Author Topic: Moving out - forcing the issue  (Read 7850 times)

fumanchu282

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Moving out - forcing the issue
« on: October 02, 2013, 02:57:20 PM »
Hi all, I have a question for you about finding the right time to move out of my parents' house. First, a little background:

I graduated from college in May 2012 and have been employed as a technology consultant since then. I'm turning 24 at the end of this year, and I have been living at home ever since graduation. Because of the travel requirements of my job, I will frequently spend Monday through Thursday on the road (fly out early Monday and return Thursday night). Additionally, I have a serious girlfriend of 3 years who is attending veterinary school (a 4 year program which she began this year) at a university about 2.5 hours away. I spend close to every other weekend with her at her apartment. Although I can spend a few straight weeks at home when I'm in between projects or if I am working locally on a project, on average I generally spend about 2 long weekends per month at home, and the rest elsewhere.

So, up until now I have been living rent free at home. The living situation is great and I get along with my parents and younger siblings very well. There is zero pressure to move out from anyone, we have talked about it and agree that it just doesn't make sense at this juncture. When I think about how these forces will shape my living situation in the future, if I had my way I would stay at home for about another full year and start looking for apartments mid-next-summer.

However, as great as it has been to be living in the suburbs with 5 golf courses in a 5 mile radius, a beautiful house, and free food and rent, my friends have slowly been leaving home and getting their own places downtown, which is where I will be moving eventually. At this point, pretty much everyone I know has made the move and when each moved they invited me to be roommates, which I declined for the reasons above. Well, my final suburbs friend, who is in a similar situation to me, has finally decided to pull the trigger and move out on Jan 1. We have been planning on being roommates for a while now, and he's waited as long as he can at home and feels like he has to get out now.

So, this forces the issue. If I move out at the same time, it looks like we'll be able to find two more acquaintances for a total of 4 of us. This is definitely favorable because it will make it easier and cheaper to find a place in the area we're considering. If I pass on this, it's basically the last train out of the station, and I'll have to wait until next year some time when my friends' leases start expiring before I'll be able to find a roommate.

I've been saving my money the whole time I've been living at home, attempting to be as mustachian as possible. I don't own a car, and the only debt I have is $9332 in student loans 60 months @ 0% on $10,000 principal (started paying $167/month in June of this year). Additionally, I have $16,900 in my 401k for work, $17,300 in a Roth I started on my 18th birthday, and $20,900 in cash and savings. I'm very fortunate to have been able to save all this money, but it'd be nice to give myself another year to fill the coffers. I'm not sure if I'll get much of a promotion/bonus/raise this year, and if I don't my savings rate will plummet once I start having to pay for food, housing, transportation, ...

What's the verdict? I know moving out of the parents' house is a fairly polarizing topic on this forum. Is there anything else I should weigh in this decision that I'm not considering? I don't want to miss the boat with my potential roommates here, but I'm not sure if it's the wisest move or not.

Numbers Man

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 03:04:29 PM »
Time to leave the nest. The only downside is trying to control your money when 4 wild and crazy guys are renting an apartment together and want to go out all the time.

iamlindoro

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 03:06:33 PM »
For me, I would stay in your current situation as long as humanly possible.  You are not really burdening anyone at home as you're infrequently there, and you are likely never to have this opportunity to save rent, utilities, food, etc. again.  Were it me in your situation, I would be targeting when your GF gets out of school as your move out date.  You could be much/most of the way to FI/ER by then if you really work to be frugal and not buy too many toys-- particularly working in tech.  Then you move out and unite your households just as she's starting a lucrative profession too and are FI well before 30. 

TL;DR: You will never have this chance again to avoid the huge cost of rent, utilities, and food.  You will never be this young again.  I would trade my whole net worth to go back to where you are right now and make the above choices.

fumanchu282

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 03:21:40 PM »
You will never be this young again

That's the good news and the bad news at the same time. I definitely am starting to feel like I'm missing out on social life downtown, there is nothing to do out here in the suburbs except play golf and go out to expensive dinners (sounds horrible, I know...)

CommonCents

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 03:22:31 PM »
I generally feel that post college, parents ought to be charging kids for rent, thus I'm on with the move out now (or Jan 1) plan.  Yes, you won't save as much, but it's time to stand on your own now.  Living on your own is quite educational/beneficial, even if more costly.

If your friends have enjoyed their current roommates, they may not even want to change things up when their leases are up.

Does your last friend feel like you promised you'd go with him?  That would also play into my decision, if I had promised or not.

iamlindoro

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 03:25:40 PM »
You will never be this young again

That's the good news and the bad news at the same time. I definitely am starting to feel like I'm missing out on social life downtown, there is nothing to do out here in the suburbs except play golf and go out to expensive dinners (sounds horrible, I know...)

Moving downtown will only replace the golf with other, more expensive habits and more pressure as those things are readily available.  If the goal is to be social and do fun and expensive things, then move out of your rent free situation and into a stimulating social environment.

Speaking perhaps for myself (but I hope for most) my goal at your age would be to spend the latter few years of my 20s, all of my 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and god willing beyond, laughing at those toiling away working.  Speaking again for myself, my most social and fun years have been my 30s, not my 20s, and that's from someone who DID spend too much in my 20s on rent, drinking, eating, partying, and going out.

iamlindoro

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 03:29:38 PM »
I generally feel that post college, parents ought to be charging kids for rent, thus I'm on with the move out now (or Jan 1) plan.  Yes, you won't save as much, but it's time to stand on your own now.  Living on your own is quite educational/beneficial, even if more costly.

While I think it's reasonable if his parents wanted to charge him rent, if he were of a mind to use the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to have high income and practically zero expenses to accelerate early retirement/financial independence by potentially years or decades, why should he move out other than our society pressures us to do so?  In cultures around the world, 3 and 4 generations live in the same household without everyone becoming all emotionally stunted.

It feels like this answer isn't as common on this site as it once was, but I strongly urge you to stay at home!  Sacrifice for a *very* short time now (just a few years) will pay huge dividends later.

onehappypanda

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2013, 03:33:54 PM »
I have to admit, I think there's a lot of value in moving out on your own and having to support yourself like a grown-up. Even if you save some cash living at home, you don't develop the same independence and social skills that you get living on your own and paying for your own ish.

But I'm biased - I moved out on my own when I was 18 and never looked back. I do think it equipped me for "real life" better than folks that lived at home, even though I may not have saved as much money. I also would never move in with a significant other who had not had his own place, or lived with a non-family roommate, at some point in his life. Living with people who aren't your family is a really good way to build your negotiation skills, and you'll need those if you intend to live with your girlfriend in the future.

The only reason I'd consider staying at home a decent choice for you is because it sounds like you're rarely there anyway. And in that case, I can see why it wouldn't make sense to pay for rent for a place you won't really live at 90% of the time.

So it's a toss-up, but I'd still argue for the value of living on your own in the near future.

Catbert

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2013, 03:40:27 PM »
Don't move out because you think it's your last opportunity for a year.  There is always a roommate who wants to move early because of job loss, wanting to move in with GF/BF, or not getting along with other roommates.

fumanchu282

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 03:43:42 PM »
I generally feel that post college, parents ought to be charging kids for rent, thus I'm on with the move out now (or Jan 1) plan.  Yes, you won't save as much, but it's time to stand on your own now.  Living on your own is quite educational/beneficial, even if more costly.

While I generally think that it's just an American social stigma that make us feel like parents should charge their kids rent, if I were to lose or quit my job, start to take advantage of my situation in an unreasonable way, or just plain stop being grateful for how fortunate I am to have this opportunity, I can assure you that I would have to start paying rent the very next day. Where do you think my student loan came from? ;)

I lived in an apartment for three years in college, so I know what it's like to be out on my own. I can cook for myself and others, I've been doing my own laundry since I was 12, etc. Right after graduation I noticed how frantic many of my friends and acquaintances, who had lived in dorms or campus housing for four years straight, were to move in to their own places. Moving out doesn't have the same luster for me as is did/does for them, I think, because I've been-there-done-that already.

Does your last friend feel like you promised you'd go with him?  That would also play into my decision, if I had promised or not.

No, I've been very clear about my timelines and expectations. I basically told him my target date (late next year), and he said he'd try to hold out as long as he could. He feels like he's wasting his youth a lot more than I do, and he's ready to go

StarryC

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2013, 04:00:18 PM »
I don't know where you are, but how much would the rent be for 4 guys to share a place? It could be like $300 a month in some places.   Is "downtown" closer to where your girlfriend lives? I think you should do it because it will be fun, and educational.  But, if moving into "downtown" means paying $1000 a month, that would be different.

fumanchu282

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 04:29:28 PM »
I don't know where you are, but how much would the rent be for 4 guys to share a place? It could be like $300 a month in some places.   Is "downtown" closer to where your girlfriend lives? I think you should do it because it will be fun, and educational.  But, if moving into "downtown" means paying $1000 a month, that would be different.

I suppose that would have been a good thing to include in my initial blurb. The whole apartment search is in its nascent stages, but the discussed price range thus far has been $800-1100 per person. City livin' ain't cheap. Without starting an argument about savings rate calculations here, I'll say that after I deduct the 1/12 of $17,500 that I pay into my 401k and after I deduct taxes, that leaves me with about $3135 per month of take-home pay. This happens to mean that the 800-1100 range is 25-35% of my take-home pay, which I've seen quoted as the safe range for debt to income ratio for rent. I'm sure some mustachians would disagree with this "safe" range though.

grantmeaname

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 04:35:25 PM »
Don't let the formulas and ratios distract you. The goal is to spend as little as possible on rent while still getting a place to live that you're satisfied with. If you can do so for $600, don't talk yourself into $1100 because it's a ratio that many Americans approach. Figure out how little home you can get by on happily, and then figure out the cheapest possible way to get that much home.

fumanchu282

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 04:47:22 PM »
I'm your age, and this is what I would do:

1. If you and your girlfriend are serious, give thought to whether this is a "rest of your life" kind of relationship. If it is, get engaged.
2. Live at home until your girlfriend finishes vet school. Seriously there is nothing better to start out your married life with than a pile of cash to smooth the way, especially if she's going to have a whack of student loans that need paying off.
3. Marry shortly after graduation and move wherever makes sense for both you careers, possibly buying a house if finances permit.

I lived at home for 2 years after college (and paid nominal rent, but that's beside the point) and it was one of the best experiences ever. It did wonders for my bond with my parents, saved a fortune, and while I didn't gain all the "independent living" skills, they aren't rocket science and you'll pick them up quickly enough later.

It probably is that kind of relationship. Although we're not ready to get engaged yet, and we certainly wouldn't get married until after she graduates vet school. And there will be a mountain of student loans in her future. As in, she'll be lucky if she can work enough during the summer and get enough scholarship money to keep it under $150k.

FrugalZony

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2013, 04:52:06 PM »
While I generally think that it's just an American social stigma that make us feel like parents should charge their kids rent, if I were to lose or quit my job, start to take advantage of my situation in an unreasonable way, or just plain stop being grateful for how fortunate I am to have this opportunity, I can assure you that I would have to start paying rent the very next day. Where do you think my student loan came from? ;)

I lived in an apartment for three years in college, so I know what it's like to be out on my own. I can cook for myself and others, I've been doing my own laundry since I was 12, etc. Right after graduation I noticed how frantic many of my friends and acquaintances, who had lived in dorms or campus housing for four years straight, were to move in to their own places. Moving out doesn't have the same luster for me as is did/does for them, I think, because I've been-there-done-that already

If you had never ever experienced being independent, I would strongly encourage the thought of checking out of "Hotel Mama". But as you have had that experience and your parents seem to be very supportive, think about what you have told us....:
You would essentially be paying 800+ bucks to have a place that you'd end up using two weekends a month!
Is that worth it?

I mean you are never ever there now, if you rented with your buddies, you'd be there two weekends and pay 800 bucks for the "buddy living experience"?
You can always crash on a couch if you want to go out with the guys on any given weekend you are in town.
By staying put you could even afford blowing some of those 800 bucks on booze (not all please!!) and still come out way ahead.
For me that really is a no brainer in your situation.
All that is considering your folks are fine with this, you are comfortable there etc.
You could get to FI so much faster doing this and really what's another year?
There will be other opportunities. Roommates move out, people change.....etc
Also you might end up moving in with your girlfriend at some point.....

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2013, 05:18:57 PM »
Ok, so "technically" you're living with your parents. But in practice, you're just visiting a lot. Two long weekends a month, plus the occasional longer visit, to me sounds like you're visiting your parents a lot.

If you move in with a friend, would you be spending about as much time with them as you do with your parents? I don't know exactly where you live, but $800-$1,100 to share an apartment with other people for two long weekends a year plus a few weeks...how much would it be to get a hotel room? True, you wouldn't have anywhere to store all your stuff (unless your parents give you some attic space, or you keep it at your girlfriend's place, or you just don't have more than would fit in your car), but sounds like an option. And if you move out, will you never visit your parents again? Or would there still be a weekend here and there?

From what's posted, I'd keep the current arrangement. Save the money you would have spent being a roommate with your friend(s). Feel free to spend some of that money to go visit and do stuff that kids your age do.

You say you plan on moving to that area eventually anyways. Save the rest of the money for a downpayment. If you don't buy a house...darn, sucks to have all that extra money doesn't it? Plus, plans change.

StarryC

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2013, 05:27:20 PM »
Yeah, $1,100 each sounds like a lot to me.  It isn't " too much" for you to afford, of course, but especially with your travel schedule, the number of people, and the idea that you have an alternative it seems like too much.

I'd see if you can convince the guys to get a more "urban" or "industrial" or "edgy" or "authentic" space with a rent closer to $2000 a month.  Alternatively, look for a space with one particularly small or undesirable room, and negotiate for lower rent to take the worse space because you won't be there as much. 

Or, make a deal with the 3 remaining guys that you'll buy them a super awesome pull out couch/ futon if they let you sleep on it one or two Fridays/Saturdays a month. 

Daleth

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2013, 07:04:45 PM »
While I think it's reasonable if his parents wanted to charge him rent, if he were of a mind to use the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to have high income and practically zero expenses to accelerate early retirement/financial independence by potentially years or decades, why should he move out other than our society pressures us to do so?  In cultures around the world, 3 and 4 generations live in the same household without everyone becoming all emotionally stunted.

It feels like this answer isn't as common on this site as it once was, but I strongly urge you to stay at home!  Sacrifice for a *very* short time now (just a few years) will pay huge dividends later.

I'm with you on that. I really see no point whatsoever in paying rent on an apartment when he's only there for two long weekends a month.

ATL

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 07:38:20 PM »
Based on what you mentioned, you have a good head on your shoulders as is already reflected in your impressive money management skills. Is it nice to be able to live independently? Sure, but some people in there 20s need that in order to increase their maturity level but it doesn't sound like that's your issue. As pps have mentioned, if you are only around some weekends because of your work and visiting your gf, then that's a lot of money to pay out every month for that privilege. If you're feeling like you need to hang out downtown with your friends, just crash at their place overnight and take them out to dinner as a thanks.

travelbug

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 09:06:56 PM »
in your scenario I would stay where you are. It will give you a greta finanical foundation to start yoru adult life with and you are never there.
If you go out on the two one of the weekends you are back can you not just crash on the floor of your mates apartment for easy access to bars and friends?
For $800 a month, and you being there only 3-5 nights, you could stay in a hotel if you had to!
I think you would be throwing money away. Save it.

smedleyb

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 09:23:12 PM »
To be honest I never understood the resistance some posters have to young workers living with parents in order to maximize their savings and pay off debt.  In the quest for economic efficiency, its hard to imagine a more optimal situation than young mustachians living with parents and siblings to build an investment base and, more importantly, to stay connected for just a little longer.  If the communication and respect is there, stay exactly where you are as you plot your path to financial freedom.  Investing 40-50K over the next several years (money saved from not paying housing costs) will yield tremendous fruit in 20, 30, 40 years.  As a parent I would be thrilled if I could provide my child with a little boost in the beginning to get started on the right path.   

StarryC

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 10:09:11 PM »
I think there are a couple of reasonable reasons for the general cultural opposition.

 1) By living with your parents, especially without paying for food/ utilities you are burdening them.  Perhaps in a pretty small way, but for some parents who might move into a smaller house or something, it could be a larger financial burden.  In the US, where plenty of people don't start thinking of retirement until the kids are "grown up" the time between say 50 and 65 can be really important for saving. 

2) Traditionally, for the past 80-200 years or so, one element of successful family formation was the ability of a young man to support a non-income earning wife and a potentially large number of children.  If a young man can't "afford" to support himself in a separate dwelling, pay for his own food, utilities, transportation, etc.  that would be stigmatizing.  As it is inappropriate for women to ask on the first date "how much money have your got saved up and how much is your salary" one way for men to signal that and women to see it was for a guy to be proving the ability by doing it.  Now, I realize this is pretty gender normative, not the way things work 100% of the time, and in fact might be the opposite of good finances, but plenty of cultural things are, and I think, in general, culturally this was the way people thought of things.  The culture doesn't "think" only about what is financially best.  Signally one's status and experience is a large part of almost all cultures.   

3) I'm not sure if this part of the culture, but it is the conventional wisdom among my friends:  If you have only ever lived at home, you do not realize how much your parents do to keep things running.  Bills, cleaning, yard work, basic maintenance etc.  When you move out and have to start doing all of that stuff your self it is overwhelming, stressful, and there is a steep learning curve.  I went through that curve from 18-23, and I went through it with other people who were on it.  I don't want to be someone's first roommate ever again!

4) The parent child relationship can be difficult for adult children living at home.  Parents can maintain their feelings of wanting to protect and instruct the child, and the child feels like they no longer need it.  Either, there are conflicts at home, or the child "gives in" and behaves like a child-child rather than an adult.  Not 100% of the time, but sometimes.

5) Many adult children are uncomfortable having sex with their parents in the next room, and many parents would be uncomfortable with "overnight guests".  If both people in a couple live with parents, that is a problem.  I'm not sure how other cultures where everyone lives at home until marriage manage this.  Maybe they are more chaste, or less prudish.

chasesfish

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2013, 04:16:13 AM »
Do it. You will never be able to get back that time in your life where you're around all your friends in your 20s.  I moved to the suburbs too early and have always regretted missing out on that.

agnogenic

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Re: Moving out - forcing the issue
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2013, 09:30:27 AM »
If you are serious about your girlfriend and plan on getting married to her some day, keep in mind that she will have a load of debt and some pretty bad job prospects. (My wife is a vet who graduated at the top of her class and still can only find part time work. Some of her friends have 2 or 3 jobs to keep up with student loans etc.)

There was supposed to be a shortage of vets caused by the baby boomers going into retirement. Due to the financial crash most of these vets are still working. Also due to the bad economy, a lot of people are not spending as much on health care for their pets as they used to. So you have a double whammy of more people chasing a smaller number of dollars.

I would say that you have a really good thing going on right now with your parents. If you weren't traveling all of the time, I think moving downtown would be a fun thing to do, but it would be stupid expensive for a couple of days a month. Instead of blowing that much money a month on what is essentially a fancy storage locker, throw it into your 'stache
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 09:40:41 AM by agnogenic »