Author Topic: MMM type of truck to haul toys  (Read 3566 times)

clarkfan1979

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MMM type of truck to haul toys
« on: September 13, 2020, 06:38:58 AM »
I have close to 0% knowledge of trucks. I currently drive a 2007 Pontiac Vibe with 165,000 miles.

What is a practical way to haul a 20' deck boat? It's an 8 minute drive to the local reservior. I would also like to haul snowmobiles in the winter time. That drive will be 1-2 hours to the mountains.

10 year old truck? 20 year old truck? Gas or Diesel?

use2betrix

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2020, 06:51:58 AM »
How heavy are the pontoon/trailers you intend to tow?

Will this be your DD replacing the vibe, or mostly just for towing?

Rough price range?

clarkfan1979

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2020, 07:18:51 AM »
In this hypothetical scenario, I think the truck would become my DD. My commute is 20 miles round trip. I commute 128 days/year.

I'm guessing the boat and trailer is around 5,000 pounds. The snowmobile trailer is maybe 4000 pounds total.

I'm not fully committed to doing this, I'm just trying to get an idea of cost.

I'm trying to take a long term strategy for cost. I would be willing to spend more on a truck if it's more likely to hold value.

My previous strategy for cars was 10 years old and 100,000 miles. Does the same logic work for trucks?

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2020, 07:26:02 AM »
Have you read mmm's blog at all?

Paper Chaser

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2020, 08:31:49 AM »
The short trip with the boat can be done with a lot of different vehicles, not necessarily a pickup truck.
The long trip with the snowmobiles is the much harder task. Naturally aspirated engines lose significant power at altitude, so a forced induction engine (turbocharged or supercharged) is probably the better choice for that scenario.
You may be able to find old Nissan Frontiers or XTerras with the factory supercharged v6 for pretty cheap, but your towing is probably close to or beyond their max (I haven't researched their tow ratings) and they'll be old and have old truck problems. Probably the lowest buy in though.

If the budget can be stretched more, an older diesel full size truck (all three companies offered turbo diesels by 2000 I think) will be more capable. Diesels require more maintenance, the fuel costs more, and it can be harder to find than gasoline, but they're designed for work. Theyd barely be strained by 5-8k through the mountains, and they'll get better fuel economy while working. Initial buy-in is higher, but depreciation is lower. Between that and the fuel/maintenance cost difference, math is required to figure out which is a better fit.

Third option might be a newer Ford with an EcoBoost engine. F150s are ubiquitous so you'd have tons of choices but An SUV with the same power train (Expedition) can be an overlooked good deal if you don't need the open bed.

4th option is used commercial work vans with turbo Diesel engines. Like the SUVs, they're often much cheaper than the pickup trucks with similar capabilities. GM and Ford are by far the most common. They're based on the diesel truck platforms but offer tons more interior storage. Vans can be a nightmare to work on, but when they're working they're a pretty great Swiss Army knife of a vehicle.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 08:35:15 AM by Paper Chaser »

Papa bear

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2020, 08:35:12 AM »
I pull out a 24í pontoon boat and trailer with a Jeep Cherokee (the small one) that has the towing option added (4500lb limit)  My wife wanted a small suv, I didnít want something like that if it didnít pull anything, why even buy one that canít do itís intended purpose? Otherwise itís just a lifted car which is dumb. 

It gets 30mpg highway and has no problem walking out the boat from the launch.  It also has no problem hauling closed or open trailers Iíve rented for construction projects or moving lots of furniture. 

Long story short.  You donít ďneedĒ a truck.  You can find a small suv that has a towing package to handle your towing and still get decent mileage.


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Retire-Canada

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2020, 09:05:42 AM »
Have you read mmm's blog at all?

Ha! This!

Just stop with the boats and snowmobiles. Get kayaks and snowshoes and use your existing vehicle to move them around. :-)

clarkfan1979

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2020, 09:27:37 AM »
The short trip with the boat can be done with a lot of different vehicles, not necessarily a pickup truck.
The long trip with the snowmobiles is the much harder task. Naturally aspirated engines lose significant power at altitude, so a forced induction engine (turbocharged or supercharged) is probably the better choice for that scenario.
You may be able to find old Nissan Frontiers or XTerras with the factory supercharged v6 for pretty cheap, but your towing is probably close to or beyond their max (I haven't researched their tow ratings) and they'll be old and have old truck problems. Probably the lowest buy in though.

If the budget can be stretched more, an older diesel full size truck (all three companies offered turbo diesels by 2000 I think) will be more capable. Diesels require more maintenance, the fuel costs more, and it can be harder to find than gasoline, but they're designed for work. Theyd barely be strained by 5-8k through the mountains, and they'll get better fuel economy while working. Initial buy-in is higher, but depreciation is lower. Between that and the fuel/maintenance cost difference, math is required to figure out which is a better fit.

Third option might be a newer Ford with an EcoBoost engine. F150s are ubiquitous so you'd have tons of choices but An SUV with the same power train (Expedition) can be an overlooked good deal if you don't need the open bed.

4th option is used commercial work vans with turbo Diesel engines. Like the SUVs, they're often much cheaper than the pickup trucks with similar capabilities. GM and Ford are by far the most common. They're based on the diesel truck platforms but offer tons more interior storage. Vans can be a nightmare to work on, but when they're working they're a pretty great Swiss Army knife of a vehicle.

Thanks for all the info.

Option #4 looks really interesting. Would it be fair to say that the diesel trucks are meant to town 10,000 pounds+, but the diesel work vans are more for 5,000-10,000 pounds? If the diesel work vans are cheaper and you get more interior storage, that might be a good fit for me.

Anyone know if there is a big difference in driving safety in the Colorado mountains with snow with a diesel work van or diesel truck?

My insurance on my Vibe is $37/month and registration is $65/year. Could I justify keeping it, or should it go? I'm looking to purchase in May 2022, so I've got some time before I make a decision.

Paper Chaser

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2020, 09:54:58 AM »
The short trip with the boat can be done with a lot of different vehicles, not necessarily a pickup truck.
The long trip with the snowmobiles is the much harder task. Naturally aspirated engines lose significant power at altitude, so a forced induction engine (turbocharged or supercharged) is probably the better choice for that scenario.
You may be able to find old Nissan Frontiers or XTerras with the factory supercharged v6 for pretty cheap, but your towing is probably close to or beyond their max (I haven't researched their tow ratings) and they'll be old and have old truck problems. Probably the lowest buy in though.

If the budget can be stretched more, an older diesel full size truck (all three companies offered turbo diesels by 2000 I think) will be more capable. Diesels require more maintenance, the fuel costs more, and it can be harder to find than gasoline, but they're designed for work. Theyd barely be strained by 5-8k through the mountains, and they'll get better fuel economy while working. Initial buy-in is higher, but depreciation is lower. Between that and the fuel/maintenance cost difference, math is required to figure out which is a better fit.

Third option might be a newer Ford with an EcoBoost engine. F150s are ubiquitous so you'd have tons of choices but An SUV with the same power train (Expedition) can be an overlooked good deal if you don't need the open bed.

4th option is used commercial work vans with turbo Diesel engines. Like the SUVs, they're often much cheaper than the pickup trucks with similar capabilities. GM and Ford are by far the most common. They're based on the diesel truck platforms but offer tons more interior storage. Vans can be a nightmare to work on, but when they're working they're a pretty great Swiss Army knife of a vehicle.

Thanks for all the info.

Option #4 looks really interesting. Would it be fair to say that the diesel trucks are meant to town 10,000 pounds+, but the diesel work vans are more for 5,000-10,000 pounds? If the diesel work vans are cheaper and you get more interior storage, that might be a good fit for me.

Anyone know if there is a big difference in driving safety in the Colorado mountains with snow with a diesel work van or diesel truck?

My insurance on my Vibe is $37/month and registration is $65/year. Could I justify keeping it, or should it go? I'm looking to purchase in May 2022, so I've got some time before I make a decision.

The vans are often loaded down with thousands of pounds of tools and materials when working, so overall capacity is likely pretty comparable to the trucks. It is much harder to find 4wd equipped vans than trucks, which may make/break the deal in Colorado mountains. The van is going to have a larger cross section, so cross winds will be more noticeable than with a truck too.

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2020, 10:39:26 AM »
For that size stuff, I'd suggest a diesel truck. They'll easily get 200k+ miles, often 300k+, and hold value well. Yes they cost more up front ($15k-$20k for 10+ yrs old), but you can sell it for that years later too. Towing capacity can't be matched. MPG will be 12-15, depending on variables. If you are FI or close, this is a really cost effective way to get all the toys for a lot less.

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2020, 10:54:23 AM »
Option #4 looks really interesting. Would it be fair to say that the diesel trucks are meant to town 10,000 pounds+, but the diesel work vans are more for 5,000-10,000 pounds? If the diesel work vans are cheaper and you get more interior storage, that might be a good fit for me.

Nope. Wouldn't be fair to say that at all. A 2500 van will tow more than a 1500 truck. A 1/2 ton truck from 2010 will tow more than a 3/4 ton truck from 1990. There are no "baseline" rules, just go by the specs listed for the vehicle. A modern gas motor gets better gas mileage than an older diesel one. Modern gas truck motors last 300K with basic maintenance.

Newer diesel vehicles maintenance is shiite. The EPA regulations make their exhaust systems complicated and expensive. Most new fleet vehicles are gas now because of this. Diesel will still put out more torque and have their benefits as work tools, but the benefits aren't there like they used to be for the purpose that you're talking about.

But did you see the other suggestions? Have you read the blog? The advice to buy a vehicle to fit what you will use 95% of the time is good. If you are mostly commuting solo, then buy a commuter that can just barely tow what you need. No reason at all to get a work truck to haul toys 10 times a year and then commute the other 128 days!

How would you do your activities if you didn't own a truck? Are there any other more efficient workarounds? What kind of boat trips are you envisioning, and are you perhaps romanticizing the frequency and enjoyment that you will get from sinking so much money into it? Will you take it out 6-7 times the first summer, then maybe 4-5 the summer after, then 2-3 times just the summer after, mostly to justify owning it? Could you substitute a family outing with a canoe, getting more fit while doing so as well as more endorphins from the activity? Can you rent snowmobiles 3 times a year and then forget about storage, maintenance, towing and all of the stuff that goes with owning them?


« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 10:59:33 AM by StashingAway »

I'm a red panda

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2020, 02:48:55 PM »
Have you read mmm's blog at all?

Yeah- MMM doesn't match any of the words in this title.


clarkfan1979

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2020, 03:11:34 PM »
It looks like the consensus is to get something with the best gas mileage that will haul 5,000 pounds, which seems to be on the lower end for hauling, so I should have plenty of options.

Yes, I have been reading the blog since March 2014. He offers one suggestion on how to buy a work truck. His overall advice for trucks is to not purchase them because they are stupid and serve no utility. However, I would be buying the vehicle for utility.

I do not work a traditional 9-5 office job. I teach community college. I work 32 weeks/year and have 20 weeks off. During the semester, I do not teach on Fridays, so when I am working, I always have a 3-day weekend. 

I think I would average around 10-15 days/year for snowmobiling and 40-50 days/year on the boat.

You can rent snowmobiles, but not all places offer unguided tours. The cost for two snowmobiles would be $525 for a 4.5 hours. To rent a pontoon boat is $350/day. However, you cannot water ski behind a pontoon.

Papa bear

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2020, 08:04:25 PM »
It looks like the consensus is to get something with the best gas mileage that will haul 5,000 pounds, which seems to be on the lower end for hauling, so I should have plenty of options.

Yes, I have been reading the blog since March 2014. He offers one suggestion on how to buy a work truck. His overall advice for trucks is to not purchase them because they are stupid and serve no utility. However, I would be buying the vehicle for utility.

I do not work a traditional 9-5 office job. I teach community college. I work 32 weeks/year and have 20 weeks off. During the semester, I do not teach on Fridays, so when I am working, I always have a 3-day weekend. 

I think I would average around 10-15 days/year for snowmobiling and 40-50 days/year on the boat.

You can rent snowmobiles, but not all places offer unguided tours. The cost for two snowmobiles would be $525 for a 4.5 hours. To rent a pontoon boat is $350/day. However, you cannot water ski behind a pontoon.
Canít water ski behind a pontoon? We can get people up with a pontoon with a little 60hp outboard =P  not very fun though...

I would see how much your stuff actually weighs and go off of that.   


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FiveSigmas

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2020, 08:50:44 PM »
Iím pretty sure heíd recommend this one:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

I donít see a problem with disagreeing with Pete, but itís kinda weird to co-opt his opinions do so while pretending to agree with him.

Edit: ugh ó ďco-optĒ was not the word I was looking for.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 10:11:31 AM by FiveSigmas »

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2020, 04:46:01 AM »
Iím pretty sure heíd recommend this one:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

I donít see a problem with disagreeing with Pete, but itís kinda weird to co-opt his opinions.

So disagreeing is fine, but agreeing is not? Jk ;)

It's more of a mental exercise to try to simplify life and make the most of your money. Sort hyperbolic of what will happen in reality. Pushing the ideas past convention to see what is out there and if anything sticks, then pulling it back to something you find comfortable. Using the Anchoring Effect to your advantage. It's not that Pete is an untouchable mythical Wunderkind, but it's kind of the spirit of the mindset to re-analyze what actually makes you happy and how to maximize that. Is power-boating and snowmobiling going to make a substantial difference in one's happiness? If not, can you really afford it?

For a professor with summers off, it might indeed be a wonderful use of time to make use of a reservoir 8 miles away. I personally get bored on boats (and have much more fun in canoes), but some people like that lifestyle. Most of my acquaintances who have deck boats take them out maybe 5-10 times a year, and it takes a lot of stressful setup and planning to do so.

I'm a red panda

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2020, 06:15:24 AM »


It's more of a mental exercise to try to simplify life and make the most of your money. Sort hyperbolic of what will happen in reality. Pushing the ideas past convention to see what is out there and if anything sticks, then pulling it back to something you find comfortable. Using the Anchoring Effect to your advantage. It's not that Pete is an untouchable mythical Wunderkind, but it's kind of the spirit of the mindset to re-analyze what actually makes you happy and how to maximize that. Is power-boating and snowmobiling going to make a substantial difference in one's happiness? If not, can you really afford it?


Pete is not just about money though. His values heavily stress low environmental impact. 

So "what's the most frugal way to do this generally expensive thing" is a reasonable question, but attaching MMM to a gigantic truck to haul a motorized toy, that doesn't seem in line with anything MMM has ever blogged about.  I think that's why people, myself included, object.

(I don't think you have to agree with everything about what he says. I personally think most people who are FIRE aren't actually retired, they just went to jobs they like better, usually working for themselves.)

the_fixer

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MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2020, 07:25:21 AM »
Not sure there is a MMM type truck...

But for towing.

Might keep an eye out for an AWD Chevy express.

5.3 Chevy motor and good towing capacity, AWD, you can sleep in it and has a bunch of room for storing gear.

Fuel mileage will suck FYI

óóóó

Another option would be the Lexus GX460
Holds value like crazy and can tow.


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« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 07:27:34 AM by the_fixer »

Jon Bon

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2020, 07:27:13 AM »
It looks like the consensus is to get something with the best gas mileage that will haul 5,000 pounds, which seems to be on the lower end for hauling, so I should have plenty of options.

Yes, I have been reading the blog since March 2014. He offers one suggestion on how to buy a work truck. His overall advice for trucks is to not purchase them because they are stupid and serve no utility. However, I would be buying the vehicle for utility.

I do not work a traditional 9-5 office job. I teach community college. I work 32 weeks/year and have 20 weeks off. During the semester, I do not teach on Fridays, so when I am working, I always have a 3-day weekend. 

I think I would average around 10-15 days/year for snowmobiling and 40-50 days/year on the boat.

You can rent snowmobiles, but not all places offer unguided tours. The cost for two snowmobiles would be $525 for a 4.5 hours. To rent a pontoon boat is $350/day. However, you cannot water ski behind a pontoon.

Ding Ding Ding!!

Lots of vehicles can town ~5k pounds. But apparently your are only suppose to use 80% of that? Not sure all the laws and best practices. Buying a truck would be fine, so would nearly any SUV. (not cuv)

I think the truck hate on this site and many others is well deserved. All the suburban dads that want to cosplay construction workers so they can pick up 3 bags of mulch in their 100k crew cab truck. I dont think this is the case at all. Hell I need a truck more then 90% of guys but my minivan is just better at what I do then a truck would be.

However using a truck to do truck things is kind of the point. If he is being efficient with his truck I dont see any problem with it even in the MMM universe. I say pursue efficient happiness.  If the truck is going to make life better I dont see what not.


FiveSigmas

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2020, 09:32:42 AM »
So disagreeing is fine, but agreeing is not? Jk ;)

Edit: Point taken. :-) My use of the English language was, er... not so good. Fixed.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 10:15:48 AM by FiveSigmas »

WSUCoug1994

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2020, 09:39:31 AM »
This is likely the wrong forum to seek this advice.  I am a truck/boat owner for most of my adult life.  You don't need a diesel.  You would likely need 4WD for snow.  Most mid-sized, non-US 6 cylinder trucks will tow 5000 lbs and can be found cheaply (although trucks tend to hold their value).  They get "decent" gas mileage for a truck - they are smaller and easier to maneuver and are cheaper than your US made v-8 counterparts usually with higher reliability.   You can keep it cheaper with standard cab, short bed, etc.

therethere

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2020, 09:46:37 AM »
I thought the rule of thumb was to only tow ~1/2 of the tow rating. Pretty conservative, but I wouldn't go above 2/3rds the rating in Colorado. Mainly, because of braking, not towing, Please do not plan on towing 5000 lbs with a 5000lb tow rating. Especially if you are traversing any mountains and need to stop on the way down.

Paper Chaser

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2020, 10:41:59 AM »
Mainly, because of braking, not towing, Please do not plan on towing 5000 lbs with a 5000lb tow rating. Especially if you are traversing any mountains and need to stop on the way down.

This, plus the altitude's impact on engine power and cooling systems need to be considered. Power is only a portion of the tow rating equation. Wheelbase, brakes, and cooling system all impact it as well. Towing up and down snowy mountains in thin air is going to be taxing on all the primary systems of a vehicle. I'm not saying you need a $75k diesel capable of towing 30k lbs to tow 4-6klbs, but forced induction and a tow rating of ~10k is going to be a lot less "on edge" in that environment than a naturally aspirated engine, and/or a vehicle with a 5k limit.

One might say that it's not sensible to have a vehicle with a bunch of unused capacity for just a few trips per year.

One could also say that a novice tower probably shouldn't be operating a vehicle in snowy, mountainous conditions while it's at the limit of it's capacity. There's enough for the new guy to monitor without having to worry if his tow rig is going to make it up the next hill without overheating or if he's going to be able to properly control the trailer and stop on the way down.

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2020, 11:35:30 AM »
However using a truck to do truck things is kind of the point. If he is being efficient with his truck I dont see any problem with it even in the MMM universe. I say pursue efficient happiness.  If the truck is going to make life better I dont see what not.

From my point of view, I don't see a "problem" with it. But I do subscribe to the idea mentioned above that if you are going to be driving a big truck full of gas to tow snowmobiles and boats full of gas to drive around nature for kicks, then you really aren't following baseline MMM principles. Not that I'm passing a value judgment on the practice itself. MMM is kind of a tongue-in-cheek religion, and like any religion could be taken to silly extremes. Using a truck to haul materials is one thing, but using it to frequently bus around recreational equipment is, for lack of a better phrase, going to get you a facepunch!

This reminded me of an even that happened to me years ago. I was with friends on a deck boat just motoring around Lake Powell and one of the ladies that was with us was really railing about how plastic bags should be more expensive (it was right when Cali started charging for them) and you are inconsiderate of the environment if you don't use reusable ones. I couldn't quite convince her that driving 7 hours in her Chevy Tahoe to sit and drink on a 400hp boat just cruising around for 2 days was indeed worse, and that you can't just buy your way out of So Cal consumption. It was quite a funny conversation, but was one of the first times I realized how much folks take vehicles for granted.

Jon Bon

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2020, 11:55:19 AM »
Guys he is 8 mins to the lake. Eight!

So recreation is now allowed if it involves an internal combustion engine? It sounds like he is looking to enjoy his local area in about the most efficient way possible. I also think any truck/suv would work for this. 8 min drive is going to be pretty low stress on a vehicle. So probably 80% of tow rating would be just fine.


The best option is likely some sort of boat storage that is available to launch for you. We dealt with trailing a boat for years and it generally sucks! I have family who keeps his boat in covered "stack" so literally a forklift grabs your boat from a warehouse shelf and drops it into the water. It is about the best set up for recreational boating I have seen. Likely not available or he would have mentioned it.

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2020, 12:43:44 PM »
Guys he is 8 mins to the lake. Eight!

So recreation is now allowed if it involves an internal combustion engine? It sounds like he is looking to enjoy his local area in about the most efficient way possible. I also think any truck/suv would work for this. 8 min drive is going to be pretty low stress on a vehicle. So probably 80% of tow rating would be just fine.

No one is saying it's not allowed! They're just saying it's not MustachianⓇ. If we didn't mention it, this would just be another general Financial Independence forum. I genuinely don't hold judgement if OP gets a truck. I'm not going to say he has to get a canoe trailer that he can tow behind his single speed. But it's worth bringing up, if not to jog the imaginations of other readers. For ideas that seem silly on the onset may not be so in real life...

clarkfan1979

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2020, 03:17:14 PM »
I just did google maps. The boat launch is 6.9 miles (12 minutes) from my house.

I guess I should have changed to title to "Efficient Way to Haul Toys"

the_fixer

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2020, 03:53:39 PM »
I just did google maps. The boat launch is 6.9 miles (12 minutes) from my house.

I guess I should have changed to title to "Efficient Way to Haul Toys"
Channels MMM for an appropriate MMM answer.

Hook that trailer to your single speed fixie bike and peddle your damn bike the 6.9 miles with trailer in tow

:)

Kidding of course


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Optimiser

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2020, 04:17:59 PM »
Guys he is 8 mins to the lake. Eight!

So recreation is now allowed if it involves an internal combustion engine? It sounds like he is looking to enjoy his local area in about the most efficient way possible. I also think any truck/suv would work for this. 8 min drive is going to be pretty low stress on a vehicle. So probably 80% of tow rating would be just fine.


The best option is likely some sort of boat storage that is available to launch for you. We dealt with trailing a boat for years and it generally sucks! I have family who keeps his boat in covered "stack" so literally a forklift grabs your boat from a warehouse shelf and drops it into the water. It is about the best set up for recreational boating I have seen. Likely not available or he would have mentioned it.

You might benefit from (re)reading Why Should I be Frugal, When Iím So Rich?

There are certainly more efficient ways to enjoy one's local area. Trying to buy a MMM approvedô truck so you can tow some other internal combustion engines around is actually pretty antithetical to what Pete talks about, even if you can afford it.

From the post I linked above:

Quote from: MMM
Therein lies the whole reason this blog is useful to anyone. If I were telling you to spend less money just so you could get out of debt, save up a fortune, and then eventually spend loads of money (which I recall is a paraphrase of the Dave Ramsey slogan), the advice would be useless. Because that would imply that the lower-spending portion of your life is less good than the subsequent high-spending part. What if you never get to the high-spending part? What if you fail or die first? It would have all been a waste. Better to just keep spending all your money now, to get the most out of life.

While this has become the accepted wisdom of contemporary society, you and I are fortunate to have discovered at such a young age that it is all bullshit.

...

Paul Allenís 414-foot Octopus yacht has engines totaling 19,000 horsepower, which burn about 622 gallons of diesel fuel per hour at cruising speed. Itís currently off the coast of Australia, a journey which took about $780,000 of fuel to make. This is an inefficient way to have fun. A man skilled at having fun should be able to achieve equal bliss within walking distance of his own house.

...

And so Iíd like to issue a challenge that you consider deflating, rather than inflating your own lifestyle as you get richer. The desire for luxury, while very real and occasionally pleasant to satisfy, is actually a weakness that stands in the way of a happier life. Getting off of the path that society has beaten for you will lead to much better adventures. So Iíd rather work towards strength as I get older, rather than striving for weakness.

After all,  which would you rather be, the man who requires 622 gallons per hour of diesel and a crew of 60 to have fun, or the one who can do it just by stepping out his front door?

If you have a lake so close, why not buy a stand up paddle board or kayak that you can tow with your bike? This would save you thousands of dollars, and let you get some fitness and some recreation at the same time.

Paper Chaser

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2020, 05:57:48 PM »

If you have a lake so close, why not buy a stand up paddle board or kayak that you can tow with your bike? This would save you thousands of dollars, and let you get some fitness and some recreation at the same time.

That might work if we ignore the desire to also do winter activities, or the possibility of a young family being involved in any of these activities (OP is holding a baby in their profile pic). You're not getting a young kid/kids to bike several miles to the lake while pulling their boat, then paddle board all day, then tow it back home. That doesn't even include food/drinks for the trip, etc. And you certainly aren't biking 60 miles or more into the mountains to play in the snow. I believe OP lives in Colorado (just like MMM himself). What's the point of living there if you can't enjoy some recreation in the mountains?

Of course If OP wants to have it all, there's no way to truly do it in a Mustachian way. It's only trying to minimize costs rather than eliminate them at that point. My wishful thinking suggestion would be to make friends with somebody that already has snowmobiles and/or a place in the mountains. In the summer, your friend comes to your place and you do stuff on the water. In the winter, you go to the friend's place with their toys. Split costs where you can.

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2020, 06:24:32 PM »

That might work if we ignore the desire to also do winter activities, or the possibility of a young family being involved in any of these activities (OP is holding a baby in their profile pic). You're not getting a young kid/kids to bike several miles to the lake while pulling their boat, then paddle board all day, then tow it back home. That doesn't even include food/drinks for the trip, etc. And you certainly aren't biking 60 miles or more into the mountains to play in the snow. I believe OP lives in Colorado (just like MMM himself). What's the point of living there if you can't enjoy some recreation in the mountains?

There are tons of winter activities to do that don't involve driving things! That's the whole point we're trying to make! I grew up on the Colorado front range and never ONCE went snowmobiling and I don't feel like my childhood was lacking in any way. In fact it was pretty dang awesome. We built snow caves (that we camped in- how bad ass is that?). We went cross country skiing, hiking, and back country sledding. I learned sweet skills and have lots of fun memories because of it. It's absurd to think that "winter sports" means loading snowmobiles and enjoying the mountain means you need 4wd and lots of toys.

Again, I'm not judging individuals like OP for doing so. Everyone comes from a different viewpoint in life. I'm sure we'd have a grand time on snowmobiles if given the chance. But I am judging people who justify buying trucks by saying it's somehow necessary or adds meaning to life.

As a thought experiment, pretend that gas is $10/gallon. Then how would you have fun?

Edit: We also had a lake nearby as kids. Young kids can be put in a trailer to get down there. Then you can muck around picking up rocks and finding crawdads. We used to catch grass hoppers in the fields and then walk around and sell them to the folks fishing out there. In the winter we'd get big sticks and break the ice along the shore, or throw rocks and listen to the echo of the ice. Once we got old enough, our parents let us wander down on our own, letting our leash out so to speak. We didn't even have a canoe; that was a luxury I had to borrow once I got to high school once I was able to.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 06:33:35 PM by StashingAway »

Paper Chaser

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2020, 06:43:27 PM »

That might work if we ignore the desire to also do winter activities, or the possibility of a young family being involved in any of these activities (OP is holding a baby in their profile pic). You're not getting a young kid/kids to bike several miles to the lake while pulling their boat, then paddle board all day, then tow it back home. That doesn't even include food/drinks for the trip, etc. And you certainly aren't biking 60 miles or more into the mountains to play in the snow. I believe OP lives in Colorado (just like MMM himself). What's the point of living there if you can't enjoy some recreation in the mountains?

There are tons of winter activities to do that don't involve driving things! That's the whole point we're trying to make! I grew up on the Colorado front range and never ONCE went snowmobiling and I don't feel like my childhood was lacking in any way. In fact it was pretty dang awesome. We built snow caves (that we camped in- how bad ass is that?). We went cross country skiing, hiking, and back country sledding. I learned sweet skills and have lots of fun memories because of it. It's absurd to think that "winter sports" means loading snowmobiles and enjoying the mountain means you need 4wd and lots of toys.

Again, I'm not judging individuals like OP for doing so. Everyone comes from a different viewpoint in life. I'm sure we'd have a grand time on snowmobiles if given the chance. But I am judging people who justify buying trucks by saying it's somehow necessary or adds meaning to life.

As a thought experiment, pretend that gas is $10/gallon. Then how would you have fun?

Edit: We also had a lake nearby as kids. Young kids can be put in a trailer to get down there. Then you can muck around picking up rocks and finding crawdads. We used to catch grass hoppers in the fields and then walk around and sell them to the folks fishing out there. In the winter we'd get big sticks and break the ice along the shore, or throw rocks and listen to the echo of the ice. Once we got old enough, our parents let us wander down on our own, letting our leash out so to speak. We didn't even have a canoe; that was a luxury I had to borrow once I got to high school once I was able to.

I grew up in the flat Midwest and did all of the same activities you did (snow forts/igloos are awesome, and the massive piles in shopping center parking lots don't usually melt away until well into spring, so you can hang out in tee shirts if you want!). If a redneck in the Midwest can do the same things as a kid in Colorado, it sounds to me like you missed out on the mountains. And Colorado without the mountains is taking the nose off the Mona Lisa.

I'm not trying to argue that having a truck and a bunch of toys is Mustachian at all, but it kind of comes with the territory if you live where OP lives and want to really take advantage of the natural landscape. Tons of valued members here have non-Mustachian hobbies or expenses. Toy cars, boats, fancy homes, a mess of kids, etc. OP's only mistake was citing 'MMM' in the title.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 06:48:15 PM by Paper Chaser »

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2020, 06:50:06 PM »
I grew up in the flat Midwest and did all of the same activities you did (snow forts/igloos are awesome, and the massive piles in shopping center parking lots stay there until well into spring, so you can hang out in tee shirts if you want!). If a redneck in the Midwest can do the same things as a kid in Colorado, it sounds to me like you missed out on the mountains. And Colorado without the mountains is taking the nose off the Mona Lisa.

Lol! holy moly you are a mean person online. I did all of those things in the mountains, my friend. And it was objectively awesome. And it sounds like you had a great childhood too. What on earth are you trying to prove?

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2020, 06:56:48 PM »
I'm not trying to argue that having a truck and a bunch of toys is Mustachian at all, but it kind of comes with the territory if you live where OP lives and want to really take advantage of the natural landscape. Tons of valued members here have non-Mustachian hobbies or expenses. Toy cars, boats, fancy homes, a mess of kids, etc. OP's only mistake was citing 'MMM' in the title.

But you somehow are frustrated when people bring MMM ideas into the MMM forum. No one's even forcing anyone's hand here! And I always clarified that I wasn't passing judgement on anyone who didn't subscribe to extreme life changes. We're just here to shoot the sh*t and toss around ideas on how to have an awesome life without being sucked in by the rat race and keeping up with the Jones'. What is the point of the forum if we cannot bring up the core ideas that the forum is based on?

GreenEggs

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2020, 07:27:10 PM »
The problem is the 6.9 miles.  You should move to the lake.  Then you won't need the truck for pulling the boat.  Your family will love living on the lake & it's a good investment. 




(Let's just forget the snowmobiles.  They just complicate things.)

Paper Chaser

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2020, 07:53:00 PM »
I grew up in the flat Midwest and did all of the same activities you did (snow forts/igloos are awesome, and the massive piles in shopping center parking lots stay there until well into spring, so you can hang out in tee shirts if you want!). If a redneck in the Midwest can do the same things as a kid in Colorado, it sounds to me like you missed out on the mountains. And Colorado without the mountains is taking the nose off the Mona Lisa.

Lol! holy moly you are a mean person online. I did all of those things in the mountains, my friend. And it was objectively awesome. And it sounds like you had a great childhood too. What on earth are you trying to prove?

There are people here known for giving virtual face punches and Somehow I've offended you? That was truly not my intent. I didn't think anything I posted was mean spirited. I'm not frustrated at all about any of the discussion here. I really don't take any of this personally, and there's nothing malicious in my motivations. Can you clarify what you interpreted as being so mean so I may better understand?

I'm not trying to prove anything, just trying to answer the OPs question. I also don't think that I've suggested that you're wrong about what can be done, or what is Mustachian or not. I was just trying to be empathetic to the OP and what their situation might be. I think Mustachians in general are pretty great and creative at coming up with inexpensive ways to solve a problem. But they're still humans, and as such they tend to project their situations onto another without having all of the details. A single person living in a warm city is going to have different suggestions than a person with two young kids that lives in a colder climate. By that same token, suggesting that OP's situation is similar to your youth may or may not be accurate. It may be a possibility and it may not for various reasons. Let's let OP figure out which options might be the best fit since they know all of the pertinent details and we don't.

You can certainly do 'winter activities' any place that gets cold (our similar childhood experience show that), but you can only do Rocky Mountain things in select locations. If OP wants to spend money to enjoy the select natural beauty in their specific location, I don't see how that's any different from the tons of other Mustachians who enjoy boating, or expensive travel, or paying more for higher quality food, or expensive video gaming systems, or living in a HCOL location to be closer to more cultural events. Everybody has their 'thing' that they splurge on. For some reason, anytime the 'thing' that is splurged on involves a car/truck/toy vehicle, it gets bashed around here while all of the other wasteful aspects are just seen as a justifiable expense line item for hard working humans so they may enjoy the fruits of their labor:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/expensive-hobbies-118079/
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 08:12:57 PM by Paper Chaser »

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2020, 08:28:44 PM »

There are people here known for giving virtual face punches and Somehow I've offended you? That was truly not my intent. I didn't think anything I posted was mean spirited. I'm not frustrated at all about any of the discussion here. I really don't take any of this personally, and there's nothing malicious in my motivations. Can you clarify what you interpreted as being so mean so I may better understand?

Sure! The first line that that caught me off guard was that you said that it sounded to you that I missed out on the mountains. The reason that this was particularly frustrating is that I was explaining precisely the opposite. I hiked the continental divide multiple times. I backpacked a lot! I mountain biked and rock climbed and just generally explored. I fished for lake trout at 11,000 ft. I went for trail runs in the river canyons and ate lunch with friends at the base of Long's peak (lots of times, we did this regularly). Somehow because none of these things involved a power boat or a snowmobile means I might as well have grown up in Illinois? Snowmobiles are FUN. I'm not denying that. But I can still say that I genuinely think I had a better experience growing up in Colorado without them, the opportunity cost being all of the other fun activities that I was able to do.

It's not the disagreement that I'm concerned with. It's that somehow you perceive me to have a lack of empathy for OP, or people in OP's position. I would say that it's the opposite. I'm trying to help- offer alternatives that possibly aren't thought of. There's a reasonable possibility that the things that I'm saying will make their life better! Like you said, it's up to OP to decide what's best for their situation.

I have had similar things happen to me on this forum. I was posting in the DIY about how to fix a noisy dryer vent situation and was "facepunched" to remind me that I don't have to even use a drier. There are alternatives. It turned out to be the best advice I got even though it wasn't what I was looking for.

Maybe I interpreted your meaning all wrong. It's been known to happen once or twice on the internet ;)

washingtonteach

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2020, 08:57:46 PM »
Used Toyota Tundra. They last forever, keep their value, and can tow a little over 10,000 pounds.

Paper Chaser

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2020, 09:35:39 AM »

There are people here known for giving virtual face punches and Somehow I've offended you? That was truly not my intent. I didn't think anything I posted was mean spirited. I'm not frustrated at all about any of the discussion here. I really don't take any of this personally, and there's nothing malicious in my motivations. Can you clarify what you interpreted as being so mean so I may better understand?

Sure! The first line that that caught me off guard was that you said that it sounded to you that I missed out on the mountains. The reason that this was particularly frustrating is that I was explaining precisely the opposite. I hiked the continental divide multiple times. I backpacked a lot! I mountain biked and rock climbed and just generally explored. I fished for lake trout at 11,000 ft. I went for trail runs in the river canyons and ate lunch with friends at the base of Long's peak (lots of times, we did this regularly). Somehow because none of these things involved a power boat or a snowmobile means I might as well have grown up in Illinois? Snowmobiles are FUN. I'm not denying that. But I can still say that I genuinely think I had a better experience growing up in Colorado without them, the opportunity cost being all of the other fun activities that I was able to do.

It's not the disagreement that I'm concerned with. It's that somehow you perceive me to have a lack of empathy for OP, or people in OP's position. I would say that it's the opposite. I'm trying to help- offer alternatives that possibly aren't thought of. There's a reasonable possibility that the things that I'm saying will make their life better! Like you said, it's up to OP to decide what's best for their situation.

I have had similar things happen to me on this forum. I was posting in the DIY about how to fix a noisy dryer vent situation and was "facepunched" to remind me that I don't have to even use a drier. There are alternatives. It turned out to be the best advice I got even though it wasn't what I was looking for.

Maybe I interpreted your meaning all wrong. It's been known to happen once or twice on the internet ;)

Thanks for the response! I think there's just some good old fashioned internet miscommunication/misinterpretation going on. Sorry for the lack of nuance. In your original post that quoted mine, you mentioned snow forts, cross country skiing, hiking, and sledding. My point was that you don't need to go to the mountains to do those things, you just need snow. You grew up in the mountains so you could do those things "right there", but OP is talking about driving a couple of hours to the mountains to take advantage of something that's pretty unique to their area. He presumably has places much closer than that where he could do the things you mentioned.

I'm sure that OP knows that there are cheaper ways to enjoy the outdoors than boats, snow mobiles and trucks to drag them around. Even non-Mustachians know that toys like that are expensive. Like I said, there are tons of avenues where we all spend money in sub-optimal ways strictly for our enjoyment. Most of them get a pass here, but for some reason anytime a truck is mentioned, people flip their lids. We need to either accept that liking different things and prioritizing financial matters in different ways is ok, or we need to start calling out and "face punching" all the people that spend money on anything frivolous.

clarkfan1979

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2020, 01:19:09 PM »
Thank you everyone for the contributions. I have plenty of information to start my search.

I do understand the environmental impact argument. It's a good one. For me personally, I try to make decisions based on what I think I would enjoy the most and then the second step is to think of ways to minimize environmental impact.

I already do most of the things that were suggested and I do enjoy them. I fish from shore and occasionally use a kayak. I usually rent a snowmobile and a boat at least once a year.  I have had a ski pass for the last 20 years.

I think the extremely negative attitude towards trucks on MMM is somewhat justified based on the assumption that they are incredibly expensive (60K+), serve very little utility for the owner (kids and groceries), are usually purchased with loans (new car payment), which then also increases the insurance payments (collision). I would consider my example to be different because I'm willing to buy something 10+ years old, I'm going to use it to haul a boat/toys, I'm going to have the money to pay for the items with cash and also self-insure. The downside doesn't seem to be that bad. If I buy everything for 50K and hate it, I could sell it for 25K to 30K a few years later.


simonsez

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2020, 02:26:41 PM »
As a thought experiment, pretend that gas is $10/gallon. Then how would you have fun?
Anecdata:  I would still go boating at $10/gal but I had to do some napkin math first (meaning it's close to the limit).  Maybe we wouldn't cruise around as much and weigh anchor to swim sooner but it would require extreme constraints to prevent me from boating whenever we go to the lake at our family property.  And it's not like there aren't dozens of other activities to do, just that is a luxury highlight I look forward to each trip.  I guess if the cost to go boating was so extreme that I could no longer keep squirreling away money in the manner I desire I would have no problem changing how we spend the 10 times or so per year that we go to the lake.  But if the additional cost of gas going to/fro the lake + boat gas is only on the order of magnitude of 1-2 day's worth of wages, I'd rather cut out fat somewhere else.

It's our escape and is in lieu of a good deal of travel.  It's been very key during this year.  Being able to still have family time and friend trips and all the annual trips when most of other more normal social options have been limited or altogether shut down has reaffirmed FIRE/life plans in many areas.  Putzing around, cleaning the boat, learning about maintenance, general satisfaction with taking care of something are things I value highly.  I hope to be a good steward and host for many years and eventually pass the property/knowledge on to a loved one.

Do I claim that going boating is frugal or required for someone to enjoy life?  Hell no!  But if you are going down that road it doesn't mean you need a 50k boat and a 50k truck with a 5k trailer to do it.  Lots of ways to not spend as much money to still enjoy the luxury that is boating.

I look forward to the day when all of our personal vehicles (both everyday cars and trucks as well as recreational ones like boats and ATVs, etc.) are electric and are fueled with renewables when plugged in.  More and progress each year (record sales of electric vehicles + renewables generated 17.5% of all U.S. electricity in 2019).  It would be nice if the $10/gal in 2020 dollars remains a thought exercise and not a reality!

use2betrix

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2020, 04:47:28 PM »
Used Toyota Tundra. They last forever, keep their value, and can tow a little over 10,000 pounds.

I would suggest this or a Toyota Tacoma with the tow package would be plenty sufficient, both in reliability and for towing these Louis on relatively shorter trips.

Personally, I drive a 2020 F250 Tremor with the 6.7 diesel and 1050 ft-lbs torque, to tow my 4500 lb trailer. So... Iím not one to give advice by experience. However, my 2017 4Runner that was rated at 5000 lbs also towed the trailer fine and we towed it several thousand miles without issue.

Iíd suggest looking at a 5th gen 4Runner as well if your load is within its capacity. They are one of the few Toyotaís still built in Japan and one of the most reliable vehicles made.

waltworks

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2020, 04:56:48 PM »
Semi-hijack - what do people like about powerboating? I've been out on other people's boats and you... mostly sit around and drink beer. I can do that in many other contexts without owning a boat or burning $300 of gas for a day at the lake. Wakeboarding is kinda sorta neat but not neat enough, and while one person does it everyone else has to sit around and wait their turn. I guess the beer helps. You're either hot or freezing cold, and either drunk or bored or both, most of the time. I'm not counting the time to load and unload and trailer the damn boat, which is usually hours and hours (waiting in line to put in... delightful!)

WTF? People PAY for this?

I get SUP, I get kayaking, I get just going for a swim, I even get windsurfing/sailing/kiteboarding. Them newfangled foil boards look pretty rad.

All of those things cost a tiny fraction of what a powerboat does and are super fun to do and require no fuel to operate. If you were good with a foil kiteboard I think you'd potentially be close to as fast as a powerboat with decent wind.

They do require some effort and skill, which to me is attractive but maybe to most of 'Murica isn't?

Before you accuse me of being some sort of greenpeace hippie fun-hater - I greatly enjoy a number of fossil fuel powered (dirtbikes, shifter carts, road trips) recreation. I have many times in my life paid money to drive a vehicle around just because. But man, you'd have to pay me to spend the day out on your boat, even if you're bringing good beer.

I don't get powerboats!

-W
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 05:26:51 PM by waltworks »

Morning Glory

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2020, 05:08:29 PM »
Semi-hijack - what do people like about powerboating? I've been out on other people's boats and you... mostly sit around and drink beer. I can do that in many other contexts without owning a boat or burning $300 of gas for a day at the lake. Wakeboarding is kinda sorta neat but not neat enough, and while one person does it everyone else has to sit around and wait their turn. I guess the beer helps. You're either hot or freezing cold, and either drunk or bored or both, most of the time. I'm not counting the time to load and unload and trailer the damn boat, which is usually hours and hours (waiting in line to put in... delightful!)

WTF? People PAY for this?

I get SUP, I get kayaking, I get just going for a swim, I even get windsurfing/sailing/kiteboarding. Them newfangled foil boards look pretty rad.

All of those things cost a tiny fraction of what a powerboat does and are super fun to do and require no fuel to operate. If you were good with a foil kiteboard I think you'd potentially be close to as fast as a powerboat with decent wind.

They do require some effort and skill, which to me is attractive but maybe to most of 'Murica isn't?

I don't get powerboats!

-W

+1
All the times I have been on a boat have not been very fun. I sunburn easily and get a headache if I drink alcohol before dinner time. Going for a swim from the dock is just as fun as swimming from a boat. I suppose a boat would be worthwhile if you were a serious competitive fisherman?

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2020, 06:36:42 PM »
Semi-hijack - what do people like about powerboating? I've been out on other people's boats and you... mostly sit around and drink beer. I can do that in many other contexts without owning a boat or burning $300 of gas for a day at the lake. Wakeboarding is kinda sorta neat but not neat enough, and while one person does it everyone else has to sit around and wait their turn. I guess the beer helps. You're either hot or freezing cold, and either drunk or bored or both, most of the time. I'm not counting the time to load and unload and trailer the damn boat, which is usually hours and hours (waiting in line to put in... delightful!)

WTF? People PAY for this?

I'm in the same boat (ha!). I want to re-iterate: I'm not judging people who do like it. But as indicated by some of the responses on this thread, there are a lot of pre-conceived notions of what makes a recreational activity "worth it".

Somehow mountains can't be enjoyed unless you're driving through them on a vehicle of some kind. I have had the most amazing, magical, awe-inspiring experiences in the super quite back country on skis. It's humbling and incredible. It's just not the same on a snowmobile. I would actually pay *more* to x-ski just because the hassle of the snowmobiles -loading on the trailer, maintenance, gassing them up, helmets/gear, pulling them out of a ditch etc. - is tedious to me. I can see the appeal; I've owned rock crawlers that were fun to play on. It's generally a really fun experience to drive a rig you built through a techy canyon. But at the end of that day I was always sitting around with a bunch of tub-bellied guys who spent all day sitting in a jeep who would be hurting good if they had to make it back home on foot. It wasn't really fulfilling. I guess the point is that those things are fun, but the opportunity cost is the other stuff that you could have done that would be more fun (to me). Sitting on a boat drinking with friends is cool compared to work, but not nearly as cool as the other stuff you listed (again, to me, no judgements for those who think differently)

Jon Bon

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2020, 06:23:35 AM »
Hang onto you hat's @waltworks

I don't get snow skiing.

It's cold as shit, always cold. Either blindingly bright or snowing and you can't see in front of you. I always get separated from my group, and can't find anyone. Normally you have to drive/fly to the middle of nowhere. It ends up just being exercise to me, and I can go for a run anywhere for much less. And full disclosure I have been to Park City, and yeah if I liked skiing it would be pretty awesome to literally ski into town for lunch.

But it's not really for me.

Yes power-boating in past 10 years has gotten rather nuts (emphasis on the power) I am going to sound like an old man but those wake boarding rigs SUCK.

They cost six figures, have the biggest V8 possible, the biggest sound system possible. These boats intentionally take on ballast so they can make an even bigger wake and get even worse fuel economy. This has the effect of basically ruining the lake for everyone else. I can't ski over your massive wake and I can't hear over your shitty music.

But back to Clark, Im pretty sure he is NOT doing this. Even if he was. Let him live. From the environmental side, tons of people here 'travel the world' no one really criticizes that. Which is probably about the worst thing you can do for the environment. Clark buying a reasonable old truck to do reasonable truck things is cool.

StashingAway

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2020, 06:42:38 AM »
But back to Clark, Im pretty sure he is NOT doing this. Even if he was. Let him live. From the environmental side, tons of people here 'travel the world' no one really criticizes that. Which is probably about the worst thing you can do for the environment. Clark buying a reasonable old truck to do reasonable truck things is cool.

So, here's the part that's peeving me off. We are letting him live. I said in every single g-dang post that I'm fine with him doing his thing. I tried to re-iterate it.

Let me re-iterate again. I'm not judging OP for his use of motorized vehicles or enjoyment of those activities.

And maybe again:

I do not hold it against anyone for wanting to snowmobile or boat around. I'm really not. There's no malice involved on his end and he's not doing anything irresponsible or dangerous to others. I can't complain about any of that, and I get that it's great fun for a lot of people.

This is why these discussions online are so frustrating. The whole point (from my end) of this is to try to expose the other great options. I genuinely believe that some people just haven't considered how much alternative fun potential is out there because it's easy to just kind of "go with the flow" in life and get caught in the rat race of life. Snowmobiling has a definite hit of adrenaline rush. Working on engines is meditative and a great hobby. I get it. Buying a reasonable utility truck (hell what do I care; buying a 2500 diesel with dualies) to try to make your life better makes sense.

I'm not saying anyone has to like skiing or kayaking or biking or anything like that. Many people find them uncomfortable or frustrating for various reasons. The idea is to try to sit down and really figure out what actually gets you meaning in life, perhaps to make unconventional decisions. Because conventional ones these days tend to get a person in debt and depressed. Try to figure out why boating is so fun. Most of the times it's because it's a social occasion to spend with loved ones. Occasionally it's an athletic endeavor with a drive to perfect a sport, or a recreational fisher disconnecting from the work week. But to figure out why it works for you is the key to being able to maximize your life.

Perhaps OP has already done this, and realized that the best avenue for spending quality time as a family or with friends is to make use of a reservoir 8 miles away, and the best way to get the group together is a deck boat. I don't know; I'm not in his head. I really don't actually care what the conclusion is; I'm just trying to prod the beast during the thought process.

It's a little too heavy of a thought to bring up for a general pickup recommendation. I concede that!


waltworks

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2020, 07:20:47 AM »
Hang onto you hat's @waltworks

I don't get snow skiing.

It's cold as shit, always cold. Either blindingly bright or snowing and you can't see in front of you. I always get separated from my group, and can't find anyone. Normally you have to drive/fly to the middle of nowhere. It ends up just being exercise to me, and I can go for a run anywhere for much less. And full disclosure I have been to Park City, and yeah if I liked skiing it would be pretty awesome to literally ski into town for lunch.

But it's not really for me.

I think you can like or dislike an activity, but my point was more about the overhead time to even DO it here.

For reference, I don't resort/downhill ski at all anymore, for that reason. Nordic skiing provides a better ratio.

You can go skiing (if you live somewhere vaguely near skiing) with a quick drive. Cost is at most $1500 for a season pass, and in most cases much less.

So let's say you go skiing for a half day (full day would do better, but let's say you just want to ski a few hours). You'll spend a couple hours in the car and a couple hours on the lift and get a couple hours of actually moving downhill on snow, for a ratio of overhead time to activity time around 2:1. I guess some people would count socializing/heckling from the lift as part of the activity, but not me. Depending on the exact circumstances, it could be a little better or a little worse, but you'll be in that ballpark.

If (this is my experience) you go boating for the day:
-30 minutes - 1 hour - getting trailer hooked up and boat out of storage/driveway.
-30 minutes - put gas in boat
-1-2 hours - drive to lake (same as skiing)
-30 minutes - 1 hour - get boat into lake and park truck. If crowded, add an hour of wait time.
-Sit in boat for 3-4 hours. If we're counting sitting in the boat as the activity, not bad. If only counting wakeboarding/waterskiing time, 10-20 minutes.
-30 minutes - 2 hours - wait in line to remove boat from lake/dump ballast/etc
-1-2 hours - drive back
-1 hour - park boat, boat maintenance (probably a low estimate)

I'd only count the wakeboarding time (just like I don't count time sitting on the ski lift) so the ratio is somewhere in the ballp'ark of 24:1 for overhead time/activity time. I wouldn't call that a wakeboarding/boating trip. I'd call it a boat-moving and fueling "adventure with a side activity of wakeboarding.

That's why I quit riding dirtbikes - all the trails near me closed (I had a kinda-sorta street legal 2-stroke back then so I'd just ride to the trail) and that meant multiple hours of trailering bikes to go ride. The bikes require a LOT of maintenance, too (f'ing KTM!) So the fun time/not fun time ratio got too low to be tolerable.

Jon Bon

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2020, 07:47:26 AM »
Hang onto you hat's @waltworks

I don't get snow skiing.

It's cold as shit, always cold. Either blindingly bright or snowing and you can't see in front of you. I always get separated from my group, and can't find anyone. Normally you have to drive/fly to the middle of nowhere. It ends up just being exercise to me, and I can go for a run anywhere for much less. And full disclosure I have been to Park City, and yeah if I liked skiing it would be pretty awesome to literally ski into town for lunch.

But it's not really for me.

I think you can like or dislike an activity, but my point was more about the overhead time to even DO it here.

For reference, I don't resort/downhill ski at all anymore, for that reason. Nordic skiing provides a better ratio.

You can go skiing (if you live somewhere vaguely near skiing) with a quick drive. Cost is at most $1500 for a season pass, and in most cases much less.

So let's say you go skiing for a half day (full day would do better, but let's say you just want to ski a few hours). You'll spend a couple hours in the car and a couple hours on the lift and get a couple hours of actually moving downhill on snow, for a ratio of overhead time to activity time around 2:1. I guess some people would count socializing/heckling from the lift as part of the activity, but not me. Depending on the exact circumstances, it could be a little better or a little worse, but you'll be in that ballpark.

If (this is my experience) you go boating for the day:
-30 minutes - 1 hour - getting trailer hooked up and boat out of storage/driveway.
-30 minutes - put gas in boat
-1-2 hours - drive to lake (same as skiing)
-30 minutes - 1 hour - get boat into lake and park truck. If crowded, add an hour of wait time.
-Sit in boat for 3-4 hours. If we're counting sitting in the boat as the activity, not bad. If only counting wakeboarding/waterskiing time, 10-20 minutes.
-30 minutes - 2 hours - wait in line to remove boat from lake/dump ballast/etc
-1-2 hours - drive back
-1 hour - park boat, boat maintenance (probably a low estimate)

I'd only count the wakeboarding time (just like I don't count time sitting on the ski lift) so the ratio is somewhere in the ballp'ark of 24:1 for overhead time/activity time. I wouldn't call that a wakeboarding/boating trip. I'd call it a boat-moving and fueling "adventure with a side activity of wakeboarding.

That's why I quit riding dirtbikes - all the trails near me closed (I had a kinda-sorta street legal 2-stroke back then so I'd just ride to the trail) and that meant multiple hours of trailering bikes to go ride. The bikes require a LOT of maintenance, too (f'ing KTM!) So the fun time/not fun time ratio got too low to be tolerable.

You forgot the part about the boat breaking and needing repairs....

Break
Out
Another
Thousand

That's why you don't buy a boat, you just make friends with people that do!

You are totally right trailering the boat sucks.




clarkfan1979

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Re: MMM type of truck to haul toys
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2020, 11:36:14 AM »
I thought the conversation was respectful with good points on both sides. Thank you to all who contributed.