Author Topic: Mortgage Renewal: Options and alternatives (such as the 'all-in-one' account)  (Read 3845 times)

finance learner

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Hello fellow Mustachians!

I'm in Canada and my mortgage (of about $360,000) is coming up for renewal in a few months. Current rate I have is 2.64% annually.

My goal is to pay this off within about 10 years (maybe that's kind of long by Mustachian standards but I am a single working mom). I was going to do the typical thing. Look around for the best rates; go to my bank and ask them if they could match this. Go for another 5 year fixed terms (likely variable might be less costly but then again it's variable). At the same time, try to put more money into my RRSP for a higher tax refund and then take some of that refund to pay down the mortgage directly.

I was wondering if anyone has heard of the Manualife All in one product. There's an old blog here: https://milliondollarjourney.com/manulife-one-mortgage-review.htm that is interesting.

Essentially they're saying:

"The M1 mortgage operates like a giant secured line of credit and checking account combined into one. Within the M1 mortgage holds ALL of your debts, including your mortgage, car loans etc. The twist that M1 offers is that you deposit ALL of your INCOME into the M1 account so that any savings at the end of the month works against the DEBT instead of just sitting in your stagnant checking account."

Some questions:
1. Can anyone provide their recommendations on that approach or the 'traditional' approach?
2. Any ideas on what you would consider a "good" interest rate in Canada (west coast) or even how to get the best rate?
3. Any other suggestions on the route I should take?
I'm open to any ideas.

Thanks!




Stashasaurus

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Hi Finance Learner,

That Manulife One Account you reference does not look very appealing.

  • $16.95monthly fee
  • 5 year closed rate is 3.79. CIBC's posted 5 year fixed is 3.06%

Taking a look at ratehub or ratesupermarket. They will tell you what is available in your market. This will also tell you what a "good rate" is.
As far as any other ideas, is there a reason to push for paying off the mortgage in 10 years? There have been many debates on the forum about investing vs paying off a mortgage. Is this a settled matter for you?

finance learner

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Thanks very much for your suggestions Stashasaurus! I'm going to reconsider the 10 year time frame. It's just that I don't really like debt sitting on top of me but I will research further into investing vs. paying this off as an alternative option (that likely reaps a better outcome in the long run).

Retire-Canada

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Hello fellow Mustachians!

I'm in Canada and my mortgage (of about $360,000) is coming up for renewal in a few months. Current rate I have is 2.64% annually.

My goal is to pay this off within about 10 years (maybe that's kind of long by Mustachian standards but I am a single working mom).

My mortgage is a bit less than $300K and I have no plans to pay it off anytime soon. My renewal is this year and I'll extend the amortization back out to 25yrs to lower my payments. I will also negotiate my variable mortgage rate to be prime - X% where X will be as large as possible...definitely high than my current -0.75%.

In 5 years when my mortgage comes up for renewal again I'll take out $100K-$200K of equity to invest/spend in FIRE. As long as interests rates stay low I will drag out my mortgage because with a sub-2% mortgage and ~2% inflation this is effectively a "free" loan in real terms. I have enough low/no tax $$ in my TFSA/NR accounts to pay off mortgage anytime if rates were to go up like crazy suddenly. My mortgage is very flexible in terms of accelerated repayments.

All this to say paying off your mortgage in 10 years seems aggressive to me. Not saying it's the wrong thing to do, but don't criticize yourself about it.

RichMoose

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Hello fellow Mustachians!

I'm in Canada and my mortgage (of about $360,000) is coming up for renewal in a few months. Current rate I have is 2.64% annually.

My goal is to pay this off within about 10 years (maybe that's kind of long by Mustachian standards but I am a single working mom).

My mortgage is a bit less than $300K and I have no plans to pay it off anytime soon. My renewal is this year and I'll extend the amortization back out to 25yrs to lower my payments. I will also negotiate my variable mortgage rate to be prime - X% where X will be as large as possible...definitely high than my current -0.75%.

In 5 years when my mortgage comes up for renewal again I'll take out $100K-$200K of equity to invest/spend in FIRE. As long as interests rates stay low I will drag out my mortgage because with a sub-2% mortgage and ~2% inflation this is effectively a "free" loan in real terms. I have enough low/no tax $$ in my TFSA/NR accounts to pay off mortgage anytime if rates were to go up like crazy suddenly. My mortgage is very flexible in terms of accelerated repayments.

All this to say paying off your mortgage in 10 years seems aggressive to me. Not saying it's the wrong thing to do, but don't criticize yourself about it.

Why not do a Smith Manoeuvre and collect the tax refunds on a portion of, or all of the loan interest? (Dependent on the size of your NR account right now.)

Retire-Canada

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Why not do a Smith Manoeuvre and collect the tax refunds on a portion of, or all of the loan interest? (Dependent on the size of your NR account right now.)

My financial life is really simple. I'm not eager to make it more complicated. Perhaps once I am FIREd I'll feel differently.

finance learner

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I think I'm heeding your advice here Retire-Canada and RichMoose and can feel a bit relaxed about not paying off the mortgage in 10 years as long as I keep on increasing the other investments. There's still room in my RRSPs so I can certainly up that.

I'm going to not bother making any prepayments to the mortgage and invest in low fee investments (mainly balanced ETFs right now).

Regardless I am still scouting around for a mortgage and wanting to find something better than the banks offer. CanWise rates seem to be better than the banks but not sure if there's something unique about the terms.

Anyone has experience with CanWise?

RichMoose

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I think I'm heeding your advice here Retire-Canada and RichMoose and can feel a bit relaxed about not paying off the mortgage in 10 years as long as I keep on increasing the other investments. There's still room in my RRSPs so I can certainly up that.

I'm going to not bother making any prepayments to the mortgage and invest in low fee investments (mainly balanced ETFs right now).

Regardless I am still scouting around for a mortgage and wanting to find something better than the banks offer. CanWise rates seem to be better than the banks but not sure if there's something unique about the terms.

Anyone has experience with CanWise?

I should mention that the decision to speed up your mortgage payoff is totally a personal decision and I didn't intend to sway you. This topic has been beat to death mercilessly on every finance forum and the end is always the same: investing tends to be better mathematically for greater overall wealth, but mortgage payoff can provide a sense of security that some people don't get with an investment account. The Smith Manoeuvre can offer the best of both words, with a bonus massive tax break.

No experience with CanWise, but they're a brokerage company. I would go to a few banks and ask for a rate quote on a 5-year variable. HSBC, Vancity CU, and TD seem to be pretty hungry right now for a good customer. I've always been sympathetic to the philosophy of credit unions over the big corporate banks, so I have used them if they can provide a competitive rate with good terms. Shop around, often you can get better rate than the posted online rate if your credit is good and your home equity is substantial.

daverobev

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Everyone has always said a mortgage broker will save you. It's true - I was lazy and went with a family-recommended person and, while they were ok, we were certainly paying a little more than we should have.

Mortgage interest is a large amount, especially on (what I would consider) a large mortgage. So if you can shave 0.25% or even more off.. that's a lot.

finance learner

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Thanks RichMoose and Daverobev!
Re: Mortgage rates
Hmmm I managed to get in touch with a decision maker at a bank through a personal contact - also going to at least speak to the individual at Canwise (they seem interesting as they are salaried and not commission based - or so he is telling me).

What I'm learning is that never take the first offer from your existing financial institution - hunt around. Also devoting a lot of time doing this stuff is so helpful in the end if it means saving a lot of $$$.

Also the option I am looking at is more like a HELOC so there's still flexibility for taking additional money out if needed but the main mortgage portion would be locked into a fixed mortgage rate.

Re: Smith Manoeuvre

Perhaps a compromise position is for me to not be so aggressive with my mortgage payments - I was paying an accelerated amount. Rather I can use that amount of money to at least maximize my RRSP and TFSA contributions. That way there isn't such a heavy feeling of debt and uncertainty (as I don't feel I know enough about this strategy to properly execute on it). Also as I'm a sole income earning individual with dependents my risk tolerance is likely lower than some.







c-kat

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We have the M1 account and love it because of the flexibility.  Because you get 80% of house value available to you, you can borrow to invest, buy a car etc. You can pay more when you have more and less when you'd rather spend your money on something else.  BTW, you can negotiate lower rates than what is posted.  We show them what we can get on ratehub or through a mortgage broker and they match it. I do recommend locking in most of it in as the open part is prime plus something so makes it a higher rate.

finance learner

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Thanks for your response. So many options.

Also I see that CanWise were recommending EQ bank with quite a low interest rate. Not sure if anyone has had experience with a mortgage at EQ bank?

K-ice

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Also the option I am looking at is more like a HELOC so there's still flexibility for taking additional money out if needed but the main mortgage portion would be locked into a fixed mortgage rate.

This is what we did. 25y mortgage with TD and a HELOC. As we paid down the mortgage our HELOC & room to borrow grew. (MMM calls this springy debt.) For the first 5 years we were lucky to never borrow against the HELOC.  We actually kept enough of a + balance in our HELOC that it worked like a checking account and all house taxes and bills were paid from it. We closed our checking account that either had fees or a $2000 balance.  Also if it does slip slightly below zero it is just pennies in interest compared to overdraft on a checking account. So it kind of works like the Manualife ONE account except it doesn't make + interest but also doesn't cost $16.

We paid it all off in 6 years before I heard about the math of the "do not pay off your mortgage club".  At the 5 year mark it was nice to not "renew" our mortgage as it just went into the floating HELOC part seamlessly. Knowing our time horizon was near the end, I was not worried about the variable rate & grateful to not negotiate a new mortgage. (I feel your current pain.)

One mistake was we were so set on paying the mortgage we weren't even maxing our RRSP.

So my advice.

1) Get a blended HELOC mortgage.
2) Get it the fixed portion for 25 years. (you can always pay it faster in step 5)
3) Close you checking account and use your HELOC (Not critical, but a CPA friend gave me this advice about 15 years ago)
4) Max your tax advantage investment accounts or at least upto 15%.
5) Pay what you want extra towards your mortgage. 
6) Invest in taxable accounts

Your call if you focus on 5 or 6. But don't do 5 at the expense of 4. I kind of like the strategy to build up 6 until you can do 5 in one lump sum.

**** I would only recommend the HELOC to someone who is otherwise debt free & great with credit cards. The temptation of the HELOC is like a Siren to a Sailor.

We have since used it to "pay-off" the mortgage on a rental property when the other bank literally told us we would need to leave and come back as a new client to get the advertised rate. We left and never came back.

We also helped bridge a deal on a property that needed to be acted on quickly before the loan could be obtained on that property.

Recently, we had to use it as an emergency fund for about $12,000 and the interest was only $55 before we were able to dig ourselves out.

Goldielocks

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Appologies for replying to an older post, but I have direct experience with this one.

1) Manulife One -- we had this for 5 years.   I would not do it again. 
a) It is like you need to be super - MMM to make it work.  I am very attentive to all of this stuff and it still was a fight with human nature.  Doing it as a couple was worse.  So easy to let the declining balance not decline or drift up (Christmas, vacation, etc) for those big one-off events.
b)  The rate was not super competitive, on par at best.
c)  Even with that, when the Bank of Canada dropped rates by 0.25%, or 0.5%, they would delay 6 months (or never) to drop their prime rate.  Their prime rate was always slower than the banks to move down, and first to move up.
d)  The first line mortgage amount they put on your home is for over 80% of the FMV, even if your starting balance is 50% FMV.  They had a very generous appraiser.  This left almost no room for other lenders to give their best rates to us for CC's, private loans, etc (if you need that).
e) There were higher than expected fees to close out the account and for misc. bank fees.
f)  We were charged $14/mo as a "chequing account". It's up to $17/mo now.  With your current bank, are you paying $17/mo in fees?

If you are MMM by nature, the HELOC option is a lot better for $$ control.  Heaps and heaps better.

2) Best rates
For recent mortgage renewal (last summer), we went with an independent broker and got quotes from two different non-bank major lenders in Canada.  We ended up at 5 yr variable Prime - 1.15%.  This is 6+ months ago, but at that time both TD and CIBC refused to even try to come up with a counter offer when we had this one in hand, because it was so much lower than what they were offering their best customers.