The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: icky on September 05, 2014, 11:14:19 AM
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Hi all,
I dream of being in a position where I have more freedom to not work, but sometimes I feel it's an almost greedy wish. Basically I've lived a life where good birth circumstances, privilege and luck have all added up to make me extremely fortunate. I graduated high school before I was 18 with almost a year of college credit done in AP classes, I had an internship lined up with the government by my sophomore year of college, so at 19 I was employed in a "career". I spent the first year after graduation living at home with my parents, and bought a condo in in 2009.
Now, 5 years after that, life as gone on as expected. But I'm 27 and I just feel burned out and empty. I haven't been a super mustachian this whole time, but I have about $40,000 equity in my condo, $90K in retirement savings, and $10k in stocks, no debts (my state education was funded 50/50 my parents and student loans, $30k which I paid off and a new hatchback I bought after graduation is fully paid off, I also paid for invisalign and lasik and a couple international trips) My job is great, basically with the best government agency you could hope to work, but I still wouldn't say I'm "fulfilled." None of this makes me particularly happy.
But I am a staunch feminist and I'm proud of the independence I've achieved thus far. My mom was a SAM and my dad wasn't great about treating her like an equal, so I've always been motivated by the fact that I don't have to rely on anyone else. At the same time, there's nothing I'd love more than to kick back and not work. But, the thought almost makes me sick to my stomach because of what it implies about "giving up" and turning my back on everything I've been granted thus far. I'm 27 years old, living safe and securely in my own property, I have my own bank account and job, I was given a top public education without regard to my gender, I earned a respected professional reputation, and on top of that I can have consensual sex with whoever I damn well please without fear or losing my livelihood or my independence or even having an unplanned pregnancy. Too few women throughout the world can say this. With this lens, I ALREADY have financial independence.
So, bare facts, there's $140,000 remaining on my mortgage. My monthly paycheck after taxes, health care, retirement is $3200. Beyond the $1200 for my place, I spend about $1000 more in all my other costs (gas, elect, internet, cell, insurance, monthly maid, groceries, quality cat food for one cat, and incidental shopping), so I'm left with about $1000. I realize I could be better and get this up to $1500-$1800 or so. But what should I be doing with it? Right now, I visit family a lot, eat nice food and pay for others' meals out, buy nicer furniture or hobby supplies, give it away, and finally pay a little extra on my mortgage or shoot some towards stocks (I don't really love that though, corporations don't excite me). All of that could be reallocated easily with the proper outlook.
I'm not really asking for a case study break down of my expenses, more of a kick in the pants. I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back? Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
Wow! Personally I have my wife beat me so I can feel better about myself.
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Seems like your life is lacking in meaning and happiness. I would invest in personal growth. The question you might ask is what can you do to increase happiness for you and those within your circle of influence.
Also, your targeting of single white males and married people strikes me as both biased and discriminatory. And yes, I am from a "historically disadvantaged group".
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I don't think feminism is all that it's cracked up to be, hence your unhappiness.
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Hi all,
I dream of being in a position where I have more freedom to not work, but sometimes I feel it's an almost greedy wish. Basically I've lived a life where good birth circumstances, privilege and luck have all added up to make me extremely fortunate. I graduated high school before I was 18 with almost a year of college credit done in AP classes, I had an internship lined up with the government by my sophomore year of college, so at 19 I was employed in a "career". I spent the first year after graduation living at home with my parents, and bought a condo in in 2009.
Now, 5 years after that, life as gone on as expected. But I'm 27 and I just feel burned out and empty. I haven't been a super mustachian this whole time, but I have about $40,000 equity in my condo, $90K in retirement savings, and $10k in stocks, no debts (my state education was funded 50/50 my parents and student loans, $30k which I paid off and a new hatchback I bought after graduation is fully paid off, I also paid for invisalign and lasik and a couple international trips) My job is great, basically with the best government agency you could hope to work, but I still wouldn't say I'm "fulfilled." None of this makes me particularly happy.
But I am a staunch feminist and I'm proud of the independence I've achieved thus far. My mom was a SAM and my dad wasn't great about treating her like an equal, so I've always been motivated by the fact that I don't have to rely on anyone else. At the same time, there's nothing I'd love more than to kick back and not work. But, the thought almost makes me sick to my stomach because of what it implies about "giving up" and turning my back on everything I've been granted thus far. I'm 27 years old, living safe and securely in my own property, I have my own bank account and job, I was given a top public education without regard to my gender, I earned a respected professional reputation, and on top of that I can have consensual sex with whoever I damn well please without fear or losing my livelihood or my independence or even having an unplanned pregnancy. Too few women throughout the world can say this. With this lens, I ALREADY have financial independence.
So, bare facts, there's $140,000 remaining on my mortgage. My monthly paycheck after taxes, health care, retirement is $3200. Beyond the $1200 for my place, I spend about $1000 more in all my other costs (gas, elect, internet, cell, insurance, monthly maid, groceries, quality cat food for one cat, and incidental shopping), so I'm left with about $1000. I realize I could be better and get this up to $1500-$1800 or so. But what should I be doing with it? Right now, I visit family a lot, eat nice food and pay for others' meals out, buy nicer furniture or hobby supplies, give it away, and finally pay a little extra on my mortgage or shoot some towards stocks (I don't really love that though, corporations don't excite me). All of that could be reallocated easily with the proper outlook.
I'm not really asking for a case study break down of my expenses, more of a kick in the pants. I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back? Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
People may be misunderstanding - I am not unhappy per se. I have a great job, great family, great friends. I want MORE (as MMM advocates, life can't be all about work, mine largely is at the moment) and I'm asking for motivation to be even more badass and to get the guts to reach out and take it.
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So, I'm a married person, and someone from a historically (and currently) disadvantaged group, so which question should I answer?
Personally, I just don't give a s**t about how society tells me I am supposed to feel about anything. Based on my nature and nurture, I have a variety of advantages and disadvantages going for me. I took what I was given (which was a net positive when compared to the global population) and made maximum use of it.
You should do with your extra money whatever you want with it. If you feel some guilt about your success, why not donate it to charity? Or build up your reserves and establish a non-profit or scholarship fund?
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More what?
Answer that question and you'll have your direction.
Not sure if your government agency has any provisions for sabbaticals or long leave, but perhaps you need to step away for a few months and figure out where you want your life to go.
I don't understand the guilt aspect, or what any of this has to do with feminism...
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icky, i hear what you are saying ... women alive today in the western world at least have more freedoms than basically any women in history. so, shouldn't we be using that freedom for something other than personal gain? it's almost a form of survivor's guilt. you can look around and see that there are a LOT of women in the world who don't have anywhere near the opportunities that we have. so to walk away from those opportunities can feel kind of like throwing away a gift.
but "a job" is not the only way of contributing. i would argue that every drop of freedom we claim and exercise and explore actually can have the effect of expanding freedoms for other people, if only by providing them an example of what's possible.
there are lots of ways you can contribute to the liberation of women in the world -- and in fact your relative privilege compared to most women in the world/throughout history gives you more ways you can contribute. lend your money to kiva entrepreneurs. work for reproductive rights. be a big sister to a kid who could use a different kind of example in her life. read and write and learn and talk about feminist ideas. volunteer at a battered women's shelter or as an abortion clinic escort. work to overcome your own female conditioning (which for lots of us manifests in lacking confidence, saying sorry a lot, thinking our bodies are ugly, etc).
the best way to show gratitude for the privileges you've been granted is to use them to expand the circle of freedom to include folks who aren't currently inside it.
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Great questions that you're asking.
I find that it's not a question of what we have/who we are (born with, manage to acquire, etc.), but rather what we do with what we've got/who we are. For example, there are amazing antiracist white people out there, not to mention straight allies to the LGTBQ community, men who work to end male-on-female violence, able-bodied people who see disability rights as something everyone should care about and so on.
How awesome that you had access to education, job, etc. No need to feel guilty about it - just leverage it in directions that you care about. You have a great toolbox! And if you don't know what those directions are yet, don't worry - that's part of the journey.
Ask yourself when you've been most yourself, felt most alive. Might want to try meditation (not as religion, but for insight). Also, of great help is volunteering - I've learned so much from elders, children and new immigrants to this country.
Some written resources that helped me:
- Artist's Way (relevant to non-artists as well) - Julia Cameron
- Sound of a Silver Horn: Reclaiming the Heroism in Contemporary Women's Lives - Katheleen Noble
- When Wanderers Cease to Roam: A Traveler's Journal of Staying Put - Vivian Swift
- The Moon in the Well: Wisdom Tales to Transform Your Life, Family, and Community - Erica Meade
- Tales of a Female Nomad: Living at Large in the World - Rita Gelman
Good luck!
Exhale
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You say that you are feeling unfulfilled by your job. But you are in a great position financially to take a risk and look for something new to do, with another government agency, the private sector, or even your own business. And you don't have to worry about a family yet, so you can even relocate to do it without having to consider how it would affect them. Think about what would make you excited to get up in the morning, and go for it.
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I'm not really asking for a case study break down of my expenses, more of a kick in the pants. I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back? Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
So... you're feeling guilty not because of something you've done but because of something you ARE? Interesting -- I guess the concept of original sin hasn't died out. Well then, the solution seems easy. Either be something that doesn't make you feel guilty or adapt your current lifestyle to achieve the same objective. You are, as you have pointed out, blessed with many options.
FWIW, I don't feel guilty for being a white, married, male living in the U.S. I didn't choose this life (other than the married part). Instead, I feel ridiculously fortunate, as should anyone else who lives in the U.S. in this era. We all have it SO MUCH BETTER than almost any humans that have ever lived, anywhere, at any time. I do feel the obligation to RE as soon as possible so that I can 1) properly enjoy my unbelievably fortunate life and 2) do something better with my time than making corporations (and me) as much money as possible. YMMV.
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I don't think feminism is all that it's cracked up to be, hence your unhappiness.
Political, social, and economic equality is apparently not all it's cracked up to be. What a shame.
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
I reconcile by taking advantage of the opportunity presented rather than pissing it away like so many others. Just by doing that I am paying tribute to those who made it possible. My plans also include giving back by creating opportunities for others in the form of volunteering, cash money, working for fairness/equality and teaching others how to obtain their financial freedom. I have no guilt.
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You shouldn't have guilt because you were born into privileged circumstances, whether you're a white male or just born into a wealthy family. That's ridiculous.
Financial Independence means whatever you want it to. Save up enough to quit your well-paying day job and devote your time to a greater cause. Or quit your job now and devote your time to helping disadvantaged women in other parts of the world if you want. Or whatever. Find something that has meaning to your and/or makes you happy. Then align your goals to that.
Also feminism is about achieving equality. Not making men (or women who choose to marry) feel guilty. Please represent our kind properly.
(I'm a lady too)
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
Actually, young, childless, single women now outearn young, childless, single men (http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html). Perhaps this is because 25% Fewer Men Than Women Graduate College (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/25-fewer-men-women-graduate-college-obama-its-great-accomplishment-america) - which no one seems to view as a problem.
Regarding bias towards married people, I 100% agree. Why do we have 1,138 laws where marital status is a factor (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/201006/can-you-name-the-1138-federal-hat-tips-marriage-guest-post-onely)? Why do most companies give more benefits to their employees if they are married (benefits including entire-family healthcare). Why are singles expected to work longer hours, and kids are always an excuse to leave work early, or take time off on short notice? IMO we should get the government out of marriage completely, and keep it what it should be: a private contract between two people. That won't fix all of the other societal biases towards married people that aren't government mandated, but it would be a start.
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Great questions that you're asking.
I find that it's not a question of what we have/who we are (born with, manage to acquire, etc.), but rather what we do with what we've got/who we are. For example, there are amazing antiracist white people out there, not to mention straight allies to the LGTBQ community, men who work to end male-on-female violence, able-bodied people who see disability rights as something everyone should care about and so on.
How awesome that you had access to education, job, etc. No need to feel guilty about it - just leverage it in directions that you care about. You have a great toolbox! And if you don't know what those directions are yet, don't worry - that's part of the journey.
Ask yourself when you've been most yourself, felt most alive. Might want to try meditation (not as religion, but for insight). Also, of great help is volunteering - I've learned so much from elders, children and new immigrants to this country.
Some written resources that helped me:
- Artist's Way (relevant to non-artists as well) - Julia Cameron
- Sound of a Silver Horn: Reclaiming the Heroism in Contemporary Women's Lives - Katheleen Noble
- When Wanderers Cease to Roam: A Traveler's Journal of Staying Put - Vivian Swift
- The Moon in the Well: Wisdom Tales to Transform Your Life, Family, and Community - Erica Meade
- Tales of a Female Nomad: Living at Large in the World - Rita Gelman
Good luck!
Exhale
Thanks Exhale! I will check out your list. I love Artist's Way and do my morning pages regularly. I also am a beginning meditater and a Catholic. I volunteer at my local community center teaching new immigrants english, and you're right, I've learned so much from them. But the question still is, what do I do with my MONEY. Maybe nothing, maybe I'm doing ok, maybe I read too much MMM :)
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It's pretty despicable of the OP to slam married people and single males for their so called "privilege" when she had quite a lot more of it than most males I know...
Privilege or not, I still worked hard, made good decisions, ignored impulses, and treated everyone around me with due respect and kindness, to get where I am. Anyone, regardless of their current station in life, who does that will advance.
I'm all for women being considered equal, but you're the kind of feminist I just can't take seriously.
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Female, married, mid-30s. I was well on my way to FI prior to marriage 1.5 years ago. If you'll excuse my current relationship status, I can possibly offer advice.
Pay off your mortgage. Retire from the job you clearly aren't jazzed about. Travel. Do some volunteer/lower-paying work with disadvantaged girls. Mentor. You've done well for yourself.
I mean this sincerely: It's hard in your late 20s when you fully realize you aren't getting any more prizes for personal achievements. When you're younger (and especially when you're high-achieving/smart), your community provides a ton of positive feedback for you (grades, certificates, opportunity) when you hit prescribed markers. You have to develop a system for that for yourself when you're an adult.
As an aside: I sure hope that our feminist foremothers weren't fighting the good fight so that future generations could work jobs we hate, simply so we could say we were working.
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It's pretty despicable of the OP to slam married people and single males for their so called "privilege" when she had quite a lot more of it than most males I know...
Privilege or not, I still worked hard, made good decisions, ignored impulses, and treated everyone around me with due respect and kindness, to get where I am. Anyone, regardless of their current station in life, who does that will advance.
I'm all for women being considered equal, but you're the kind of feminist I just can't take seriously.
IT was tongue and cheeck but it came off wrong. I am perfectly aware I am blessed with privilege. I was specifically asking for advice on how to deal with that fact. If you're married, most likely you are of a privileged class, that is all. Also, it's not a slam to call someone privileged, that's only how you choose to react.
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icky, i hear what you are saying ... women alive today in the western world at least have more freedoms than basically any women in history. so, shouldn't we be using that freedom for something other than personal gain? it's almost a form of survivor's guilt. you can look around and see that there are a LOT of women in the world who don't have anywhere near the opportunities that we have. so to walk away from those opportunities can feel kind of like throwing away a gift.
but "a job" is not the only way of contributing. i would argue that every drop of freedom we claim and exercise and explore actually can have the effect of expanding freedoms for other people, if only by providing them an example of what's possible.
there are lots of ways you can contribute to the liberation of women in the world -- and in fact your relative privilege compared to most women in the world/throughout history gives you more ways you can contribute. lend your money to kiva entrepreneurs. work for reproductive rights. be a big sister to a kid who could use a different kind of example in her life. read and write and learn and talk about feminist ideas. volunteer at a battered women's shelter or as an abortion clinic escort. work to overcome your own female conditioning (which for lots of us manifests in lacking confidence, saying sorry a lot, thinking our bodies are ugly, etc).
the best way to show gratitude for the privileges you've been granted is to use them to expand the circle of freedom to include folks who aren't currently inside it.
amen! thanks for the thoughts.
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you?
As a privileged married white male (who was previously a single white male) I feel qualified to answer this question:
I try my best to be a good person.
As long as that requirement can be met there's nothing to feel guilt for. There's no moral imposition.
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Female, married, mid-30s. I was well on my way to FI prior to marriage 1.5 years ago. If you'll excuse my current relationship status, I can possibly offer advice.
Pay off your mortgage. Retire from the job you clearly aren't jazzed about. Travel. Do some volunteer/lower-paying work with disadvantaged girls. Mentor. You've done well for yourself.
I mean this sincerely: It's hard in your late 20s when you fully realize you aren't getting any more prizes for personal achievements. When you're younger (and especially when you're high-achieving/smart), your community provides a ton of positive feedback for you (grades, certificates, opportunity) when you hit prescribed markers. You have to develop a system for that for yourself when you're an adult.
As an aside: I sure hope that our feminist foremothers weren't fighting the good fight so that future generations could work jobs we hate, simply so we could say we were working.
It feels so far away!! (the paying off the mortgage) I think that's ultimately where I want to be though. Thank you for your thoughts.
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I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back? Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
Well, I guess first I'm not sure which group I'm in privilege-wise. Does the fact that I'm a woman negate the fact that I'm in a marriage-like relationship, or should I ignore the relationship since we're not married and just living together? Does it make a difference that boyfriend isn't white, or that he had an upper class upbringing while I was lower middle class?
In any case, I make FI work for me by not giving a shit about "societal pressures", "historical disadvantage", or what someone else has in relation to me or whether they worked harder for it, and focusing on learning useful life skills and saving most of my money.
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You shouldn't have guilt because you were born into privileged circumstances, whether you're a white male or just born into a wealthy family. That's ridiculous.
Financial Independence means whatever you want it to. Save up enough to quit your well-paying day job and devote your time to a greater cause. Or quit your job now and devote your time to helping disadvantaged women in other parts of the world if you want. Or whatever. Find something that has meaning to your and/or makes you happy. Then align your goals to that.
Also feminism is about achieving equality. Not making men (or women who choose to marry) feel guilty. Please represent our kind properly.
(I'm a lady too)
I don't claim to represent all feminists.
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You shouldn't have guilt because you were born into privileged circumstances, whether you're a white male or just born into a wealthy family. That's ridiculous.
Financial Independence means whatever you want it to. Save up enough to quit your well-paying day job and devote your time to a greater cause. Or quit your job now and devote your time to helping disadvantaged women in other parts of the world if you want. Or whatever. Find something that has meaning to your and/or makes you happy. Then align your goals to that.
Also feminism is about achieving equality. Not making men (or women who choose to marry) feel guilty. Please represent our kind properly.
(I'm a lady too)
I don't claim to represent all feminists.
Of course, but the title of your post is "Mustachian feminist theory". And the actual post doesn't have much to do with feminism. You're inviting people to come in and make generalizations/judgements about feminists.
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I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back? Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
Well, I guess first I'm not sure which group I'm in privilege-wise. Does the fact that I'm a woman negate the fact that I'm in a marriage-like relationship, or should I ignore the relationship since we're not married and just living together? Does it make a difference that boyfriend isn't white, or that he had an upper class upbringing while I was lower middle class?
In any case, I make FI work for me by not giving a shit about "societal pressures", "historical disadvantage", or what someone else has in relation to me or whether they worked harder for it, and focusing on learning useful life skills and saving most of my money.
If you live with someone in a romantic capacity, you can share many expenses. What would you do differently if you were single finance-wise? Society allows you to save together. I'd prefer to live in some collectivist commune, it's not going to happen anytime soon because our society is not organized in that way (laws, taxes, norms). Like it or not, the system is organized to benefit coupledom. I'm not a victim, I don't care what class you're from. I'm asking for practical advice on what to do with my MONEY and how I should go forward now that I'm 27, single and living comfortably. It was a joke.
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You shouldn't have guilt because you were born into privileged circumstances, whether you're a white male or just born into a wealthy family. That's ridiculous.
Financial Independence means whatever you want it to. Save up enough to quit your well-paying day job and devote your time to a greater cause. Or quit your job now and devote your time to helping disadvantaged women in other parts of the world if you want. Or whatever. Find something that has meaning to your and/or makes you happy. Then align your goals to that.
Also feminism is about achieving equality. Not making men (or women who choose to marry) feel guilty. Please represent our kind properly.
(I'm a lady too)
I don't claim to represent all feminists.
Of course, but the title of your post is "Mustachian feminist theory". And the actual post doesn't have much to do with feminism. You're inviting people to come in and make generalizations/judgements about feminists.
Yes, I'd love to hear some of your theories. I think the wealth I've acquired thus far and the choices I have to make with what to do with that wealth has very much to do with feminism. And yes, this is a FORUM so I chose a topic to invite discussion. If people chose to make generalizations and judgements, well, that's their problem.
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I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back? Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
Well, I guess first I'm not sure which group I'm in privilege-wise. Does the fact that I'm a woman negate the fact that I'm in a marriage-like relationship, or should I ignore the relationship since we're not married and just living together? Does it make a difference that boyfriend isn't white, or that he had an upper class upbringing while I was lower middle class?
In any case, I make FI work for me by not giving a shit about "societal pressures", "historical disadvantage", or what someone else has in relation to me or whether they worked harder for it, and focusing on learning useful life skills and saving most of my money.
If you live with someone in a romantic capacity, you can share many expenses. What would you do differently if you were single finance-wise? Society allows you to save together. I'd prefer to live in some collectivist commune, it's not going to happen anytime soon because our society is not organized in that way (laws, taxes, norms). Like it or not, the system is organized to benefit coupledom. I'm not a victim, I don't care what class you're from. I'm asking for practical advice on what to do with my MONEY and how I should go forward now that I'm 27, single and living comfortably. It was a joke.
My lifestyle would be nearly identical. My rent would be slightly higher since I wouldn't be splitting it, but I'd also live in a much smaller place with internet included, so the difference would be minimal - certainly under $100/month difference, unless I decided to go for a roommate situation, in which case it would be the same or less than I pay now. My phone, bus tickets, food, clothing, haircuts, and personal care stuff would be exactly the same. I'd go to the same number of symphonies, international destinations, and movies as now, and my cat would presumably eat the same amount of food and crap in the same amount of litter. How exactly is society helping me here? I'm not seeing it.
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It sounds like you're unhappy. You say you're not by stating you have great things, jobs, education, furniture, w/e. But it doesn't sound like you have great satisfaction or great happiness. And things don't provide that.
I'd recommend radical self-improvement and an effort towards compassion and connection with other human beings. Instead of defining how you're different from others and independent, and clearly better than all of us for that, look to how you are similar and for commonalities.
Practice gratitude.
Sounds like you may be the one that needs to "check your privilege."
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I must be more self involved than some of the others on this board. I don't feel any sort of calling to do greater good for society unless it's a by product of what I'm already doing (for example, riding a bike, or just being friendly in general beacuse of my own disposition). I feel most happy and fulfilled when I think and act on my own perceptions and whims. For the early portion of my life, that was being with friends, and creating experiences and memories with them. Now that I'm married, it's making memories with my spouse, and creating and raising a family.
I think it's depressing to think too much about society as a whole. While there are plenty of good people out there and plenty of good things, when I buckle down and think about the world and how it works, it tends to get me down because I truly believe that humans default to selfishness most of the time, and only rise above that in very rare cases. Therefore, I insulate myself from that and cherry pick on things that will make me happy - mostly exploration/adventure and connection with other people
This seems to be one of those meaning of life questions that doesn't really have one right answer, only a right answer for each individual personally. So I always default to my recommendation of go out and explore the world. That's always given me the greatest joy of anything
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I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back? Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
Well, I guess first I'm not sure which group I'm in privilege-wise. Does the fact that I'm a woman negate the fact that I'm in a marriage-like relationship, or should I ignore the relationship since we're not married and just living together? Does it make a difference that boyfriend isn't white, or that he had an upper class upbringing while I was lower middle class?
In any case, I make FI work for me by not giving a shit about "societal pressures", "historical disadvantage", or what someone else has in relation to me or whether they worked harder for it, and focusing on learning useful life skills and saving most of my money.
If you live with someone in a romantic capacity, you can share many expenses. What would you do differently if you were single finance-wise? Society allows you to save together. I'd prefer to live in some collectivist commune, it's not going to happen anytime soon because our society is not organized in that way (laws, taxes, norms). Like it or not, the system is organized to benefit coupledom. I'm not a victim, I don't care what class you're from. I'm asking for practical advice on what to do with my MONEY and how I should go forward now that I'm 27, single and living comfortably. It was a joke.
My lifestyle would be nearly identical. My rent would be slightly higher since I wouldn't be splitting it, but I'd also live in a much smaller place with internet included, so the difference would be minimal - certainly under $100/month difference, unless I decided to go for a roommate situation, in which case it would be the same or less than I pay now. My phone, bus tickets, food, clothing, haircuts, and personal care stuff would be exactly the same. I'd go to the same number of symphonies, international destinations, and movies as now, and my cat would presumably eat the same amount of food and crap in the same amount of litter. How exactly is society helping me here? I'm not seeing it.
Here's an article (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/06/singled-out-are-america-s-unmarried-discriminated-against.html) on the many ways single people are discriminated against.
In his new book, Going Solo, New York University sociologist Eric Klinenberg argues that we’re poised to become a nation dominated by single people. Just 51 percent of American adults are married, according to recent census data, and more than a quarter of all U.S. households consist of only one person. Yet singles often don’t get a lot of love—and we’re not talking about their romantic lives.
Activists say that unmarried people are systematically discriminated against. They pay more for health and car insurance than married people do. They don’t get the same kind of tax breaks. Co-op boards, mortgage brokers, and landlords often pass them over. So do the employers with the power to promote them. “Singleism—stereotyping, stigmatizing, and discrimination against people who are single—is largely unrecognized and unchallenged,” says activist Bella DePaulo, the author of Singled Out.
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Here's an article (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/06/singled-out-are-america-s-unmarried-discriminated-against.html) on the many ways single people are discriminated against.
In his new book, Going Solo, New York University sociologist Eric Klinenberg argues that we’re poised to become a nation dominated by single people. Just 51 percent of American adults are married, according to recent census data, and more than a quarter of all U.S. households consist of only one person. Yet singles often don’t get a lot of love—and we’re not talking about their romantic lives.
Activists say that unmarried people are systematically discriminated against. They pay more for health and car insurance than married people do. They don’t get the same kind of tax breaks. Co-op boards, mortgage brokers, and landlords often pass them over. So do the employers with the power to promote them. “Singleism—stereotyping, stigmatizing, and discrimination against people who are single—is largely unrecognized and unchallenged,” says activist Bella DePaulo, the author of Singled Out.
I think one advantage to being single that can't be quantified by a data point is the freedom you possess. You can decide to move anywhere, do anything you want, meet anyone, etc. without having to worry about someone else. Even if you ahve the most supportive spouse in the world, the moment you enter a serious relationship, you stop thinking in terms of how decisions affect one person but how they now affect both parties. And governments are right to support and encourage unions - it promotes harmony in society.
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Now that we've got all the "how dare I use the word feminist" bullshit out of the way, the real questions is, how does mustachian ethos fit within the [liberal/feminist/socialist/environmentalist/anarchist/libertarian] (chose your poison) worldview, on the micro and macro levels? Is hoarding cash a true path to happiness? Most world religions would say no. MMM has made me think a lot and he advocates living on very very little, and yet also having bocu bucks in the bank for safety and security. It's an interesting philosophy since historically most advocates of asceticism didn't have a huge safe sum hiding for life. I do largely feel my life is gravitating towards giving most of my possessions away, and saying adios to the job, and living "radically". My hatred of human authorities extends to even the stock market, while MMM doesn't seem to go that far.
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I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back? Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
Well, I guess first I'm not sure which group I'm in privilege-wise. Does the fact that I'm a woman negate the fact that I'm in a marriage-like relationship, or should I ignore the relationship since we're not married and just living together? Does it make a difference that boyfriend isn't white, or that he had an upper class upbringing while I was lower middle class?
In any case, I make FI work for me by not giving a shit about "societal pressures", "historical disadvantage", or what someone else has in relation to me or whether they worked harder for it, and focusing on learning useful life skills and saving most of my money.
If you live with someone in a romantic capacity, you can share many expenses. What would you do differently if you were single finance-wise? Society allows you to save together. I'd prefer to live in some collectivist commune, it's not going to happen anytime soon because our society is not organized in that way (laws, taxes, norms). Like it or not, the system is organized to benefit coupledom. I'm not a victim, I don't care what class you're from. I'm asking for practical advice on what to do with my MONEY and how I should go forward now that I'm 27, single and living comfortably. It was a joke.
My lifestyle would be nearly identical. My rent would be slightly higher since I wouldn't be splitting it, but I'd also live in a much smaller place with internet included, so the difference would be minimal - certainly under $100/month difference, unless I decided to go for a roommate situation, in which case it would be the same or less than I pay now. My phone, bus tickets, food, clothing, haircuts, and personal care stuff would be exactly the same. I'd go to the same number of symphonies, international destinations, and movies as now, and my cat would presumably eat the same amount of food and crap in the same amount of litter. How exactly is society helping me here? I'm not seeing it.
Society helping you because you live and eat in shelter and with security. Same for me. It's slightly cheaper for you and thus easier to achieve "financial independence". For my circumstances, if someone were to move it with me, I assume my mortgage would be cut in half, offering me at least $600 more per month, plus tax savings, which is a sizable amount IMHO. The question is, why do it? Do the reasons change if you single or married?
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I think one advantage to being single that can't be quantified by a data point is the freedom you possess. You can decide to move anywhere, do anything you want, meet anyone, etc. without having to worry about someone else. Even if you ahve the most supportive spouse in the world, the moment you enter a serious relationship, you stop thinking in terms of how decisions affect one person but how they now affect both parties.
Actually, you have the "freedom" before you get married. You voluntarily relinquish it. As a single person, I have no way to access all of these benefits, except by getting married.
And governments are right to support and encourage unions - it promotes harmony in society.
Would LOVE to see some data on this. Everyone has seen the studies that show married people are happier and earn more, but it could just be that this type of person is more likely to get married. Perhaps married people become locked to their jobs and thus better taxpayers, so the government wants to encourage wage slavery? An interesting perspective. Regardless, offering so many benefits just for being married should surely be backed with data.
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you?
As a privileged single white male, I just go around beating up homeless black women. Sometimes I steal toys from tiny children with cancer while they watch helplessly. I've been known to light orphanages on fire, eat kittens, and tell kids that santa isn't real.
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Now that we've got all the "how dare I use the word feminist" bullshit out of the way, the real questions is, how does mustachian ethos fit within the [liberal/feminist/socialist/environmentalist/anarchist/libertarian] (chose your poison) worldview, on the micro and macro levels? Is hoarding cash a true path to happiness? Most world religions would say no. MMM has made me think a lot and he advocates living on very very little, and yet also having bocu bucks in the bank for safety and security. It's an interesting philosophy since historically most advocates of asceticism didn't have a huge safe sum hiding for life. I do largely feel my life is gravitating towards giving most of my possessions away, and saying adios to the job, and living "radically". My hatred of human authorities extends to even the stock market, while MMM doesn't seem to go that far.
I think you misunderstand him. He advocates living on enough, not accumulating a large sum of money. Enough to him is a sum of assets where a 4% withdrawal rate gives him his living expenses. He has several posts illustrating that once you get to 25x your living expenses, you will usually end up with even more wealth than planned down the line because of the power of compounding/stocks/etc. It's not about money, it's about happiness. His way of being happy is to grab only the things that make life enjoyable to him, namely his wife and kid, financial blogging, meeting people, and carpentry. Money and financial independence allows him to do these things without having to spend 8 hours a day in an office.
The whole reason there is religion in the world, regardless of what form (christianity, judaism, islam, buddhist, whatever) is because people look for meaning. Your meaning doesn't have to have micro or macro levels. I think you're looking for answers from what other people have done, but you don't have to confine yourself to what's published. Go live in a foreign coutnry for a year, maybe it'll help your pessimism. MMM's philosophy of building wealth so that you can do what you want is pretty much in line with the idea of being able to ignore authority.
I think it's funny that when you're pessimistic about things, life just seems in the way or irritating, but when you subscribe to optimism, there's not enough years in a person's life to possibly do everything that you want to
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I think one advantage to being single that can't be quantified by a data point is the freedom you possess. You can decide to move anywhere, do anything you want, meet anyone, etc. without having to worry about someone else. Even if you ahve the most supportive spouse in the world, the moment you enter a serious relationship, you stop thinking in terms of how decisions affect one person but how they now affect both parties.
Actually, you have the "freedom" before you get married. You voluntarily relinquish it. As a single person, I have no way to access all of these benefits, except by getting married.
And governments are right to support and encourage unions - it promotes harmony in society.
Would LOVE to see some data on this. Everyone has seen the studies that show married people are happier and earn more, but it could just be that this type of person is more likely to get married. Perhaps married people become locked to their jobs and thus better taxpayers, so the government wants to encourage wage slavery? An interesting perspective. Regardless, offering so many benefits just for being married should surely be backed with data.
If you want to spin it the other way. You have the "freedom" to get married if you really want access to these benefits, so I'm afraid I don't see your point
Again you're talking about data. We're people, not robots. The government wants to promote happiness, and consensus amongst society is that having more stuff and by extension a steady financial situation (ie wage slavery) is the way to achieve happiness. I don't understand your fixation with graphs and charts - mustachianism isn't just about "benefits" - it's about making time for the people you love by achieving financial independence so you don't have to spend time funding your time spent with loved ones
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Psh. White males in the US are probably the most discrimated against group in the country........
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Congratulations on everything you have done so far. You have had privilege, but only on a spectrum along with all the rest of us, and you have made respectable use of it so far. Don't forget the importance of good government (Americans seem to me to be so obsessed with the size of government that they forget the importance of it being good government, whatever its size) and that by helping to provide good government, you are doing your society a service and so paying back some of the privilege you have been granted.
It sounds to me as though you have hot-housed your way through much of your life so far. Five years in to a career in government, you may well be at the stage where your work is becoming relatively easy and a bit repetitive. You could stagnate at work, but if you want to continue hot-housing yourself you would be looking at getting promotions at work and perhaps positioning yourself to get outside appointments to charities, foundations, think-tanks and governmental and non-governmental bodies. If you want to change your line of work (you are not yet FIRE, so you need to work at something), I'd suggest taking a sabbatical and doing something completely different for a while - Peace Corps? AmeriCorps? An outside physical job? It would give you a break from what you have been doing and perhaps a new perspective on what you would want to do.
Regarding finances, you are not yet rich - you have $140,000 in mortgage debt on a net income of only $38,000, which is getting on for 4 times your annual net income. So I would tell you that you can only help others if you have a secure base to do it from, that as a single woman you can only rely on yourself to provide that base, and that you won't have it until you have a paid-off home in a reasonably safe part of the world. So financially, unless you want to make a radical change to your life, work on paying off the mortgage.
If you do want to make a radical change to your life, you might think about becoming a nun.
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Now that we've got all the "how dare I use the word feminist" bullshit out of the way, the real questions is, how does mustachian ethos fit within the [liberal/feminist/socialist/environmentalist/anarchist/libertarian] (chose your poison) worldview, on the micro and macro levels? Is hoarding cash a true path to happiness? Most world religions would say no. MMM has made me think a lot and he advocates living on very very little, and yet also having bocu bucks in the bank for safety and security. It's an interesting philosophy since historically most advocates of asceticism didn't have a huge safe sum hiding for life. I do largely feel my life is gravitating towards giving most of my possessions away, and saying adios to the job, and living "radically". My hatred of human authorities extends to even the stock market, while MMM doesn't seem to go that far.
I think you misunderstand him. He advocates living on enough, not accumulating a large sum of money. Enough to him is a sum of assets where a 4% withdrawal rate gives him his living expenses. He has several posts illustrating that once you get to 25x your living expenses, you will usually end up with even more wealth than planned down the line because of the power of compounding/stocks/etc. It's not about money, it's about happiness. His way of being happy is to grab only the things that make life enjoyable to him, namely his wife and kid, financial blogging, meeting people, and carpentry. Money and financial independence allows him to do these things without having to spend 8 hours a day in an office.
The whole reason there is religion in the world, regardless of what form (christianity, judaism, islam, buddhist, whatever) is because people look for meaning. Your meaning doesn't have to have micro or macro levels. I think you're looking for answers from what other people have done, but you don't have to confine yourself to what's published. Go live in a foreign coutnry for a year, maybe it'll help your pessimism. MMM's philosophy of building wealth so that you can do what you want is pretty much in line with the idea of being able to ignore authority.
I think it's funny that when you're pessimistic about things, life just seems in the way or irritating, but when you subscribe to optimism, there's not enough years in a person's life to possibly do everything that you want to
I think you misunderstand him. He most certainly advocates accumulating a large sum of money. And investing it in a fund which benefits from conglomerations which benefit from globalized labor of all those poor souls you're recommending going to visit for my shot at enlightenment. I am pessimistic. I am pessimistic that money will make me happy.
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Congratulations on everything you have done so far. You have had privilege, but only on a spectrum along with all the rest of us, and you have made respectable use of it so far. Don't forget the importance of good government (Americans seem to me to be so obsessed with the size of government that they forget the importance of it being good government, whatever its size) and that by helping to provide good government, you are doing your society a service and so paying back some of the privilege you have been granted.
It sounds to me as though you have hot-housed your way through much of your life so far. Five years in to a career in government, you may well be at the stage where your work is becoming relatively easy and a bit repetitive. You could stagnate at work, but if you want to continue hot-housing yourself you would be looking at getting promotions at work and perhaps positioning yourself to get outside appointments to charities, foundations, think-tanks and governmental and non-governmental bodies. If you want to change your line of work (you are not yet FIRE, so you need to work at something), I'd suggest taking a sabbatical and doing something completely different for a while - Peace Corps? AmeriCorps? An outside physical job? It would give you a break from what you have been doing and perhaps a new perspective on what you would want to do.
Regarding finances, you are not yet rich - you have $140,000 in mortgage debt on a net income of only $38,000, which is getting on for 4 times your annual net income. So I would tell you that you can only help others if you have a secure base to do it from, that as a single woman you can only rely on yourself to provide that base, and that you won't have it until you have a paid-off home in a reasonably safe part of the world. So financially, unless you want to make a radical change to your life, work on paying off the mortgage.
If you do want to make a radical change to your life, you might think about becoming a nun.
I've very much considered becoming a nun (totally serious) Pope Francis gives me hope, but that pesky "have sex with anyone I damn well please" gets in the way a bit. Thank you for you thoughts.
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Now that we've got all the "how dare I use the word feminist" bullshit out of the way, the real questions is, how does mustachian ethos fit within the [liberal/feminist/socialist/environmentalist/anarchist/libertarian] (chose your poison) worldview, on the micro and macro levels? Is hoarding cash a true path to happiness? Most world religions would say no. MMM has made me think a lot and he advocates living on very very little, and yet also having bocu bucks in the bank for safety and security. It's an interesting philosophy since historically most advocates of asceticism didn't have a huge safe sum hiding for life. I do largely feel my life is gravitating towards giving most of my possessions away, and saying adios to the job, and living "radically". My hatred of human authorities extends to even the stock market, while MMM doesn't seem to go that far.
I think you misunderstand him. He advocates living on enough, not accumulating a large sum of money. Enough to him is a sum of assets where a 4% withdrawal rate gives him his living expenses. He has several posts illustrating that once you get to 25x your living expenses, you will usually end up with even more wealth than planned down the line because of the power of compounding/stocks/etc. It's not about money, it's about happiness. His way of being happy is to grab only the things that make life enjoyable to him, namely his wife and kid, financial blogging, meeting people, and carpentry. Money and financial independence allows him to do these things without having to spend 8 hours a day in an office.
The whole reason there is religion in the world, regardless of what form (christianity, judaism, islam, buddhist, whatever) is because people look for meaning. Your meaning doesn't have to have micro or macro levels. I think you're looking for answers from what other people have done, but you don't have to confine yourself to what's published. Go live in a foreign coutnry for a year, maybe it'll help your pessimism. MMM's philosophy of building wealth so that you can do what you want is pretty much in line with the idea of being able to ignore authority.
I think it's funny that when you're pessimistic about things, life just seems in the way or irritating, but when you subscribe to optimism, there's not enough years in a person's life to possibly do everything that you want to
I think you misunderstand him. He most certainly advocates accumulating a large sum of money. And investing it in a fund which benefits from conglomerations which benefit from globalized labor of all those poor souls you're recommending going to visit for my shot at enlightenment. I am pessimistic. I am pessimistic that money will make me happy.
Here's his post explaining the root of why he wanted to reach financial independence
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/
He's also done a lot of interviews where he explicitly states that the major factor for him and his wife to give up their jobs is so they can spend time with their newborn. The financial stuff is a side effect of his general attitude on life. Money isn't meant to make you happy, it's meant to enable you to not worry about it so you can focus on the things that DO make you happy.
It seems like you're miserable and have lots of guilt/soapbox syndrome and wish to spread it to everyone else, and my answer to you is that when you're happy, you tend not to subscribe to such simplified views of the world. The reason people have enlightenment when visiting those "poor" souls is because they find out that such "poor" souls that you speak so condescendingly of do not think they're poor at all. They're happy and supremely optimistic. Instead of the negative/borderline stubborn attitude you're displaying to the community, you could try out some of our suggestions before putting them down
Here's another link you can waste your time on - from the completely non-financial blogger realm and talks about one of the poorest countries on earth and what he learned while spending time there: http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/08/19-things-learned-nigeria.html
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Psh. White males in the US are probably the most discrimated against group in the country........
HA! Good one!
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I am pessimistic. I am pessimistic that money will make me happy.
Good!
Money shouldn't equate to happiness. Money accumulation is simply a chore you need to get out of the way so that you can enjoy your life.
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I think you misunderstand him. He most certainly advocates accumulating a large sum of money. And investing it in a fund which benefits from conglomerations which benefit from globalized labor of all those poor souls you're recommending going to visit for my shot at enlightenment. I am pessimistic. I am pessimistic that money will make me happy.
Sounds like you're missing the point of the mustachian view on what money is for. "Hoarding" it is not the point. Having enough money that you never (or rarely?) have to work again through reduced expenditures and mindful living is the point.
But if you're that pessimistic about it, become an ascetic and assume a vow of poverty. But I doubt you'd like that much either, as it sounds you've never come anything near what being even American poor is.
Also, you're 27. Prime age for what is called an existential crisis and is more often referred to (by those in the age group) as a "quarter-life crisis." Maybe read Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning (or don't because "Man" is in the title referring to humans) and check out the school of logotherapy.
Have you done volunteer work? It can be very challenging, depending what you do, but also very rewarding. And these two aspects of it are intrinsically linked. And you don't have to go to a distant nation to do it. There are people in your very community that need a lot of help. And giving them your money won't help them long-term (check out Singer's The Life You Can Save) but some friendship, compassion, guidance, empathy, could be monumental for them. And you'd learn a helluva lot too.
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Now that we've got all the "how dare I use the word feminist" bullshit out of the way, the real questions is, how does mustachian ethos fit within the [liberal/feminist/socialist/environmentalist/anarchist/libertarian] (chose your poison) worldview, on the micro and macro levels? Is hoarding cash a true path to happiness? Most world religions would say no. MMM has made me think a lot and he advocates living on very very little, and yet also having bocu bucks in the bank for safety and security. It's an interesting philosophy since historically most advocates of asceticism didn't have a huge safe sum hiding for life. I do largely feel my life is gravitating towards giving most of my possessions away, and saying adios to the job, and living "radically". My hatred of human authorities extends to even the stock market, while MMM doesn't seem to go that far.
I think you misunderstand him. He advocates living on enough, not accumulating a large sum of money. Enough to him is a sum of assets where a 4% withdrawal rate gives him his living expenses. He has several posts illustrating that once you get to 25x your living expenses, you will usually end up with even more wealth than planned down the line because of the power of compounding/stocks/etc. It's not about money, it's about happiness. His way of being happy is to grab only the things that make life enjoyable to him, namely his wife and kid, financial blogging, meeting people, and carpentry. Money and financial independence allows him to do these things without having to spend 8 hours a day in an office.
The whole reason there is religion in the world, regardless of what form (christianity, judaism, islam, buddhist, whatever) is because people look for meaning. Your meaning doesn't have to have micro or macro levels. I think you're looking for answers from what other people have done, but you don't have to confine yourself to what's published. Go live in a foreign coutnry for a year, maybe it'll help your pessimism. MMM's philosophy of building wealth so that you can do what you want is pretty much in line with the idea of being able to ignore authority.
I think it's funny that when you're pessimistic about things, life just seems in the way or irritating, but when you subscribe to optimism, there's not enough years in a person's life to possibly do everything that you want to
I think you misunderstand him. He most certainly advocates accumulating a large sum of money. And investing it in a fund which benefits from conglomerations which benefit from globalized labor of all those poor souls you're recommending going to visit for my shot at enlightenment. I am pessimistic. I am pessimistic that money will make me happy.
Here's his post explaining the root of why he wanted to reach financial independence
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/
He's also done a lot of interviews where he explicitly states that the major factor for him and his wife to give up their jobs is so they can spend time with their newborn. The financial stuff is a side effect of his general attitude on life. Money isn't meant to make you happy, it's meant to enable you to not worry about it so you can focus on the things that DO make you happy.
It seems like you're miserable and have lots of guilt/soapbox syndrome and wish to spread it to everyone else, and my answer to you is that when you're happy, you tend not to subscribe to such simplified views of the world. The reason people have enlightenment when visiting those "poor" souls is because they find out that such "poor" souls that you speak so condescendingly of do not think they're poor at all. They're happy and supremely optimistic. Instead of the negative/borderline stubborn attitude you're displaying to the community, you could try out some of our suggestions before putting them down
Here's another link you can waste your time on - from the completely non-financial blogger realm and talks about one of the poorest countries on earth and what he learned while spending time there: http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/08/19-things-learned-nigeria.html
see #7 as for why I wouldn't want to go to Nigeria and in fact would be endangering my life. It's a sweeping generalization to say all Nigerians are more optimistic than me when in fact many have been killed for their sexual orientation. And you should read about those school girls and boys and Boko Haram.
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I think you misunderstand him. He most certainly advocates accumulating a large sum of money. And investing it in a fund which benefits from conglomerations which benefit from globalized labor of all those poor souls you're recommending going to visit for my shot at enlightenment. I am pessimistic. I am pessimistic that money will make me happy.
Sounds like you're missing the point of the mustachian view on what money is for. "Hoarding" it is not the point. Having enough money that you never (or rarely?) have to work again through reduced expenditures and mindful living is the point.
But if you're that pessimistic about it, become an ascetic and assume a vow of poverty. But I doubt you'd like that much either, as it sounds you've never come anything near what being even American poor is.
Also, you're 27. Prime age for what is called an existential crisis and is more often referred to (by those in the age group) as a "quarter-life crisis." Maybe read Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning (or don't because "Man" is in the title referring to humans) and check out the school of logotherapy.
Have you done volunteer work? It can be very challenging, depending what you do, but also very rewarding. And these two aspects of it are intrinsically linked. And you don't have to go to a distant nation to do it. There are people in your very community that need a lot of help. And giving them your money won't help them long-term (check out Singer's The Life You Can Save) but some friendship, compassion, guidance, empathy, could be monumental for them. And you'd learn a helluva lot too.
I've spent a lot of time teaching English and I've read The Life You Can Save. This is in my community,I know I don't have to travel. I give a lot of my money away already (the extra $1000 I talked about in my post) I'm asking if I should be more committed to FI instead, and if so, to please provide me compelling motivation to do so.
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I've spent a lot of time teaching English and I've read The Life You Can Save. This is in my community,I know I don't have to travel. I give a lot of my money away already (the extra $1000 I talked about in my post) I'm asking if I should be more committed to FI instead, and if so, to please provide me compelling motivation to do so.
So you want internet strangers to give you reasons why you should save enough money to not actively work any more? If you don't have enough reasons for yourself/your own life, I'd work on finding things you enjoy enough to leave everything else for. For me, it's spending time with my SO, surfing, cooking, reading, learning, playing with my dog.
tl;dr: no one can give you things to make you happy/fulfilled, you have to find those things on your own. I recommend compassion, gratitude, and human connection.
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I'm going to ignore all the upstream drama and take a crack at answering the OP's question.
I know feminist theory backwards and forwards, and there's nothing in there that says you can't make intelligent choices about money so you can be financially independent. Taking care of myself financially has aligned me better with my feminist values, because I don't have to make choices based on needing access to someone else's money.
I remember when I was in my mid-late 20s, with a very similar background to yours, that I had a lot of vague undirected guilt about stuff. I recognize at this point that it was a combination of family upbringing, and social values that I no longer buy into, such as the idea that being a good person means putting other people's needs ahead of your own. It sounds like you're starting to question and react to a lot of social pressure you might not have been as aware of in the past. Something to think about, anyway.
I do consider sometimes that if I walk away from my career, I won't be there as a role model or mentor for other women, but again - you can't plan your whole life around what you think other people want from you.
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I've spent a lot of time teaching English and I've read The Life You Can Save. This is in my community,I know I don't have to travel. I give a lot of my money away already (the extra $1000 I talked about in my post) I'm asking if I should be more committed to FI instead, and if so, to please provide me compelling motivation to do so.
So you want internet strangers to give you reasons why you should save enough money to not actively work any more? If you don't have enough reasons for yourself/your own life, I'd work on finding things you enjoy enough to leave everything else for. For me, it's spending time with my SO, surfing, cooking, reading, learning, playing with my dog.
tl;dr: no one can give you things to make you happy/fulfilled, you have to find those things on your own. I recommend compassion, gratitude, and human connection.
Ok, thanks for you input. I think you're right. There's no real reason for to keep shoveling that 1k into some S&P fund. Consider this though, it's possible practicing compassion, gratitude and human connection is directly at odds with the Mustachian strategy.
Non-possession is allied to non-stealing. A thing not originally stolen must nevertheless be classified as stolen property, if we possess it without needing it. Possession implies provision for the future. A seeker after Truth, a follower of the law of Love, cannot hold anything against tomorrow. God never stores for the morrow. He never creates more than what is strictly needed for the moment. If, therefore, we repose faith in His Providence, we should rest assured that He will give us every day our daily bread, meaning everything that we require.... Our ignorance or negligence of the Divine Law, which gives to man from day to day his daily bread and no more, has given rise to inequalities with all the miseries attendant upon them. The rich have superfluous store of things which they do not need and which are, therefore, neglected and wasted, while millions are starved to death for want of sustenance.
-- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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Now that we've got all the "how dare I use the word feminist" bullshit out of the way, the real questions is, how does mustachian ethos fit within the [liberal/feminist/socialist/environmentalist/anarchist/libertarian] (chose your poison) worldview, on the micro and macro levels? Is hoarding cash a true path to happiness? Most world religions would say no. MMM has made me think a lot and he advocates living on very very little, and yet also having bocu bucks in the bank for safety and security. It's an interesting philosophy since historically most advocates of asceticism didn't have a huge safe sum hiding for life. I do largely feel my life is gravitating towards giving most of my possessions away, and saying adios to the job, and living "radically". My hatred of human authorities extends to even the stock market, while MMM doesn't seem to go that far.
I'd love to answer that question, but seriously, I'm just going to assume that you're trolling. Nobody is as stereotypical as that.
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Now that we've got all the "how dare I use the word feminist" bullshit out of the way, the real questions is, how does mustachian ethos fit within the [liberal/feminist/socialist/environmentalist/anarchist/libertarian] (chose your poison) worldview, on the micro and macro levels? Is hoarding cash a true path to happiness? Most world religions would say no. MMM has made me think a lot and he advocates living on very very little, and yet also having bocu bucks in the bank for safety and security. It's an interesting philosophy since historically most advocates of asceticism didn't have a huge safe sum hiding for life. I do largely feel my life is gravitating towards giving most of my possessions away, and saying adios to the job, and living "radically". My hatred of human authorities extends to even the stock market, while MMM doesn't seem to go that far.
I'd love to answer that question, but seriously, I'm just going to assume that you're trolling. Nobody is as stereotypical as that.
After the post above yours, YoungInvestor, I'm realizing the same. =\ OP looks to want to troll/argue as opposed to seeking potentially valid advice from the board.
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I'm going to ignore all the upstream drama and take a crack at answering the OP's question.
I know feminist theory backwards and forwards, and there's nothing in there that says you can't make intelligent choices about money so you can be financially independent. Taking care of myself financially has aligned me better with my feminist values, because I don't have to make choices based on needing access to someone else's money.
I remember when I was in my mid-late 20s, with a very similar background to yours, that I had a lot of vague undirected guilt about stuff. I recognize at this point that it was a combination of family upbringing, and social values that I no longer buy into, such as the idea that being a good person means putting other people's needs ahead of your own. It sounds like you're starting to question and react to a lot of social pressure you might not have been as aware of in the past. Something to think about, anyway.
I do consider sometimes that if I walk away from my career, I won't be there as a role model or mentor for other women, but again - you can't plan your whole life around what you think other people want from you.
+1
Bolded portion: Holy shit yes. Realizing in my middle/late 20s that I had family members who put others first simply so they could act martyred/high & mighty about always putting people first? Talk about missing the point of altruism. Separating myself from the belief systems (inclusive of, but not exclusive to religion) of my family of origin was a long project at that point in my life.
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you?
As a privileged married white male (who was previously a single white male) I feel qualified to answer this question:
I try my best to be a good person.
As long as that requirement can be met there's nothing to feel guilt for. There's no moral imposition.
People in the world are starving. Americans grow food with the knowledge its way too much than can ever be consumed. Girls are sold into sex slavery and trafficked in OUR countries. My cell phone and computers were mostly assembled by someone who worked 12+ hours a day and that's not counting all the people who worked to get the material and the various environmental atrocities their employers committed while doing so. What is being a good person to you? How can you feel no guilt? I truly cannot comprehend.
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Consider this though, it's possible practicing compassion, gratitude and human connection is directly at odds with the Mustachian strategy.
You guys are probably right that this is a troll. However, in response to the above, compassion, gratitude and human connection is absolutely not at odds with the MMM principles. In fact, my take on the whole point of it is that when you stop believe that you need to acquire things, new and better things, and do certain things to be happy, you are so much more FREE to actually practice compassion, gratitude and human connection. What your are suggesting that the MMM lifestyle is fixated on money when the opposite is true.
If you have never been poor (actually or functionally), I can understand that it would be difficult to grasp.
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I think what the OP is trying to say is the only solution is extinction.
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I'm going to ignore all the upstream drama and take a crack at answering the OP's question.
I know feminist theory backwards and forwards, and there's nothing in there that says you can't make intelligent choices about money so you can be financially independent. Taking care of myself financially has aligned me better with my feminist values, because I don't have to make choices based on needing access to someone else's money.
I remember when I was in my mid-late 20s, with a very similar background to yours, that I had a lot of vague undirected guilt about stuff. I recognize at this point that it was a combination of family upbringing, and social values that I no longer buy into, such as the idea that being a good person means putting other people's needs ahead of your own. It sounds like you're starting to question and react to a lot of social pressure you might not have been as aware of in the past. Something to think about, anyway.
I do consider sometimes that if I walk away from my career, I won't be there as a role model or mentor for other women, but again - you can't plan your whole life around what you think other people want from you.
Right - so do you walk away or not? Is that what you're working toward or would you like to stay? I don't need access to anyone else's money, but society has put me in a position to be able to say that. I obviously worked hard to get there and was given opportunities to blow it, but I haven't yet. What am I waiting for?
People like to make fun of me, its fine. I'm either too stupid to know why FI is good, or just a troll. I'm asking specifically about that extra $1k a month and the motivation to DO THE RIGHT THING with it. If people know what the right thing always is, good for them, but I surely don't.
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It's pretty despicable of the OP to slam married people and single males for their so called "privilege" when she had quite a lot more of it than most males I know...
Privilege or not, I still worked hard, made good decisions, ignored impulses, and treated everyone around me with due respect and kindness, to get where I am. Anyone, regardless of their current station in life, who does that will advance.
I'm all for women being considered equal, but you're the kind of feminist I just can't take seriously.
Why should we not look at privilege born of non-effort and the effect of such? Why is that despicable?
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It sounds like you might be struggling a bit with aligning your money/investments with your values? There are plenty of socially responsible investing options out there if that's important to you.
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I am super confused, what's the topic here?
Is the OP asking about the meaning of life for a woman?
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I am super confused, what's the topic here?
Is the OP asking about the meaning of life for a woman?
yep! in the same ways MMM writes about the meaning of his life for a married man! The topic is called "ask a mustachian" and I specifically asked to hear from mustachian single women about their motivations for the MMM lifestyle.
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And then of course there's this perspective:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVTXFsHYLKA
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Troll.
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It sounds like you might be struggling a bit with aligning your money/investments with your values? There are plenty of socially responsible investing options out there if that's important to you.
hmm good point. I realize MMM advocates for other things than just an S&P fund (real estate, lending club). In my position, not yet being FI though, I haven't heard much about it. From what I've read, its like, yeah, you can try to invest in "green" and "socially conscious" companies, but you'll end up spending a lot of time and most likely loosing money. Any good resources you know of?
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This thread is getting weirder than the WestchesterFrugal ones a while back...
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Why should we not look at privilege born of non-effort and the effect of such? Why is that despicable?
Well, she didn't bring it up to look at, in any intellectual way, what priviliege does. She brought it up entirely to shame men for any kind of success, to shit on the fact that it still takes a lot of effort and dedication to turn that privilege into a successful life. Perhaps she ment it tongue and cheek, but it just drips of hatred for men and some kind of chip on her shoulder.
In general, using "privilege" as an explanation for why one person is successful and another is not, re-enforces a victim mentality in those who perceive themselves not to be privileged. It also creates an environment where discriminatory practices and legislation against those who are perceived to be privileged are cheered.
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I'm confused. You're combining a lot of different topics here. Where you should put your extra $1000, if you should be feeling guilty for not being poor and starving, why other people aren't boycotting the stock market because some corporations do bad things . . . I'm really not even sure which one to address.
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What purpose does guilt serve exactly? Why don't you look at what you can do and do it - or do you not really want to do anything and prefer to analyze from an armchair about how privileged you are?
Seems somewhat self-indulgent unless, of course, you have an unaddressed anxiety disorder which you are interpreting as feelings of guilt. Might be worth checking into.
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Why should we not look at privilege born of non-effort and the effect of such? Why is that despicable?
Well, she didn't bring it up to look at, in any intellectual way, what priviliege does. She brought it up entirely to shame men for any kind of success, to shit on the fact that it still takes a lot of effort and dedication to turn that privilege into a successful life. Perhaps she ment it tongue and cheek, but it just drips of hatred for men and some kind of chip on her shoulder.
In general, using "privilege" as an explanation for why one person is successful and another is not, re-enforces a victim mentality in those who perceive themselves not to be privileged. It also creates an environment where discriminatory practices and legislation against those who are perceived to be privileged are cheered.
Do you have any actual peer reviewed studies to back up this statement? Because there is a whole field of study on bias, which causes privilege within certain groups as well as harm certain groups. And within that field there is a hypothesis that being aware of bias in more beneficial because people can work around those bias in their are aware, in a way that could be impossible without that. I am at a conference on my iPad but I would be able to post abstracts/citations tomorrow.
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Why should we not look at privilege born of non-effort and the effect of such? Why is that despicable?
Well, she didn't bring it up to look at, in any intellectual way, what priviliege does. She brought it up entirely to shame men for any kind of success, to shit on the fact that it still takes a lot of effort and dedication to turn that privilege into a successful life.
It's not intellectual because it didn't come from an intelligent man such as yourself, is that it? Please, illuminate for me my clear hatred of men because I certainly don't feel it. I posted 4 paragraphs about my privilege. You don't think I worked hard to stay where I am though? You don't think other people shit on my successes? You don't think men take my concerns as a single woman as proof I hate them and everything they stand for? My father was exactly like you, which is why I needed stability and job and a condo so badly. I cannot lose this. I owe it to my mother to not lose this. It's a viewpoint I have because I am a woman and descended from women that I cannot rely on a man, not because I hate them, but because I just cannot.
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How about that local sports team?
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I think what the OP is trying to say is the only solution is extinction.
Agree. I would suggest to the OP to read Nietzsche's "The Antichrist".
Available free as PDF - just google it.
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How about that local sports team?
In before it is locked!
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I've spent a lot of time teaching English and I've read The Life You Can Save. This is in my community,I know I don't have to travel. I give a lot of my money away already (the extra $1000 I talked about in my post) I'm asking if I should be more committed to FI instead, and if so, to please provide me compelling motivation to do so.
So you want internet strangers to give you reasons why you should save enough money to not actively work any more? If you don't have enough reasons for yourself/your own life, I'd work on finding things you enjoy enough to leave everything else for. For me, it's spending time with my SO, surfing, cooking, reading, learning, playing with my dog.
tl;dr: no one can give you things to make you happy/fulfilled, you have to find those things on your own. I recommend compassion, gratitude, and human connection.
Ok, thanks for you input. I think you're right. There's no real reason for to keep shoveling that 1k into some S&P fund. Consider this though, it's possible practicing compassion, gratitude and human connection is directly at odds with the Mustachian strategy.
Non-possession is allied to non-stealing. A thing not originally stolen must nevertheless be classified as stolen property, if we possess it without needing it. Possession implies provision for the future. A seeker after Truth, a follower of the law of Love, cannot hold anything against tomorrow. God never stores for the morrow. He never creates more than what is strictly needed for the moment. If, therefore, we repose faith in His Providence, we should rest assured that He will give us every day our daily bread, meaning everything that we require.... Our ignorance or negligence of the Divine Law, which gives to man from day to day his daily bread and no more, has given rise to inequalities with all the miseries attendant upon them. The rich have superfluous store of things which they do not need and which are, therefore, neglected and wasted, while millions are starved to death for want of sustenance.
-- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Too many random topics but I want to comment on this one.
I know someone who lived their life based their own interpretation of the logic used in that quote. They decided suddenly it's a sin to make any plans because it defies God's plan. If you want God to care for you, then you need to just do nothing that involves thinking of the future and just see what God has in store for you. To what extent can this logic be followed before you reach its ultimate conclusion? Well, it's a sin to own a fridge obviously because it means that you are preserving your food for your next meal. It's a sin to do most things that imply any worry of consequence. My friend has let his house fall down around him because he won't do maintenance. The city has posted condemned notices. He has no money because he gave it all to random charity and strangers. Now he's begging friends to step in and support him.
Decide for yourself your own goals and values. Try to look at any logic you are trying to live by and see how it will end if followed through to its ultimate conclusion. If you decide that the ultimate conclusion doesn't align with your desired future then change your plan.
Do you feel like you are bad for throwing away the opportunity given to you that you can work to support yourself while other women for generations didn't have this opportunity? Just because this option is now available doesn't mean you have to choose it. Or that not choosing it is somehow wrong.
If you are worried about religious matters and charity. Consider if you are FI retired you can devote all your new free time to charity work if that is what you want.
I'm not trying to imply a false dichotomy of "save the money and retire early" and "give away everything and go penniless." You're just mentioning saving vs giving. Saving now can allow you to do greater things later. If you feel happy with yourself by giving away any extra money you make instead of saving it now, then so be it.
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Why should we not look at privilege born of non-effort and the effect of such? Why is that despicable?
Well, she didn't bring it up to look at, in any intellectual way, what priviliege does. She brought it up entirely to shame men for any kind of success, to shit on the fact that it still takes a lot of effort and dedication to turn that privilege into a successful life.
It's not intellectual because it didn't come from an intelligent man such as yourself, is that it? Please, illuminate for me my clear hatred of men because I certainly don't feel it. I posted 4 paragraphs about my privilege. You don't think I worked hard to stay where I am though? You don't think other people shit on my successes? You don't think men take my concerns as a single woman as proof I hate them and everything they stand for? My father was exactly like you, which is why I needed stability and job and a condo so badly. I cannot lose this. I owe it to my mother to not lose this. It's a viewpoint I have because I am a woman and descended from women that I cannot rely on a man, not because I hate them, but because I just cannot.
It's not intellectual because you made your childish jab at the end of your post with no discussion about it. That's why. As for your "clear" hatred of men... I used no such word. I say "DRIPS of hatred for men," which would have been better worded as "seems to convey a hatred for men." If the hatred isn't there, then perhaps use some more diplomacy in future posts that may be interpreted that way.
I don't know anything about your father, or what he did/didn't do to make you have this attitude, but it's not all bad that you want to take care of yourself. I don't believe I said anything about that.
Gin, I don't have any peer reviewed sources for what I say, other than how I see it manifested in people around me. I'm sure a certain awareness of privilege and other potential headwinds, to people who WANT to overcome them, is beneficial. To many others, it's an excuse to demand handouts.
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you?
As a privileged married white male (who was previously a single white male) I feel qualified to answer this question:
I try my best to be a good person.
As long as that requirement can be met there's nothing to feel guilt for. There's no moral imposition.
People in the world are starving. Americans grow food with the knowledge its way too much than can ever be consumed. Girls are sold into sex slavery and trafficked in OUR countries. My cell phone and computers were mostly assembled by someone who worked 12+ hours a day and that's not counting all the people who worked to get the material and the various environmental atrocities their employers committed while doing so. What is being a good person to you? How can you feel no guilt? I truly cannot comprehend.
We live in an unfair world, there's no doubt about that. It's almost sickening at the micro level. But by and large the planet, for humans, is becoming a more fair place to live, albeit slowly. I take some solace from that notion.
Power in our culture is held disproportionately by white males, there's no doubt about that. But across the planet the power is wielded by those with money. Sure, we should continue to make strides to curb sexism and racism. But no nation on earth will ever offer each of it's citizens a truly equal opportunity until it adopts fiscal and monetary policy that treat money as the TAX CREDIT that it is. Citizens, and thus their government, must understand that money cannot be separated from the tax that it extinguishes or the law that governs them. They must recognize that money itself belongs to the group of people (sovereign nation) who choose to create it. If citizens and their government still act and talk (as we do in America) like money is some finite natural resource that is possessed by individuals (rather than the group), and therefor must be taxed away from them to do the work of the government, there is no hope for a society with equal opportunity.
Money in real life really isn't much more complicated than a game of monopoly. It baffles me that well-educated citizens, especially ones well versed in individual financial management, continue to mix the current reality of fiat money with the pre-1970s world of hard money. It can't be both ways. Either money should belong to us all, or it should belong to us individuals. It can't be both ways.
Most of us would see the inherent injustice in forcing a monopoly player to start out with no money while another player started the game with half of the assets on the board.
I agree that there is privilege-blindness all around us when it comes to race and gender in America. It's obvious in the aggregate, the way young white males flock to libertarian ideas. There are plenty of young white males, many on this forum, who have built fortunes by starting out with nothing. What they don't realize is the young black man or white woman in the same financial position, started with less than nothing!
But that inequality is but a drop in the bucket compared to the inequality between all of us starting with nothing or next to nothing and those with significant wealth at birth (or 18, however you look at it).
You don't have to abandon respect for private property rights or embrace communism to realize that when wealth can be amassed by individuals and passed to the next generation, equality of opportunity and obligation cannot be achieved.
If the idea of every citizen starting life with the same financial wealth offends you, then you probably don't fully grasp that money is a tax credit. Of course there's no way to prove it, but it's likely that: the more you are offended by this, the more privileged you are.
If you start replacing the word money with "tax credit" every time you think about anything concerning money, the world will make more sense. Why would someone want to hoard tax credits? Why would the group who issues tax credits allow one individual or small group to control large amounts of tax credits? It's common knowledge that taxes against the individual or the corporation or the economic activity in which they engage, serve to set the obligation of that individual or corporation to the rest of society (the group). But, it must follow that as tax credits are accumulated by an individual, the reverse obligation is created; an obligation from the group to the individual. As long as the government issuing the tax credits has the authority to collect the tax it's owed, those who owe tax will have a need to obtain tax credits and the value of money is maintained.
It's one thing for a system to allow a man to hoard enough tax credits in his lifetime that he can afford to pay the tax obligation of every other citizen in the group. After all, in a system where the law is fair and it's applied fairly, that man served his fellow citizens as well as himself by proving he was worthy of their tax credits. But it's another thing entirely for that man's son to come into the world with enough tax credits for thousands of lifetimes!
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It is also a sweeping generalization to suggest that you know that one part of a married couple lives less expensively than you. I would save much more money if I wasn't married. I wouldn't be paying a mortgage on a 3 bedroom house, my health and car insurance would be much less, and I would spend much less money on groceries, for starters. My hobbies, running and reading, cost very little, but my husbands are more. I also acquired his student debt.
Same here. I'm a married woman and I'm the breadwinner. My husband works very p/t for minimal wages, about enough to buy food for the cat. I appreciate the tax benefit I got from marriage, but other than that, it's definitely cost me more to be married than single, and slowed my path to FI.
However, I wouldn't give up my husband or trade him in for one with a bigger income. :) He is the homemaker and we enjoy a lot of quality of life improvements even though we have less money. We're not the double-income couple that's always rushing around and eating in the car and sees each other for 5 minutes a night.
This doesn't really answer the OP's question, though.
I think some folks need to chill out and not interpret what she said as an attack on *anyone*, because it wasn't one. Expressing the opinion that male privilege exists is not remotely the same thing as shitting on hardworking men for their success.
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you?
As a privileged married white male (who was previously a single white male) I feel qualified to answer this question:
I try my best to be a good person.
As long as that requirement can be met there's nothing to feel guilt for. There's no moral imposition.
People in the world are starving. Americans grow food with the knowledge its way too much than can ever be consumed. Girls are sold into sex slavery and trafficked in OUR countries. My cell phone and computers were mostly assembled by someone who worked 12+ hours a day and that's not counting all the people who worked to get the material and the various environmental atrocities their employers committed while doing so. What is being a good person to you? How can you feel no guilt? I truly cannot comprehend.
We live in an unfair world, there's no doubt about that. It's almost sickening at the micro level. But by and large the planet, for humans, is becoming a more fair place to live, albeit slowly. I take some solace from that notion.
It's one thing for a system to allow a man to hoard enough tax credits in his lifetime that he can afford to pay the tax obligation of every other citizen in the group. After all, in a system where the law is fair and it's applied fairly, that man served his fellow citizens as well as himself by proving he was worthy of their tax credits. But it's another thing entirely for that man's son to come into the world with enough tax credits for thousands of lifetimes!
I disagree with nearly everything you have just written. I will never subscribe to an idea that what I have is merely on-loan from the government. But, Have fun in the drum circle, I'll pass on the funny smelling brownies, I'm out.
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Hmm. Well. I'm not sure what you are asking - the meaning of life? What you should be doing? Why should you be saving?
I think you are pretty far ahead of the game. For me, it was always about security.
My circumstances are different than yours. First, I was poor growing up and the first generation to go to college (which I did on an NROTC scholarship). So, saving money to me has always been about security. I can't help myself. Growing up poor did that to me.
So maybe you don't have that motivation. What motivates you? I'm 44. At your age, I was just barely married and moved cross country to start a new career. But back up a couple of years (say, age 25), and I was working during the day, going to grad school at night, and playing in a LOT of volleyball leagues. You could sub some other kind physical goal.
When it comes to "privilege", it's good to recognize that you've had it, but don't let it stop you from life.
I found an interesting site this week:
http://static.fusion.net/lifetime_earnings/featuredcharts.html
Despite your privilege, you are still young. Hopefully things change, but as a woman, you aren't quite that privileged. As time goes on the gap simply widens (I wish it weren't true, but it simply IS, by and large). It's not a bad idea to get yourself nice and FI so you can weather changes.
The other advantages - if you have children, you can choose to stay home (or not). If you decide to take a year off to travel around the world at age 32, you can afford that. If you want to take 6 months off to learn yoga in Central America - you can do that too.
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Take a 3 week vacation somewhere you have never been before. Think about what you want in your life. You have done all the "right" things, and done them early. But you now are at the point to realize there is no "right" life. To have a great life, you have to decide what a great life is for you. I hope you figure this out in your 20's. I was much older before I really understood.
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I think you truly have a lot of emotional issues to work through, not the least of which is your relationship with your father and the overly strong desire not to be like your mother.
I think it is stopping you from understanding who you are and what makes you happy and may get in the way of close personal relationships.
I do recommend you take that 1000 a month and put it into some sort of intensive self-development/personal growth program - help yourself get to a better place so you can help others if that is what you want to do. I liked the Choices program myself - they hold it in Texas regularly. Probably lots of other good ones out there too.
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you?
As a privileged married white male (who was previously a single white male) I feel qualified to answer this question:
I try my best to be a good person.
As long as that requirement can be met there's nothing to feel guilt for. There's no moral imposition.
People in the world are starving. Americans grow food with the knowledge its way too much than can ever be consumed. Girls are sold into sex slavery and trafficked in OUR countries. My cell phone and computers were mostly assembled by someone who worked 12+ hours a day and that's not counting all the people who worked to get the material and the various environmental atrocities their employers committed while doing so. What is being a good person to you? How can you feel no guilt? I truly cannot comprehend.
Being a good person is doing what's possible to make the world a little less shitty.
I support groups that distribute food to the poor around the world. Dunno what would be possible to do to help the issue of sex slavery . . . but will have to look into that one. I don't own a cell phone, and assembled my own computer (the components were likely all soldered in sweatshops though) . . . that was seven years ago. I try to fight the slave labour issue by not being a mindless consumer . . . avoiding sweatshop stuff where it's possible by being conscious about what I'm buying and avoiding cheap crap. (These places do exist if you look for them, and they're not prohibitively expensive - I just researched and purchased some cycling specific clothing for winter commuting that's hand sewn by a guy in the US.)
As far as environmental impact, I've worked very hard to reduce mine by commuting to work by bike, powering our house with solar panels, growing our own vegetables and fruit during the summer months, not taking trips all around the world, insulating my house well, keeping the temperature warm in the winter and cool in the summer, being water conscious, turning off all electrical devices not in use, recycling and composting to reduce my waste, reusing things or mending them rather than replacing them, etc.
Granted . . . what I do isn't going to fix all the major problems on Earth . . . but it's what I have the ability to do. When I'm retired I'll have more time to devote to these causes. I sleep soundly at night knowing that I'm lucky, but with no guilt because I am doing my tiny part to make the world better.
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Hi all,
I dream of being in a position where I have more freedom to not work, but sometimes I feel it's an almost greedy wish. Basically I've lived a life where good birth circumstances, privilege and luck have all added up to make me extremely fortunate. I graduated high school before I was 18 with almost a year of college credit done in AP classes, I had an internship lined up with the government by my sophomore year of college, so at 19 I was employed in a "career". I spent the first year after graduation living at home with my parents, and bought a condo in in 2009.
And.... stopped reading right there. You earned it. Congratulations! Your birth doesn't make it any less outstanding that you stayed motivated and focused at a reasonably young age. Nor does it make the classes you took any less demanding or the path you choose to walk any easier.
For the record, you've got me beat :P
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Hi all,
I dream of being in a position where I have more freedom to not work, but sometimes I feel it's an almost greedy wish. Basically I've lived a life where good birth circumstances, privilege and luck have all added up to make me extremely fortunate. I graduated high school before I was 18 with almost a year of college credit done in AP classes, I had an internship lined up with the government by my sophomore year of college, so at 19 I was employed in a "career". I spent the first year after graduation living at home with my parents, and bought a condo in in 2009.
And.... stopped reading right there. You earned it. Congratulations! Your birth doesn't make it any less outstanding that you stayed motivated and focused at a reasonably young age. Nor does it make the classes you took any less demanding or the path you choose to walk any easier.
For the record, you've got me beat :P
Yes. Now it is all about getting rid of the "ressentiment". It manifests itself as guilt or victim mentality depending on the circumstances. The OP simply has run out of things to be justifiably resentful about and has entered the guilt stage. Nietzsche is the expert on this and should be consulted at this time.
Just a little philosophical confusion, that's all.
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I spend about $1000 more in all my other costs (gas, elect, internet, cell, insurance, monthly maid, groceries, quality cat food for one cat, and incidental shopping)
Yeah, it won't be just one for long
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you?
As a privileged married white male (who was previously a single white male) I feel qualified to answer this question:
I try my best to be a good person.
As long as that requirement can be met there's nothing to feel guilt for. There's no moral imposition.
People in the world are starving. Americans grow food with the knowledge its way too much than can ever be consumed. Girls are sold into sex slavery and trafficked in OUR countries. My cell phone and computers were mostly assembled by someone who worked 12+ hours a day and that's not counting all the people who worked to get the material and the various environmental atrocities their employers committed while doing so. What is being a good person to you? How can you feel no guilt? I truly cannot comprehend.
We live in an unfair world, there's no doubt about that. It's almost sickening at the micro level. But by and large the planet, for humans, is becoming a more fair place to live, albeit slowly. I take some solace from that notion.
Power in our culture is held disproportionately by white males, there's no doubt about that. But across the planet the power is wielded by those with money. Sure, we should continue to make strides to curb sexism and racism. But no nation on earth will ever offer each of it's citizens a truly equal opportunity until it adopts fiscal and monetary policy that treat money as the TAX CREDIT that it is. Citizens, and thus their government, must understand that money cannot be separated from the tax that it extinguishes or the law that governs them. They must recognize that money itself belongs to the group of people (sovereign nation) who choose to create it. If citizens and their government still act and talk (as we do in America) like money is some finite natural resource that is possessed by individuals (rather than the group), and therefor must be taxed away from them to do the work of the government, there is no hope for a society with equal opportunity.
Money in real life really isn't much more complicated than a game of monopoly. It baffles me that well-educated citizens, especially ones well versed in individual financial management, continue to mix the current reality of fiat money with the pre-1970s world of hard money. It can't be both ways. Either money should belong to us all, or it should belong to us individuals. It can't be both ways.
Most of us would see the inherent injustice in forcing a monopoly player to start out with no money while another player started the game with half of the assets on the board.
I agree that there is privilege-blindness all around us when it comes to race and gender in America. It's obvious in the aggregate, the way young white males flock to libertarian ideas. There are plenty of young white males, many on this forum, who have built fortunes by starting out with nothing. What they don't realize is the young black man or white woman in the same financial position, started with less than nothing!
But that inequality is but a drop in the bucket compared to the inequality between all of us starting with nothing or next to nothing and those with significant wealth at birth (or 18, however you look at it).
You don't have to abandon respect for private property rights or embrace communism to realize that when wealth can be amassed by individuals and passed to the next generation, equality of opportunity and obligation cannot be achieved.
If the idea of every citizen starting life with the same financial wealth offends you, then you probably don't fully grasp that money is a tax credit. Of course there's no way to prove it, but it's likely that: the more you are offended by this, the more privileged you are.
If you start replacing the word money with "tax credit" every time you think about anything concerning money, the world will make more sense. Why would someone want to hoard tax credits? Why would the group who issues tax credits allow one individual or small group to control large amounts of tax credits? It's common knowledge that taxes against the individual or the corporation or the economic activity in which they engage, serve to set the obligation of that individual or corporation to the rest of society (the group). But, it must follow that as tax credits are accumulated by an individual, the reverse obligation is created; an obligation from the group to the individual. As long as the government issuing the tax credits has the authority to collect the tax it's owed, those who owe tax will have a need to obtain tax credits and the value of money is maintained.
It's one thing for a system to allow a man to hoard enough tax credits in his lifetime that he can afford to pay the tax obligation of every other citizen in the group. After all, in a system where the law is fair and it's applied fairly, that man served his fellow citizens as well as himself by proving he was worthy of their tax credits. But it's another thing entirely for that man's son to come into the world with enough tax credits for thousands of lifetimes!
Whoa JohnHenry. There's great stuff here, I'm doing to look into this viewpoint more. Thank you very much for your thoughts and consideration. Yeah, the problem for me is MMM claims to be perfectly content on $24,000 and perfectly capable of earning that much between him and his wife for any given year, presumably to he is very old and frail. As long as he has his house, anything extra brings him no extra happiness or real security, since he is secure in his abilities and lifestyle. So why store the extra? It's more than he will ever need by his own admission.
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Um, what is this thread about exactly?
Signed,
Female who was once single yet my married life is more expensive than when I was single
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From the viewpoint of a single woman in her 40s (that's me in case it wasn't obvious):
FIRE is the ultimate FU to the old patriarchical system where a woman totally depended on a man to support her because she couldn’t support herself. By achieving FIRE, especially all on your own, you *ARE* the ultimate feminist. Embrace it.
Of course, it’s equally awesome for men to achieve FIRE. But just think about a few generations past, and it was almost impossible for a woman to do it all on her own. Instead of criticizing your possibility of achieving FIRE, revel in the fact that you can.
As far as finding meaning in your life with or without a job, that’s a whole other topic that applies to both genders. It generally requires self-reflection, meditation, prayer…whatever floats your boat.
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Yep, this thread is officially as weird as WestchesterFrugal. Congrats!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Also, since you mentioned you were Christian, reflect on the parable of the ten coins. I interpret it as us being called to use our talents wisely and not diminish their importance. If you are given the gift of money through your talents and circumstances, well then you are called to use them to pursue your faith. If you are so blessed to have the opportunity to make this money, do the best with it you can. You shouldn't hide your talents. Earn the money, FIRE when or if you want (or not at all)...whichever path you choose, use your money to help others and/or use your money to buy time to help others while FIREd.
http://graceandspace.org/welcome/home/365-days-with-the-lord/795-the-parable-of-the-ten-gold-coins-.html
Then, that needs to be balanced with this verse:
http://biblehub.com/matthew/6-19.htm
The way I interpret it all is that you should take advantage of the talents and opportunities provided to you. But don't obsess yourself with amassing a large amount if that's the only purpose for the amassing of money. Use your money to buy time in your life to do what you really feel called to do to help out humanity.
I think this totally falls in line with MMM's philosophy.
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Also, since you mentioned you were Christian, reflect on the parable of the ten coins. I interpret it as us being called to use our talents wisely and not diminish their importance. If you are given the gift of money through your talents and circumstances, well then you are called to use them to pursue your faith. If you are so blessed to have the opportunity to make this money, do the best with it you can. You shouldn't hide your talents. Earn the money, FIRE when or if you want (or not at all)...whichever path you choose, use your money to help others and/or use your money to buy time to help others while FIREd.
http://graceandspace.org/welcome/home/365-days-with-the-lord/795-the-parable-of-the-ten-gold-coins-.html
Then, that needs to be balanced with this verse:
http://biblehub.com/matthew/6-19.htm
The way I interpret it all is that you should take advantage of the talents and opportunities provided to you. But don't obsess yourself with amassing a large amount if that's the only purpose for the amassing of money. Use your money to buy time in your life to do what you really feel called to do to help out humanity.
I think this totally falls in line with MMM's philosophy.
She's catholic. So that doesn't cut it.
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Also, since you mentioned you were Christian, reflect on the parable of the ten coins. I interpret it as us being called to use our talents wisely and not diminish their importance. If you are given the gift of money through your talents and circumstances, well then you are called to use them to pursue your faith. If you are so blessed to have the opportunity to make this money, do the best with it you can. You shouldn't hide your talents. Earn the money, FIRE when or if you want (or not at all)...whichever path you choose, use your money to help others and/or use your money to buy time to help others while FIREd.
http://graceandspace.org/welcome/home/365-days-with-the-lord/795-the-parable-of-the-ten-gold-coins-.html
Then, that needs to be balanced with this verse:
http://biblehub.com/matthew/6-19.htm
The way I interpret it all is that you should take advantage of the talents and opportunities provided to you. But don't obsess yourself with amassing a large amount if that's the only purpose for the amassing of money. Use your money to buy time in your life to do what you really feel called to do to help out humanity.
I think this totally falls in line with MMM's philosophy.
She's catholic. So that doesn't cut it.
I'm not sure if I understand your comment. I assume it's a Catholic vs. Protestant thing - of which I have no interest in discussing. Think of the message here.
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Also, since you mentioned you were Christian, reflect on the parable of the ten coins. I interpret it as us being called to use our talents wisely and not diminish their importance. If you are given the gift of money through your talents and circumstances, well then you are called to use them to pursue your faith. If you are so blessed to have the opportunity to make this money, do the best with it you can. You shouldn't hide your talents. Earn the money, FIRE when or if you want (or not at all)...whichever path you choose, use your money to help others and/or use your money to buy time to help others while FIREd.
http://graceandspace.org/welcome/home/365-days-with-the-lord/795-the-parable-of-the-ten-gold-coins-.html
Then, that needs to be balanced with this verse:
http://biblehub.com/matthew/6-19.htm
The way I interpret it all is that you should take advantage of the talents and opportunities provided to you. But don't obsess yourself with amassing a large amount if that's the only purpose for the amassing of money. Use your money to buy time in your life to do what you really feel called to do to help out humanity.
I think this totally falls in line with MMM's philosophy.
She's catholic. So that doesn't cut it.
But aren't catholics the ones who believe in grace through works and not faith alone?
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I think it's funny that when you're pessimistic about things, life just seems in the way or irritating, but when you subscribe to optimism, there's not enough years in a person's life to possibly do everything that you want to
ah that's brill!
and you are right that this entire website is about "enough." Getting to "enough" and recognizing "enough." Not hoarding. Maybe the OP needs to hang around longer before making judgements.
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I spend about $1000 more in all my other costs (gas, elect, internet, cell, insurance, monthly maid, groceries, quality cat food for one cat, and incidental shopping)
Yeah, it won't be just one for long
Dammit Batman! I was drinking soda when i read that and it all blew out my nose!
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Yep, this thread is officially as weird as WestchesterFrugal. Congrats!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
That's a good one!
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I think it's funny that when you're pessimistic about things, life just seems in the way or irritating, but when you subscribe to optimism, there's not enough years in a person's life to possibly do everything that you want to
and you are right that this entire website is about "enough." Getting to "enough" and recognizing "enough." Not hoarding. Maybe the OP needs to hang around longer before making judgements.
Perhaps. But I've been reading this website since it was started as well as all of Jacobs ERE. This blog is about bringing your expenses so low that you have MORE than enough. I have "enough" on $2200 a month and yet I make $3200 a month. I have much much much much more than enough when compared to 90% of the women on this planet. MMM has "enough" just from his carpentry skills alone. These aren't judgments, these are things he readily admits to. He uses the system and the way its currently set up (stocks, tax advantage, marriage to Mrs. MMM who contributed as much as him) to save and "make his dollars work for him." Is it moral? You say yes, I am unconvinced, that's all. I like talking about it, I like hearing opinions, I'm impressed by his lifestyle. I am not a married white male with a child, so I think that gives me different motivations, perhaps you disagree.
I understand cutting your expenses and figuring out what it is you truly "need". I understand not seeking happiness in material wealth. I've largely attempted to do this when my head, heart, motivation are in the right place. It's the next step after that I'm struggling with. Consider this, MMM is happy. The money in his bank account has very little to do with that happiness. So why do it?
Due to my life/family circumstances, I am privileged enough to say that I am 99% sure I will never be homeless or starve. I've been educated. I can talk to people. I can get a job making above minimum wage. I can use the library to learn how to fish and hunt if it really came to that. I can call on my large extended family who I know would help me if I ever truly needed it. I could get married, despite the cat lady jokes I'm actually a catch. There's is absolutely nothing stopping me from quitting my job and selling my condo tomorrow if I wanted to. I have "enough", now what? This blog is about having more than enough and how to answer that question.
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Well as both a single female and a member of a minority group I guess I feel qualified to answer.
To me becoming FIRE is the ultimate form of feminism. What better way to honor the struggle of my predecessors than by becoming a self-sipufficient woman who isn't dependent on a man or my job or government assistance to take care of me?
The whole point of feminism, in my opinion, is to have a choice. Whether that's breaking through the glass ceiling to become CEO or staying at home to be a wife and mother....or simply stop working forever.
I will say, with regard to your last point, I do often find it frustrating to see couples especially with their dual income moving at twice the speed towards FIRE. Also, I'm pretty sure that my race and gender have affected my work situation in a negative way.
But I do reread a bit about men havin their own struggles with societal perception and not working, as well as couples who aren't on the same page financially, making it harder to live frugally. So everyone has their own struggle. Just focus on what you want and forget about everyone else.
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Well as both a single female and a member of a minority group I guess I feel qualified to answer.
To me becoming FIRE is the ultimate form of feminism. What better way to honor the struggle of my predecessors than by becoming a self-sipufficient woman who isn't dependent on a man or my job or government assistance to take care of me?
The whole point of feminism, in my opinion, is to have a choice. Whether that's breaking through the glass ceiling to become CEO or staying at home to be a wife and mother....or simply stop working forever.
I will say, with regard to your last point, I do often find it frustrating to see couples especially with their dual income moving at twice the speed towards FIRE. Also, I'm pretty sure that my race and gender have affected my work situation in a negative way.
But I do reread a bit about men havin their own struggles with societal perception and not working, as well as couples who aren't on the same page financially, making it harder to live frugally. So everyone has their own struggle. Just focus on what you want and forget about everyone else.
hmmm. I guess so, here's where I'm struggling. Am I not a self-sufficient woman now already? Because I have a job? I'm employed by the government, should I consider this un-feminist? In order to not be employed, I need somewhere safe to store my money that will reliably give me returns, which depends largely on huge corporations. So is that un-feminist?
It's not about what other people think. It's about what I think of myself and I'm not sure I know it yet. Apparently to some people that means I need therapy. I like questioning it all though, I am not mentally ill because of it. I can be motivated to not be financially like my mother or grandmother.
I'm just not sure FI is the ultimate form of feminism. It feels semi-self indulgent. Obviously I'm on my way toward that and I admire it, I'm not trying to sound judgmental. I just haven't decided. What if the ultimate FU is saying no completely to it all? Is that the only way? What are the ways for me to use my money to reject the patriarchal system? If I even figured that out, it is it a dumb idea because it means I'm not using the system as it exists today to take care of myself to the best of my ability?
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Well as both a single female and a member of a minority group I guess I feel qualified to answer.
To me becoming FIRE is the ultimate form of feminism. What better way to honor the struggle of my predecessors than by becoming a self-sipufficient woman who isn't dependent on a man or my job or government assistance to take care of me?
The whole point of feminism, in my opinion, is to have a choice. Whether that's breaking through the glass ceiling to become CEO or staying at home to be a wife and mother....or simply stop working forever.
I will say, with regard to your last point, I do often find it frustrating to see couples especially with their dual income moving at twice the speed towards FIRE. Also, I'm pretty sure that my race and gender have affected my work situation in a negative way.
But I do reread a bit about men havin their own struggles with societal perception and not working, as well as couples who aren't on the same page financially, making it harder to live frugally. So everyone has their own struggle. Just focus on what you want and forget about everyone else.
hmmm. I guess so, here's where I'm struggling. Am I not a self-sufficient woman now already? Because I have a job? I'm employed by the government, should I consider this un-feminist? In order to not be employed, I need somewhere safe to store my money, which depends largely on huge corporations. So is that un-feminist?
It's not about what other people think. It's about what I think of myself and I'm not sure I know it yet. Apparently to some people that means I need therapy. I like questioning it all though, I am not mentally ill because of it. I can be motivated to not be financially like my mother or grandmother.
I'm just not sure FI is the ultimate form of feminism. It feels semi-self indulgent. Obviously I'm on my way toward that and I admire it, I'm not trying to sound judgmental. I just haven't decided. What if the ultimate FU is saying no completely to it all? Is that the only way? What are the ways for me to use my money to reject the patriarchal system? If I even figured that out, it is it a dumb idea because it means I'm not using the system as it exists today to take care of myself to the best of my ability?
Sorry for the typos, I'm on my ipad.
I won't try to psychoanalyze you as some others have felt free to do.
As for the feminist portion, like I stated, it's purely about choice and having equal access to making that choice that men do. I'm not sure I'm the expert on how to fight a patriarchal system, but I think showing that men and women aren't so different after all is a great start. This may mean less pointing out to men (and married) people how much better off they are and more bettering yourself to prove to yourself you are capable.
The fact is, you are always going to have to deal with the system (which is probably for the moment going to be patriarchal) unless you want to basically not exist. Even homeless people depend on handouts that trickle down from corporations and government. So just ignore that part and work on making those entities less patriarchal.
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Well as both a single female and a member of a minority group I guess I feel qualified to answer.
To me becoming FIRE is the ultimate form of feminism. What better way to honor the struggle of my predecessors than by becoming a self-sipufficient woman who isn't dependent on a man or my job or government assistance to take care of me?
The whole point of feminism, in my opinion, is to have a choice. Whether that's breaking through the glass ceiling to become CEO or staying at home to be a wife and mother....or simply stop working forever.
I will say, with regard to your last point, I do often find it frustrating to see couples especially with their dual income moving at twice the speed towards FIRE. Also, I'm pretty sure that my race and gender have affected my work situation in a negative way.
But I do reread a bit about men havin their own struggles with societal perception and not working, as well as couples who aren't on the same page financially, making it harder to live frugally. So everyone has their own struggle. Just focus on what you want and forget about everyone else.
hmmm. I guess so, here's where I'm struggling. Am I not a self-sufficient woman now already? Because I have a job? I'm employed by the government, should I consider this un-feminist? In order to not be employed, I need somewhere safe to store my money, which depends largely on huge corporations. So is that un-feminist?
It's not about what other people think. It's about what I think of myself and I'm not sure I know it yet. Apparently to some people that means I need therapy. I like questioning it all though, I am not mentally ill because of it. I can be motivated to not be financially like my mother or grandmother.
I'm just not sure FI is the ultimate form of feminism. It feels semi-self indulgent. Obviously I'm on my way toward that and I admire it, I'm not trying to sound judgmental. I just haven't decided. What if the ultimate FU is saying no completely to it all? Is that the only way? What are the ways for me to use my money to reject the patriarchal system? If I even figured that out, it is it a dumb idea because it means I'm not using the system as it exists today to take care of myself to the best of my ability?
Sorry for the typos, I'm on my ipad.
I won't try to psychoanalyze you as some others have felt free to do.
As for the feminist portion, like I stated, it's purely about choice and having equal access to making that choice that men do. I'm not sure I'm the expert on how to fight a patriarchal system, but I think showing that men and women aren't so different after all is a great start. This may mean less pointing out to men (and married) people how much better off they are and more bettering yourself to prove to yourself you are capable.
The fact is, you are always going to have to deal with the system (which is probably for the moment going to be patriarchal) unless you want to basically not exist. Even homeless people depend on handouts that trickle down from corporations and government. So just ignore that part and work on making those entities less patriarchal.
Thank you for your thoughts. I've agreed up to this point in my life. I live and work in the system. I have an extra thousand bucks that I don't actually give a shit about, and I was trying to find motivation to why I should care more about saving it for myself. The answer, well, that's just the way it is, it's not enough for me anymore.
My original post pointed out my own privilege and asked other privileged groups how they deal with the privilege they've been given. I thought it was clear that I know I am well off, but I guess it didn't come through. I demonstrated that I am capable of taking care of myself. I am not a victim.
I am entirely the product of government handouts. I was raised by a military father (who was raised by a military father, whos parent's immigrated here when this country actually welcomed the tired/poor/broken hearted), had an entirely public education, and I now work for the government. There is no escaping the system, I get that.
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I'm not really asking for a case study break down of my expenses, more of a kick in the pants. I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back?
I'm going to take a stab at really answering your original request, which will be the kick in your pants per your request:
1) I believe you lack pride and a sense of fulfillment in your work. You obviously had something that motivated you to work really hard for the academic achievements, but you likely do not have a job that gives you this (I saw in a post that you worked for government, but this post isn't exclusively a problem with government). In my line of work, we hire tons of high achievers out of college who decide this career isn't for them. Its lots of numbers and back office work and you rarely see the front line impact of the good work we do. It happens and those employees make changes.
Children are told in society go do well in school, get into college, work really hard, then get a good paying stable job with corporation or government. That ain't for everybody, then a lot of people get trapped in their lifestyle expenses and can't choose something different.
2) Consider what you can do with your education (and perhaps other training), and go learn a skill that you can sell to individuals. Especially a skill you can sell as an independent or through a small business and not working for government or a corporation. There are many skilled trades that are short on people and pay very well for that skill (I live in the south, there is always a shortage of HVAC techs that get paid very well to do noble work for families). I also really respected the middle aged gentlemen who put in hardwood floors in my kitchen, he'd been doing it for 20 years and I don't know if anything gave him more pride than watching his work come together, it was like art to him. You need to find whats right for you.
3) Do you want financial independence and to save money? It sounds like you have an underlying belief about big corporations/banks where you would save your money. That's fine, I've known many millionaires with the same belief, they tend to be landlords who buy 5-10 rental houses, pay them off, then live off the rental income.
Remember - we are all born with natural advantages and disadvantages. I was born in the United States, but that should I have that personal guilt weighing me down every day? All of us born in 1st world countries with access to education and economic opportunity have a massive advantage over someone born into poverty in Asia, Africa, or South America. A racial majority male in those areas will live a much worse life than anyone in a 1st world country. I think when you look at it in that perspective, all the other "disadvantages" seem like small stuff.
Your life going forward will be about the series of choices you make.
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I'm not really asking for a case study break down of my expenses, more of a kick in the pants. I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back?
I'm going to take a stab at really answering your original request, which will be the kick in your pants per your request:
1) I believe you lack pride and a sense of fulfillment in your work. You obviously had something that motivated you to work really hard for the academic achievements, but you likely do not have a job that gives you this (I saw in a post that you worked for government, but this post isn't exclusively a problem with government). In my line of work, we hire tons of high achievers out of college who decide this career isn't for them. Its lots of numbers and back office work and you rarely see the front line impact of the good work we do. It happens and those employees make changes.
Children are told in society go do well in school, get into college, work really hard, then get a good paying stable job with corporation or government. That ain't for everybody, then a lot of people get trapped in their lifestyle expenses and can't choose something different.
2) Consider what you can do with your education (and perhaps other training), and go learn a skill that you can sell to individuals. Especially a skill you can sell as an independent or through a small business and not working for government or a corporation. There are many skilled trades that are short on people and pay very well for that skill (I live in the south, there is always a shortage of HVAC techs that get paid very well to do noble work for families). I also really respected the middle aged gentlemen who put in hardwood floors in my kitchen, he'd been doing it for 20 years and I don't know if anything gave him more pride than watching his work come together, it was like art to him. You need to find whats right for you.
3) Do you want financial independence and to save money? It sounds like you have an underlying belief about big corporations/banks where you would save your money. That's fine, I've known many millionaires with the same belief, they tend to be landlords who buy 5-10 rental houses, pay them off, then live off the rental income.
Remember - we are all born with natural advantages and disadvantages. I was born in the United States, but that should I have that personal guilt weighing me down every day? All of us born in 1st world countries with access to education and economic opportunity have a massive advantage over someone born into poverty in Asia, Africa, or South America. A racial majority male in those areas will live a much worse life than anyone in a 1st world country. I think when you look at it in that perspective, all the other "disadvantages" seem like small stuff.
Your life going forward will be about the series of choices you make.
Thank you for your consideration. I'm of a lucky few who actually does "make" things for the government. I'm a cartographer. I could freelance and sell maps, taxpayers are getting my work for a bargain and they don't realize it. Even as a contractor I could make 30-40k more. I do cool stuff and I take pride in it. Does it mean I jump out of bed every day to go make a map? no.
I think you are right about real estate. I live in an area where it's not economically viable. Even my condo, I could rent for a about $1600, my expenses are $1200 a month, but its worth $190,000 so it doesnt meet the 4% rule.
Basically, to do what you're saying, I have to quit my job and move. I think I know this. I think thats what I want. Thanks for the kick, but I've got to get over the hump of feeling like, "well what makes me so special to leave all this". I think I will get there.
And by oinkettes logic above, I should probably actually stay within the government in order to ensure my gender remains represented. (I'm already the only woman on 6 person team) So maybe you can see why I am struggling with a the decision. Thanks again.
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Is there a reason you can only do your specific government job at your current location? Are you good enough at it where they would hire you as an independent contractor if you left? All I'm trying to say is drop be belief that you're trapped.
btw, on the landlording comment in big cities:
Urban areas are more challenging to pursue the land lording option, but don't make that stop you. I also lived in one of the 10 largest MSAs in the US and knew plenty of small time landlords. They tended to either go way out into the suburbs, buy in redevelopment areas, or buy condos/townhomes.
Your condo numbers actually aren't bad, you look for house price divided by monthly rent. 100 is a rule of thumb, when rates are low you sometimes have to go up to 110 or 120, when real estate is busting, you can sometimes get property for under 100 times monthly rent.
The 4% rule is for market investments. For rentals, you tend to clear 60-70% of gross rent after non-financing expenses. If you had four of your condos bought, paid for, and rented, you'd bring in $6400/mo. Estimating expenses at 35% of rent, that leaves you $4,160/mo to live on. Those 35% of expenses include taxes, insurance, and reserves for vacancies/repairs.
There are lots of well off folks who don't trust the banks/stock market/government that go this route.
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Is there a reason you can only do your specific government job at your current location? Are you good enough at it where they would hire you as an independent contractor if you left? All I'm trying to say is drop be belief that you're trapped.
btw, on the landlording comment in big cities:
Urban areas are more challenging to pursue the land lording option, but don't make that stop you. I also lived in one of the 10 largest MSAs in the US and knew plenty of small time landlords. They tended to either go way out into the suburbs, buy in redevelopment areas, or buy condos/townhomes.
Your condo numbers actually aren't bad, you look for house price divided by monthly rent. 100 is a rule of thumb, when rates are low you sometimes have to go up to 110 or 120, when real estate is busting, you can sometimes get property for under 100 times monthly rent.
The 4% rule is for market investments. For rentals, you tend to clear 60-70% of gross rent after non-financing expenses. If you had four of your condos bought, paid for, and rented, you'd bring in $6400/mo. Estimating expenses at 35% of rent, that leaves you $4,160/mo to live on. Those 35% of expenses include taxes, insurance, and reserves for vacancies/repairs.
There are lots of well off folks who don't trust the banks/stock market/government that go this route.
Interesting. I've considered buying land way out and trying to homestead/freelance from there. Perhaps I should start with a few more properties like my condo first. Interesting thought. I got pretty lucky though, its not 2009 anymore :)
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I'm not really asking for a case study break down of my expenses, more of a kick in the pants. I'd love to hear some motivation and inspiration from single women and other historically disadvantaged groups who've made FI work for them. How can I get this guilt off my back?
I'm going to take a stab at really answering your original request, which will be the kick in your pants per your request:
You obviously had something that motivated you to work really hard for the academic achievements, but you likely do not have a job that gives you this
Also, this is funny. My motivation for school/work/saving has always been to take care of myself and not have to rely on my father or a man to do it for me. I've seen first hand what can happen to your self-esteem and control over your decisions when you do that. I guess some people thing that means I'm deeply troubled or something. It doesn't take much of witnessing a family member abuse their power over someone to come to this conclusion though. I'm always surprised at how few men (and even woman) can understand this.
(this isn't a criticism of you, only what I've dealt with and witnessed and been motivated by) SO here I am, free! Taking care of myself, now what?
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I actually completely understand that.
I have experienced both family and an early boss exerting excessive control over me (this happens to men too). I quickly decided I was going to become exponentially educated about money to avoid ever having that situation happen again. After that, everything led back to simple math: spend a heck of a lot less than you earn, then take that excess money and let it generate a passive income.
I am also "trapped" in a profession, I make a very good income, but I can only perform my skill to companies in that industry. The feeling of being "trapped" has slowly subsided as I get closer and closer to having enough walk away money. I had similar professional feelings at 27 as you're having. (32 now)
My choice was to grind it out in my job and know I can walk away very comfortably at 35. They could can me today and I'd be okay.
Ironically, once I got past the point of feeling trapped, I started enjoying my actual job a lot more.
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I too know a bit about where you are coming from. At an early age, I knew that my biggest ambitions in life would be to be independent and not to be poor. That has stayed true into my 50s: hard lessons learnt young do stay with you.
I am now financially independent, and do not live under anyone else's direction. You too say you are free, but I think MMM (you could consider writing to him asking for a case study) would say that you are not yet free because you are not yet financially independent. Having more money coming in than going out is good, but it is not financial independence.
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Thanks for your patience. Let me just take my feminist bit one step farther. I know men suffer under exertions of power. People everywhere do and this is sad. The point is, as a (I'm assuming) straight, white, american, male, you have infinite choices on how to make sure it doesn't happen to you. In fact, if you show the proper initiative, society will make sure you actually become one of the ones with the power.
It is possible (maybe a crackpot idea, but still possible) that by saving a large sum of money, you are doing exactly that.
See the SAHD post on this forum. He tried to quit and they offered him a management position! What are the chances that would happen to woman who wanted to stay home with her baby?
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I'm still not sure if this is a genuine thread (!) but I can understand how having enough money and therefore more choices can feel empowering for both women and men. My mother was left as a single parent on welfare after her divorce and I think that has made me feel insecure about money throughout my life.
I do rely on my husband but then he relies on me too as it's a partnership and we have been together for over two decades.
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Also, since you mentioned you were Christian, reflect on the parable of the ten coins. I interpret it as us being called to use our talents wisely and not diminish their importance. If you are given the gift of money through your talents and circumstances, well then you are called to use them to pursue your faith. If you are so blessed to have the opportunity to make this money, do the best with it you can. You shouldn't hide your talents. Earn the money, FIRE when or if you want (or not at all)...whichever path you choose, use your money to help others and/or use your money to buy time to help others while FIREd.
http://graceandspace.org/welcome/home/365-days-with-the-lord/795-the-parable-of-the-ten-gold-coins-.html
Then, that needs to be balanced with this verse:
http://biblehub.com/matthew/6-19.htm
The way I interpret it all is that you should take advantage of the talents and opportunities provided to you. But don't obsess yourself with amassing a large amount if that's the only purpose for the amassing of money. Use your money to buy time in your life to do what you really feel called to do to help out humanity.
I think this totally falls in line with MMM's philosophy.
She's catholic. So that doesn't cut it.
But aren't catholics the ones who believe in grace through works and not faith alone?
That may be true but the point is that scripture in itself does not have authority for Catholics.
Practically speaking, it is not very productive to use scripture quotes when debating with a catholic.
In any case, the OP doesn't appear to have an issue relating to faith or religion but does have a spiritual issue.
The more one is mired in a dependent or oppressive situation the more natural an identity based upon "ressentiment" is developed and maintained. This externalization of blame and the identity constructed around it (complainypants identity) is effortlessly maintained as long as the disadvantaged state persists. Once a position of emancipation is reached, such as FI, political power etc, that identity is threatened. It is a sort of identity/existential crisis when that transition happens and as these crises go, they are fundamentally about loss.
Although, the philosophical influences most often mentioned by MMM are from stoic and epicurean philosophies, one can also look at the transition from a complainypants identity to an identity based upon autonomy and emancipation from an existentialist perspective. And there, the role of "ressentiment" or, as Sartre called it, bad faith in maintaining the complainypants syndrome becomes prominent. A Mustachian does not have an identity build around ressentiment or bad faith or a perception of powerlessness. In all of this, money and financial independence are just one aspect of wrestling power away from those that wield it, in the process acquiring more power over one's destiny oneself. The other, and one could argue, even more important aspect for already relatively well off middle class people is the unmasking of the shackles societal convention has placed on the individual as being largely illusionary.
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Thanks for your patience. Let me just take my feminist bit one step farther. I know men suffer under exertions of power. People everywhere do and this is sad. The point is, as a (I'm assuming) straight, white, american, male, you have infinite choices on how to make sure it doesn't happen to you. In fact, if you show the proper initiative, society will make sure you actually become one of the ones with the power.
It is possible (maybe a crackpot idea, but still possible) that by saving a large sum of money, you are doing exactly that.
Yes, we are doing exactly that. And you can do it too.
On the other hand, accepting injustice in the world is not a condition one has to accept in order to pursue power over one's destiny. I would argue that the acquisition of power is the condition for effecting change. I would also argue that, in your particular case, achieving FI would result in you being able to more effectively bring about change at work and elsewhere which again is nothing else than an increase in your power.
There is no conspiracy of "people in power" or particular requirements one has to meet to join the club. Power is power and can be used as one sees fit - and no you do not become one of Them by acquiring power, you become one they have to reckon with and that is an entirely different kettle of fish.
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Thanks for your patience. Let me just take my feminist bit one step farther. I know men suffer under exertions of power. People everywhere do and this is sad. The point is, as a (I'm assuming) straight, white, american, male, you have infinite choices on how to make sure it doesn't happen to you. In fact, if you show the proper initiative, society will make sure you actually become one of the ones with the power.
It is possible (maybe a crackpot idea, but still possible) that by saving a large sum of money, you are doing exactly that.
See the SAHD post on this forum. He tried to quit and they offered him a management position! What are the chances that would happen to woman who wanted to stay home with her baby?
It happened to me when I quit to stay home, although it was when my kids were a bit older. I don't think it is unusual for women or men to be offered incentives to stay if they are good employees.
As an employer now I would offer flexible working conditions to either parent where possible. There are many people who work from home these days a good part of the time and technology makes it possible.
I do agree that young women might have a harder time getting a senior position if they are viewed by the employer as likely to leave to care for children. And you know what, maybe that is realistic in many cases. Workplaces should be assist parents as much as possible, but senior managers often need to be full-time. Training and staffing and filling in is a real expense for an employer and how flexible you can be depends on your profit margin. Government can be more flexible as their budget is tax-based, not net profit based.
Maybe it is time to acknowledge that having children means that you may not get the senior job and that our workplaces should accommodate families, but they need to be viable. The only way to continue to make changes is to have legislation requiring certain measures be in place that apply to all employers or there will be an issue with competitiveness when costs go up for some and not others.
And maybe getting the senior job is not all it is cracked up to be. In my opinion, the people who are the most privileged that I know are the parents who get to stay home with their children.
I think we are at the point where gender/orientation/class/race should be acknowledged as factors, but those of us who are not in whatever you view as the top group have enough options and upward mobility available to achieve what we want based on ability and aptitude, even if it is a bit harder sometimes. In Canada there are now more female medical school and law school students than males.
I appreciate the advocates and agree there is more work to be done in, for example, encouraging women in fields like engineering and political positions and longevity in high stress fields like law, but I recognize that we do have upward mobility and the limitations aren't what they used to be.
And those that are so "privileged" - there is no guarantee that this leads to happiness and I'm not sure why having power is so important when you can have autonomy rather easily.
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...Also, this is funny. My motivation for school/work/saving has always been to take care of myself and not have to rely on my father or a man to do it for me. I've seen first hand what can happen to your self-esteem and control over your decisions when you do that. I guess some people thing that means I'm deeply troubled or something. It doesn't take much of witnessing a family member abuse their power over someone to come to this conclusion though. I'm always surprised at how few men (and even woman) can understand this. ...
bolding mine.
Stop placing strawman arguments on the back of others. No one here intimated you are "deeply troubled" by working toward financial independence. If you have a f*cked up family of origin who whispers in your ear, that's them, not us.
I am easily old enough to be your mother and I am married and yet am perfectly capable of taking care of myself financially, in fact, I make 2 - 3X the salary that my husband makes. And my mother (would be your grandmother's age) made it clear that I need to know how to financially take care of myself and she could take care of herself, too. Same for her grandmother.
As the upthread guy said, find your joy, maybe in your paid work or maybe elsewhere. Look inwards and find a passion to follow. That's you life work, and get enough of an income stream to reliably support it. That's "enough."
I think one of the problems here is that you are defining "enough" differently from me. That the MMM guy works, at the moment, is his choice. You think his carpenter skills bring in "enough" but FIRE is about NOT working for cash money if one has a passion that doesn't bring in cash money. If the MMM guy had a passion for feeding stray dogs throughout his county, that's not a money making endeavor. He would need a source of income to support him as he follows his passion.
You aren't thinking of financial assets in the practical, as in how quickly they can be depleted in situations such as a stock market plunge, or a divorce, or birth of a severely handicapped child, or sudden debilitating adult onset health crises of long duration. It's not on your radar because of you age, and I get that. To you I would be a "horder" for savings for these emergencies, but to me, I'm prudent. All of the insurance in the world doesn't cover the situations I named, and Nanny G's handouts in these situations range from barely adequate to paltry, and it seems irresponsible of me to count on Gubmnt help when I have other options.
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Totoro, I think the explanation is easier than that: We constantly trade time for money in life. Those senior positions require so many hours to be out in, people reach a certain point in their career and start choosing time over money.
Many mid-level execs also marry people of similar talent and intelligence and eventually get to an income level where it's no longer worth the sacrifices.
One interesting note, I believe a highly progressive tax system is one of the main issues holding down the careers of working parents. If a working mom/dad can only keep 50% of their income because they married another high achiever, then it provides less incentive to work, especially if paid child care comes into play.
It's unfortunate that it's less socially acceptable for a dad to stay at home, but in think that trend is changing post 2009.
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Just a few thoughts after reading the thread. Not doing psychoanalysis here, but the key words guilt, system and trapped struck a chord. I'll sketch how I deal with this, so, although worded in an imperative way, It's really just a personal description:
Guilt is nothing bad. It serves a purpose. It reminds you that something doesn't fit your value system. The proper response is either to act, or to accept, and then to stop feeling guilty.
- If you can realistically do something, even small, about the situation which makes you feel guilty, take action to work on changing it. Change often cannot be brought about in short time, can fail, etc. -- but you're doing the best you can, accept that (i.e. don't feel guilty that you can't change the world in one day). With brings us to acceptance:
- As for the guilt whose reasons lie outside your circle of influence, like your past or your ancestors: If you can't change it, you should try to learn to accept it. What good is feeling guilty about things you can't change? It doesn't help anyone, and it certainly doesn't make you a better person. Learning to accept, on the other hand, means learning to be humble, to take yourself less seriously, in a Pope John XXIII way. :)
Guilt is not a virtue in itself. Same goes for anger, resentment, worry. They serve a (transient) purpose, they must be dealt with, then let go.
When hearing second term, system, my typical quip is that this word is usually being uttered when someone wants to make excuses for avoiding to take action (I'm not saying that this is the case for a particular forum member, but, well, just saying, in general). That's because "system" is about the most non-actionable problem description you might be able to come up with! Break it down -- you will almost certainly find aspects where you are able to influence things for the better. And accept that you can't change the rest, for now (see above :) ).
The third key word, trapped to me is a shorthand for "not willing to make a choice." I, too, sometimes have the feeling of being trapped, in my job, with my mortgage, etc. When I catch myself fretting about this, I ask myself "what would be the alternative," and when I start to think about the alternatives in a systematic way, considering what's important for me, I find out whether I should actually change something, and what can be changed (see "system," above). Mostly, I eventually find out that I actually am in a pretty optimal spot. But sometimes, I find out what I do in fact want to change and what I want to give up. Note the terminology: I don't say "what I have to (or even must) give up." - but what I want to give up. In the end, I want something, so I also want to do what's necessary (i.e. I don't want to eat the cake if I want to have it). Thinking about "wants" instead of "have tos" makes a lot of difference emotionally and motivationally. I don't have any more excuses to be vaguely dissatisfied with my situation.
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Hiya icky. This conversation has been interesting to read. I empathize with your internal struggles and believe that wrestling with understanding theses emotions and questions of value will make your life more meaningful in the long run, no matter what you decide about your $1000 dollars of possible investment.
I was once 27 and completely mired in similar questions to yours and I found my own (every-evolving) answers and think you will too.
I'm 48 now and a SAHM who considers herself "semi-retired" because the time I spend "doing for others" (which some people call work or volunteering) is in line with my values, and although there is no way my small life can solve all the problems I see in the world, I understand how my actions can solve some of my local unpleasantness and thus increase the overall good. I have also worked to build independent assets which could support me if needed.
For me, contentment and satisfaction were (and are) found by getting out of my intellectual understanding of the world and rubbing shoulders with as many people as I could who were in different life situations from me. Having a nest egg that is "more than I need" gives me comfort and will get donated to good causes after my death so I feel no more guilt. And as I near the magical age of 50 I am more curious than ever about the world, but less worried about what the world thinks of me.
I wish you joy, humor and flexibility in your hunt for meaning!
(addendum: Blackadder posted as I was posting mine so I didn't see it. I concur with the focus on choice and action. Therein lies deep wisdom.)
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I understand cutting your expenses and figuring out what it is you truly "need". I understand not seeking happiness in material wealth. I've largely attempted to do this when my head, heart, motivation are in the right place. It's the next step after that I'm struggling with. Consider this, MMM is happy. The money in his bank account has very little to do with that happiness. So why do it?
You do it because money gives you options. Options, for me, are essential to a happy life.
I worked for The Man and loved my jobs until about 3 years ago. Then there was one horrible stretch. Then it got fun again for about 18 months. Now--I am done. I have plenty of FU money, now I'm not working for the money, I'm working to complete chitloads of crap that should have been done at my workplace for the past decade (no fault of mine.) I don't want to leave my successor with this stupid stuff.
I would say that, reading your description of your life, you don't have many options. You have to punch a time clock every day. 8+ hours of your day don't belong to you, you own only 2/3 of your day, and much of that time is sleeping.
Money is often referred to here as the FU fund.
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I understand cutting your expenses and figuring out what it is you truly "need". I understand not seeking happiness in material wealth. I've largely attempted to do this when my head, heart, motivation are in the right place. It's the next step after that I'm struggling with. Consider this, MMM is happy. The money in his bank account has very little to do with that happiness. So why do it?
You do it because money gives you options. Options, for me, are essential to a happy life.
I worked for The Man and loved my jobs until about 3 years ago. Then there was one horrible stretch. Then it got fun again for about 18 months. Now--I am done. I have plenty of FU money, now I'm not working for the money, I'm working to complete chitloads of crap that should have been done at my workplace for the past decade (no fault of mine.) I don't want to leave my successor with this stupid stuff.
I would say that, reading your description of your life, you don't have many options. You have to punch a time clock every day. 8+ hours of your day don't belong to you, you own only 2/3 of your day, and much of that time is sleeping.
Money is often referred to here as the FU fund.
Money is just a tool. It shouldn't be idolized. It's a tool to get what you need from society (food, shelter, etc.). It's the love of money (greed) that should be avoided.
I liken your concerns with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It sounds lke you've got your physiological and safety needs covered. Now it's time to focus your energies on the self-actualization levels. I actually think achieving FIRE speeds this whole process up because you have less need to focus on survival and have the time and energy away from a forced work situation to focus on your self actualization.
I think your postings here are very useful. It sounds like you really want to create a meaningful life and your views are appreciated. It's a journey we are all on in this life.
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Back to your original question : "Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? "
A part of having privilege is not having to reconcile anything because you believe you deserve it. Your hypothetical privileged marrieds and single white males don't feel guilt, therefore, the feminist response is to not feel guilt either.
I agree with the other posters that you don't have enough yet, and MMM did not "hoard" more than enough. He could've kept going and started hoarding money for the sake of it, but he chose not too. He has said that he probably could have been happy without all the money, and just been a carpenter from the beginning, but it took him amassing riches before he realized that.
As for feeling guilty about investing how about investing in bonds instead of the stock market? I also recommend "Feeling Good" which helps you get control of your thoughts. Maybe "Millionaire next door" will help you too.
Personally I am a nihilist. I don't believe in inherent good or bad on our planet. We are just a bunch of animals who are figuring out as we go. I also see guilt as the ultimate patriarchal oppressor. The patriarchy doesn't even need to do anything to you, you make yourself feel bad! Free yourself of this guilt and live your truth. I also don't like your blanket statements about suffering. Who are you to say that the lives of other people in the world are terrible? There is happiness everywhere. Even if it doesn't look like what you assume it should.
The idea of FIRE is very American centric. From what I've read about other peoples lived experiences in other countries, FIRE is unnecessary (for most) because the government provides enough. I want to be FIRE so I can spend time with a child. There are other countries where you don't have to make that compromise because paid paternal leave and paid time off are a given. How about this question to that hypothetical person: How do you morally reconcile that fact that you don't need FIRE in your country because of the privilege of living in (insert Nordic country here) affords you. Do you even care about us poor suffering Americans!!!
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FI is insulation from outside manipulation. It helps to counter the moral hazards associated with being completely dependent on capitalistic activity to sustain life and comfort. After FI, your values (and the way you live them) are less subject to subversion from powers above. We all get that. I think you're pointing out something we also miss: FI can also be insulation from the concerns of the minority and poor and otherwise less-powerful. If you want to perceive and act on truths about our social and economic realities, FI can be a double-edged sword. Thank-you for pointing this out.
So you're trying to decide if FI would do you more harm or good? We'd have to know you very well to be helpful. You need more close, real-life friends to help you. This should be your focus now; this is the need you're discovering now that you've filled more-pressing needs.
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Totoro, I think the explanation is easier than that: We constantly trade time for money in life. Those senior positions require so many hours to be out in, people reach a certain point in their career and start choosing time over money.
Many mid-level execs also marry people of similar talent and intelligence and eventually get to an income level where it's no longer worth the sacrifices.
One interesting note, I believe a highly progressive tax system is one of the main issues holding down the careers of working parents. If a working mom/dad can only keep 50% of their income because they married another high achiever, then it provides less incentive to work, especially if paid child care comes into play.
It's unfortunate that it's less socially acceptable for a dad to stay at home, but in think that trend is changing post 2009.
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Yep, agree with all that. Money only matters to a point.
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FI is insulation from outside manipulation. It helps to counter the moral hazards associated with being completely dependent on capitalistic activity to sustain life and comfort.
Yes, but every penny MMM has in the S&P 500 and the returns he expects to make from it is completely dependent on capitalist society. It's what he recommends everyone do with their extra cash if they've got their debts paid down, retirement saving set, and expenses cut. He even says things like, "this is your chance to bath in a pool of wealth." I realize he's half joking, but also, he kinda isn't. People on here are saying FI gives you autonomy. What if I don't believe anyone is autonomous, especially Americans? Many males I have encountered seem to operate under this belief, as though everything they have has been rightfully "earned" and no one controls them. I don't know how to achieve that security of thought.
Is the ultimate FU really to walk away with the knowledge my bank account is full? No one cares if I'm FI. No one cares if I move to Uruguay and study yoga. I don't think there's any FU in that. I'm not saying FU by showing up to my job each day either. But as I said before, I'm the only woman on a 6 person team. Are the stakes different for me?
Insulation from outside manipulation - yes its good, but I'm not being manipulated by anyone right now. Getting educated and becoming employed has granted me insulation from outside manipulation. I don't necessarily view my job as manipulation. When viewed from some feminist perspectives, having a job has granted me a freedom that has largely been unavailable to 50% of the world. As I said before, worst case I can walk away and go work on a farm or something. I know I could pull in enough money to take care of myself and have freedom of movement and spending (since I have low costs and low responsibilities). Putin is also building insulation from outside manipulation. How far do you take it?
I do believe protecting your own self-interest is fine as long as you're not harming anyone else. I like the arguments that perhaps its possible to do an overall net benefit. I also like the idea of making sure it will all be given away once I die. Thank you to those who made these suggestions.
Good point about the friends.They're are lost as me :) They like to talk about it sometimes I guess, but who can really say? It can be awkward to talk to my friends about money when I have more than then and want to talk about having even more and walking away from it all. The forums are a place to talk about money and how and why to save it. It shouldn't actually have anything to do with what kind of person I am.
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"completely dependent on capitalist society."
Not necessarily true. You can invest in a socialist society by buying shares in a German company or say buying shares in Citgo or Valero (Venezuelan state owned gas company). Heck why not buy all your goods from a communist country? Oh wait, almost everything we buy is made in China. The world is a much more complicated place than you think.
You could invest in a time bank, real estate, bonds, a group of people who can take care of you, but the most stable long term place to put money is the stock market. It's been around since the dutch invented 400 years ago.
Are you uncomfortable with the idea that humans buy and sell goods? Do you have a problem with fiat money? MMM is more about rejecting a hyper consumptive society and having enough. That's really it.
Are you against bartering? Because money is a form of bartering.
Why don't you believe people are autonomous? Because of your belief in God? Otherwise people are subject to the culture they grew up in, but can free themselves. So I'm not sure what you mean by not being autonomous. But then you say you feel free so you are contradicting yourself. But anyways, how can you work on feeling autonomous? By reading "Feeling Good" which shows you methods of cognitive behavioral therapy. This is good even for high functioning individuals like yourself.
I'm not sure why you care that no one cares whether you are FI. Only you need to care.
So you feel like you have complete control of your life. That's great. But one medical emergency could wipe out all your savings, even with insurance. And as long as you need money from an employer to pay your bills, or you need to barter to have enough food, you are not truly in control.
Really though, the issue is that you are not really listening to the advice given here, and you are just cherry picking some arguments and reacting.
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Really though, the issue is that you are not really listening to the advice given here, and you are just cherry picking some arguments and reacting.
yes, there's not a serious philosophical discussion going on here, it's reactive blather.
The OP, somehow, just doesn't "get" how simple living,or living according to one's deeply held values, is to be self-actualized.
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Thanks for your patience. Let me just take my feminist bit one step farther. I know men suffer under exertions of power. People everywhere do and this is sad. The point is, as a (I'm assuming) straight, white, american, male, you have infinite choices on how to make sure it doesn't happen to you. In fact, if you show the proper initiative, society will make sure you actually become one of the ones with the power.
It is possible (maybe a crackpot idea, but still possible) that by saving a large sum of money, you are doing exactly that.
See the SAHD post on this forum. He tried to quit and they offered him a management position! What are the chances that would happen to woman who wanted to stay home with her baby?
I'm female, not currently single but have been there, and working in an overwhelmingly male field where... there can be a fair amount of gendered nonsense... I also grew up in foster care, have an awful biological family, and am the only one from either my bio or foster families to make it to Uni.
However: you need to be very careful with assumptions like this. In both directions. There are segments of society in which the white, male, heterosexual members may be heavily disadvantaged - wrong cultural capital, markers of socioeconomic disadvantage, and other factors can make it very hard for some men to get ahead. Even from the "right" social background, throw in certain other bad rolls of the die - medical issues, disability, etc. - and someone can find themselves heavily disadvantaged. A woman from the same background might have an even further layer of disadvantage, as might racial or ethnic minorities, but this doesn't make the original generalisation valid.
Second, and in the other direction: have sufficient other kinds of advantages - be exceptional at what you do, in a niche field - and damn straight an employer will bend over backward to accommodate a woman's desire for more flexible work, higher salary, etc. It does seem to make a huge difference, though, to be able to project a position of strength - a position from which you don't /need/ what they're offering. I've been in that precise position many times - recently, because I have a decent cash buffer, but in the past, often when I had nothing in the bank but, frankly, would rather live in my car than continue at a particular place of work (I've literally done this; it's not a hypothetical). The really clear demonstration that I didn't /need/ the job often resulted in employers running after me with much improved offers - usually I knocked them back, but it was... interesting to experience.
Could most women get this reaction? No. But neither could most men. There's luck and privilege involved: I have extremely high capacity in areas in demand, am preternaturally tenacious, and received amazing kindnesses, often from utterly random strangers, along the way that helped me develop those capacities - a lot of that is down to genetic or circumstantial luck of the draw, and I don't over credit my own efforts. Then again, I got a sucky draw on my family background, socioeconomic starting point, and health (chromosomal disorder associated with degenerating conditions). Meh. You make what can, with what you have - and you recognise that other people can have a complex hand as well, the details of which you may never know.
On your more basic questions: your concerns have nothing intrinsically to do with feminism - they may have a bit more to do with religious commitments, which is fine - it just means the framing of your questions is a bit off-kilter. You are trying to make sone key decisions about how to align your practice of life with your own values. At the moment, on this board, that seems to be taking the form of attacking other people's alignment of their life practices with their own life values, which may be quite radically different from yours. You are asking a "consider the lilies of the field" question - and you may well decide that, having done what you felt you needed to do to demonstrate that you don't need a /man/ to take care of you, you now need to take a different sort if action, in order to demonstrate that you have faith that /god/ will provide, and that therefore you don't need to make any special provision for a time in the future when you might not be able to work as you can now. This is absolutely fine - but is a matter of personal values, and not something on which others are likely to be able to advise. The people on this board aren't obligated to justify their lives to you - to demonstrate to you that saving for the future is something all people must do. Instead, you need to justify your choices to yourself.
I spent a large portion of my life making no provision for the future. There are things I care about achieving in the world, and I am happy living on (by privileged, first-world standards) very little. So I spent years taking jobs briefly, earning "enough" for a short period, and then volunteering the rest of my time. Or working at nominal wages for important causes.
What changed this, for me, was the decision to have children and, shortly after, the realisation that my health may not hold out as long as it might for other people. This didn't change my commitment to causes I find important, and it didn't change my sense of "enough" - certainly didn't increase it - but it changed my perception of the lifespan I might have for making that "enough". I realised that I had a high probability of becoming unable to work, and so I needed a surpkus income for the period I could. So I have a high-paying position now, which I don't enjoy anywhere near as much as when I could just work to meet my immediate needs. But my hope is to save as much, as quickly as I can - and hopefully still have enough health left that I can return to the status quo ante with some capacity to spare. My current job allows me to do something toward the things I care about - but nowhere near as much as I'll be able to do once I've saved my long term "enough" and can leave it.
The future is unpredictable - this could all be a poor gamble, and I could die before I'm able to leave my job, in which case I will have accumulated "too much" (although at least my family would hopefully have a buffer in that case). But, on balance of probability, doing things this way gives me /more/ potential to contribute to the things that matter to me, than continuing in my old minimalist way until my health ran out. I think I have a better chance, this way, of staying healthy enough, for longer, and being able to do more, rather than having to rely on other people to care for me. I'm not religious, so probability's all I got... :-). Other value systems may skew these equations in other ways.
The major point is: these are highly individual questions. The factors in the decision are enormously variable to life circumstance, even if someone actually shares your precise moral/ethical commitments. You currently seem to be experiencing saving as hoarding a surplus for selfish reasons - I experience saving as banking up "enough" for years when I have concrete reason to worry that I won't be able to work - other people will have other, equally individual, ways of navigating these issues. You can potentially learn something from the experiences of others - but that's more likely if you make a serious effort to inhabit their thoughtspace, rather than demanding - like the person in the Talmud, insisting that the rabbi explain the essence of Judaism to him while he stood on one foot - that we sell you on a course of action that, frankly, most people here think is entirely up to you, to choose or reject according to your own personal values.
(I must be missing delivering lectures this term... Sorry for the length...)
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Hi there,
I am a few years down the track from you (39, professional female in a somewhat "niche" career) so thought I would add my perspective. Financially I probably am FI, but struggling with actually RE as (a) I don't know if it's actually what I want and (b) it's hard to ever have "enough" for every eventuality, at some point it's a leap of faith.
First off, I think you are at a classic age to be having these concerns. All of life so far has been broken up into neat 3-5 year chunks with clearly defined goals. There are no clearly defined goals any more, so you're staring at the next 50+ years without a map. What's more, as women the social "norms" are in some ways even broader (as socially the homemaker role is not really considered by most men yet). This stuff is not easy and you don't have to decide all at once. Take a breath and take your time.
Sounds as if you've looked at FI as a possible goal to base your life around in this "vacuum" you find yourself in, and are finding it lacking. I think you are right to. FI is if anything a means to an end, not an end in itself.
Personally, I am honestly still navigating what the "end" actually is. I'm not there, but here are some elements:
- Friends and society (which can include family) are pretty much the point. A lot of what makes me happy is being with people and building my community. You can totally do this without surplus cash. The MMM way is just one way to avoid excess consumerism and focus on what counts. It is a way that tends to suit those of us with a great education (and ability to earn) who are somewhat financially conservative (so we appreciate a safety net and have the means to make one). But there are absolutely other routes that may fit you better.
- If you're lucky life is actually pretty long. It's long enough to take different routes, have different careers, have chunks of time with no career. Feminism has helped put women (and in fact I believe men too) in a much more flexible position. You don't have to have it all or do it all at once, but you can do a heck of a lot one thing at a time.
- For me a huge amount of pleasure and satisfaction comes from creativity. That is somewhat lacking in my job. When I had my quarter life crisis my answer was to put more of that into my life (first through photography, then gardening, and I hope to do more drawing/art in the next few years, and who knows what else in the future: maybe carpentry if I move out of the City longer term).
- there is a limit to what you can expect from your career. In the end if work was that much fun they wouldn't have to pay us, we'd all take welfare and work for free (the communist solution: didn't work so well in practice). It can be satisfying, but it can't be "the purpose" for the vast majority of people. You may need to adjust your expectations.
- If you truly believe capitalism is inherently evil it does create problems for the MMM route. I have problems with consumerism, but not with capitalism (though as a European I like my capitalism to sit in the context of a bit more state than most Americans would choose). You have to make your own call on morality. I see capitalism mainly as an efficient allocation mechanism: but it isn't moral (or evil): that is why we need other institutions (the state, charities, community, families, etc) to make sure our moral priorities are met. I donate, I vote, I read, I try to help my neighbours, support my family and friends, be a helpful colleague and decent boss, on occasion I march and campaign: this all has very little to do with capitalism (which gets food and utilities to my door very nicely thank you: that's its job).
- A lot of how much you "need" and how much you value financial security will depend on whether you plan to have kids. I had no idea if I wanted kids at 27. I didn't have a very firm idea at 35. Now I am 39 and planning my return to work after my first baby, I feel very glad that if I choose to I could afford not to work for many years (maybe for ever), even without financial support from my partner. It means that if the juggling act doesn't work out for me I can resign and reassess in my own sweet time. I can't tell you how much better that makes me feel: will I feel like a bad Mum if I work full time? Will I feel like a bad role model or just go a bit crazy if I don't? Probably the answer to both those questions is "yes" and my stash doesn't solve the problem: but it does leave all options open.
At nearly 40 I am still learning about myself and the world every day. I don't believe that will stop if I reach 80 or even 120. FI doesn't in itself answer these questions or solve these problems, but it does give you a huge amount of flexibility to respond to the lessons you learn.
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Okay, I am going to go theological here because I get the sense that you are struggling with the idea that perhaps the capitalist Western empire is not congruent with God's will. And your possible decision to help build that empire through your extra money (and labour and consumption) is a deeply moral action. Which it is.
Is God's will the dismantling of our present economic system? Perhaps it is.
I suggest you might look at your Catholic roots, the call to social justice, the call to create the Kingdom here on earth. Pope Francis has things to say on this topic.
Maybe explore the idea of intentional community/ new monasticism where your money might be put to the sustainment of a whole community.
For me femininism has to be rooted in the idea of a greater vision for community. What is the point of individual victories gained for women, in a society that fundamentally doesn't recognize human worth?
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It's not about what other people think. It's about what I think of myself and I'm not sure I know it yet. Apparently to some people that means I need therapy. I like questioning it all though, I am not mentally ill because of it.
I think there's a little confusion here:
People are suggesting you go to therapy to work out some issues you may or may not have with your parents (which may or may not actually be necessary). Separately, I also don't think it would be a bad idea to talk with a therapist about the issues we're discussing in this thread, but that's not what people were recommending earlier.
In your case, a therapist is just someone to talk to who knows how to help you think through your feelings by asking the right questions. Internet forums also happen to be pretty good at this just by the sheer volume of questions you get, so here you are doing the same thing. I would fire (and yes you can do that, you are hiring them) anyone who tried to placate you with medication, since that's pretty clearly not necessary. Therapy != mentally ill
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I'm a single mother, so I'm in many ways relieved of some of the doubts you're feeling. I have a very strong, clear moral imperative to work and hoard cash. I have the moral luxury of very little doubt on this question. I was once in the grocery store with my kids, when they were little, and had my debit card declined. It's not something I would like to repeat, so I work very hard and save as much money as I can, both as a buffer from harm, and to provide a reasonably sure path to a good, healthy life for my sons. You're right; the world is a scary place in many ways. When I hear that the gulf between rich and poor is widening, my main thought is, "how do I get my kids safely over to the rich side of this gulf?"
I do give money to charity, and I teach a business ethics class at a large, well-known business school. I'm helping to force future investment bankers to read, talk, think, and write about negative externalities associated with capitalism. These activities help me give back in some way. You know what? It's not a lot. I don't do much, but I do what I can. I"m raising two very good people (one of whom is a socialist who would gladly become homeless and give our house over to the poor tomorrow if he could. Gladly.)
What are you doing right now to help the poor, or to agitate for workers' rights, or help victims of sex slavery? What charities do you support? What have you done for Free the Slaves, for example? If you can't answer these questions (and i haven't read all the posts on this thread, so it's possible I missed it), then go out TODAY and do something. Get involved somehow.
My best friend is a social worker, who goes into one of the very worst cities of America every day to try to help some of the most desperate people on this earth. She's rich; she and her husband saved a lot of money before she decided to quit her corporate gig and pursue the social work degree. She deals with people whose stories belong in a horror movie, every single day. She doesn't spend a lot of time talking about the system, and she doesn't seem to have a ton of moral doubts. She gets to work on finding them a place to stay, a blanket, a change of clothes, a job, a GED. She's one of the happiest, most fun, funniest people I know. She's the one you want to sit next to at a dinner party, because she has a silly, wicked sense of humor. She doesn't have to talk about the system, or guilt, or get annoyed at people for their privilege. She's too busy trying to make the world better.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the cure for the existential dilemma you are facing is work. Work to alleviate suffering, wherever you can. You don't have to solve the problem. You do have to try to solve it to the extent that you can.
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Put the excess towards your mortgage. You are carrying alot of debt relative to your income.
If you were looking for advice about what to do with your "excess" cash each month, that's it, and it's solid. Nobody with a paid off home says, "Well, I wish I still had a mortgage. ..." because once it is paid for, you could, theoretically go back into debt. And I use quotes because your $1000 per month is only excess when you aren't carrying 140× that much in debt.
Next though, I want to tackle some of the things you bring up relative to feminism, privilege, values, etc. First off, I want to congratulate you for recognizing something that gets glossed over in much of FIRE discussion and calculations. The role of luck. It's the giant flaw in taking Millionaire Next Door or even MMM's formula and thinking it is replicable by any and all. It isn't. Not even by the majority. Those of us who have done well have been lucky. We might have worked a bit or sacrificed a bit here and there, but we've been lucky, blessed, fortunate, had the gods smile on us, whatever. . No matter who you are, it wasn't all your doing. When you recognize this, as you seem to already, it makes it easier to understand the fine print at the bottom of every prospectus. That is: Past performance is not indicative of future returns. This is true of most of life, whether you want to believe it or not. Everyone who is sick or disabled was healthy, right up until when they weren't. Everyone who is divorced or widowed was married, right up until they weren't. The S&P keeps going up, right up until it doesn't. With the exception of young people, everyone who is unemployed was working a job until they weren't. With every fiber of my being, I hope your government job lasts as long as you want it to, but they don't all do that. Nor does physical and mental health continue on indefinately.
You've been lucky. Don't squander it. Keep your eyes open.
As for feminism and finance, my favorite book on the subject is called, "How to Hide Money from Your Husband". Despite the catchy title, it's not man hating. It addresses the unique concern women have regarding money. In short, because we live longer and are more likely to have lower lifetime earnings, we need to have even more saved for retirement than a similarly situated male. We could debate till the cows come home if the lower earnings are due to discrimination, taking time out to raise a family or chosing lower paid professions...when those are beside the point. We need our own nest eggs, and we need them to be bigger than what a man would need, and only because of life expectancy. Again, another reason to retire your mortgage debt as early as possible and invest as aggressively as possible.
Lastly, in terms of fulfillment in work and doing what aligns with your values, I'd advise enlarging your circle of friends to include some old and middle aged people, as well as some poor ones. Not all jobs are intrinsically rewarding, many are just a paycheck and a means to do the other thing one is driven and motivated to do (pursue art, raise a family, stay sober one more day). Among those old folks, you will encounter many who didn't find their life's passion until much older than you are. Toward that end, I'll tell you that I left a do-gooder, modestly paying government job when I was a little older than you. At the same age, I couldn't have articulated as well as you have that something was missing, but I seized the chances before me to make a change and moved to a Wall Street career. For me, it is exciting and challenging in ways that the government job never was. And it is far more lucrative. I kept the same lifestyle I had when I was low paid, and am able to do some significant things with the difference. Those are the things that inspire and fulfill me. I've sponsored a few teen mothers through college, I've been a foster parent, been able to help an uninsured person with cancer get treatment that saved their life. I'm not going to save the world or do good on the scale of a Bill Gates, and I don't need to. But what I can do and have done is meaningful to me and pays dividends beyond what I ever imagined. When you no longer need to pay that mortgage, you'll likewise be in a position to do some really good things.
And if you have a vocation and enter a convent... I think nuns totally rock. You may be on the cusp of something extraordinary.
Thanks for your post.
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Like kite, I think your best bet now is paying off your mortgage. Besides the obvious problems associated with funding companies you don't particularly like, markets can and do return nothing or less than nothing for decades, so depending on the environment they may not even be the best use of your money.
In terms of what's a higher use of your money, there are plenty of alternatives out there. Like others have mentioned, you can do P2P lending, invest in green funds, etc... Heck, you can even look at some credit unions and take out a CD with them. You may lose a few percent per year compared to the market as a whole, but your money will be lent out to other credit union members in your community and it won't be eroded by inflation.
Granted, you can't do all that at once, but I've found that when I have it mapped out things are framed less in terms of guilt and more in terms of responsibility. FIRE is, IMO, mostly about independence, and it can be independent of making things worse for others.
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If I understand this correctly, you feel guilty because you see yourself as having more stuff/luck/privelege/happiness than many people in the world, and you are not sure if it is morally right to continue making your life better when there are so many suffering people out there. Is that right? And once you answer the question, if you decide to continue improving your own life (at the expense of others' quality of life, you wonder?) then you can ask yourself if FIRE is right for you.
I have never had this problem, but I've associated with many who did. They often fell into the trap of comparing their lives to others' lives, then feeling guilty at the advantages they had, or alternatively, angry that others had advantages they did not. But you really really can't compare two lives. They are not yardsticks. One person's pain cannot be quantified and compared with another's. Superimposing your standards over someone else's life, then declaring it inadaquate, is presumptous and misleading. Many people that you feel sorry for are happier than you. You are experiencing more pain than many of the people you pity. Others, that you envy, and cannot imagine what they could possibly be unhappy about, are walking around in a universe of pain that you will never understand. It is best to accept each life as completely unique, and never attempt to compare it to another life. Live your own life in accordance to your values, with integrity, and try not to apply your standards to others. This is much easier to preach than practice.
If this is true, then all your guilt is really misplaced. It's not doing you any good. It's not doing the people you pity any good. It's just dragging you down. There are many ways to make the world a better place, and few of them involve large amounts of unprodcutive emoting.
One step past that, becoming FI will allow you to devote more of your time and energies to bettering the world. It also ensures that you will never become a burden on the systems in place to help people less fortunate than you. You feel confident, but you really are one trip-down-the-stairs-and-need-surgery from being pretty poor. By shoring up your financial position, you can add more security to the world.
To pursue FI without selling your morals can be tough. You feel like the stock market, does not, for the most part, align with your ethical leanings. However there are many routes to FI. Become dedicated to seeking one that doesn't compromise you.
And the way you talk does convey a very negative attitude towards men, whether you intend to or not. Remember that whole can't-compare-two-lives thing? Please apply that, instead of contempt and disgust, towards the male gender.
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There are so many great posts here I'm really glad you started this topic.
I have to say I found kite's post particularly wise and inspiring, thank you kite!
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The Myth of Male Power:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IDHV5EM
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I should probably actually stay within the government in order to ensure my gender remains represented. (I'm already the only woman on 6 person team)
Another book to add to the book recommendations for you to read: How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World by Harry Browne.
You are not trapped by what you should do. You are free to choose any life you want, that you would find fulfilling. If that's working a government job and spending the excess, okay. If that's Mustachianism, okay. If that's giving away all your stuff and living in poverty, okay.
But don't feel that there is anything that you are obligated to do.
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you?
As a privileged married white male (who was previously a single white male) I feel qualified to answer this question:
I try my best to be a good person.
As long as that requirement can be met there's nothing to feel guilt for. There's no moral imposition.
People in the world are starving. Americans grow food with the knowledge its way too much than can ever be consumed. Girls are sold into sex slavery and trafficked in OUR countries. My cell phone and computers were mostly assembled by someone who worked 12+ hours a day and that's not counting all the people who worked to get the material and the various environmental atrocities their employers committed while doing so. What is being a good person to you? How can you feel no guilt? I truly cannot comprehend.
We live in an unfair world, there's no doubt about that. It's almost sickening at the micro level. But by and large the planet, for humans, is becoming a more fair place to live, albeit slowly. I take some solace from that notion.
It's one thing for a system to allow a man to hoard enough tax credits in his lifetime that he can afford to pay the tax obligation of every other citizen in the group. After all, in a system where the law is fair and it's applied fairly, that man served his fellow citizens as well as himself by proving he was worthy of their tax credits. But it's another thing entirely for that man's son to come into the world with enough tax credits for thousands of lifetimes!
I disagree with nearly everything you have just written. I will never subscribe to an idea that what I have is merely on-loan from the government. But, Have fun in the drum circle, I'll pass on the funny smelling brownies, I'm out.
All the money you have.... where did it come from?? It was all printed by the government (or loaned into existence through banks regulated by govt). Just so we'd all have something to pay our taxes with. It doesn't really matter if you subscribe to the idea or not. It's the way it's been since the gold standard was abandoned.
You may think the "idea" is funny, but it's reality. Some would think it funny that government need to "borrow" from those who already have it just to fund a nuclear bomb or a school.
To be clear, citizens can own real assets and personal property that are not financial instruments.
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FI is insulation from outside manipulation. It helps to counter the moral hazards associated with being completely dependent on capitalistic activity to sustain life and comfort.
Yes, but every penny MMM has in the S&P 500 and the returns he expects to make from it is completely dependent on capitalist society. It's what he recommends everyone do with their extra cash if they've got their debts paid down, retirement saving set, and expenses cut. He even says things like, "this is your chance to bath in a pool of wealth." I realize he's half joking, but also, he kinda isn't. People on here are saying FI gives you autonomy. What if I don't believe anyone is autonomous, especially Americans? Many males I have encountered seem to operate under this belief, as though everything they have has been rightfully "earned" and no one controls them. I don't know how to achieve that security of thought.
Here's how... Move out into the wilderness/mountains and live solely on your own. Make your own dwelling, catch/grow/kill your own food, have your own thoughts, use leaves for clothes, and start a fire with sticks.
If you want total independence, and want to have the "security" of feeling as if you rightfully earned EVERYTHING you have, this is the only way I see of achieving that.
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Also read this thread about how Mustachianism is not about money: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/can-mustachiansm-be-about-'not-money'/
It may help answer your question(s) in the OP.
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Married people and single white males - how do you morally reconcile the fact that your goals for FI are available to you largely due to the privilege our society affords you? :)
I am an extremely privileged woman. Although, I would attribute this privilege more to my opportunities and socioeconomic status than marriage since I actually am the sole financial support for my spouse (including paying high child support for his children from a previous marriage) and our daughter.
I think that this is a very good thread though, and something good for us to think about. I struggle with my privilege, and in a way, I actually think that FI and/or FU money is extremely good for helping people to see their privilege that they might have not seen before. Eg., the fact that I could live for years with no income, and the rest of my life working PT hours and DH not working at all really makes my privilege glaring to me. However, if I were spending every penny and over-extending myself financially and thus had no savings and was going into debt, I think I might not feel as privileged, might even be more likely to argue that I'm not and haven't been (even with the same income and circumstances).
Basically, to me, MMM is a philosophy that encourages one to appreciate what they have every single day. I cannot imagine that one who truly adopted this mindset would not clearly see their privilege in getting and staying where there are (which is in an extremely great spot).
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I interpreted from OP's posts, "I have everything I ever wanted. Why am I not happy?"
Maybe the things you thought would make you happy, are not capable of giving more than pleasure or temporary thrill. Maybe being free isn't as fulfilling as being truly loved or feeling a true purpose?
Gosh, such good stuff for next week's sunday school lesson!
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Thank you to all those who've responded with encouraging and thought provoking ideas, it’s given me a lot to think about this weekend. One thing that sort of surprised me was how unhappy and angry many people believed I sounded. Granted, I’m confused, perplexed, and intentionally inviting some debate with my thread title, but I guess I was expecting more of the posters here to be more MMM-personality-esque.
I agree with the moderator that MMM is more of a philosophy on life than really about money. His post “The Practical Benefits of Outrageous Optimism” really speaks to me and has for a while. Some people on here are saying, “oh well, you’re really not that well off”, and you’re “one fall away from poverty”. But, sorry, I just don’t buy it. In MMM words: “Your life and my life are both going to continue to increase in awesomeness over time. We are likely to have exceptional fortune and health throughout our days, we’ll help to change some lives for the better, our kids are going to turn out loving and great, and we will die with a broad smile across our rugged and weather-worn faces somewhere around the age of a hundred and twenty two.”
Although I’m only 27 and I described myself as privileged, my loved ones and I have experienced our share of very unfortunate and sad calamities. Up until recently, I wouldn't have believed I could do some of the things I’ve done in the past two years. I thought making sure I had a job and savings would shelter me from feelings of helplessness and provide me some kind of happiness insulation. The past year or two I’ve learned, it really doesn’t matter what you’ve got saved, bad things happen. Money can make your life more or less convenient, and maybe the logistics of the bad things slightly easier, but pain hurts and there's no way around it. I cannot waste more of my time preparing for all the negative what ifs, because they are infinite. And if I’m being entirely rational, when I look at my education, work situation and ingenuity, whatever happens to me and my family, I will be ok. I am loved, I am smart, I am super fucking capable, and I live in America. It’s an insane combination.
Ultimately, I know I will continue to think about FI, but I look at my bank account and just kinda think, “eh could be better, could be worse” and that’s sorta the end of it right now. MMM has inspired me this far, but I can’t get to the kick in my pants needed to “see my dollars work for me.” That idea just doesn’t sit well with me or inspire me. I mean, yeah, I can entertain ideas all day about what it would be like to be rich, but the idea that I’m rich at the expense of other’s wellbeing, labor, or the environment doesn't fill me with any pride.The questions I meant to ask and did so clumsily was "If I’m living my life in ways I feel are ethical (bike riding, local eating, reusing, self-improvement, helping others) how do I make sure I’m saving my money in that way too?"
There’s another very commented thread on here about “is it ethical to make money off of something I own” and I think I will spend some time reading that as well. I think I haven’t found that one thing that lights my fire. Most likely it is some kind of intentional community, I will keep looking. I will focus on doing great at work, paying off my mortgage, and continuing to find fulfilling volunteer opportunities. I will check out everyone's book recommendations and blogs. Thanks again.
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I interpreted from OP's posts, "I have everything I ever wanted. Why am I not happy?"
Maybe the things you thought would make you happy, are not capable of giving more than pleasure or temporary thrill. Maybe being free isn't as fulfilling as being truly loved or feeling a true purpose?
Gosh, such good stuff for next week's sunday school lesson!
+1
Being financially free won't make me feel truly loved, but it will help me work at something that provides more meaning and purpose to my life (volunteering, helping out family, creative pursuits).
Feel free to share your further insights here after developing your Sunday school lesson.
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Okay, I stopped reading, so sorry if I'm repeating or completely out of context.
I was brought up to be a feminist. My mother's motto for me was to never rely on a man for anything. I was supposed to grow up to be independent and have a career. Unfortunately, that was the extent of my guidance. What I found over time was that that information really confused me. Not only did I not need a man, but I had a hard time staying in a relationship because I was a die hard independent person who didn't know how to compromise (or what was okay to compromise on). I never did find that great career (waitress, insurance agent, sales person, painter, etc) and still feel like I never figured out what I wanted to be when I grew up (I'm 46).
I did finally figure out how to be in a good relationship and discovered that I wanted to have kids (which gave my life a lot more meaning) and I eventually found out that I did not want to be a working mom. Shocker! This feminist wanted to be a SAHM! I have actually felt a lot of guilt about that and struggled to feel like not working is okay. What I have found is that the ability to be anything and do anything felt like a load of pressure. That it was my duty to be "successful" and that I never felt like it was okay to not enjoy working.
What I also discovered in my 20's (I had a lot of debt) was that money equals freedom. I wanted to travel more, but couldn't afford to. I wanted to go back to school to be a teacher, but couldn't afford to. You may have a great job now, but that may not be the case one day. My husband has been with his company for 23 years. He was content. However, now the company is going through huge changes and he's confronted with the fact that he may not have a job in a year or two, whether he wants to or not. Having a huge savings gives you the freedom to quit a job that you don't like, go back to school, go on a pilgrimage, be a SAHM, etc. You don't have to understand what you are doing with the money right now, just keep stockpiling. I do recommend putting into an index fund and let it roll. I only recommend paying off your condo if you don't have any plans to sell in the future.
Sorry if this sounds like a lot of rambling. Maybe something I said can help you out. Good luck!
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I do consider sometimes that if I walk away from my career, I won't be there as a role model or mentor for other women, but again - you can't plan your whole life around what you think other people want from you.
But even after you leave paid employment you can continue to be a role model and mentor for other women. There are so many opportunities to promote any thing near and dear to your heart once you are FIRE'd, and now you have the time to do it.
I left my job at 42 where I was at the top of my field and in charge of my (all male) dept (government Environmental Compliance Officer) and in the Coast Guard before that as one of the first females in many of traditionally male dominated jobs/activities/aboard ships/etc... I was very involved in promoting equal opportunity for all people in both my jobs (and did some serious wall breaking in my day) and I continue on in my early retirement. The difference is that now I am more visible to people (especially young women and girls) then I ever was at my job. And I also have a huge amount of free time for more hedonist fun stuff too.
So maybe the OP needs to look at FI that way - not as an opportunity to sit back and do nothing but roll around on her pile of money, but rather as the opportunity to be MORE engaged with the issues she feels are important once she reaches FI and has the freedom to pursue them. She can reduce her spending now in order to attain a Spartan FI that meets her basic frugal needs and supplies her with the security and stability she wants, and focus the remainder of her financial resources on promoting any social justice issues she finds important. I'd start by taking that extra $1,000/month and putting half towards paying down debt and mortgage, and the other half to be used to fund social issues. Maybe think about downsizing the condo to something tiny and inexpensive to become FI faster. She'd still have the security of a roof over her head and her frugal basic needs met, but won't feel as guilty of being a privileged "have" rather than a "have not". The OP needs to know she doesn't need to live in a tent and give everything away in order to do good in this world. A modest life (or very Spartan and frugal as is my case) doesn't mean you have to give up basic security to make a difference.
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This feminist wanted to be a SAHM! I have actually felt a lot of guilt about that and struggled to feel like not working is okay. What I have found is that the ability to be anything and do anything felt like a load of pressure. That it was my duty to be "successful" and that I never felt like it was okay to not enjoy working.
The beauty of feminism is that it's about equal rights and opportunity and the choice to direct your life as you want - whether you are a SAHP or a Captain of Industry. There are no wrong choices, only choices. And no need to feel guilty or bad for choosing the lifestyle that suits you best. This applies to men as well. And you ARE working - one of the hardest jobs out there. Never think that being a SAHP isn't "working". It's a tough job (and I say that as a childless female) and requires a high level of dedication at all times.
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We live in an unfair world, there's no doubt about that. It's almost sickening at the micro level. But by and large the planet, for humans, is becoming a more fair place to live, albeit slowly. I take some solace from that notion.
Power in our culture is held disproportionately by white males, there's no doubt about that. But across the planet the power is wielded by those with money. Sure, we should continue to make strides to curb sexism and racism. But no nation on earth will ever offer each of it's citizens a truly equal opportunity until it adopts fiscal and monetary policy that treat money as the TAX CREDIT that it is. Citizens, and thus their government, must understand that money cannot be separated from the tax that it extinguishes or the law that governs them. They must recognize that money itself belongs to the group of people (sovereign nation) who choose to create it. If citizens and their government still act and talk (as we do in America) like money is some finite natural resource that is possessed by individuals (rather than the group), and therefor must be taxed away from them to do the work of the government, there is no hope for a society with equal opportunity.
Money in real life really isn't much more complicated than a game of monopoly. It baffles me that well-educated citizens, especially ones well versed in individual financial management, continue to mix the current reality of fiat money with the pre-1970s world of hard money. It can't be both ways. Either money should belong to us all, or it should belong to us individuals. It can't be both ways.
Most of us would see the inherent injustice in forcing a monopoly player to start out with no money while another player started the game with half of the assets on the board.
I agree that there is privilege-blindness all around us when it comes to race and gender in America. It's obvious in the aggregate, the way young white males flock to libertarian ideas. There are plenty of young white males, many on this forum, who have built fortunes by starting out with nothing. What they don't realize is the young black man or white woman in the same financial position, started with less than nothing!
But that inequality is but a drop in the bucket compared to the inequality between all of us starting with nothing or next to nothing and those with significant wealth at birth (or 18, however you look at it).
You don't have to abandon respect for private property rights or embrace communism to realize that when wealth can be amassed by individuals and passed to the next generation, equality of opportunity and obligation cannot be achieved.
If the idea of every citizen starting life with the same financial wealth offends you, then you probably don't fully grasp that money is a tax credit. Of course there's no way to prove it, but it's likely that: the more you are offended by this, the more privileged you are.
If you start replacing the word money with "tax credit" every time you think about anything concerning money, the world will make more sense. Why would someone want to hoard tax credits? Why would the group who issues tax credits allow one individual or small group to control large amounts of tax credits? It's common knowledge that taxes against the individual or the corporation or the economic activity in which they engage, serve to set the obligation of that individual or corporation to the rest of society (the group). But, it must follow that as tax credits are accumulated by an individual, the reverse obligation is created; an obligation from the group to the individual. As long as the government issuing the tax credits has the authority to collect the tax it's owed, those who owe tax will have a need to obtain tax credits and the value of money is maintained.
It's one thing for a system to allow a man to hoard enough tax credits in his lifetime that he can afford to pay the tax obligation of every other citizen in the group. After all, in a system where the law is fair and it's applied fairly, that man served his fellow citizens as well as himself by proving he was worthy of their tax credits. But it's another thing entirely for that man's son to come into the world with enough tax credits for thousands of lifetimes!
Whoa JohnHenry. There's great stuff here, I'm doing to look into this viewpoint more. Thank you very much for your thoughts and consideration. Yeah, the problem for me is MMM claims to be perfectly content on $24,000 and perfectly capable of earning that much between him and his wife for any given year, presumably to he is very old and frail. As long as he has his house, anything extra brings him no extra happiness or real security, since he is secure in his abilities and lifestyle. So why store the extra? It's more than he will ever need by his own admission.
These are great questions icky.
http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html
Here's a link to an essay by Bertrand Russell, who was back in 1932, discussing these same things. What's his answer?? More leisure!! His specific prescription (or starting point, anyway) is a four hour work day instead of eight. He points out the fallacy of a society choosing to having large numbers of unemployed completely idle, while others work long hours. In a way, adopting "mustachianism" at the individual level, is much like adopting a 4 hour work day nationwide. One is working half a day then taking off, the other is working half a career, then taking off.
I think there are many other mustachians who would actually choose to postpone FIRE if it was feasible to easily obtain employment arrangements with 4 hours per day or 3-4 days per week, long vacation times. Yes, I know, it's *possible* to find employment like this, but it's uncommon, still likely to come with a wage penalty, and until recently (ACA) meant no health insurance.
To answer your question about why MMM stores the extra instead of giving away his needs of $24000/year. I can't answer for him. But for me, the answer is security. Until our society becomes advanced enough to strike a more adequate balance between leisure and work, those of us content leading stable, efficient lives are compelled to save it up as fast as we can so we have enough for the rest of our days.
Here's an excerpt from the essay where Russell also compares the sexual enslavement of women by men to the enslavement of the poor by the rich.
For ages, men had conceded the superior saintliness of women, and had consoled women for their inferiority by maintaining that saintliness is more desirable than power. At last the feminists decided that they would have both, since the pioneers among them believed all that the men had told them about the desirability of virtue, but not what they had told them about the worthlessness of political power. A similar thing has happened in Russia as regards manual work. For ages, the rich and their sycophants have written in praise of 'honest toil', have praised the simple life, have professed a religion which teaches that the poor are much more likely to go to heaven than the rich, and in general have tried to make manual workers believe that there is some special nobility about altering the position of matter in space, just as men tried to make women believe that they derived some special nobility from their sexual enslavement.
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I thought making sure I had a job and savings would shelter me from feelings of helplessness and provide me some kind of happiness insulation.
Money does not equal happiness
Money = freedom to find out what makes you happy. Yes bad things do happen to everyone no matter how much money they have. But someone who has no money will be devastated and may end up losing their job due to missed work, end up homeless etc. You wouldn't even be able to contemplate your own happiness if you didn't have as much as you already do, as people who are living on the edge don't have the mental bandwidth (you should research mental bandwidth and poverty) to do so. "Money makes the logistics of bad things easier," Bingo!
I was not saying you are one fall away from poverty, but possibly one fall away from having to spend the money you have already saved.
"I’m rich at the expense of other’s wellbeing, labor, or the environment" Still don't understand why this would have to be the case.
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icky, i hear what you are saying ... women alive today in the western world at least have more freedoms than basically any women in history. so, shouldn't we be using that freedom for something other than personal gain? it's almost a form of survivor's guilt. you can look around and see that there are a LOT of women in the world who don't have anywhere near the opportunities that we have. so to walk away from those opportunities can feel kind of like throwing away a gift.
but "a job" is not the only way of contributing. i would argue that every drop of freedom we claim and exercise and explore actually can have the effect of expanding freedoms for other people, if only by providing them an example of what's possible.
there are lots of ways you can contribute to the liberation of women in the world -- and in fact your relative privilege compared to most women in the world/throughout history gives you more ways you can contribute. lend your money to kiva entrepreneurs. work for reproductive rights. be a big sister to a kid who could use a different kind of example in her life. read and write and learn and talk about feminist ideas. volunteer at a battered women's shelter or as an abortion clinic escort. work to overcome your own female conditioning (which for lots of us manifests in lacking confidence, saying sorry a lot, thinking our bodies are ugly, etc).
the best way to show gratitude for the privileges you've been granted is to use them to expand the circle of freedom to include folks who aren't currently inside it.
+1! I get it. I feel this way too. I feel like Why do I deserve to be happy?? So many other women in the world are not happy! Use your freedom to grant freedom to others. Expand happiness by doing good. Expand FI by following mustachian principles. FI is not laziness! It is freedom.
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I am entirely the product of government handouts. I was raised by a military father (who was raised by a military father, whos parent's immigrated here when this country actually welcomed the tired/poor/broken hearted), had an entirely public education, and I now work for the government. There is no escaping the system, I get that.
Your father and grandfather didn't get "handouts." They worked in service to our country. Perhaps even risked their lives. Public school is not a "handout." It is our nation's investment in our human capital meant to shape and develop the next generation into productive, engaged citizens. You work for the government, but unless you're not performing, you're WORKING. That's not a handout. At every step along the way, you and your ancestors had to match the "handout" you were given with your own hard work to capitalize on the opportunity.
Why are you minimizing the work individuals have done and dismissing all the gains as a result of "handouts?" It's rather perverse for you to be having an existential crisis over your privileged status while simultaneously refusing to recognize the work you and others have done to achieve the status you have. As it it all just magically happened. Yes, you were born into opportunity. But you capitalized on that opportunity.
Maybe it would help if you spent some time listening to your parents talk about their lives and started to see them as real humans with hopes, dreams, and worries of their own. I can guarantee you they've had moments of crisis, worry, and fear. And times when they had to work so hard that they were bleary-eyed and near-broken. You seem to think that your position arose because someone sprinkled fairy dust on your head, but it is also the result of a lot of hard work, beginning with the generation that emigrated here with (likely) nothing but the shirts on their back and leading to you, right now.
You disrespect them and their hard work, and you and your hard work, by calling it a "handout." If, after reflecting on the work done, you still feel like your relative privilege imposes an extra duty on you, then embrace the philosophy of noblesse oblige and give life a little time to kick the shit out of you at some point. Then you'll feel less privileged.
FWIW, I've been a feminist since Billie Jean beat what's-his-name when I was about 7. I minored in Women's Studies. I was married for 16 years. I've been divorced for 10. I've been a public school teacher and am now a lawyer in private practice. Does that all make me more credible or less? (sarcasm)
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@icky, you might want to check out Your Money or Your Life for more of the philosophy of FI. He actually includes in his opening examples a guy with a similar outlook as you, "having money and spending money is evil". One thing I would point out to you is the idea of "capital". You know about "Social Capital" (aka privilege) and MM talks a lot about "Financial Capital", but you have so much more capital. Specifically, think about your "Human Capital" (aka your Time) and how you are using that. MMM, and those of us pursuing FI, have decided to stop the Human Capital + Social Capital -> Financial Capital and instead let Financial Capital -> Financial Capital + Social Capital. This frees up our Human Capital to tackle things we really care about (for me it will be starting a school to increase the Mental Capital of students).
FWIW, there are socially concious mutual funds and independent investment vehicles out there (like peer-lending).
Also, #youneedfeminism because you have WAY too much guilt about your privilege. You seem to be COMPLETELY blind to the efforts you have put in to get where you are today. Our fore-mothers worked hard so you have the CHOICE of how to spend your time. Would you judge a feminist who CHOSE to get married and stay home with her kids? What about a feminist who worked hard to earn enough money to support her whole family and retired by 30 to stay home with her kids and husband?
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Your father and grandfather didn't get "handouts." They worked in service to our country. Perhaps even risked their lives. Public school is not a "handout." It is our nation's investment in our human capital meant to shape and develop the next generation into productive, engaged citizens. You work for the government, but unless you're not performing, you're WORKING. That's not a handout. At every step along the way, you and your ancestors had to match the "handout" you were given with your own hard work to capitalize on the opportunity.
Why are you minimizing the work individuals have done and dismissing all the gains as a result of "handouts?" It's rather perverse for you to be having an existential crisis over your privileged status while simultaneously refusing to recognize the work you and others have done to achieve the status you have. As it it all just magically happened. Yes, you were born into opportunity. But you capitalized on that opportunity.
Maybe it would help if you spent some time listening to your parents talk about their lives and started to see them as real humans with hopes, dreams, and worries of their own. I can guarantee you they've had moments of crisis, worry, and fear. And times when they had to work so hard that they were bleary-eyed and near-broken. You seem to think that your position arose because someone sprinkled fairy dust on your head, but it is also the result of a lot of hard work, beginning with the generation that emigrated here with (likely) nothing but the shirts on their back and leading to you, right now.
You disrespect them and their hard work, and you and your hard work, by calling it a "handout." If, after reflecting on the work done, you still feel like your relative privilege imposes an extra duty on you, then embrace the philosophy of noblesse oblige and give life a little time to kick the shit out of you at some point. Then you'll feel less privileged.
FWIW, I've been a feminist since Billie Jean beat what's-his-name when I was about 7. I minored in Women's Studies. I was married for 16 years. I've been divorced for 10. I've been a public school teacher and am now a lawyer in private practice. Does that all make me more credible or less? (sarcasm)
This is fantastic. Makes me think about my future and all the hard work I've been putting in (and how I found out today, I don't get a weekend because I'm needed at work for 11 days straight) and how it is paying off because I'm reducing debt and increasing saving so I can make a good (better than mine has been and that of my forebears) life for my family. And I hope my [future] children appreciate the privilege they will have rather than saying I was given handouts because I'm a government employee.
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I am entirely the product of government handouts. I was raised by a military father (who was raised by a military father, whos parent's immigrated here when this country actually welcomed the tired/poor/broken hearted), had an entirely public education, and I now work for the government. There is no escaping the system, I get that.
Your father and grandfather didn't get "handouts." They worked in service to our country. Perhaps even risked their lives. Public school is not a "handout." It is our nation's investment in our human capital meant to shape and develop the next generation into productive, engaged citizens. You work for the government, but unless you're not performing, you're WORKING. That's not a handout. At every step along the way, you and your ancestors had to match the "handout" you were given with your own hard work to capitalize on the opportunity.
Why are you minimizing the work individuals have done and dismissing all the gains as a result of "handouts?" It's rather perverse for you to be having an existential crisis over your privileged status while simultaneously refusing to recognize the work you and others have done to achieve the status you have. As it it all just magically happened. Yes, you were born into opportunity. But you capitalized on that opportunity.
Maybe it would help if you spent some time listening to your parents talk about their lives and started to see them as real humans with hopes, dreams, and worries of their own. I can guarantee you they've had moments of crisis, worry, and fear. And times when they had to work so hard that they were bleary-eyed and near-broken. You seem to think that your position arose because someone sprinkled fairy dust on your head, but it is also the result of a lot of hard work, beginning with the generation that emigrated here with (likely) nothing but the shirts on their back and leading to you, right now.
You disrespect them and their hard work, and you and your hard work, by calling it a "handout." If, after reflecting on the work done, you still feel like your relative privilege imposes an extra duty on you, then embrace the philosophy of noblesse oblige and give life a little time to kick the shit out of you at some point. Then you'll feel less privileged.
FWIW, I've been a feminist since Billie Jean beat what's-his-name when I was about 7. I minored in Women's Studies. I was married for 16 years. I've been divorced for 10. I've been a public school teacher and am now a lawyer in private practice. Does that all make me more credible or less? (sarcasm)
I missed that comment from Icky the first time but totally agree with your comment Truly 'stachian. Serving in the military or working a government job are not handouts! They are jobs were you earn your pay and, especially in the military, often go above and beyond the normal work load most private jobs require for much less pay. She should be proud of the accomplishments of her forebearers as well as herself rather then hold them in contempt.
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I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt." I don't at all, I love my family, they are aware of my love for them and I really do hold them and their work precious. People were telling me I needed to save so I don't rely on the government, when the fact of the matter is I've relied on the government to get me where I am today. The argument that I should save to guard against all the possibility of taking a government "hand-out" doesn't hold water for me and I won't be ashamed if god-forbid I ever had to accept SNAP for my hungry children or something.
And that still doesn't mean I or my family have somehow worked harder than the the billions of people on this planet. I've lucked out in the that their hard work and circumstances have somehow vaulted me into a truly remarkable class of people who can decide whether or not they will "choose" to work. (if we're all mustachians here, we're all of this class, as are many Americans.)
I've realized through this discussion that I don't like using words like "freedom" when it comes to discussing financial independence. It's a slap in the face to those that suffer under true lack of agency. I am free. Financial independence is a goal that is simply completely out of reach for a majority of people, and an even greater majority or women, and I am not going to kid myself into thinking I "deserve" it just because I've cut back on the material goods everyone around me possess.
The idea that I should "give life a little time to kick the shit out of you at some point. Then you'll feel less privileged" is ridiculous and a cop-out. It's the same as complainy-pants stuff, "Oh, I have a crappy family or a crappy marriage or a crappy job or I'm sick, or I overcame a crappy job or crappy marriage or disease so therefore I DESERVE [insert material goods or a large investments generating passive income]" What about all those people that overcame all those things WITHOUT any way to materially reward themselves or who simply cannot because they don't have access to the same resources, freedoms, and even rights as I do? There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)
The mustachian way shows us that we have access to this vast amount of resources that are mostly being wasted and ignored by those around us. I can use this to my benefit by cutting my consumption and then stopping work early since an educated, childless, saver can get by very easily if they choose to live off American cultures excess. So at what point am I consuming/storing more than my fair share of the resources? Is it legitimate to say, well I might need them later so it's ok? How can I determine what I legitimately NEED and what is excess? Or should I tell myself the resources are infinite and everyone has equal access so therefore I have no responsibility to even make this distinction?
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Despite the title of the thread, I don't think feminism is your issue here, as your questions seem more existential than anything.
If you do want to delve into feminism a bit more, I'd suggest the archives of the blog I Blame The Patriarchy. Sadly few updates these days, but still well worth its space on the internet.
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Despite the title of the thread, I don't think feminism is your issue here, as your questions seem more existential than anything.
If you do want to delve into feminism a bit more, I'd suggest the archives of the blog I Blame The Patriarchy. Sadly few updates these days, but still well worth its space on the internet.
Determining what I truly NEED has a lot to do with feminism. I'm one of the first women in my family who gets to decide this for myself, it's a luxury, as is determining if I should try to become FI or not. More men than women, and especially white men, have had the opportunity to decide this throughout time, which is why I called them privileged. I don't already have 2.5 kids and a husband around determining it for me.
Thank you for the recommendation - I will check it out.
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Ideologies are great places to hide from yourself.
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Ideologies are great places to hide from yourself.
Which parts of myself is feminism causing me to hide from Totoro?
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Ideologies are great places to hide from yourself.
Which parts of myself is feminism causing me to hide from Totoro?
Many have said it here in one form or another: find your passion. Look deep within yourself for that which motivates you and makes your heart sing.
That is our life's work, and it is both the simplest thing conceptually and the most difficult thing to do in actuality.
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Ideologies are great places to hide from yourself.
Which parts of myself is feminism causing me to hide from Totoro?
Many have said it here in one form or another: find your passion. Look deep within yourself for that which motivates you and makes your heart sing.
That is our life's work, and it is both the simplest thing conceptually and the most difficult thing to do in actuality.
Are there any passions that are purely self-indulgent? If everyone went around saying their life's work was to find their passion, what does that world look like? What parts of my feminist ideology are preventing me from finding my passion?
David Foster Wallace addresses this in "This is Water" speech - "But of course there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving.... The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, unsexy ways every day.
That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing."
John Paul II says his ambition while being young was to be an actor, and he described himself as “completely absorbed by a passion for literature, especially dramatic literature, and for the theater." He could've followed his "passion."
I can have passions but that still doesn't convince me I need financial independence to do so.
I thank everyone for their thoughts, but this conversation has largely reinforced a gnawing feeling within myself that I do indeed, have enough.
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this conversation has largely reinforced a gnawing feeling within myself that I do indeed, have enough.
That's great!
I question why it would be a "gnawing" feeling, rather than a satisfied one.
Enough is all you should want. Be happy.
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this conversation has largely reinforced a gnawing feeling within myself that I do indeed, have enough.
That's great!
I question why it would be a "gnawing" feeling, rather than a satisfied one.
Enough is all you should want. Be happy.
Because I think I have extra! It's time for my main focus to be how I can give to causes I most care about effectively. If I decide it's truly ME who needs to be available full time to work on these causes, perhaps then I will save more in order to leave my job. Thanks!
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Because I think I have extra! It's time for my main focus to be how I can give to causes I most care about effectively. If I decide it's truly ME who needs to be available full time to work on these causes, perhaps then I will save more in order to leave my job. Thanks!
Sounds like you have a good plan moving forward then: figuring out what to do with all your excess above and byond your "enough."
It's often a lifelong project.
Good luck.
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Hey Icky!
There are so many great replies on this thread, that I don't think I have a ton to offer that hasn't already been said. I felt and sometimes feel the same way that you do about the moral implications of retiring early based on investment earnings, but optimism, a reflection that the world is getting better in lots of ways (look at hunger rates over 20 years, awareness of women's rights, incredibly tech revolutions), and respect for the limitations of my circle of influence have left me at mostly at peace. Functioning in a state of anxiety can really hinder performance and progress. I encourage meditation if you can get 5 minutes away each day at a set time :)
Your job also sounds incredibly cool - congrats on your accomplishments! If you want to continue to represent professionally for other women, have you thought about mentoring or giving presentations to young women at local high schools or colleges? I would have loved to been inspired by someone like you during formative and scary periods of life, when career planning was a distant priority compared to social survival.
FWIW - If you can get over your misgivings about the capitalist exploitation aspects, I think you should aggressively go for FI. The earlier you start, the easier it is to achieve, and it is better to have the OPTION to do be FI, free and clear, when the time comes, as opposed to ending up in your mid thirties and realizing you have to work more than you want to. Also, being FI early is an incredibly powerful example to women around you. (We own less than 1% of the world's property, and work 75% of the minimum wage jobs).
On top of setting an example and having personal flexibility - feminist and anti-poverty organizers need hands, hearts, and minds in vast numbers. I plan to be FI ASAP so I can devote myself entirely to women and children escaping violent husband/fathers, survivors of sex trafficking, and advocating for reproductive rights. Here is a conference I wish I could go to, if it weren't for work conflicts: http://www.traffickingconference.com/
There is so much work to do, so many people need a hand. If there is going to be an economic revolution, that is way bigger than you and would change a lot more about your life than you could affect by any choices you make now. Get free and then get your feet solidly on the ground so you can get in the struggle. I am so excited that there are people like you in the world!!
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this conversation has largely reinforced a gnawing feeling within myself that I do indeed, have enough.
That's great!
I question why it would be a "gnawing" feeling, rather than a satisfied one.
Enough is all you should want. Be happy.
Because I think I have extra! It's time for my main focus to be how I can give to causes I most care about effectively. If I decide it's truly ME who needs to be available full time to work on these causes, perhaps then I will save more in order to leave my job. Thanks!
Or if you do have a burning passion to work on the world's injustices just give up the job (and the security that comes with that or attaining FI and the security that comes with that) and follow your passion. There are many people who have done that - my own BIL gave up a lucrative career as a commercial pilot to work as a pilot for an African relief organization to ferry supplys,. medicines, food, aid workers, etc... to some of the most destitute war torn areas of Africa. He gets a small stipend to live on - in a pretty abject poverty way compared to First World Country standards. Thousands of people currently and through out history have done similar (google Peace Pilgrim http://www.peacepilgrim.org/ as an example), thousands have joined the Peace Corps or Vista or other such places to address social injustice, poverty and the like. Nothing stopping you from doing the same. You don't HAVE to become FI. You don't HAVE to work a paying job. You CAN find a way to do more and get by in life. Or, as I and many other's here have pointed out, if you aren't comfortable living in poverty and /or being hands-on then work to as a vocal advocate for change. You can do that while working and living a First World lifestyle (especially a very modest lifestyle), save a bit towards FI if that's your goal - or if not and you'd rather give the bulk of your earnings away, plan to work until 65 or older. FIRE is one goal to achieve what you want in life, but it's only one and may not be for you. We here at this forum, and probably most people in the world, get that we have so much more then other's do in the world. We aren't worried that we'll be gang raped or butchered by roving bands of militants who burn our homes, kill our fathers and brothers and rape our mothers and sisters and sell us into slavery. We don't worry about enough food to eat or clean water to drink. We don't worry about dying from an infected paper cut or a common virus. We DO have it good - and most of us recognize that. So instead of complaining about the bad state of the world here, why not channel that energy and drive towards the ears of the people who can actually make change in the world. That's a good start.
ETA: Also look into changing careers to one that supports the things you care about even if it earns less money. There are lots and lots of advocacy groups out there that don't pay much but can make big changes in the world. If FI isn't you'll goal and you can be happy living a Spartan lifestyle then it really doesn't matter how much you earn - just "enough" to meet your basic needs. Many of us here have choosen career fields because they had more meaning to us in terms of doing good for others then money.
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I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)
Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Army, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.
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What parts of my feminist ideology are preventing me from finding my passion?
Probably the part where you insist on calling it feminism even though nobody else understands what the hell you're talking about. You can have your personal ideology, in fact it's great to have, but don't give it a label that everyone else understands to mean something else. I have a personal code of ethics, but I don't go around calling it communism or post-structuralism because communism and post-structuralism already have roughly agreed-upon definitions that the rest of the world understands.
David Foster Wallace addresses this in "This is Water" speech - "But of course there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving.... The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, unsexy ways every day.
That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing."
If you're interested in further literature on it, have you read Jonathan Franzen's Freedom? One of the themes seems to be the idea that personal freedom, which America worships, is not the be-all end-all of human progression or happiness. Sometimes meaning involves commitments and commitments come with a diminishing of freedom. Sometimes caring for a loved one means sacrificing an ideology or dream but is a better purpose than those abstract ideas which are touted so much in our culture. (I think he actually got these ideas across pretty well in The Corrections but apparently he didn't think so, so this is the following novel where he beats the reader over the head with the ideas.)
From that quote it sounds like you're struggling with the idea a lot of young people struggle with which is the pull between the potential and the definite. Financial independence is a specific number, not "some infinite thing." Not hoarding infinite money. On the other hand, if you keep working for money your whole life, what are you chasing after?
But as other people have mentioned, it sounds like you're dealing with some personal shit and dressing it up in an ideological discussion to make it seem more legitimate. You don't have to do that. Your personal concerns are quite legitimate on their own. They'll eventually tie into your greater intellectual ideas about the world, but use those intellectual ideas as an excuse to talk about the personal and you give both short shrift.
Finally I leave you with a quote from Dr. House.
"J'ever notice, how all the self-sacrificing women in history, Joan of Arc, Mother Teresa [...] they all die alone? The men, on the other hand, get so much fuzz it's crazy."
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I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)
Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.
Not everyone, even those in the military, agree with you.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-an-army-veteran-and-my-benefits-are-too-generous/2014/06/06/5e8db2ec-eb35-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html
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I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)
Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.
+1
I'd like to add that even if a soldier/ sailor/ airman/ marine never sees combat, they probably spend much of their waking lives TRAINING for combat and that alone can lead to death or chronic injuries. Just ask my friend the Army paratrooper whose service resulted in ruined knees and chronic spinal problems. Or the widow of the pilot who was killed on a training flight.
There's also the repeated relocations and willingness to uproot and say goodbye to friends and family because the military said so. Spending four years in Alaska in the early 1960's (as a friend's AF father did) could not have been either easy or fun.
I'm sure you love your family but you display a significant lack of awareness of who they are, as people, and what they've done with their lives.
Maybe your mom stayed home because, according to her conscience, that was her highest and best purpose on this earth. Yet, you dismiss it with a wave of your hand. Have you ever bothered to ask her about her life and then really LISTEN to her answer? Maybe, just maybe, she had a similar existential crisis when she was your age and after contemplation and searching she realized that her family was her highest priority and so she acted accordingly.
In your search for meaning, start with the people you love. You can't go wrong there and you just might learn a thing or two from the Elders of your Tribe.
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Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...
Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.
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I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)
Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.
Not everyone, even those in the military, agree with you.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-an-army-veteran-and-my-benefits-are-too-generous/2014/06/06/5e8db2ec-eb35-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html
I never said everyone agrees with me, I'm saying that as a Vet myself, as well as an advocate for Vets, most have gone above and beyond anything even remotely comparable in the civilian world in their 20 plus years of service to earn that pension.
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I can question the idea of what it means to "earn" something and "deserve" things without holding my "forebears in contempt."
There are men is the world who put their lives on the line for their country and their family without any guarantee of healthcare or a big pension (which my grandfather and father have without ever serving in a war zone and my cousin who served twice in Afghanistan and once in Iraq and then decided to leave the army does not get.)
Your definition of someone who spends 20 or more years of their life in the armed forces as receiving "government handouts" smacks of contempt and belittles those who - for whatever reason - chose this path in life. You assume, very wrongly, that anyone in the service who hasn't been in combat or a warzone must have had a cushy job and thus is undeserving of a pension. The percentage of people in the service who have been in combat zones is small compared to the number who have served. Most have worked in extremely harsh conditions far from home with no clocking out at 5 pm, no going home to the family on weekends or holiday, and maybe not seeing their families for months or years - they do this year after year after year for a small income compared to the number of hours they work. Many have done extensive relief work in places that have natural or man made disasters. The Navy has huge hospital ships that travel the world lending aid, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard supplies aircraft to make aid drops, Marines and Nat. Guard physically set up reugee camps and aid stations and do hand-on aid - as do all the other services including the Coast Guard. Coast Guard (as well as the Navy) ply the seven seas to stop illegal contraband - everything from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking - from entering the country, as well as environmental protection, search and rescue, etc... The list of things that those in the military do that is outside active "boots on the ground" combat is huge. The dedication and sacrifice most military service members have done more than justifies their pension after 20 years of service.
+1
I'd like to add that even if a soldier/ sailor/ airman/ marine never sees combat, they probably spend much of their waking lives TRAINING for combat and that alone can lead to death or chronic injuries. Just ask my friend the Army paratrooper whose service resulted in ruined knees and chronic spinal problems. Or the widow of the pilot who was killed on a training flight.
agreed. Many of us who've been in the service have been badly injured and suffered a permanent disability (including myself) - not in combat, but in training or just doing the job. The constant moves (often every year), the constant deployments or patrols, the 16 plus hour work days 7 days a week in harsh and dangerous conditions, all take a tool on a person. Yes there are cushy jobs in the military, but it often takes years of drudgery and often sacrifice to get to that point.
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Despite the title of the thread, I don't think feminism is your issue here, as your questions seem more existential than anything.
If you do want to delve into feminism a bit more, I'd suggest the archives of the blog I Blame The Patriarchy. Sadly few updates these days, but still well worth its space on the internet.
Determining what I truly NEED has a lot to do with feminism. I'm one of the first women in my family who gets to decide this for myself, it's a luxury, as is determining if I should try to become FI or not. More men than women, and especially white men, have had the opportunity to decide this throughout time, which is why I called them privileged. I don't already have 2.5 kids and a husband around determining it for me.
Thank you for the recommendation - I will check it out.
Also, more (many more in some instances) men than women have...
-Died in armed conflict throughout history
-Died due to workplace hazards
-Not passed on their genes to foster another generation
-Mental illnesses that receive little to no care
-Homelessness encroaching upon their circumstances
-Comitted suicide
You're a shill and you don't even realize it.
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Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...
Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.
You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked. But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism. She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning. Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out. Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.
Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.
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Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...
Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.
You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked. But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism. She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning. Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out. Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.
Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.
Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.
And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.
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OP is either (1) very intelligent but mentally ill (or verging on it), or (2) trolling the hell out us.
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Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...
Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.
You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked. But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism. She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning. Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out. Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.
Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.
Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.
And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.
Have you had to risk life and limb for the rewards you've received?
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Despite the title of the thread, I don't think feminism is your issue here, as your questions seem more existential than anything.
If you do want to delve into feminism a bit more, I'd suggest the archives of the blog I Blame The Patriarchy. Sadly few updates these days, but still well worth its space on the internet.
Determining what I truly NEED has a lot to do with feminism. I'm one of the first women in my family who gets to decide this for myself, it's a luxury . . .
No, it is not a luxury. It is your birthright as an American. The very essence of liberty means that we each get to decide the meaning of life, according to our own individual conscience. It's what your father and grandfather served to protect.
The fact that earlier generations of women (and today's less fortunate women) were denied their rights and liberty does not make it merely a luxury for you.
Today is 9/11. It's a great day to stand up and claim your RIGHT to be whomever you want to be. Stop all this hand twisting -- all this narcissistic navel gazing -- and go build something important.
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Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...
Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.
You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked. But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism. She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning. Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out. Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.
Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.
Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.
And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.
Have you had to risk life and limb for the rewards you've received?
Your glib response won't work with me.
If you're asking if I am ashamed of innate differences in humans that push my IQ to the right side of the bell curve and allow me more chances at wealth than others, then NO, I am not ashamed; I know that life isn't fair. On the flip side, I will never dunk a basketball but I don't hold it against LeBron James that he can and that he makes millions of dollars for it.
OP is either (1) very intelligent but mentally ill (or verging on it), or (2) trolling the hell out us.
I for one would hope for the latter, but like a true "staunch feminist", I would bet on the former.
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Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...
Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.
You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked. But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism. She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning. Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out. Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.
Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.
Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.
And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.
Have you had to risk life and limb for the rewards you've received?
The misogyny directed at Icky in this thread has been extreme. I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed.
Considering the incredibly high incidence of rape (1/4 women in a college setting), and that 100% of women endure sexual harassment and the threat of sexual violence (which results in emotional trauma and can run the risk of pregnancy, which is a life-threatening condition), while our right to bodily autonomy is curtailed by law, and simultaneously exploited by the "sexual entertainment" (paid rape) industry while we earn less and are discriminated against for our mere existence on a daily basis in tangibly offensive way, I would say women risk life and limb in some pretty unique ways compared to guys. And I'm not going to open this thread anymore because if you think that feminism isn't necessary or women's oppression isn't real, or that a white male's struggles somehow render millennia of oppression of women irrelevant (while those same males have manifested and/or benefited from said oppression), there is nothing I can say on this thread that is going to convince you otherwise, when the world around you, and ample resources available to you have not opened your eyes. I know the misogyny guns directed at her on this thread will be pointed at me, and I won't take the time to read or respond to it.
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OP is either (1) very intelligent but mentally ill (or verging on it), or (2) trolling the hell out us.
I wouldn't say mentally ill, but definitely troubled. I hope she finds what she's looking for.
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f all of this.
There's no such thing as a birthright as an American. There's only my birthrights as a human being and they should be equal among us all. I AM building something important and my life does have meaning and I am not mentally ill. Its astounding how many people are ready to tell I have none of those things based on some intentionally contentious postings on a personal finance forum!
I don't have a RIGHT to be whomever I want to be. I have a RESPONSIBILITY to be someone worth having on this planet! It's an attitude that I don't seem to see often and its deeply frustrating. And yes, white males seem to be the ones who go around talking about their rights and their earnings while belittling others as cat-ladys.
I haven't heard one truly good reason why having a lot of money in your bank account can make you happy. It's still not good enough and you're all copping out by saying its about "passion" and "freedom".
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Your OP reads like a parody of everything feminism is mocked for, but lo and behold...
Staunch feminist, 27, single, has a cat, decries some LOLworthy notion of white male privilege. Seriously, get a clue before you find yourself 38, single, with two or three cats and wholly lacking anything meaningful in your life.
You're right, in the sense that feminism is (easily and often) mocked. But the OP's issue isn't driven by feminism. She's having a quarter-life, existential crisis -- not at all uncommon among those of relative privilege who have time to gaze into their navel, searching for meaning. Feminism is just one of the philosophical tools she's employing to figure it out. Good thing, too, since she's a woman. It helps to be on your own side in life.
Plus, 38, single, a couple of cats.... nothing wrong with that and no reason why that life can't be meaningful.
Maybe it's not, but she is beyond patronizing when talking about male (especially white male) privilege, as if the vast majority of white males throughout time haven't had to risk life and limb for whatever rewards they received (just like anybody else). Oligarchs and the aristocracy are the few outliers, which the OP seems to conflate with all white males. That's why this discourse is laughable.
And you're right, there is nothing wrong with that if that's a conscious choice, but most of the time it doesn't tend to be.
Have you had to risk life and limb for the rewards you've received?
Considering the incredibly high incidence of rape (1/4 women in a college setting), and that 100% of women endure sexual harassment and the threat of sexual violence (which results in emotional trauma and can run the risk of pregnancy, which is a life-threatening condition), while our right to bodily autonomy is curtailed by law, and simultaneously exploited by the "sexual entertainment" (paid rape) industry while we earn less and are discriminated against for our mere existence on a daily basis in tangibly offensive way, I would say women risk life and limb in some pretty unique ways compared to guys. And I'm not going to open this thread anymore because if you think that feminism isn't necessary or women's oppression isn't real, or that a white male's struggles somehow render millennia of oppression of women irrelevant (while those same males have manifested and/or benefited from said oppression), there is nothing I can say on this thread that is going to convince you otherwise, when the world around you, and ample resources available to you have not opened your eyes.
Also, the misogyny directed at Icky in this thread has been extreme. I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed.
This response is so stupid that you need to put the internet away for the day. If 1/4 of all women in college were raped, then let me ask you, WHY would parents send their children to these rape factories, *ahem* I mean these institutions of higher learning? Look up real statistics of rape from the FBI and get the truth; stop spreading false propaganda.
And LOL @ paid rape. Which is it, are women children or adults? If children then let's treat them like it and I can go along with your assertion, but if adults (which I believe) then they certainly have autonomy and a responsibility based on their own choices. A vast vast majority of porn and sexual trade workers go into the industry under their own volition. Stop with the victim mentality, it's sickening, and start treating women like adults.
MOD NOTE: We're done with this. Cut it out.
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I haven't heard one truly good reason why having a lot of money in your bank account can make you happy.
It can't.
That's why you haven't heard a good reason. There isn't one. So stop trying to force money in your bank account as happiness. It's not.
Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank.
As I posted earlier, read this thread about how Mustachianism is not about money: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/can-mustachiansm-be-about-'not-money'/
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MOD NOTE: The rape discussion and contentious "feminism" arguments need to stop. Feel free to directly address OP's concerns, but do not attack OP or each other. Thank you.
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I haven't heard one truly good reason why having a lot of money in your bank account can make you happy.
It can't.
That's why you haven't heard a good reason. There isn't one. So stop trying to force money in your bank account as happiness. It's not.
Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank.
As I posted earlier, read this thread about how Mustachianism is not about money: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/can-mustachiansm-be-about-'not-money'/
ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?
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ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?
Depends on your goal, and that's what some earlier posts have alluded to.
It looks to you like MMM is about having money in the bank because to a lot of people here, the GOAL is retirement (early, for some), in the sense of no longer needing to work. For that specific goal, building capital so that one can live off its returns in their retirement days necessitates putting money in the bank.
So, to answer your question, go figure out what your goal is.
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ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?
Seriously??? Donate it to a cause you believe in. Spend time volunteering and helping the ones that are less fortunate than you. Set up a foundation to help the underprivileged.
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ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?
Find a cause you care about.
I haven't spoken a lot on here about what charities are important to me, as I don't like to be too preachy, but one major one for me is women's literacy in underdeveloped countries. I think that solves so many problems that it's one of the most important structural changes we can make.
The work I do when I FIRE for our foundation will, I feel, be some of the most impactful things I could ever do with my life.
But find out what is right for you.
Pretty much no one here advocates building up way more than you need and living a pampered life.
You may need to do some reading and navel gazing on what will make your life meaningful, to you.
At some point in there, based on where you're at now and what you're seeing life's meaning is, you may have to address the one really serious philosophical problem.
But start to think about life after FIRE, and what contributions you could make (you yourself said he have a responsibility to deserve to be here - what are you doing to uphold that responsibility?), and then don't wait. Start now, or as soon as you figure out what it is.
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OP, I'm not suggesting that you may be ill/trolling because of the assertions you're making (although they seem bizarre to me). I'm suggesting it because people are time and again giving you perfectly reasonable answers to your questions, but then you keep finding a way ask the same question over and over. It's as if you are arguing for its own sake, rather than actually seeking input.
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ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?
Find a cause you care about.
I haven't spoken a lot on here about what charities are important to me, as I don't like to be too preachy, but one major one for me is women's literacy in underdeveloped countries. I think that solves so many problems that it's one of the most important structural changes we can make.
The work I do when I FIRE for our foundation will, I feel, be some of the most impactful things I could ever do with my life.
But find out what is right for you.
Pretty much no one here advocates building up way more than you need and living a pampered life.
You may need to do some reading and navel gazing on what will make your life meaningful, to you.
At some point in there, based on where you're at now and what you're seeing life's meaning is, you may have to address the one really serious philosophical problem.
But start to think about life after FIRE, and what contributions you could make (you yourself said he have a responsibility to deserve to be here - what are you doing to uphold that responsibility?), and then don't wait. Start now, or as soon as you figure out what it is.
It's funny people don't like sounding preachy by talking about the causes they care about too much, but they don't mind sounding preachy if its about how they spend/save their money.
This is a criticism of this entire blog and forum, not a specific person. MMM is not infallible and being "mustachian" does not automatically make one virtuous.
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OP, I'm not suggesting that you may be ill/trolling because of the assertions you're making (although they seem bizarre to me). I'm suggesting it because people are time and again giving you perfectly reasonable answers to your questions, but then you keep finding a way ask the same question over and over. It's as if you are arguing for its own sake, rather than actually seeking input.
People are insulting and/or challenging me, and I am responding. I said 8 posts ago I appreciated everyone's input, I would look into their reading recommendations, and that this thread has confirmed that I need to find more charitable causes I care about.
I was looking for motivation for why I should consider early retirement and be more motivated to save more, and I did not find it. I already have a 100k of networth for Pete's Sake and I'm perfectly capable of working! "Mustachianism" only goes so far and neglects a lot.
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It's funny people don't like sounding preachy by talking about the causes they care about too much, but they don't mind sounding preachy if its about how they spend/save their money.
This is a criticism of this entire blog and forum, not a specific person.
Feel free to think whatever you want.
MMM is not infallible and being "mustachian" does not automatically make one virtuous.
I think probably 100% of us agree with that.
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I was looking for motivation for why I should consider early retirement and be more motivated to save more, and I did not find it.
Then get off your computer and go find some meaning! It clearly isn't here.
:)
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It's funny people don't like sounding preachy by talking about the causes they care about too much, but they don't mind sounding preachy if its about how they spend/save their money.
This is a criticism of this entire blog and forum, not a specific person. MMM is not infallible and being "mustachian" does not automatically make one virtuous.
"Hello, Kettle. My name is Pot. My, aren't you black."
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I was looking for motivation for why I should consider early retirement and be more motivated to save more, and I did not find it.
Then get off your computer and go find some meaning! It clearly isn't here.
:)
Touche! I'm out! Enjoy your money!
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f all of this.
There's no such thing as a birthright as an American. There's only my birthrights as a human being and they should be equal among us all. I AM building something important and my life does have meaning and I am not mentally ill. Its astounding how many people are ready to tell I have none of those things based on some intentionally contentious postings on a personal finance forum!
I don't have a RIGHT to be whomever I want to be. I have a RESPONSIBILITY to be someone worth having on this planet! It's an attitude that I don't seem to see often and its deeply frustrating. And yes, white males seem to be the ones who go around talking about their rights and their earnings while belittling others as cat-ladys.
I haven't heard one truly good reason why having a lot of money in your bank account can make you happy. It's still not good enough and you're all copping out by saying its about "passion" and "freedom".
Despite my hunch that you may be trolling, I'll play along. I share your sense of responsibility as a human as my highest priority in life. It may strike a nerve, but I'll admit that I'm not proud to be an American. I'm very LUCKY to be an American, or born into any first world country in this day and age. That's not to say that I'm necessarily *ashamed* to be an American either. It means that I recognize that it was something out of my control; how can I be proud of it?!
I'm proud of the family I'm raising. I'm proud of the way I treat other humans. I'm proud that I've tried to leave the earth and humanity better off, although I can't be sure that I've succeeded. And yes, I'm proud of the "wealth" that I've accumulated! But that's because I recognize that "money" is a tax credit. While I recognize that one's contribution to humanity is not measured solely on the wealth generated by one's labor, it is still some measure. As Abraham Lincoln said, labor is prior to and superior to capital. Because money is a tax credit, the more justly we can structure our tax system (really all laws), the more virtuous it would be for one to accumulate wealth by producing more than he consumed. If we are all playing a game that is fair, with rules justly enforced, then one could be proud of having points accumulated to make his time on earth more comfortable.
In a way, I'm jealous of those who started out with less than I did! I would like the privilege of knowing that the comfort I enjoy is a result of services I've provided to the group worthy of their tax credits in exchange. If money were the only consideration, I'd desire to start out alongside the poorest in our group, to be sure that I wasn't given some special advantage. But in our real world I would not trade places with them and that's how I know our world is unfair. I know that some are destined to grow up in broken homes, full of violence, receive substandard educations, etc.
While I started out in a poor family with "nothing" in the way of financial or other assets, I realize that I still started out with much more of a head start than most other Americans and to be sure, most other humans. I recognize that humans will always disagree about what actions are most beneficial to others and what constitutes a virtuous life. But a good place to start (for a more just world) would be the recognition that money is just a tax credit. By imposing a tax on an individual or activity, the group/government is telling that person what his obligation is to the group. It follows that any tax credits stored as wealth by an individual/entity represents an obligation of the group to that individual. That fact is true no matter how you slice it. And it's for that reason that the poor will always harbor a disdain for the rich, especially those born rich. And why not. They command, by inheritance only, the service of the poor who must labor to meet their tax obligations.
I share some of your frustration. Because I have an innate sense of fairness (don't we all?) I would have been extremely frustrated to be born rich. I've learned that the answer is not to try to change the rich, but the system. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Rich or poor, we are all just playing a hand we've been dealt. Money won't buy happiness. But making the game more fair would make it a lot easier to sleep at night whether you have money or don't.
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ok, Mustachianism isn't about having lots of money in the bank. Your Mustachianism is about cutting your expenses and living on less, right? So therefore, if you get to the point have excess, (more income than expenses for the indefinite future) what SHOULD you do with it? If it's not about having money in the bank, what does MMM and these forum readers recommend I do with it?
Find a cause you care about.
I haven't spoken a lot on here about what charities are important to me, as I don't like to be too preachy, but one major one for me is women's literacy in underdeveloped countries. I think that solves so many problems that it's one of the most important structural changes we can make.
The work I do when I FIRE for our foundation will, I feel, be some of the most impactful things I could ever do with my life.
But find out what is right for you.
Pretty much no one here advocates building up way more than you need and living a pampered life.
You may need to do some reading and navel gazing on what will make your life meaningful, to you.
At some point in there, based on where you're at now and what you're seeing life's meaning is, you may have to address the one really serious philosophical problem.
But start to think about life after FIRE, and what contributions you could make (you yourself said he have a responsibility to deserve to be here - what are you doing to uphold that responsibility?), and then don't wait. Start now, or as soon as you figure out what it is.
It's funny people don't like sounding preachy by talking about the causes they care about too much, but they don't mind sounding preachy if its about how they spend/save their money.
This is a criticism of this entire blog and forum, not a specific person. MMM is not infallible and being "mustachian" does not automatically make one virtuous.
Blasphemy!
Holy Mehrwert and his thousand Benjamins!
I order to atone for your sins you must now read "Das Kapital" not only once but twice - in German of course. That'll set you straight in more ways than one.
I have to go to contemplate the hoard a bit...
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I was looking for motivation for why I should consider early retirement and be more motivated to save more, and I did not find it.
Then get off your computer and go find some meaning! It clearly isn't here.
:)
Touche! I'm out! Enjoy your money!
Take care, and good luck. I hope you find what you're looking for.
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MOD NOTE: Given OP has left, I don't see any point in leaving this thread open, especially given some of the earlier hostilities. Please PM me or another mod if you have any questions. Thanks!
Locking thread.