Author Topic: Mustachianism impact on relationship  (Read 10014 times)

Filliteracy

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Mustachianism impact on relationship
« on: May 25, 2016, 11:02:32 AM »
Am I the only who feels the "50 steps to turn your SO to MMM" etc are not very useful/fall short of actually working? Granted, things are good - we have no debt other than our mortgage, no kids, two jobs (75K for me and 55K for her) things are good at a macro level. But I've been completely unable to convince her that I want to save money to stop working in my 30s. My job pays well, but as a "manager" with contempt for the concept of management, its taking a toll on my idea of a successful/fulfilling life. At least since discovering FI/RE, I now know it could only be another decade or so, but even that seems an insane amount of time to spend a majority of my time on.

Every attempt at trying to show her MMM has been met with scorn. We live about 7km from our workplace. I've walked and biked the distance a few times, it's quite manageable. I barely drive my car anymore, and every attempt I try and convince her to combine trips together and minimize it's use she gets annoyed. Whenever we talk about cars and I say I'd want a used hatchback next (currently in an Honda civic 2009), I'm met with "we would need an SUV since a stroller and X and Y would be hard to fit". I invest my money in index funds (MER of .1-.7%), while she chooses to give her savings to an advisor picking mutual funds with a whooping 3% MER. We've talked about that last one at least half a dozen times, I literally don't even know what to say anymore since this is simple compound interest. I've let it go because at least for now, the sums invested with him are relatively small (5000$).

When we talk, things often go off the rails. But when she says things like: "I can't take criticism but I can take constructive criticism" I'm frustrated at the lack of logic. I can't say anything without being quoted and it applied to an entirely different context. We've fought quite a bit on the costs of our upcoming wedding... We are going to be spending almost 18K, when I feel that anything more than 50$ is wasteful spending (at least each family is contributing 5000$ to offset the costs a bit). I love her, but the less we are able to see eye to eye about something so fundamental as aligning our spending priorities and communicating effectively the more I can feel I'm about to make a mistake.  Which likely feeds back into how I behave/act etc. How effed am I, and what are your best suggestions

neo von retorch

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2016, 11:07:20 AM »
Yikes. You've got to work on your communication skills.

My wife initially wanted a Tiffany engagement ring and a pretty ballroom wedding. But we talked about what each item meant to us, what was important, what our goals were, and how we could achieve them.

It's not "You want X but I want Y!" and it's certainly not "You're not allowed to have A because I want B!" You have to care about what each other wants and work together towards how to achieve that without making huge sacrifices (and understanding when you're compromising in a healthy way, and what is or really isn't a sacrifice after all.)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 11:42:01 AM by neogodless »

onlykelsey

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2016, 11:09:33 AM »
It sounds like you're trying to force something on her she doesn't want.  I'm the mustachian and high-earner in my relationship, but the success I've had with my husband has come when he's understood WHY I'm excited about the prospect of saving and cutting costs.  I think he sees now that if I have a family emergency, I can drop 5K on travel without a problem, because I have it in savings or can cash flow it.   Especially now that I'm pregnant, I can point out "Hey, look, because I have $X saved, I can take Y days at home with the baby.  Otherwise, our kid would be in daycare as a 9-lb 6 week old." and he can see the connections.

You can't make her care about something, and you can't single-handedly force her to take admittedly "strange" steps like sharing cars.  If she understands that your goal, for example, is to be able to work 3 days a week once the kids are born so they get more family time, that might motivate her and help her understand why you're so gung ho.  Once she wants it, too, it should be easier to start talking about what concrete steps will get you there.

I doubt your wife is illogical, and thinking of her that way doesn't seem like a path to success.  I imagine she has a reason for liking the advisor (maybe it's guilt, maybe it's fear of making the wrong choice on her own, maybe it's having seen her parents make poor investment decisions, who knows) and the SUV (she doesn't want to be the odd mom out, or worries about accident statistics, or wants better visibility).  I doubt it's that she doesn't understand interest or car prices.   It sounds like your mismatch isn't in financial priorities, it's in communication.  maybe there's someone in your faith community or a therapist you can talk to, or a book you can read together.  You won't move forward towards any goals (FIRE or not) with the communication style you're describing here.

GuitarStv

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2016, 11:21:27 AM »
It sounds like you have fundamentally different core values.  Straighten this out before marriage.  It's much more expensive if you have to straighten it out afterwards.

pbkmaine

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2016, 11:23:58 AM »
It sounds like you have fundamentally different core values.  Straighten this out before marriage.  It's much more expensive if you have to straighten it out afterwards.

Agree. Do not get married until your goals are shared goals.

KisKis

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2016, 11:28:13 AM »
Not to be a downer, but I have ended one engagement before due to a similar difference in philosophy, though I was in your fiance's shoes at that point of my life.  The guy wasn't even mustachian extreme.  He was just more financially minded than I was at the time.  Arguments like the ones you describe have a way of poisoning a relationship.  I could never be with anyone who I felt looked down on me or felt like I was holding them back from their dream, regardless of whether that was the truth or my own emotional interpretation.     

My husband of ten years now is definitely on the extreme (and bordering on cheap) side of mustachianism, but I am totally onboard, and am more of a long-range planner than he is now.  (He is day-to-day thrifty, and I am the one with the spreadsheets and 10/20/50 year projections.)  We have never once argued about finances (or anything else really).  As suggested by the previous posters, the big difference with him is that he was able to sell me on sharing his dream of retiring early.  This probably happened either right before we got married or in the first six months following.  I am happy to work hard with him to make that a reality, because I feel like the reason why he wants to retire early is to spend more time with me and the kids (even though I know internally that the real reason is so he can go fishing more).  He is great with chores and home maintenance, and having him home would make my life easier.  (My retirement goal isn't until 48 because of my pension requirements.)  I don't think I had the same sense of security with my ex. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 11:33:29 AM by KisKis »

nottoolatetostart

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2016, 11:34:45 AM »
Agree with what onlykelsey said, What does she want?   What's important? Being a SAHM someday? Travel? Sitting in a hammock all day reading? Cooking? fitness? What is her passion? What she do without working?

 It took me 2+ years of convincing my husband of this ER route BUT since I handled the finances and taxes, he went along with maxing out 401k's, IRA's, HSA's, putting down extra on mortgage, etc as long as I didn't touch his travel and fun money.    So we kept our lifestyle low, I cook a lot and have really stepped up my culinary skills (he raves every night about my meals and has become anti-dining out), I bike as much as I can with our kids, and we still manage a 50% savings rate easily. I had to do a lot of PowerPoint presentations and Excel to show the way of how we would early retire. Every time he came back from a trip, I would mention slow travel and remind him of times when he was happiest in his life (no car, no belongings, simple, lots of time to read). He gradually is getting there and is now making plans for post FIRE.

He is ok with a certain spending level but I can't push him too much. I dream of cutting our cable, getting rid of our second car, cutting our travel down, etc.....but it is just not gonna happen anytime soon. The second car sold is my biggest shot and he has agreed we won't get another dog when our current one passes. I try to focus on the big picture and WHAT I CAN DO to funnel more towards paying off mortgage and investments. As the woman in the relationship, I guess a lot is in my control without nitpicking him to cut his favorite things.

One other thing...this may sound harsh.......are you sure you want to get married to her? I have been married for 6 years and while we see eye-to-eye on 97% of things, getting married is a HUGE deal. You don't realize what a big deal it is until it is done. The comments about the SUV and such kind of worry me about an escalation in lifestyle.


prognastat

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2016, 11:39:39 AM »
I would also say that communication is going to be a big one here and I would not rush in to marriage if you already have what is potentially a deal breaker on your hands if you can not come to a compromise you both agree on.

pbkmaine

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 12:12:17 PM »
It is also very troubling that she is demeaning your choices.

wenchsenior

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 12:52:12 PM »
It sounds like you have fundamentally different core values.  Straighten this out before marriage.  It's much more expensive if you have to straighten it out afterwards.

Agree. Do not get married until your goals are shared goals.

Agree. One problem is people are often attracted to contrasting qualities in potential mates (and potential friends). In the early days, the saver/planner/worrier finds the carefree/impulsive/spender's habits exciting; while the spender feels some stability and security is an attractive quality in the the saver. In the end though, we tend to like to cluster with those who share core values and goals, and therefore these traits can end up causing a large amount of marital discord.

People can be somewhat apart on traits like these, as long as they are willing to compromise and understand how their compromises affect their larger shared goals and values. THAT is the crucial part. Be sure you have similar visions for your future, and some understanding of how each of you will 'bend' as needed to reach it in a partnership. 

former player

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 01:45:51 PM »
So, you are unhappy at work, and when you describe how you and your fiancée behave together you use words like "scorn" and "annoyed" and "frustrated" and "fought".

If you read the forums much, it becomes very clear who is in a good relationship, who is in a relationship going through a sticky patch that has potential to turn around and who is in a bad relationship that sooner or later is going to implode.  (I'm not going to put names in categories.)  You need to think very carefully: is this your one true relationship for the rest of your life, and if so how are you and she going to change to make it work long-term?  And you need to figure this out before the wedding.

My take on your situation is that your relationship is clearly not working in relation to finances.  That may be you (too extreme too quickly?), it may be her (irresponsible spendthrift? internalised societal expectations?) or it may be the communication between the two of you.  From your post, I can't tell at the moment: it may be a combination.  You need to turn it around quickly.  Can you get some counselling?  If not, can you try a variant of what you say here:  "I love you.  I'm worried that we are not on the same financial wavelength at the moment.  Can you tell me how you see our finances, and how you see them when we are married?"

Also, your fiancée is clearly thinking about future kids, with her talk of a stroller.  I hope you are on the same page as her on the issue of kids, and have had an open discussion of how many, and when, and how they are to be looked after.

little_brown_dog

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2016, 07:22:26 PM »
Sorry you are in a tough spot. Having similar financial values is one of the key secrets to a successful relationship. You don't have to agree on every type of spending/savings plan, but you should agree on most things overall. I lucked out and found a man who is naturally frugal and mustachian to begin with, but also knows when to splurge on a little bit of luxury. My kind of man.

First some bright spots - she is saving for retirement despite the high fees from her adviser. Give credit where credit is due. Many young people do not save anything for retirement period.

Now the not-so-good news - It sounds like you two have communication issues when you talk about finances (she takes it all as unnecessary criticism, you view her as completely irrational and making bad decisions). As a woman, I can say that you need to first acknowledge what she is doing RIGHT before you slam into her with all the things she needs to change. Saying "those adviser fees are ridiculous you are wasting money!" is totally different than "I want to really think about our retirement plans together since we are getting married. You are already doing awesome putting X away, but are you comfortable with those fees? Can we look into something a bit lower so you make more?"
Second, you need to be upfront about your long term goals. If you want to FIRE, tell her now and be honest about what it will take to get there. Be prepared that she may have very different plans and may be seriously worried about whether your FIRE goal might hurt her dreams of having a home, children, etc.

intirb

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 09:08:35 PM »
Sounds like you two are engaged but not yet married.  In that case, premarital counseling would be a really solid investment for the both of you.  Sometimes it helps to have a third-party teach you how to communicate and a list of topics (kids, finances, future goals, etc) to hash out.  I think the MMM articles are great for a couple who already know how to communicate with each other respectfully and productively.  Work on those skills FIRST (you won't have a happy marriage without them!).

FIRE me

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 09:47:33 PM »

no kids,

our upcoming wedding


Don't get married. You two are not right for each other.

woopwoop

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 10:22:54 PM »
I can't say anything without being quoted and it applied to an entirely different context.
This is a huge red flag to me. Communication is key to any long term relationship, and dirty fighting is bad fighting. You need counseling stat if you're really considering marrying this woman. Check out the Happy Marriage resources thread for some suggestions on literature.
Quote
I love her, but the less we are able to see eye to eye about something so fundamental as aligning our spending priorities and communicating effectively the more I can feel I'm about to make a mistake. 
You know what needs to be done, so get this shit resolved before you spend any more time fighting over how much to spend on bouquets. I can't even imagine fighting over wedding details, but I guess it's somewhat common. I mean, it's supposed to be the happiest day of your life when you commit to each other and promise to share your lives together. If you can't be happy while planning the happiest day of your life, what kind of plans will you ever be able to make together without fighting?

fwiw, I would never have married a man who overspends to the point where we can't even talk about it rationally. My man never earned much to be able to save much, but he was naturally frugal and was very open to communicating whenever we had different perspectives on money. When shit hits the fan, you need someone who matches with you on long-term priorities or things will degenerate quickly. This is important - what happens if/when one of you gets laid off and she can't stop spending money on things you think are bullshit?

I suppose you could just get a good prenup and then split your finances, but that seems like pessimistic forecasting.

expatartist

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2016, 12:57:10 AM »
Have you done a financial 180 or have you always been this way - much more frugal than your fiancee?

I did a 180 a few years ago, and combined with poor communication over $ and other life choices, it eventually ran our struggling marriage into the ground. Last week, I discovered he had US$15,000 debt in collections for a credit card in his home country. He'd have racked up the debt before we met 12 years ago.

Agree with the others. Get counseling, learn how to communicate, or call the wedding off.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2016, 02:02:07 AM »
Good luck! Relationships can often be hard work. Even more so if your life goals depend upon the support of another independent human being. Keep listening and know that in the grand scheme of things 5K @ 3% and an $18K wedding are small potatoes to what two people who support each other can accomplish.

GuitarStv

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2016, 06:03:14 AM »
I can't even imagine fighting over wedding details, but I guess it's somewhat common. I mean, it's supposed to be the happiest day of your life when you commit to each other and promise to share your lives together.

A minor quibble . . . but the wedding absolutely should not be the happiest day of your life.  That implies that every day of married life will be worse than some big party you threw one time.  The happiest days of my life have all come after the wedding.

Mrs. S

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2016, 06:33:11 AM »
There is something to be said about what you project as important in your life. If your behavior shows that financial goals are more important than her she will resent everything to do with finances. It might feel that it is a big deal but believe me in the long run you will realize how irrelevant the issue was if you do really love her and want to spend your life together. I am not doubting your relationship just questioning what is more important to you. If my husband projects that something else is more important than me and our relationship I am never going to lift a finger in that direction.

One way to go around the problem and eventually solve it is to separate your finances and expenses. When we got married I was very adamant on keeping separate finances. My reasons were a tad bit different but we did not see eye to eye on how to spend money and I simply did not care about saving so much. result was we shared expenses and kept the remaining savings separate to do whatever we wanted with them. I shopped and my husband did not. Five years in we have become more like each other he has relaxed a bit in terms of money and I am now trying to become as mustachian as possible.

I had a hard time selling ER to him (few months) but no time selling extra savings. I figured out how much I will have to contribute every month and when I can achieve my FI. Simply told him this is what I plan on doing and he doesn't have to retire if he doesn't want to or even invest the money the way I say. It was frustrating believe me, when someone would not even look at the spreadsheets I made for different scenarios. But not forcing him to see my ways and simply asking him to check if my calculations and assumptions are correct slowly made the change possible.

You might want to check out mad fientist's post about something similar. Also accepting that people even those we love and hold closest can be and are different will help.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2016, 11:40:53 AM »
I'm not going to judge your relationship based on this post because I'm sure your fiance has tremendous qualities that attract you to her on a physical and emotional basis. And I don't see many people commenting on their own journey with their spouse to convince them of the magic of FIRE, so I'll bite. Sorry for the long post.

I moved in with my fiance about a year into the relationship. Her money skills seem pretty close to OP's fiance's skills: she was contributing 10% to her 401k, no credit card debt, no mortgage debt, no kids, had $15,000 in savings, was making about $60,000 per year, lived in a small and very affordable apartment, etc. The only criticisms I could make was that she had a pretty hefty car payment ($350/month), either could have saved more or paid more towards or her student loans, and was investing in some funds with high expense ratios.

Before being critical, though, I hit myself in the face with a frying pan. Seriously stop and think about it. My then-GF was probably in the 75th percentile when it comes to financial competence. She had a Masters degree, was a licensed professional, and had been living on her own and doing just fine for about five years before we met. It would have been insane to be overly critical when she was doing so many things right.

I instead opted to be very gradual about everything. I did tell her I wanted to retire early, but I knew it would take time for her to figure that out. So I opted to read books together (she loves to read). I just looked at my Amazon cart from 2014. Our books:
(1) "I Will Teach You To Be Rich" by Ramit Sethi;
(2) "Total Money Makeover" by Dave Ramsey;
(3) "Why Didn't They Teach Me This in School?: 99 Personal Money Management Principles to Live By" by Cary Siegel;
(4) "Coin: The Irreverent Yet Practical Guide to Money Management for Recent College Graduates" by Judy McNary.

Our book list in 2015 becomes a little more advanced:
(1) "Your Money or Your Life" by Vicki Robin;
(2) "Bogleheads Guide to Investing" by Taylor Larimore; and
(3) "Early Retirement Extreme: A Philosophical and Practical Guide to Financial Independence" by Jacob Lund Fisker

I only list these out because they quite remarkably illustrate our journey of understanding money together.  We've gone from just doing the basics right to really being smart about money. Since living with her (about 1.5 years now):

(1) She switched to an American Express SPG card with travel benefits;
(2) She moved her money market funds to Vanguard and invests solely in index funds;
(3) She inherited a decent sum of money and put every penny of it to her student loans;
(4) She upped her 401k contribution to 20% (about $12,500 per year);
(5) She opened a Roth IRA;
(6) We got our library cards and don't usually buy books anymore;
(7) Ditched her $40/month gym membership.

I'd still like to do more things. I'd like her to automate the bills. I want her to switch bank accounts from Chase to Schwab. I'd like her to max her 401k all the way to $18k and open an HSA. I'd like to cut cable and switch to Sling. I still think I have more to do to convince her of the math behind early retirement. But these will all take time.

Also of note: we too are planning a wedding. We went to the library together and got two books: one on wedding planning must-do's, and another on saving money for the wedding. That gave her HER OWN ideas about how to save for the wedding, which she is implementing. I expect it to cost maybe $12,000, which will be offset by the $10,000 we are getting from our families as well. It has made the planning process a lot less stressful.

Now, I know that's probably a boring and non-dramatic post, and I can certainly say that the library wasn't the magical answer to all our money issues (there have been many hours of money discussions...it took almost a year to get her to increase her 401k). But I think the biggest thing I have done thus far is not jump straight into the deep end. Starting with "I want to retire in my 30s, you need to switch A, B, C, and D, and stop doing E" is insane if your partner doesn't understand the difference between a traditional and roth IRA. I think you absolutely need to build the foundation of personal finance before getting into anything more nuanced, especially a goal as novel as FIRE.

I say that because it seems like you've immediately jumped to FIRE and skipped the basic steps. You're taking your own personal finance knowledge for granted. I'd bet your fiance has a decent head on her shoulders, and you're basically screaming "YOU'RE DOING IT ALL WRONG." That isn't going to fly because, naturally, she is going to feel attacked.

I'll also add: I bet you also didn't get into FIRE overnight. You probably looked at other personal finance blogs, read other personal finance books, etc. before finding MMM. But now you're expecting her to jump straight to MMM?

Sorry, but that's not fair to her. I think you need to look in the mirror and understand where she is coming from. Instead of criticizing her a half a dozen times about not understanding "simple" compound interest (again, you're taking your personal finance knowledge for granted), why not go to Barnes and Noble and buy a few books together? "Hey babe, since we are getting married soon, I think we need to work on our understanding of money. You want to grab a few books? I heard X, Y, and Z were good starter books for young couples." THEN LET HER FIGURE IT OUT.

Like you, she will see the light. She will be six chapters into a really good book from an author she respects, read about how fees impact her returns, and she will sprint to her computer to switch her funds. She will see how increasing contributions from 10% to 20% means she can retire 5 years earlier. A light will click, just like it presumably has for you.

All in all, this is just a long post with my anecdotal example that reiterates what others have said: this isn't about money, it's about communication. I'll disagree with others, though: you don't need to break up over this. Work on it. Your fiance presumably has a ton of great qualities. Think about why you got on your knee and asked her to marry you. Then work on your communication skills. Best of luck to you.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:59:43 AM by ReadySetMillionaire »

Retire-Canada

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2016, 11:56:21 AM »
How effed am I, and what are your best suggestions

Don't get married. The unhappiness and cost of dealing with this stuff now is order of magnitudes less than dealing with it in 10yrs.

Bee21

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2016, 06:20:20 PM »
People change. Attitudes change. You need love and respect and some common ground in order to have a successful marriage. You can't have a succesful marriage if you constantly argue about money, this has to be addressed before the wedding. It is also important to understand each other's goals. I live with a very non mustachian husband, who is slowly changing, because surprisingly he also wants to retire early. I heard him talking about FIRE and retiring at 50 and i almost fainted, because last year he called me irrational, unrealistic and delusional just by mentioning it. So it is totally possible to convert someone just by example. Like he was surprised to see the balance of my retirement funds, because even though i make 1/3 of what he makes i have almost as much as he does because i was contributing extra. Now he also wants to put in extra money.we paid off the house, even though 6 years ago he though it was impossible, cos everybody had a mortgage. he booked us in with a financial planner. To discuss investment options. Wow.he is putting in money in an online savings account. These things were unheard of at the beginning of our relationship. I was happy then that he had no debts apart from the mortgage  and was making enough to cover his 'needs'. He was happy that i was not such a spendthrift as his ex wife.

But you need to take the scorn and contempt out of the conversations. Having a rational plan backed up by numbers also helps. Think of dreams together and what it takes to achieve them. I used the term ' we can achieve x without compromising our current lifestyle' successfully several times in the past.

BrickByBrick

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2016, 06:51:17 PM »

I say that because it seems like you've immediately jumped to FIRE and skipped the basic steps. You're taking your own personal finance knowledge for granted. I'd bet your fiance has a decent head on her shoulders, and you're basically screaming "YOU'RE DOING IT ALL WRONG." That isn't going to fly because, naturally, she is going to feel attacked.

I'll also add: I bet you also didn't get into FIRE overnight. You probably looked at other personal finance blogs, read other personal finance books, etc. before finding MMM. But now you're expecting her to jump straight to MMM?

Sorry, but that's not fair to her. I think you need to look in the mirror and understand where she is coming from. Instead of criticizing her a half a dozen times about not understanding "simple" compound interest (again, you're taking your personal finance knowledge for granted), why not go to Barnes and Noble and buy a few books together? "Hey babe, since we are getting married soon, I think we need to work on our understanding of money. You want to grab a few books? I heard X, Y, and Z were good starter books for young couples." THEN LET HER FIGURE IT OUT.


+1

A month or so back I realized I was occasionally acting this way to my GF.  I immediately toned it down and introduced the "book club" method with personal finance topics, framing it as getting on the same page for our future...it has led to good results.

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2016, 11:12:30 PM »
you need to take the scorn and contempt out of the conversations. Having a rational plan backed up by numbers also helps. Think of dreams together and what it takes to achieve them. I used the term ' we can achieve x without compromising our current lifestyle' successfully several times in the past.

+1. I say this as someone who let it slip in, and am working on it. Scorn kills love. No amount of care in other ways can make up for a lack of respect.

Kiwi Mustache

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2016, 12:23:00 AM »
I learnt from past experience that when I ask strangers on the internet about relationship problems that it was best to go to a couples therapist. Went, we split up, now couldn't be happier. Found a partner now who we are on the same wavelength with these sorts of things and is going brilliantly.

Dicey

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2016, 01:04:06 AM »
Run.


shelivesthedream

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2016, 02:52:50 AM »
The crucial steps in "50 Steps..." are 7, 8, 9, 21, 23, 32, 44 and 46. Why? Because they are all about what YOU do, not what your spouse does.

I am the acknowledged "financial" one in my marriage, and my husband is happy to let me take care of rent and bills and savings as long as we have enough grocery money and fun money. My husband is very into some MMM things (no car) and not others (he loves eating out). I have never mentioned FIRE to him.

Instead, what I do is work on myself, model what I think are good choices, do all the work when I want to change something, and talk to him about things we want to do together.

For example: I bought a bike several years ago and started cycling to work. It was 6.5 miles each way and I worked up to it by cycling part way and then getting on public transport the rest of the way, the cycling further, etc, until I was doing the whole thing. I came home and said "I did three miles today! It was great!" and he was happy for me. I said "I cycled all the way to work today! Best thing ever!" I said "I love my bike! It's so quick and fun!" I did this for TWO YEARS until he first mentioned maybe wanting to buy a bike himself, just for short local trips. I never once said "You should buy a bike." I let him decide for himself. If he was still bikeless today, that would be fine. And I would still be saying "I loved my bike ride today!"

Another example: He loves eating out. It's not that he hates cooking, he's quite a good cook, he just likes the whole experience of going to a restaurant with friends (we almost never go just the two of us). So lately I have been quietly working on making more interesting meals at home (I'm always stuck for ideas, so now I have a Pinterest board I can flick through). I never mention not wanting to eat out, I just say "Oh, I was going to make this Algerian tahini flatbread tonight" and he'll say "Yes please!" and so we eat at home. It's work, both the thinking of ideas and doing the shopping and cooking, but if I want it I have to do the work. I also work at keeping the flat cleaner so we can have spontaneous company over more comfortably (so he doesn't say, "I invited X for dinner tonight, so I guess we'd better book a table somewhere." I can now say, "Why don't they come over? I was thinking of making a Provencal chicken stew anyway" and it's no extra cooking or cleaning.) I often suck at this, and we often have pasta and pesto for dinner because I can't deal with stuff, but it's getting better!

Another example: He was talking about how he doesn't have time to iron his shirts and wants to send them to the dry cleaners to be washed and pressed. Internally I went absolutely nuts because it's a CRAZY expense. Externally I quietly started ironing his shirts. I don't love doing it, but I can put a DVD on and just do an hour's worth, and my time ever becomes worth more than the money, we'll send them out. Often I do an hour's worth and there are some left and he says, "Leave the ironing board up, I'll do the rest."

He knows we save money. He doesn't know how much (maybe 25% - it varies) because he doesn't ask, but I'd tell him if he wanted. He knows that I want to buy a house one day, and that I want to take time off to raise children, and that I am self-employed so I need to save for my own retirement. He agrees with these goals. All I ask of him is that he doesn't get into debt - i.e. he only spends money we/he have/has in our current accounts.

Don't get married without talking about your financial goals, but don't beat up your future spouse for not wanting the same things that you do. Work on yourself first. (Also read about the Wheaton scale to understand how your future spouse might be perceiving you financially. You have to acclimatise gradually. Summary in the first post here, Jacob at ERE has also written about it: http://www.permies.com/t/3069/toxin-ectomy/Wheaton-Eco-Scale)

slappy

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2016, 05:50:40 AM »
The crucial steps in "50 Steps..." are 7, 8, 9, 21, 23, 32, 44 and 46. Why? Because they are all about what YOU do, not what your spouse does.

I am the acknowledged "financial" one in my marriage, and my husband is happy to let me take care of rent and bills and savings as long as we have enough grocery money and fun money. My husband is very into some MMM things (no car) and not others (he loves eating out). I have never mentioned FIRE to him.

Instead, what I do is work on myself, model what I think are good choices, do all the work when I want to change something, and talk to him about things we want to do together.

For example: I bought a bike several years ago and started cycling to work. It was 6.5 miles each way and I worked up to it by cycling part way and then getting on public transport the rest of the way, the cycling further, etc, until I was doing the whole thing. I came home and said "I did three miles today! It was great!" and he was happy for me. I said "I cycled all the way to work today! Best thing ever!" I said "I love my bike! It's so quick and fun!" I did this for TWO YEARS until he first mentioned maybe wanting to buy a bike himself, just for short local trips. I never once said "You should buy a bike." I let him decide for himself. If he was still bikeless today, that would be fine. And I would still be saying "I loved my bike ride today!"

Another example: He loves eating out. It's not that he hates cooking, he's quite a good cook, he just likes the whole experience of going to a restaurant with friends (we almost never go just the two of us). So lately I have been quietly working on making more interesting meals at home (I'm always stuck for ideas, so now I have a Pinterest board I can flick through). I never mention not wanting to eat out, I just say "Oh, I was going to make this Algerian tahini flatbread tonight" and he'll say "Yes please!" and so we eat at home. It's work, both the thinking of ideas and doing the shopping and cooking, but if I want it I have to do the work. I also work at keeping the flat cleaner so we can have spontaneous company over more comfortably (so he doesn't say, "I invited X for dinner tonight, so I guess we'd better book a table somewhere." I can now say, "Why don't they come over? I was thinking of making a Provencal chicken stew anyway" and it's no extra cooking or cleaning.) I often suck at this, and we often have pasta and pesto for dinner because I can't deal with stuff, but it's getting better!

Another example: He was talking about how he doesn't have time to iron his shirts and wants to send them to the dry cleaners to be washed and pressed. Internally I went absolutely nuts because it's a CRAZY expense. Externally I quietly started ironing his shirts. I don't love doing it, but I can put a DVD on and just do an hour's worth, and my time ever becomes worth more than the money, we'll send them out. Often I do an hour's worth and there are some left and he says, "Leave the ironing board up, I'll do the rest."

He knows we save money. He doesn't know how much (maybe 25% - it varies) because he doesn't ask, but I'd tell him if he wanted. He knows that I want to buy a house one day, and that I want to take time off to raise children, and that I am self-employed so I need to save for my own retirement. He agrees with these goals. All I ask of him is that he doesn't get into debt - i.e. he only spends money we/he have/has in our current accounts.

Don't get married without talking about your financial goals, but don't beat up your future spouse for not wanting the same things that you do. Work on yourself first. (Also read about the Wheaton scale to understand how your future spouse might be perceiving you financially. You have to acclimatise gradually. Summary in the first post here, Jacob at ERE has also written about it: http://www.permies.com/t/3069/toxin-ectomy/Wheaton-Eco-Scale)

This is almost exactly my relationship with my husband! It's a slow process, but the other day I heard him bragging to my brother in law that I'm setting us up for early retirement so he's not worried about anything. It's nice to know my efforts are appreciated! :)


ender

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2016, 05:55:44 AM »
Am I the only who feels the "50 steps to turn your SO to MMM" etc are not very useful/fall short of actually working? Granted, things are good - we have no debt other than our mortgage, no kids, two jobs (75K for me and 55K for her) things are good at a macro level. But I've been completely unable to convince her that I want to save money to stop working in my 30s. My job pays well, but as a "manager" with contempt for the concept of management, its taking a toll on my idea of a successful/fulfilling life. At least since discovering FI/RE, I now know it could only be another decade or so, but even that seems an insane amount of time to spend a majority of my time on.

Every attempt at trying to show her MMM has been met with scorn. We live about 7km from our workplace. I've walked and biked the distance a few times, it's quite manageable. I barely drive my car anymore, and every attempt I try and convince her to combine trips together and minimize it's use she gets annoyed. Whenever we talk about cars and I say I'd want a used hatchback next (currently in an Honda civic 2009), I'm met with "we would need an SUV since a stroller and X and Y would be hard to fit". I invest my money in index funds (MER of .1-.7%), while she chooses to give her savings to an advisor picking mutual funds with a whooping 3% MER. We've talked about that last one at least half a dozen times, I literally don't even know what to say anymore since this is simple compound interest. I've let it go because at least for now, the sums invested with him are relatively small (5000$).

When we talk, things often go off the rails. But when she says things like: "I can't take criticism but I can take constructive criticism" I'm frustrated at the lack of logic. I can't say anything without being quoted and it applied to an entirely different context. We've fought quite a bit on the costs of our upcoming wedding... We are going to be spending almost 18K, when I feel that anything more than 50$ is wasteful spending (at least each family is contributing 5000$ to offset the costs a bit). I love her, but the less we are able to see eye to eye about something so fundamental as aligning our spending priorities and communicating effectively the more I can feel I'm about to make a mistake.  Which likely feeds back into how I behave/act etc. How effed am I, and what are your best suggestions

Don't focus on the what - focus on the why.

Don't focus on her actions - focus on your actions.


DeltaBond

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2016, 06:30:57 AM »
It sounds like you have fundamentally different core values.  Straighten this out before marriage.  It's much more expensive if you have to straighten it out afterwards.

Agree. Do not get married until your goals are shared goals.

+1

VaCPA

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2016, 06:51:49 AM »
You guys just need to communicate better it sounds like. I don't agree with these 'call off the wedding' posts. There's nothing wrong with having fundamental differences as long as you talk about it and find a common ground. Pay attention to how you're talking to her too. I was the frugal/money conscious one in our relationship and money discussions used to cause a lot of friction for us. I believe part of it was I was a bit aggressive in how I talked to her about it, and she felt like I made her feel dumb. It was not my intention at all, I was just trying to get my point across but I didn't do it very well. Things are better now because we've both compromised a little. I let her spend money on a lot of stuff I would love to cut out of the budget but she also has made a big effort to adhere to our budget and save a lot.

Forget about trying to 'convert' her. Just find a common ground that you guys are both happy with. If it doesn't exist then you have problems but most couples can find it.

prognastat

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2016, 07:11:37 AM »
You guys just need to communicate better it sounds like. I don't agree with these 'call off the wedding' posts. There's nothing wrong with having fundamental differences as long as you talk about it and find a common ground. Pay attention to how you're talking to her too. I was the frugal/money conscious one in our relationship and money discussions used to cause a lot of friction for us. I believe part of it was I was a bit aggressive in how I talked to her about it, and she felt like I made her feel dumb. It was not my intention at all, I was just trying to get my point across but I didn't do it very well. Things are better now because we've both compromised a little. I let her spend money on a lot of stuff I would love to cut out of the budget but she also has made a big effort to adhere to our budget and save a lot.

Forget about trying to 'convert' her. Just find a common ground that you guys are both happy with. If it doesn't exist then you have problems but most couples can find it.

Thats the thing though, they shouldn't get married until they are able to find this common ground. Not every couple ends up being able to find the common ground and after getting married things can get a whole lot messier. If you find you have some core differences before getting married make sure you come to an agreement on them before getting married, not hopefully after.

VaCPA

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2016, 07:29:59 AM »
You guys just need to communicate better it sounds like. I don't agree with these 'call off the wedding' posts. There's nothing wrong with having fundamental differences as long as you talk about it and find a common ground. Pay attention to how you're talking to her too. I was the frugal/money conscious one in our relationship and money discussions used to cause a lot of friction for us. I believe part of it was I was a bit aggressive in how I talked to her about it, and she felt like I made her feel dumb. It was not my intention at all, I was just trying to get my point across but I didn't do it very well. Things are better now because we've both compromised a little. I let her spend money on a lot of stuff I would love to cut out of the budget but she also has made a big effort to adhere to our budget and save a lot.

Forget about trying to 'convert' her. Just find a common ground that you guys are both happy with. If it doesn't exist then you have problems but most couples can find it.

Thats the thing though, they shouldn't get married until they are able to find this common ground. Not every couple ends up being able to find the common ground and after getting married things can get a whole lot messier. If you find you have some core differences before getting married make sure you come to an agreement on them before getting married, not hopefully after.

Right but most of the posts saying call off the wedding didn't advice him to find a common ground first. Calling off a wedding is a pretty big deal. He may regret it if he listens to internet strangers and does that. Or maybe not, who knows. He didn't say how soon his upcoming wedding was(or maybe I missed it) but my advice is to really try to compromise first before they call it off. I'm assuming he proposed to her for a reason so there's something there worth trying to save. It sounds like so far he's just trying to 'convert' her, and she's standing her ground.

GuitarStv

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2016, 08:26:38 AM »
Getting married is a pretty big deal.  It's a much bigger deal than calling off a potential wedding.  Marriage is a decision to commit yourself to another person forever, to care for and grow with that person, and to part only upon death.  You stop becoming 'I' and start becoming 'WE'.  If you have the slightest qualms about what you're doing, or the person you're marrying, they need to be addressed well before a wedding.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2016, 01:22:31 PM »
The "call off the wedding" posts are ludicrous based on the limited information provided:

(1) OP and his fiance disagree on what car he is hypothetically getting next;
(2) She has an adviser and invests in high load funds;
(3) Small fights about upcoming wedding (who doesn't do that?).

Call off the wedding? Get the hell out of here.

OP: just realize you're in a journey together. You and your spouse aren't going to see eye to eye on every little thing. As my post illustrates, you might want to be less heavy handed and go with a more passive approach. If she's got a good head on her shoulders, saves money, does most things right, then (a) she's better than 75% of potential spouses out there, and (b) there's room for improvement.

Don't let a bunch of ignorant internet strangers let you forget about why you proposed to her in the first place.

Lski'stash

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2016, 02:31:44 PM »
The "call off the wedding" posts are ludicrous based on the limited information provided:

(1) OP and his fiance disagree on what car he is hypothetically getting next;
(2) She has an adviser and invests in high load funds;
(3) Small fights about upcoming wedding (who doesn't do that?).

Call off the wedding? Get the hell out of here.

OP: just realize you're in a journey together. You and your spouse aren't going to see eye to eye on every little thing. As my post illustrates, you might want to be less heavy handed and go with a more passive approach. If she's got a good head on her shoulders, saves money, does most things right, then (a) she's better than 75% of potential spouses out there, and (b) there's room for improvement.

Don't let a bunch of ignorant internet strangers let you forget about why you proposed to her in the first place.

+1 I like this post. I'm not sure any couple is going to see eye-to-eye on everything, and it doesn't sound like your SO is spending a whole bunch of money on stupid shit, so I'm sure it can be worked on long term. I found MMM a year ago, and when i initially told my husband about it, he thought I was nuts. Not even a year later, we're up $56,000 in net worth, have all the credit card debt gone, and are almost done with his student loans and my car loan (pre-MMM). He now says to his family and friends, "I just let my wife handle all that because she's crazy good at it somehow."

There's still a lot to work on. We want to open an IRA for him this summer and move his past 401K accounts into it, and he still kind of wants an adviser over Vanguard, even though the expense ratios are 2-3%. He also wants to buy a Jeep...for what reason, I'm not sure...  I still have some non-mustachian wants though, too (I spends LOTS on my hair!).  It's all a work in progress:)

Cassie

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2016, 03:37:10 PM »
I agree with all the posters that say your fiancee is doing many things right and you need to slow down and communicate.  Talk, compromise and things will be great. Even now after many years of marriage I will get excited and share a new idea and want my DH to immediately like it and he looks at me like I am crazy. Not all good ideas really are. People can and do change over time so talk, talk, talk and figure this out together.

Bello_Marinaio

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2016, 05:40:23 PM »
Are you REALLY sure you want to get married?  It sounds like trouble ahead to me.  You want freedom she wants a big SUV and to keep up with the jonses.  Personally I have always thought SUVs were really dumb. 

If you do walk down the aisle please be aware that you could be penalized with alimony (you make 40% more than her) or child support for decades ruining your dreams.  I almost forgot to mention the tens of thousands of dollars you could spend on a lawyer.  This isn't going to be popular or romantic, but you are about to take a 50/50 shot on flushing your dreams down the toilet of divorce court.

When you have your financials well in order there will be no shortage of women happy to be your partner without you putting your head into the marriage guillotine and handing her the rope to pull anytime she pleases.

tobitonic

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2016, 08:18:35 PM »
Yeah, I'd pretty much ignore the "call off the wedding" folks; the purpose of marriage isn't to be with someone who you agree with about everything, and if people didn't get married until they agreed about everything, people wouldn't ever get married. Just talk to each other more and focus on honoring and respecting each others' perspectives, and you'll be fine. And remember that, despite the siren song of "financial independence" and a number of socially inept internet strangers telling you to dump your fiancee because she likes SUVs, there's a whole lot more to life than not having to work for a living.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 08:28:53 PM by tobitonic »

elaine amj

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2016, 09:10:04 PM »
 I've been paying attention to the failed relationships around me - trying to figure out what makes them fail. The one common thread I have seen is a lack of respect. When one person stops respecting the other, the relationship starts unraveling.

I don't agree with an immediate breakup. But make sure that when u say "I do", that u mean it. That u will cherish her, love her, fight for her, and respect her. See the good instead of focusing on the bad (we all have negative aspects). Never ever lose sight of all the things that made u fall in love with her in the first place (U get bonus points if you count them out loud in front of her).

If u cannot do that (maybe your core values are so different that u cannot respect hers or maybe you find out she cannot give u the things u really want), call the wedding off.

As for the communication part, when she asks for constructive criticism, she wants u to tell her all the amazing things she's doing right. Then u might be able to drop in a suggestion or two (slowly and gently!) on how she can do it even better.

For many many years, my DH's biggest frustration has been that I wasn't a very good cook. I could do some things well but often messed up. He'd get so upset (he's an instinctive cook so couldn't understand why I found it so hard). Last fall, he started praising me lavishly when dinner was good. He also started thanking me for every little thing I did. My cooking magically improved by leaps and bounds. I LIKE cooking for my family now and I hated it before. And it sure is more pleasant to peeling piles of carrots when someone acknowledges it :) Puts a smile on all our faces.


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ahoy

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2016, 10:42:59 PM »
I can see how this would be frustrating for you.  However, If all of a sudden you talk to her about retiring in your 30's ( she probably has not heard much about this concept before ) she is probably thinking you are having some mental health issues.  I agree with everybody else saying you need to introduce this slowly.    But, if you are having big doubts you really need to make some big discussions fast.   

Big Boots Buddha

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2016, 01:49:10 AM »
Its a trap!

former player

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2016, 02:40:50 AM »
I think the communication issues can be worked on, and there have been some good suggestions.  As others have said, there is love here and it shouldn't be given up on too easily.

There are two worrying signs, though.  The first is that OP is already unhappy in his (better paid) job.  If he adds children and/or alimony, he could be trapped in that job he is unhappy in for 20 years.  The best option would of course be for OP to find a job he is happy in, preferably one which pays as well or better.  But once the kids have come and/or the alimony is due his chances of making a move, which may well involve less pay for either a period of time or permanently, go down drastically.  So I would suggest that he makes changes on the job front sooner rather than later.

The second worrying sign is OP's feelings about his fiancée's reactions - it does seem that she feels threatened by OP's approach on financial issues and reacts with (as perceived by OP) scorn, annoyance, denial and out-of-context rebuttals.  While this may well be down to OP's handling of the issue and his fiancée may be justified in reacting in the ways she does, OP would need to know that the same reactions could arise at any point in the marriage over any issue (kids are a major case in point).  So he needs to be willing to behave in a way which avoids or minimises those reactions and learn to deal with them when they do arise.  If he can't see himself doing that for the rest of his life, he should not get married.

Filliteracy

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2016, 09:59:05 AM »
All,

Especially ReadySetMillionaire, I really appreciate the quality and amount of advice that was given. And to anyone concerned I may make a life-changing decision based on one or a few internet comments (some of which look like they have been given 15 seconds of thought) like ending a 5+ year relationship, rest assured - this is just the data acquisition phase. Naturally, for brevity's sake, I focused only on the bad and the recent and gave a pessimistic glimpse into areas of conflict, not droning on on the list of positives. To answer some questions, I have always been frugal, but discovered MMM in December and that may of shifted me one or two levels on the Wheaton scale. I don't regret proposing 2 years ago and disagree with the idea that any amount of incertitude over anything warrants cancelling it/postponing it. Everything in life, every decision, involves some degree of risk. I postponed investing in the stockmarket from 2009-2014 because of "risk", sticking to GICs because that's what my parents did, because several decades ago, an investment they made but that they can't even describe or explain accurately went poorly. Communication is definitely something I need serious work on. Again, thank you all for spending the time reply, I've got work to do!


Retire-Canada

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2016, 10:06:19 AM »
I postponed investing in the stockmarket from 2009-2014 because of "risk", sticking to GICs because that's what my parents did, because several decades ago, an investment they made but that they can't even describe or explain accurately went poorly.

That's ^^^ a terrible example. That's not a risk issue that's irrational behaviour.

Getting married with major lifestyle incompatibilities because "there is risk in everything" is also irrational.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2016, 08:39:00 AM »
I postponed investing in the stockmarket from 2009-2014 because of "risk", sticking to GICs because that's what my parents did, because several decades ago, an investment they made but that they can't even describe or explain accurately went poorly.

That's ^^^ a terrible example. That's not a risk issue that's irrational behaviour.

Getting married with major lifestyle incompatibilities because "there is risk in everything" is also irrational.

LOL at "major lifestyle incompatibilities."  They disagree on a hypothetical future car, a few wedding expenses, and what funds she should invest in her 401k. That's nothing.

Big warning signs would be that she has loads of credit card debt and still comes home with new consumerist bullshit every week; she wants to move into a 3,000 square foot house when they can only put 5% down; she wants to send her kids to elite private school, etc. The BIG things.

What's been described is minor differences of opinion that just need worked on through better communication.

Slee_stack

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Re: Mustachianism impact on relationship
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2016, 10:10:12 AM »
My job pays well, but as a "manager" with contempt for the concept of management, its taking a toll on my idea of a successful/fulfilling life. At least since discovering FI/RE, I now know it could only be another decade or so, but even that seems an insane amount of time to spend a majority of my time on.
This is an aside comment on your view of 'management'.

While you are working on your personal relationship by changing how YOU approach things, do the same with your professional one: radically change your concept of management.

Management, to me, means finding and nourishing the strengths of others (your subs or peers) and being able to take pride when those folks succeed as a result.  Management is NOT simply delegating tasks, harassing people, disciplining, etc.  Management should be about expanding the scale (or scope) of your influence (presuming you have a good vision to begin with).

While I am in a fortunate situation currently (basically FI, working for a relatively unconventional company, having a job that allows me a good amount of freedom to work on what I want), much of my work satisfaction comes from finding others who are underutilized or 'untapped' and helping them do 'big' things.  One of my personal work goals is to someday have someone leapfrog me so to speak....basically develop my eventual boss.  I guess that might be weird to some, but to me it would mean I was very successful.

I highly recommend you read First, Break all the Rules.  It is incredibly simple reading, but it serves its purpose.  If you can't embrace the message therein, you probably will never be able to enjoy being a manager and should start planning an exit strategy.

Lastly, a title of 'Manager' need not pigeon hole you unless you allow it to.  It is simply ONE of the things I do each day.  I still get to do plenty of technical stuff and get my hands dirty so to speak. 

Good luck with improving both your personal and professional life!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 10:12:56 AM by Slee_stack »