Author Topic: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?  (Read 9204 times)

alsoknownasDean

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2183
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« on: January 01, 2015, 07:46:34 PM »
I see lots of people recommending Toyotas and Hondas on this forum. Fair enough, they're good cars.

What I don't see is anyone suggesting anything else to look at. Why not consider a used Focus instead of a used Corolla? A Mazda 3 instead of a Civic?

Surely the other makes (including Korean, European and American brands) have Mustachian vehicles too? The Toyotas and Hondas might be reliable, but that doesn't make everything else automatically unreliable. What if the 'less popular' brands are cheaper to buy in the first place?

I'm saying this as someone who recently bought a used small GM vehicle that was a grand or two cheaper than the equivalent Toyota/Honda. Even if it requires a little more maintenance (more regular timing belt changes in this case), it's probably offset by the cheaper purchase price.


Lanthiriel

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 803
  • Location: Portlandia
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2015, 08:42:49 PM »
I drove a bottom of the line 2001 Ford Escort ZX2 from 2004-2013. I bought it for $5000 with 41k miles on it, put another 72k miles, and sold it for $1300 with a fair amount of self induced body damage. I probably put about $2000 into maintenance total over those nine years. It sipped gas (considering it was built in 2001), averaging about 33 mpg. It was a great little car, and the only reason I sold it was we were moving to Alaska and it seemed silly to pay to ship or drive it up. Frankly, I'm a terrible driver and while some people can do small cars on the ice, I'm not one of them.

In 2009, I bought a 2005 Ford Escape for my husband for $11,000 with 36k miles on it. We brought that one to Alaska, and it now has 81k miles on it and is still worth $7k. The cost to own has been next to nothing. We bought some tires for it and replaced the front brakes--that's it. It does have terrible gas mileage (19 mpg average), but has been a very reliable, comfortable car for the money.

After a year up here, I got a new job and could no longer walk to work. I will fully admit that I'm just not badass enough to bike during Alaska winters (though this one has proven to be ridiculously mild). I really, really, really wanted a Ford Fusion, having had such good luck with my other Fords, but they're so popular right now that they're insanely overpriced. The Focus just seemed a little too small for me (again, a terrible driver) to keep on the road. I like the feel of something heavier. I wound up with a top of the line 2006 Toyota Avalon, that even with its fancypants upgrades was a comparable at 130k miles to a Fusion with 100k, which was the lowest mileage I could find on a Fusion selling for under $10,000.

TL;DR: I love Fords, but the newer models seem to be selling for way too much money even on the used markets.


ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4248
  • Age: 29
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2015, 09:43:50 PM »
Anything oldish with a cult following can be a good-to-own car. 

Main car right now is a '99 Chevy Metro.  Huge online community around these cars.  Wonderful little econoboxes.

I drove a 90s Volvo for a while, and there are plenty of people out there that LOVE 90s Volvos, so there's plenty of information out there.  Super nice cars for the cash too; it seemed crazy to me that I bought my "luxury" car for $2000 and someone back in 1995 had paid almost $40,000.

Our "other car" at the moment is a 1992 Buick Roadmaster Wagon, and it's a solid car.  American cars can be hit or miss but this one is definitely a hit.  Indestructible classic Chevy 350 V8, super comfortable, smooth ride, fantastic visibility, and of course, an amazing amount of cargo space (the reason we have it in the first place).  Good online following like the Volvos; people love these cars.

rayt168

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Location: Florida
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2015, 05:10:23 AM »
I would pick Hyundai or Kia.  Love the warranty.  I have a 2011 Hyundai Elantra.  The only thing that isn't good about these cars are the depreciation rate.  However, I plan on keeping the car for ten years if not more. 

DeltaBond

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
  • Location: U.S.
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2015, 06:30:24 AM »
Reading about cars has been a stress reliever to me, which means that for years now, I've learned a LOT about autos.  Consumer Reports, Edmonds, Car Talk radio show, other people, Car and Driver, news stories on recalls, just anything.  As often as I DO recommend Honda or Toyota to certain people (those who don't already have any preference and basically don't want to have to think about their car other than it working), I don't recommend them for certain years. 

My husband worked for an awesome mechanic who was asked, which are better, Ford or Chevy?  His response was that they all come to him broken, so he had no clue, lol.  We're also currently putting the engine back together that we have cleaned up from a 1985 Mercedes deisel, who's engines from that era actually do last a million miles.  Their next series of engines only lasted around 600,000, ha ha "only", because they adjusted things for performance rather than reliability... but the reason people on here might not recommend mazdas, for example, is that they are made for performance, and those types of mechanical set ups don't allow an engine to last nearly as long.  Plus the maintance on those cars are more spendy due to the performance parts you have to buy.  Especially that rotary engine they used to have.

Cars are such a complicated topic to research, though.  Just think about what you actually need, and from the cars that are available to buy, it can be worth it to pay for a $7 month of Consumer Reports and look up those cars and see what they're all about.  If you do some maintenance yourself and don't overheat an engine, you might do alright with whatever car you buy.  If its a truly bonehead choice, though, you WILL hear about it here.

I personally want a crashworthy car, since I was in a wreck, so I'll never recommend a lightly built hybrid, although there are lots of financial reasons not to buy those cars, already.

I'll stop there, I could write all day about this.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 06:32:56 AM by DeltaBond »

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6072
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2015, 08:21:55 AM »
Reading about cars has been a stress reliever to me, which means that for years now, I've learned a LOT about autos.  Consumer Reports, Edmonds, Car Talk radio show, other people, Car and Driver, news stories on recalls, just anything.  As often as I DO recommend Honda or Toyota to certain people (those who don't already have any preference and basically don't want to have to think about their car other than it working), I don't recommend them for certain years. 

My husband worked for an awesome mechanic who was asked, which are better, Ford or Chevy?  His response was that they all come to him broken, so he had no clue, lol.  We're also currently putting the engine back together that we have cleaned up from a 1985 Mercedes deisel, who's engines from that era actually do last a million miles.  Their next series of engines only lasted around 600,000, ha ha "only", because they adjusted things for performance rather than reliability... but the reason people on here might not recommend mazdas, for example, is that they are made for performance, and those types of mechanical set ups don't allow an engine to last nearly as long.  Plus the maintance on those cars are more spendy due to the performance parts you have to buy.  Especially that rotary engine they used to have.

Cars are such a complicated topic to research, though.  Just think about what you actually need, and from the cars that are available to buy, it can be worth it to pay for a $7 month of Consumer Reports and look up those cars and see what they're all about.  If you do some maintenance yourself and don't overheat an engine, you might do alright with whatever car you buy.  If its a truly bonehead choice, though, you WILL hear about it here.

I personally want a crashworthy car, since I was in a wreck, so I'll never recommend a lightly built hybrid, although there are lots of financial reasons not to buy those cars, already.

I'll stop there, I could write all day about this.

Regarding crash safety, if that is a concern I would recommend looking up each individual model.

2014 Prius: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/toyota/prius/2014
2015 Yaris: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/toyota/yaris-4-door-hatchback

Equal except the Prius scored 'good' for small overlap front, and the Yaris scored 'marginal.'

2014 Honda Insight: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/honda/insight
2015 Hyundai Accent: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/hyundai/accent

Insight scored 'good' across all categories. The Accent scored 'poor' on small overlap front and 'acceptable' for side impacts.

I don't pay much attention to crash ratings. I drive what I want and try not to get hit by anyone. :P

Ipodius

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2015, 08:23:49 AM »
One trick is to look for cars that were / are joint ventures.

A non-US example of this is the Peugeot 107 and Citroen C1, sold in Europe, Asia and parts of Africa. The secret with them is that you can get Toyota reliability at second hand french car prices.

Toyota and PSA (The company that owns Citroen & Peugeot) developed the two mentioned above (and Toyota Aygo) as a joint venture. They are expensive to buy new compared with some other options, and the Aygo keeps it's second hand value very well (as most Toyota's do). However, the second hand values of the C1 and 107 fall like a stone, due to the poor reputation for long term reliability the brands have - but at the end of the day, they are Toyotas. Toyota gearbox, engine, suspension components, electronics, etc etc. They do have some parts that PSA contributed (vents, interior trim, seats) but nothing that's caused any reliability issues - and all of those French parts are on the Aygo and have proven reliable enough for Toyota to accept. (Not to completely bash French cars - the benefit the Aygo got is that it's a lot more inspired and fun to drive than most small Toyotas!) I bought a Toyota Aygo, but if I had it over I would get a C1 or 107, and I've helped a few friends by C1s and 107s.

In addition to the low purchase price, they are small, well engineered, very efficient, cheap to service, simple and well built. Major negative is the tiny size of them - not sure I would want to drive a car this small in a Southern US city surrounded by F150s, for example, and they aren't great on the highway.

An example of this in the US (that has come up on the forum a few times) is the Pontiac Vibe / Toyota Matrix. Same platform underneath, same (Toyota) engine, etc etc - but the Vibe can be found cheaper than the Toyota second hand.

 

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6072
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2015, 08:29:15 AM »
One trick is to look for cars that were / are joint ventures.

A non-US example of this is the Peugeot 107 and Citroen C1, sold in Europe, Asia and parts of Africa. The secret with them is that you can get Toyota reliability at second hand french car prices.

Toyota and PSA (The company that owns Citroen & Peugeot) developed the two mentioned above (and Toyota Aygo) as a joint venture. They are expensive to buy new compared with some other options, and the Aygo keeps it's second hand value very well (as most Toyota's do). However, the second hand values of the C1 and 107 fall like a stone, due to the poor reputation for long term reliability the brands have - but at the end of the day, they are Toyotas. Toyota gearbox, engine, suspension components, electronics, etc etc. They do have some parts that PSA contributed (vents, interior trim, seats) but nothing that's caused any reliability issues - and all of those French parts are on the Aygo and have proven reliable enough for Toyota to accept. (Not to completely bash French cars - the benefit the Aygo got is that it's a lot more inspired and fun to drive than most small Toyotas!) I bought a Toyota Aygo, but if I had it over I would get a C1 or 107, and I've helped a few friends by C1s and 107s.

In addition to the low purchase price, they are small, well engineered, very efficient, cheap to service, simple and well built. Major negative is the tiny size of them - not sure I would want to drive a car this small in a Southern US city surrounded by F150s, for example, and they aren't great on the highway.

An example of this in the US (that has come up on the forum a few times) is the Pontiac Vibe / Toyota Matrix. Same platform underneath, same (Toyota) engine, etc etc - but the Vibe can be found cheaper than the Toyota second hand.

Geo Prism / Toyota Corolla as well.

r3dt4rget

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 182
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2015, 08:35:21 AM »
I see lots of people recommending Toyotas and Hondas on this forum. Fair enough, they're good cars.

What I don't see is anyone suggesting anything else to look at. Why not consider a used Focus instead of a used Corolla? A Mazda 3 instead of a Civic?

Surely the other makes (including Korean, European and American brands) have Mustachian vehicles too? The Toyotas and Hondas might be reliable, but that doesn't make everything else automatically unreliable. What if the 'less popular' brands are cheaper to buy in the first place?

I'm saying this as someone who recently bought a used small GM vehicle that was a grand or two cheaper than the equivalent Toyota/Honda. Even if it requires a little more maintenance (more regular timing belt changes in this case), it's probably offset by the cheaper purchase price.

The reason people recommend the asian brands is their long history of statistically reliable cars. We can all draw from our own experiences or that of close friends/family, but that is anecdotal evidence. When you look at large scale reliability surveys, Honda, Toyota, etc all consistently end up on top.

Posts saying, "I've had a Ford for 25 years without a single repair, so go buy a Ford" is useless information on such a small scale.

marketnonsenses

  • Guest
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2015, 08:40:42 AM »
Not sure about the land of OZ but in the US there is more of a variance between models than of brands. Some brands have very good models and very bad ones. I dont like blanket ideas like all Toyota are great because it is not true.

I think something that skews a lot of the information is 15-20 years ago American manufacturs put all their eggs in the SUV and Truck baskets. So tons of their cheaper cars were trash. Makes it look like Honda and Toyota last longer. That may be true for small cars of a specific era.

deltabelle

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2015, 08:53:02 AM »
I would pick Hyundai or Kia.  Love the warranty.  I have a 2011 Hyundai Elantra.  The only thing that isn't good about these cars are the depreciation rate.  However, I plan on keeping the car for ten years if not more.

We have the same exact car and plan to run it into the ground! 

alsoknownasDean

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2183
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2015, 09:28:35 AM »
One trick is to look for cars that were / are joint ventures.

A non-US example of this is the Peugeot 107 and Citroen C1, sold in Europe, Asia and parts of Africa. The secret with them is that you can get Toyota reliability at second hand french car prices.

Toyota and PSA (The company that owns Citroen & Peugeot) developed the two mentioned above (and Toyota Aygo) as a joint venture. They are expensive to buy new compared with some other options, and the Aygo keeps it's second hand value very well (as most Toyota's do). However, the second hand values of the C1 and 107 fall like a stone, due to the poor reputation for long term reliability the brands have - but at the end of the day, they are Toyotas. Toyota gearbox, engine, suspension components, electronics, etc etc. They do have some parts that PSA contributed (vents, interior trim, seats) but nothing that's caused any reliability issues - and all of those French parts are on the Aygo and have proven reliable enough for Toyota to accept. (Not to completely bash French cars - the benefit the Aygo got is that it's a lot more inspired and fun to drive than most small Toyotas!) I bought a Toyota Aygo, but if I had it over I would get a C1 or 107, and I've helped a few friends by C1s and 107s.

In addition to the low purchase price, they are small, well engineered, very efficient, cheap to service, simple and well built. Major negative is the tiny size of them - not sure I would want to drive a car this small in a Southern US city surrounded by F150s, for example, and they aren't great on the highway.

An example of this in the US (that has come up on the forum a few times) is the Pontiac Vibe / Toyota Matrix. Same platform underneath, same (Toyota) engine, etc etc - but the Vibe can be found cheaper than the Toyota second hand.

Yeah, the joint ventures (and rebadges) are an interesting case in point. Here they were common in the 1980's and 90's (mostly Japanese cars slightly redesigned with Ford/GM badges, but a couple the other way around, like the Toyota Lexcen). The Ford Laser and Mazda 323 were mechanically identical and the later generation looked similar too, but the Mazda fetched more on the used market.

I would pick Hyundai or Kia.  Love the warranty.  I have a 2011 Hyundai Elantra.  The only thing that isn't good about these cars are the depreciation rate.  However, I plan on keeping the car for ten years if not more.

The modern-day Hyundais are very well regarded cars. The heavier depreciation isn't a bad thing for the Mustachian used buyer, though :)

If a vehicle offered by one brand is cheaper used than the equivalent Toyota/Honda, but is still generally considered to be a reliable model (all else being equal), then maybe the cheaper, still reliable vehicle from the other brand is worth the consideration of the Mustachian used buyer :)

After all, there's not that many cars sold today that are complete garbage that'd struggle to do 100,000 miles. :)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 07:08:44 PM by alsoknownasDean »

MoneyCat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1752
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2015, 07:48:54 PM »
Ford automobiles built in the past ten years are pretty reliable.  I drive a Ford Fusion Hybrid and I've never had to do anything with it other than routine maintenance.  Honestly, there is very little difference in terms of reliability between imports and domestic cars anymore and you can get some good deals on used domestic makes because consumers haven't caught onto that fact yet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Katy Stache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2015, 08:14:42 PM »
We recently purchased a 2006 Ford Focus ZXW wagon. My 18 yo daughter and I both love it. I was going to sell it to her but now I am not so sure. This is after driving a Toyota Sienna for 5 years.

Recently I had to borrow a Jeep Cherokee. Beautiful vehicle but it drives horrid. I could feel the gas being wasted at every turn of the wheel.

DeltaBond

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
  • Location: U.S.
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2015, 05:28:07 AM »
I highly recommend researching the Mercedes 123 engines - mid 80s cars.  The diesel engines last a million miles, and most of them out there for sale are only a couple thousand dollars and still have loads of miles left on them.  You can check out the peachparts forums online about that, but if you're looking for a cult following in a car, there's a reason for that one.  THere are some old dudes on those forums who have those cars, living in their retirement years, and they do not mess around with money... and neither will I if there are still those cars for sale out there.

Davids

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 972
  • Location: Somewhere in the USA.
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2015, 06:40:34 AM »
I have a 2006 Toyota with 125K+ miles on it (Bought it new in 2006) and it has been reliable for me. The reason for the high miles is in the early years I used to drive it a lot as I had worked for a former employer very far away. The past couple years I now average 9-10K miles per year on it as my current employer is closer. Great car that I plan on driving into the ground.

chasesfish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3487
  • Age: 38
  • Location: South Carolina
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2015, 07:27:46 AM »
I think the underlying premise is part of the challenge:  This isn't a forum full of experienced car buyers.  I've had two Ford Escorts that became prohibitively expensive around 130,000 miles, then a Saturn that did the same thing at 140,000.  Now I drive a Honda at 153,000 and no major issues to date

marketnonsenses

  • Guest
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2015, 02:11:01 PM »
We recently purchased a 2006 Ford Focus ZXW wagon. My 18 yo daughter and I both love it. I was going to sell it to her but now I am not so sure. This is after driving a Toyota Sienna for 5 years.

Recently I had to borrow a Jeep Cherokee. Beautiful vehicle but it drives horrid. I could feel the gas being wasted at every turn of the wheel.

Are you talking about the new Cherokee? If so I disagree on your comments. They dont do great on MPG but very well for a 4x4 that can go on tails. My dad is averaging in the 30s with his. I think they drive pretty well too.

Eristheunorganized

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2015, 10:42:38 AM »
I feel as though Hondas aren't as reliable as they used to be. I had a 2004 honda civic I bought new (I know...). I put a lot of miles on it, granted. But I did every major maintenance it needed, poured plenty of money into it. Needed a head gasket at 100,000 miles and either had a bad cat converter or tranny. I hear the 90s hondas are great. My 2004 cost me tons, and did not keep on ticking.

I have a newer kia now, which I am loving more. Even if it only makes it 100,000 miles, the service is much less expensive.

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6072
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2015, 10:47:16 AM »
I feel as though Hondas aren't as reliable as they used to be. I had a 2004 honda civic I bought new (I know...). I put a lot of miles on it, granted. But I did every major maintenance it needed, poured plenty of money into it. Needed a head gasket at 100,000 miles and either had a bad cat converter or tranny. I hear the 90s hondas are great. My 2004 cost me tons, and did not keep on ticking.

I have a newer kia now, which I am loving more. Even if it only makes it 100,000 miles, the service is much less expensive.

o.O

That's a really odd cross-diagnosis.

RWD

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4174
  • Location: Mississippi
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2015, 10:49:07 AM »
Another good site to check vehicle reliability is TrueDelta. I particularly like this section which lists all cars (then you can sort by Repair Frequency):
http://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-results/latest

Eristheunorganized

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2015, 11:21:03 AM »
I feel as though Hondas aren't as reliable as they used to be. I had a 2004 honda civic I bought new (I know...). I put a lot of miles on it, granted. But I did every major maintenance it needed, poured plenty of money into it. Needed a head gasket at 100,000 miles and either had a bad cat converter or tranny. I hear the 90s hondas are great. My 2004 cost me tons, and did not keep on ticking.

I have a newer kia now, which I am loving more. Even if it only makes it 100,000 miles, the service is much less expensive.

o.O

That's a really odd cross-diagnosis.

I tend to think cat. I got rid of the car at the that point. You would hit the gas, the car would inch forward, then at some point later, actually accelerate. My buddy who's a mechanic told me that it was the cat. When I traded it in, they told me it was the tranny. I didn't care at that point, because I had to have a reliable personal vehicle for work. I was an on call, on site service tech that used my own rig. I had paid to have the head gasket replaced, the shop didn't fix it correctly and then it developed another problem. So sadly I was in an emergency situation needing to make a big purchase. I had the funds but no time.

DeltaBond

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
  • Location: U.S.
Re: Mustachian car brands - not just Toyota/Honda?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2015, 11:41:31 AM »
I feel as though Hondas aren't as reliable as they used to be. I had a 2004 honda civic I bought new (I know...). I put a lot of miles on it, granted. But I did every major maintenance it needed, poured plenty of money into it. Needed a head gasket at 100,000 miles and either had a bad cat converter or tranny. I hear the 90s hondas are great. My 2004 cost me tons, and did not keep on ticking.

I have a newer kia now, which I am loving more. Even if it only makes it 100,000 miles, the service is much less expensive.

Personal experience has showed me that the late 90s Honda's end up total crap after 150K, as well.  My '14 Accord is already a little wonky.  Used to be a die hard Honda fan, but if I want to buy any car other than a mid 80s benz, I'll be looking at whatever models I'm pondering on consumer reports.  We can all give you our personal experience, but Consumer Reports gets a lot more data than these forums will ever give you.  just sayin