, likes working, etc), that's fine, but I don't see how you unilaterally get to your "number" and leave your lower earning spouse to basically fend for themselves.
If one spouse drastically outspends the other, what is the "number" based on? If one spouse wants to buy a luxury car or upgrade the house, is that included in the FI "number"?
Alice and Bob are working towards FIRE. Alice makes 3x Bob's salary and has saved much of what is needed to retire as-is with an enjoyable lifestyle. They both have cars, laptops, and the funds to travel occasionally. They plan to FIRE next month but Bob has decided he wants a $70k Tesla. That would require Alice working another year; if she informs Bob that she's going to FIRE as planned and he can continue working to buy it, is he now left fending for himself? Will Bob grow resentful that Alice isn't helping him buy the Tesla? If Alice continues working, will she grow resentful of Bob's unnecessary purchase?
What if Alice wanted the Tesla and wants Bob to delay FIRE for a year because she doesn't quite make enough money after taxes? If Bob suggests that Alice just work for another 18 months, is Alice now left fending for herself? Who resents whom?
I don't see how forcing your spouse to pay for your Tesla after mutually agreeing to FIRE is comparable to what I said, so I don't have a response to this.
Forcing? Who is forcing?
Other than that, use your imagination. If this happened, what would you do? Whether it's a Tesla/kitchen update/workshop/jacuzzi or crappy boss/layoff/relocation, what happens when people or circumstances change?
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These threads always go down the same path, lol.
There are plenty of happily married couples with separate finances. Just like some of you can't imagine having that arrangement, others like myself, can't imagine pooling everything together.
Different strokes for different folks.
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I FIREd over a year before my husband. He loved it. Freaking loved it.
I got up and made him breakfast from scratch most mornings. I packed his lunch for him, including lots of snacks and home made food (which he enjoys).
I did 95% of the errands, meal prep, cooking and housework/yard work. He literally had his job to do, but came home every day to a cleaned house, a home cooked meal, and a happy and loving spouse. He was fine helping out more, but I told him one of the benefits of having a stay at home spouse was that he wouldn't have to do nearly as much.
And another benefit was that I could save us a ton of money by being a better shopper, cooking better food the majority of the time, doing a better job on tracking down deals and haggling over any work to be done, etc. So things she might have paid more money to provide conveniences for are no longer as necessary since you'll be taking over as a "convenience/comfort provider" - meaning she can save more of her money for herself.
It may sound like I was doing lots and lots of work, but in reality most everything took me under 2-3 hours a day, and could be spaced out as much as I wanted, so I was able to fit in lots of napping, loafing, piddling around with my computer or hobbies.
And the fact that I could get all the errands and chores done during the week meant we both had the weekends completely free for whatever the hell we felt like doing. Even the evening hours after he got home from work were better and more about quality time for the most part. So sure, you could lead separate lives, or you could maximize your available time together even more so with you able to get all the pesky day-to-day crap done when she's not there (and she doesn't have to do much of it at all).
This is exactly how I would handle it.
I guess it is because I was a SAHM for 8 years, but I really don't think my DH would have a problem if I decided to retire at any time because when I was at home, our lives just ran so much smoother. I would ask for a trial period to see how things went, with the condition that you could return to work if the resentment was building.
Just because you aren't employed doesn't mean that you won't be there to help each other.
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How do you even calculate your FI number if you don't include your spouse in that calculation? Even if my husband never wanted to stop working, I wouldn't think of either of us (as one financial unit) as being FI unless the family unit was FI, including any minor children if applicable.
This doesn't make any sense to me. I currently make almost 3x his salary. If he wanted to keep working after we reached FI for some reason (extra $, likes working, etc), that's fine, but I don't see how you unilaterally get to your "number" and leave your lower earning spouse to basically fend for themselves.
If one spouse drastically outspends the other, what is the "number" based on? If one spouse wants to buy a luxury car or upgrade the house, is that included in the FI "number"?
Alice and Bob are working towards FIRE. Alice makes 3x Bob's salary and has saved much of what is needed to retire as-is with an enjoyable lifestyle. They both have cars, laptops, and the funds to travel occasionally. They plan to FIRE next month but Bob has decided he wants a $70k Tesla. That would require Alice working another year; if she informs Bob that she's going to FIRE as planned and he can continue working to buy it, is he now left fending for himself? Will Bob grow resentful that Alice isn't helping him buy the Tesla? If Alice continues working, will she grow resentful of Bob's unnecessary purchase?
What if Alice wanted the Tesla and wants Bob to delay FIRE for a year because she doesn't quite make enough money after taxes? If Bob suggests that Alice just work for another 18 months, is Alice now left fending for herself? Who resents whom?
I don't see how forcing your spouse to pay for your Tesla after mutually agreeing to FIRE is comparable to what I said, so I don't have a response to this.
Forcing? Who is forcing?
Other than that, use your imagination. If this happened, what would you do? Whether it's a Tesla/kitchen update/workshop/jacuzzi or crappy boss/layoff/relocation, what happens when people or circumstances change?
I already said my initial comment that if one spouse wants to work longer for whatever reason (see above), that's fine. And I was referring to the OP's situation, not yours. If you are still not satisfied, please try consulting the many other posters who have expressed the same sentiment.
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Well, I'll actually chime in with this:
If money is an issue (you not brining in any, her being 100% responsible for her end), let's be realistic:
Once you go into "retirement", you can still do side projects for money, and maybe work a few hours a week if you wanted to. I already know damn well that when I retire, I'll still be doing some freelance programming work.
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If I were your wife I would also resent you in this situation and I think she is brave for speaking up and letting you know how she feels rather than not saying anything and letting it fester.
You are married and supposed to be a team you need to take her idea of retirement into account as it matters just as much as your desire to retire as early as possible.
She has wants, needs and desires as well that need to be met and once you understand them you can both decide on something that works for you as a whole.
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If I were your wife I would also resent you in this situation and I think she is brave for speaking up and letting you know how she feels rather than not saying anything and letting it fester.
You are married and supposed to be a team you need to take her idea of retirement into account as it matters just as much as your desire to retire as early as possible.
She has wants, needs and desires as well that need to be met and once you understand them you can both decide on something that works for you as a whole.
Well, I can see why she'd be JEALOUS (I would be as well). But not resentful. Why get mad at him for bettering himself?
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Why are you even married? I mean, if you got deathly ill with cancer and she goes on vacation with friends leaving you to figure out your own care ... would you be resentful or just jealous?
Does the term 'the two shall become one' mean nothing any more?
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Why are you even married? I mean, if you got deathly ill with cancer and she goes on vacation with friends leaving you to figure out your own care ... would you be resentful or just jealous?
Does the term 'the two shall become one' mean nothing any more?
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That's exaggerating a bit, don't you think? Why do you assume he wouldn't help her out? With your logic, since you can get cancer and have very expensive treatments at any point in your life, you should work until the day you die.
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Why are you even married? I mean, if you got deathly ill with cancer and she goes on vacation with friends leaving you to figure out your own care ... would you be resentful or just jealous?
Does the term 'the two shall become one' mean nothing any more?
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That's exaggerating a bit, don't you think? Why do you assume he wouldn't help her out? With your logic, since you can get cancer and have very expensive treatments at any point in your life, you should work until the day you die.
No. With my logic, you swim or sink together. If you can't both retire now, then wait till you can do it together. And if one gets ill, the other sacrifices their own pleasure to care for them...And so on.
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Why are you even married? I mean, if you got deathly ill with cancer and she goes on vacation with friends leaving you to figure out your own care ... would you be resentful or just jealous?
Does the term 'the two shall become one' mean nothing any more?
Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk
That's exaggerating a bit, don't you think? Why do you assume he wouldn't help her out? With your logic, since you can get cancer and have very expensive treatments at any point in your life, you should work until the day you die.
No. With my logic, you swim or sink together. If you can't both retire now, then wait till you can do it together. And if one gets ill, the other sacrifices their own pleasure to care for them...And so on.
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Why can't one retire at a time? I don't see the issue. If his wife gets ill, he can still help her. Actually, moreso, as he'll actually be able to care for her on a full-time basis.
I understand there are jealously issues, and I'd have them too, but a loving wife wouldn't force her husband to work and be miserable for longer just so she wouldn't feel jealous of him.
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I guess I see my wife and I as a team, we sat down and discussed what we feel we need as a couple to feel secure in retirement. We discussed what we want to do in retirement and when and how to make that happen as a team. Maybe that is why my wife is still on board with this crazy idea I have of retiring early and exploring the world she feels comfortable, secure and that her needs are being meet and she is excited to do this together.
We are a team
VS
Every man, woman and child for themselves
From my savings, I'm pretty close to FIRE for myself.
Maybe his wife does not feel that they will be secure and comfortable in their retirement? Maybe she feels that it is unfair that she has to work longer since she makes less and pays 50% of the expenses? Is she less important to the FIRE plan than her husband because she makes less?
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Well, I can see why she'd be JEALOUS (I would be as well). But not resentful. Why get mad at him for bettering himself?
Bettering himself? What about bettering them as a couple should that not be the goal when in a relationship?
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Why are you even married? I mean, if you got deathly ill with cancer and she goes on vacation with friends leaving you to figure out your own care ... would you be resentful or just jealous?
Does the term 'the two shall become one' mean nothing any more?
Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk
That's exaggerating a bit, don't you think? Why do you assume he wouldn't help her out? With your logic, since you can get cancer and have very expensive treatments at any point in your life, you should work until the day you die.
No. With my logic, you swim or sink together. If you can't both retire now, then wait till you can do it together. And if one gets ill, the other sacrifices their own pleasure to care for them...And so on.
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Same here. If my wife goes out to eat, I go out to eat with her. If she goes to the grocery store, I go with her. If she wants a haircut, you better believe that I'm getting a haircut too. Bathing, dressing, laundry, sleeping, eating, everything together at all times. That's what you do too, right? Or are you maybe taking the "two become one" a bit too literally?
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Well, I can see why she'd be JEALOUS (I would be as well). But not resentful. Why get mad at him for bettering himself?
Bettering himself? What about bettering them as a couple should that not be the goal when in a relationship?
How does that not better them as a couple? Lower stress, more time with kids if they have any, more time to get stuff done around the house, and probably a happier husband (which will lead to a happier wife). I just don't see the issue. Only positives should come from retiring early.
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I do not think a couple has to retire at the same time. Chances are that my wife will want to work part time or from time to time after I am retired as she loves what she does.
However If I can retire she would be able to retire if she wanted to as well. In that case she is working because she enjoys it and wants to and can quit whenever the spirit moves her.
The spouse in this thread HAS to work to meet HER fire number PLUS provide for the extra that she feels might be needed over what the poster thinks they/ he needs to retire. Essentially an additional burden is being put on her because they have not come to a mutual agreement on what they need to retire.
They are not on the same page when it comes to their future goals together.
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I do not think a couple has to retire at the same time. Chances are that my wife will want to work part time or from time to time after I am retired as she loves what she does.
However If I can retire she would be able to retire if she wanted to as well. In that case she is working because she enjoys it and wants to and can quit whenever the spirit moves her.
The spouse in this thread HAS to work to meet HER fire number PLUS provide for the extra that she feels might be needed over what the poster thinks they/ he needs to retire. Essentially an additional burden is being put on her because they have not come to a mutual agreement on what they need to retire.
They are not on the same page when it comes to their future goals together.
Sorry but your argument has no point, it could be completely flipped and be just as valid. Why is she hurting the marriage by not joining her husband in working towards FIRE and doing things together. Instead she is sowing discontent in their marriage by resisting taking on this task together.
You argument could be made from either side by accusing the other party of not doing their part in making sure they are working together with their spouse.
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Exactly
They are not on the same page so one side or the other is going to lose...
She has to work longer and feels it is not fair while he retires OR he has to work a little longer so they can both retire and feels it is not fair.
If they were in agreement of what was needed for spending / retirement / goals then it would be less likely that one would feel deprived.
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FI needs to be accomplished by both in a marriage. RE can then be determined by different terms. One may love their career, want to work part time, etc. Has to be a team effort IMO.
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Exactly
They are not on the same page so one side or the other is going to lose...
She has to work longer and feels it is not fair while he retires OR he has to work a little longer so they can both retire and feels it is not fair.
If they were in agreement of what was needed for spending / retirement / goals then it would be less likely that one would feel deprived.
This pretty much sums up the situation. We have different ideas about what constitute a reasonable level of FIRE expenses so one of us is going to wind up feeling deprived (me working longer or her spending less).
My attitude has been similar to what MsSindy said, that if she wants things she needs to be willing to work for them. But there's a difference between that and figuring out the appropriate amount to spend on necessities. The bottom line is that I think we need to have a discussion and reach some sort of compromise where we spend less than she's prefer and we delay FIRE longer than I'd prefer. It just seems like unless we can reach some agreement one of us is going to be unhappy.
BackyarBQ - "I guess you need to answer for yourself, that while you have met your personal goal... you've attached yourself to this human, who's happiness and success is part of you, and you two will have to compromise to satisfy and secure the othe." Thanks for saying that.
As many posters have suggested, I also need to find out more about whether she even wants to FIRE and what exactly her reservations are about it.
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When I first started discussing the idea with my wife she did not understand it. The concept made no sense to her as she loves her job and planned to work until "normal" retirement age and nothing else had crossed her mind.
She has never been on this site, we have watched the video of the summit, played with the calculators but what really made the difference is realizing that it is more about freedom / flexibility than a retirement date.
Freedom to volunteer for a engineers without borders project she has always discussed
Freedom to take chances developing and working with interesting technology
Freedom to take off for a 3 months, 6 months or however long to explore
It is a paradigm shift and as the person taking the lead she has put a bunch of faith in me probably more than I could if the roles were reversed.
I wish you the best in your conversation, listen, understand, empathize and I am sure you can work out something that you are both happy with.
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When I first started discussing the idea with my wife she did not understand it. The concept made no sense to her as she loves her job and planned to work until "normal" retirement age and nothing else had crossed her mind.
She has never been on this site, we have watched the video of the summit, played with the calculators but what really made the difference is realizing that it is more about freedom / flexibility than a retirement date.
Freedom to volunteer for a engineers without borders project she has always discussed
Freedom to take chances developing and working with interesting technology
Freedom to take off for a 3 months, 6 months or however long to explore
It is a paradigm shift and as the person taking the lead she has put a bunch of faith in me probably more than I could if the roles were reversed.
I wish you the best in your conversation, listen, understand, empathize and I am sure you can work out something that you are both happy with.
this ...
Its very outsdie the box of societal norms to Retire or become financially independent at such a young age. It takes a complete shift in thinking about how the world works, where money comes from, what money is used for, and what life really is about, and what is important to you.
When one person finds this blog and forum and starts to read and understand it takes some time for those societal norms to be broken down. Some are quicker to understand and see the value than others. But then we go to our spouses with what we feel is the hoy grail and dont realize or consider that they havent been reading the same thing we have for the last month, they may have a different set of feelings around the whole situation, they may take longer to really understand what its really about, how it really works, etc.
In my personal case b/c of many broken "promises" thru out her life my wife is an eternal skeptic at anything that sounds too good to be true. And me saying hey we can retire at 37 and keep living this bad ass life sounds way too good to be true. Even though she is an engineer and understands math she still looks at but this costs alot and that costs alot. yes but its been accounted for in our budget. the "how will i get paid" talk ... Then if you can get someone to understand all of that side and show them the safety of it and how their current spending is easily replaced. Now you have to deal with the emotional side and the "but what will other people think" since its not a societal norm to not be working or have one working person in your 30s and 40s, and what about her dad who paid for her to go to school and she just works for 15 years and calls it quits. lots of variables come into play in many different ways. Every year we get closer my wife comes around more and more. She's still a skeptic and thinks she'll work longer than our FI date. But its not about just retiring its about having the freedom to choose to do so if you want. B/c who knows how you'll feel in 5-10 years.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but OP, do you have an FIRE number for "your" expenses alone?
I mean, I've never even considered running an FIRE simulation based on my expenses alone. I consider my fiancee and my expenses to be joint, and I'm not going to retire until that joint FIRE number is met.
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When I first started discussing the idea with my wife she did not understand it. The concept made no sense to her as she loves her job and planned to work until "normal" retirement age and nothing else had crossed her mind.
She has never been on this site, we have watched the video of the summit, played with the calculators but what really made the difference is realizing that it is more about freedom / flexibility than a retirement date.
Freedom to volunteer for a engineers without borders project she has always discussed
Freedom to take chances developing and working with interesting technology
Freedom to take off for a 3 months, 6 months or however long to explore
It is a paradigm shift and as the person taking the lead she has put a bunch of faith in me probably more than I could if the roles were reversed.
I wish you the best in your conversation, listen, understand, empathize and I am sure you can work out something that you are both happy with.
this ...
Its very outsdie the box of societal norms to Retire or become financially independent at such a young age. It takes a complete shift in thinking about how the world works, where money comes from, what money is used for, and what life really is about, and what is important to you.
When one person finds this blog and forum and starts to read and understand it takes some time for those societal norms to be broken down. Some are quicker to understand and see the value than others. But then we go to our spouses with what we feel is the hoy grail and dont realize or consider that they havent been reading the same thing we have for the last month, they may have a different set of feelings around the whole situation, they may take longer to really understand what its really about, how it really works, etc.
In my personal case b/c of many broken "promises" thru out her life my wife is an eternal skeptic at anything that sounds too good to be true. And me saying hey we can retire at 37 and keep living this bad ass life sounds way too good to be true. Even though she is an engineer and understands math she still looks at but this costs alot and that costs alot. yes but its been accounted for in our budget. the "how will i get paid" talk ... Then if you can get someone to understand all of that side and show them the safety of it and how their current spending is easily replaced. Now you have to deal with the emotional side and the "but what will other people think" since its not a societal norm to not be working or have one working person in your 30s and 40s, and what about her dad who paid for her to go to school and she just works for 15 years and calls it quits. lots of variables come into play in many different ways. Every year we get closer my wife comes around more and more. She's still a skeptic and thinks she'll work longer than our FI date. But its not about just retiring its about having the freedom to choose to do so if you want. B/c who knows how you'll feel in 5-10 years.
Great post. I think you hit on a crucial point here in regards to "trust", "broken promises", etc. Many people were sold/told/manipulated/neglected/whatever in the past especially in regards to personal finance. Finances tend to be taught and marketed to us as an emotional thing instead of from a scientific data-driven approach. I see this issue with a TON of things with my wife (especially since she's not a numbers type of person - well was never taught to consider that). This of course is compounded by my own issues with emotions!
Trying to explain to someone that their feelings don't change how the world works when they have an ingrained and taught belief that everything is about feelings is difficult and ultimately takes a lot of treading carefully and usually lots of time. Not to say that feelings don't matter; they do! But, their relationship to finances and diving into how to heal some of those wounds and separating that relationship takes A LOT of work (and time). I think that's why FIRE is such a strange and downright foreign paradigm shift for many.
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I would want to put in a few more years to both FIRE if SO was on board and lived/spent like she was on board. But you said she deicded FIRE wasn't a priority for her.
If she thought the idea was interesting 10 years ago but declined to work towards it for 9.5 years I would be inclined to FIRE sooner than later if you're able. She made her choices and reaped the rewards in the intermediate years while you waited to reap the rewards at the end. Also there is no reason she couldn't pursue a higher income either previously or now, if she hasn't then it isn't that important to her to earn more to live grand in the moment or retire early. That should not prevent you from FIRE. Having yours/ours/mine accounts as you mentioned is helpful having different financial and retirement goals.
If she was on board with being frugal and saving but not to the same extent, or was on board for FIRE but just on a longer schedule, then I would be inclined to put in a few more years and FIRE together. My fears would be getting trapped in the OMY cycle or SO saying she's on board to FIRE but her actions showing otherwise resulting in the RE date perpetually pushed back or having to work again out of necessity. You know your SO, so you should know if there are valid concerns.
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I get that people are hyper focused on this separate number that the OP brought up.
But I have fully joint finances with my husband and if I told him that FIRE is cool and all, but I'm going to need him to go back to work so I could have a bigger house, I would expect him to tell me the equivalent of "Go F yourself."
Joint finances don't mean that I get to spend all of my money from my job and then guilt-trip my husband into working harder/longer so that I can also spend his money on luxury items like a home upgrade or parking spot.
If the OP's wife is legitimately incapable of saving because her income is too low to cover necessities AND save, then there's an argument to be made that no - he's not FI. He's not FI until all of the necessities are covered and his wife is able to save because she no longer has to put such a large proportion of her income toward keeping a roof over her head. But if the reason his wife doesn't want anyone to retire early is that she wants to spend all of their money on luxuries, then that's not fair to him. There's always a better apartment to spend more money on, and a better parking situation, and a better dinner, and a better everything.
I will humbly suggest that the OP saves enough that they can both quit their jobs and FIRE to a location other than NYC. Then his wife can have an enormous house for what they currently pay in New York, with a driveway and a garage and everything. I have a feeling that it will be easier than saving to buy a bigger apartment in NYC.
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If I were your wife I would also resent you in this situation and I think she is brave for speaking up and letting you know how she feels rather than not saying anything and letting it fester.
You are married and supposed to be a team you need to take her idea of retirement into account as it matters just as much as your desire to retire as early as possible.
She has wants, needs and desires as well that need to be met and once you understand them you can both decide on something that works for you as a whole.
Well, I can see why she'd be JEALOUS (I would be as well). But not resentful. Why get mad at him for bettering himself?
Because he is putting his wants above hers.
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If I were your wife I would also resent you in this situation and I think she is brave for speaking up and letting you know how she feels rather than not saying anything and letting it fester.
You are married and supposed to be a team you need to take her idea of retirement into account as it matters just as much as your desire to retire as early as possible.
She has wants, needs and desires as well that need to be met and once you understand them you can both decide on something that works for you as a whole.
Well, I can see why she'd be JEALOUS (I would be as well). But not resentful. Why get mad at him for bettering himself?
Because he is putting his wants above hers.
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You can just as easily argue she is putting her wants above his by forcing him to work longer than he wants to.
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I think people are conflating the "how we handle our finances" issue with the "can I FIRE?" issue, when in fact they are completely different.
1. Finances: plenty of happily married couples maintain completely separate finances. My mom and stepdad did for the entire 38 years of their marriage. The key to doing this successfully is having a fair split of the expenses -- it is not fair for one partner to make 90% of the money but expect the spouse to shoulder 50% of the bills. This approach also has to be flexible when unusual events happen; e.g., my stepdad had Parkinson's, and if he hadn't died unexpectedly would have run up massive long-term-care bills; at that point, my mom would not have said, "gee, sorry, shoulda bought LTC insurance, you're on your own" -- she loved him and would absolutely have spent "her" money to take care of him. (and it wouldn't have worked anyway, since the government saw her savings as his and vice-versa)
2. FIRE: many, many couples have fundamental disagreements on the question of when/if to FIRE, regardless of how they handle their finances. DH and I have pooled our money since we married, but that hasn't led to unity on this particular point -- I think we could FIRE right now, whereas he wants $5M (yes, you read that right, it really is a 5. Which is down from 10. So, you know, progress). The key to a happy marriage is figuring out what your *partner* wants and valuing that as highly as you value what *you* want. So I have agreed to work longer -- it's not like my job is horrible -- and he has agreed to push 62 down to 58, and maybe earlier; he has also given me express permission to quit or go part-time whenever I want and to pursue my post-FIRE writing plans. And we keep talking, re-evaluating, and talking some more -- frequently over a bottle of wine. Because, really, what is better than sitting on the deck with a glass of wine and talking about your hopes and dreams for the future with the person you love?
And, really, that is the key to all of this: wanting your partner to be happy just as much as you want that for yourself. So if you split finances, you want to make sure you and your partner pay fair shares; if you combine finances, you want to make sure you both agree on a reasonable savings target. If you want to FIRE and your partner doesn't, or vice-versa, that is all fine, as long as you and your partner make those decisions together and with each other's best interests in mind.
Tl;dr: It's not about the actual decision -- it's about how you make the actual decision.
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I do not think a couple has to retire at the same time. Chances are that my wife will want to work part time or from time to time after I am retired as she loves what she does.
However If I can retire she would be able to retire if she wanted to as well. In that case she is working because she enjoys it and wants to and can quit whenever the spirit moves her.
The spouse in this thread HAS to work to meet HER fire number PLUS provide for the extra that she feels might be needed over what the poster thinks they/ he needs to retire. Essentially an additional burden is being put on her because they have not come to a mutual agreement on what they need to retire.
They are not on the same page when it comes to their future goals together.
I am sorry even though I see your point I dont agree.
So lets assume a "Normal" couple that work all their life until retirement age.
The husband is 6-7 years older than the wife. Husband reachs 65 (or whatever is the retirement age) and gets into retirement life while the wife is around 57 years old and is required to work until 65 or something.
Should she say ("Hey you need to work more because I haven't reached my retirement age yet) ...
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If I were your wife I would also resent you in this situation and I think she is brave for speaking up and letting you know how she feels rather than not saying anything and letting it fester.
You are married and supposed to be a team you need to take her idea of retirement into account as it matters just as much as your desire to retire as early as possible.
She has wants, needs and desires as well that need to be met and once you understand them you can both decide on something that works for you as a whole.
Well, I can see why she'd be JEALOUS (I would be as well). But not resentful. Why get mad at him for bettering himself?
Because he is putting his wants above hers.
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You can just as easily argue she is putting her wants above his by forcing him to work longer than he wants to.
Yes that is true. But that was not the question asked. Both parties are suppose to put each other's wants as equal to their own. And if my husband thought his were more important, we'd have a problem. And we do have a similar situation, but with the genders reversed. I want to retire earlier than my husband and he wants more spending money. So we compromise. He gets less spending money than he wants but we save less than I want. That is part of being a couple.
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If I were your wife I would also resent you in this situation and I think she is brave for speaking up and letting you know how she feels rather than not saying anything and letting it fester.
You are married and supposed to be a team you need to take her idea of retirement into account as it matters just as much as your desire to retire as early as possible.
She has wants, needs and desires as well that need to be met and once you understand them you can both decide on something that works for you as a whole.
Well, I can see why she'd be JEALOUS (I would be as well). But not resentful. Why get mad at him for bettering himself?
Because he is putting his wants above hers.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
You can just as easily argue she is putting her wants above his by forcing him to work longer than he wants to.
Yes that is true. But that was not the question asked. Both parties are suppose to put each other's wants as equal to their own. And if my husband thought his were more important, we'd have a problem. And we do have a similar situation, but with the genders reversed. I want to retire earlier than my husband and he wants more spending money. So we compromise. He gets less spending money than he wants but we save less than I want. That is part of being a couple.
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I would agree in some way it would have to come from either side, but without further information it is harder to say what is and isn't fully reasonable. On top of that of course is it isn't only about what is reasonable, but also what ends up being a workable solution for both parties.
If they can agree on a middle ground as far as spending goes then both working till that point will be best, if not possibly getting to a baseline stash both can agree on before OP FIREs and their spouse working to build the stash until it allows for any additional spending they are looking for.
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I FIREd over a year before my husband. He loved it. Freaking loved it.
I got up and made him breakfast from scratch most mornings. I packed his lunch for him, including lots of snacks and home made food (which he enjoys).
I did 95% of the errands, meal prep, cooking and housework/yard work. He literally had his job to do, but came home every day to a cleaned house, a home cooked meal, and a happy and loving spouse. He was fine helping out more, but I told him one of the benefits of having a stay at home spouse was that he wouldn't have to do nearly as much.
And another benefit was that I could save us a ton of money by being a better shopper, cooking better food the majority of the time, doing a better job on tracking down deals and haggling over any work to be done, etc. So things she might have paid more money to provide conveniences for are no longer as necessary since you'll be taking over as a "convenience/comfort provider" - meaning she can save more of her money for herself.
It may sound like I was doing lots and lots of work, but in reality most everything took me under 2-3 hours a day, and could be spaced out as much as I wanted, so I was able to fit in lots of napping, loafing, piddling around with my computer or hobbies.
And the fact that I could get all the errands and chores done during the week meant we both had the weekends completely free for whatever the hell we felt like doing. Even the evening hours after he got home from work were better and more about quality time for the most part. So sure, you could lead separate lives, or you could maximize your available time together even more so with you able to get all the pesky day-to-day crap done when she's not there (and she doesn't have to do much of it at all).
If your spouse is dead set on you not being able to retire before her, then you may want to have a discussion about what exactly you will be doing while she's at work. If she thinks she'll still need to be responsible for a whole bunch of household chores while you do very little other than loaf/piddle with hobbies, then yes, that could be a big perception issue you need to deal with.
Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that you actually will want to take on all of that stuff in the interest of having the majority of your days free from working. It would really suck if you were wanting to quit work and pay a maid to clean your house, eat out or stop off at fast food to feed yourselves and rarely bothered to do things in general around the house (especially if you expected her to kick in on those costs) while pursuing your own agenda. I could see her point if this is more what might happen. But only you know what type of FIRE you're planning for yourself, and whether it is something that should be genuinely worrying your spouse.
There is the argument that you could work another few years to get to the shared goal that would enable your spouse to feel good about quitting. If it is a difference of a few years, and the place you're at isn't a hell on earth, it might be worth it. But I don't think you should be held hostage at a job just because your spouse can't deal with the idea of you wanting to stop working. So really, it means sitting down and talking all this stuff through until you come to a shared agreement/compromise that you both can live with.
This is what my husband is doing these days, plus a hell of a lot of home renovations and some side hustles. He cut back to a part-time job and a small business roughly eight years ago, with some years more profitable than others. We've had some on-again/off-again conversations about what we'd each like to do in the short and long-term. While he says he's willing to go back to a 40-hour office job if his small business doesn't take off this year, deep down I know he hates the idea. And all the work he does during the day-- shopping, errands, carpentry, yard work, cooking-- makes a tremendous difference in quality of life for both of us.
Currently, I'm in a full-time career that I used to love, dwindled to like, and is now a split between enjoyable and tolerable, depending on the day. I admit that I get jealous of my husband's unstructured days sometimes. And, I was raised in a family where the man was expected to be the primary breadwinner, and have spent years trying to mentally undo that conditioning. To cope with those times when I feel envy, I remind myself of how much he's done for us, including paying off the house and doing most of the repairs himself. He keeps me happy and well-fed with nutritious, home-cooked meals. We're not trying to keep up with the Joneses but feel rich most days. Together we're a great team, and it's important not to lose sight of that.
Plus, I keep reminding myself of this little tidbit: if I keep this job another seven years, we can probably FIRE with the help of a side gig or three. If I were to get laid off or decided to take a break from the office grind before then, I could swing at least a year on savings before one of us would have to pick up a full-time job again.
Best of luck on working out an agreeable compromise, OP!
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Marriage is about compromise so I would work to find a middle ground. People do not have to fire at the same time. Find what works for your situation.
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That's tough. I can't really give you any advice, but I don't understand why people WOULDN'T want to retire early? Takes all of your stresses, and just throws them away. I've seen it save failing marriages, as the couples started doing more things together, and not letting their stress from work cause fights.
I guess it depends on what you want to do after retirement - are you retiring "to" something, or just "away from" something? Not everybody's work is full of stress, for one thing.
But the idea of retiring in a studio apartment with my dh sounds pretty darned stressful, to me.
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I increasingly don't get these threads. If you truly love each other and truly want to stay together til death do you part, talk openly and regularly, empathize liberally, and compromise happily. Feel free to slowly jedi mindtrick your SO into embracing FIRE more and more, but don't resent their pace of doing so. If it's nothing but a struggle month after month, year after year, you have to question whether your values are too different for the marriage to continue. Not all of them are meant to. My first wasn't. My second (and unequivocally final) reinforces that assessment every day.
You guys do realize that talking about things like your SO "forcing" you to support "their" lifestyle is toxic, right? If those feelings are creeping in, counseling is my advice.
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Hey Overlord
Is her wanting to 'spend more' just about the apartment size ie. moving from a studio to a 1bdr?
Although I'm all for a no-frills FI, I can understand that she might not want to live in a studio forever, especially if you are both not working and home in FI.
Could you maybe think about moving to a lower cost of living area in FI since you won't need to be in New York City for work anymore? I'm guessing if you sell the studio in NYC you would be able to afford a bigger place elsewhere.
Also have you talked about not having/having children? Maybe she wants children and it wouldn't be very practical living in a studio.
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My wife ERed a few years ago, I moved jobs, she spent more time renovating the last house and didn't want to look hard. Move for work again and and we just decided the stress/time really wasn't worth what she cleared after taxes, especially since its a second income to the family.
Its been wonderful at home, she plays great defense with money, takes care of the yard and house, and I have minimal stress outside of the job. I do think she misses the social interaction and fulfillment esepcially since I'm not here.
The feelings/concerns you have are real, its up to you and your wife to determine how much it'll bother the each of you.
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But if the reason his wife doesn't want anyone to retire early is that she wants to spend all of their money on luxuries, then that's not fair to him. There's always a better apartment to spend more money on, and a better parking situation, and a better dinner, and a better everything.
This is pretty close to describing the problem. I should also emphasize that it's not that she has expensive tastes, but rather that she prefers much more convenience and comfort in her lifestyle than I do. So she'll be much more inclined to eat out for lunches during the work week, buy new clothing, not shop for a deal when buying something because it's too much of a headache. The biggest difference right now is our housing situation, where she really wants to move to a 1br. Earlier in this thread I estimated the cost of moving to a 1br in her preferred neighborhoods at a difference of an extra $12-$15000 per year over what we're currently paying. But even in less preferred neighborhoods it would still probably be an extra $7000 per year for housing.
Luckyvik - I agree that if we weren't living in NYC, moving to a 1br is a totally reasonable thing to want. I also fully acknowledge that I'm on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to not spending money. Not because it's a sacrifice for me; I just really have very few wants and am happy with less. For example, I like living in a studio with my wife. It means we see each other more, get to spend more time together rather than retreating to a separate room. So it's been hard to figure out how to balance her desire for more spending with my desire for FIRE.
Some have suggested moving out of NYC which is well taken but not really an option right now since we both work here. I'd be willing to leave the city for FIRE but would prefer to stay within 1-2 hours because of family and friends here.
Maybe the solution is to adopt a compromise version of what she wants while we are in the accumulation stage. So move to a 1br but not in her ideal neighborhood, and build a compromise amount into the monthly budget for conveniences that she wants, even if it takes our expenses 10k or 12k higher per year. And just accept that as what's necessary for her to be happy during this time. Then once we reach a FIRE number for our necessities, we can find a place with more space outside of NYC. And as other posters have suggested, if she prefers a higher level of convenience spending at that time, she can find part time or full time work.
Thanks again to everyone who's given me input and advice!
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
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The thing is that they're not REALLY separate. They're separate in name only. Why? Because if my hubby goes out and buys a truck with "his" money, and down the line, we want to invest together in a rental home, he'll have less money to invest in that rental home and I'll have to either wait longer to save up or cover a bigger portion than I would have if we had the truck money to throw at it.
Or let's say I'm a big spender and never save. And then all of a sudden the mortgage is due, and oops! I can't cover "my share". My husband is not going to kick me out and find a more responsible roommate; he will have to cover my share.
Our spending decisions will eventually affect each other, whether or not we admit it, whether or not our finances are "separate".
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
But I didn't answer your question. So what we do is talk and talk and talk about it until we have consensus.
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
Compromise, and reaching a mutual agreement. It's usually going to be somewhere in the middle of what we both want, but always something we both agree to. I have hard time understanding how you can live with someone if you can't compromise on things like home renovations and cars.
On your situation in general, you need a plan you both agree to that suits both of you. It doesn't mean you have to both retire or both work, but it needs to be a plan that takes both of you into account. If she plans to work longer than you, factor that extra income into the FI plans, but you can't only be planning for yourself in a marriage.
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talk to her. talk to her. talk to her.
also, ultimately you have to put your own oxygen mask first - you cant help someone if you are not helping yourself first. if you are miserable working, it is beyond "selfish" for emotional vampire to threaten "resentment". she is a grown up, makes choices, and decisions. don't live a life if misery in attempt to keep another person happy, never worth it.
having said all of the above, I don't understand his/her/ours part as for us it was always everything ours , didn't matter who worked and did not worked, what were the earnings ,etc. when I had corporate job with income 10x of hers, it is still ours, when she was mommy to our newborn children and had no income whatsoever, everything was ours, now I am semi-retired, it is still ours. what matters is understanding what each person wants and enabling that. for my wife , what was important was part time job (adult interaction, ability to use extensive education and training) for causes she believes in. she called it "hobby job". If she decides to stop completely , I will 100% support her. if she decides that is more happy going full time, I will support her as well. if I decide to find another opportunity (which I am likely to do as I cant do 'nothing'), she is fully supporting. it is us, not you and me. and never ever either one of us try to use emotional blackmail on each other. our marriage is friendship and partnership, and we both hope to follow our parents good example (who are celebrating their 50 year anniversary of marriage this year)..
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
We have separate finances but you need to talk about any of those decisions of that magnitude and you both should agree.
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I also fully acknowledge that I'm on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to not spending money. Not because it's a sacrifice for me; I just really have very few wants and am happy with less. For example, I like living in a studio with my wife. It means we see each other more, get to spend more time together rather than retreating to a separate room. So it's been hard to figure out how to balance her desire for more spending with my desire for FIRE.
Is your wife an introvert? If so, what you described as your fantastic current life could be a small version of hell to her. I love DH more than anything, but my God, if I had to live in a single room with him for the rest of my natural life, we would be divorced within a year. I am not a nice person when I don't have sufficient time by myself. It literally makes me shudder even to think of it. I am trying to think of enticements that would make "living in one room forever with DH" worth it to me -- Powerball? George Clooney? -- and, well, no. Can't think of a one. Maybe world peace. But, damn, y'all would seriously owe me.
The larger point is that you are doing what comes naturally to you, just as she is doing what comes naturally to her. For you, working longer to buy more living space and convenience is a sacrifice, just as for her, giving up more living space and convenience to work less is a sacrifice. You are on the MMM boards, so of course the natural inclination here is to confirm that you are "right" and she is a spoiled consumer sucka who values stuff more than people and freedom. Of course, to another audience, you'd be the crazy cheap miser who wants to deprive her of all of the things that make life worth living just so you can be a lazy bum and sit around doing nothing. ;-).
In the end, this comes down to the classic question: do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? If you'd prefer the latter, the place to start is by assuming that her needs and desires are just as worthy as yours, and figuring out between the two of you how much each of you can give to make sure the other has enough of what s/he needs. I think your posts show that you see that, and it sounds like you have some good ideas to open the conversation. So go talk!
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
Same way you do it when finances are joint -- you talk about it until you reach a compromise.
A spouse who drops $50k on something without the other spouse's agreement is a doink. Doesn't really matter if the check comes out of a solo or joint account.
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My husband left his job to enter FIRE before me, though I brought the formal FIRE concept into our marriage. We had, however, both lived according to what are now known as MMM principles for most of our adult lives, so FIRE was logical. But, living as if FIRE were in our future and actually making the leap when the time came were two very different things.
Paying off our home (surprise!) made it very difficult for us to continue working as we had been. There was, quite literally, no reason or any urgency for paid work anymore. Suddenly, the FIRE leap came a lot more easily, but still freaked us out a bit. So. The plan was my husband would FIRE first (he being the more miserable in his job of the two of us, with the super soul-killing commute) and I would follow in a year, maintaining health insurance for both of us in the meantime.
Well, that lasted one whole month. Newly FIRE husband wanted to do things like take road trips I wouldn't be able to go on with my limited vacation time, and do other fun things like play frisbee at the beach and hike. We completely work as a household and had a shared plan, and I was STILL envious of him. Envious enough to join him in FIRE ahead of schedule. We have no regrets about ANY of it. If anything were to happen to him, as it eventually will to one of us, we will be so, so happy to have had this incredible time together.
I am not a person to judge anyone's marriage or give unsolicited advice but, in general, adopting the concept of a household has been a transformative one for me, not just in regard to marriage but in regard to our entire lives. Wendell Berry has written beautifully on this subject, to name just one, and the Allan Savory concept of holistic management (which is for land, grazing, and soil health) applies very cleanly to life in general.
Changing my cognitive frame to "household" from "job/worker" was so necessary and helpful to FIRE. Until the possibility of FIRE was REALLY real, even I did not realize the extent to which I had been brainwashed by an industrial, job-centric mindset, i.e. "Work comes first, choices are always made around a job and not a life, work is something that happens totally apart from the home," etc. It's also a very individualistic way of being: We choose the best jobs for ourselves, usually, not others; work happens totally apart from our families; life is segregated into spheres; etc. If you think about household, and holistic household health FIRST, a lot of other things also change.
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
communication.
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
communication.
rinse and repeat
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
communication.
rinse and repeat
It does SEEM like people who separate for 'fun money' end up doing it, subconsciously or otherwise, to just avoid x,y,z fights.
It SEEMS like it guarantees higher spending.
If a spouse wants to spend $10,000 on some hobby and it fits in some arbitrary separation in your income is it suddenly consequence free? These things have a 100% impact on both people, even with the 'line in the sand'
If FIRE is the goal for both people, the fastest route is a razor focus by both people. Using some separate financial math serves to only 'keep the peace' as far as I can tell.
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
communication.
rinse and repeat
It does SEEM like people who separate for 'fun money' end up doing it, subconsciously or otherwise, to just avoid x,y,z fights.
It SEEMS like it guarantees higher spending.
If a spouse wants to spend $10,000 on some hobby and it fits in some arbitrary separation in your income is it suddenly consequence free? These things have a 100% impact on both people, even with the 'line in the sand'
If FIRE is the goal for both people, the fastest route is a razor focus by both people. Using some separate financial math serves to only 'keep the peace' as far as I can tell.
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Holy shit people! If my wife came to me a few months ago and said I want to take martial arts classes, here's the 2 places I like, this is how much it costs... and I said well you need a part time job or you have work longer to pay for that I'd fully expect her to punch me in the face.
Seems to me we're forgetting some basics...
FIRE isn't supposed to interrupt happiness... it's supposed to prioritize value and reduce waste.
AND It's not about deprivation.
- there's no point in FI, if it doesn't afford you the life you want.
- there's no point in the journey if you didn't enjoy it.
Therefore as long as both parties can state their desires and come to a compromise, there can be success. Plans are fluid, marriage is fluid, learning your spouse and sharing your life together is FLUID.
This is life, not a board game!
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When I retired I pushed DH to retire also because I didn't want to hear complaints about me lazing about all day.
If I,hadn't pushed him, I don't know if he would have retired or he might have cut down to part time.
We have craploads of things to do and he is busy most of the time.
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so let me get this correct,
she will resent you achieving FIRE because she doesn't like the idea of you not working while she is basically but wants you to work more to fund her lifestyle (bigger house car etc) that she could not afford on her own anyway?? lol
sounds like you need a new wife to me as she expects you to provide the meal ticket for the over indulgent lifestyle that she wants whilst not earning the money herself to afford it in the first place? wow
manipulation 101 i for one am so relieved my partner does not even think down this road - i even asked her this very question just and looked at me like i was an alien and said she would be proud to achieve this so early!! she would happily work part time as she says so 4 days out of 7 is all for us and nobody else - sounds like heaven to me.
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Question to those who don't understand why couples wouldn't automatically join their finances - how do you navigate differences when it comes to major spending decisions when one spouse wants FIRE and one doesn't? Such as a 50k home reno or if one spouse wanted to buy an expensive car or take up an expensive hobby?
That's easy? They don't navigate the differences since the difference in finances is already laid out. Each person does whatever the hell they want with their own money.
I don't understand why anyone would automatically join their finances. I wouldn't until years and years of knowing someone and feeling like we're on the same page (that certainly isn't an automatic process). So far I haven't met anyone that agrees 100% with my finances and I'm not going to work longer than I need to just to make up for all the spending and inefficiencies of the partner who isn't prudent enough with their money.
But I think the answer for OP is easy. If your finances are combined, yes I think you definitely need to be on the same page with your wants and needs financially and thus you should retire at about the same time. If your finances are separate, do whatever the hell you want. If she's working, it's not going to really matter where in the heck you are since she's stuck at work anyway.
Since it doesn't sound like you're on the same page with wants and needs financially (and it does sound like your finances are combined) - it seems to me like you either need to look into separating finances or seriously need to have a long talk and come to some sort of compromise.
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It's interesting to read how those who have separate finances can't imagine joining them and vice versa lol.
So I guess I should provide a little more detail. Years ago when she was interested in FIRE we joined the finances. Nonetheless I was doing 90% of the saving because 1) I earned more; and 2) she spent most of her disposable income on conveniences, gifts, clothes, etc.. Even so, I was happy to work together toward FIRE because we seemed in sync with our goals.
Then back in 2012 she started a cycle that left me pretty bewildered and frustrated. First, she quit her ~66k job at a startup partly because it was too stressful and partly because we were going to take a year off and travel. I would have liked her to have waited until I was ready to quit too but I was ok with her quitting because she really seemed miserable at the job. Four months went by with her out of work. Then she tried a couple of things to see if she could find her passion (unpaid internship, 2k trade school) which didn't work out. Finally she got another job but it only paid mid-30s.
About a year after working there we both quit and went traveling for a year. It was a tough experience because I was too extreme about our expenses because I was worried about income. From that experience she decided FIRE was too extreme and she wanted a lifestyle that could provide more income and a more "normal" lifestyle. So we came back.
When we came back I went back to work. She was concerned about working another job in the business world that wasn't a respected profession. So she said she wanted to go to school. It was really hard for me to on board with this because I felt very down about her not being interested in FIRE and now I'd be supporting her through school. Nonetheless, that's what we did because I wanted her to be happy doing something she thought she'd love. She went to school for a year and a half and now has a low paying contract position in her field (employed for about 9 months).
So two days ago I was talking to her and she said she was thinking of leaving the field and going back to work for her old boss from the 66k job (he now works for a different company). I was totally shocked. I had thought that she had gone back to school because she decided this was something she believed she truly wanted to do. That's why I was prepared to support her through school Now it seems she really was unsure about it when she went back to school and just decided to go because she didn't want to go back to working in business and hoped it would work out. It really shocked me that she'd let me support her through school when it wasn't something she was confident about in the first place.
I hear what everyone is saying about there being no you and me only us when it comes to finances. Nonetheless I'm very frustrated and discouraged about a situation where I feel I've been really focused on FIRE and doing everything I can to try and achieve that goal. By contrast, she hasn't been interested since 2013 and even when she was, she didn't do much saving or spent a lot of time trying to find herself while I supported her. Most of the interest and effort on working toward FIRE has been on me. And other than living with me in a studio - which granted is a big sacrifice for her - she hasn't really made many choices consistent with FIRE. So I'm a bit at a loss here since it's felt as though I've been making most of the effort to get there. It's really hard when one partner wants FI and the other partner just doesn't have that "razor focus" as someone stated, to get there too.
Is your wife an introvert? If so, what you described as your fantastic current life could be a small version of hell to her. I love DH more than anything, but my God, if I had to live in a single room with him for the rest of my natural life, we would be divorced within a year. I am not a nice person when I don't have sufficient time by myself. It literally makes me shudder even to think of it. I am trying to think of enticements that would make "living in one room forever with DH" worth it to me -- Powerball? George Clooney? -- and, well, no. Can't think of a one. Maybe world peace. But, damn, y'all would seriously owe me.
The larger point is that you are doing what comes naturally to you, just as she is doing what comes naturally to her. For you, working longer to buy more living space and convenience is a sacrifice, just as for her, giving up more living space and convenience to work less is a sacrifice. You are on the MMM boards, so of course the natural inclination here is to confirm that you are "right" and she is a spoiled consumer sucka who values stuff more than people and freedom. Of course, to another audience, you'd be the crazy cheap miser who wants to deprive her of all of the things that make life worth living just so you can be a lazy bum and sit around doing nothing. ;-).
In the end, this comes down to the classic question: do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? If you'd prefer the latter, the place to start is by assuming that her needs and desires are just as worthy as yours, and figuring out between the two of you how much each of you can give to make sure the other has enough of what s/he needs. I think your posts show that you see that, and it sounds like you have some good ideas to open the conversation. So go talk!
Great advice. She is an introvert and expressed this exact same concern that you brought up about why it's hard for her to live in a studio. So I have been causing her to sacrifice by staying here. We should move to a 1br because it is making her unhappy to stay here.
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Holy shit, Overlord, that is a hell of a backstory. This is way beyond you making more and her making less; seems to me you have bent over backwards to help her "find herself," and there's still no end in sight. I do *not* think in that scenario you need to keep on giving, giving, giving; she needs to be a stable, contributing partner, too. I think there is a lot of talking that needs to go on between you two. Maybe FIRE isn't the best way to persuade her or motivate her to basically grow up and hold down a damn job -- that seems more your dream than hers. But maybe you can talk about the pressure you feel being the majority/sole provider (in a HCOL area) while she is spending years figuring things out, how you want her to be happy, but you also need to know for yourself that there is an end in sight. And then maybe you guys can compromise on something that gets you a little of both; she agrees to save [ner aggressive savings target]; you agree that you will begin looking for a 1Br apartment when your net worth hits $X; she agrees to keep saving $Y after buying 1Br because you want to FIRE; etc.
I will think more about this -- I saw the post on my way to bed so haven't really thought this through, so sorry if it's sort of rambling and not crystal clear. I just wanted to make sure you knew that I do *not* think the answer to your current unhappiness is just to suck it up and buy your wife the 1Br -- that is probably a legitimate need on her part and so, yes, should be in the long-term plan, but that long-term plan (a) requires the full participation of both spouses, and (b) must also include your legitimate needs, like not working forever. And based on your story, that's not happening right now. So you have every right to be frustrated.
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It's interesting to read how those who have separate finances can't imagine joining them and vice versa lol.
I can't imagine joining them with someone that isn't on the same page as me as far as life goals. I can imagine a situation in which joining finances can be highly beneficial IF both parties are on the same page. Combining incomes and sharing expenses is obviously a super powerful tool when it comes to becoming FI. Sharing FI with the person you love makes being FI 100x better I'd imagine.
I'm sorry but your wife seems to be trying to pull a bit of reverse-psychology. If I were her I'd be more worried that you would resent HER vs her resenting you.
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It's interesting to read how those who have separate finances can't imagine joining them and vice versa lol.
I can't imagine joining them with someone that isn't on the same page as me as far as life goals. I can imagine a situation in which joining finances can be highly beneficial IF both parties are on the same page. Combining incomes and sharing expenses is obviously a super powerful tool when it comes to becoming FI. Sharing FI with the person you love makes being FI 100x better I'd imagine.
I'm sorry but your wife seems to be trying to pull a bit of reverse-psychology. If I were her I'd be more worried that you would resent HER vs her resenting you.
Regarding the bolded: I mean, this is my point. Personally, I wouldn't marry someone who doesn't share my life goals but YMMV. Either way, you guys need marriage counseling ASAP. I know what it's like to hear that (especially if your life goals have changed since you married), don't get me wrong, so please don't take offense. I was in your shoes a couple years ago with my ex. But in retrospect that was exactly what we needed, except by the time I was even receiving that advice our relationship was past saving.
I don't begrudge people wanting to keep finances separate but I maintain that if FIRE represents a core value, then both parties should be largely on board and/or completely willing to comprise on things like one spouse working much longer (and also the other working somewhat longer than preferred). I threw away maybe 4-5 years of my life trying to revive a stone-dead relationship because I hadn't realized just how important shared core values really were. I hope for your sake that this is not the case, but let me tell you that I wish someone had told me years ago that it's OK to let a marriage end.
Don't get me wrong, I remain pro-marriage and pro joined finances. I am remarried to a partner 100X better suited for me and we have wonderful children, and a life that is better than I could have hoped for, except for the financial setbacks suffered because I spent too long in my previous relationship.
Again, I am not advocating divorce. I fully believe it's important to try to work through problems within reason. But it does sound like there is a problem and it's something that needs to be carefully and empathetically explored, with good faith contributions and an open mind on both ends.
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I agree with Lagom. With that much of a back story, I think you guys are on a divergent path, you towards FIRE and she towards finding herself. They can coexist but needs a lot of communication between you both, which seems lacking. I'd suggest marital counseling too, just to make sure both of you are happy and aware of compromises needed. Also if your wife is unclear of what she wants in life, she might want to work on it throughout her life. In that case, your combined FIRE number might be larger than what you currently plan.
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About a year after working there we both quit and went traveling for a year. It was a tough experience because I was too extreme about our expenses because I was worried about income. From that experience she decided FIRE was too extreme and she wanted a lifestyle that could provide more income and a more "normal" lifestyle. So we came back.
The OP's wife's job hopping is an issue but no wonder she's not interested in FIRE given what OP shared about what happened when they tried a preview of it. Who would sign up for something where your partner freaks out if you spend two bucks and you're stuck in a living situation (2 people in a studio apartment) you really don't like?
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It sounds like you resent her. "She let me support her", cry me a river bro.
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you really need to be on the same page financially and have similar goals. if you dont have similar goals on the finances front i can see it leading to resentment both ways you have resentment towards her now. and if you just do your own thing and FIRE when you can support what you think your life should be and she has to continue working to support what she thinks her life should be you'll just keep diverging. maybe you and her should be evaluating your full set of life goals and plans and if they are that divergent maybe an amicable separation is in order.
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I also fully acknowledge that I'm on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to not spending money. Not because it's a sacrifice for me; I just really have very few wants and am happy with less. For example, I like living in a studio with my wife. It means we see each other more, get to spend more time together rather than retreating to a separate room. So it's been hard to figure out how to balance her desire for more spending with my desire for FIRE.
Is your wife an introvert? If so, what you described as your fantastic current life could be a small version of hell to her. I love DH more than anything, but my God, if I had to live in a single room with him for the rest of my natural life, we would be divorced within a year. I am not a nice person when I don't have sufficient time by myself. It literally makes me shudder even to think of it. I am trying to think of enticements that would make "living in one room forever with DH" worth it to me -- Powerball? George Clooney? -- and, well, no. Can't think of a one. Maybe world peace. But, damn, y'all would seriously owe me.
The larger point is that you are doing what comes naturally to you, just as she is doing what comes naturally to her. For you, working longer to buy more living space and convenience is a sacrifice, just as for her, giving up more living space and convenience to work less is a sacrifice. You are on the MMM boards, so of course the natural inclination here is to confirm that you are "right" and she is a spoiled consumer sucka who values stuff more than people and freedom. Of course, to another audience, you'd be the crazy cheap miser who wants to deprive her of all of the things that make life worth living just so you can be a lazy bum and sit around doing nothing. ;-).
In the end, this comes down to the classic question: do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? If you'd prefer the latter, the place to start is by assuming that her needs and desires are just as worthy as yours, and figuring out between the two of you how much each of you can give to make sure the other has enough of what s/he needs. I think your posts show that you see that, and it sounds like you have some good ideas to open the conversation. So go talk!
I think this is an excellent post. Maybe you two aren't that far away from a happy compromise. You just have to lay your cards on the table and figure out what is going to work.
Since you semi-FIRED once, you should use that experience to make improvements. Sounds like she doesn't want to worry about 5$ here or there (lunches, etc) while she is in fire. If you add a $500/month slush fund for her, what does that do to FIRE for both of you? Makes lists, and then make the math work. Maybe you fire in 3 years and she in 5. And I agree a LOT about the 1 bedroom apt. I realize NY is really expensive, but I also need my ME time and it is paramount to me being a happy, productive member of society. If she has reasonable needs (e.g. a little space, a little fun money) figure out how to make it work. It doesn't have to be black or white.
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I also fully acknowledge that I'm on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to not spending money. Not because it's a sacrifice for me; I just really have very few wants and am happy with less. For example, I like living in a studio with my wife. It means we see each other more, get to spend more time together rather than retreating to a separate room. So it's been hard to figure out how to balance her desire for more spending with my desire for FIRE.
Is your wife an introvert? If so, what you described as your fantastic current life could be a small version of hell to her. I love DH more than anything, but my God, if I had to live in a single room with him for the rest of my natural life, we would be divorced within a year. I am not a nice person when I don't have sufficient time by myself. It literally makes me shudder even to think of it. I am trying to think of enticements that would make "living in one room forever with DH" worth it to me -- Powerball? George Clooney? -- and, well, no. Can't think of a one. Maybe world peace. But, damn, y'all would seriously owe me.
The larger point is that you are doing what comes naturally to you, just as she is doing what comes naturally to her. For you, working longer to buy more living space and convenience is a sacrifice, just as for her, giving up more living space and convenience to work less is a sacrifice. You are on the MMM boards, so of course the natural inclination here is to confirm that you are "right" and she is a spoiled consumer sucka who values stuff more than people and freedom. Of course, to another audience, you'd be the crazy cheap miser who wants to deprive her of all of the things that make life worth living just so you can be a lazy bum and sit around doing nothing. ;-).
In the end, this comes down to the classic question: do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? If you'd prefer the latter, the place to start is by assuming that her needs and desires are just as worthy as yours, and figuring out between the two of you how much each of you can give to make sure the other has enough of what s/he needs. I think your posts show that you see that, and it sounds like you have some good ideas to open the conversation. So go talk!
I think this is an excellent post. Maybe you two aren't that far away from a happy compromise. You just have to lay your cards on the table and figure out what is going to work.
Since you semi-FIRED once, you should use that experience to make improvements. Sounds like she doesn't want to worry about 5$ here or there (lunches, etc) while she is in fire. If you add a $500/month slush fund for her, what does that do to FIRE for both of you? Makes lists, and then make the math work. Maybe you fire in 3 years and she in 5. And I agree a LOT about the 1 bedroom apt. I realize NY is really expensive, but I also need my ME time and it is paramount to me being a happy, productive member of society. If she has reasonable needs (e.g. a little space, a little fun money) figure out how to make it work. It doesn't have to be black or white.
These two posts pretty well capture my thoughts about the situation. OP, I understand your eagerness to FIRE, but at the same time, I don't think wanting a bedroom and a little frivolous spending in FIRE is asking too much. There's gotta be a compromise here somewhere...you can find it. :)
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But maybe you can talk about the pressure you feel being the majority/sole provider (in a HCOL area) while she is spending years figuring things out, how you want her to be happy, but you also need to know for yourself that there is an end in sight. And then maybe you guys can compromise on something that gets you a little of both; she agrees to save [ner aggressive savings target]; you agree that you will begin looking for a 1Br apartment when your net worth hits $X; she agrees to keep saving $Y after buying 1Br because you want to FIRE; etc.
This is totally not rambling and more great advice, thank you.
Honeybbq and Miss Piggy - thanks for the advice and positive encouragement.
The OP's wife's job hopping is an issue but no wonder she's not interested in FIRE given what OP shared about what happened when they tried a preview of it. Who would sign up for something where your partner freaks out if you spend two bucks and you're stuck in a living situation (2 people in a studio apartment) you really don't like?
No doubt I made bad decisions along the way in turning her away from FIRE.
It sounds like you resent her. "She let me support her", cry me a river bro.
I don't think I'm resentful, just frustrated. She understood FIRE was a major goal of mine. So I think she should have given more thought to whether she was going to want the degree before going back to school.
you really need to be on the same page financially and have similar goals. if you dont have similar goals on the finances front i can see it leading to resentment both ways you have resentment towards her now. and if you just do your own thing and FIRE when you can support what you think your life should be and she has to continue working to support what she thinks her life should be you'll just keep diverging. maybe you and her should be evaluating your full set of life goals and plans and if they are that divergent maybe an amicable separation is in order.
This is a great point and brings this thread back to where I started it, about her worried she will feel resentful. If I just do my own thing and FIRE on my own timetable that's exactly how she's going to feel. We just need to communicate and see where we can reach common ground that takes both of our goals into account.
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DTMFA MOD NOTE: Just because it is an acronym doesn't make it any less of a jerk comment and adds no actual value to the conversation.
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There is always more to the story :)
Fire / frugal living is a departure from the societal norm and you see this same conversation in other situations that stray from what society deems normal. For example with moving abroad, slow travel, living on a boat or RV they are all non typical lifestyles and in each community you will find this same conversation.
Here is one example. I would suggest reading this since it is not about frugal living but I am sure you see how similar they are and maybe seeing it from a non fire / frugal perspective will provide some clarity to your situation.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f92/caribbean-bound-in-june-but-wife-with-cold-feet-183364.html
IMO they typically revolve around one partner that is very passionate about (Insert thing here) and the other partner pulls back for various reasons that rarely have to do with (Insert thing here).
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I can't imagine joining them with someone that isn't on the same page as me as far as life goals.
This should read...
I can't imagine MARRYING someone that isn't on the same page as me as far as life goals.
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This site is the perfect example that life goals change, how many people on here have been going along thinking life was just as it is supposed to be and then for one reason or another they have an epiphany that things could be different and their goals for life change.
hell my goals have done a complete about face in the last year.
I can't imagine joining them with someone that isn't on the same page as me as far as life goals.
This should read...
I can't imagine MARRYING someone that isn't on the same page as me as far as life goals.
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This site is the perfect example that life goals change, how many people on here have been going along thinking life was just as it is supposed to be and then for one reason or another they have an epiphany that things could be different and their goals for life change.
hell my goals have done a complete about face in the last year.
I can't imagine joining them with someone that isn't on the same page as me as far as life goals.
This should read...
I can't imagine MARRYING someone that isn't on the same page as me as far as life goals.
this is a good point. Before i got married my dad always told me ... "There are two things you can guarantee in marriage, 1. your partner will change, 2. your partner wont change exactly how you want them to."
And yes this site is a great example when one spouse finds it first and getting the other onboard. b/c you likely were on the same page. Before finding this my wife and i thought we needed 5MM and our plan was retire by 50. after finding this site i realized we were way off. and we could retire by 37. this is a hard pill to swallow if not presented properly.
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DTMFA MOD NOTE: Just because it is an acronym doesn't make it any less of a jerk comment and adds no actual value to the conversation.
Fair enough, to finely tip toe on the subject then:
Original Poster it appears you are at loggerheads with your wife. You may want to truly consider why you are together and what your common goals are. It's nice to be in love but if the goals are not shared the relationship may be doomed. After this careful self reflection you may want to revisit the acronym above. I hope that was PC enough. I've been there and things could have ended better or communication could have been better but the end of the relationship was the best course for both involved. This may be another situation where the relationship has run its course. Don't stick it out for years then raise kids in a tense and painful marriage. Good luck.
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After reading this I'm more supportive of your wife. You sound bitter about your wife quitting a job making $66k. That's not that much money in New York City. So she was pursuing different ideas and hasn't found something yet. She went back to school and you paid for it - do you want a cookie? You are married! And she even agreed to travel for a year with you to try out a new lifestyle - good on her for telling you it wasn't her thing, instead of sitting in miserable silence. Traveling isn't my cup of tea either - introverts crave their relaxing times at home sitting and drinking something and reading a book. It's a bit harder to do that in a studio apartment with someone staring at you the whole time. Finally, her trying to find herself will eventually lead her to a well paying job doing something she loves. Maybe that is what she wants, ultimately.
Thanks for the thoughts. I do question sometimes whether I'm being silly about this since as you point out, we're married. But doesn't wanting your spouse to be happy work both ways? Yes, I would love for her to find a well paying job doing something she loves. But I feel like she's spent a lot of time trying to find herself, while also pushing us to spend more. This has put a lot of pressure on working toward FIRE, which is something she knows is something that will make me happy. And after all this searching, she is willing to go back to the business world (which is why she started searching in the first place) so it seems like she's back at square one. If she took that job I'd be worried that six months from now she'd be dissatisfied and restful again.
Also while it's great to have a well paying job you love, I think that most of us never find that. Usually it's a high paying job doing something you are ok with or dislike, or a lower paying job you love. Any in any event, no job is perfect; there's stress and annoyances everywhere. We did talk about it some more and it seems like she's going to try and make it in her field by looking for another job in that area.
Traveling for a year was a mutual decision. She was even convincing me to quit sooner because she wanted to go. She only started disliking it once we were doing it. Also, 66k may not sound like a lot for NYC but most of the reason NYC is expensive is housing. We have found a relatively affordable housing situation which is how we've been able to live here and save on two modest salaries.
"This site is the perfect example that life goals change, how many people on here have been going along thinking life was just as it is supposed to be and then for one reason or another they have an epiphany that things could be different and their goals for life change." Great point, thanks for noting this.
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Thanks for the thoughts. I do question sometimes whether I'm being silly about this since as you point out, we're married. But doesn't wanting your spouse to be happy work both ways? Yes, I would love for her to find a well paying job doing something she loves. But I feel like she's spent a lot of time trying to find herself, while also pushing us to spend more. This has put a lot of pressure on working toward FIRE, which is something she knows is something that will make me happy. And after all this searching, she is willing to go back to the business world (which is why she started searching in the first place) so it seems like she's back at square one. If she took that job I'd be worried that six months from now she'd be dissatisfied and restful again.
Also while it's great to have a well paying job you love, I think that most of us never find that. Usually it's a high paying job doing something you are ok with or dislike, or a lower paying job you love. Any in any event, no job is perfect; there's stress and annoyances everywhere. We did talk about it some more and it seems like she's going to try and make it in her field by looking for another job in that area.
Traveling for a year was a mutual decision. She was even convincing me to quit sooner because she wanted to go. She only started disliking it once we were doing it. Also, 66k may not sound like a lot for NYC but most of the reason NYC is expensive is housing. We have found a relatively affordable housing situation which is how we've been able to live here and save on two modest salaries.
Mr. Overlord, please allow me to contribute my two cents.
Let me see if the viewpoint I've taken is accurate:
Very often, you think about early retirement. You think about it often enough that it regularly affects decisions that you make regarding your immediate future, as well as long term. You are naturally austere, and don't mind minimalism and you've paired your lifestyle down to match. You earn sufficient income, and you're happy with the path that your current lifestyle is following. You are goal oriented, and have found a comfortable trajectory for yourself, so it's easy to stay on the bandwagon. However, you're clearly quite anxious about the lifestyle that your wife prefers, and you've yet to come to terms with it.
Lets consider the viewpoint that I've taken for your wife:
She's not often thinking about early retirement. In fact, though she knows you focus on it and that it's important to you, it simply isn't nearly as important for her. She can understand the benefits of it that you express to her, but the direct "enjoyment" of it escapes her. Simply put, it's not a priority for her. Thus, she doesn't think of it. It's not entering the equation when she's completing her decision making process.
Furthermore, she's not settled into her "path". She does not have fulfilling employment, with a safe wage. She also does not have an "end goal" such as early retirement represents for you. Therefore, her actions are likely based on what she thinks is important at the time, and may not consider the implications further down the line. Currently she is capitulating, and living in a studio. She may find rationalization for some of her decisions based solely on that fact. Their may be other things that induce this same effect as well.
She is in a supportive relationship. She very likely believes that she is also supporting you in a manner of ways that seem completely reasonable to her as a trade, but at the same time may be completely undervalued by you. You don't feel the same support from her, because your end goal is different than hers. Whereas she may feel similarly because of her different motives.
An average person without a Definite Chief Aim, will not be "happy" in their current situation unless it is extraordinary. They will find restlessness and resentfulness, and it will motivate them to alter their course. You have a definite chief aim, and it represents itself as FIRE. What is hers? How would she go about it?
You, my good sir, have some communicating to do.
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If you aren't careful you may end up dropping $100K just so she can find herself and she may never will. Being married allows her to do this because she can rely on your income and go screw around with no consequence. If she was single and on her own this wouldn't fly at all. I think your concerns are all valid. I wouldn't tolerate this from a spouse.
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Interesting update on all the career changes, OP. It sounds like your wife can't get a good (or at least satisfying) place in the working world, it sounds like she doesn't really like working. So I'm a little surprised she's not more on board with FIRE, except that she wants a bigger place and more spending money. Do you think if you approached it from this viewpoint (you don't need to try to find a career path anymore!) that she could be more attracted to FIRE? If you worked a few years longer for both of you, no strings attached for her, allowing a 1 bedroom and a "buy whatever" budget for your wife to feel unpinched, would that possibly make both of you happy in the long term? Or would you forever feel like "I had to work 5 more years so she could buy that Starbucks today" and be the resentful one. I feel for both of you, OP, you both have valid points and feelings and this is a tough one to figure out a good compromise.
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My wife dropped out of college and her low wage employment at 18 when we decided to have kids. A very tough pregnancy made it impossible to continue with either.
She never went back, and spent ten years being an awesome mother of three. Now at 28, she's finally back in school. She might, at some point, graduate and start collecting a paycheck. But if not, who cares? We live simply. A couple could FIRE pretty darn quick here with a salary of 66k/yr.
I can't put a dollar amount on how much my wife and kids have improved my life. If I have to work til I'm 67 like my Pa, I'd gladly do it for them. Luckily DW wasn't born and raised in Hollywood like Mother and doesn't require a palace... so we'll be FIRE in a hurry, having never come close to 6 figures per year. I don't make much more than your wife did at her peak, and spent most of my career making far less.
If you've been making triple that and saving most of it, you probably already have enough money to live happily ever after if you're willing to leave NY.