Author Topic: Marriage vs. Cohabiting  (Read 4856 times)

lifeandlimb

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Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« on: August 25, 2023, 03:33:41 PM »
[Edited to remove personal details]
TLDR:
I wanted to get your thoughts on specific financial and logistical benefits (or downsides) of legal marriage vs. just cohabiting, which we have done quite happily for years. We do not live in a common law state.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 08:21:54 AM by lifeandlimb »

ixtap

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2023, 03:43:30 PM »
First, marriage doesn't have to have anything at all to do with the wedding industry. You can always be married by a justice of the peace or a friend willing to fill out some paperwork, in the comfort of your own home, if you choose. I paid more for the IL's plane tickets than the whole rest of the wedding.

With the vast difference in you incomes, you will likely see a tax benefit from marriage, but consulting with a tax expert is a good idea.

Medical insurance, medical decisions and inheritance laws were high on our reasons for getting married. We also figured it would could help with international travel in the future, but we still haven't order a copy of the certificate and our tenth anniversary is coming up in a few months, so not sure if it would have mattered vs just claiming to be married if it ever came down to that.

HPstache

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2023, 03:48:42 PM »
Are there potential children in your future?

GilesMM

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2023, 03:54:49 PM »
Cohabiting is sort of roommates that share a bed - not necessarily a verbal nor written nor public commitment. Either party is free to go, stay, or something in between.   I'm sure it can work but it seems to lack substance which is why, traditionally, it has been frowned upon.

lifeandlimb

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2023, 03:55:45 PM »

Medical insurance, medical decisions and inheritance laws were high on our reasons for getting married. We also figured it would could help with international travel in the future, but we still haven't order a copy of the certificate and our tenth anniversary is coming up in a few months, so not sure if it would have mattered vs just claiming to be married if it ever came down to that.

Thanks for the feedback. Peer pressure is hard with wedding rituals, but we will have to remember that we can eschew any tradition if we want.

Re: international travel are you mainly referring to medical emergencies abroad? We do like to travel.

@HPstache Never say never, but I think the chances are slim; I'm not very interested, and he could go either way depending on my preferences.

ixtap

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2023, 04:01:47 PM »

Medical insurance, medical decisions and inheritance laws were high on our reasons for getting married. We also figured it would could help with international travel in the future, but we still haven't order a copy of the certificate and our tenth anniversary is coming up in a few months, so not sure if it would have mattered vs just claiming to be married if it ever came down to that.

Thanks for the feedback. Peer pressure is hard with wedding rituals, but we will have to remember that we can eschew any tradition if we want.

Re: international travel are you mainly referring to medical emergencies abroad? We do like to travel.

@HPstache Never say never, but I think the chances are slim; I'm not very interested, and he could go either way depending on my preferences.

Mostly medical emergencies, but as we take up slow travel, it could also help with long term visas. For instance, DH might be able to wrangle a transfer to a European country for a visa, and it would make a difference to be his spouse, rather than his co-habitor.

Laura33

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2023, 04:08:05 PM »
Like ixtap said:  separate the idea of marriage from "wedding industry."  Seriously.  My mom and stepdad got married in 1975 by a Justice of the Peace who was later busted in a drug raid.  You should see the wedding pic (and yes, I do mean single pic).  They were very happily married until he passed a few years ago.  Honestly, generic wedding industry events are some of the most boring things I've ever been to.  Be you, not what some marketer tells you is you.  I guarantee your friends will thank you for it -- and remember it much more clearly than the big fancy generic ones.

The US is thankfully catching up to the idea of domestic partnerships and non-marriage types of relationships, but we're still behind in general.  The way I would look at it is this:  our legal system was built up around the idea of marriage, and so that is the default relationship that gets protections; we have been adding protections for other kinds of relationships, but we have to think of them first, and no one is going to think of everything (or have the political power to get them all through).  I support putting the status quo in my favor wherever possible -- why try to swim uphill if you don't have to?*

Big things that you haven't mentioned:

-- Laws that address non-marriage partnerships vary widely from state to state.  Every state, OTOH, recognizes marriage between one man and one woman.**  Assuming you are female, marriage would make your relationship automatically recognized everywhere.

-- Social Security allows the lesser-earning spouse to take 50% of the higher-earning spouse's benefit if it is more than what their own work history would allow (and 100% on the higher-earner's death).  I don't know the extent to which that right has been extended to other kinds of partnerships, but it's really really valuable if he's making 5x what you do.

-- Married individuals get certain protections in wills and trusts and such, which often includes things like an automatic share of the assets, and tenancy by the entirety (a special version of joint tenancy that ensures the home goes immediately to the surviving spouse).  Things like 401(k)s also have protections -- a spouse must by law be a beneficiary of IIRC at least 50%, unless you provide something like a notarized affidavit from the spouse waiving this right.  This is the kind of thing that many companies have expanded to partners, but not everyone has, and who says the state you ultimately end up in would even recognize/enforce that if necessary?

-- Marriage gives you more protection if your SO runs up debts in his own name (like, in my state, tenancy by the entirety, which means they can't boot you out of your house unless you both sign onto his debt).   

The tl;dr version is:  there's a reason gay couples have been fighting for marriage equality, and it's not just about the principle of the thing.

I also think there is value in committing yourself to another person in front of witnesses.  You can do it with or without a JP or preacher, but making that vow, in a way that creates a binding commitment, is meaningful. 


*Why yes, I did mix that metaphor intentionally.  Thank you for asking. 

**I am not endorsing this constraint, merely noting the reality of it.

Metalcat

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2023, 04:15:58 PM »
Invest in a session with a good family lawyer and an accountant and figure out exactly what the legal, tax, and financial implications of each are and then make an informed decision.

No matter what, you should figure out wills, power of attorney, etc anyway, so just hammer out all of your legal questions in one go.

It's just smart to inform yourself of the legal options in front of you.

And yeah, the wedding industry has nothing to do with marriage. Also, your parents relationship sucked because it sucked, that also has little to do with marriage.

And yes, divorce can be very ugly, but it's ugly because it's hard to unwind intertwined lives. If you intertwine your life with someone else, that can get complicated.

However, not getting married doesn't necessarily make that simpler unless you keep all of your finances separate and/or have a solid cohabitation agreement. And really, marriage is literally just a legal agreement, which you can customize if you so choose.

So don't get all twisted and there's literally nothing to be cynical about. If you view marriage for what it literally is: a legal agreement, then the only question is if that legal agreement benefits you two more than not signing it.

Whatever marriage means beyond that to you is up to you.

Sibley

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2023, 04:43:16 PM »
Other reasons why it's a advantageous to get married:

One of you ends up in the hospital, and they'll talk to your spouse. They may not talk to your non-married partner, and while you can get paperwork so they will, you have to go to the expense and hassle of getting the paperwork.

In the US, as far as I know, it is not possible to duplicate everything that a marriage gets you. You can do a lot, but not all.

Metalcat

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2023, 05:43:48 PM »
Other reasons why it's a advantageous to get married:

One of you ends up in the hospital, and they'll talk to your spouse. They may not talk to your non-married partner, and while you can get paperwork so they will, you have to go to the expense and hassle of getting the paperwork.

In the US, as far as I know, it is not possible to duplicate everything that a marriage gets you. You can do a lot, but not all.

Yeah, this is why it's so important to understand the laws in your jurisdiction.

Tasse

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2023, 06:11:59 PM »
So admittedly, we were pretty rigid about having fully separate finances before marriage and fully combined after, but that has been a big difference for us so far. Combining finances doesn't HAVE to be connected to marriage, but it's easier when it is (and I was raised that I better have a legal commitment before I gave a man access to my money).

For us, a big part of that is wanting kids, but speaking generally we have found it useful to be able to plan for our shared goals with shared resources. Right now my partner is not working while caregiving for his mom. If we still had separate finances, he would be drawing down his savings, but instead we are both living on my income. (Slightly oversimplified, but you get the gist.) This approach has similarly simplified our FIRE plans.

If it matters, we were married this year after over 11.5 years together.

To address the only one of your specific questions I know much about, You are likely to have huge tax savings from filing jointly - bigger income disparities typically benefit the most here.

Adventine

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2023, 07:01:35 PM »
Having gotten my green card through marriage, absolutely, there are significant advantages to getting married.

If you get married, you can choose to sponsor him for a marriage-based green card, which significantly reduces his employer's leverage on him. Once he gets that GC, he could choose to leave his employer without risking his ability to work and live legally in the US. Very good insurance to have, in case his work situation becomes toxic or he simply wants to pursue other projects that aren't related to his O-1 visa.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2023, 10:57:03 PM »
The wedding industry is all about the big party. Have one or don't, long run it makes almost no difference to whether you'd be happier with a marriage or without one.

A marriage is a pretty strong signal to the other people in your life that you intend for your relationship to endure for the long term. It's not the only way to make that signal, and how much you value that signal is a personal thing, but it is a standard and strong signal of this intention.

Various government benefits are available to married couples that are not available to unmarried couples. The right to sponsor a spouse for a green card seems like a pretty salient benefit in your case, and taxation also will probably come out in favor of getting married. The "marriage penalty" comes up most often when both spouses had pretty equivalent (and high) incomes coming into the marriage, but with your imbalanced incomes it's likely that you would save money overall.

Owning a home or other property together: marriage changes things there too. My now-wife and I bought our first house the year before we officially married, so it can be done. We had it titled as "joint tenancy with right of survivorship." That meant if one of us had died the other would now own the full house, similar to marriage. Differently from marriage, upon death I believe only that half of the property would step up in basis, while if we were married and held the house as community property the entire thing would step up in basis. Also since we weren't married, if we had broken up one of us could have sold our half of the house to some random stranger unilaterally, whereas in a divorce proceeding such an outcome would be unlikely to occur.

All in all a marriage does come with some real benefits, and it also ties your financial/property lives together in a way that can be difficult to disentangle in the event you decide to go your separate ways. Are the tradeoffs worth it? Maybe! It's a deeply personal decision though.

Cassie

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2023, 08:56:14 AM »
I wouldn’t buy property with someone that I wasn’t married to. As others have mentioned there’s benefits in regard to medical issues and for him to get his green card.

AMandM

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2023, 11:36:21 AM »
Another practical difference is that spouses have certain rights to inherit, or are default heir if a person dies intestate. You should both have wills anyway, of course.

lifeandlimb

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2023, 02:10:53 PM »
I support putting the status quo in my favor wherever possible -- why try to swim uphill if you don't have to?*

I love this sentiment, especially the mixed metaphor!


Thanks all for your perspectives and experience.
Some of these responses really crystalized things for me that were a bit psychologically tangled-up before. I appreciate it greatly. I knew I could count on Mustachians to give me the blunt smartness!

Zamboni

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2023, 03:38:14 PM »
Quote
I wouldn’t buy property with someone that I wasn’t married to. As others have mentioned there’s benefits in regard to medical issues and for him to get his green card.

I did buy property with someone I wasn't married to . . . it turned out to be a bad idea. I'm now fully on board with never buying joint property with a partner again unless we are married. Honestly I will probably no co-habitate again unless married.

Another practical difference is that spouses have certain rights to inherit, or are default heir if a person dies intestate. You should both have wills anyway, of course.

This is a really big deal, especially if you own joint property. In some states it can get very tricky who inherits property if one of you dies. If married, the spouse gets the house. But, if unmarried, just because you have the title to a home jointly doesn't mean the survivor gets 100% of the property in every state. Be very careful on that one, and my advice it to get opinions from more than one attorney on it.

Given the length of your relationship and the visa issue, unless you are hesitant for reasons beyond the ones you cited I would recommend marriage.

If you are hesitant for reasons beyond the ones you cited, then trust your instincts. Don't ignore red flags, even if it is just a vague sense of unease about the way you are treated or the security of your relationship! Because, as you know, getting out of a marriage (or even a jointly owned home) is kind of a big deal.

lifeandlimb

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2023, 04:25:30 PM »

I did buy property with someone I wasn't married to . . . it turned out to be a bad idea. I'm now fully on board with never buying joint property with a partner again unless we are married. Honestly I will probably no co-habitate again unless married.

@Zamboni That's interesting. I am curious about this, but understand if you are unwilling to share more. In any case, I'll dig into the property legality details more in near future.

Given the length of your relationship and the visa issue, unless you are hesitant for reasons beyond the ones you cited I would recommend marriage.

If you are hesitant for reasons beyond the ones you cited, then trust your instincts. Don't ignore red flags, even if it is just a vague sense of unease about the way you are treated or the security of your relationship! Because, as you know, getting out of a marriage (or even a jointly owned home) is kind of a big deal.


I'm definitely hyper-wary about red flags in relationships. In one instance I declined living with a long-term partner for years just based on a gut feeling, which turned out to be a good decision.
I love and respect everything about my current relationship; I reckon the hangups are in me. A previous therapist told me I seem to have some trauma from childhood domestic violence (I felt my parents prioritized the idea of marriage and nuclear family over their children's well-being and safety). I'm considering going back to therapy soon.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 03:51:36 PM by lifeandlimb »

jrhampt

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2023, 08:45:52 AM »
I lived with my (now husband) for 8 years or so before we got married by a justice of the peace (skipped the wedding and had a great honeymoon).  As others have said, marriage is primarily about the legal benefits (with the disadvantage that it is harder to dissolve than a cohabitation arrangement), but it doesn't have to be any more or less committed of a relationship.  I was always skeptical of marriage because in my mind it was associated with a male head of household model and a power differential that was not in my favor.  I am happy to say, though, that you do not have to do it this way, and I enjoy an equal partnership with my spouse after 16 years of marriage and 25 years together total.  We have our own last names, bank accounts, and investment accounts but share other resources.  There's never an issue where one of us can't get health insurance through the other's employer.  If a relative of my spouse dies, I can take bereavement leave because we are married.  These are some of the advantages that come with marriage.

Metalcat

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2023, 08:53:41 AM »
I lived with my (now husband) for 8 years or so before we got married by a justice of the peace (skipped the wedding and had a great honeymoon).  As others have said, marriage is primarily about the legal benefits (with the disadvantage that it is harder to dissolve than a cohabitation arrangement), but it doesn't have to be any more or less committed of a relationship.  I was always skeptical of marriage because in my mind it was associated with a male head of household model and a power differential that was not in my favor.  I am happy to say, though, that you do not have to do it this way, and I enjoy an equal partnership with my spouse after 16 years of marriage and 25 years together total.  We have our own last names, bank accounts, and investment accounts but share other resources.  There's never an issue where one of us can't get health insurance through the other's employer.  If a relative of my spouse dies, I can take bereavement leave because we are married.  These are some of the advantages that come with marriage.

Yeah, marriage doesn't have to be at all patriarchal. I come from a matriarchal family where the women typically are the primary breadwinners and hold a distinct majority of power, so it never occurred to me that any marriage I entered into would be patriarchal. In fact, my husband took my last name and brags about doing so.

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2023, 12:17:37 PM »
I'm skeptical of the $wedding industry$ and marriage traditions/expectations,

Avoid the wedding industry if you want nothing to do with them.  They are a plague on marriage, and a particular cynical viewpoint would note that they are the wedding industry, not the marriage industry.  A successful lifetime marriage means they only get a customer once.  Saddling newly weds with a huge pile of debt is a good way to make repeat customers!

As far as marriage expectations, that is between the two of you.

Yet, just about everyone above some minimum age (35 or so?) knows people who weren't married, bought property together, and then it turned into an absolute disaster for one or both parties.  When "I hope it burns down and you can split the insurance" becomes a wish for the cleanest resolution...

Do not buy property with someone you are not married to.  Marriage is no guarantee of success, but a far better prerequisite for success than "We live together and love each other."

tygertygertyger

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2023, 12:29:32 PM »
I see a lot of people saying they'd never buy property without being married... which is just what I did a couple years ago. No regrets yet!

We lived together for six years prior to buying a house together. Neither of us particularly wants to get married, but we certainly expect to spend our lives together. We also acknowledge that it might not work out that way, but that's to be expected... life is long.

We bought on the basis of joint tenancy with the right of survivorship (as someone else mentioned above), so in the event that one of us dies, the house will go to the other. That was quite important to us.

Several years ago when we looked at tax benefits from getting married, it wasn't much... and that was prior to the tax changes which I understand make it even less beneficial. But we are very aware of the need for medical POA, etc, and that's on our list to deal with.

I'm grateful all the time that I have my partner, and I think it's perfectly fine that we not get married... so long as we're clear-eyed about what that means.

Of course, it seems like OP has rational reasons to expect that marriage would provide welcome legal benefits, so that's a lot to consider. Just pitching in from my side of the fence... plenty of green grass all around. 
 

catccc

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2023, 02:46:11 PM »
In Pennsylvania, you don't even need an officiant to get married.  I believe this is rooted in Quaker tradition, but you guys just need to decide you are getting married, do your own "self-uniting" ceremony, and afterwards have two witnesses sign.  We didn't do this, but we also didn't do much more than this.  My "wedding" dress was an ivory tea length j.crew "bridesmaid" dress that was on clearance for $27.  We didn't even have a wedding cake.  Since we didn't have dessert plans, we were able to make a last minute decision to get these awesome cream puffs we'd had earlier in the week (it was a destination wedding).  No reason to ma

FWIW, I am firmly in the combined finances camp once married. I know this is a personal decision, but I think my partner and I do better with a shared vision and a feeling that we should be good stewards of each others future as well as our own.  And as my husband puts it, it also works better this way because if we did otherwise, he would be so poor and I would be so rich.  This is not really true, but I do out earn him by 3.5x, which is why he jokes about it.  We do have our own individual last names. I opted not to change mine, as this is Chinese tradition and also my preference as a down-with-the-patriarchy kinda gal.  (But we also have an informally used combined last name for funsies that our friends and family know us as collectively, so I'd like to pass on that tidbit as a sweet tip.)

Tasse

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2023, 05:56:32 PM »
In Pennsylvania, you don't even need an officiant to get married.  I believe this is rooted in Quaker tradition, but you guys just need to decide you are getting married, do your own "self-uniting" ceremony, and afterwards have two witnesses sign. 

This is how I got married 3 months ago in Colorado. At least here, you are not required to have witnesses or any kind of ceremony; you just need to sign the paper. The most popular "wedding" venue in Colorado is the Starbucks across the street from the courthouse.

We had a wedding, but it was just for fun.

BussoV6

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2023, 08:29:22 AM »
I lived with my (now husband) for 8 years or so before we got married by a justice of the peace (skipped the wedding and had a great honeymoon).  As others have said, marriage is primarily about the legal benefits (with the disadvantage that it is harder to dissolve than a cohabitation arrangement), but it doesn't have to be any more or less committed of a relationship.  I was always skeptical of marriage because in my mind it was associated with a male head of household model and a power differential that was not in my favor.  I am happy to say, though, that you do not have to do it this way, and I enjoy an equal partnership with my spouse after 16 years of marriage and 25 years together total.  We have our own last names, bank accounts, and investment accounts but share other resources.  There's never an issue where one of us can't get health insurance through the other's employer.  If a relative of my spouse dies, I can take bereavement leave because we are married.  These are some of the advantages that come with marriage.

Yeah, marriage doesn't have to be at all patriarchal. I come from a matriarchal family where the women typically are the primary breadwinners and hold a distinct majority of power, so it never occurred to me that any marriage I entered into would be patriarchal. In fact, my husband took my last name and brags about doing so.

Lucky husband, MetalCat is a cool name!

Just Joe

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2023, 10:18:20 AM »
I lived with my (now husband) for 8 years or so before we got married by a justice of the peace (skipped the wedding and had a great honeymoon).  As others have said, marriage is primarily about the legal benefits (with the disadvantage that it is harder to dissolve than a cohabitation arrangement), but it doesn't have to be any more or less committed of a relationship.  I was always skeptical of marriage because in my mind it was associated with a male head of household model and a power differential that was not in my favor.  I am happy to say, though, that you do not have to do it this way, and I enjoy an equal partnership with my spouse after 16 years of marriage and 25 years together total.  We have our own last names, bank accounts, and investment accounts but share other resources.  There's never an issue where one of us can't get health insurance through the other's employer.  If a relative of my spouse dies, I can take bereavement leave because we are married.  These are some of the advantages that come with marriage.

DW and I agree that our wedding was for everyone else more than for us. We'd be happy exchanging our vows around a campfire with a few friends. Our elders really wanted to put on a big show so we did.

We discussed ideas like back yard weddings or outside weddings and every idea was shot down by one of the elders. But what about bathrooms? - was one point made. What about air conditioning? Think of your guests' expectations we were advised. Inviting everyone to come dressed casual (shorts, jeans, etc) was not an option b/c what would people think? ;)

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2023, 10:52:54 AM »
DW and I agree that our wedding was for everyone else more than for us. We'd be happy exchanging our vows around a campfire with a few friends. Our elders really wanted to put on a big show so we did.

So a big bonfire out on a river sandbank!

Quote
We discussed ideas like back yard weddings or outside weddings and every idea was shot down by one of the elders. But what about bathrooms? - was one point made. What about air conditioning? Think of your guests' expectations we were advised. Inviting everyone to come dressed casual (shorts, jeans, etc) was not an option b/c what would people think? ;)

We had a simple answer to those things: "Are you going to pay for them?"  We paid for what we thought valuable, and generally that shut people up as to things they cared about but we didn't.

Weddings need not be huge expensive affairs.  Weddings, as you note, are supposed to be a party, and fun for the guests.  Spend money on a good DJ, and perhaps a partial open bar (you can often have an open bar up to some limit you prepay, then a cash bar).  Host it somewhere fun.  And then tell the wedding industry to get stuffed.

charis

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2023, 10:57:55 AM »
I don’t mind a low scale affair, but I will say that if I was invited to a wedding and there were no bathrooms, that would be pretty upsetting.

Metalcat

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2023, 11:08:09 AM »
I don’t mind a low scale affair, but I will say that if I was invited to a wedding and there were no bathrooms, that would be pretty upsetting.

Yeah, anyone who has ever planned any kind of party, anywhere, with any number of attendees has had to account for bathrooms.

Otherwise, different families are different in terms of how much influence family members have over their life choices. My "elders" are well trained to keep their opinions to themselves unless asked. I don't think anyone offered me a single opinion about my wedding other than those solicited.

lutorm

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2023, 12:11:41 PM »
Having gotten my green card through marriage, absolutely, there are significant advantages to getting married.

If you get married, you can choose to sponsor him for a marriage-based green card, which significantly reduces his employer's leverage on him. Once he gets that GC, he could choose to leave his employer without risking his ability to work and live legally in the US. Very good insurance to have, in case his work situation becomes toxic or he simply wants to pursue other projects that aren't related to his O-1 visa.
I was also going to say this. In many cases it doesn't really matter if you're married or not, but US immigration laws are not one of those. If you ever want to move to another country together, that might also, depending on the country, be very difficult if you're not married.

Finally, if you're planning to have kids, being married or not may affect whether your kids would inherit the citizenship of your partner. That also depends on the specific country.

FLBiker

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2023, 12:17:18 PM »
My 2 cents -- marriage is about the commitment.  For me, marriage means "I will do my absolute best to make this relationship work forever".  So, in a way, it's completely different from cohabitating.  You can live together with a "forever" commitment or not.  Similarly, you could live apart with a "forever" commitment or not.  Same with weddings -- you could make this commitment with or without a wedding.  You could make it with or without the legal paper, but the legal paper does make some things a little easier (e.g. medical visitation / decisions; default inheritance).

lifeandlimb

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2023, 03:50:32 PM »
Some good news if anyone's interested: we got engaged, and have started discussing next steps forward. I'm pleased that my partner is on a similar page as me about about everything so far. And we are also honest and staying open-minded about what a wedding celebration and marriage can look like for us. Looking forward to celebrating however we want, and navigating through good and bad times as a team. Thanks everyone for your input! I found all the feedback interesting and helpful.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 02:51:27 PM by lifeandlimb »

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2023, 03:56:56 PM »
Some good news if anyone's interested: we got engaged last week, and have started discussing next steps forward. I'm pleased that my partner is on a similar page as me about about everything so far. And we are also honest and staying open-minded about what a wedding celebration and marriage can look like for us. Looking forward to celebrating however we want, and navigating through good and bad times as a team. Thanks everyone for your input! I found all the feedback interesting and helpful.

Congratulations!

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2023, 08:40:48 PM »
Some good news if anyone's interested: we got engaged last week, and have started discussing next steps forward. I'm pleased that my partner is on a similar page as me about about everything so far. And we are also honest and staying open-minded about what a wedding celebration and marriage can look like for us. Looking forward to celebrating however we want, and navigating through good and bad times as a team. Thanks everyone for your input! I found all the feedback interesting and helpful.

Woo hoo! Congrats to you both.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2023, 08:24:04 AM »
Congratulations!

I'm late to the party, but here are my pointers (credentials: 18 year anniversary coming up).

1) People who got along great for YEARS can start fighting once married. There are two reasons for this: First, we all carry cultural baggage and expectations about what a spouse is supposed to do, and these can be different than what was expected from a girlfriend/boyfriend. Marriage can switch these expectations without us even being aware we are holding each other to a new standard. Second, the point of marriage is to make it harder to leave the relationship. This can mean a sense of security that your partner is not going to bail on you when the going gets tough, but it can also mean there's no reason to treat each other well every single day like you did before. I.e. you give them attitude and think "what are they going to do, leave?" The lack of daily incentive for kindness can also creep up on us without our realization.

2) Invest in at least a dozen sessions of couples counseling from an accredited, secular professional. The cost - if there is one - is a pittance compared to the potential value. This is where you invest your savings from not participating in the wedding-industrial complex. Even if you have nothing to fight about, a good counselor will uncover and illuminate areas where you both can work to make this transition smooth. Investing these hours and being open and honest with the counselor will send a strong signal of commitment to each other and, more importantly, will break the seal on the idea of getting outside help if things get rough in the future. So many couples spend five figure amounts and hundreds of hours getting divorced when they wouldn't spend a copay (if that) and a few dozen hours on counseling. Seriously, it's a great investment.

3) Now that you're committed, come together with a tentative life plan. Maybe it's FIRE. Maybe it's a life of helping others. Maybe it's seeing the world together. Maybe it's kids and family. The issue is a lot of people spend years in a relationship with the false expectation that their partner shares their life plan, only to find they don't. Be explicit about what you think is valuable in life, and talk this stuff out. Once you have a shared path, acknowledge how no plan survives its first encounter with the enemy! Agree not to be frustrated when the setbacks are encountered, and maybe consider some backup plans that are acceptable.

4) Don't go too fast, but don't go too slow either. Too fast would be assuming your partner is OK with plans or dramatic behavior shifts that you haven't talked through. You simply can't run as fast holding hands with someone else. Expect to have conversations before jumping on career opportunities, making purchases, starting new habits, rearranging things, etc. Too slow would be spending years waiting until the stars align to make big moves, like having kids, moving to a new place, going back to school, etc. The stars never align, but opportunities are lost every single minute. Another way to be too slow is having life objectives that are so far away (e.g. FIRE) that one or both of you frustrated by the lack of immediate rewards, feedback, or visible progress, and this translates to a feeling that the relationship is not achieving its goals. A good mix of short-term and long-term goals can help with this. 

iris lily

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2023, 08:38:54 AM »
Invest in a session with a good family lawyer and an accountant and figure out exactly what the legal, tax, and financial implications of each are and then make an informed decision.

No matter what, you should figure out wills, power of attorney, etc anyway, so just hammer out all of your legal questions in one go.

It's just smart to inform yourself of the legal options in front of you.

And yeah, the wedding industry has nothing to do with marriage. Also, your parents relationship sucked because it sucked, that also has little to do with marriage.

And yes, divorce can be very ugly, but it's ugly because it's hard to unwind intertwined lives. If you intertwine your life with someone else, that can get complicated.

However, not getting married doesn't necessarily make that simpler unless you keep all of your finances separate and/or have a solid cohabitation agreement. And really, marriage is literally just a legal agreement, which you can customize if you so choose.

So don't get all twisted and there's literally nothing to be cynical about. If you view marriage for what it literally is: a legal agreement, then the only question is if that legal agreement benefits you two more than not signing it.

Whatever marriage means beyond that to you is up to you.

This is all wise. I recently watched a divorce attorney  give a spiel on YouTube about the legal contract of marriage and what it entails. It’s just general ideas, so would not being specific to your jurisdiction.
But an example: if you inherit $100,000, if you are married and if you comingle it in a joint account with your spouse, if a divorce follows that money would be considered entirely marital marital property.

 He strongly suggests making a prenup, because the sheer exercise of making a prenup forces you to talk about finances and contingencies in the future. He said that a high percentage of people who came to him to write a prenup, and never followed through with it also got divorced, he think because they were unable to have the hard conversations.

iris lily

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2023, 08:46:03 AM »
Other reasons why it's a advantageous to get married:

One of you ends up in the hospital, and they'll talk to your spouse. They may not talk to your non-married partner, and while you can get paperwork so they will, you have to go to the expense and hassle of getting the paperwork.

In the US, as far as I know, it is not possible to duplicate everything that a marriage gets you. You can do a lot, but not all.

We saw this tragically play out with a young friend of ours with her boyfriend was very seriously injured in a vehicular assault. Only his parents, from whom he was nearly  estranged, could make the medical decisions for him, and they were were money grasping idiots. She had a couple of legal documents, including something about their jointly owned house that convinced the health system to let her in as a healthcare decision maker. As soon as she could, they got married as soon as he was rational, so that she could continue to be the primary health decision-maker.

You didn’t want to take this situation casually.

Ironically, they had purposely not gotten married because of household income considerations in her getting student loans. Yet another consideration of the legal contract of marriage.

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2023, 11:15:55 AM »

Some good news if anyone's interested: we got engaged last week, and have started discussing next steps forward. I'm pleased that my partner is on a similar page as me about about everything so far. And we are also honest and staying open-minded about what a wedding celebration and marriage can look like for us. Looking forward to celebrating however we want, and navigating through good and bad times as a team. Thanks everyone for your input! I found all the feedback interesting and helpful.

Congratulations on getting engaged!

Now for a few unromantic reminders, if you haven't looked into this already.

If you choose to sponsor your fiancé for a marriage-based green card, here is one of the forms you will be obliged to sign: I-864, Affidavit of Support Under Section 213A of the INA

Pay special attention to the instructions, especially the sections about your required income, as well as how long your sponsorship obligations last:

Quote
This affidavit is a contract between a sponsor and the U.S. Government.  Completing and signing Form I-864 makes you the sponsor.  You must show on this affidavit that you have enough income and/or assets to maintain the intending immigrants and the rest of your household at 125 percent of the Federal Poverty Guidelines.  By signing Form I-864, you are agreeing to use your resources to support the intending immigrants named in this affidavit, if it becomes necessary.

The submission of this affidavit may make the sponsored immigrant ineligible for certain Federal, state, or local means-tested public benefits, because an agency that provides means-tested public benefits will consider your resources and assets as available to the sponsored immigrant when determining his or her eligibility for the program.

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How Long Does My Obligation as a Sponsor Continue?

Your obligation to support the immigrants you are sponsoring in this Affidavit of Support will continue until the sponsored immigrant becomes a U.S. citizen, or can be credited with 40 qualifying quarters of work in the United States. Although 40 qualifying quarters of work (credits) generally equates to 10 years of work, in certain cases the work of a spouse or parent adds qualifying quarters.  The Social Security Administration can provide information on how to count qualifying quarters (credits) of work. The obligation also ends if you or the sponsored immigrant dies or if the sponsored immigrant ceases to be a lawful permanent resident.  Divorce does not end the sponsorship obligation.

Millions of sponsors happily sign this form without any worries and have long, loving, stable marriages, but you should be aware of what marriage-based sponsorship means before you sign the I-864.

lifeandlimb

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2023, 01:45:45 PM »
Thanks for the heads-up @Adventine ! Good to know. Will read and research thoroughly.

@ChpBstrd Thanks and noted. I already let fiance know the other day that I'm interested in having a discussion about what expectations we have around husband+wife roles, family relations, etc. We've always been very aligned on everything, but it can't hurt to spell it out. There was a list of discussion questions in a prenup thread here that I am hoping to include in our prep talks, too.

kite

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2023, 03:07:40 PM »
Allow me to add congratulations. 

And this is late since you've already decided. But, what do you know about US v. Windsor case that went before the Supreme Court? 
If Edie Windsor's relationship was marriage, there's no $360,000** tax bill.  If it was cohabitation, the IRS wants their share. 
We know what happened. Roberta Kaplan's argument before SCOTUS prevailed and the relevant section of the Defense of Marraige Act was struck down. There were bigger celebrations after Ogberfell, but Windsor most thrilled my calculating & pragmatic heart. The benefit we shouldn't overlook is the money. 

I'm heterosexual, well into my fourth decade of marriage and was oblivious about this very real consequence of marriage versus cohabitating until I'd heard Roberta Kaplan speak at a conference about the tax implications for Edie Windsor.  Now as I settle another relative's estate and I check the box that reads "Class A" heirs, it again reminds me that it isn't just federal inheritance tax, but the states will also take a share if you aren't family. If you find someone to love like you are family, get married and celebrate in the way that pleases you.


**It's been a while. With inflation that would be even higher now.

lifeandlimb

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2023, 07:13:24 AM »
Allow me to add congratulations. 

And this is late since you've already decided. But, what do you know about US v. Windsor case that went before the Supreme Court? 
If Edie Windsor's relationship was marriage, there's no $360,000** tax bill.  If it was cohabitation, the IRS wants their share. 
We know what happened. Roberta Kaplan's argument before SCOTUS prevailed and the relevant section of the Defense of Marraige Act was struck down. There were bigger celebrations after Ogberfell, but Windsor most thrilled my calculating & pragmatic heart. The benefit we shouldn't overlook is the money. 

I'm heterosexual, well into my fourth decade of marriage and was oblivious about this very real consequence of marriage versus cohabitating until I'd heard Roberta Kaplan speak at a conference about the tax implications for Edie Windsor.  Now as I settle another relative's estate and I check the box that reads "Class A" heirs, it again reminds me that it isn't just federal inheritance tax, but the states will also take a share if you aren't family. If you find someone to love like you are family, get married and celebrate in the way that pleases you.


**It's been a while. With inflation that would be even higher now.

Damn! Another good reason.

oldladystache

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2023, 10:06:33 AM »
My cousin and her partner lived together happily for many years, sharing duties equitably. When they decided to finally get married she assumed everything would go on as before. He had other assumptions.

The morning after the wedding she was surprised to find out that he expected her to take out the trash, since he had always done it. But it was "wife's work" so she had to do it. And the trash wasn't the only thing. Their whole relationship changed, and not for the better.


honeybbq

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2023, 12:42:29 PM »
Cohabiting is sort of roommates that share a bed - not necessarily a verbal nor written nor public commitment. Either party is free to go, stay, or something in between.   I'm sure it can work but it seems to lack substance which is why, traditionally, it has been frowned upon.

LOL, nonsense. You can walk from a marriage just as easily. Many cohabiting partners have joint *everything* (home ownership, bank accounts, TOD for retirement accounts, etc), have children, have powers of attorneys and medical POA with their partners, etc.

You have to have a party in public to be committed to your spouse in your opinion??

honeybbq

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2023, 12:44:19 PM »
Other reasons why it's a advantageous to get married:

One of you ends up in the hospital, and they'll talk to your spouse. They may not talk to your non-married partner, and while you can get paperwork so they will, you have to go to the expense and hassle of getting the paperwork.

In the US, as far as I know, it is not possible to duplicate everything that a marriage gets you. You can do a lot, but not all.

Have you ever had to show your marriage license at a hospital? Not saying you are wrong, but as long as you present as 'spouses' they will not question you.

And all people should have a medical POA anyways with specific instructions for their partners/spouses.

Metalcat

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2023, 02:00:22 PM »
Cohabiting is sort of roommates that share a bed - not necessarily a verbal nor written nor public commitment. Either party is free to go, stay, or something in between.   I'm sure it can work but it seems to lack substance which is why, traditionally, it has been frowned upon.

LOL, nonsense. You can walk from a marriage just as easily. Many cohabiting partners have joint *everything* (home ownership, bank accounts, TOD for retirement accounts, etc), have children, have powers of attorneys and medical POA with their partners, etc.

You have to have a party in public to be committed to your spouse in your opinion??

Yeah, I call total bullshit on that concept.

My mom married 2 men and shared no assets with either and their divorces were super easy. She also had children with 2 different men with whom she purchased homes, stared businesses, and totally commingled finances.

The divorces were much, much easier than the cohabitation breakups, and society took her longer, far more committed relationships more seriously than her legal marriages, which were both kind of ridiculous.

Hell, she ran into one of her ex husband's at the store recently and couldn't figure out where she knew him from.

Different cultures and communities take marriage less seriously than others. Finland, for example, doesn't at all equate marriage with the concept of family, and despite lower rates of marriage, they report much higher rates of relationship satisfaction with a whopping 90% of couples reporting high levels of happiness with their partners.

Also, culturally, blended families are more normal and accepted, and the general definition not family is based more on a collection of people who like to be together as much as filial and legal attachment.

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2023, 06:55:45 AM »
You didn't mention where you live - I'm assuming the US?  I really don't know anything about tax implications in the US as we live in Italy.  For us getting married was a great decision even though we aren't traditional people in any way and we would have gone on cohabiting with kids pretty happily.  I was pregnant (planned) when we tied the knot.  There is no rule that you have to have a bit wedding, invite lots of people and spend lots of money. 

We got married as here in Italy, it's really complicated and bureaucratic for the father to be registered in the birth certificate if not married to the mother.  Also, here we have mandatory inheritance laws where an inheritance is shared out amongst spouse, children and other relatives in certain preset proportions and it's not possible to change this with a will.  We had heard some awful stories about unmarried couples where one partner died and the other partner got nothing. It sounds morbid but I was worried about what would happen if something terrible were to happen to one of us.

We had a tiny wedding at the courthouse with 3 people present.  It was followed by lunch at a restaurant with 30 people.  No photographer, no wedding dress, no engagement ring, no wedding registry.  I bought a dress on sale for $79 a few days before the wedding and had it altered to fit my pregnant tummy.  My husband isn't a suit person but he also bought a nice new outfit and actually wore a tie (!)  My mother bought us a really cute wedding cake and some flowers from a local florist as part of our wedding present.  In all it cost less than $1000 but this was 15 years ago.

Financially and emotionally it's been a great decision.  My husband is the least traditional person ever but he was very emotional during our wedding vows.  Afterwards, we really felt very different - surprising both of us those vows really mean something both to us and to society.  It's also much easier to use the shorthand "my husband" or "my wife" to explain your relationship.  And, like it or not, outside people understand the shorthand more than "my partner" etc.  So when my husband was in hospital recently, I definitely got treated differently than I would have been if I were just the girlfriend.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2023, 07:00:27 AM »
My cousin and her partner lived together happily for many years, sharing duties equitably. When they decided to finally get married she assumed everything would go on as before. He had other assumptions.

The morning after the wedding she was surprised to find out that he expected her to take out the trash, since he had always done it. But it was "wife's work" so she had to do it. And the trash wasn't the only thing. Their whole relationship changed, and not for the better.

Unfortunately, it sounds like your cousin married a sexist jerk with ideas of marriage stuck in the 19th century.  :(  It's weird that there was absolutely no indication of this before they got married.

Just Joe

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2023, 12:04:20 PM »
DW and I agree that our wedding was for everyone else more than for us. We'd be happy exchanging our vows around a campfire with a few friends. Our elders really wanted to put on a big show so we did.

So a big bonfire out on a river sandbank!

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We discussed ideas like back yard weddings or outside weddings and every idea was shot down by one of the elders. But what about bathrooms? - was one point made. What about air conditioning? Think of your guests' expectations we were advised. Inviting everyone to come dressed casual (shorts, jeans, etc) was not an option b/c what would people think? ;)

We had a simple answer to those things: "Are you going to pay for them?"  We paid for what we thought valuable, and generally that shut people up as to things they cared about but we didn't.

Weddings need not be huge expensive affairs.  Weddings, as you note, are supposed to be a party, and fun for the guests.  Spend money on a good DJ, and perhaps a partial open bar (you can often have an open bar up to some limit you prepay, then a cash bar).  Host it somewhere fun.  And then tell the wedding industry to get stuffed.

They did pay for all that. It was not a huge wedding compared to what I've since become aware of. Probably quite MMM actually. DJ for music. Church, reception afterwards at a nice venue downtown. Friend took the pictures.

Congrats OP!!! Wish you a lifetime of happiness!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 12:14:41 PM by Just Joe »

Just Joe

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2023, 12:06:19 PM »
I don’t mind a low scale affair, but I will say that if I was invited to a wedding and there were no bathrooms, that would be pretty upsetting.

At the time I was imagining ~30 minutes for vows. Not very aware back then. Clearly in reality it took longer than that with people coming early and visiting, etc.

Just Joe

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Re: Marriage vs. Cohabiting
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2023, 12:11:57 PM »
Yeah, I call total bullshit on that concept.

My mom married 2 men and shared no assets with either and their divorces were super easy. She also had children with 2 different men with whom she purchased homes, stared businesses, and totally commingled finances.

Was this Canada? How different is it from the USA on these subjects? Assuming the OP is in the USA.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!