MMM Commuting Standards - Do you think driving is ok?

[PeachFuzzStacher]

Hey Folks,
MMM seems to have a pretty strict standard about commuting and driving to work.  I personally live in an area where if you live within biking distance to where jobs are, you're paying an extra 5-10k+/year just on property values and taxes.  Is anyone else in feel like the "move closer to work" idea just doesn't apply to them?  Do you just compromise and have a mileage cutoff?  If I gave up car commuting, I would be cutting out 95% of job prospects.

[windawake]

Yeah, but based on his calculations you should be willing to pay an extra $15,000 per mile closer to work your house is. Even if the property taxes are higher it probably works out beneficially to live closer to work in terms of money. I certainly feel like my life is much more satisfying now that I no longer drive to work. There are non-monetary reasons to bike, like health and impact on the environment.

[seattlecyclone]

Yes, living close to work does often entail higher housing costs. I would encourage you to make sure you're looking at both sides of the equation, though. If you moved closer to work, could you sell a car? How much would that save you each year? Be sure to consider fuel cost, insurance, registration fees, maintenance cost, depreciation, and the expected return on your money if you sold the car and invested the cash into something with a better ROI than a car. Consider also your time. If you cut an hour a day out of your commute, would you be able to take on a side job to earn more money? Would you have more time to cook at home and feel the need to eat out less often? Would you feel generally happier with life?

Everyone's situation is different. In a lot of cases, driving to work makes sense. But one thing that MMM really tries to teach is that we Americans often underestimate the amount that we actually spend on our cars. Don't make that mistake when you're making your own life decisions.

[Gin1984]

My husband is going commute to his job (about an hour) so that I can continue with my PhD at my current university.  It would screw with his career if he said at this university and would add about 2 years to my PhD, assuming I could get in, if I moved PhD programs.  It sucks that it will cost $9000 before taxes (his whole raise), but it is for 3 years only.  I am ok with it.   

[nereo]

Hey Folks,
MMM seems to have a pretty strict standard about commuting and driving to work.  I personally live in an area where if you live within biking distance to where jobs are, you're paying an extra 5-10k+/year just on property values and taxes.  Is anyone else in feel like the "move closer to work" idea just doesn't apply to them?  Do you just compromise and have a mileage cutoff?  If I gave up car commuting, I would be cutting out 95% of job prospects.

It's definitely something that each person (or family) has to evaluate.  I think the broader point is that driving is waaaaay more expensive than more people realize.  Cars cost lots of money, commuting take time, and driving isn't particularly good for our bodies or the environment.

Many people are simply blind to the total costs of driving.

But of course there are times when car commuting is either necessary or hard to avoid.  For example, when I lived in rural Maine my "job site" changed every week and the distances were beyond my biking ability (frequently 25-50 miles each way).  Thankfully, I was compensated for milage and paid for my commuting time.  If I hadn't been compensated I most likely would have refused the job.
Rural areas are harder than urban ones, and jobs where you have to go to more than one location in a year are harder to "live near you work".

The average cost of commuting in the US is just north of 50¢ a mile.  So a 25 mile one-way commute can cost over $13,000/year per year.  And then add on top of that the loss of free time (well over 100 hours), the cost to the environment, and the toll it takes on your body and health (yet more sitting).

[Cromacster]

Well, if you are talking about the standards of THE MMM.  Then no, driving to work isn't ok.  Everyone on here is at there own position in life.  Some adhere to that, some don't.

If I would have been able to plan my location better, I would opt for the shorter commute.  Most days it doesn't bother me as I go in very early and leave early, but this doesn't mean I always avoid sitting in traffic.

I bought my house before I found MMM, and I bought it before I have the job I currently have.  So I wasn't thinking about any of this when I made that decision.  Thats not to say there aren't jobs closer to me in my field.....most of those happen to be medical device companies...bleh.  I am not in a hair on fire situation, which is one consideration.  Will it delay my FI date?  Probably, but as it stands I will hit it by the time I am 38-40, so thats not bad at all :).

[warfreak2]

Hey Folks,
MMM seems to have a pretty strict standard about commuting and driving to work.  I personally live in an area where if you live within biking distance to where jobs are, you're paying an extra 5-10k+/year just on property values and taxes.  Is anyone else in feel like the "move closer to work" idea just doesn't apply to them?  Do you just compromise and have a mileage cutoff?  If I gave up car commuting, I would be cutting out 95% of job prospects.

Only $5k-$10k/year and it means I don't have to drive a car? Where do I sign up?

(Just kidding, I am already signed up)

[Scandium]

Yes, living close to work does often entail higher housing costs. I would encourage you to make sure you're looking at both sides of the equation, though. If you moved closer to work, could you sell a car? How much would that save you each year? Be sure to consider fuel cost, insurance, registration fees, maintenance cost, depreciation, and the expected return on your money if you sold the car and invested the cash into something with a better ROI than a car. Consider also your time. If you cut an hour a day out of your commute, would you be able to take on a side job to earn more money? Would you have more time to cook at home and feel the need to eat out less often? Would you feel generally happier with life?

Everyone's situation is different. In a lot of cases, driving to work makes sense. But one thing that MMM really tries to teach is that we Americans often underestimate the amount that we actually spend on our cars. Don't make that mistake when you're making your own life decisions.

In my case it's actually the opposite. Our work is in a pretty bad area, outside Baltimore. Housing here would be pretty cheap, but for a good reason. And probably why my boss put our office here to save money.. I would not want to live here even if I don't mind the potential crime. The schools are bad if we have kids, and thus selling a house is harder etc.

So yes, I could have lived closer to work but instead I drive 20 mi each way. A total waste of money I know. Our next car will be more efficient so will cut my cost in half, but not until absolutely necessary.

Preempting potential arguments:
Yes I could change jobs, but I like this one and benefits are good (10% employer 401k contribution is hard to leave..)
Yes it's possible to bike 40 mi per day. If I want to spend an extra hour commuting I'll look into it..
Public transit is awful here, involving 3 trains and 2 buses or something. And take 2 hours.

[the fixer]

Exceptions to this rule that I have seen/can think of:
- people who don't have to commute every day, maybe only three days per week, can justify living further away because the cost per commuting mile is less.
- couples who both work and live together may not be able to both get jobs in the same area. For instance, my wife is in a field where all the work is in dense downtown areas, but my field is one where it's popular to set up shop in the burbs to get overhead costs lower. This has resulted in us having significant commutes in the past.
- Theoretically, if you live in an area where renting is extremely expensive compared to owning property, AND you change jobs frequently for good reasons, it might not be possible to always live within a few miles of your work unless you were to sell your house and move every couple years.
- Sometimes conflicts can be solved by moving to a totally different part of the country where you could live close to the jobs you want, but there may be some overriding reason, such as proximity to family, keeping you in a certain area.

[Rural]

It's a personal decision. I drive 35 miles each way on country roads and don't mind it (and don't spend $13k to do it; that's would be >50% of our annual household spending). But I would not drive 5-10 miles in city traffic (I've done this, so I know).

On the other hand, I'll probably retire sooner than I would if work were five miles away. I'm a college professor and like it, but I don't see myself making that commute at 70, whereas otherwise I might be the stereotypical elderly professor.

[Milspecstache]

I commute 30min each way to work.  It is not ideal and had I discovered MMM before I took the job/bought the house, I may have at least evaluated it better in that respect.  However, I did not want to raise my children in the city and wanted a farm.  Also wanted to build my own home.  Neither can be done next to my place of work.

That said, my job is forcing me to move across town where my commute will be much worse for the next 2 years...

I think the takeaway is to change our mindsets of 'drive everywhere without thought'.

[TrMama]

I'm currently making an exception because I've been too sick this month to bike the 8mi each way to work. If we lived closer I may have been able to bike half of the days I drove.

However, this is a temporary situation and I'm really hoping I'll be able to bike 2 or 3 days next week and ramp up from there.

I think the point MMM is trying to make is that you should make conscious, strategic decisions about both where you live and where you work. You need to find the sweet spot.

[NinetyFour]

Just a reminder, as a poster above said, the cost of commuting isn't just related to your car.  It's related to your physical and emotional health, and to the health of the planet.

[Cyrano]

I bike 13 miles each way during the parts of the year when the roads are free of snow and ice.

But after the first time I struggled to hold my line while going downhill through slushee with a truck doing 40 mph three feet to my left, I gave the winter $#!& up.

[engineerjourney]

Just a reminder, as a poster above said, the cost of commuting isn't just related to your car.  It's related to your physical and emotional health, and to the health of the planet.

Bolded part is I think the most underestimated cost of driving.  See my recent thread about road rage.  When I enter my car I pretty much change into a horrible person.  I am trying to figure it out and improve. 

It's a personal decision.

+1 Plenty of people that frequent these forums still drive, for a variety of reasons.  But they all do so by CHOICE, they are not forced to do so because 'thats what everyone does'.  There is a huge difference between blindly driving and evaluating your choices and choosing the one you find acceptable.  For me, that means no biking in the winter, I am too much of a pansy with the cold and am scared to death of the snow/ice drivers around here.  Come any semblance of spring (now please), I will be biking as much as possible. 

[MayDay]

In our situation, my H works off a 55 mph hilly curvy highway.  We only live about 2 miles from his office, but it just isn't safe to bike.  W knew he would have to drive, but chose to live close by so that it was faster, fewer miles, and less time.  It makes it easy for me to run him in to work if needed, which means we can have him driving a cheaper, older, less reliable car to lower costs. 

[Jamesqf]

Is anyone else in feel like the "move closer to work" idea just doesn't apply to them?

Yeah.  In my case, I moved work closer to me, by telecommuting.

I've always thought that the major flaw in the argument about moving closer to work is that to have what I'd consider any sort of decent life outside working hours, you'd be spending almost as much time driving from your close-to-work urban abode to more rural areas for recreation.  And of course you'd still need a car to do the driving.

[warfreak2]

We only live about 2 miles from his office

That's a half-hour walk, but maybe not all of the 2 miles is unbikeable? Could bike most of the way, lock the bike up, and walk the non-bike-safe remainder, perhaps. (Just a thought.)

you'd be spending almost as much time driving from your close-to-work urban abode to more rural areas for recreation.

That may be a major flaw in the argument for you, but it depends what you do for fun. For example, I lived in South London for a couple of years, and most of my recreation occurred closer to the centre.

[mcneally]

The average cost of commuting in the US is just north of 50¢ a mile.  So a 25 mile one-way commute can cost over $13,000/year per year.

I don't mean to encourage more driving, but it doesn't cost anywhere near 50 cents a mile to drive. In the same article where MMM shows calculations showing how much money this couple was wasting based on 50 cents per mile, he says that if you do things perfectly you might be able to get down to 17 cents per mile. The 50-some cent IRS figure also takes into account people who drive F-150s that they trade in every three years.

I even went un-mustachian and bought a brand new 2010 Elantra and I estimate that my cost per mile over the 8 years or so I intend to keep it will be ~29 cents per mile. If I take I take as a given that I will own a car (which I do, I know some won't), then my variable cost that would be used for decision making would be closer to the 17 cent figure.

Time, stress, and environmental impact are good reasons to avoid a commute too, just be honest about what the factors are (I don't mean to imply that the poster I'm quoting was being dishonest).

[phred]

Don't forget that MMM works at home.  He does use his van to buy building materials

AAA figures the cost per mile of small cars to be 35.4 cents, medium to be 45.5, and large to be 54.9 to 59.6.  If your costs are lower than this, you've overlooked some things.  Some believe the cost per mile will decrease once the car is fully depreciated.  However, repairs will increase.

[kolorado]

The average cost of commuting in the US is just north of 50¢ a mile.  So a 25 mile one-way commute can cost over $13,000/year per year.

I don't mean to encourage more driving, but it doesn't cost anywhere near 50 cents a mile to drive. In the same article where MMM shows calculations showing how much money this couple was wasting based on 50 cents per mile, he says that if you do things perfectly you might be able to get down to 17 cents per mile. The 50-some cent IRS figure also takes into account people who drive F-150s that they trade in every three years.

I even went un-mustachian and bought a brand new 2010 Elantra and I estimate that my cost per mile over the 8 years or so I intend to keep it will be ~29 cents per mile. If I take I take as a given that I will own a car (which I do, I know some won't), then my variable cost that would be used for decision making would be closer to the 17 cent figure.

Time, stress, and environmental impact are good reasons to avoid a commute too, just be honest about what the factors are (I don't mean to imply that the poster I'm quoting was being dishonest).

 We own a sports car for hubby's commute of 14 miles each way. Even with the cost of financing the sports car for two years, all maintenance(there has been none but oil changes and new tires on the 8 year old sports car but we have a maintenance budget just in case), gas at an increasing inflation rate, and insurance, we will probably only pay $.27 a mile for the life of the car(20 years or 200K miles approx). The only thing I think I've "missed" calculating is lost interest/opportunity on that money spent. Maybe AAA include that?
 Buying a known reliable model car/brand and being knowledgeable about purchasing value, not paying boatloads of interest, driving carefully, and treating your car nicely makes the entire prospect acceptable.
 We didn't want to live anywhere near hubby's work since he works at a factory on the seedy side of town. The houses cost a bit less but not enough to compensate for the noise, pollution, and crime.

[wtjbatman]

I currently live in a small city in Minnesota, and commute 30 miles into Wisconsin to work in a small town. I have a somewhat unique job with no prospect of finding this job with the same pay in the small city I live in. I also can't move, as I live with my gf who is very active in this community (the small city we live in), and who also works in this city, with no chance of her office job with equivalent pay becoming available in the small town if we moved there. I'm going to make an assumption here, but from what I've read a lot of people on these forums (certainly not everyone) lives and works in the same urban area. To them, biking to work (or this "public transportation" thing I've heard about) is actually a possibility.

Yes, I think driving is ok depending on your circumstances.

[Mortgage Free Mike]

Yes, driving is okay. You are in the driver's seat of your own life, not MMM.  I respect MMM. However, it's important not to compare your situation to his or anyone else's. That's why it's called PERSONAL finance.
I live in a big city with marginal public transportation. Driving is costly, but it enhances my life.

[PeachFuzzStacher]

Thanks for all of the replies, everyone.  It turns out that in my line of work (Software engineering), it's pretty prudent to move on to the next thing every 2-3 years if you like getting raises.  Having a car makes this variability of where I'll be working in 4 years much less of an issue.  Both my DW and I have 4-cyl compact cars fully paid off, and she's within 4 miles of her job, while I go 25 each way.  If all I cared about was how much/little I'd have to drive, I'd find something closer, but I am at a good place right now.  Maybe in a few years I'll just move again (just bought a house last year, before changing jobs)

[Jamesqf]

you'd be spending almost as much time driving from your close-to-work urban abode to more rural areas for recreation.

That may be a major flaw in the argument for you, but it depends what you do for fun. For example, I lived in South London for a couple of years, and most of my recreation occurred closer to the centre.

Sure, I did say what I'd consider a decent life.  Tastes vary :-)  You also need to consider that Britain (like much of Europe) has much better rail transit than most of the US.  When I lived near London (St. Albans), I could grab the bike, hop on a train, and be in Scotland or Ireland in a few hours.

AAA figures the cost per mile of small cars to be 35.4 cents, medium to be 45.5, and large to be 54.9 to 59.6.  If your costs are lower than this, you've overlooked some things.  Some believe the cost per mile will decrease once the car is fully depreciated.  However, repairs will increase.

Wrong, because AAA computes their figures on the assumptions that people buy new cars on credit, carry collision & comprehensive insurance, pay other people to do maintenance,m &c.  For those of us who tend to buy our vehicles fully depreciated, or nearly so, the numbers are far different.  And if we buy Hondas & Toyotas, repairs are seldom an issue.

I'm out at the extreme (Honda Insight), but figure $300/yr for registration & liability insurance, 5 cents/mile for gas, plus a couple of cents - heck, make it even 10 cents/mile for maintenance &c. 

[phred]

Have you included replacing the battery pack in your calculations?

[wtjbatman]

Have you included replacing the battery pack in your calculations?

Will he have to? Honda insures the battery 10 years and 150,000 miles, and that doesn't mean the battery pack is going to crap out at 150,001 miles either. It's a possibility, but so is your bike getting stolen or run over by a bus or stomped by an elephant participating in a parade.

[ender]

It's a personal decision. I drive 35 miles each way on country roads and don't mind it (and don't spend $13k to do it; that's would be >50% of our annual household spending). But I would not drive 5-10 miles in city traffic (I've done this, so I know).

I'm rather at the same place right now, I am at about 30 miles on mainly country/stress-free interstate and am ok with this, but have no interest in slight city traffic.

There is nearly no stress associated with my 30 mile commute other than the time factor.

[AlanStache]

Last month there was a thread here along the lies of "why dont you bike commute" and the basic answer a lot of people gave (myself included) was that in the US there are plenty of roads where riding a bike is just not safe.  If I were to move to near work I could very easily be one of those people that drives 3 miles (I work with a few too).  Walking, biking or public transit are always possible but can be far from good solutions.  And the idea that I should change jobs just so that I could ride to work and then get a house near there seems like a shit-ton of effort and expense when I could just drive 3 miles.

But to the larger question of driving at all, could we not ask this about any thing modern that costs money?  Hot showers?  Sheets and blankets?  As long as one is aware of the costs, monetary and otherwise, it comes down to personal choice.  I would love to live a car free life now and hope to one day, I just see the costs involved in setting that up now as being far to high.  Hope I just dont always keep saying someday-someday on that :-(

[Jamesqf]

Have you included replacing the battery pack in your calculations?

Yes & no.  I did pick up a spare pack from a salvage yard several years ago: $300 IIRC.  Mostly just to play with, and to use for the week-long rebalancing procedure I do every couple of years.  Other than that... Well, it's a 2000 model, 175K miles, and still running fine.  Did have to replace a wheel bearing a few months ago - about $60 - and a couple of similar things over the years.

[loki]

As others have noted, forget the peer pressure--whether from the outside world or from folks here---and do what works for you. Depending on my stage of life, I've biked to work, driven <2 mile commutes, and driven 25 mile commutes. I currently drive a 12 mile commute daily and have no interest in ever cycling it. I'm hoping my next real job will either have a <2 mile or a <12 mile commute, but am willing to drive up to 45 minutes for it. We'll see.

[randymarsh]

The important thing to realize is what effect(s) driving has on your lifestyle and finances. Most Americans have decided that driving 30+ minutes one way to work every day is just how things are and don't look at any other options. They also buy huge cars with high operating costs to do said driving in which just compounds the financial impact.

Stage of life can play a role. I commute ~30 minutes to school 4 days a week and another 30 minutes to work 3 days a week. My cost of driving is either equal to or less than what it would cost me to live next to campus. I'd still need a car for my internship. IMO, if you're offered a good paying internship in college you take it even if it means a commute.