Long-term leech in-laws

[Villanelle]

I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)

But on the other hand, giving  $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do?

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No.  No it would not be acceptable to me long term.  And it would be even less acceptable at the point they treated me badly in my own home.  In your shoes, I would be finding three counselors and telling him he had 30 days to choose which one he like best (or let me choose) and then we'd have an appointment within three weeks, and weekly appointments after that for as long as either of us wanted them to continue.  If he wasn't willing to do that, I would know for sure how little value he placed on my needs, and then I'd be calling a lawyer.   

I don't see how people can say that it sounds like you have a good relationship.  He allows other people to treat you terribly in your own home and doesn't stand up for you, even when those people are his responsibility. 

His mom cries on the phone?  Too f-in bad.  She's an adult woman, and what you are requiring of her is in no way unreasonable.  She can rail against it as though it is, but that's on her.  You (well, your DH) needs to accept that what he wants to do isn't cruel or mean or unreasonable, and he needs to hold on to that when she pushes back.  A counselor can help if he's unable to set and maintain that boundary on his own.  If he's not willing to go to a counselor, what you have no is almost certainly your life until these people die.  And to bring a child into a home like this, with disrespect and even physical violence is to teach that child how very little value s/he should place on herself.  Mommy allows people to treat her like crap and doesn't even have dignified treatment in her own home among her own people.  So I guess that's how I can expect to be treated in the future and what I should tolerate from others.  Is that what you want that child to learn? 

[mstache67]

Things CAN change if you put a plan together and stick to it. Whatever the plan is. Your Hub has to get a spine and big boy pants. I know how hard it has to be for him. I am an only child, my Dad died at age 66 and Mom was stubborn and would have starved before asking for help. Fortunately that didn't happen. She managed with her small income and paid off her mortgage after she retired. It was hard after Dad died but she did it. She was so stubborn she had an IRA worth $100K and left it to me! She would die before she touched it. She always said it was for me. I would have preferred she spend it on herself but she made it on her own terms. I just can't fathom this couple that could care less and will take and take and take. Sickening. If at least they would show appreciation it would make all the difference in the world! My Hub sometimes would bring something to Mom's house like lets say a new shovel or salt for her driveway. She would run to the front porch to try to pay him for this stuff. He would tell her to give him a glass of wine as payment. She had a hissy he wouldn't take money! Sometimes she would stuff money into his jacket anyway. She was a tough person! Miss her so much!

Aw your MIL sounds like she was such a sweetheart, I can see why you miss her!

I think that's the thing that upsets me most about this situation is their lack of caring that he's expressed he's NOT okay with it. He's tried to bring up a conversation with them of "Can we put together a plan of what the next 5 or 10 years look like" and his mother starts crying and sobbing "We just want to die."

They are 80 and husband says they're not able to do any of the phone calls or paperwork themselves that something like elderly housing applications entail. I can understand that, it's a huge stack of paperwork! But then he has to get information from his mother for the various applications and she starts crying or saying jokingly "Why don't I just get a job" etc. She'll sporadically send documentation snail mail after the deadline has already been missed, etc. The crying gets my husband off the phone real quick. And then he feels guilty that he's "made her cry."

The issue with cutting out the money he gives that goes to FIL's cigarettes (~300 a month) is that my husband says he's seen his dad get violent with his mom if he's refused a cigarette. (FIL has some degree of dementia.)

Someone suggested senior center help w like a counselor or something, somebody to help shepherd the applications and talk to them about options bc husband is too close to the situation. I'll tell him that idea.

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OK, this comment demands a response.  Forget sending these people a counselor, and forget politely urging them to clean up their act.  You have just described physical domestic abuse - violence - against an elderly woman.

This is a crime.  In fact, in most places, it is ALSO a crime not to report this crime.  If this in fact happened, it needs to be reported to the authorities.  It is abuse.

Also, think about this critically: you have just told us that your husband witnessed a violent felony against his own mother . . . and did nothing. 

If someone punched my mother, I wouldn't be sitting idly by or waiting on some eventual visit from the authorities.  But this isn't about me.

I'm going to be blunt about this: a "good guy" doesn't turn a blind eye towards the physical abuse of his mother.  Or the emotional abuse of her.  Or of his wife.  Or make excuses for the abusers.  Or ignore the abuse. 

These are all giant flashing red flags.  Your husband may not be an intentionally evil guy, but he has been affected by manipulation and abuse and is now willingly enabling it.  Hurt people hurt other people (including by allowing them to be hurt).

Sadly, this didn't surprise me when I read it: emotional abuse often involves physical abuse (and vice versa), especially if it's severe emotional abuse.

You are dealing with very serious issues here.  The best you can do immediately is get yourself therapy - because I guarantee these things have affected you too.  Not least because this isn't all blindingly obvious to you: it should be if you have healthy boundaries that protect you. 

This is far beyond the scope of a money forum.  You're dealing with intense, difficult, challenging emotional and personal issues, including emotional and physical abuse.  It has been years in the making and will take some intervention to unwind.  You need to start down that path.  You keep responding to the simple solutions here, like how you might set aside some amount of money, but these problems go way beyond some simple financial solution and cannot be fixed by one.

You also need to figure out whether you need to report the crime: I would call a lawyer or simply report if required.  (And be aware that when you do, that will have immense consequences emotionally, which is unavoidable.)  You may consider saying nothing, but you do NOT want to be behind that information, you want to be out in front of it: I guarantee that it's even less fun when the authorities call YOU and ask why you ignored domestic abuse when you know this lady was being beaten at home.  You do NOT want that kind of investigation and drama in your life.

Again: you need to seek a professional's help.  Not because anything is wrong with you, but because this situation mandates some professional care.  You're way beyond the scope and aid of this forum.

I shouldn't have said "violent," I think it was like FIL threw an empty paper cigarette pack at a wall and went storming around throwing a tantrum or slamming doors looking for hidden cigarettes basically. I wasn't there, if I ever witnessed any sort of abuse I would consider it my moral duty to report it.

Yes I recognize this mess is beyond the scope of a personal finance forum. I just wanted to know what a general consensus among impartial, financially-educated people is on whether the financial piece of it would be unacceptable to you, even if it's not harming you financially (any more). I expected to be called cheap and miserly (like my sister called me when I tried to talk about it a long time ago) but you all have agreed with me that it is totally unacceptable.

This has given me lots of new perspectives and reassurance that I'm not a cold asshole, and I will definitely seek professional counseling for me/husband together, and suggest him/parents together although that is geographically difficult. I've told y'all more details than I've shared with anyone IRL, but the consensus IRL relationships is that I'm a cold asshole and he is too if we cut off two 80 year olds no matter how awfully they treat me or us. He met with an elder care financial advisor alone once before we were married who said, "Wow I hope my kids don't do this to me."

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[mstache67]

I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)

But on the other hand, giving  $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do?

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No.  No it would not be acceptable to me long term.  And it would be even less acceptable at the point they treated me badly in my own home.  In your shoes, I would be finding three counselors and telling him he had 30 days to choose which one he like best (or let me choose) and then we'd have an appointment within three weeks, and weekly appointments after that for as long as either of us wanted them to continue.  If he wasn't willing to do that, I would know for sure how little value he placed on my needs, and then I'd be calling a lawyer.   

I don't see how people can say that it sounds like you have a good relationship.  He allows other people to treat you terribly in your own home and doesn't stand up for you, even when those people are his responsibility. 

His mom cries on the phone?  Too f-in bad.  She's an adult woman, and what you are requiring of her is in no way unreasonable.  She can rail against it as though it is, but that's on her.  You (well, your DH) needs to accept that what he wants to do isn't cruel or mean or unreasonable, and he needs to hold on to that when she pushes back.  A counselor can help if he's unable to set and maintain that boundary on his own.  If he's not willing to go to a counselor, what you have no is almost certainly your life until these people die.  And to bring a child into a home like this, with disrespect and even physical violence is to teach that child how very little value s/he should place on herself.  Mommy allows people to treat her like crap and doesn't even have dignified treatment in her own home among her own people.  So I guess that's how I can expect to be treated in the future and what I should tolerate from others.  Is that what you want that child to learn?

I was thinking traditional counselor for me/him and financially-minded counselor for him alone or him/parents (not sure what this type of counselor is actually called). He voluntarily offered help with a couple bills years and years ago, and somehow it evolved into this "you must pay all bills and xxxx fixed cash per month on the first of the month." (Yes it is actually "due" the first of the month or she calls husband repeatedly. She doesn't know I'm the one actually paying it because he doesn't care to handle any financial day to day stuff.)

He had an expensive divorce from a spendypants he caught cheating (0 assets to divide, but he volunteered 100k a year alimony for 5 years and took all the debt she racked up) about 12 years ago and moved in with the parents for like a year, but MIL told me "We took him in." Like she was doing him charity. That is when it got totally screwy because she got used to having a big income to play with, eat out or get delivery every night, shopping, spa, an errand boy etc...and no evil daughter in law (me) saying WTF dude you're broke.

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[Playing with Fire UK]

This is a tough one.

How is your relationship otherwise? How often have you spoken about this in the last couple of years? Did he take your response to that awful Christmas seriously? Did you follow up on it or just say it the once? How has your relationship dealt with other issues when you have different opinions or conflicting values?

How are your finances? Do you work? Do you combine all your finances? Do you have any of your own accounts or savings?

How much are your household expenses and how much are the in-law household expenses? Is the money causing you hardship or is the issue that you are giving favours and spending time with awful, rude, ungrateful people?

I sympathise, this is a shitty situation that you are in. If you want to commiserate you can check out my tale of in-law woe here.

This seems like a relationship problem rather than a money problem. I prescribe some work on boundaries with the in-laws and serious conversations with the husband and a therapist. Captain Awkward is my go-to resource for useful scripts for setting boundaries with people who are awful to you.

Best of luck.

Thank you. The link to your story didn't work on my phone, I will try it on the computer when I get home.

Otherwise, the relationship is great. He's my best friend, and I really don't want to get a divorce.

It's a journal so you'd need to be logged in, could that be it?

I'm glad the relationship is working for you. I would work on explaining the effect that his choices are having on you. He is choosing to prioritise many people over you, and not calling them when they are awful to you.

===========================

The money situation with your in-laws isn't great, but it sounds like you can afford it financially. It's ugly, it wouldn't work for me, but maybe it is actually low down on the line of things to be sorting out. The siblings I'd be cracking down on.

I also think it would be perfectly reasonable to not give his parents any more money. It's not a requirement. You are not a terrible person if you don't give a huge amount of money to people who are terrible custodians of your hard-earned resources. They are going out of their way to sabotage their own lives, they could spend every penny you have and more, this is a black hole of take-take-take that will never be full.

===========================

Remember, you don't need to solve their problems or answer all your questions. You need to communicate the decision. Repeat as necessary. Don't justify, argue, defend or explain. Just communicate the decision. "We won't be giving siblings money"; "if you are rude to mstache67 we will leave"; "We will pay your bills but we will not give you cash". Whatever it is.

The phrase "Mmmmmmm, and what are you planning to do about that" is a great answer to "I don't have any money to ...". You don't need to fix someone else's problem.

===========================

I'm strongly and wildly against moving the in-laws any closer to you. No cottage, no moving in, no coming any closer.

===========================

The tears are just another weapon or tool to get what they want. At the moment they are Kryptonite to your husband. It is possible to get back from this place.

[ooeei]

This has given me lots of new perspectives and reassurance that I'm not a cold asshole, and I will definitely seek professional counseling for me/husband together, and suggest him/parents together although that is geographically difficult. I've told y'all more details than I've shared with anyone IRL, but the consensus IRL relationships is that I'm a cold asshole and he is too if we cut off two 80 year olds no matter how awfully they treat me or us. He met with an elder care financial advisor alone once before we were married who said, "Wow I hope my kids don't do this to me."

That often happens with abusive or shitty families, because most people don't have abusive or shitty families. Often it's uncomfortable to talk about the details, so people assume you have a reasonably good family like they do. All the people you talk to hear is "His mom and dad are 80, but we really want to save that extra 5% of our income so we're gonna let them get evicted because occasionally his mother isn't super nice to me."

In reality it's more like "His mom and dad are constantly complete assholes to us, waste money on cigarettes and lottery tickets, smoke the cigarettes in our home against our direct instruction, make no effort to get public benefits which they qualify for, and make me cry most holidays and deride me for being Jewish, so I don't really want to give them $30,000 a year as a reward for that behavior anymore since they've already squandered the $XXX,XXX we've given them over the years." Some people will still think you should do it because you can afford it, and those people are either incredibly stupid and pushovers, or are still looking at it as if it's their nice parents and this is all an old age dementia thing, which it's not.

All of that is pretty uncomfortable to tell a stranger, so you just have to live with the responses you're getting or stop talking about it. Really the only reason to talk about it is to ask for advice, and asking for advice without giving all of the information is a bad idea.  The devil is in the details with this stuff, and most people just don't have a frame of reference for shitty families and can't wrap their head around how it works. I think if you're worried about what other people think, try to either minimize discussion of it, or if they do talk badly about you just let them know how much you have already spent on the parents (tally that shit up), and that they are extremely mean and wasteful and ungrateful so you're donating to a worthy charity instead. "Yeah well we've already given them $XXX,XXX over the years and they're still complete assholes to us and waste everything we give them, so we figured the money would be better used by X charity where the people actually need it.

If a financial advisor told me he hopes his kids don't treat him that way, I'd be tempted to say "If you treat your kids the way they do there's a good chance it'll happen. Goodbye." and then walk right out of his office to take my business elsewhere.

[Roadrunner53]

Talk to the Senior Center in the town your In Laws live in and if need be, make an appointment to meet up with them.

Tell them your In Laws need senior housing, discuss income so they can determine if they are eligible. If so, and if they steer you to some apartments, take some time off (you and Hub) go there and look at some of them and find the best that you can.

In the mean time find out all the things they are eligible for. Meals on wheels, Food Stamps (Snap), subsidized housing costs, some states will help with paying Part B Medicare, transportation to shopping, doctors and to Senior Center for activities. Some senior centers provide transportation for free or for maybe $2 per trip. In my town there are two housing complexes for seniors. The senior center bus picks up the seniors every day to different grocery stores and for doctor appointments.

I would get all this on paper. One page for each benefit.

(1)  Such as Meals on Wheels: costs, how many days per week they will deliver, choices.
(2)  Transportation by senior center: where they take the seniors, days, times, costs, etc.
(3)  Food Stamps (Snap): How much per month. Make suggestions on what foods they should buy with that money such as canned tuna, eggs, milk, beans, cheese, hamburger, etc. (WIC has suggested lists of foods for people in need).
(4)  Senior centers also provides low cost lunches that could be part of the lists of things. Get the Senior Center Newsletter to show them.
(5)  Senior centers provide some social activities and maybe they need to get out to stop their whining.
(6)  Contact a realtor to see about selling the house and if they will walk away with anything or not.
(7)  Put together a final tally sheet to show the savings with no more real estate taxes, mortgage payments and lowered costs of housing, food, transportation and house insurance.
(8)  Finally, make an appointment to show them a senior unit that you have already looked at and think is nice.

You know they are not going to cooperate but if you put together a formal plan on paper showing the benefits and savings, by some chance they might come around. Especially when you tell them the buck is stopping on the current lifestyle. Also, maybe you could pay some of their expenses but it might be a lot less with this new lifestyle. (NO cigs or lottos). Your Hub has to get on board with this. Get most of this information together to present to your Hub. Also, if they do get on board with this new living arrangement, I would NOT hand them cash. If they need money ask what it is for and ask to see the bill and tell them you will pay it FOR them. There have been enough comments on what to do. Now it is up to you and your Hub to start working on a plan. I do wish you luck. It is a terrible thing to be held hostage.



Your Hub has to get on board with this and speak up and tell them

[Sibley]

OP, comment on the dementia. That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Depending on the type of dementia and the stage, violence is absolutely possible - physical, verbal, sexual, all of it. So are all sorts of other problems. At some point, you're going to have to get them into some sort of situation where he can be cared for. Dementia can turn a perfectly lovely, boundary respecting person into a monster, do the opposite, and everything in between.

[mstache67]

OP, comment on the dementia. That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Depending on the type of dementia and the stage, violence is absolutely possible - physical, verbal, sexual, all of it. So are all sorts of other problems. At some point, you're going to have to get them into some sort of situation where he can be cared for. Dementia can turn a perfectly lovely, boundary respecting person into a monster, do the opposite, and everything in between.

Yes I have no clue why MIL wouldn't want to move into senior housing just to get some full time help and a close-by support network..FIL has fallen a couple times because their house has stairs and he uses a cane, was caught disconnecting a smoke detector in the bank so he could smoke while she was talking to a teller, etc. She seems to enjoy complaining about it to my husband on the phone, but staunchly won't move him anywhere with more advanced care by himself. Says "he's going to die soon. All your relatives die around [insert upcoming holiday]. Let him alone." So she basically has to keep an eye on him 24/7 and is homebound except for groceries, post office, etc. They need to sit down with someone experienced in these issues.

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[mstache67]

This has given me lots of new perspectives and reassurance that I'm not a cold asshole, and I will definitely seek professional counseling for me/husband together, and suggest him/parents together although that is geographically difficult. I've told y'all more details than I've shared with anyone IRL, but the consensus IRL relationships is that I'm a cold asshole and he is too if we cut off two 80 year olds no matter how awfully they treat me or us. He met with an elder care financial advisor alone once before we were married who said, "Wow I hope my kids don't do this to me."

That often happens with abusive or shitty families, because most people don't have abusive or shitty families. Often it's uncomfortable to talk about the details, so people assume you have a reasonably good family like they do. All the people you talk to hear is "His mom and dad are 80, but we really want to save that extra 5% of our income so we're gonna let them get evicted because occasionally his mother isn't super nice to me."

In reality it's more like "His mom and dad are constantly complete assholes to us, waste money on cigarettes and lottery tickets, smoke the cigarettes in our home against our direct instruction, make no effort to get public benefits which they qualify for, and make me cry most holidays and deride me for being Jewish, so I don't really want to give them $30,000 a year as a reward for that behavior anymore since they've already squandered the $XXX,XXX we've given them over the years." Some people will still think you should do it because you can afford it, and those people are either incredibly stupid and pushovers, or are still looking at it as if it's their nice parents and this is all an old age dementia thing, which it's not.

All of that is pretty uncomfortable to tell a stranger, so you just have to live with the responses you're getting or stop talking about it. Really the only reason to talk about it is to ask for advice, and asking for advice without giving all of the information is a bad idea.  The devil is in the details with this stuff, and most people just don't have a frame of reference for shitty families and can't wrap their head around how it works. I think if you're worried about what other people think, try to either minimize discussion of it, or if they do talk badly about you just let them know how much you have already spent on the parents (tally that shit up), and that they are extremely mean and wasteful and ungrateful so you're donating to a worthy charity instead. "Yeah well we've already given them $XXX,XXX over the years and they're still complete assholes to us and waste everything we give them, so we figured the money would be better used by X charity where the people actually need it.

If a financial advisor told me he hopes his kids don't treat him that way, I'd be tempted to say "If you treat your kids the way they do there's a good chance it'll happen. Goodbye." and then walk right out of his office to take my business elsewhere.

To your comment of tallying it up, yeah husband has never done that. Brother in law had a windfall ~10 years ago, paid off 50K of debt for them, they racked it back up. Now BIL is in debt and borrowed rent money from us over the summer. It's a huge cycle and husband has already committed to an absolute NO policy on his brother and sister because he finally got fed up. So now they give each other money. Several years ago husband started getting pissed about giving the parents money, asked his brother to split some of their bills, brother said, "No if I did that I wouldn't be able to give Sister $4000 a month until she finds the right job." These are otherwise very sharp people who somehow think this is how loving families operate. I would guess between husband and his brother they've easily given the parents over a million dollars through the years.

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[mstache67]

Talk to the Senior Center in the town your In Laws live in and if need be, make an appointment to meet up with them.

Tell them your In Laws need senior housing, discuss income so they can determine if they are eligible. If so, and if they steer you to some apartments, take some time off (you and Hub) go there and look at some of them and find the best that you can.

In the mean time find out all the things they are eligible for. Meals on wheels, Food Stamps (Snap), subsidized housing costs, some states will help with paying Part B Medicare, transportation to shopping, doctors and to Senior Center for activities. Some senior centers provide transportation for free or for maybe $2 per trip. In my town there are two housing complexes for seniors. The senior center bus picks up the seniors every day to different grocery stores and for doctor appointments.

I would get all this on paper. One page for each benefit.

(1)  Such as Meals on Wheels: costs, how many days per week they will deliver, choices.
(2)  Transportation by senior center: where they take the seniors, days, times, costs, etc.
(3)  Food Stamps (Snap): How much per month. Make suggestions on what foods they should buy with that money such as canned tuna, eggs, milk, beans, cheese, hamburger, etc. (WIC has suggested lists of foods for people in need).
(4)  Senior centers also provides low cost lunches that could be part of the lists of things. Get the Senior Center Newsletter to show them.
(5)  Senior centers provide some social activities and maybe they need to get out to stop their whining.
(6)  Contact a realtor to see about selling the house and if they will walk away with anything or not.
(7)  Put together a final tally sheet to show the savings with no more real estate taxes, mortgage payments and lowered costs of housing, food, transportation and house insurance.
(8)  Finally, make an appointment to show them a senior unit that you have already looked at and think is nice.

You know they are not going to cooperate but if you put together a formal plan on paper showing the benefits and savings, by some chance they might come around. Especially when you tell them the buck is stopping on the current lifestyle. Also, maybe you could pay some of their expenses but it might be a lot less with this new lifestyle. (NO cigs or lottos). Your Hub has to get on board with this. Get most of this information together to present to your Hub. Also, if they do get on board with this new living arrangement, I would NOT hand them cash. If they need money ask what it is for and ask to see the bill and tell them you will pay it FOR them. There have been enough comments on what to do. Now it is up to you and your Hub to start working on a plan. I do wish you luck. It is a terrible thing to be held hostage.



Your Hub has to get on board with this and speak up and tell them

Would you encourage husband to research and contact all these different resources like he's been doing on the housing (albeit with no results), or me do it myself and present it to him to follow through on? I don't want to stick my nose in any of this and I don't even know most of the parents' relevant info as he does, but he travels a lot and otherwise the administrative stuff falls through the cracks. I asked him about delegating administrative help with applications/phone calls/forms to his siblings who do actually know the relevant info, but he said they don't have time. Massive boundary issues going on, but I will for sure initiate counseling and hope to be able to report back with some progress or improvement.

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[GizmoTX]

Ask DH if he'd like you to run down all the details for him to present; it sounds like it will never get done otherwise. You have the money problem -- the others certainly don't want anything to change.

My MIL needed senior housing at age 90, yet there was a ton of denial going on. Bottom line, she grieved that her way of life had to change, but was fortunately still astute enough to recognize that she could no longer responsibly drive, live alone in a money pit house, & was too far away from family who could help her with errands, social life, etc. Still, her grown children had to take charge of the details, & she was angry at them for several months until she realized that she liked (or accepted) her new life. She lived until 99, & I believe her senior community was a big factor in improving her quality & quantity of years, even with dementia the last 2 years.

You both need to follow the Golden Rule: you who have the gold make the rules.

[mm1970]

I guess the big question I want to know from people is, would this be acceptable to you long term if it's not technically hurting us financially? I'm not a witch, I'd be happy to pay a couple bills monthly, but just the fact that it's 100% of their bills, they have 0 savings/assets to draw on, and they're elderly so could possibly have 15 years left of unknown medical costs and home upkeep if they stay in their underwater house. The bank tried to do a mortgage modification for them last year but they were denied because the actuary said they technically should be able to pay all their bills with only social security. (He was not even told that we help them at all.)

But on the other hand, giving them $30,000 a year out of $600,000 income doesn't prevent us from reaching any of our goals. We live on about 30k a year and save everything else after taxes. Husband comes from the school of, "if you can afford to help family, you do it." He seems to think they'll pass away within 2 or 3 years so what's the point. I have told him there's a good possibility they'll be around 15 more years. What would you do?

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Yes, this is it in a nutshell.  It's the hard part.  I don't have an answer.

"You can help, it's a small amount of money, so help."  I totally see that point.

"They are MOOCHES who will not help themselves!"  Totally another good point.

You have to work this out.  Honestly, if I thought it would work, I'd put a certain $ in an account each year and when it's gone, it's gone.  Sorry mom.  Or, what I've seen done is children buying a house from their parents, or buying a house and putting their parents in it.  So they have a place to live.  My in-laws did this with FILs parents.  When they died/ went into the state home, FIL and MIL sold it.  It was their house.

[NoraLenderbee]

I second (third??) the JustNoMIL And JustNoFamily reddit suggestion, this sounds a lot like some of the things I see posted there. I don't believe your husband is beyond hope, I just think he doesn't realize the gravity of the situation. Y'all need to get on the same page about his parents before anything else can hapen.

This, absolutely. Your husband is in an abusive relationship with his parents and siblings. Since this has been going on most of his life, he has been conditioned to see it as normal. But it is not. Go, go, go to those reddit subs! You (both of you) need to deal with the relationship/abuse issues before you can deal rationally and as a team with the financial issues.

Some things for you two to think about (not to answer here)
DH is afraid his siblings "won't like him" if he stops giving them $. Why does he need so badly to be liked by them? What does *he* get out of this relationship? If they stop "liking" him when he cuts off the money, what kind of "liking" is that?

DH allows his mother to insult and belittle his wife (along with him). Does he realize that? Is it OK to cause pain to his chosen life partner in order to avoid pissing off his mother? Why?

If his mother gets upset when he makes a reasonable suggestion (like senior housing), or sets a reasonable boundary (like a limit on the financial help), does that mean the boundary or suggestion is wrong? Or could it be that his mother is getting upset because he's resisting her UNreasonable demands, and that her tears are manipulation?

There's a saying on RBN: Don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. That's what your DH is doing. He needs to learn that it's OK to say, "Mom, I'll give you a warm coat, but I'm no longer setting myself on fire for you."

[mozar]

As a person with experience with emotionally abusive relationships, the story about hiding the cigarettes,  throwing an empty cigarette carton is violence. So is stomping around. You have to stop making excuses for your inlaws and see the reality.  And if your mother in law felt threatened,  it is reportable. Sadly domestic abuse isn't taken very seriously in the USA but I think we're getting there.

[Roadrunner53]

Talk to the Senior Center in the town your In Laws live in and if need be, make an appointment to meet up with them.

Tell them your In Laws need senior housing, discuss income so they can determine if they are eligible. If so, and if they steer you to some apartments, take some time off (you and Hub) go there and look at some of them and find the best that you can.

In the mean time find out all the things they are eligible for. Meals on wheels, Food Stamps (Snap), subsidized housing costs, some states will help with paying Part B Medicare, transportation to shopping, doctors and to Senior Center for activities. Some senior centers provide transportation for free or for maybe $2 per trip. In my town there are two housing complexes for seniors. The senior center bus picks up the seniors every day to different grocery stores and for doctor appointments.

I would get all this on paper. One page for each benefit.

(1)  Such as Meals on Wheels: costs, how many days per week they will deliver, choices.
(2)  Transportation by senior center: where they take the seniors, days, times, costs, etc.
(3)  Food Stamps (Snap): How much per month. Make suggestions on what foods they should buy with that money such as canned tuna, eggs, milk, beans, cheese, hamburger, etc. (WIC has suggested lists of foods for people in need).
(4)  Senior centers also provides low cost lunches that could be part of the lists of things. Get the Senior Center Newsletter to show them.
(5)  Senior centers provide some social activities and maybe they need to get out to stop their whining.
(6)  Contact a realtor to see about selling the house and if they will walk away with anything or not.
(7)  Put together a final tally sheet to show the savings with no more real estate taxes, mortgage payments and lowered costs of housing, food, transportation and house insurance.
(8)  Finally, make an appointment to show them a senior unit that you have already looked at and think is nice.

You know they are not going to cooperate but if you put together a formal plan on paper showing the benefits and savings, by some chance they might come around. Especially when you tell them the buck is stopping on the current lifestyle. Also, maybe you could pay some of their expenses but it might be a lot less with this new lifestyle. (NO cigs or lottos). Your Hub has to get on board with this. Get most of this information together to present to your Hub. Also, if they do get on board with this new living arrangement, I would NOT hand them cash. If they need money ask what it is for and ask to see the bill and tell them you will pay it FOR them. There have been enough comments on what to do. Now it is up to you and your Hub to start working on a plan. I do wish you luck. It is a terrible thing to be held hostage.



Your Hub has to get on board with this and speak up and tell them

Would you encourage husband to research and contact all these different resources like he's been doing on the housing (albeit with no results), or me do it myself and present it to him to follow through on? I don't want to stick my nose in any of this and I don't even know most of the parents' relevant info as he does, but he travels a lot and otherwise the administrative stuff falls through the cracks. I asked him about delegating administrative help with applications/phone calls/forms to his siblings who do actually know the relevant info, but he said they don't have time. Massive boundary issues going on, but I will for sure initiate counseling and hope to be able to report back with some progress or improvement.

I would suggest you tell your Hub your are going to do research. Ask him if he has details he can tell you such as their income, mortgage, and whatever he can tell you. Tell him you are researching a resolution for his parents. Tell him you know he is busy with business but will need his attention once you find out all the details...as far as you can go. Tell him also, he may need to take time off with you to investigate housing and talking to Senior Center people if that needs to happen. Tell him this is GOING to happen. Make sure he is on the same page and that the ultimate reason you are doing this is to HELP his parents and to reduce their dependence on the both of you. You have to get him involved in this. You can't continue to feel like you are the wicked witch which you are not. Change is hard but you and your Hub have done more than most would do. Time for independence. Does your Hub have some strong points that you can put him in charge of. If he feels involved, he will help move things forward with you. Good LUCK!

[mstache67]

I second (third??) the JustNoMIL And JustNoFamily reddit suggestion, this sounds a lot like some of the things I see posted there. I don't believe your husband is beyond hope, I just think he doesn't realize the gravity of the situation. Y'all need to get on the same page about his parents before anything else can hapen.

This, absolutely. Your husband is in an abusive relationship with his parents and siblings. Since this has been going on most of his life, he has been conditioned to see it as normal. But it is not. Go, go, go to those reddit subs! You (both of you) need to deal with the relationship/abuse issues before you can deal rationally and as a team with the financial issues.

Some things for you two to think about (not to answer here)
DH is afraid his siblings "won't like him" if he stops giving them $. Why does he need so badly to be liked by them? What does *he* get out of this relationship? If they stop "liking" him when he cuts off the money, what kind of "liking" is that?

DH allows his mother to insult and belittle his wife (along with him). Does he realize that? Is it OK to cause pain to his chosen life partner in order to avoid pissing off his mother? Why?

If his mother gets upset when he makes a reasonable suggestion (like senior housing), or sets a reasonable boundary (like a limit on the financial help), does that mean the boundary or suggestion is wrong? Or could it be that his mother is getting upset because he's resisting her UNreasonable demands, and that her tears are manipulation?

There's a saying on RBN: Don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. That's what your DH is doing. He needs to learn that it's OK to say, "Mom, I'll give you a warm coat, but I'm no longer setting myself on fire for you."

Yes I am going to start bringing this up to him this weekend and I will frame it in the context of "You are being manipulated and abused if you're told that basically your entire family will despise you if you stop this financial pattern." I did not think of it in the context that he's actually being abused by all these different people until I wrote about the ex-wife and realized huh that was pretty much the same scenario take-take-take.

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[KCalla]

You are being manipulated and abused if you're told that basically your entire family will despise you if you stop this financial pattern.
___________________
Consider NOT using language like this at all.  This language says th o him: "YOU have a problem, YOU are weak, YOUR family is inferior".   Even if his is all true, he must discover this himself.  It sounds like you value him and your relationship enough that hurting your husband with this kind of dramatic escalation may not truly be your intent.
I read that your brother-in-law is sending 4k a month to their sister.  That's even more than your 30 K a year to the parents. Consider the possibility that your husband and his siblings have complex codependent issues from childhood. As the oldest, it sounds like he may have felt the role of the only responsible adult, even if he was Just a child. 
You (and your husband) have accomplished an incredible amount in the 7 years you have been married! Celebrate that while you carefully begin to address the issues. Another year of 30K is less than the difference between the luxury car and the Chevy Volt. If you feel he would have deserved another luxury car, does he not also deserve the comfort that would come with one more year of parent-wasted expense while you (or both of you) carefully pick your way through this field of land mines.
This is from my own experience:  researching and presenting a report on solutions is as likely to cause more strain between you and more pain for you as it is to help. The odds of solving action may not be high yet. Don't set yourself up
You are smart to be considering counseling. Also consider limiting your "discussion" this weekend to sharing your plans to seek counselling, for yourself, so that you can explore and find tools to manage your own feelings about your unanticipated issues interacting with the family that came along with your decision to joint your and your husband's life together.
Think of a series of nested circles.  Seek counsel and tools and emotional protection for yourself first.  Then for your relationship.  Then after that, for him.  Lastly, and maybe unneeded after the first three are achieved, the family.  This is "retrospective" advice from me.  Had I done it th his way, I would have saved myself frustration and pain. Don't let his family hang as an issue between you. They don't deserve to be that important.  It is my experience that one spouse cannot solve the other's family issues. Find ways to make them irrelevant.  Hopefully your husband will choose to tackle those issues for himself, or find his own ways to make them irrelevant. Emotional eruptions/ultimatums (from stewing on problems) often blindside the other person, they haven't been thinking about it as intensely just prior) 
Even  a unilaterally developed "plan of action" is a no win for you without buy in.
Fix what you can completely control first (you).  Then move on to making this issue irrelevant in your relationship.  It sounds like that is how you achieved so much financially. Why not use the same, successful method. It clear my works for you
Wish I'd figured this out decades ago.

First rule of "holes"::  when you are in one, stop digging.

And

Avoid making demands of others that have little chance of being met. Set it up so the odds are in your favor first, Or Find another way to get what you Want or need. Often involves creating your own solution or reframing the problem.

I wish you both the best.

[albireo13]

Sounds like your husband is struggling with his family's dysfunction and trying get away from it.
Imagine him growing up in that family environment during his early life?    It's actually amazing he seems to be doing well and is not
totally f***ked up.

A thought: 
   How about setting up a Trust fund for his parents, with an independent trustee.   The trust can be set up for reasonable disbursements on a regular basis.
This takes the money management out of your hands and you can demonstrate that you are helping them.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I strongly suggest you and your husband read: Co-dependent No More by Melody Beattie. I also support all the suggestions for therapy. Your income is incredible, financially you’re fine. I get how your husband wants to help. I’m sure he’s been manipulated for so long in this family it’s all normal to him.  You have to do everything in your power to have the best life with him together and make the family of the two of you and anyone you might add to it as the priority.

[fluffmuffin]

One suggestion that I haven't seen posted yet: get a geriatric social worker. My grandmother was a nightmare to my mother for years upon years. After spending some time in the hospital, grandma finally ended up in an assisted living facility with an on-site social worker, and the social worker was an absolute godsend. She could get my grandma to do things my mom never had. At least for my grandma, she cleaned up her act a LOT for the social worker: she would speak respectfully, engage in the process, and listen to her suggestions, as opposed to her interactions with my mom which just always devolved into verbal abuse and/or tears. In your situation, I would outsource as much as possible of of the emotional labor around accessing services, planning, etc. to the social worker.

You definitely have the resources to pay for a private social worker. You may also be able to access one through local senior services.

Good luck. This is a difficult situation and I'll echo the suggestions for therapy for you and your husband.

[civil4life]

Definitely some great ideas being thrown around.  Plenty to ponder.

One thought for talking with your husband.  Try using "I" language.  Instead of focusing on what he should do, take the time to share how the family's actions and his actions are impacting you.

Example

When your mother does X, I feel Y.

I feel like your mother is taking advantage of you.  When she does this I feel hurt that you are being treated that way by your own mother.

Using I language takes away the blaming and accusations.  No one can argue with how you feel.

[mstache67]

Definitely some great ideas being thrown around.  Plenty to ponder.

One thought for talking with your husband.  Try using "I" language.  Instead of focusing on what he should do, take the time to share how the family's actions and his actions are impacting you.

Example

When your mother does X, I feel Y.

I feel like your mother is taking advantage of you.  When she does this I feel hurt that you are being treated that way by your own mother.

Using I language takes away the blaming and accusations.  No one can argue with how you feel.

Yes I had to use the "I" language yesterday on a different issue..my sister asked me to rent her an apartment in her city because she's coming back from living abroad and gave up her lease before she left. I told husband that I nicely told her I wasn't comfortable doing that, and he was like well do it if you want to. I had to say "No I do not want to rent her a place because that is not my responsibility and it would make me feel crummy." We have family in that city who offered for her to stay in their home until she gets settled. She said to me "I knew you'd say no. You know all of my friends' families do whatever they can for each other."

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[debbie does duncan]

This is not about money. It never was.
Improve your lives and start standing up for yourselves. It sounds like your husband will need your help.
https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/31sztq/its_not_about_arguments_its_about_underlying/

[Zamboni]

She said to me "I knew you'd say no. You know all of my friends' families do whatever they can for each other."

Wow! Good job not letting her manipulate you.

Why in the hell would you need to "get her" an apartment? In instances where an apartment has been needed immediately (like, a friend have a home fire while he was at work on a Tuesday and was instantly homeless . . . no fire insurance, either), there were plenty of places that had immediate vacancies.

In that case, he had a bit of trauma-induced paralysis from walking through the ashes, Red Cross showed up and gave him a couple bottles of water and $90 gift card to Walmart to go buy socks and underwear, and in the heat of the moment he was considering taking another abusive loved on up on their "generous offer" to go stay with them . . . an offer which would be analogous to your husband moving in with his parents from what I heard.

Knowing even a small bit of the history there, I was like "clearly that is a bad idea. Let's go check you in at the nearest motel." The next day at work, when he again mentioned "I don't know. I really don't know what else to do. I don't want to go live with them because of all the issues, but what else can I do? I don't have extra money, and I just lost everything I own." The trauma and lack of normal functioning was apparent on his face. So I hopped online, pulled up the Zillow map, and said "Look here: there are ten places in your immediate area that have apartments open. You say rents are a little higher than what you were paying, but I'm sure some of these will be perfect for you and your son. Stay at the motel a couple more nights and go look at some places on Friday when you have time. I can go with you if you want." Guess what, he was thrilled when he looked on Friday and realized he could indeed just move into a nice apartment immediately. He signed a lease, bought a bunch of Craigslist furniture, and voila!

I personally never had to spend more than 2 days looking before having a perfectly nice apartment to live in. Even in one afternoon of looking there is always a place that is just fine. She is having trouble wrapping her head around staying in a hotel for a week while until she can get a lease signed? Actually, if she wasn't acting so immature and entitled . . . and I'm guessing there is a history of this . . . probably you would feel comfortable letting her stay with you a few days until she has found an apartment.

Anyway, good job having a strong spine on that one! Feels good not letting people stomp on the reasonable boundaries.