Moving in with elderly parents - rent question

[Daisy]

I moved in with my elderly parents at the end of last year after my mother had an amputation and needed 24 hour care. My father is also using a wheelchair due to neuropathy and needs help with meals and getting stuff for him. I used to own my own condo and had total privacy. Now my privacy is pretty much gone. My father asked me to move in with them to help out as they felt overwhelmed. I myself am recovering from a brain injury and can't handle stressful environments too well. I FIREd the year before all of this happened with my mother.

I took over paying their bills, going with them to doctors appointments, and managing the caregivers that provide the nursing and medical care and food preparation for both of them.

After taking over the financial management, I also found that the previous caregiver (without any supervision from the siblings or me previously) had been stealing stuff from the house and using the credit card my father gave her to purchase groceries and stuff (since they can't drive) to purchase her own groceries and other things. I may not have found this out if I hadn't moved in with them. The stealing was to the tune of $700-$1000 per month over the course of 10 years.

I've also streamlined other expenses in the home.

We are four siblings. One other sibling lives in the same city and is always on business trips so not around for the day to day care. The other two siblings moved out of state. One moved right before the amputation, and the other about 6 months after, knowing my parents needed more caring for. We all get along pretty well, but I am starting to feel the pressure of the constant expectation that I am the only one around for the day to day stuff, and my other siblings' expectations that I am the one to do all of this, mostly because I am FIREd.

The big question is should I be paying rent to my parents? I used to own a condo and had my own expenses but just recently sold the condo. I had said originally that my FIREd budget did not allow me to pay the costs of my condo AND rent to my parents. Now the condo costs are gone, so I thought I would start contributing. Note that I do pay my share of the food costs.

However, at CM*TO and talking to @SnakesintheGrass and talking to some friends, they feel since I am providing this care and management of the home that I should not be paying rent. There is a lot of "unpaid labor" I do. I don't mind the labor, although sometimes I feel it is unfair that most of the burden falls on me and I didn't decide to move away to another state like two of my siblings. I don't know what's fair among all of the siblings.

The at home care is pretty expensive and they probably have funds for about 5 years at this rate, then we can tap into the home equity for future needs. However, my siblings are all excited that I pay rent as that would help my parents with the current high costs.

After this feedback from others, I am wondering what the expectations as far as rent go should be for me in this situation. If my parents do need extra financial help, shouldn't all siblings be contributing? Is me paying rent a fair thing?

[JoJo]

How many hours per month would you say you are doing care/management?

Is there any way to recover $ from the previous caregiver? 

[terran]

So it sounds like your siblings are pushing for you to pay rent? Do your parents have an opinion one way or the other?

You should certainly be compensated in some way for taking on more of the care responsibilities. If your siblings expect you to pay rent while providing care, then they should each chip in to pay you for their share of the care you're providing. When put that way they may not feel so bad about you living there for "free."

[MayDay]

I don't think you should pay rent.

Add up the monthly hours they'd each need to provide to pull their fair share. Let them each k ow your be happy to pay 600$ in rent (or whatever the going rate is for renting a room), and in return you'll expect each of them to provide 20 hours a week of in person care, or you can bill them at a rate of 20$ an hour if they want you to continue handling it.

Offer to move out if they don't think that's reasonable. Let them know they can feel free to hire someone to be the household manager. I'm sure that comes cheap! Haha, not.

Frankly free rent is a steal if you are carrying the full burden of care.

[Indio]

If you had to hire an in home caregiver would you expect them to pay rent?
Would you expect to pay an in home caregiver a salary?
Would you ask the caregiver to cover their share of utilities and food?

Just because you are living in your parents home doesn't mean that all of the siblings should be off the hook for contributing and sharing in the caregiving. You should plan vacation time and downtime, where they have to provide assistance.

[Daisy]

How many hours per month would you say you are doing care/management?

That's hard to say. I do some stuff here and there throughout the day. Then when one of them ends up in the hospital (3 visits in one month), it's almost a full time job with OT.

Is there any way to recover $ from the previous caregiver?

I'd rather this not be the focus of this discussion. It is annoying that this lady took advantage of my parents, but it is hard to prove legally and we don't want to spend time and effort on this with all of the other stuff that needs to be done. I just brought it up as a way to show what I have done while being in the house. That savings alone would be like me paying rent!

[Daisy]

If you had to hire an in home caregiver would you expect them to pay rent?
Would you expect to pay an in home caregiver a salary?
Would you ask the caregiver to cover their share of utilities and food?

Well there is always a full time caregiver that takes care of the medical stuff for the both of them, prepares meals, changes diapers. My mother has a prosthesis but needs help getting in and out of bed, showering, getting in and out of her wheelchair. She does not walk. We pay someone to spend the night to keep an eye out too.

Just because you are living in your parents home doesn't mean that all of the siblings should be off the hook for contributing and sharing in the caregiving. You should plan vacation time and downtime, where they have to provide assistance.

Good question. This is another point of contention with my siblings. I did plan to travel a bit while FIREd. I just went on a two week trip and then a four day long weekend away.

My father recently entered the hospital after a possible stroke/loss of consciousness and I had to delay my two week trip and cancelled plans, then rebooked after he came back home. My brother that lives in town was out on a business trip. So I asked my brother that moved away recently and is on severance after being laid off from a job so had time available, to please come down and help with our father in the hospital and my mother at home. He rejected this with ¨do you expect me to just jump on a plane?¨. I was quite annoyed with the two siblings that moved away and responded that ¨now I feel like a fool for cancelling my vacation if no one is willing to help¨.

So after this episode my oldest brother said we should all announce when we will be out of town, especially for more than a week.

I did snap back after thinking about it with ¨well no one asked me for persmission to move to another state, so I don´t need to ask for permission when I go out of town¨.

I do admit after my brain injury I don´t handle stress well and my sister accused me of a bad attitude.

[BECABECA]

I don’t think you should pay rent, you’ve been asked to move in and help them with stuff. If they hadn’t asked for this, you’d have continued to live in your own place with your privacy and your share of helping your parents would be more in line with your other siblings. You can think about what you’re providing and what you’re getting, and if you were to price it out on the open market, they’d probably be hard pressed to find someone to do what you’re doing in lieu of just rent of one of the bedrooms. If your siblings give you a hard time about this, you should offer them the opportunity to move in and take over the parental support instead of you. That should help them realize just how sweet of a deal they’re getting.

Another thing to think about is that while at home care is expensive, it’s a ton cheaper than moving into a skilled nursing facility. Any amount of time that they’re able to postpone that move because of your help is saving a ton of money.

You should probably have a sit down with your siblings to really talk about what this help is entailing, how long you’re going to be able to provide it and what the plan will be when it’s too much for you. The risk is that by you being the de facto caregiver, your siblings don’t also pitch in when support is needed. You’re gonna need breaks, vacations, and you can’t provide caregiving indefinitely. All of your siblings should be thinking about what care and support they will be pitching in during this time: can they provide money, time, live in care in a couple years to give you a break? This shouldn’t be all on you, and with them wanting you to pay rent, it sounds like it currently is, so get expectations reset right away!

[Daisy]

So it sounds like your siblings are pushing for you to pay rent? Do your parents have an opinion one way or the other?

One of my brothers did ask if I was paying rent, and my sister agrees with him.

I think my parents are happy I am with them. They haven´t mentioned it. My father had presented it as ¨please sell your condo and move in with us¨.

You should certainly be compensated in some way for taking on more of the care responsibilities. If your siblings expect you to pay rent while providing care, then they should each chip in to pay you for their share of the care you're providing. When put that way they may not feel so bad about you living there for "free."

Interesting suggestion.

[FIFoFum]

Not only should you not be paying rent, you should be paid a stipend amount for the care-giving that exceeds what you'd have to pay a live-in caregiver. Your siblings need to STFU about you ADDITIONALLY paying more than you're already giving.

You didn't ask, but the first question I'd ask is: Do you WANT to continue living with your parents and providing care? And if so, how many hours/how much care are you ok with providing? For how long?

Once you figure that out, then look into what additional care might be needed and at what cost. Make sure you build in normal and nature breaks for yourself too. It's unreasonable that all care should fall on you or that your siblings shouldn't be contributing equitably in some way - whether through labor or $ - if that's what your family is planning.

This sounds like a family boundaries question more than a financial one.

[Catbert]

As you've presented the facts you should not need to pay rent. The care your parents need will increase over time. What do your parents think?  Siblings?

Also do your parents and siblings believe that your parents need live-in care?  Or do they believe you're the unemployed lives-in-her-parent's-basement leach?  They may need a reality check by spending some time there while you take a vacation.

Is there a gender component to this?  I assume from your name that you're female.  Are your siblings male and expect you as the sister to handle it all (and pay rent).

[Daisy]

As you've presented the facts you should not need to pay rent. The care your parents need will increase over time. What do your parents think?  Siblings?

Also do your parents and siblings believe that your parents need live-in care?  Or do they believe you're the unemployed lives-in-her-parent's-basement leach?  They may need a reality check by spending some time there while you take a vacation.

Is there a gender component to this?  I assume from your name that you're female.  Are your siblings male and expect you as the sister to handle it all (and pay rent).

I am female. I have one female sibling and two male siblings.

Don´t get me wrong, my sibling that lives in town comes on the weekends to visit and if he had been in town when my father was in the hospital he would have helped what he could. Although he works full time so doésn´t have the time to allocate as I do.

The siblings that live out of town participate in decisions and do what they can. One brother is looking into tapping the home equity after I asked him to. My sister was able to get her job to work remotely when she comes down to visit. She did three months this summer after her lease expired on her apartment. But now she moved back away. I´m not sure how often she plans to come.

[kei te pai]

Call a family meeting. You need to work as a team.
My point of view, you should not pay rent or any portion of utilities. Pay 1/3 of groceries.
One long weekend a month and two weeks every 3-4 months where you leave and have NO responsibilty for co-ordinating care.
What you are giving up is freedom and choice. Ok in the short to medium term if your siblings and parents are supportive and appreciative, not sustainable without that.
This will not go on for ever, but the fracturing of family relationships will outlive your parents if  it worsens.

[Villanelle]

So there is a professional caregiver, in addition to you?  And  that is round-the-clock?

Is there any way you could cut back on that care, by at least a few hours a day, since you are there?

That's the only thing giving me any pause in you not paying rent.  Even with that, I'd say that if your parents are happy with the arrangements, it's really not the business of the siblings.  This doesn't really have anything to do with them.  But if you aren't willing to draw that line and deal with the fallout, then paying rent but being compensated for your time and expenses makes sense.  You could do this several way--set a fair room-rental rent and then subtract the amount that covers an estimate of your monthly hour times a fair fee for unskilled labor.  Or you could actually calculated each month the time you spend and deduct that.  If you go with the former, I'd leave some room for changing the math if their conditions change and you end up regularly increasing the time spent.

Caregiving is so difficult, especially when it is for someone you love.  I did it for my grandmother and it was exhausting.  When I started, ti was a very small job and she offered me a few hundred bucks a month.  As the job got bigger, it was to the point that I couldn't really even leave to buy groceries without getting someone to stay with her.  I didn't feel comfortable asking for more money, though i was damn sure working hard enough to warrant it.  After she passed, the heirs (her 3 children, including my parent) gave me a lump sum in acknowledgement of what I did.  it would have cost them probably 20x more per month if they'd have had to pay for round-the-clock care.  I certainly didn't pay rent, although had I not lived there, I'd have been living with my fiance in an apartment we selected before the situation arose, so paying a second rent would have meant it cost me more to help her than to not help her.

But other than occasional visits from hospice nurses and times when kind neighbors (friends of hers) would sit with her for 45 minutes while I bought groceries, I was the only caregiver.  Again, at first I could pretty much come and go and I was there to run some errands and help with household chores and cooking.  But by the end, it was pretty intense.  So I understand how tough this stuff can be, but it also sounds like you are supplementing paid caregivers who are always there. 

[Daisy]

Not only should you not be paying rent, you should be paid a stipend amount for the care-giving that exceeds what you'd have to pay a live-in caregiver. Your siblings need to STFU about you ADDITIONALLY paying more than you're already giving.

You didn't ask, but the first question I'd ask is: Do you WANT to continue living with your parents and providing care? And if so, how many hours/how much care are you ok with providing? For how long?

Once you figure that out, then look into what additional care might be needed and at what cost. Make sure you build in normal and nature breaks for yourself too. It's unreasonable that all care should fall on you or that your siblings shouldn't be contributing equitably in some way - whether through labor or $ - if that's what your family is planning.

This sounds like a family boundaries question more than a financial one.

Well it has been a year since I moved in. The situation is all right. I knew my privacy would be gone. Sometimes it wears on me. My mother has never been happier and she had to go through all of the stages of grief after losing her leg. I think she is finally at "acceptance".

My mother is 85 years old and my father is 88 years old. I don't know how many years they have left to live. I really don't know what I have signed up for. Initially it seemed like a good idea to move in.

I think the caregivers appreciate that I am here and able to coordinate all of the stuff and come to me with questions and requests. Since they can't leave my mother home alone so I do all of the out-of-the-house stuff like going to doctors, picking up medications and groceries, etc.

[Daisy]

Call a family meeting. You need to work as a team.
My point of view, you should not pay rent or any portion of utilities. Pay 1/3 of groceries.
One long weekend a month and two weeks every 3-4 months where you leave and have NO responsibilty for co-ordinating care.
What you are giving up is freedom and choice. Ok in the short to medium term if your siblings and parents are supportive and appreciative, not sustainable without that.
This will not go on for ever, but the fracturing of family relationships will outlive your parents if  it worsens.

My siblings are appreciative and have expressed it. We really all do get along well. I do worry as I am put under stress and "lash out" due to my brain injury and not handling stress well, that it could hurt our relationships, but I hope not. I used to be able to handle stress well and am not known as the "lashing out" type, but my sister has noticed that I do this now.

We all communicate with a Whatsapp chat when decisions need to be made.

[Sibley]

First, I would stop blaming all of your lashing out on your brain injury. Because honestly, if I moved in with my parents, had no privacy, was a pretty much full time caregiver for 2 disabled parents, and had my siblings giving me grief about paying rent, I'd lash out too. Its called being human. Your brain injury may make it worse, but it's not causing it.

Next, I really like the idea of you taking a long weekend off every month/couple weeks away every couple months. You get a break, and your siblings get to find out exactly how much you do, either because they're doing it themselves or they have to pay someone else to do it.

I suspect that if you added up the time you spend weekly on helping your parents that it's easily a full time job. So no, you should not pay rent. You should contribute to groceries and utilities. Spend a week or so with a notebook and note down how much time you spend on various tasks. Then add it up. Then look up the going rate to hire someone to do what you do, and do the math. Then, next time your sibling(s) grumbles about paying rent, you've got hard data. My guess is it's far more than what rent would be.

[Miss Piggy]

Daisy, you may find this recent advice column interesting, along with the reader comments. It seems pretty close to your situation, with the exception of the full-time caregivers.

https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/carolynhax/s-2285109

[Omy]

My SIL just moved in with my MIL. SIL needed a place to stay, and MIL is starting to get forgetful but is mostly independent. We ALL encouraged SIL to move in - including MIL. SIL was reluctant but we told her she would be getting free rent - and if she stayed long term, she would get the house when MIL passes away.

We (DH and I and other sister and her husband) all recognize that SIL being there helps us all - and will help MIL live her best life in her remaining years. If additional care is needed in the future we will chip in as necessary. So no...I don't think you should pay rent.

[pk_aeryn]

First, I would stop blaming all of your lashing out on your brain injury. Because honestly, if I moved in with my parents, had no privacy, was a pretty much full time caregiver for 2 disabled parents, and had my siblings giving me grief about paying rent, I'd lash out too. Its called being human. Your brain injury may make it worse, but it's not causing it.

I don’t think this comment is helpful to the OP.  I’ll stand corrected if it turns out your career is brain damage research, but personality changes from brain damage is extremely well documented.

OP, my sympathies are with you and I hope your siblings understand you’re not entirely in control of your behavior after brain damage. It sounds like you’re doing remarkably well given the very stressful circumstances.

[mistymoney]

I'd offer the role to the siblings and see who was up for it.

No, no rent. They asked you to move in.

Case closed.

[ender]

Tell your siblings that you'd be happy to pay 1/4 the cost for a full time live-in caregiver if they would rather pay that instead.

It really feels like they are happy for you to give up your life for their parents without realizing what that means.

You could even do it like, "hey you all made me a bit curious how much it would cost if we were to replace what I'm doing with professional help. It looks like $X/year to take care of Mom and Dad, which is a lot - I'd be happy to knock rent off my portion of this if you all chip in your share of that."


I don't know either how open your are with siblings on finances but it's possible they don't realize you actually financially can retire, too, and think you "retired" by taking advantage of your parents.

[Daisy]

First, I would stop blaming all of your lashing out on your brain injury. Because honestly, if I moved in with my parents, had no privacy, was a pretty much full time caregiver for 2 disabled parents, and had my siblings giving me grief about paying rent, I'd lash out too. Its called being human. Your brain injury may make it worse, but it's not causing it.

I don’t think this comment is helpful to the OP.  I’ll stand corrected if it turns out your career is brain damage research, but personality changes from brain damage is extremely well documented.

OP, my sympathies are with you and I hope your siblings understand you’re not entirely in control of your behavior after brain damage. It sounds like you’re doing remarkably well given the very stressful circumstances.

Thanks for the support. Really many people don't understand brain injuries and sometimes I don't understand all the ramifications myself. I probably wouldn't of understood it if I hadn't come through it. In fact when I went back to work after the disability my manager said I was doing stuff slowly and I reminded him about the brain injury but he told me I looked fine. Sometimes I don't have the vocabulary to express what's going on and didn't have good direction from my doctors on this. But I am doing remarkably really well thank God.

I don't blame the original response to me because brain injuries are invisible and many people don't understand it. Maybe it's a teachable moment!

[Dancin'Dog]

You are there to help your parents.  I can't believe anyone would consider that you should pay rent.  (I wonder what the going rate is for living with two old people that need round-the-clock care?!)


You are giving yourself.  It is a wonderful thing that you are doing.  Your siblings should be extremely grateful.  I know that your parents are. 


Your siblings are living normal carefree lives.  Time is frozen for you.  After your time caring for your folks is over you'll look at the calendar and feel like those years didn't really exist for you, because you gave them.  The love that you are giving comes at a steep cost. 


I've been a caregiver.  It is very stressful.  You never know "what's next" or when the job will end.  You will be feeling all kinds of mixed emotions throughout the whole time you are caring for them.  You are doing a wonderful thing. 

[Daisy]

I fully FIREd on my own finances without needing free rent. I was retired about 5 months before my mother's amputation. My plans did include a lot of travel.

My siblings are not trying to be malicious I just don't think they have thought it through. I posted this thread because I don't know what the norm is in cases like these.

[Linea_Norway]

Maybe the siblings think that the professional caregiver is doing the main care giving, so that's not on your shoulders. But from what I understand, the prof caregivers are looking after your mother fulltime and don't leave the home. You are your father's personal assistant, and doing all the tasks the caregivers cannot do outside the house, and doing all the management tasks around your parents. Normally the prof caregivers would discuss all these management issues with the remaining partner. But in this case, the remaining partner is also old and in need of assistance. Then the next step would have been the children. This now all falls on your shoulders.

Like someone suggested above, I would make a list of what you do, both the physical and management tasks. And how much you pay already for utilities and food. And then call in a meeting in person with your siblings. Tell them that your heard rumors that someone thinks you should pay rent and you want to kill that thought once and for all by showing them how much you do. And then talk about them taking over when you take some time off occasionally.

[Daisy]

Maybe the siblings think that the professional caregiver is doing the main care giving, so that's not on your shoulders. But from what I understand, the prof caregivers are looking after your mother fulltime and don't leave the home. You are your father's personal assistant, and doing all the tasks the caregivers cannot do outside the house, and doing all the management tasks around your parents. Normally the prof caregivers would discuss all these management issues with the remaining partner. But in this case, the remaining partner is also old and in need of assistance. Then the next step would have been the children. This now all falls on your shoulders.

Like someone suggested above, I would make a list of what you do, both the physical and management tasks. And how much you pay already for utilities and food. And then call in a meeting in person with your siblings. Tell them that your heard rumors that someone thinks you should pay rent and you want to kill that thought once and for all by showing them how much you do. And then talk about them taking over when you take some time off occasionally.

You have summarized my role well.

Actually we are paying the hands on caregiver a lot more than my "free" rent would be.

[Bernard]

Reading this topic from the top, I was about to ask for your parents' age. You answered that. I'm also interested in your age, and your siblings age, and their financial situation.
Another thing that interests me is the house. I assume it is paid off and when both your parents are gone, it's going to be owned by all 4 of you?

[charis]

I'm a little confused about how this arrangement started because a few responses mention that your siblings asked you to do this, which is not what you said.  Your dad asked you to move in to help with mostly non-medical care issues and they also pay for round-the-clock caregivers for medical stuff?  Did you discuss this with your siblings first or did you and your father just decide that you would move in rent-free?  It sounds like someone raised the idea of you paying rent early on in this arrangement and that the expectation comes from that?

It makes sense to have a meeting to outline exactly what you are doing and decide whether its worth it to keep living with them, financially or otherwise.  What were you planning to do for housing after selling your condo, or do you expect to live in your parents' house permanently?  Given that your parents already have round the clock care, I can understand the siblings questioning the need for you to move in, but on the other hand, they are relieved of the burden of all the chores that you perform, at no extra cost to them. 

I think you have one problem even if you didn't live there - your siblings expecting you to handle 90% because you are retired. Wherever you live, you need to create some firm boundaries that includes certain tasks that each siblings is responsible for.

[former player]

Hi, Daisy.  I just wanted to say that spent 3 of the first 4 years of FIRE as an increasingly involved carer for elderly relatives - pretty much the only difference is that my relatives lived near me but not in the same house, which was the only thing enabling me to cope as well as I did.  So I know a bit about how all-consuming the role of family carer can become, and how hard what you are doing is.

I think writing down all the hours and tasks and driving and co-ordinating that you do in a week, and showing it to your siblings with a total of hours worked together with out of pocket expenses (fuel for all the driving you do, cost of phone calls, etc.) could give your siblings a better idea of what is involved in what you do - I've a fair notion that they have no idea how much work you put in every day in keeping things going for your parents.  As others have said, thinking that you should be paying rent is ridiculous - I'm sure that if you set a notional rent against a reasonable hourly wage you would be significantly in the money, not the other way around.

Also, I think setting immovable periods for your own holidays and arranging with your siblings what arrangements they will put in place in your stead is vital - I would suggest that between them they either agree that one of them should stay with your parents while you are away or pay for the extra care needed.

Best wishes.

[Villanelle]

I wouldn't expect the siblings to suddenly understand and appreciate OP's contributions if they step in for a weekend or even a week.  It sounds like a lot of these tasks may be important, but not urgent.  Likely a substitute caregiver will only fo the urgent items, and everything else will wait.  They will make sure the groceries are bought, but it the electric bill isn't due for two weeks, they aren't going to pay that.  They will fill dad's pill case for the days there are there, but not run to the pharmacy for a refill that isn't needed until late next week.  They will bring in the mail but not balance the checkbook.   That will only reenforce their idea that the OP isn't earning her keep. 

It's like going on vacation and having a coworker cover your job.  They make sure anything critical gets taken care of, but they aren't doing your full workload.  You come back to a lot of deferred tasks. 

If making them see exactly what she does is important, a think a detailed log is going to be far more effective.

That said, I still maintain that this is an agreement between you and your parents.  If they are happy with it, it's none of your sibling's business.  It may be worth asking them about it and even specifically saying that the siblings are concerned that you aren't paying rent and you want to make sure they are comfortable with things.  (Of course, if you do that and they aren't then you'll need to sort that out.)  That would allow you to tell your siblings that you've opening discussed it ad mom and dad are fine.  (I am assuming that there's no question about your parent's mental fitness.)   

Maybe you've mentioned it, but who is paying for the caregivers?  That's a very large expense.  Are your parents paying, or the siblings?  If the latter, do you all (including yourself) contribute equally? 

[Daisy]

Reading this topic from the top, I was about to ask for your parents' age. You answered that. I'm also interested in your age, and your siblings age, and their financial situation.
Another thing that interests me is the house. I assume it is paid off and when both your parents are gone, it's going to be owned by all 4 of you?

All siblings are middle aged, 40s and 50s. Everyone is in a decent financial situation. We had good training from my parents! They came to the US as immigrants in their 30s and managed to do well for themselves and we had a good financial example from them.

The house is paid off, in a trust, and all four siblings are trustees so it would get split up in the case of death.

[Daisy]

I'm a little confused about how this arrangement started because a few responses mention that your siblings asked you to do this, which is not what you said.  Your dad asked you to move in to help with mostly non-medical care issues and they also pay for round-the-clock caregivers for medical stuff?  Did you discuss this with your siblings first or did you and your father just decide that you would move in rent-free?  It sounds like someone raised the idea of you paying rent early on in this arrangement and that the expectation comes from that?

I FIREd in October 2017, took a three week trip, was at home at my condo by the beach enjoying life. Then my mother had the amputation in February 2018. As she was having surgery and then the 4-5 month rehab stay, I stayed with my father in order to drive him to the hospital to visit her and also their house was closer for me to visit my mother all of the time too.

My father started slowly asking that I move in permanently and sell my condo, that he needed my help. I resisted for a long time because I knew I'd lose some independence. My siblings did not think I should give up my independence, but it was not discussed much.

Then a friend convinced me that it would be better for me to move in with my parents. I still resisted.

Then one day I woke up, still staying at my parents house due to the logistics of taking my father around but silently bitter that I was never at my condo, and decided that maybe moving in was the best thing.

I finally sold my condo in August 2019.

My father has never asked for rent. I knew I could not afford to carry my condo costs AND pay rent, so the decision would be made after I sold my condo, which just happened. But recently some of my siblings were asking about the rent, as it would help my father with his increased costs. Then I have mentioned it to some people and I was amazed by the almost unanimous support there is for not paying rent.

I had not equated all the work I did with "unpaid labor". I don't help them for the money and would not want to get paid to do it, but I do see how my "free" rent would be the way to silently pay for the work I do.

It makes sense to have a meeting to outline exactly what you are doing and decide whether its worth it to keep living with them, financially or otherwise.  What were you planning to do for housing after selling your condo, or do you expect to live in your parents' house permanently?  Given that your parents already have round the clock care, I can understand the siblings questioning the need for you to move in, but on the other hand, they are relieved of the burden of all the chores that you perform, at no extra cost to them. 

I think you have one problem even if you didn't live there - your siblings expecting you to handle 90% because you are retired. Wherever you live, you need to create some firm boundaries that includes certain tasks that each siblings is responsible for.

I was planning to stay at the condo by the beach for my ideal retired life. I only moved because my father asked me to.

I don't know what my future plans are. Like I said above, I was already staying with my father after the amputation because he needed to be driven around. It just seemed easier to move in permanently, although I resisted it for a while.

[Daisy]

I wouldn't expect the siblings to suddenly understand and appreciate OP's contributions if they step in for a weekend or even a week.  It sounds like a lot of these tasks may be important, but not urgent.  Likely a substitute caregiver will only fo the urgent items, and everything else will wait.  They will make sure the groceries are bought, but it the electric bill isn't due for two weeks, they aren't going to pay that.  They will fill dad's pill case for the days there are there, but not run to the pharmacy for a refill that isn't needed until late next week.  They will bring in the mail but not balance the checkbook.   That will only reenforce their idea that the OP isn't earning her keep. 

This is exactly right. I do a big grocery run before going out of town. I still pay the bills and do the finances and manage the ladies. Trust me, keeping them happy with their pay and hours and getting my father to agree is a lot of work and mental energy consumed!

It's like going on vacation and having a coworker cover your job.  They make sure anything critical gets taken care of, but they aren't doing your full workload.  You come back to a lot of deferred tasks. 

If making them see exactly what she does is important, a think a detailed log is going to be far more effective.

That said, I still maintain that this is an agreement between you and your parents.  If they are happy with it, it's none of your sibling's business.  It may be worth asking them about it and even specifically saying that the siblings are concerned that you aren't paying rent and you want to make sure they are comfortable with things.  (Of course, if you do that and they aren't then you'll need to sort that out.)  That would allow you to tell your siblings that you've opening discussed it ad mom and dad are fine.  (I am assuming that there's no question about your parent's mental fitness.)   

Maybe you've mentioned it, but who is paying for the caregivers?  That's a very large expense.  Are your parents paying, or the siblings?  If the latter, do you all (including yourself) contribute equally?

I just spoke with my father and he says he does not expect rent from me, that I do a lot of work and he is happy to be relieved of the burden. He doesn't even think I should mention it to the siblings, since they are all living their own lives carefree. Like I mentioned, they participate and decisions and do their part, when they can.

Luckily, my father has savings and social security income and he is currently paying for all care. The money may last another 5 years, then we'd have to tap into home equity.

But I do agree, if my siblings and I think he needs help, then all should pitch in.

[Daisy]

Daisy, you may find this recent advice column interesting, along with the reader comments. It seems pretty close to your situation, with the exception of the full-time caregivers.

https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/carolynhax/s-2285109

That was a very enlightening article. Thanks for sharing.

[Pigeon]

Call a family meeting. You need to work as a team.
My point of view, you should not pay rent or any portion of utilities. Pay 1/3 of groceries.
One long weekend a month and two weeks every 3-4 months where you leave and have NO responsibilty for co-ordinating care.
What you are giving up is freedom and choice. Ok in the short to medium term if your siblings and parents are supportive and appreciative, not sustainable without that.
This will not go on for ever, but the fracturing of family relationships will outlive your parents if  it worsens.

This is a great answer.  Having been down the road of declining health of two sets of parents, your siblings are clueless about how much time and effort is involved here.  Make a detailed list of the amount of time and the tasks you perform for them.  Price out getting outside help and let them know how much it would cost to hire out what you do.  Make sure you also account for the time it would take to coordinate the caregiver schedule and ask them which one of them is going to be responsible to do that and which one of them is going to cover if the caregivers don't show up for one reason or another.

[Jakejake]

I'm a definite no on paying rent.

If I understand this right: "She did three months this summer after her lease expired on her apartment." Your sister stayed there for three months? How much rent did she pay for those months? Am I right in guessing zero?

But regardless of that - a tenant has rights that your family is not extending to you, and you are taking on responsibilities that no tenant takes on for a landlord. A tenant is allowed to leave when a lease expires - guilt free. They can come and go as they please. Their time is their own; they aren't responsible for the health, transportation, shopping needs of their landlords. This flat out is not a landlord tenant situation for so many reasons.

Beyond that, your siblings are already profiting from you staying there. They are able to keep their jobs instead of moving because you saved your whole life and were able to retire early and were willing to step up. They are able to have their evenings, weekends, vacation time to themselves because they know you are there giving up yours. They do not need to further profit from you paying into equity for the house, that they will then one day inherit. It's (insert swear words here) absurd for them to demand that you in effect pay them for the privilege of taking on the burden of caring for your parents in ways that they refuse to do.

If they don't like that answer I would tell them: That's fine, If you all feel this arrangement is unfair to the family I can move back to the beach. I was happy there, but also I was willing to be the family's unpaid servant. But what I'm not willing to do is pay for that honor. That's a firm boundary I have to set for myself. So you guys talk among yourselves and let me know which you think is best for the family - me staying and helping out at no cost, or me moving back to (wherever you want to live) at my own expense, and we all come up with a schedule for which months we're each responsible for when our parents need care, are in the hospital, etc.

(Sorry if I'm rambling - can you tell my family tried to pull some similar shit on me and I'm still resentful? Ha.)

[deborah]

I think it would be really worthwhile to itemise what you do for your parents and to share it with your siblings. It would enable them to take over properly when you do go away. It would also enable everyone to think about what a good level of care is now, and to use to see how it changes over time. And it would enable you all to see just how much you need the occasional holiday.

[terran]

I just spoke with my father and he says he does not expect rent from me, that I do a lot of work and he is happy to be relieved of the burden. He doesn't even think I should mention it to the siblings, since they are all living their own lives carefree. Like I mentioned, they participate and decisions and do their part, when they can.

Sounds like that's your answer. Either keep quiet like your dad says, or if you want to address it head on or if your siblings keep saying things tell them you've talked it over with your dad and given it some thought, and you've decided you agree with your dad that the work you put in helping your parents is more than enough to make up for the "free" rent and this is between you and your parents. You might also say that if the time comes that your parents need financial help you expect all siblings to pitch in and that you don't think it's unreasonable to consider the time any sibling puts in to alleviate those cost as part of their contribution.

[SunnyDays]

So why exactly do your sibs think you should pay rent?  So they will get a bigger slice of the pie one day?  What other reason could there be?  I would not say anything further to them about it, but if they raise the issue again then tell them that you and your dad have come to an arrangement (no rent).  In the meantime, I would keep track of “billable hours” in the event the sibs decide to push it further.  Then split the total and send them each their portion of the bill.

[Villanelle]

Well then, you've discussed it with dad and you and he are on the same page.  And per his request, I wouldn't bring it up at all with the siblings, and if they mention the situation, I'd say, "dad has asked me not to discuss it with you.  he and I are on the same page, and if you have any questions about the arrangements, bring it up with him."  Repeat as needed. 

I would, however, keep in mind and be prepared for the fact that your siblings will likely either start charging rent the day your parents die, or will ask you to leave in short order.  And please don't let them, when that time comes, both charge you fair market rent and yet expect you to do all of the work involved in the estate and prepping the house for sale.  If you pay rent (unless it is significantly reduced) then you do what a tenant does, and nothing more.   

[Daisy]

As I've mentioned before we all get along well and nobody's looking to get a bigger piece of the pie. I just think the situation happened haphhadardly after my mom's incident and nobody has really thought it through.

I'd rather be open with everybody about the situation so we can discuss things in a positive way.

Too late guys I sent my siblings a link to this thread so they can read all of your excellent responses. Be nice to them!

Maybe they will get inspired to be early retired too!

[Sibley]

First, I would stop blaming all of your lashing out on your brain injury. Because honestly, if I moved in with my parents, had no privacy, was a pretty much full time caregiver for 2 disabled parents, and had my siblings giving me grief about paying rent, I'd lash out too. Its called being human. Your brain injury may make it worse, but it's not causing it.

I don’t think this comment is helpful to the OP.  I’ll stand corrected if it turns out your career is brain damage research, but personality changes from brain damage is extremely well documented.

OP, my sympathies are with you and I hope your siblings understand you’re not entirely in control of your behavior after brain damage. It sounds like you’re doing remarkably well given the very stressful circumstances.

Thanks for the support. Really many people don't understand brain injuries and sometimes I don't understand all the ramifications myself. I probably wouldn't of understood it if I hadn't come through it. In fact when I went back to work after the disability my manager said I was doing stuff slowly and I reminded him about the brain injury but he told me I looked fine. Sometimes I don't have the vocabulary to express what's going on and didn't have good direction from my doctors on this. But I am doing remarkably really well thank God.

I don't blame the original response to me because brain injuries are invisible and many people don't understand it. Maybe it's a teachable moment!

You have both misunderstood me. With or without a brain injury, being angry/upset/frustrated with the siblings in this situation is understandable and human. So, the existence of the brain injury (whatever it's symptoms/consequences may be - and I don't know that!) is not causing the emotions, though the brain injury may be heightening them or something. There is a difference.

Let's use a very different example. Say you have a broken leg. And then you sprain your wrist. Yes, you have a broken leg. But your wrist still hurts. Doesn't mean the leg isn't hurt, doesn't mean the wrist isn't hurt. But do not blame the sprained wrist solely on the broken leg, though it is possible that using crutches to get around may have contributed to the wrist injury.

So, OP, do not discount the fact that you're feeling angry/upset/frustrated/whatever about your siblings here - those are still valid and appropriate emotions for the situation.

[Villanelle]

Linking to your siblings (Hi, Daisy's siblings) seems sort of passive aggressive, especially given that everyone in the thread has more or less agreed with you.  I agreed that you probably shouldn't be paying rent, but sharing the link seems ill-advised.

How often are they bringing this up, and how aggressively?  I'm starting to wonder if maybe you aren't harboring some uncertainty or guilt, and maybe making this in to a Thing when it isn't for them.  I can't say exactly what gives me that impression, but it's there.  If they've calmly asked you about it and you've said that your dad is fine with it, drop it.  Or are they repeatedly bring it up again and again?

[Daisy]

Linking to your siblings (Hi, Daisy's siblings) seems sort of passive aggressive, especially given that everyone in the thread has more or less agreed with you.  I agreed that you probably shouldn't be paying rent, but sharing the link seems ill-advised.

How often are they bringing this up, and how aggressively?  I'm starting to wonder if maybe you aren't harboring some uncertainty or guilt, and maybe making this in to a Thing when it isn't for them.  I can't say exactly what gives me that impression, but it's there.  If they've calmly asked you about it and you've said that your dad is fine with it, drop it.  Or are they repeatedly bring it up again and again?

My siblings have not brought it up nor have they asked me to they just assumed I was going to pay rent after I sold my condo.

I posted here and then linked them to it because none of us are familiar with the norms in this situation and I think it's helpful to read other people's perspectives.

[kei te pai]

The period of life when elderly parents need more help, their final illnesses, and subsequent settling of estate/distribution and disposal of possessions seems to be a testing time for siblings (and partners).  Its great that you are open with all your family about your concerns and thoughts. I would really urge you all to keep talking and valuing the relationships between you.
Frankly, in my experience, the 'norm' is for family bust ups and grievances which last for years. What not to do!

[charis]

I assume the OP linked to here for some support after being accused of "lashing out" for expressing emotion and the implication that it's related to the brain injury. I can hardly blame the OP for that, ill-advised or not. Also, this is a FIRE leaning community which understands that the OP should not be taking advantage of due to having more free time.

[Jakejake]

OP should not be taking advantage of due to having more free time.

Knowing that they are reading this, I want to make sure we are clear on the wording. OP should not be taken advantage of due to making the decision to: not have kids, be single, and work hard and save their money and live frugally with the (now lost) intention of getting their rewards later in life rather than earlier.

That distinction is important. As I mentioned, I've been in these shoes. My sister spent her life refusing to work full time jobs because it would "interfere with book club" and other such hobbies, she lived above her means, the one time she did have a full time job for two years she ate lunches out daily despite me warning her she should be packing a lunch to save while she had the opportunity. But no, she had to have a break because people might ask her a job related question if she was eating at her desk, it was just too stressful not to go out to a restaurant. She hasn't saved for retirement.  And that was all her own business - not mine. (Until it directly affected me and she made it my business by declaring that due to her life choices, my life was going to have to be derailed.)

Meanwhile I was working two jobs, raising a kid (for a while as a single mom), packing lunches for my family, and saving everything I could with the plan that I'd work my ass off, and retire early and finally be able to take a breath and relax. Still frugally, but finally have some me time.

But no, now I'm stuck caring for my mom because she sees this as me having a life of leisure, and poor her, she has to work for a living (!). I don't even have it as hard as Daisy, because my mom's in assisted living a couple miles from me. But I handle her finances. I visit her every other day. When I went away for one week this year I asked my sister to come to town so my mother would have a visitor and I had to hear all about what an imposition it was. 4 days! My sister has seen my mother 4 days in the last year! And has the nerve to tell me what a burden it was. And she sends me little texts saying well, at least the finances are probably all under control now and not taking up so much of your time now that she's all settled in.

No. It doesn't work like that. She's been moved near me for almost a year now. This week? I spent 3 hours navigating her prescription coverage because it's open enrollment season with medicare, and her previous coverage is going to terminate in February because she moved out of that state then. The phone calls included getting someone who doesn't speak english AND is dyslexic. What's your address? 3711. OKAY. So that's 3771. NO. 3711. Okay. I'm sorry the computer isn't verifying any address at 37711. Every week, there's something financial that takes up hours and takes up real estate in my head. Jan 1, 2020 I have to remember to contact her assisted living place, the place that fills her prescriptions, to get them to switch to her new insurance. And make sure the old insurance is canceled. And make sure the new premiums are being charged through autopayments. And then get those coordinated through her HSA for reimbursement. None of this is just sticking a bill in the mail.

And every single night - EVERY night - I wake up at some point with intrusive thoughts about the harsh physical and mental realities of watching my parent's slow decline to death, up close and personal. And every single night, without fail, for a year now, I also wake up at some point with intrusive thoughts about how much I resent my sibling for dumping all of this on me while she waltzes off having her happy curated life, acting like my free labor is hers to take, like she's of course entitled to it, if that's what it takes for her to keep enjoying her life in the moment. It makes me feel like the rest of the family has decided for me that my life has no worth at all outside of serving their needs. I feel like Cinderella, before the ball.

My husband isn't awake yet. My parrot isn't awake yet - pretty soon he'll be waking up and telling me "Almonds! need Almonds" so I'm going to have to sign off. But right now, I'm sitting here in the dark, typing - because  I woke up at 5:30am, laid in bed with my intrusive thoughts for an hour, and finally snuck out to another room with my laptop. But I want to tell you I am angry at you. I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if, on top of all this, my sister announced I should be paying "rent" into my mother's estate for all I am doing so my sister can inherit some of my savings in addition to my mother's. That's all - it's dark, I'm alone, I'm watching my mother die, it's consuming my life, and I'm angry at you on Daisy's behalf.

[former player]

That's an amazing post, jakejake.  I've been in a very similar situation, with the exception that although my sibling like yours didn't do any caretaking they are definitely a responsible member of society.

Wishing you the best.  It will end at some point, and I have found comfort in the knowledge that what I did wasn't perfect but it was what I could do and it was mostly good enough.

[Captain FIRE]

Ok, I get that people are concerned that Daisy is being taken advantage of.  But let's not jump down the siblings throats preemptively, because it's very possible/sounds like Daisy hasn't communicated how much work she is doing (hence the suggestions to lay it out). 

People are just assuming the reason for paying rent is inheritance rather than concern for whether the parents instead are the ones being taken advantage of.  If you read the inheritance thread, you'll see a lot of righteous indignation on the other side for free-loading siblings that lived with parents for years, when the other sibling(s) did not think that the parent(s) needed help.

I'm guessing some open communication could help matters here.  And by open, I don't mean just sending a link to this thread, which is probably going to enflame matters worse as people are just responding to one side of the story, but rather where you have a dialogue.  (If you hadn't sent the link, it might have been fine to just say that you and your dad have discussed it and he satisfied, take any concerns to him, but since you have, I think it would be better if you made an effort to fix things.)  In addition to not being aware of what you do to assist (considering you do have full-time caregivers, someone not accustomed to being around elderly folks with disabilities/health issues might not realize how much work there is to help them), it's possible the comment re rent was offhanded comment or a joke.