Author Topic: taking parental leave dilemma  (Read 3530 times)

havregryn

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taking parental leave dilemma
« on: September 26, 2016, 04:54:47 AM »
First some important background info:

We don't really plan on retiring early, at least not before our 50s (now we are 32 and 36) . The reason for that is that we enjoy working and I'd rather be retired now when the kids are small...but since I come from a poor country and husband took a long time to figure life out we only started building the stash in the last 5 years. We probably could retire early in 5-10 years but by then I am not convinced we'd even prefer that to developing our careers. We live in countries with good work life balance (between Sweden and Luxembourg), there is simply nothing to escape. We just want a large stash of money to feel we are protected against anything that can come our way (we're both anxious and frugal by nature).

Anyway, we were doing quite good and then the evil comes in. We had to (and we really had to, literally none of the pros of renting or cons of buying apply here...as a tenant you're as vulnerable as it gets and you end up paying for a lot of repairs and shit to other people's properties and if you want to buy a place the state will shower you with money and benefits, all that after the bank gives you a mortgage with an interest rate of 1.5) buy a freakin place for 500 000€. There are no property taxes to speak of here (we were told we'd need to pay 17€ a year for this).
This is simply a society where renting is either to be highly temporary or state sponsored for the really poor, everything else ends up costly and emotionally draining. For a family with high income and small kids it just isn't worth it and voila, we're stuck with this monster.

Our income is, after tax, 6100€ for me and  cca 3900€ for husband if spread out over the year, he gets a 13th salary in December and bonuses in March and September, usually what comes to his account on a normal month is around 3400.
I also get an extra payment in June of 2700€.

We will be paying 2700€ for the mortgage as we took it for 15 years. We are borrowing 435 000, the rest is ours.
We will have about 120 000€ left in savings after we remove the 70 000 that are going towards the apartment.

This is not our only home (we already have a place in Stockholm but I don't mention i in income and expenses as it is a fairly self-contained budget with some little profit) so I don't see it entirely as a liability, because if something goes majorly wrong, we can easily sell this and move back home.

Our overall expenses are all over the place ever since we moved here but that is because there were simply too many extraordinary situations.
Now that the things are stabilizing I think our core costs with the mortgage should not exceed 4000€ without childcare.

So now the dilemma.
My fully paid maternity leave ends on 23rd of January when the little one will be 4.5 months old.
I am utterly uncomfortable putting him in daycare at that age after the first one had a stay at home parent until the age of 2 and then a nanny, while we are neither stretched with money nor lacking other options.

Both me and my husband are entitled to parental leave, I can get 12 months and husband 6 (and they are not mutually exclusive as the entitlement isn't shared, we work in different systems).
If I take it my income goes down to 2200€ a month. If he takes it, we can't really calculate as they are about to change it, but I think somewhere between 2500-2700.
So for me it is a far greater income loss. But for him it is a career loss. In my job nobody will really care if I use this (I'm a civil servant in the French tradition of the word + I'm a woman, so far less of a taboo for me to stay at home to care for kids), in his it might be seen as weird and influence his promotion prospects.

We can't really decide who should, if anyone, take this leave and for how long.

So scenario 1, I take leave.
Income 2200 + 3900 = 6100
Expenses if frugal I imagine can be around 4000, if they go over, we're doing it wrong. That includes the mortgage which is mainly principal payments as the interest rate is 1.5.
 Obviously we don't go cash flow negative but our savings rate becomes scarily low if there are any unforeseen expenses (and there probably will be, we will be moving into a new apartment).

Scenario 2, husband takes leave

Income 6100 + 2500.
Far more comfortable financially but husband probably unhappy.

Scenario 3, no one takes leave, we get a full time nanny

Income 10 000+, cost of nanny hard to estimate but I'd go with 2000-2500. So financially similar situation to husband taking leave but husband not unhappy and his career on track. Still, might be hard to find a suitable nanny.

Scenario 4, I take all of my accumulated vacation after my maternity (I think my boss would agree to that), stay home until late March with full pay, husband takes some vacation and we put both boys in daycare in April. The younger one will be 7 months then so maybe slightly easier to let him go.

I am somehow mostly pro scenario 4 but I don't know. I feel guilty for not going with scenario 1, it hardly sounds like a disaster.

Help?

Mrs. S

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Re: taking parental leave dilemma
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2016, 06:06:02 AM »
I would go for 4 myself especially if you are sure you would not require vacation days fro quite sometime. But more than that have you talked to your husband about it? Is it possible for him to work from home or maybe work part-time during the parental leave?
It might not be a great thing for him personally but if you function as a unit option 2 should be the one you choose. Maybe your husband will feel as guilty as you are for not staying back.
Purely in terms of FI and mathematical logic- there is no reason to work if you can achieve same income without adding the worry of how your children are faring. Add to that reduced commuting and other work related costs and you will probably come out further ahead.
Also as a principle never waste an opportunity to earn money while not working be it pension, dividends or paternal leave.

We don't have kids and I currently get 12 weeks off ( proposed to be extended to 26 weeks this year) and we plan to follow my maternity leave with his vacation days and then maybe mine if we can't get family to come over for a few weeks. If paternity leave was a thing here we would take it up no matter what.

Ricksun

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Re: taking parental leave dilemma
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 08:00:59 PM »
You have numerous options for a choice that is highly personal.  Go with your gut and be thankful you have the freedom to do so!  Good luck!

RickSun

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Re: taking parental leave dilemma
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2016, 02:06:16 AM »
Go with you gut. Personally I'd take the opportunity for you to take 12 months leave first, then your husband takes 6 months, and then you child is now over two years old and you'll at you comfortable age for day care.

havregryn

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Re: taking parental leave dilemma
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2016, 04:57:18 AM »
Thanks everyone. I think the main problem is that I am way too anxious about taking such an income cut now that we took on this enormous mortgage. Even though rationally I can see that the situation is not as disastrous as my anxious self sees it.

I really think this is now a case where my childhood trauma of growing up in a 3rd world country with parents who were hopeless when it came to money is coming up.
But then of course I feel terribly guilty for considering not using this privilege based on financial concerns that are to some degree imaginary.

We will get some tax reimbursements for the interest we pay and husband even gets some sort of a subsidy at work (as said, here if you possibly can, you buy an overpriced residence, which is how they became overpriced to begin with, but it is really difficult to rise above it if you're a family with small kids and no car and have already spent way too much time and money repairing other people's appliances). So the actual cost of this is probably gonna end up lower than it now seems. And as said, we could make it work out even on that lowest income scenario, just without any real increase in our savings.

I don't know, I'm really going crazy over this and my boss will want to know when I can be expected back at work relatively soon. Husband needs to give a 6 month notice if he wants to use this so for him it's even more urgent to decide.

I would want him to take this leave and he agrees it makes more sense, on the other hand he has this whole other source of anxiety as he was expecting a promotion next year. And I really don't want to be the bitch who will point out that even with that promotion my salary will be significantly higher (which is not so much because I am somehow precious to the labour market but that I work in a tax free system of international diplomacy) so it still makes no real financial sense to sacrifice my income to that.



havregryn

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Re: taking parental leave dilemma
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2016, 05:32:26 AM »
I can use all of my vacation days as I don't really plan to need vacation plus if I suddenly need time off then I can take the parental leave instead.
In general, my work is quite flexible and I can work from home 50% (more than that only in exceptional circumstances as they fear too many people working at home would be detrimental to the sense of community). I will also be entitled to 2h off to breastfeed the baby until he is one.
Given how flexible my job is and the large difference between my income working and not working I really think it's stupid for me to take leave and it should be the husband but he seems reluctant and I really can't estimate how much of it is just ridiculous (he also had a phase when he was convinced he'd never find a job here even though he has a Master in computer science) and how much is a legit concern for his career (he works for an American company so hard to say how they stand on all this stuff that I get to take for granted..they are legally obliged to offer this but corporate culture might be something else) . On the other hand all he has to do if not super happy with his job after the leave is find another one, he had plenty to choose from to begin with.
But the reason he took this one was that he really saw it as a great opportunity so I hate denying him that dream now just because I am so bloody anxious over not being able to save money while owing almost half a million euros for some walls and floors.

Because on the other hand, I actually enjoy playing housewife with the kids, for him it will just be a necessary evil.

Oh well, I'm at least glad I can vent here, I think this is the only place on Earth where people will at least in principle understand my concern because if I told anyone I know that I am suffering because our income with me on parental leave might be only enough to cover our expenses but not allow increasing already existing savings they'd have me committed.

KCM5

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Re: taking parental leave dilemma
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2016, 06:22:34 AM »
If I were you I'd take my leave, then have my husband take his leave, then send the baby (who is now a toddler) to daycare. But that's complicated by a couple of factors:

1) It doesn't sound like you want to take leave because you'll feel like you're not making enough money. Obviously, this is untrue, because you'll fully be meeting your bills and it will only be for a year, but we're all irrational about some things and that's okay.

2) It doesn't sound like your spouse wants to take leave. No one should be forcing someone who doesn't want to stay home with a baby stay home with a baby. It's seriously hard work and can be isolating, so I think the person caring for the baby full time should want to do so. For everyone's sake.

So the solution is the full time nanny. Sounds like maybe you can even go home to nurse or have the baby brought to you to nurse until a year (great perk, btw!).

havregryn

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Re: taking parental leave dilemma
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 03:44:56 AM »
We talked and kind of decided (I will probably be thinking this over and over until we both submit it in writing to our bosses either way) to go with a mix of all scenarios, starting with 4. I.e. I will tell my boss that I wouldn't be using the parental leave following maternity but that I would use all the vacation and come back to work late March.
Husband will apply for parental leave now because he can only start it in April anyway and we need to have it as a fall back option (so has to request now as there is only a legal requirement for the employer to approve it starting 6 months following the request). But then we will see when April draws near what is best.
It won't be a problem for him not to take it when April comes if it will seem unwise from a career point of view and we have by then found a better solution.
So I guess this is the best way to do it.

Yeah, breastfeeding thing is a great perk. In general my job is really great which is another reason why I feel bad about staying home for years just because it is technically possible thanks to glorious benefits. I was on sick leave for most of the pregnancy because I had nasty medical history, if I go back to work in April it will be after 12 months of absence.

Mrs. S

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Re: taking parental leave dilemma
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 04:48:28 AM »
Great to hear you have a solution sorted out and also that you and your husband agree on what makes most sense financially. Like gooki said you have to option very few of us do of actually providing child care yourself along with job security and enough money to see you through.
also don't feel bad if your husband has to take parental leave. It is his child as well and the decision is for the betterment of the family. It is really nice to know about how people are dealing with child care as we talk more and more about having a kid.

havregryn

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Re: taking parental leave dilemma
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 05:25:24 AM »
I know it's really a first world problem even among first world problems because my work situation is privileged to say the least.
I think if it weren't for this mortgage or if the two things werent happening simultaneously (we start paying it off and move to the new place in January) it would be a no brainer and I'd just enjoy the privilege of staying home with my kids.
But with this thing clouding my judgment with endless anxiety (even though rationally I am fully aware this is a far better financial deal than renting here and that the ratio of the mortgage to our income and existing assets does not make us terribly vulnerable) I just can't seem to sit down and enjoy time with kids.

As said, I think this is where my childhood issues are playing up. My parents were constantly broke (even though they earned probably in the 90+ percentile in the country) and constantly stressed over money and used our "poverty" (we lived in a third world country so we were surely poor by my current standards but they were actually quite well off relative to the local situation) as an excuse for their terrible parenting which made me grow up obsessed with keeping my finances in order, even more so now that I have kids. This is the first time ever we will have negative net worth (in our cautious not-counting-the-main-residence math at least) and I'm beyond freaked out.
To add losing 2/3 of my income into this would probably make me so crazy I'd do more harm than good at home :/

 

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