Moving from HCOL to LCOL - was it worth it?

[Lanthiriel]

TLDR: Has anyone moved to a LCOL area from HCOL before FIRE to pursue a slower pace of life? How much did it affect your savings rate? Was the change in quality of life drastic enough to be worth the pay cut?

For those who want context:
My husband and I lived in Portland, OR for 6 years while he finished the world's longest Bachelors degree program. We then moved to Anchorage, AK for 3.5 years and absolutely fell in love with the pace of life there. The population was only around 300,000 people. Traffic was non-existent. We had easy access to anything we needed and also to lots and lots of open space.

Then my husband was laid off. He looked for a job locally for about six months with no luck. We worried that with oil being far and away Alaska's primary source of income that we were taking a big risk staying there. He took a job back in Portland, where I also had lots of professional contacts, and we moved back almost exactly two years ago. We're now making great money, own a beautiful house equidistant between our two offices, and are saving about 40% of our income per year. Unfortunately, we're miserable.

Here's a list of why we're miserable:

• The climate sucks. I miss snow and mountains on a cellular level.
• The traffic is horrendous.
• Once you do get somewhere, 5000 people are already there. Hiking areas? Packed. Cultural events? Packed. It feels impossible to get away from people.
• We suck at making friends here. I had a huge social group in Anchorage, aside from not really fitting in to the Portland crowd of craft beer and local bands, having friends that live more than 5 miles from you makes it hard to want to battle traffic to spend time with people.
• Cost of living is insane. Remember that gorgeous house? In a fit of despair over leaving somewhere I loved, I bought a quirky house that is solidly 50% larger than what I needed. It's also outside the only neighborhood I like in Portland because I was trying to compromise on location with my husband who works way out in the suburbs. The house somehow is one of the few things I like about living here, and also a huge source of anxiety.

I'm almost sad that we went to Alaska because for the first time in my life I loved where I lived. I thought that economic stability and being closer to family would outweigh that feeling, but it doesn't. I used to be happy every day. Now I feel like there are maybe 4 days per month when I can truly claim to be happy.

There's another situation compounding our unhappiness, which is my husband's career. He is an extremely smart dude with absolutely zero ambition. I should not have forced him through school, but I did. He didn't graduate until he was 30. He is now stuck at almost 36 in an entry level position and has failed his professional licensing examination twice by a very narrow margin. If he doesn't pass it a third time, his career will have dead ended. This wouldn't be so bad, but he works in the field every day for 10-12 hours in this horrible, horrible climate. He is miserable. And honestly, even if he passes his licensing exam, he really needs a Masters degree to work for 75% of the companies that are in his line of work. Since I'm not sure his sanity or our marriage would survive another degree, the chances of him getting a cushy desk job are slim.

We are fantasizing about moving to a mountainous college town where I can get a job working at a university (a lifelong dream) or even stay in my current career path (marketing in the A/E/C field), and he can... manage some rental properties? Work as a teller? Get a real estate license? Basically do something to bring in ~30k/year so we can keep saving. Right now we're looking at Helena, MT or Boone, NC for their nexus of size, location, and real estate prices.

I've run that math and while we can retire in ~12 years on our current path, who knows exactly what that would look like in a LCOL area. It looks like we would spend about $3200/mo in the locations we're looking at, which seems like a totally reasonable amount for two highly educated professionals to be able to take home even in an area without a ton of job opportunity. But even with the best planning there are lots of unknowns. That said, we're so unhappy that it seems worth the gamble. At the same time, there's no guarantee that the move would magically fix everything, but it seems like it can't be as bad as staying...

So, after all that rambling, I guess I'm looking for advice. Any stories about downshifting and its impact on the rest of your life? Anyone else just unable to tolerate city living? I just need some outside perspectives.

[Rural]

 For us, pay cuts were drastic, but the drop in cost of living much more than offset those. We ended up much better off financially on top of everything else.

[takemewest]

In the last 10 years, we've gone from living in very HCOL locations to lower COL, although where we are now isn't as low as people would imagine considering it's a relatively rural location. Our salaries dropped in proportion (and also because of shifting to different types of jobs within our fields of education the last couple years here--I did have the dream gig at the university in this university town, but the politics made it miserable!). We could easily be making 2x as much as teachers if we moved to HCOL, but for us, the pace of life is worth it. We hike every weekend. We sit in absolutely no traffic, ever. Sometimes we forget that we don't have to go out to eat at 5 just to get a table (we actually did that this weekend and felt like the oldest 30 somethings ever because the place was dead empty!). We often are out in the mountains and never see a soul. And, that's what we need in our life right now. I'm not sure it'll be the right choice forever, but for the happiness it's brought us, it has absolutely been worth it even though we can't save as quickly.

[frugalone]

I have to say yes.  Am three months into a move to a LOC area.   My income hasn't changed as I make my living off of rentals and website design.   The $970 I save each month vs missing some of my favorite restaurants that are now 45 minutes away is well worth it.

[nsmall]

Sell the house (no capital gains right) move into an apartment that is more convenient.  Will this increase your savings rate? 

Do you have a lot of home equity that you could then dump into the market to prove your retirement date?

We are planning to do the same thing in four years.  These are just some quick thoughts I had.

I hope you guys can make changes and things will go better for you

[harvestbook]

I actually live in Boone NC. My secret was I looked for the place I wanted to be and didn't worry about the money. Easy solution for happiness.

As for work, I just kept at the thing I loved (first music, and then writing) and it eventually worked out. Again, happiness was the only goal, not some specific income level or bank account that would allow a safety net.

I think it's a mistake to live an unhappy life on some dream of a future time of happiness. There are no guarantees, so why not grab the happiness now?

[HipGnosis]

I have to say yes.  Am three months into a move to a LOC area.   My income hasn't changed as I make my living off of rentals and website design.   The $970 I save each month vs missing some of my favorite restaurants that are now 45 minutes away is well worth it.

Are you saying you're moving 45 minutes away and saving $970/mo?!? 

[frugalone]

I have to say yes.  Am three months into a move to a LOC area.   My income hasn't changed as I make my living off of rentals and website design.   The $970 I save each month vs missing some of my favorite restaurants that are now 45 minutes away is well worth it.

Are you saying you're moving 45 minutes away and saving $970/mo?!?

Yes, here's the link to my story:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/49-y-female-housing-decision-needed/

[LightStache]

I've lived in HCOL and LCOL places. If saving money is your primary goal then the big corporate salaries in HCOL areas significantly outweigh the taxes and extra spending. This isn't the case if your income is location independent or if you're making below the median in a big city. I don't love where I live -- coastal LA is just a tad congested ;) -- but I try to make the best of it.

In your case it sounds like you should move. Happiness should come before earnings potential.  The job market is great across the country -- start searching for university jobs in multiple towns you think you'd like and see what hits you get. The trick will be to make sure your DH is on board and doesn't use "your" move to a smaller city as an excuse not to bring in some income.

[merlin7676]

I totally feel for your situation as we're kind of in the same boat.

We live in Seattle but purchased property (land) in Missoula to retire to. While we don't make insane amounts of money, we are doing much better than our peers and on track to retire in about 12 years. 

Given the opportunity, we'd move there tomorrow.  But we wouldn't make nearly what we make here. Without going into specifics, neither one of us could work there what we do here so we'd be stuck doing I don't know what there...minimum wage stuff?  retail? dunno.

We have come to hate Seattle. It has gone so downhill and the traffic/people coming here is insane. We know exactly what you mean that anywhere you go, there's also tons of other people going to the same thing, same place. He's been here since he was 19, I've been here for 14 years.  Unfortunately we aren't young anymore (43 and 47) so we can't really "start over" in Missoula until we're ready to retire there and are financially independent.

So, for us, we're stuck here in the meantime. There are days when I just wanna say fuck it and move. But I have to remind myself that the bigger picture IS the bigger picture. We, and you, can make much more where we're at now and it will help to accelerate to the then down the road. My mantra has become short term pain for long term gain.

[Poeirenta]

@merlin7676, we bought land in north central WA 12 years ago. I thought for sure we'd have to bring our own economy with us to move to our property full-time, but I kept an eye on job announcements in the area and lo and behold, there was my ideal position. Moved here full time 8 years ago. Did we take a pay cut? Yes, but we've gotten steady raises, our jobs are very flexible, and the reduction in stress from not living in Seattle makes it all worth it. It gets harder and harder to go back to see friends in Seattle, that's for sure.

I don't think it put us any further from FIRE; we make less but we spend less, especially on things that we used to buy to cope with city living (looking at you, Black Pearl chinese food delivery).

You know your situation best, obviously. Just thought you might like an anecdote from someone who was similarly frustrated living in the city and made it out to their property sooner than they thought possible.

[Syonyk]

TLDR: Has anyone moved to a LCOL area from HCOL before FIRE to pursue a slower pace of life? How much did it affect your savings rate? Was the change in quality of life drastic enough to be worth the pay cut?

Yes.

It impacted our savings rate significantly, since it was about a 50% effective pay cut (not quite as much, but my wife was working and we've got kids now - moved to be near family).  However, we still spend less than we make, by a good margin, and...

The quality of life change was massive.  We were in Seattle, hated it, and couldn't be happier out on a few acres in rural farm country near family (a couple minute walk to my inlaws place - works great with two kids, it gives my wife a break in the afternoons, I think they're awesome, etc).

I built a shed into an office and work remotely for a few people, doing some deep technical work that is well suited to isolation.  Plus, no commute.

And we have the space to pursue things like solar, greenhouses, etc.  Right now our savings rate consists of "Save up, do property improvements," but those are focused at long term cost reduction and uncertainty reduction (independent energy/food production, etc), and at driving down our long term costs.  What's the return on them?  Hard to say, since I don't know what power/food costs will do in the future, but we've got the capability to function more independently.

* The traffic is horrendous.
* Once you do get somewhere, 5000 people are already there. Hiking areas? Packed. Cultural events? Packed. It feels impossible to get away from people.

I described our view of Seattle to people as "Sitting in traffic to stand in line to spend money around lots of other people."  It sucked.  And, yes, hiking felt like going shopping, with the number of people there.

So, after all that rambling, I guess I'm looking for advice. Any stories about downshifting and its impact on the rest of your life? Anyone else just unable to tolerate city living? I just need some outside perspectives.

We live near family now, spend our time outside, and have all sorts of free or nearly-free activities that we do.  We drive more than we did in Seattle, but have a Volt, so cost per mile remains fairly low (power is cheap out here, and will be going down with our solar - I'll be charging from mid-day surplus, since the car is usually in use in the mornings and occasionally evenings).

But we are so much happier.

Well worth it, even if it takes us a few more years to free our schedules up from work.

[DirtDiva]

We moved away from a place where we hated the weather and had to drive everywhere, and we spent more on taxes and utilities. (Maine- beautiful state, great people- but the long winters, mud season, and cloudy weather were not for us).

We moved to a place where we love the weather, and where our souls are nourished by the natural surroundings (I know that sounds corny, but it sounds like you know what I mean, Lanthiriel). We walk or bike everywhere, our work commutes are 8-10 minutes on foot, we enjoy a strong and close-knit community, and there are unlimited year-round uncrowded free or cheap activities (rural Colorado).

A similar house cost 200k more here, but our real estate taxes are now 200/mo less, heat/electricity is 300/mo less, and transportation expenses are minimal.  So our overall monthly expenses are lower and will be way lower once the mortgage is gone.

I took a 10-20k pay cut for a less stressful job. My spouse now works mostly remotely for his employer, and makes more $ working fewer hours per week due to the lack of interruptions and avoidance of office politics.

It took about 2 years to figure out our job situations once we decided we wanted to do it.  It was so worth it; I'm so glad we didn't wait any longer.  Not by choice, but our Maine home full of most of our furnishings did not sell for a year, which felt like a security blanket while we lived here to see if it was going to work out.

No regrets at all!

[okparallax]

We moved from Austin Texas to Oklahoma City about 9 years ago, much lower cost of living, we were able to buy a house immediately and do to a lower percentage of college-educated people both our careers have faced less  competition so we actually make a lot more than we would in Austin and the cost of living here is probably at least 30 to 40% less. I would strongly recommend living where you're happy.

[pdxbator]

Hi fellow Portlander. I have had some of the same thoughts as you. I grew up in Colorado (I'm 45 and moved to Oregon for college so been here a while). My husband grew up here.

Lately I've really been feeling the itch to get somewhere else. There are just so many people here! I feel very lucky in that we bought our house almost 20 years ago in a walkable/bikable area. We can walk to grocery stores, bike to downtown in 25 minutes. It is the ideal life.....if you want to live in a city where it rains and is gray so much!

We are tied to this area for a while with his aging mother, but I dream of going somewhere sunnier and fewer people. Of course we'd lose amenities, but it sounds so nice to not have to deal with so many other people all the time.

[Syonyk]

Of course we'd lose amenities, but it sounds so nice to not have to deal with so many other people all the time.

The value of those amenities depends, heavily, on how much you value them.

For instance, when we were in Seattle, people who loooooved the area would go on about how there were sooo many restaurants that you could eat out at a different restaurant every night, and, why, there was Chinese delivery at 3AM (this, of course, being just taken for granted as something that's a basic necessity of living in a civilized area).

My wife and I tend to cook at home, mostly from components, because it's tastier and we have more control over what's in food - either restaurant food has progressively gotten worse over the past decade, or we've progressively gotten more used to "clean" foods and good seasoning at home.

Living near art museums is also just one of those things that, apparently, makes you cultured by osmosis, because you get awkward noises when you ask people the last time they actually went to one of the cultural things they talk about.  I'm fine visiting a city and attending the museums, and honestly am more likely to go to them in a place I don't live.

On the other hand, they thought we were loonies, because, in their mind, we "moved to the middle of nowhere and live in a trailer house."  I'd call it rural farm country with a good view of the middle of nowhere, and we're quite happy with our manufactured doublewide on a concrete foundation.

[Cassie]

If you are that miserable I would move. Lots of great communities in the West that are cheaper with mountain activities.

[Lanthiriel]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! I kind of know in my heart that moving is the right choice even if it’s a blow to our savings while we figure things out. I actually had a nice chat with my husband this morning before I checked MMM and we agreed that we need to see how things shake out with his license before making any big decisions.

Several of you pointed out that a move to LCOL doesn’t have to mean career suicide for both or either of us. I’ve been kind of having an all or nothing approach to my husband having this big fancy career or no career at all. There has to be some middle ground there.

[Lanthiriel]

I actually live in Boone NC. My secret was I looked for the place I wanted to be and didn't worry about the money. Easy solution for happiness.

How do you like Boone? I’ve been a couple of times and Western NC is absolutely gorgeous. You also can’t beat real estate prices. I think my only complaint is that I wish it was a bit colder in the winter (not a huge fan of the freeze/thaw cycle).

Have you been able to build a decent social circle in Boone? My hope is that because it’s a college town, I’d be able to find a good knitting or book club. I’m childfree and in my 30s and worry slightly about fitting in.

[Lanthiriel]

I totally feel for your situation as we're kind of in the same boat.

We live in Seattle but purchased property (land) in Missoula to retire to. While we don't make insane amounts of money, we are doing much better than our peers and on track to retire in about 12 years. 

What made you decide on Missoula? Husband and I are hoping to do a trip to Coeur d’Alene, Whitefish, Missoula, and Helena this summer to get the lay of the land. Montana seems like the Alaska of the Lower 48, but we’re worried we’ll find it open and brown. We’re definitely tree people :)

[Case]

TLDR: Has anyone moved to a LCOL area from HCOL before FIRE to pursue a slower pace of life? How much did it affect your savings rate? Was the change in quality of life drastic enough to be worth the pay cut?

Yes.

It impacted our savings rate significantly, since it was about a 50% effective pay cut (not quite as much, but my wife was working and we've got kids now - moved to be near family).  However, we still spend less than we make, by a good margin, and...

The quality of life change was massive.  We were in Seattle, hated it, and couldn't be happier out on a few acres in rural farm country near family (a couple minute walk to my inlaws place - works great with two kids, it gives my wife a break in the afternoons, I think they're awesome, etc).

I built a shed into an office and work remotely for a few people, doing some deep technical work that is well suited to isolation.  Plus, no commute.

And we have the space to pursue things like solar, greenhouses, etc.  Right now our savings rate consists of "Save up, do property improvements," but those are focused at long term cost reduction and uncertainty reduction (independent energy/food production, etc), and at driving down our long term costs.  What's the return on them?  Hard to say, since I don't know what power/food costs will do in the future, but we've got the capability to function more independently.

* The traffic is horrendous.
* Once you do get somewhere, 5000 people are already there. Hiking areas? Packed. Cultural events? Packed. It feels impossible to get away from people.

I described our view of Seattle to people as "Sitting in traffic to stand in line to spend money around lots of other people."  It sucked.  And, yes, hiking felt like going shopping, with the number of people there.

So, after all that rambling, I guess I'm looking for advice. Any stories about downshifting and its impact on the rest of your life? Anyone else just unable to tolerate city living? I just need some outside perspectives.

We live near family now, spend our time outside, and have all sorts of free or nearly-free activities that we do.  We drive more than we did in Seattle, but have a Volt, so cost per mile remains fairly low (power is cheap out here, and will be going down with our solar - I'll be charging from mid-day surplus, since the car is usually in use in the mornings and occasionally evenings).

But we are so much happier.

Well worth it, even if it takes us a few more years to free our schedules up from work.

I can confirm that this guy totally lives out in the sticks!

[Johnez]

PTF

I live in probably the top 5 or 10 most expensive areas of the US. Being that I love the weather here, I'm kinda scared of being miserable in my skin 50-75% of the year if I move to the humid South, cold/wet PNW, or dry heat of the southwestern desert states...

[Goldielocks]

"the world's longest Bachelors degree program. "

Nah... Dh has attended school for 10 years, off and on, and only 2 of those years was part time (2-3 classes a term)...   He now is the proud holder of 2 diplomas.  Yep.. Not even a bachelor's degree out of it.  Making $66k/yr as an engineering technician / programmer in a very HCOL town.

so, you know, you could have that.   From this angle, I would say get the professional license, and then do the min. to maintain it, and use it to leverage a new role in a new town, even if different.   e.g., if the degree is in earth science, it is not a problem to now work in insurance...

Oh, and PTF.. this is a terrific topic.

I moved from a HCOL of area in 1998 to a M to LCOLA, and then we moved away again after 8 years... being away from family and friends did not make it worthwhile and I was constantly seeking something more.  When we moved, we left behind a nice home that would have been paid off by the time we wer e 38 years old to another HCOL area with 30 year mortgages, again.  UGH.  Trade offs.

[Pushkina2]

I was going to suggest a move to Missoula. Definitely not flat and brown!! When I lived there, it was a quintessential college town with lots of character. The university is going through some tough times with dropping enrollment, but I’d rather live there any day of the week than Helena!

[Dancin'Dog]

We bought land near Boone & built our home and studio in 1997.  Boone "can" have very cold Winters.  Watauga county had areas that measured 100"+ of rainfall in 2018.  Real estate is considered expensive compared to other areas in NC.  Many professors at ASU choose to live in neighboring counties or even in TN because real estate prices are lower there.  Boone has very little buildable land because it's steep and the university students and tourism create high demand. 


I still love Boone, but my wife and daughter (who was born & raised there) have had enough of it.  They'd rather be at a warm beach or lake.  I enjoy riding motorcycles and hate crowds. 


Jobs just don't pay well in Boone.  The only people with money seem to be self employeed or made it elsewhere. 


Boone is also difficult to travel from.  It's an hour to reach any of the surrounding interstates (I-40, I-77, I-81) and the closest large airport is 2 hours (CLT, which seems to unusually high air fares)


If you didn't say you enjoy Cold Winters I'd recommend some other great areas nearby, but Boone is as cold as you'll find in the South.  Roan Mtn & Mt Mitchell have trees that you have to go as far North as Canada to see again. 


If you decide to try Boone I would definitely suggest you rent for a year or two before buying.  It's a great place, but it's not for everyone.  The people, especially the locals, are very friendly.  Out in the county we all wave to each other as we drive around on the backroads, which seems strange at first. 


I'd be happy to answer any questions if you want more info. 

[fuzzy math]

I left Portland but not of my own will. Job BS forced us to. I now live in a Midwest college town. it's pretty fabulous.

I do miss the mountains and skiing but there are a ton of trees here (just not the evergreen variety). The climate leaves some to be desired. But overall I'm way better off. MY house purchase was 60% of what it was in PDX and I make the same salary so we're way ahead. A lot of what I experienced (living on the Beaverton / Hillsboro border) was that all the cool things I wanted out of living "in" Portland were not accessible to me and might not even have been things I would want to do on a regular basis. $60 trendy dinners? Cool, but not really me. concerts? Hell yes, but not really easy given my occupation. I was really spending a lot of live in the suburbs and eat at suburban restaurants. Similar to what was posted above about art museums etc. I only visited OMSI a couple times.

Since your DH has some stuff to take care of, why not take the time to only explore jobs that would put you ahead financially? It's not like you have to move then take a lower paying job. target a few cities, see what your earning potential is, then go if it makes sense.

[englishteacheralex]

PTF! Cool thread!

We live in Honolulu so we do sometimes dream of a LCOL move. But we like living here and don't have a lot of complaints other than the HCOL. And even the HCOL is mitigated by hacks that one acquires over the years.

Still, we definitely like to have our little LCOL fantasies, so we love hearing about neat little under-rated corners of America that are cheap and awesome!

[Lanthiriel]

If you didn't say you enjoy Cold Winters I'd recommend some other great areas nearby, but Boone is as cold as you'll find in the South.  Roan Mtn & Mt Mitchell have trees that you have to go as far North as Canada to see again. 

One thing I didn't mention in my post is that I have close family in West Jefferson. I LOVE West Jefferson. It's exactly the size of town I want to live in. But you're right in that the whole area seems to be a difficult place to make money if you have to be employed by others. I would love to open up a yarn or a book store on West Jefferson's adorable main street, but the possibility (probability?) of failure seems far too high.

I'd be open to thoughts on other areas around Boone, especially if there's a secret town somewhere that might actually be able to stably employ two professionals.

[tyrannostache]

Although it has a college, Helena's not a college town--it's definitely a state government town. That said, it is a pretty great place to live if you can deal with bone-chilling cold and mediocre restaurants. It is definitely NOT flat and brown! Access to outdoor recreation is second to none. You can walk out the front door of your affordable house and access miles and miles of relatively empty hiking/biking trails within 5-10 minutes. It's becoming quite a mountain biking destination, if you're in to that sort of thing. If you have kids, there are a lot of affordable kid activities.

I'd second the suggestion to look more closely at Missoula. The town has great character and better restaurants than Helena. Housing has gone up quite a bit recently, but it seems to be leveling off. It also feels crowded to me. That said, I would happily move there if the right opportunity came up.

Western MT (Missoula) is slightly wetter than Central MT (Helena), but both are much, much drier than the PNW or AK, so our forests aren't as dense or as intensely green as those of the PNW.

Seattleites retiring to Missoula is becoming weirdly common...

[Lanthiriel]

I left Portland but not of my own will. Job BS forced us to. I now live in a Midwest college town. it's pretty fabulous.

I've been thinking about the Midwest. If you look back a couple of years, you'll find a thread where we almost moved to South Bend, Indiana, but for a variety of reasons decided to take the offer in Portland instead. Honestly, I think it was a big mistake. I think I could have learned to like the Midwest and the proximity to Chicago would have been nice for the occasional cultural outing. In the end, it was the flat, flat landscape that killed the idea, along with worries about long-term employment opportunities for my husband and our ability to re-sell whatever house we decided to buy given how slow the market is there.

Anywhere in the Midwest in particular you think some childfree, liberal atheists might find appealing?

[dandypandys]

PTF
Hubs and I are particularly interested in NC. Probably another 12-15 before we can leave the city for our dream of a cottage in the country.

[Cyanne]

I left Portland but not of my own will. Job BS forced us to. I now live in a Midwest college town. it's pretty fabulous.

I've been thinking about the Midwest. If you look back a couple of years, you'll find a thread where we almost moved to South Bend, Indiana, but for a variety of reasons decided to take the offer in Portland instead. Honestly, I think it was a big mistake. I think I could have learned to like the Midwest and the proximity to Chicago would have been nice for the occasional cultural outing. In the end, it was the flat, flat landscape that killed the idea, along with worries about long-term employment opportunities for my husband and our ability to re-sell whatever house we decided to buy given how slow the market is there.

Anywhere in the Midwest in particular you think some childfree, liberal atheists might find appealing?

Minneapolis/St. Pau MN and Madison WI are liberal. Duluth, MN  is liberal and its hills and Lake Superior make it great for outdoor activities. 

[fuzzy math]

I left Portland but not of my own will. Job BS forced us to. I now live in a Midwest college town. it's pretty fabulous.

I've been thinking about the Midwest. If you look back a couple of years, you'll find a thread where we almost moved to South Bend, Indiana, but for a variety of reasons decided to take the offer in Portland instead. Honestly, I think it was a big mistake. I think I could have learned to like the Midwest and the proximity to Chicago would have been nice for the occasional cultural outing. In the end, it was the flat, flat landscape that killed the idea, along with worries about long-term employment opportunities for my husband and our ability to re-sell whatever house we decided to buy given how slow the market is there.

Anywhere in the Midwest in particular you think some childfree, liberal atheists might find appealing?

I'm a childful liberal atheist, and in general I think all the big named cities + any hidden gem college towns would fit your bill. I can only speak for the cities in my current state as I've only lived on the west coast, here and briefly in Tx for school (Houston is pretty liberal too). Columbia, Kansas City and St Louis are all pretty liberal and you could definitely find your niche in any of them. I've not really been to any of the surrounding states here to give much of a comparison. I will say that I feel politics more locally as far as culture. I lived in the red side of WA and it felt more restrictive than living in the blue part of MO if that makes sense.

[fuzzy math]

Here's a worm hole for you to fall in to. Detailed voting maps of the 2016 election. Might help as far as finding your right climate.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/election-2016-voting-precinct-maps.html

[Linea_Norway]

FYI:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/love-where-you-live-tell-me-about-it!/

I understand your wish to move very well. 20 years ago DH and I moved from a MCOL, crowded country with little nature (The Netherlands) to a HCOL, less crowded country (Norway) with lots of nature. I love the fact that it is less crowded and that you can just pack your backpack and go hiking for days, or work into the local forest and pick mushrooms for dinner. It also worked out financially, because the incomes are high and we keep our expenses really low.

But now, the area in which we live and where houses are quite expensive, it is getting more and more crowded. More like the Netherlands were we moved from. Especially the weekends are pretty bad, also in the forest, when going on skiing trips. You always have to pass crowds on a trip.

When we will FIRE, hopefully next year, we want to move to a LCOL area in Norway, somewhere further away from the capital. I am not sure LCOL places really exist in this country. Rural areas do have a lot cheaper houses, but they often pay more property taxes than we do, because their communities are poor and their groceries cost the same as ours. We might also have to drive more, if everything (e.g. hospitals) is further away and the local airport doesn't have direct flights to vacation destinations.

But I would really like to move to a place with mountains, a forest and close to the sea. The kind of places where we move in our summer vacations. We will try to look for a place where you can walk most of the time so that we don't need to drive for performing the daily hobbies. I hope that catching more fish will enable us to save a bit and buy meat less frequently.

All in all I don't expect the rural area to be cheaper overall, and I really hope it will not be more expensive. But I hope we will enjoy it more to live there. Although we don't live in the worse location now either. We already moved out of the city to a MCOL commuting place with a local forest on walking distance. We will be able to change our home for something that costs half of our current home, or less. That other half is a big part of our FIRE budget.

[YoungGranny]

I left Portland but not of my own will. Job BS forced us to. I now live in a Midwest college town. it's pretty fabulous.

I've been thinking about the Midwest. If you look back a couple of years, you'll find a thread where we almost moved to South Bend, Indiana, but for a variety of reasons decided to take the offer in Portland instead. Honestly, I think it was a big mistake. I think I could have learned to like the Midwest and the proximity to Chicago would have been nice for the occasional cultural outing. In the end, it was the flat, flat landscape that killed the idea, along with worries about long-term employment opportunities for my husband and our ability to re-sell whatever house we decided to buy given how slow the market is there.

Anywhere in the Midwest in particular you think some childfree, liberal atheists might find appealing?

Lived in MI most my life - I think you'd do just fine in Lansing, Detroit or Ann Arbor (typically the most popular rec for childfree, liberal atheists). I gotta say Lansing flies under the radar a lot but has a really awesome bike party crew, lots of cool business starting up all the time, and seems to really support a small business culture for the size of the city. I can't speak on Detroit or Ann Arbor as well since I never lived there but Lansing is very low cost of living and I think you'd find a large group of people you'd fit in with. The biggest downside is the weather!

[Dancin'Dog]

If you didn't say you enjoy Cold Winters I'd recommend some other great areas nearby, but Boone is as cold as you'll find in the South.  Roan Mtn & Mt Mitchell have trees that you have to go as far North as Canada to see again. 

One thing I didn't mention in my post is that I have close family in West Jefferson. I LOVE West Jefferson. It's exactly the size of town I want to live in. But you're right in that the whole area seems to be a difficult place to make money if you have to be employed by others. I would love to open up a yarn or a book store on West Jefferson's adorable main street, but the possibility (probability?) of failure seems far too high.

I'd be open to thoughts on other areas around Boone, especially if there's a secret town somewhere that might actually be able to stably employ two professionals.

Well, since you already LOVE West Jefferson I'd say go for it.  But, if your husband can't find a job that pays enough in the area you won't really be happy there.  The Appalachians are known for being an economically difficult place to live.  There are people that figure out their niche and have made their fortunes here, but the majority of people don't find much opportunity.  There are nice towns & small cities that are close to the mountains that have larger populations & flatter land which have more job opportunities.  The Winters aren't as cold, the highways are better, and there's enough flat land for industry and business.  Lenoir, Morganton, Hickory, and Johnson City, TN are worth considering.  ETSU is in Johnson City.  I don't think you're likely to find a "small town" that offers much opportunity, that's why they're small.

[Lanthiriel]

If you didn't say you enjoy Cold Winters I'd recommend some other great areas nearby, but Boone is as cold as you'll find in the South.  Roan Mtn & Mt Mitchell have trees that you have to go as far North as Canada to see again. 

One thing I didn't mention in my post is that I have close family in West Jefferson. I LOVE West Jefferson. It's exactly the size of town I want to live in. But you're right in that the whole area seems to be a difficult place to make money if you have to be employed by others. I would love to open up a yarn or a book store on West Jefferson's adorable main street, but the possibility (probability?) of failure seems far too high.

I'd be open to thoughts on other areas around Boone, especially if there's a secret town somewhere that might actually be able to stably employ two professionals.

Well, since you already LOVE West Jefferson I'd say go for it.  But, if your husband can't find a job that pays enough in the area you won't really be happy there.  The Appalachians are known for being an economically difficult place to live.  There are people that figure out their niche and have made their fortunes here, but the majority of people don't find much opportunity.  There are nice towns & small cities that are close to the mountains that have larger populations & flatter land which have more job opportunities.  The Winters aren't as cold, the highways are better, and there's enough flat land for industry and business.  Lenoir, Morganton, Hickory, and Johnson City, TN are worth considering.  ETSU is in Johnson City.  I don't think you're likely to find a "small town" that offers much opportunity, that's why they're small.

This is the heart of the challenge I'm having. Finding a job that pays $50k/year in Appalachia seems to be like finding a needle in a haystack. I have no expectation of moving somewhere that is cheaper to live and making the same money I do now, but more that I'm looking to scale my current life. I'm looking at a number of places where I would probably take a pay cut of 50%, but housing is only 25% cheaper. So while I understand that opportunity is necessarily limited by population, I am uncomfortable making a move to somewhere that would require me to increase the percent of my total income that I spend vs save.

That said, I'm pretty sure we're the type of people (or at least I'm the type of person) that would make it work. Every time we've faced some serious financial hardship that I thought would ruin us forever, we've actually come out in a better situation at the other end without even much discomfort. That said, I've only been in the professional workforce since 2009 and have yet to have to navigate a recession as a mid-career professional, so I'm hesitant to rely too much on the past to predict our ability to weather future financial challenges.

[merlin7676]

I totally feel for your situation as we're kind of in the same boat.

We live in Seattle but purchased property (land) in Missoula to retire to. While we don't make insane amounts of money, we are doing much better than our peers and on track to retire in about 12 years. 

What made you decide on Missoula? Husband and I are hoping to do a trip to Coeur d’Alene, Whitefish, Missoula, and Helena this summer to get the lay of the land. Montana seems like the Alaska of the Lower 48, but we’re worried we’ll find it open and brown. We’re definitely tree people :)

My husband was born there and lived there for the first 4 years of life. Then they moved north an hour and lived near Flathead lake. When he was 19 he came here for college and never went back.  He wanted to go back home when we retire and since I'm from a small town too and love Missoula, it was an easy decision.
Even though we only have land now (10 acres), we've already started making improvements like road access and trees.  We go back at least once a year and love riding bikes along the river, hitting the farmer's markets, etc.

[Syonyk]

...I am uncomfortable making a move to somewhere that would require me to increase the percent of my total income that I spend vs save.

Why?

If the quality of life is better, and you like what you're doing, the delta could be entirely worth it.

I had a higher savings rate in Seattle, but my wife and I both hated that hellhole.

[peeps_be_peeping]

Why don't you move back to Anchorage? We'd take you back.

[Lanthiriel]

Why don't you move back to Anchorage? We'd take you back.

I've thought about this a lot as it's literally the only place I could go where I know I'd be happy BUT the cost of living is just too high for the level of job instability. The current politics in Anchorage with the new Governor make me very worried for the long-term viability of the Alaskan economy. I have a pretty guaranteed job up there too that pays decently well, but not well enough that my husband could stay home. There seem to be lots of multi-family rentals on the market, but again the economy makes me very worried about stretching our dollars to afford a multi-family house and then not be able to find tenants.

...I am uncomfortable making a move to somewhere that would require me to increase the percent of my total income that I spend vs save.

Why?

If the quality of life is better, and you like what you're doing, the delta could be entirely worth it.

I had a higher savings rate in Seattle, but my wife and I both hated that hellhole.

You're probably right about this. I may just need to adjust my expectations as I work through this.

[dougules]

Is it possible you could move somewhere now that allows you to really save up, and then move back to Alaska once you've got some passive income going?

[The 585]

DC area here. We tolerate it for now because we make decent money, but definitely looking to downshift in the next year or so and move to LCOL or MCOL somewhere in the southeast US.

[peeps_be_peeping]

I've thought about this a lot as it's literally the only place I could go where I know I'd be happy BUT the cost of living is just too high for the level of job instability. The current politics in Anchorage with the new Governor make me very worried for the long-term viability of the Alaskan economy. I have a pretty guaranteed job up there too that pays decently well, but not well enough that my husband could stay home. There seem to be lots of multi-family rentals on the market, but again the economy makes me very worried about stretching our dollars to afford a multi-family house and then not be able to find tenants.

I don't blame you. Nobody knows how the current situation will shake out. Wait to come back until you are closer to FIRE and relatively more immune to local budget and economy issues.

[rothwem]

If you didn't say you enjoy Cold Winters I'd recommend some other great areas nearby, but Boone is as cold as you'll find in the South.  Roan Mtn & Mt Mitchell have trees that you have to go as far North as Canada to see again. 

One thing I didn't mention in my post is that I have close family in West Jefferson. I LOVE West Jefferson. It's exactly the size of town I want to live in. But you're right in that the whole area seems to be a difficult place to make money if you have to be employed by others. I would love to open up a yarn or a book store on West Jefferson's adorable main street, but the possibility (probability?) of failure seems far too high.

I'd be open to thoughts on other areas around Boone, especially if there's a secret town somewhere that might actually be able to stably employ two professionals.

Well, since you already LOVE West Jefferson I'd say go for it.  But, if your husband can't find a job that pays enough in the area you won't really be happy there.  The Appalachians are known for being an economically difficult place to live.  There are people that figure out their niche and have made their fortunes here, but the majority of people don't find much opportunity.  There are nice towns & small cities that are close to the mountains that have larger populations & flatter land which have more job opportunities.  The Winters aren't as cold, the highways are better, and there's enough flat land for industry and business.  Lenoir, Morganton, Hickory, and Johnson City, TN are worth considering.  ETSU is in Johnson City.  I don't think you're likely to find a "small town" that offers much opportunity, that's why they're small.

This is the heart of the challenge I'm having. Finding a job that pays $50k/year in Appalachia seems to be like finding a needle in a haystack. I have no expectation of moving somewhere that is cheaper to live and making the same money I do now, but more that I'm looking to scale my current life. I'm looking at a number of places where I would probably take a pay cut of 50%, but housing is only 25% cheaper. So while I understand that opportunity is necessarily limited by population, I am uncomfortable making a move to somewhere that would require me to increase the percent of my total income that I spend vs save.

That said, I'm pretty sure we're the type of people (or at least I'm the type of person) that would make it work. Every time we've faced some serious financial hardship that I thought would ruin us forever, we've actually come out in a better situation at the other end without even much discomfort. That said, I've only been in the professional workforce since 2009 and have yet to have to navigate a recession as a mid-career professional, so I'm hesitant to rely too much on the past to predict our ability to weather future financial challenges.

Maybe try to find the job before you move?  I lived in Raleigh for a while and always wanted to live in Asheville, so I set up a job notification with Indeed and kinda forgot about it.  6 months later, a job popped up that I was qualified for and I ended up snagging it and moving out here.  You might find the same thing in Boone. 

Boone, btw, is fucking gorgeous.  The main industries however, are tourism, the college, and catering to rich retired people. I'm thinking that finding a traditional job might be tricky.

[Watchmaker]

Anywhere in the Midwest in particular you think some childfree, liberal atheists might find appealing?

It's not mountains by any stretch of the imagination, but check out the Driftless Area in SW Wisconsin / SE Minnesota / NE Iowa. It's a region of the midwest that was never flattened by glaciers in the last ice age, so it still has rolling hills and valleys. Very popular for biking, fishing, hiking. Cold winters.

No big cities, a few small/medium ones (like La Crosse or Dubuque), and a bunch of great little towns, many of which are very liberal (for interesting political, geographical, and even geological reasons). Madison is just outside the area. As is Iowa City, on the other side.

[Off the Wheel]

Great thread, and similar to what I came here to post.

My husband and I feel stuck in Vancouver. The descriptions of Seattle are so similar. Stuck in traffic all week, spending more money to do anything than you should, and then any accessible weekend adventure is clogged with people. It's only getting worse.

Our dream is to sell the condo and townhouse we've managed to buy, and clear enough to get a small house on a small piece of land in a smaller community. We're attached to the climate/politics/outdoors of coastal BC, but there are a few towns that fit our bill where we could get something decent for $500K (a house in Vancouver is $1.2+).

The big challenge is both the perceived risk in stepping off the job ladder, and the unknown. I have a career I've been successful in and a great position at a company I love, and though DH changed careers a couple of years ago for more flexibility, most of the jobs are still in the big city. We wouldn't have the same opportunities (or income) in a smaller town. The other piece is the 'is the grass greener?" question. I've only ever lived in large cities, though DH grew up somewhat rurally. Could I actually enjoy it? Would I be trading off one annoyance for another?

OP, it sounds like you know what you want. I hope you're brave enough to make the leap.

[Syonyk]

The big challenge is both the perceived risk in stepping off the job ladder, and the unknown. I have a career I've been successful in and a great position at a company I love, and though DH changed careers a couple of years ago for more flexibility, most of the jobs are still in the big city. We wouldn't have the same opportunities (or income) in a smaller town.

How much does your company like you?  Would they be agreeable to a remote position (ideally, part time as well)?  If you can leverage that position into something remote, even for a major pay cut, you'll come out quite a bit ahead in a cheaper area.  Build a shed into an office.  They rock.

The other piece is the 'is the grass greener?" question. I've only ever lived in large cities, though DH grew up somewhat rurally. Could I actually enjoy it? Would I be trading off one annoyance for another?

Rural life is entirely different from city life.  The number one way to get frustrated with rural living is to compare it to city living and assert that it sucks because it doesn't have the same things.

Living rural vs suburban/urban, in no particular order:
- Delivery food isn't an option.  I might be able to get Dominoes to deliver.  Maybe.  I'm actually not sure.  And they probably couldn't find the place.
- Yes, we drive more.  Walking into town isn't so much an option, though bicycling may be.  On the flip side, it means that we do shopping in bulk, which reduces costs.
- I can't reliably get Uber or Lyft to show up.  Sometimes, they might, but certainly not reliably enough that i could rely on them for travel.  Taxi companies, on the other hand, work nicely for getting me to an airport early in the morning.
- Gunshots aren't a thing to worry about - I hear (depending on the wind) one or two different ranges, and plenty of people shooting on their property (target practice, pest control, etc).
- In general, nobody (outside code enforcement folks) tell me what I can or can't do - which is awesome.
- I can see the Milky Way from my front steps on a good night.

It's different, rather entirely, from city life.  It's slower paced, the internet usually sucks, and you'd best be able to entertain yourself.  But, given that, I far, far prefer rural living.

[Off the Wheel]

The big challenge is both the perceived risk in stepping off the job ladder, and the unknown. I have a career I've been successful in and a great position at a company I love, and though DH changed careers a couple of years ago for more flexibility, most of the jobs are still in the big city. We wouldn't have the same opportunities (or income) in a smaller town.

How much does your company like you?  Would they be agreeable to a remote position (ideally, part time as well)?  If you can leverage that position into something remote, even for a major pay cut, you'll come out quite a bit ahead in a cheaper area.  Build a shed into an office.  They rock.

The other piece is the 'is the grass greener?" question. I've only ever lived in large cities, though DH grew up somewhat rurally. Could I actually enjoy it? Would I be trading off one annoyance for another?

Rural life is entirely different from city life.  The number one way to get frustrated with rural living is to compare it to city living and assert that it sucks because it doesn't have the same things.

Living rural vs suburban/urban, in no particular order:
- Delivery food isn't an option.  I might be able to get Dominoes to deliver.  Maybe.  I'm actually not sure.  And they probably couldn't find the place.
- Yes, we drive more.  Walking into town isn't so much an option, though bicycling may be.  On the flip side, it means that we do shopping in bulk, which reduces costs.
- I can't reliably get Uber or Lyft to show up.  Sometimes, they might, but certainly not reliably enough that i could rely on them for travel.  Taxi companies, on the other hand, work nicely for getting me to an airport early in the morning.
- Gunshots aren't a thing to worry about - I hear (depending on the wind) one or two different ranges, and plenty of people shooting on their property (target practice, pest control, etc).
- In general, nobody (outside code enforcement folks) tell me what I can or can't do - which is awesome.
- I can see the Milky Way from my front steps on a good night.

It's different, rather entirely, from city life.  It's slower paced, the internet usually sucks, and you'd best be able to entertain yourself.  But, given that, I far, far prefer rural living.

My company likes me a lot, but it's a small company and my role is sort of the glue that holds it all together. I have a large department and connect a lot of the others, and couldn't do my job remotely unless it changed significantly. But I will god willing be going on maternity leave in 6 months, and in Canada that lasts for 12-18 months, so we'll all have to adjust.

Yes, at this age and this stage I don't think rural life would bother me. We rarely go out to eat (my husband is a better chef than almost any restaurant in town), we never get delivery, and our interests are heavily outdoors/rural anyway (DIY, hiking, camping, cooking). The city is actually more of a pain than a benefit... except for those pesky jobs.