Author Topic: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?  (Read 13950 times)

Telecaster

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2016, 08:15:15 PM »
This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.

That's Mr. democrat progressive scum to you. 

sol

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2016, 08:17:49 PM »
Perhaps you should move to Qatar.

Ummm qatar uses alot of violence and force on their *meaning ownership* people, which is what libertarians are strongly against... so that is a bad idea.

I think you may have missed the point here, Moony.   JLee was trying to highlight that nobody is forcing you to live in America.  In fact, you are freeloading off of other Americans by being here, using our military to defend your property, our EPA to provide you clean air and water, our DOT to build the roads you use.  You have chosen to receive these benefits, and now you are claiming "theft" when you are asked to help pay for things you have taken?  Did you get a public education?  Do you use the internet?

You have a pretty messed up idea about what constitutes theft.  When you take all of these things from America and then refuse to pay for them, YOU are the thief.

It is your choice to live in America.  The rest of us have fought and died to defend your freedom to make that choice, or to choose to live anywhere else you like.  You are not forced to live here, and nobody with a gun will come to your house and lock you in a cage for it.  But living here comes with a social contract that says if you live here AND make more than the average salary as personal profit from all of the things that America has provided you, then you are expected to repay America for some of the things you have taken and enjoyed.  If you come here and don't profit, you get to enjoy those things for free.

You wouldn't walk into the greatest restaurant on Earth and eat a big meal, then cry "theft" when your waiter delivers the bill, would you?  You are no more entitled to steal that meal from that great restaurant than you are to steal from America and then refuse to pay taxes.  Your sense of entitlement is pretty disappointing, as if you think all of the benefits that Americans have bought with their blood sweat and tears are somehow your god-given right.  You can do your part, or you can go elsewhere, but you can't dine in this fine establishment if you're going to refuse the tab.

JLee

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2016, 08:20:59 PM »
Perhaps you should move to Qatar.

Ummm qatar uses alot of violence and force on their *meaning ownership* people, which is what libertarians are strongly against... so that is a bad idea.

I think you may have missed the point here, Moony.   JLee was trying to highlight that nobody is forcing you to live in America.  In fact, you are freeloading off of other Americans by being here, using our military to defend your property, our EPA to provide you clean air and water, our DOT to build the roads you use.  You have chosen to receive these benefits, and now you are claiming "theft" when you are asked to help pay for things you have taken?  Did you get a public education?  Do you use the internet?

You have a pretty messed up idea about what constitutes theft.  When you take all of these things from America and then refuse to pay for them, YOU are the thief.

It is your choice to live in America.  The rest of us have fought and died to defend your freedom to make that choice, or to choose to live anywhere else you like.  You are not forced to live here, and nobody with a gun will come to your house and lock you in a cage for it.  But living here comes with a social contract that says if you live here AND make more than the average salary as personal profit from all of the things that America has provided you, then you are expected to repay America for some of the things you have taken and enjoyed.  If you come here and don't profit, you get to enjoy those things for free.

You wouldn't walk into the greatest restaurant on Earth and eat a big meal, then cry "theft" when your waiter delivers the bill, would you?  You are no more entitled to steal that meal from that great restaurant than you are to steal from America and then refuse to pay taxes.  Your sense of entitlement is pretty disappointing, as if you think all of the benefits that Americans have bought with their blood sweat and tears are somehow your god-given right.  You can do your part, or you can go elsewhere, but you can't dine in this fine establishment if you're going to refuse the tab.

Well said.

Qatar has no personal income tax, so the suggestion seemed appropriate. :)

waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2016, 09:00:46 PM »
Well said, Sol.

Again, you can disagree with the policies of the United States. I certainly disagree with many of them. But I feel the benefits of living here and paying taxes/being a citizen FAR outweigh the costs, so I happily pay my taxes and fund many things I don't like - along with many things I do. I vote and advocate for policies I like and against those I don't, but I would never call the portion of my taxes that goes to, say, ethanol subsidies "theft" because I have a choice - I can leave and live in another country with policies I like more and never have to fund that again.

You choose to stay in/join our club, you play by club rules (though you get a say in changing them). It's totally voluntary and it's not in any way coerced or unfair.

Anything voluntary cannot be theft. Full stop. Do not use that word in this context if you want to be taken seriously.

-W

LeRainDrop

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2016, 09:07:52 PM »
+1 to sol and waltworks --> social contract / voluntary citizenship / benefits outweigh the costs

bacchi

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2016, 12:49:36 AM »
Im as libertarian as it gets.  Far right constitutionalist without thw wars and religion. Huge garden, chickens, rabbits, hunts, fishes, diesel truck, hot rods, bicycles, self reliant, land in the country etc.  Let me have flat tax

Damn commie hippies are even co-opting the word "libertarian." Political correctness run amok.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 12:55:35 AM by bacchi »

MoonLiteNite

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2016, 02:43:30 AM »
Qatar has no personal income tax, so the suggestion seemed appropriate. :)

Libertarianism is far from just about taxes... that is just one tiny drop of the bucket....
Just one other aspect that someone is controling over your life and your personal freedom. Just like with pot, gay marriage, guns, forced heath care, and income tax, just one of the many many things.

Qatar is one actually one of the WORST countries in the world for personal freedom.


« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 02:46:09 AM by MoonLiteNite »

waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2016, 08:56:01 AM »
Yeah, darn that Obama making me get gay married.

Wait, what?

That kind of dumbassery is why nobody takes libertarians seriously. And you still didn't explain why you aren't leaving for greener pastures.

-W
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 09:02:32 AM by waltworks »

ender

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2016, 09:21:38 AM »
+1 to sol and waltworks --> social contract / voluntary citizenship / benefits outweigh the costs

Keep in mind that the voluntary citizenship aspect is pretty much a limited thing for many people. There are a lot of people who have minimal ability to actually leave the country.

I find this argument to be a bit naive at best.

It's kind of like saying, "you can buy a million dollar estate if you want, no one's stopping you." While it might be technically true, ignoring the practical considerations required to get that result seems a bit disingenuous.

waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2016, 09:31:43 AM »
Pretty much anyone posting here could quite easily afford it, though.

Most self-identified libertarians are at least wealthy enough to be 19 year old undergrads reading Ayn Rand for the first time. :)

Seriously, it doesn't cost much to leave the US (even on a plane). With a tiny bit of shopping around you can fly basically anywhere on earth for $1500 or so. Where you'd go is another question, but the leaving part is darn easy. I guess you could make some sort of argument that nation-states (ie, collectivist enterprises of various types) have taken over all the viable land on the globe and hence there's nowhere truly free to go.

To which I'd say: that's probably true. But there are certainly places where government is minimal if not nonexistent that you can live. You might not like those places, and if that's the case, you should look long and hard about your assumptions about how much government is ideal.

-W

Keep in mind that the voluntary citizenship aspect is pretty much a limited thing for many people. There are a lot of people who have minimal ability to actually leave the country.

I find this argument to be a bit naive at best.

It's kind of like saying, "you can buy a million dollar estate if you want, no one's stopping you." While it might be technically true, ignoring the practical considerations required to get that result seems a bit disingenuous.

sol

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2016, 09:52:23 AM »
+1 to sol and waltworks --> social contract / voluntary citizenship / benefits outweigh the costs

Keep in mind that the voluntary citizenship aspect is pretty much a limited thing for many people. There are a lot of people who have minimal ability to actually leave the country.

I find this argument to be a bit naive at best.

It's kind of like saying, "you can buy a million dollar estate if you want, no one's stopping you." While it might be technically true, ignoring the practical considerations required to get that result seems a bit disingenuous.

Fortunately, all of the people who are too poor to be able to leave the country, also have zero income tax liability!  It's a libertarian dreamland!

It's, it's almost like it was designed that way or something.  Though to hear the libertarians in this thread say it, a flat tax would somehow be preferable to this arrangement.  Apparently they want to prevent people from being able to escape the boot heel of American oppressive taxation.

And let's not forget that walking to Canada and Mexico is totally free.  Unless you use some of those public roads that you refuse to pay for in order to get there, then you're stealing from America again.  I'm sure Moony will find some way to argue that he is being robbed blind if he freely walks across the border on US infrastructure.

waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2016, 10:49:19 AM »
Pwned by Sol again (I mean me, with my much less cleverly written response)! Yikes.

-W

ender

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2016, 12:11:54 PM »
Fortunately, all of the people who are too poor to be able to leave the country, also have zero income tax liability!  It's a libertarian dreamland!

It's, it's almost like it was designed that way or something.  Though to hear the libertarians in this thread say it, a flat tax would somehow be preferable to this arrangement.  Apparently they want to prevent people from being able to escape the boot heel of American oppressive taxation.

And let's not forget that walking to Canada and Mexico is totally free.  Unless you use some of those public roads that you refuse to pay for in order to get there, then you're stealing from America again.  I'm sure Moony will find some way to argue that he is being robbed blind if he freely walks across the border on US infrastructure.

... ? This feels like a rant against a position I never took.

Or maybe I misunderstand. Is the implied voluntary "social contract" argument only relevant for those paying into the system? And anyone who is net benefiting is not subject to the same thing, where they are voluntarily choosing to participate? Are those people unwilling participants against their will?

If anything, your response boils down to the idea that "if you're too poor you can't leave our system and that's ok and by design since you profit from it" which I find... a bit difficult of a position to support. Particularly if it's made as a piece of  some "social contract" or "voluntary citizenship" argument.


waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2016, 12:46:44 PM »
Dude, stop. Sol completely destroyed both parts of your argument - if you're poor, you're already paying no income taxes, so at least from an economic perspective, this is a libertarian paradise. And yes, you can afford to leave even if you have zero. People walk across borders all the time, often traveling thousands of miles to do it.

Citizenship is a voluntary contract. It might take you some effort to get out of it, but you can do it even without any money at your disposal. You just can't occupy the land owned by all the other citizens anymore.

-W
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 12:58:20 PM by waltworks »

Classical_Liberal

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2016, 01:42:27 PM »
Dude, stop. Sol completely destroyed both parts of your argument - if you're poor, you're already paying no income taxes, so at least from an economic perspective, this is a libertarian paradise. And yes, you can afford to leave even if you have zero. People walk across borders all the time, often traveling thousands of miles to do it.

Citizenship is a voluntary contract. It might take you some effort to get out of it, but you can do it even without any money at your disposal. You just can't occupy the land owned by all the other citizens anymore.

-W

'merica, love it or leave it?  This argument sounds familiar...

Telecaster

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2016, 01:46:32 PM »

... ? This feels like a rant against a position I never took.

Or maybe I misunderstand. Is the implied voluntary "social contract" argument only relevant for those paying into the system? And anyone who is net benefiting is not subject to the same thing, where they are voluntarily choosing to participate? Are those people unwilling participants against their will?

If anything, your response boils down to the idea that "if you're too poor you can't leave our system and that's ok and by design since you profit from it" which I find... a bit difficult of a position to support. Particularly if it's made as a piece of  some "social contract" or "voluntary citizenship" argument.

I think you are making it too hard.  On the previous page, MoonLiteNite complained that he was being forced to pay taxes against his will, and if he failed to do so he might even be murdered!*   

As others pointed out so well, that's not true because one can simply leave rather than risk death if one so chooses.   In other words, he's not being forced to do anything. 

I also don't buy the "too poor to move" argument.  If I thought my life was in danger, I would beat feat with nothing more than the clothes on my back.  Millions of refugees immigrate with not much more. 

It is certainly fine to advocate changes in public policy, including taxes.  But if you don't get to claim your life is at stake, when it isn't.   




*I just have to point out that you would have commit serious tax fraud before the IRS actually came and arrested you.  If you simply failed to pay, they would just seize your assets.   Yet another way that analogy fails. 





waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2016, 02:18:05 PM »
'merica, love it or leave it?  This argument sounds familiar...

Ha, that's funny. Good point.

You don't have to love it. But if you love it more than the alternatives, well...

-W

ender

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2016, 03:11:50 PM »
I think you are making it too hard.  On the previous page, MoonLiteNite complained that he was being forced to pay taxes against his will, and if he failed to do so he might even be murdered!*   

As others pointed out so well, that's not true because one can simply leave rather than risk death if one so chooses.   In other words, he's not being forced to do anything. 

I also don't buy the "too poor to move" argument.  If I thought my life was in danger, I would beat feat with nothing more than the clothes on my back.  Millions of refugees immigrate with not much more. 

It is certainly fine to advocate changes in public policy, including taxes.  But if you don't get to claim your life is at stake, when it isn't.   




*I just have to point out that you would have commit serious tax fraud before the IRS actually came and arrested you.  If you simply failed to pay, they would just seize your assets.   Yet another way that analogy fails.

This makes a bit more sense, if this is the perspective sol thought I had in his post.

I would still caution against the "well, you're choosing X because you could just do Y instead" approach because within reason and given enough pressure, outside forces can cause you to choose to do a lot of different things.  Simply because one can choose an alternative option doesn't suddenly give a carte blanche to allow anything.

The problem a lot of Libertarians make, including the one you reference apparently, is taking an otherwise fairly defensible perspective (though others may disagree) into a hyperbolic extreme, which is easily disagreed with because the hyperbolic part is... hyperbolic.

Though to be fair, this is how many people portray their political positions. It's not overly uncommon.

GetItRight

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2016, 04:37:05 PM »
I am libertarian. It all boils down to owning one's body and the Non-Aggression Principle. Others wish to do violence to those who have harmed no one, that's not me.

Reading threads here is seems most are somewhere between socialist and outright communist, a very violent and nasty bunch. Though by that poll it seems abotu 45% here are more or less libertarian (including socially liberal+fiscally conservative). I think libertarians tend to not be as vocal, and certainly not as aggressive in the personal attack department.

sol

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2016, 04:59:58 PM »
I think libertarians tend to not be as vocal, and certainly not as aggressive in the personal attack department.

As a counterpoint to this assertion, exhibit A comes from this very thread's self-identified libertarians making aggressive personal attacks:

Im as libertarian as it gets... If youve ever taken a dime of gov assistance youre out of my circle. 

This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.

waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2016, 05:27:42 PM »
Please point out some of these personal attacks. While you're at it, you can address the question of why you haven't pulled up stakes moved somewhere with less government...

-W

LeRainDrop

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2016, 06:26:39 PM »
Goose Doose has only 5 posts on the MMM forum and clearly hasn't internalized the forum rule to be respectful of others.  I'm going to reject the notion that he's a good representative of the MMM libertarians overall.

Telecaster

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2016, 08:38:12 PM »
I would still caution against the "well, you're choosing X because you could just do Y instead" approach because within reason and given enough pressure, outside forces can cause you to choose to do a lot of different things.  Simply because one can choose an alternative option doesn't suddenly give a carte blanche to allow anything.

I heartily agree on that point.  There is nothing wrong with advocating for or against public policies you disagree with.  In fact, it is your duty as a citizen.   If the reaction to every criticism or new proposal was "if you feel like that, then just leave" we'd never get anything done.   

In this case though, MoonLiteNite stated he was never asked if he wanted to join the club, and therefore complained that he was being asked to chip in.  It is true he never opted in.  But neither is he required to stay.     As waltworks pointed out initially, you can't claim theft if you are here voluntarily. 

I'll go a step further and say the club is set up is that if you don't like the rules, you can persuade your fellow citizens to join you in changing them, and in fact you can vote to change the rules.  But since  you have both a voice in the rules, and the ability opt out, you don't get to claim you are an unwilling victim.  That's just whining.   

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2016, 09:00:33 PM »
This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.
Harsh but fair.

Also, to clarify: this board is international. The USA is like a needy girlfriend: honey, it's not all about you.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 09:03:10 PM by Kyle Schuant »

waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2016, 09:47:27 PM »
You can apply the same arguments to any other country, of course. My apologies to those who felt slighted!

-W

Vagabond76

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #75 on: October 16, 2016, 10:05:56 PM »
+1 to Goose

Roboturner

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2016, 09:16:22 AM »
This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.  MOD NOTE: If you think 1/2 the forum members are "scum" you may wany to find another community to meet your needs/be an echo chamber for your views.

Calling it a 50/50 split is being generous :P

also i can't help but chuckle at the irony of the 'mod'


Gin1984

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2016, 11:41:01 AM »
I am libertarian. It all boils down to owning one's body and the Non-Aggression Principle. Others wish to do violence to those who have harmed no one, that's not me.

Reading threads here is seems most are somewhere between socialist and outright communist, a very violent and nasty bunch. Though by that poll it seems abotu 45% here are more or less libertarian (including socially liberal+fiscally conservative). I think libertarians tend to not be as vocal, and certainly not as aggressive in the personal attack department.
I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative and I am in NO WAY a libertarian.  I think you are biasing your results.  You can't find 45% of people who identify as libertarian here.

waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2016, 11:44:36 AM »
Are you guys just trying to make LeRainDrop look bad?

-W

LeRainDrop

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2016, 11:52:59 AM »
Are you guys just trying to make LeRainDrop look bad?

LOL, I know, right?

mm1970

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2016, 11:56:46 AM »
This whole thread is interesting, and the charts were very interesting too.  Especially because I've always considered myself "centrist" (depending on the quiz, I come out Libertarian or Democrat).  But none of those politicians are all that far left.  What does that mean?  I guess it means it's all relative.

I'm too liberal for my home county and too conservative for my current town.  Definitely I'm the left of center, but I'm for sure in the center.  Very few topics are black/ white for me.  It's complicated.

wenchsenior

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2016, 12:31:06 PM »
I am libertarian. It all boils down to owning one's body and the Non-Aggression Principle. Others wish to do violence to those who have harmed no one, that's not me.

Reading threads here is seems most are somewhere between socialist and outright communist, a very violent and nasty bunch. Though by that poll it seems abotu 45% here are more or less libertarian (including socially liberal+fiscally conservative). I think libertarians tend to not be as vocal, and certainly not as aggressive in the personal attack department.
I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative and I am in NO WAY a libertarian.  I think you are biasing your results.  You can't find 45% of people who identify as libertarian here.

I self identify as socially liberal and fiscally conservative, and definitely do not identify as libertarian either. But as we've established on several threads about libertarianism, even those who do identify as libertarian can't seem to agree on what it actually means to be one.

waltworks

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2016, 12:46:06 PM »
Yeah, I was in a libertarian group in grad school. It was a shitshow. You had about 50% sane rational people who functioned well around others and could have a dialogue with someone that didn't agree, and then a hodgepodge of antisocial lunatics of various kinds. I recall it being about 95% male. People tended to disappear once they found a girlfriend (or a girlfriend found them). Funny stuff.

Point being, none of us could ever agree on what it meant either. Taken to it's logical and philosophical extreme, it's basically anarchism. But once you admit that you need things like an army, courts, police/fire/rescue, public infrastructure, etc (items that get more and more controversial among libertarians) you're actually talking about (!) collective action being used to overcome free rider problems and it all goes to hell because if you're going to tax people to pay for the common good then... crap, you're taxing people to pay for the common good!

-W


dougules

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2016, 01:09:07 PM »
I think the amount of debatearguing proves that the forum here has a pretty wide range of political beliefs.  Unfortunately, everybody is always right. 

Schaefer Light

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2016, 01:52:13 PM »
Point being, none of us could ever agree on what it meant either. Taken to it's logical and philosophical extreme, it's basically anarchism. But once you admit that you need things like an army, courts, police/fire/rescue, public infrastructure, etc (items that get more and more controversial among libertarians) you're actually talking about (!) collective action being used to overcome free rider problems and it all goes to hell because if you're going to tax people to pay for the common good then... crap, you're taxing people to pay for the common good!
I think that people who affiliate with any political party are always going to be spread out across a spectrum.  I'm not sure there's a clear definition of conservatism, liberalism, or socialism any more than there is libertarianism (if that's even a word).

swick

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Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2016, 02:33:19 PM »
Mod Note: Thread locked due to multiple complaints.