Mid-way to FIRE: Change jobs, get an MBA, or semi-retire? [Engineer rant inside]

[NathanDrake]

BIO:

I graduated with an engineering degree roughly 6 years ago and have been aggressively investing around 65% of my income over that period. That, coupled with the bull market, has allowed me to amass roughly 400K, with annual expenses in the 15K per year range. At a 4% withdrawal rate, I've already accumulated enough (in theory), but I would not be comfortable retiring on this amount since I expect my expenses to go up with time, and I am well below the normal early retirement age. I'm currently single and don't have any plans for marriage or children, but that may change.

CURRENT JOB:

- I work for a large F500 company in a huge division where I feel like a cog in a very large machine.

- The work was interesting at first, but as I gained mastery of my job and moved on to supervising others and overseeing projects, it's become repetitive to the point of being a tedious grind and I'm completely disinterested at this point. It's hard to stay motivated when you're in a cubicle farm staring at a computer screen ad nauseam for 9+ hours a day.

- I've received a number of promotions, but none of them have substantially raised my salary. Annual raises are just barely above inflation, even for top performance. As a result, I feel like there's very little to gain by trying to strive away up the corporate ladder. I do more to increase my future earnings by saving aggressively than I ever could by eking out marginally higher raises.

- I'm not particularly passionate or interested in the industry I'm in. I graduated during a pretty bad period for employment, and while I fielded multiple offers, I don't think any of them were an ideal fit.

- I detest the location. It's out in the middle of nowhere and requires a 2 hour daily commute that is killer on my vehicle, gas bill, and sanity.

- Engineering has served me well, but at the same time I look at some of my friends that didn't put up with nearly as much work in college and enjoy much more social careers with far better advancements in pay. This point in particular frustrates me to no end. They pay well right out of school, but you top out almost immediately. I don't feel like I have a "career", but a "job".

Do I switch Jobs?

- Perhaps a more ideal location with far less commute, a change of scenery, an industry change, and an opportunity for more learning experiences would rejuvenate my interests and allow me to enjoy the 9-5 slog more than I currently do (on top of getting paid more to boot, more likely).

- Scanning job postings for engineering positions is a bit depressing. Everything is so specialized and requires specific industry experience, not to mention the jobs sound just as tedious and boring as the one I already have.

Do I get an MBA?

- I did extremely well in undergrad and have performed above my peers at my job. That being said I've never been in love with the technical side of engineering. I mostly received this degree because it paid better than the alternatives and I did very well in the courses. I never found anything in the coursework that struck me as a passion within the field.

- As I become older, my interest in higher level business decisions grows and I'm less interested in the minutiae of the nuts and bolts engineering work. This works in tandem with my interest in personal finance, where I enjoy analyzing areas of costs I can cut in order to increase my net worth and project what my net worth will be in the future based upon market returns and savings rates.

- My goal never was to retire early, necessarily. I just wanted to save enough in order to open up opportunities and hopefully settle in a career that I didn't dread going into work each morning for. I'd be able to attend a top MBA program without incurring any debt. That being said, the opportunity cost is high. Tuition and fees would be north of 100K (probably close to 150K if you include additional expenses that I normally wouldn't incur -- such as trips and networking events), and I can save approximately 50-60K per year on my current salary. In total I'd be losing out on roughly 250K, and maybe make back 20K or so during the summer internship. If I were to pursue management consulting or investment banking, my total compensation would be over double what it is now.

- The MBA would open up doors to different industries and get me another bite at the on-campus interview process. It would broaden my background and I'd feel less pigeon holed with the degree.

Do I semi-retire?

- This is another interesting option, I just don't know how to go about achieving it. It basically involves retiring from corporate life on a large nest egg, then finding part-time work at home and in my spare time to cover annual expenses and possibly stash away some savings each year (but not nearly as much as I would at my corporate job). This allows your nest egg to compound, reduces your stress from work, and frees up a massive amount of free time by not having to go to work 8-5 every week, work weekends, and commute 2 hours each day in my case.

[rmendpara]

First, you need to decide whether you want to semi-retire soon or work full time for the next 5-10 + years.

It's really two options at first:
1) Switch jobs/get MBA
2) Retire early and work as needed or to keep busy

If you can afford it, another consideration might be to get an MBA, work for 2-5 years and develop some marketable skills... and then retire early and you can work as a consultant on contracts every now and again to keep your skills updated, make a little money, and get excited about work. It's like doing internships, except you get paid a lot more, and you go into a "job" knowing that there's an exit in 3-6 months.

Then, travel, relax, explore some hobbies, explore your new city, etc. And when you come across an interesting work contract after a few months (or longer) you can go for it again. The only challenge here is that you may need to be nearer to a larger city to have enough potential contract work come to you, so your base living expenses will likely be higher than $15k/yr like it is now (which is awesome!).

I think any of these options works fine for you, especially since you have the financial freedom to further explore your interests.

Hope this presents another thought process for you.

[NathanDrake]

Agreed. My two immediate options are switching jobs or getting an MBA. The former would allow me to retire earlier, the latter would possibly lead to better employment options and maybe even a reconsideration of retiring early to begin with.

The part time consulting scenario you suggested sounds quite ideal, long-term. I just don't know how attainable that is. My current profession requires physical presence in the office and there's no part time consulting options available. Even if I suggested to my boss that I want reduced income/hours, I'd probably be let go because people here are expected to work a minimum 40 hours, and more than that depending on seniority.

[G-dog]

Does your company do tuition reimbursement? If so, they may help pay for your MBA. Watch out for an indentured servant clause (obligation to pay back if you leave the company within x years).
What about an lower level finance job - your engineering degree, I.e., facile with math and analysis may be sufficient. And, another gateway to get work to help pay for school.
If I were you, I would not quit my job and go back to school ( not at those costs anyway).

[NathanDrake]

Unfortunately my current company will only pay for a technical degree, with provisions that you have to stay with the company for two more years.

Switching jobs to find an employer that will may be advantageous, as I would consider the part time route in that scenario if everything aligned properly (new job location close to city, new job with flexible hours for school, etc). I think it's rare these days for a company to pay for an MBA, however.

[MarciaB]

I have a different take on what you might do next. My thinking is that you should quit your job. Now. Then give yourself 6 months or a year, and travel around to different parts of the country where you might want to live. Think about careers that might really engage you and talk to people who do those jobs. Visit some schools and talk to recruiters.

Basically, you have amassed a lot of wealth and can easily afford to take a breather. Because you're looking to make big decisions, give yourself the gift of time and space to think.

[NathanDrake]

I like the idea, and a break would be nice since I feel a bit burned out, but sounds a bit risky in terms of having a resume gap and appearing aimless for either job or business school applications.

[diesel15]

I know that you listed what you feel are your two best options already but since you are asking for advice I will throw out an alternative option that may be worth consideration.  I don't know you personally so I'm just going by what you have posted here.  I am a degreed mechanical engineer myself and I can relate to the drudgery that a traditional engineering job can become.  Have you ever considered going into sales?  There is quite a demand for engineers with a combination of technical and people skills and your experience working as an engineer gives you two potential advantages in making this switch.  First, you understand the industry in which you have been working very well and where the demand for certain products and services lie.  Also, you already have contacts in the industry that would prove very benificial down the road if you made this switch.  I can only speak for myslef but making the switch to sales for me completely rejuvinated my career.  You are able to be involved in multiple projects simultaneously and solving new and interesting problems.  The added benifit for me at least is that I can develop a solution from more of a conceptual standpoint but I don't have to be the one to do the tedious detailed engineering work required to turn it into a reality.  For me it's a great balance between using my degree and not getting bogged down in things I don't really enjoy.  Depending on the type of sales the compensation levels are also quite attractive and your earning power can increase rapidly without having to be a middle manager stuck in a bureaucratic nightmare.

[theonethatgotaway]

I have to agree with taking time off. IT sounds like you are burnt out and that won't do any good for your current or future pursuits. Take a few months and try your hand at a job completely different but interests you.

You don't need an MBA.

Edit:just read you are burnt out. The resume gap problem is a myth. You need to realize you will open doors by having that 'gap'.

[m^3mmm333]

Hey,

I work at an investment bank/in finance. Let me be perfectly clear, YOU SHOULD NOT GET AN MBA!!! I don't know what you want to do, but if you want something in that field (and maybe you don't) only an MBA from the top 5 or so schools will help you (that will set you back $100k, minimum). That said, I can tell you that the job isn't any more interesting than what you describe (and the hours are insane, but you will probably be paid more). Working in a large corporation requires that your job function must be "cog-like", so I wouldn't expect anything else. However, a lot of accounting/consulting firms will pay for their employees the get their employees but not without extracting a pound of flesh (multi-year employment commitment). I doubt that, if you're open minded/creative enough to read this blog that you will enjoy "business", at least in the large, corporate form any better than your current position.

At the end of the day it depends on EXACTLY what you want to do, but I doubt an MBA is going to help you.

[otherbarry]

- Engineering has served me well, but at the same time I look at some of my friends that didn't put up with nearly as much work in college and enjoy much more social careers with far better advancements in pay. This point in particular frustrates me to no end. They pay well right out of school, but you top out almost immediately. I don't feel like I have a "career", but a "job".

As an engineering student, I'm interested in what careers your friends entered?

...sales stuff....

That's pretty neat.

[Exflyboy]

I am a PE in Oregon and got both my Batchelors and an MBA from top Universities in the UK.

I can tell you categorically that the MBA has been absolutely worthless to me in getting a higher paid job.

Far more profitable is to change companies and ask for a higher salary. Often if you stay at one place more than say 2 years.. the new graduates will be brought in at a higher salary than you are!

I was a manager at an engineering company and I saw this happen all the time.. it was quite blatant.

Frank

[tyler1215]

I feel like I may be heading down the same path as the OP.  Some of the technical aspects of engineering are starting to become tedious and not worth my time, especially since I'm the only person actually doing the engineering work (I'm one of three engineers). 

I push for early retirement but I also fear that I would become bored with being retired.  Right now, my plan is to stockpile my PTO as much as I can and then take a month long vacation to see if I like the retired lifestyle or if I'll miss the job I was doing.  To the OP, have you considered taking a long vacation to try to rejuvenate your work and spend more time thinking on your problems.  Best thing I did for my career was tell my manager I'm going on vacation for 2 weeks at midnight back in August 2013.  I went and hiked 75+ miles in Philmont, NM, and met other engineers that got bored and quit their jobs to pursue their interests.  In fact, I met one engineer that quit his job, started an internet trading software company then retired at age 40 with more money than he'll ever need.  But this engineer taught me that life is too short to go to a job that you don't enjoy.  When I returned from my vacation, I immediately left my job to find a new job and have not been happier due to the new challenges.  Also, studies have shown that moving jobs every 3-5 years, will increase your lifetime earnings potential by 50%.

NathanDrake, are you able to take an extended vacation or ask for a sabatical? If not, leave your job, you have the funds to survive and you can explain the gap by saying you decided to retire early and then got bored being retired.  I said that during my job interview and got a hilarious reaction and the job offer that changed my life.  Don't let your job and managers dictate your choices.  If they don't make the decision to make your life better, then show them you mean business and walk out the door.  I'll guarantee that you'll never look back.

[tyler1215]

I was a manager at an engineering company and I saw this happen all the time.. it was quite blatant.

Frank

Frank,

I'm curious about your take on that situation.  My current company is going through a new performance management system and claims that they will start paying everyone market value for their positions.  I have been reviewing the market value for my position and my research shows that my salary should be brought up at least 15% to be at market value.  Everyone I talk to says that a 15% raise is unheard of and HR would never let it happen.

A little background, I'm one of three engineers for an electric utility company.  The other two engineers are my boss and his boss, the CEO.  I have 3 years of experience and my current salary is the same level as the salary offer I had for one job when I first graduated. (I picked a lower paying job thinking I would have better opportunities, didn't work out that way unless you count the contact I made that landed me the job I have today.)

[Tyler]

Hi NathanDrake.  As a fellow engineer, I totally empathize with your situation.

In my experience, the MBA sounds alluring because you feel it will "open doors", but the closed door is really just a self-imposed illusion.  As an experienced engineer, you have plenty of skills already to get the type of job you want, even in business & finance if that's what you enjoy.  So forget the MBA.  It's just a very expensive distraction.

My first impression is that you simply need a change.  You're underpaid with a horrible commute at a large boring company doing tasks you don't really like.  Dude -- get a new job!  I can tell you right now that you are more marketable than you're giving yourself credit for.  And there are lots of jobs for engineers out there that are very different from what you've experienced.   Try a smaller company or an engineering consultancy where you'll have more independence.  If you like numbers rather than technical design, look into supply chain management.  If you want a more social position, try technical sales.  Don't limit yourself to jobs with "engineer" in the title, and sell your experience at a F500 company as a valuable asset.

What specific engineering field are you in?

[Goldielocks]

I was a manager at an engineering company and I saw this happen all the time.. it was quite blatant.

Frank

Frank,

I'm curious about your take on that situation.  My current company is going through a new performance management system and claims that they will start paying everyone market value for their positions.  I have been reviewing the market value for my position and my research shows that my salary should be brought up at least 15% to be at market value.  Everyone I talk to says that a 15% raise is unheard of and HR would never let it happen.

A little background, I'm one of three engineers for an electric utility company.  The other two engineers are my boss and his boss, the CEO.  I have 3 years of experience and my current salary is the same level as the salary offer I had for one job when I first graduated. (I picked a lower paying job thinking I would have better opportunities, didn't work out that way unless you count the contact I made that landed me the job I have today.)

I have been in engineering mgmt for quite a while.  It is not a raise you describe but a job reclassification.

Especially with a large employer.  What you need to do is ensure your job description or role reflects those higher skills, then, as they are already reviewing, you ensure HR and your boss get a copy of what you think your role is.  You could even look at the federal job classification for reference, and tell them directly that what you do is different than what you were hired to do originally.

Good luck

[Goldielocks]

Look for a new job.  That commute alone is killing you slowly. 

Either take time off, part time work close to home or something new and interesting.
What about an overseas work?  It can be way outside of your field for6 months, without impact, and you can bring in only $15k while you reconnect with what you really want.

Depending on your state, consider taking online courses in industrial engineering, it is the closest to business, often reports to CFO and looks for better ways to run the operations.  You don't need a full certificate, just enough to pass the exams and IIE offers good programs.

Try taking a MOOC.  These are a good gap filler in a resume.

I recommend only taking MBA if your CEO asks you to, or the coursework itself is a dream and of yours.  If the money then pays out, great but there are lots of boring MBA jobs too.  Note, you do not have to pay $100k, unless it is only to get work so I don't recommend it..  Find a nice $50k one and the learning is about the same, just not the diploma.

[goodlife]

Don't get an MBA, seriously. If you want to go to a top 5 school, you will probably end up spending 200k all in. To me, the only reason to get an MBA is if you know exactly what kind of job you want and you absolutely cannot get that job without an MBA. I think there are very very few people who this applies to and you don't sound like one of them. I once thought of getting an MBA because I wanted to do a different job in finance (think IBD, PE etc) and thought I couldn't get into that niche area without one. Lucky for me I applied for exactly those jobs before applying for an MBA...turns out I got that job within 3 months, no MBA needed.

[Exflyboy]

I was a manager at an engineering company and I saw this happen all the time.. it was quite blatant.

Frank

Frank,

I'm curious about your take on that situation.  My current company is going through a new performance management system and claims that they will start paying everyone market value for their positions.  I have been reviewing the market value for my position and my research shows that my salary should be brought up at least 15% to be at market value.  Everyone I talk to says that a 15% raise is unheard of and HR would never let it happen.

A little background, I'm one of three engineers for an electric utility company.  The other two engineers are my boss and his boss, the CEO.  I have 3 years of experience and my current salary is the same level as the salary offer I had for one job when I first graduated. (I picked a lower paying job thinking I would have better opportunities, didn't work out that way unless you count the contact I made that landed me the job I have today.)

Yes I would belive the 15% when I saw it!.

I have a few examples but basically I saw the salaries for new engineering graduates at $5k above the folks that had been there for between 3 and 4 years.

Needless to say somebody with 3 to 4 years of experience is FAR more valuable to the organisation than a raw graduate.

And then the company is amazed when these folks leave to find other jobs.. Naturally they get left with the relatively useless graduates!!

Thats why I say the best way to get a decent raise is to move unless your company has a better business sense.

Frank

[Emg03063]

Downshifted MechE here, 90% done w/ part time B-school.   Pretty much everything you might want to know from b-school can be found for free at quickmba.com.  I would not waste the time or tuition to pay someone else to teach you what you can teach yourself for free.  I second the suggestion to go work for a small company.  I just did.  It's refreshing.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/just-started-a-new-job-at-13-my-former-salary/

Congrats on the 'stache!  You're way ahead of where I was at your age.  I'm slightly jealous. :)

[DecD]

I'm an engineer (aerospace).  In my field, our managers don't have MBA's (though arguably it would help significantly), they are promoted from the engineering ranks as they rise to the top.  So before you make big expensive decisions, research what opportunities you'll have WITH the MBA that you won't have without it.  An acquaintance of mine has a masters in mechanical engineering, 10ish years experience in the fighter jet industry, and an MBA from a top-10 school and works for Google, presumably in a lucrative job, though I'm sure the MBA school debt is killer.

My husband has an MBA from a local school that his company paid for, and for him that was an excellent way to go.  He went on to get a PhD in business and is now a university professor.

I quit a great engineering job to go back for my PhD in engineering, and while it was the right choice for me I would NOT recommend it for anyone unless they have an excellent reason for doing it that makes it worth the cost in lost salary and benefits.  I didn't pay for the PhD, by my salary was cut by 75% and it was not a good decision from a purely *financial* perspective.

So if I were offering advice, I'd say do NOT go for the MBA unless you have well-researched, concrete goals for what you'll do with the degree.  Especially if you're paying for it- to justify that kind of expense (in tuition and lost income), you'd need a seriously good reason. 

If I were you I would NOT stay in your current job.  You've saved enough to have some freedom to explore, and your job is making you miserable.  I can't conceive of that kind of commute- it's preventing you from really living life.  There's a staggering array of different things you can do with an engineering degree (what sort of engineering do you do?), and I'd start looking into various options, both within the field of engineering and outside of it.  At the same time, get out of your miserable location and decide where to live deliberately.  (I think MMM has a post about this, doesn't he?  Or maybe it was another blog.)

If you really are interested in an MBA then find a company that will pay for it and go to work for them.

But get out of your miserable situation!  There's too much fun stuff out there to do to stay stuck in a dead end like that.

[mm1970]

Unfortunately my current company will only pay for a technical degree, with provisions that you have to stay with the company for two more years.

Switching jobs to find an employer that will may be advantageous, as I would consider the part time route in that scenario if everything aligned properly (new job location close to city, new job with flexible hours for school, etc). I think it's rare these days for a company to pay for an MBA, however.

My last company had tuition reimbursement with the 2 year rule.  And my engineering buddy got his MBA.  He went to UC Irvine which had a program that was weekends, intended for people who worked.

[mm1970]

I was a manager at an engineering company and I saw this happen all the time.. it was quite blatant.

Frank

Frank,

I'm curious about your take on that situation.  My current company is going through a new performance management system and claims that they will start paying everyone market value for their positions.  I have been reviewing the market value for my position and my research shows that my salary should be brought up at least 15% to be at market value.  Everyone I talk to says that a 15% raise is unheard of and HR would never let it happen.

A little background, I'm one of three engineers for an electric utility company.  The other two engineers are my boss and his boss, the CEO.  I have 3 years of experience and my current salary is the same level as the salary offer I had for one job when I first graduated. (I picked a lower paying job thinking I would have better opportunities, didn't work out that way unless you count the contact I made that landed me the job I have today.)

Yes I would belive the 15% when I saw it!.

I have a few examples but basically I saw the salaries for new engineering graduates at $5k above the folks that had been there for between 3 and 4 years.

Needless to say somebody with 3 to 4 years of experience is FAR more valuable to the organisation than a raw graduate.

And then the company is amazed when these folks leave to find other jobs.. Naturally they get left with the relatively useless graduates!!

Thats why I say the best way to get a decent raise is to move unless your company has a better business sense.

Frank

Ugh, so true.  I've had decent raises in the past.

But right now I work for a start up company - until about 2.5 years ago I was the most senior engineer, and the most highly paid.  I had about 10+ years more experience than the other engineers.

In the last few years we've hired 4 newer senior engineers.  Because we could not lowball them we paid market rate.  The lowest paid of the four makes $12k more than me.  And the president?  "You have stock!"  STFU, I am vested, I can just leave!  (So I'm looking, but I am tied to the area.  My last big lead and interview fell through.)

[TomTX]

Get a new job. Companies almost never give you the raises you deserve.

Stay. Get 0-5%/year.
New job. Get 20-40% raise.

[NathanDrake]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful replies. The gist seems to be:

1. Do not get an MBA and waste 250+K in a net worth swing simply because I'm not satisfied at my current job.
2. Find a new job, possibly in a different industry or role, that's much closer to work

Here's a few other pieces of information:

- I'm an electrical engineer and I work in the Aerospace industry. Similar to the other poster in the Aerospace field, an MBA isn't valued -- none of the senior management have one and they were all promoted with just a bachelors in engineering.

- Did not receive a PE certificate because the current industry I'm in doesn't require it.

- My salary, even with close to 6 years of experience and promotions to a Sr. Engineer overseeing a team of designers, is only 10% higher than new graduates in the 75th percentile according to my alma mater's school survey statistics. Without question, I am being underpaid.  There was an incident at my company where a new hire left his paystub on his desk which revealed that he was making more money than his mentor that had higher promotions. These sorts of shenanigans seem to be far too common in the corporate world. My company has extremely large salary bands for various "grades" of engineers. 25+K ranges for each pay grade of engineer, and they will pay tons of money to hire someone, but not pay to retain the talent they already have.

- I do not have a pension or vesting stock options, so there's really no incentive for me to stay.

So, how do I go about the job search?

- Unlike other professions that seem to lend themselves well to job hopping (business, sales), I feel engineering specializes you too much for a very specific role. Perhaps this is why there's so little compensation growth relative to other fields -- engineers get pigeon holed and there's not a lot of mobility from one company to the next (at least at my company, there's been very low turnover). This puts downward pressure on wages, as companies don't have to pay more since there is high retention. Note that this isn't necessarily the case for other forms of engineering, such as working for a software company in Silicon Valley where job hopping is more frequent.

- Because of this specialization, most job postings don't appear to be applicable for my experience, but largely tangentially related because they require an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering even though I do not have either the years or industry specific experience they are looking for.

- This is my first job after college. The job search at that time was easy -- sign up for on-campus interviews and the companies come to you. There's a wealth of options out there to pursue other opportunities once you're already in the workforce (monster, careerbuilder, linkedin, etc), but this process is impersonal and I never hear back regarding many positions and get spammed by junk offers from recruiters. I had success with this a few years back when I tested the market and received an interview and offer from a F500 company, but it wasn't enough of a salary boost to compensate for the increased working hours requirement.

-I also don't truly know whether these positions would be a good fit or not, and I have no clue about how I'd try and leverage my experience into some completely different role (like sales, for instance -- my company has ongoing contract work so there's not a whole lot in the way of engineering sales other than what I directly pitch to our customer for my portion of work scope).

I'd greatly appreciate any advice on how to target my job search to improve my quality of life while progressing my goal of financial independence. I already have a decent job, so I would not want to settle for another position that would just leave me in the same boat I currently am.

[Tyler]

- Unlike other professions that seem to lend themselves well to job hopping (business, sales), I feel engineering specializes you too much for a very specific role. Perhaps this is why there's so little compensation growth relative to other fields -- engineers get pigeon holed and there's not a lot of mobility from one company to the next (at least at my company, there's been very low turnover). This puts downward pressure on wages, as companies don't have to pay more since there is high retention. Note that this isn't necessarily the case for other forms of engineering, such as working for a software company in Silicon Valley where job hopping is more frequent.

I worked at a defense contractor for a while, so I know where you're coming from.  Working on specialized cutting-edge stuff is kinda like getting a PhD, where you become an expert in a very narrow field.  Step one is realizing that not every company works this way.  There are tons of opportunities for good engineers, and compensation growth (especially if you're willing to switch companies) is actually quite high relative to many other fields.  Personally, I think you need to get out of your mindset that every company is like your first one.  And if you feel like your skills are getting too tied to one company to be competitive, the best time to change that is right now.

[NathanDrake]

- Unlike other professions that seem to lend themselves well to job hopping (business, sales), I feel engineering specializes you too much for a very specific role. Perhaps this is why there's so little compensation growth relative to other fields -- engineers get pigeon holed and there's not a lot of mobility from one company to the next (at least at my company, there's been very low turnover). This puts downward pressure on wages, as companies don't have to pay more since there is high retention. Note that this isn't necessarily the case for other forms of engineering, such as working for a software company in Silicon Valley where job hopping is more frequent.

I worked at a defense contractor for a while, so I know where you're coming from.  Working on specialized cutting-edge stuff is kinda like getting a PhD, where you become an expert in a very narrow field.  Step one is realizing that not every company works this way.  There are tons of opportunities for good engineers, and compensation growth (especially if you're willing to switch companies) is actually quite high relative to many other fields.  Personally, I think you need to get out of your mindset that every company is like your first one.  And if you feel like your skills are getting too tied to one company to be competitive, the best time to change that is right now.

I suppose I'm just having difficulty knowing how to find a position that would be better. I agree that I need a change of scenery, but I'm afraid of making a mistake by switching somewhere even worse. I guess you never know unless you try, but I'm hoping some other folks on this board have made a similar leap of faith and it ended up working out well for them and how they ended up taking the uncertainty out of a job switch.

[Tyler]

I'm perhaps a few statistical deviations out of the norm, but I've worked for 8 different employers (large and small, in very different fields) as a mechanical engineer.  For me, I've found it helpful to picture every job not as an end to itself, but as a stepping stone in a larger career.  Take a tally of your resume today, picture where you'd ultimately like to end up, and look for a job that will help fill in the gaps to help you get there.  A career is a self-made journey. 

When it comes to looking for a new position, I've found it helpful to look at tangential applications of your expertise.  If you design defense imaging systems, look for opportunities designing cameras for GoPro.  If you have deep experience in a certain manufacturing technique, talk to the factory owner about what other types of companies he works for.  Part of removing uncertainty is to continue to play to your strengths even as you look for new ones to develop.

Finally, I do find it interesting that out of all my jobs I only got two of them off of cold online resume applications (and even then, I had to work some inside help for a while to get hired to the right position).  Networking really is a big deal.  Get yourself out there.

I'm sure others will have good advice as well.

[Peter Gibbons]

Hello NathanDrake,
I've been working in Mechanical Engineering for 19 yrs and in engineering management at a pretty large company.  I can relate to your comments.  Here's some advice:
1.  Talk candidly with your boss.  Tell him/her you are unhappy with your current assignments and your pay and ask if he/she can help you find a different role and better pay (bring your research on your market value to show your boss the data).  Not sure where you live, but here in the midwest the job market is excellent for engineers and the managers want to keep good employees happy to avoid losing them.  If you are not satisfied with this conversation, then have same conversation with HR and possibly with your boss' boss.
2. If you want to look outside your company then start working with a head hunter in addition to looking on line.  Do you know any good ones that have placed engineers into your company recently?  If you are willing to move to get closer to the office, then most large employers will be willing to pay relocation expenses.  Also, since you are only 6 years since your BSEE you should not feel pigeon holed at all; remember that a lot of what you learn early in engineering career is about methodologies and applications of engineering in the general sense; knowledge about the specific products you are working on is only a fraction of what you have learned.
Good luck !

[DecD]

I suppose I'm just having difficulty knowing how to find a position that would be better. I agree that I need a change of scenery, but I'm afraid of making a mistake by switching somewhere even worse. I guess you never know unless you try, but I'm hoping some other folks on this board have made a similar leap of faith and it ended up working out well for them and how they ended up taking the uncertainty out of a job switch.

You're worried about making a mistake but... what have you got to lose?

A horrific commute to a job you hate to make money you don't actually need at the moment, right?  So take a risk.  Do some serious looking.  Move across the country, find a location you're excited about, find a job that looks interesting, and take the plunge.  If it's no better....then do it again in a year.  Sounds like you have a perfect opportunity to really find a great situation rather than staying in a rut.

[Goldielocks]

With 6 year's experience, a degree in engineering and not unrealistic salary expectations, it would be hard to end up with something horrible.  You can always quit, you have the money.

You are not so advanced that your experience is non relative to a lot of others.

How about applying at a large engineering consulting firm?  These are very fluid organizations with a lot of variety.  But you may need to show an interest in getting your PE, and most of them will understand, and help you through it.

[ampersand]

I find it interesting how many engineers are in this forum. I think I feel where your coming from though I unfortunately don't have nearly the "stache" that you've amassed. It sounds like your interested not only in an MBA for the immediate job opportunities but for the learning side as well. I don't know what schools your looking at but my 100k on school seems to high.
What about going for the MBA and working at the college? A lot of programs have positions set up for cheap tuition and very minimal pay. You could probably find an assistant ship paying 15k and your tuition. That allows your money to compound, you to get an additional degree, and some fun practical experience with little to no pressure. Anyway just a thought .


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Emg03063]

So, how do I go about the job search?

Start here:  http://www.amazon.com/What-Color-Your-Parachute-2014/dp/1607743620

[pom]

Did you consider moving to another country?

For my career so far I did USA-Belgium-USA-France, it has been a lot of fun.

I was tired of my job in the USA so I asked for a transfert to Belgium (I speak French but it is not totally necessary, you can learn it or Dutch once there). Pay was much lower but enough to live well, travel and not touch the "stache".

I found that the main advantage was that I could take sort-of a break while at the same time having no gap in my resume. When the company asked me to come back to the US two years later, the pay that they offered me was 20% higher than when I left.

For the French job, I was older and wiser so I waited until the offer was more or less equivalent as what I had in the US. For that to happen I had to leave for a new employer.

[Anatidae V]

I was a manager at an engineering company and I saw this happen all the time.. it was quite blatant.

Frank

Frank,

I'm curious about your take on that situation.  My current company is going through a new performance management system and claims that they will start paying everyone market value for their positions.  I have been reviewing the market value for my position and my research shows that my salary should be brought up at least 15% to be at market value.  Everyone I talk to says that a 15% raise is unheard of and HR would never let it happen.

A little background, I'm one of three engineers for an electric utility company.  The other two engineers are my boss and his boss, the CEO.  I have 3 years of experience and my current salary is the same level as the salary offer I had for one job when I first graduated. (I picked a lower paying job thinking I would have better opportunities, didn't work out that way unless you count the contact I made that landed me the job I have today.)

Yes I would belive the 15% when I saw it!.

I have a few examples but basically I saw the salaries for new engineering graduates at $5k above the folks that had been there for between 3 and 4 years.

Needless to say somebody with 3 to 4 years of experience is FAR more valuable to the organisation than a raw graduate.

And then the company is amazed when these folks leave to find other jobs.. Naturally they get left with the relatively useless graduates!!

Thats why I say the best way to get a decent raise is to move unless your company has a better business sense.

Frank

Ugh, so true.  I've had decent raises in the past.

But right now I work for a start up company - until about 2.5 years ago I was the most senior engineer, and the most highly paid.  I had about 10+ years more experience than the other engineers.

In the last few years we've hired 4 newer senior engineers.  Because we could not lowball them we paid market rate.  The lowest paid of the four makes $12k more than me.  And the president?  "You have stock!"  STFU, I am vested, I can just leave!  (So I'm looking, but I am tied to the area.  My last big lead and interview fell through.)

Our new grads are paid less than the 3+ year experienced people, but its a damn close thing. I have 3.5 years experience in my engineering consulting firm and am starting to manage my own small jobs. I'm feeling underpaid and was not really enjoying the work.

Can you go straight from your current job to one in an area you're interested in? I looked online at jobs, worked out what I wanted to do and realised I'm in the wrong field. I told my boss, he's going to help me get the experience I want and then I'll review whether I stay or job hunt 6 months after that, since I'll have experience in the field I (think I will) want to continue working in. If you need different experience to get a job you think you'll enjoy, push for it at your current place first.

That said, 6 months off to travel? I can't imagine any decent employers viewing that negatively. It's very different to just bumming around.

[SpecAg08]

Hey NathanDrake,

I am a MechE in a very similar position, and I just wanted to say that I have greatly enjoyed the discussion on this thread. It's nice to hear some of the more experienced engineers candidly discuss less than pleasant aspects of the corporate world.

For what it's worth, I too am strongly considering looking for a new job. A wave of engineers have left our company as of late, and rumor has it they're getting 40%-50% raises in the process. On top of that I would really like to live closer to family (right now they're all 1000+ miles away). My wife and I recently had a baby, and the importance of family is really hitting us hard. 

Best of luck in your career adventures!

[defenestrate]

i have an MBA from one of the "top" schools. It has been quite beneficial for me; but it is not something I would recommend to everyone, and certainly a lot of my peers share disappointments. If you are having a salary issue, go get some offers and see what your market value really is.

Ask the supervisor for a raise, and be candid. If you are a valued employee, the unheard of 15% raise will quickly become a reality. If you are not valued, you should run with your hair on fire to a place that you are. If there is no place to run, and they do not offer you a raise, it is likely you are getting your market rate--in which case, an MBA will not help you.

[Noodle]

One thing you mention is that you're not sure quite how to search for a job outside of the college recruiting system. This would be an excellent time to develop this skill! In a career, most people are likely to find themselves laid off or needing to leave a job quickly at least once, if not more. You will be in a much better position if you have already practiced job searching and have this skill in your pocket. And job hunting from a secure position is the best scenario, because it lets you wait for good choices about your next job move.

[RetireAbroadAt35]

Get a new job. Companies almost never give you the raises you deserve.

Stay. Get 0-5%/year.
New job. Get 20-40% raise.

This guy has it nailed.  This is my experience as well.  Get a new job.  My most recent job switch came with a 25% raise.  My company was offering me 5%.

[req897]

Downshifted MechE here, 90% done w/ part time B-school.   Pretty much everything you might want to know from b-school can be found for free at quickmba.com.  I would not waste the time or tuition to pay someone else to teach you what you can teach yourself for free.  I second the suggestion to go work for a small company.  I just did.  It's refreshing.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/just-started-a-new-job-at-13-my-former-salary/

Congrats on the 'stache!  You're way ahead of where I was at your age.  I'm slightly jealous. :)

Very awesome link! I've thought about getting an MBA before but no way I'm pay for it!

[bacchi]

Edit:just read you are burnt out. The resume gap problem is a myth. You need to realize you will open doors by having that 'gap'.

Truth. I have a 1 year "job" in my resume that has a single bullet item: Hiking, backpacking, and international travel

Most of the time, the interviewers are curious and even jealous.

[Chranstronaut]

First and foremost, I would agree with others saying to quit.  Now.  With over 5 years experience and enough money to live on long term, there is zero reason to stay where you are unhappy.  Seriously.  That commute is killing you slowly-- I know from personal experience with a 2-3 hour round-trip commute.

- Because of this specialization, most job postings don't appear to be applicable for my experience, but largely tangentially related because they require an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering even though I do not have either the years or industry specific experience they are looking for.

Apply any way.  Write in your personal statement how your skills are useful to that position.  If they don't require a personal statement, consider submitting one anyway.  Different industry than aerospace?  Focus on how working in aerospace requires higher precision and makes you a stronger candidate for other industries (or whatever other qualities you have from your job).  People get hired with less experience than the posted amount all the time.  Just apply with confidence and sincerity; you'll probably be surprised at how far that gets you.  You can't get the job if you don't apply.

- This is my first job after college.

This sounds like there might be a lack of confidence and maybe nerves.  Just remember that you have WAY more financial freedom than most people looking for work.  You have time on your side to find the right position.  There are a LOT of other places to work and you have freedom to move around and try new things.  Do you have a local university nearby?  Even if you're not a student, some schools will still let you access the career center.

I'd greatly appreciate any advice on how to target my job search to improve my quality of life while progressing my goal of financial independence. I already have a decent job, so I would not want to settle for another position that would just leave me in the same boat I currently am.

No job is "decent" if you hate it every day.  My recommendation for a targeted job search is to look for opportunities to interview with them, either an informational interview or an actual job interview you applied for.  I recently learned that "informational interviews" exist.  Basically, if you know someone at another company, ask them if someone would be willing to sit down with you and answer some questions about their company/industry.  This works well if a friend of yours has a technical mentor that is willing to give you a half hour of their time.  At my large engineering company, this is not uncommon and many high ranking engineers allot time to give guidance/mentorship.  In person interviews are probably best, but a phone interview is better than over email.  You need to see their genuine reactions to your questions.  I wouldn't bother doing an information interview with HR--they won't know what the engineering jobs are like day-to-day.  And since you have enough money to quit your job today, it should be no problem for you to take a quick tour and interview at 9am in the middle of the week ;)

Take the time to ask sincere questions about the culture of the organization and why the position is open.  Any large aerospace company will probably have a stiff or traditional culture-- maybe a different industry or smaller company is better for you.  I believe that the idea of "resume gaps"being a disadvantage are a myth and saying you're looking for an engaging and active work culture is a valid reason for wanting to switch jobs.

[NathanDrake]

I wouldn't say I despise my current job. I'm just very bored and burned out. There's no excitement anymore, and I don't foresee there being any more as I continue to progress here. I think this may be typical for a lot of careers, and I bring up the fact that this is my first job only because I don't have the experience working at a lot of places that many forum members here do, which is why I'm seeking advice because they've been through this already. Whatever job I likely end up at next will probably result in the same feelings after a few years, I'd imagine...but maybe not.

You're absolutely right that I'd be a lot happier if I had an extra 2+ hours each day of my free time back, which would allow me to reset more everyday and feel better about my job in general, even if the work is largely similar to my current position.

More than anything though there's some reluctance to switch merely because I'd effectively reset back to start. Right now I'm managing projects with a team of engineers under me, and if I switched then it may feel like a step down in terms of a role, even though I'd likely get paid more...but perhaps this assumption is incorrect.

[jmechanical]

A great book I have read is Advice to Rocket Scientists: A Career Survival Guide for Scientists and Engineers by Jim Longuski.

http://amzn.com/156347655X

It is geared to aerospace engineers, but it could apply to any type of engineer. I highly recommend it.

One thing it mentions is that if you are getting meager raises and are underpaid, it could be a problem in future interviews. "It's a sure sign of a problem when a candidate from a top company has a low salary like this."

Another thing it mentions is that you should make a change every three years. You should make a lateral move within the company every three years or change companies if you aren't promoted and all else fails. It takes three years to learn approximately 80% of an area and another decade to learn the remaining 20%. It goes on to compare who is more promotable, a guy who stayed in one position for a decade or a guy who spent three years in navigation, three years in guidance and control and three years in mission operations (again, it is aerospace oriented). Obviously the latter. The former is now to narrow and comfortable in his role, he is obviously afraid of change.

Also, engineers gain transferable skills. Finite Element Analysis, Tolerance Stack-ups, drafting, project management, etc. I wouldn't worry about changing fields / industries, you still have skills that are important and useful.

I really recommend this book. It is cheap (if you can't do the mustachian thing and find it at your library) and can be read in an hour easy.

More than anything though there's some reluctance to switch merely because I'd effectively reset back to start. Right now I'm managing projects with a team of engineers under me, and if I switched then it may feel like a step down in terms of a role, even though I'd likely get paid more...but perhaps this assumption is incorrect.

I think that is a good thing. Resetting back to start. That means things will be interesting, new and, exciting again. You don't want to be afraid of change, I feel like that is how you will get stuck and pigeon-holed in a boring position.

[Daisy]

I wouldn't say I despise my current job. I'm just very bored and burned out. There's no excitement anymore, and I don't foresee there being any more as I continue to progress here.

The older you get, the less exciting the working world becomes. Especially those of us with a FIRE focus. Maybe excitement at work is overrated. Keep in mind I have over 20 years of engineering experience and have worked part/full time for about 31 years, so maybe I'm a little jaded. But I'm only 45. ;-)

I try to make my working life as exciting as I can by volunteering for the social planning, going to the on-site gym, trying to work from home sometimes. It's about a good a job as I can get and it's actually quite a nice place to work. But still, it's work and I'm not in control of my time and I'd rather do other stuff.

Excitement for me is a nice hike, bike ride, learning how to sketch, etc., skiing, travelling, sleeping in.

I did get an MBA about 8-10 years ago. My company was starting to send work overseas and I saw it as my backup plan. I asked management, and they paid for my MBA (they stopped paying for MBAs a while back so it's not available now). Was it worth it? Not sure. I did increase my business knowledge but I haven't really tried to get into a role that needed the MBA. On the other hand, my mom was very sick during this time, and I was also still working full time with the MBA course load. I was dating someone at the time and I think it was just way too much and the relationship didn't work out. Would it have been different without the MBA? I'm not sure, but I often wonder. I felt very stressed out during that time.

EDIT: I wouldn't have paid for the MBA myself. I didn't think so then, and more so now after the fact.

[NathanDrake]

A great book I have read is Advice to Rocket Scientists: A Career Survival Guide for Scientists and Engineers by Jim Longuski.

http://amzn.com/156347655X

It is geared to aerospace engineers, but it could apply to any type of engineer. I highly recommend it.

One thing it mentions is that if you are getting meager raises and are underpaid, it could be a problem in future interviews. "It's a sure sign of a problem when a candidate from a top company has a low salary like this."

Another thing it mentions is that you should make a change every three years. You should make a lateral move within the company every three years or change companies if you aren't promoted and all else fails. It takes three years to learn approximately 80% of an area and another decade to learn the remaining 20%. It goes on to compare who is more promotable, a guy who stayed in one position for a decade or a guy who spent three years in navigation, three years in guidance and control and three years in mission operations (again, it is aerospace oriented). Obviously the latter. The former is now to narrow and comfortable in his role, he is obviously afraid of change.

Also, engineers gain transferable skills. Finite Element Analysis, Tolerance Stack-ups, drafting, project management, etc. I wouldn't worry about changing fields / industries, you still have skills that are important and useful.

I really recommend this book. It is cheap (if you can't do the mustachian thing and find it at your library) and can be read in an hour easy.

Sounds like an interesting read along with the poster that recommended "what color is your parachute", will try and read both. Thanks

I will say, however, that my salary isn't necessarily low, and I don't think it will flag anything in particular to potential employers. I just believe that it's the industry I'm in... My raises have been better than my peers and I've been promoted faster. The problem is that neither has resulted in substantial increases, particularly after inflation.

Top performers here get maybe a 4% annual raise, and average coworkers receive a 2-2.5% raise. That difference between the two isn't all that much, which is depressing considering I give myself a "raise" each year to the tune of $3K in future annual income each year simply by investing the majority of my salary.

[Noodle]

For some people job ennui is about work overall, for others it is about burning out on a particular position. If I understand your bio correctly, you've just had the one job, so you don't really know how much of a difference a different position might make. Why not go ahead and start looking to make a change? If you find yourself still bored after a year at the new position, then you know you need to make a bigger change, whether it's a degree or accelerating FIRE.

Honestly, I usually start to get bored and burned out around the 4-5 year mark myself. Right now it's a challenge because I'm about to hit the four year anniversary on what is the best job I've ever had. People tend to stay here for decades, so I need to figure out a way to keep myself fresh. Luckily the position has a lot of variety and opportunity for new projects built in, so that ought to help.

[JoJo]

I've been in similar situation.  At 31, I was making just over 100K had saved about 400K and had tired of corporate life & my city after 8 years.  I chose to travel abroad for 13 months and then teach english for 7 months (making $150 a month).
It was the time of my life.  I returned to the US and went back into the business world with a new lease on life.  Also, I don't recommend just traveling but consider extended volunteer work or learning a language (Spanish is great in central and south america and quite cheap to do - it's still as cheap as $300 a week for room, board and 20 hours of private instruction).

I am another voter for the no MBA route.  I explored it for awhile but I think that the ability to become a "Leader" is inherent and not something that is learned.  It's biggest benefit is networking but there are other routes to do networking for little cost (linked in, local professional clubs, alumni clubs, searching out mentors in a field you'd like to get into, etc).  The business world is best learned in the field.

In my case, taking the break hasn't had too negative effect on my career.  At 8 years post sabbatical, making $200K a year, and honestly thinking about doing another sabbatical or retiring within the next couple years.

[rujancified]

Edit:just read you are burnt out. The resume gap problem is a myth. You need to realize you will open doors by having that 'gap'.

Truth. I have a 1 year "job" in my resume that has a single bullet item: Hiking, backpacking, and international travel

Most of the time, the interviewers are curious and even jealous.

I would interview anyone who had this on their resume. Even if the skills they had weren't a perfect match for the job.

[theonethatgotaway]

I guess another way to look at your current position is,

Do they really need you? Will you be missed?

Those are the big questions that factor into a raise. 15% is not u hear of, my husband swung a 25% raise, that put him over people 8 years senior at the time. He waited it out 8 months until he knew they would see what he was doing as that much more valuable.

From my understanding most engineers top out close to entry level pay. So unless you speed up management then the pay comparative isn't that differentiated.

Perhaps having something outside of work that you're passionate about would help the day to day. Another reason to take a bit off.