The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: MS86TO on October 24, 2019, 11:46:55 AM
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I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.
The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.
He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.
My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.
1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.
2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.
3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.
4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.
Other considerations:
- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.
- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a compromise on what I believe.
- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.
- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.
This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.
Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?
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Let's move past doors number one, two and three and see what's in the big box. Oh, it's a big winner. (I'm referring to the old show "Let's make a deal" in case you have no idea what I'm talking about).
And the answer is: Don't move in with him. That is 100% the best thing to do. You get to keep your own apartment and he gets to do whatever the hell he wants to do with his spare money and with his house. It's pretty clear that you're both on pages of completely different books.
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I think Car Jack has the right answer - you two are not ready to move in together.
Personally I think his opening offer is reasonably "fair". The $800 isn't for "his" "groceries, internet and other expenses. It's for "your" share of groceries, internet, other expenses, plus rent. This is $325 less than your current rent alone, not to mention utilities and food costs.
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I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.
The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.
He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.
My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.
1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.
2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.
3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.
4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.
Other considerations:
5- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.
6- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a compromise on what I believe.
7- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.
8- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.
9This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.
Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?
My immediate first thought is, if you can't reconcile this discussion between yourselves, perhaps it is not the right time (or person) to move in together (or with).
1) Are you planning on getting married in 1-2 years? I can understand him not wanting to downgrade from his house.
2) Am I to understand that you feel that $800/mo is unfair because you don't get to own the house, yet you are happy paying $1125/mo plus groceries, internet, and utilities for your apartment (which you also do not own)?
3) He's right. You'd be freeloading at his expense.
4) I wouldn't be comfortable with that either; it does not help with cash flow and it's a significant financial pressure on the future of your relationship.
IMO what you should do is pay a fair market rent for what he would charge a roommate in that situation. You're clearly in a relationship with blended finances, so either of you subsidizing the other is not a good path to go down.
To continue:
5) He needs to stay 3 years in order to get the capital gains exemption on sale. 5 years is generally accepted as the minimum amount of time it's worth buying a house due to the transaction costs in buying/selling. Staying one year and then buying something else is, in all likelihood, a financially catastrophic choice. If you stay in your current apartment and the rent is not raised a penny, you will be paying $67,500 in rent over the next five years, leaving you with 16,500 (plus groceries, internet, utilities) fewer dollars with which to put towards a house.
6) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.
7) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.
8) Perhaps you are not ready either.
9) This goes back to my first thought...perhaps it is not the right time and/or person.
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Drilling down the finances:
The $800 would just be paying for his part of the groceries along with the internet. He spends $700 right now on groceries alone because he eats a lot of meat for his powerlifting goals which requires 5 solid whole meals a day. Any other groceries that I would eat on top of his $700, I would have to pay extra. Right now I probably pay $300-400 for myself.
Also note, his mortgage is $1,200/month.
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I tend to agree that it sounds like you are a long way from being ready to move in together.
Have you proposed paying the middle ground between your $562 and his $800. Yes, you are paying for more space than you need, but you are getting that space none the less.
What do you think he could reasonably charge a roommate?
And given the complicated grocery situation, maybe you need to take that out of the equation, since his bill is much higher than typical. You cold each just buy your own groceries. Though if you are doing that, it kind of just reenforces the point that you may not be ready to be in a cohabitating relationship.
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Drilling down the finances:
The $800 would just be paying for his part of the groceries along with the internet. He spends $700 right now on groceries alone because he eats a lot of meat for his powerlifting goals which requires 5 solid whole meals a day. Any other groceries that I would eat on top of his $700, I would have to pay extra. Right now I probably pay $300-400 for myself.
Also note, his mortgage is $1,200/month.
I am confused. The proposition is that you pay for his groceries and his internet, and then live in the house for free?
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I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.
The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.
He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.
My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.
1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.
2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.
3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.
4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.
Other considerations:
5- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.
6- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a compromise on what I believe.
7- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.
8- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.
9This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.
Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?
My immediate first thought is, if you can't reconcile this discussion between yourselves, perhaps it is not the right time (or person) to move in together (or with).
1) Are you planning on getting married in 1-2 years? I can understand him not wanting to downgrade from his house.
2) Am I to understand that you feel that $800/mo is unfair because you don't get to own the house, yet you are happy paying $1125/mo plus groceries, internet, and utilities for your apartment (which you also do not own)?
3) He's right. You'd be freeloading at his expense.
4) I wouldn't be comfortable with that either; it does not help with cash flow and it's a significant financial pressure on the future of your relationship.
IMO what you should do is pay a fair market rent for what he would charge a roommate in that situation. You're clearly in a relationship with blended finances, so either of you subsidizing the other is not a good path to go down.
To continue:
5) He needs to stay 3 years in order to get the capital gains exemption on sale. 5 years is generally accepted as the minimum amount of time it's worth buying a house due to the transaction costs in buying/selling. Staying one year and then buying something else is, in all likelihood, a financially catastrophic choice. If you stay in your current apartment and the rent is not raised a penny, you will be paying $67,500 in rent over the next five years, leaving you with 16,500 (plus groceries, internet, utilities) fewer dollars with which to put towards a house.
6) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.
7) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.
8) Perhaps you are not ready either.
9) This goes back to my first thought...perhaps it is not the right time and/or person.
JLee:
1. Marriage is possible in the future, as we've discussed. But who knows.
2. The difference is even though I'm renting, I have all the legal rights to the place, as a legal tenant. If I live at his house, he can kick me out anytime, and I have no legal recourse, otherwise. And I've already experienced that. And note, by kicking out, I don't mean because we ended up badly, it's just we were both heartbroken that it's torture to see each other everyday but because the other person owns the place, they have a right to it, and I have to comply. I'm the one who initiated ending the relationships, myself, once I realized there was no future.
And I don't plan to rent for 5 years. Just 1-2 years while I save up money to buy a house.
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Drilling down the finances:
The $800 would just be paying for his part of the groceries along with the internet. He spends $700 right now on groceries alone because he eats a lot of meat for his powerlifting goals which requires 5 solid whole meals a day. Any other groceries that I would eat on top of his $700, I would have to pay extra. Right now I probably pay $300-400 for myself.
Also note, his mortgage is $1,200/month.
I am confused. The proposition is that you pay for his groceries and his internet, and then live in the house for free?
He wants me to pay my fare share of $800, and he thinks that by switching from the thought of me renting from him and him as my landlord, that instead I pay that $800 towards his groceries that I would feel better about it. But at the end of the day, I am required to pay $800/month to live for 5 years at his place.
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I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.
The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.
He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.
My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.
1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.
2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.
3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.
4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.
Other considerations:
5- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.
6- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a compromise on what I believe.
7- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.
8- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.
9This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.
Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?
My immediate first thought is, if you can't reconcile this discussion between yourselves, perhaps it is not the right time (or person) to move in together (or with).
1) Are you planning on getting married in 1-2 years? I can understand him not wanting to downgrade from his house.
2) Am I to understand that you feel that $800/mo is unfair because you don't get to own the house, yet you are happy paying $1125/mo plus groceries, internet, and utilities for your apartment (which you also do not own)?
3) He's right. You'd be freeloading at his expense.
4) I wouldn't be comfortable with that either; it does not help with cash flow and it's a significant financial pressure on the future of your relationship.
IMO what you should do is pay a fair market rent for what he would charge a roommate in that situation. You're clearly in a relationship with blended finances, so either of you subsidizing the other is not a good path to go down.
To continue:
5) He needs to stay 3 years in order to get the capital gains exemption on sale. 5 years is generally accepted as the minimum amount of time it's worth buying a house due to the transaction costs in buying/selling. Staying one year and then buying something else is, in all likelihood, a financially catastrophic choice. If you stay in your current apartment and the rent is not raised a penny, you will be paying $67,500 in rent over the next five years, leaving you with 16,500 (plus groceries, internet, utilities) fewer dollars with which to put towards a house.
6) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.
7) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.
8) Perhaps you are not ready either.
9) This goes back to my first thought...perhaps it is not the right time and/or person.
JLee:
1. Marriage is possible in the future, as we've discussed. But who knows.
2. The difference is even though I'm renting, I have all the legal rights to the place, as a legal tenant. If I live at his house, he can kick me out anytime, and I have no legal recourse, otherwise. And I've already experienced that. And note, by kicking out, I don't mean because we ended up badly, it's just we were both heartbroken that it's torture to see each other everyday but because the other person owns the place, they have a right to it, and I have to comply. I'm the one who initiated ending the relationships, myself, once I realized there was no future.
And I don't plan to rent for 5 years. Just 1-2 years while I save up money to buy a house.
Are you sure about that? I have a rental agreement with my roommates..
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I tend to agree that it sounds like you are a long way from being ready to move in together.
Have you proposed paying the middle ground between your $562 and his $800. Yes, you are paying for more space than you need, but you are getting that space none the less.
What do you think he could reasonably charge a roommate?
And given the complicated grocery situation, maybe you need to take that out of the equation, since his bill is much higher than typical. You cold each just buy your own groceries. Though if you are doing that, it kind of just reenforces the point that you may not be ready to be in a cohabitating relationship.
Renting a room would probably cost $500-$600. He won't budge and hasn't given any alternative options than the flat $800.
Ideally, we'd rent a place or own a place 50/50. My ex and I paid things 50/50 for the first 2 years even though his income was almost twice as much as mine.
I guess my question is, should just consider the money amount and what's fair monetarily?
I lose my own security, independence and control over my living conditions. I'd have to give all that up living under his roof. Is it worth it to pay $800 just so I could be with him and lose all those things that I value?
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I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.
The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.
He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.
My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.
1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.
2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.
3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.
4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.
Other considerations:
5- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.
6- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a compromise on what I believe.
7- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.
8- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.
9This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.
Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?
My immediate first thought is, if you can't reconcile this discussion between yourselves, perhaps it is not the right time (or person) to move in together (or with).
1) Are you planning on getting married in 1-2 years? I can understand him not wanting to downgrade from his house.
2) Am I to understand that you feel that $800/mo is unfair because you don't get to own the house, yet you are happy paying $1125/mo plus groceries, internet, and utilities for your apartment (which you also do not own)?
3) He's right. You'd be freeloading at his expense.
4) I wouldn't be comfortable with that either; it does not help with cash flow and it's a significant financial pressure on the future of your relationship.
IMO what you should do is pay a fair market rent for what he would charge a roommate in that situation. You're clearly in a relationship with blended finances, so either of you subsidizing the other is not a good path to go down.
To continue:
5) He needs to stay 3 years in order to get the capital gains exemption on sale. 5 years is generally accepted as the minimum amount of time it's worth buying a house due to the transaction costs in buying/selling. Staying one year and then buying something else is, in all likelihood, a financially catastrophic choice. If you stay in your current apartment and the rent is not raised a penny, you will be paying $67,500 in rent over the next five years, leaving you with 16,500 (plus groceries, internet, utilities) fewer dollars with which to put towards a house.
6) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.
7) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.
8) Perhaps you are not ready either.
9) This goes back to my first thought...perhaps it is not the right time and/or person.
JLee:
1. Marriage is possible in the future, as we've discussed. But who knows.
2. The difference is even though I'm renting, I have all the legal rights to the place, as a legal tenant. If I live at his house, he can kick me out anytime, and I have no legal recourse, otherwise. And I've already experienced that. And note, by kicking out, I don't mean because we ended up badly, it's just we were both heartbroken that it's torture to see each other everyday but because the other person owns the place, they have a right to it, and I have to comply. I'm the one who initiated ending the relationships, myself, once I realized there was no future.
And I don't plan to rent for 5 years. Just 1-2 years while I save up money to buy a house.
Are you sure about that? I have a rental agreement with my roommates..
Yeah, a rental agreement could be an option. Although it's a bit cold and sterile of an arrangement for a romantic relationship. But it's something to consider anyway.
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You don't trust him enough to take the next step.
Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.
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The reasonableness of his offer is completely separate from the decision to move in together or not. I'd focus on the latter issue before tackling the former. You haven't really described a particularly compelling reason for you to break your own well considered rule against this, and your boyfriend seems to be making decisions that don't align all that well with your ideal timeline of being married and house hunting together in 1-2 years.
What's the rush? Keep separate homes until you're closer to being on the same page.
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Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage.
Don’t move in with him.
Why does his emotional issue trump yours? Why are you the one compromising?
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He sure has a lot of rules and upsides with little risk while you have nothing but downsides and shoulder all of the risk.
And if you can't figure something like this out between the two of you, how do you see this moving towards marriage?
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You don't trust him enough to take the next step.
Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.
I do trust him. And I care for him a lot.
It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best. (I really couldn't care less about how nice or big a place I have and I've realized relationships are more important. ) If I don't do this, it will probably mean the end of our relationship. We've been together 1.5 years and seeing and sleeping over each other's place twice a week, which is not sustainable.
I don't feel confident that it's the smart choice for me mentally and emotionally having that scenario, and I'm opening myself up to a lot of risk. But I guess paying him $800 in rent is worth it to keep him in my life and a chance at having a future with him. I was hoping there was a middle ground where financial and security can meet somewhere in the middle to make this relationship work. I just have to pay that amount, become a tenant of his house, and hope for the best.
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"Most people" is not my interpretation of the comments. I am seeing a lot of negatives.
It's not clear to me why he thinks your paying 2/3 of the mortgage instead of half is fair. You don't REALLY seem to think it's fair, either.
Are you excited about moving in with him? Are you excited about your future together?
I was married when I was very young and my husband at the time was a very strong personality. We divorced after 15 years and two kids. My cautionary tale for you is that I always caved. Whatever he wanted, he got. Quit his job and go to grad school? Yes. Sell our house to do it? Yes. Move halfway across the country for a good job? Yes. It was, as with your situation, always at least pretty close to reasonable. There were always Reasons.
But me letting him dictate the terms was not sustainable. Eventually I checked out emotionally from the marriage and he got restless and this time instead of moving us to a new state he asked for a divorce and I was happy he thought it was his idea. He is now married to a hilarious, strong-willed lady with a lot of tattoos who probably gives him a run for his money and I am married to a guy who listens when I talk.
Maybe I'm off base, but I am getting a whiff of that here. He is dictating the terms of your moving in together--the place, the timeline, the financial arrangement--and you're in love and you want to be with him and it's easier to go along with it. It will make neither of you happy in the long run. Please come to an arrangement that genuinely makes both of you comfortable before you move in, even if it means awkwardly extending your lease.
If you can't do that, better to know now than later, when you are already living there and something comes up that you can't or won't budge on. But if you CAN do that, the payoff for your life together will be huge. Good luck! Please let us know how it goes.
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I very very strongly disagree with the assertion that the $800 is reasonable. @MS86TO, stay far away from this offer and keep renting this apartment!!!
In my view, the key elements here are that you value your own independence, and do not wish to pay more than $525/mo for his desired luxury level.
The first element is sufficient to imply you should simply stay in your apartment. The offer for him to move in by splitting your rent is reasonable. You've been through being at lovers' mercy before. If he cares about you, he can respect that.
In my opinion, the many details of his logic are all red flags from a relationship standpoint. At every step, he values the exact vision that he desires, does not substantively grasp your concerns, and makes only surface concessions when you articulate your views. Because of this, I highly support your wariness of his offer, and advise you not to accept at any price, even if he relents and reduces to $525 at his place. His conditions are far too controlling and you are way too early in the process of learning to set your own boundaries. Just no, no, no.
His $800 offer is only reasonable if marriage is to be based on his desired luxuries, with you contributing money toward them according to your means, without any compensation for risks taken. That's a bad deal for you on both the emotional and practical levels.
I think this is a good courtship conflict because it illuminates issues that will be bigger problems later. At minimum, if this becomes a marriage, you're going to have to draw many lines and stand firm about them while he argues for what he wants. He will still have family and backing, you'll still have no recourse. I doubt that's a good idea, but if it is, he will pursue it while you live gloriously in your own rented castle, unattainable to him...but already attained by you!
Where is his concern for you? All his thoughts are about him until you interrupt by making multiple reasonable offers that he rejects.
I apologize if overstepping the financial piece is going too far here, but since you mention having been a crown ward, forgive me for remarking that it's understandable to seek love, ideally a secure love that your parents were not able to give. But don't assume any love is the love you need. Hold out for love that values you, not controls you; love that appreciates all of your concerns, not love that invites you into a gilded cage where you risk being kicked out.
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It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best.
Most people where? Not here - I don’t see anyone saying you should pay $800.
I know we are only hearing one side of the story, but WHY are you so intent on staying in this relationship if your partner doesn’t seem to be willing to address any of your concerns/desires related to your living situation? At the very least he should be fine with you continuing to rent your own place. What’s not sustainable about sleeping at each other’s place?
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But you'll have greater financial security right now paying $800/month all inclusive (besides your personal food) then you would by continuing to pay $1125/month plus utilities and internet and food. Your current landlord can kick you out with 30 days notice in most case and if you move in with BF and save the difference you'll be able to fund a motel for 30 days while you look for a new place. It seems to me you are expecting your BF to include you in on his house ownership when clearly he is not ready to do that. He doesn't want to rent a smaller place. He bought what HE wanted to buy regardless of your desires. And it doesn't want to include you 8n any ownership or financial obligations yet. Maybe someday he will. Maybe he won't. But either way $800/month all inclusive besides your personal food seems like a rational choice for both of you guys now.
My $1125 rent is all-inclusive. My only other housing-related expense is internet of about $50/month and tenant insurance of $31/month.
The rule here is 60 days notice. I have never been left homeless by a landlord, as I'm the model tenant and have had no issues. (I also decorate my place quite nice, clean and organized, that I increased the value for rent of an old apartment to $300/month more from the viewings to prospective tenants. ) I have, however, been left homeless by past ex-boyfriends, with as little notice as a couple of days to a week notice. I've had to scramble to find and move into an apartment (before airbnb times) or rent an airbnb room with the last one.
He started to buy the 3-bedroom house while we were broken up for a short period. After we got back together, we've had talks about the plan of living there together. He's quite hopeless with home improvement (he hasn't even painted walls before!), home interior design and home shopping. While I'm very experienced on all of those.
And yeah, you're right, he's not ready to go as far as home ownership with me, and maybe that's within his rights as I'm not able to match him financially.
Yeah, at the end of the day $800, is very doable, if I can get over the risks involved.
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You don't trust him enough to take the next step.
Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.
I do trust him. And I care for him a lot.
It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best. (I really couldn't care less about how nice or big a place I have and I've realized relationships are more important. ) If I don't do this, it will probably mean the end of our relationship. We've been together 1.5 years and seeing and sleeping over each other's place twice a week, which is not sustainable.
I don't feel confident that it's the smart choice for me mentally and emotionally having that scenario, and I'm opening myself up to a lot of risk. But I guess paying him $800 in rent is worth it to keep him in my life and a chance at having a future with him. I was hoping there was a middle ground where financial and security can meet somewhere in the middle to make this relationship work. I just have to pay that amount, become a tenant of his house, and hope for the best.
You most certainly do not have to pay that amount and hope for the best. That's prisoner talk / gaslighted trance talk / giving up on yourself. No one is saying you have to do that. Plus, Mustachianism is about taking charge of your life, not letting someone else take control.
If not paying him the $800 ends the relationship, that is probably the best thing that could happen to you.
Staying in your apartment and letting him bend a little after you hold firm IS a middle ground. It's one you TOTALLY have available.
If he's telling you - or you're correctly deducing from his behavior - that that would end the relationship, then the relationship would mean signing up for a highly unfair relationship with all terms set by him, in clear disregard of boundaries you yourself have set. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO THAT.
You may have to face the emotional difficulty of ending the relationship. If you've been through 3 versions of this before, that may be painful. But if you do it while keeping your own apartment, you will be better off than in any previous relationship. That's progress!!
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So he won't even consider budgeting on a matter that is of great importance to you? It's $800, or the relationship dies? You pay $800 to basically purchase having this man in your life?
Yeah, I most certainly don't think you should just suck it up and pay the $800. That's the opposite of what I think you should do, in fact. It's not really even about whether the specific number is reasonable. There are plenty of reasonable ways to decide on what a "reasonable" amount should be. You don't agree with his one, very specific way, and he's not willing to even consider anything else?
That's... not a partnership.
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What others have pointed out. Respect your carefully thought out boundaries. Plus if you are handy and he is not, your painting and so on will add value to a house you have no stake in.
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Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.
But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.
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Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.
But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.
I disagree. It's not that his plan is necessarily UNreasonable, although I still think asking for 2/3 of the mortgage is ballsy. But I would argue that a reasonable partner listens and adapts to the other person's needs, and I do not see evidence of that here.
I wanted to jump in on this because I want the OP to know that she is also reasonable.
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It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best.
Most people where? Not here - I don’t see anyone saying you should pay $800.
I know we are only hearing one side of the story, but WHY are you so intent on staying in this relationship if your partner doesn’t seem to be willing to address any of your concerns/desires related to your living situation? At the very least he should be fine with you continuing to rent your own place. What’s not sustainable about sleeping at each other’s place?
Oh, at least a lot of the first responses were all just talking about the reasonableness of $800.
I am considering a lot of his logic because I wanted to understand and work with where he's coming from too. I've been trying to learn more and about lessons I've learned from here, and other blogs/podcasts about FI and frugality, etc. So I'm not living the ideal way yet, but I'm trying to plan and make changes to get better. (I don't own a car and have started using my bike for groceries, trying to figure out a plan to increase my savings/investments from current 20%, etc.) He's, however, on a different path and plane. He is very frugal himself, and very good at saving money. So he's actually well on his way on his way to FI, without realizing it. But we differ in that, he thinks he paid his dues living frugally for more than a decade and it's now time for him to enjoy a bit of money by getting a nice house, while I'm at a point where I'm trying to save more money. And we also differ, in that for me, saving and investing is important, but not at point of compromising my values or what is important to me, like independence, for example.
His approach to life and finances is very simple, and practical, in a very no-nonsense kind of way. He genuinely thinks this is a good deal for me, considering the math and what I get out of it, and can't understand my problem with it. And it's because he doesn't quite understand my situation or where I'm coming from, because he's never even remotely experienced it. He's never lived with anyone, not even a roommate. He's never been homeless. He's always had parents and family to guide him, back him up, give him hand-outs, etc. So I know he's not coming from a place of bad intentions, but maybe more of ignorance. And it's not something I can blame a person for. And he's excited about the idea of us living together and thinks it will just be perfect and dandy, and I don't think he thinks about any of the risks I worry about.
Yeah, sleeping over each other's house is difficult because of various reasons. I have to travel an hour to get to his place. It's a hassle to pack the bags every time, etc. And we both want to spend more time together.
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Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.
But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.
I disagree. It's not that his plan is necessarily UNreasonable, although I still think asking for 2/3 of the mortgage is ballsy. But I would argue that a reasonable partner listens and adapts to the other person's needs, and I do not see evidence of that here.
I wanted to jump in on this because I want the OP to know that she is also reasonable.
Is it? I don't know what utility costs are there (probably less than here), but water/electricity/gas/internet for my house is about $450/mo, and then obviously I am responsible for maintenance and repair on top of that.
The financial aspect is the least worrying part of this whole situation, IMO.
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I very very strongly disagree with the assertion that the $800 is reasonable. @MS86TO, stay far away from this offer and keep renting this apartment!!!
In my view, the key elements here are that you value your own independence, and do not wish to pay more than $525/mo for his desired luxury level.
The first element is sufficient to imply you should simply stay in your apartment. The offer for him to move in by splitting your rent is reasonable. You've been through being at lovers' mercy before. If he cares about you, he can respect that.
In my opinion, the many details of his logic are all red flags from a relationship standpoint. At every step, he values the exact vision that he desires, does not substantively grasp your concerns, and makes only surface concessions when you articulate your views. Because of this, I highly support your wariness of his offer, and advise you not to accept at any price, even if he relents and reduces to $525 at his place. His conditions are far too controlling and you are way too early in the process of learning to set your own boundaries. Just no, no, no.
His $800 offer is only reasonable if marriage is to be based on his desired luxuries, with you contributing money toward them according to your means, without any compensation for risks taken. That's a bad deal for you on both the emotional and practical levels.
I think this is a good courtship conflict because it illuminates issues that will be bigger problems later. At minimum, if this becomes a marriage, you're going to have to draw many lines and stand firm about them while he argues for what he wants. He will still have family and backing, you'll still have no recourse. I doubt that's a good idea, but if it is, he will pursue it while you live gloriously in your own rented castle, unattainable to him...but already attained by you!
Where is his concern for you? All his thoughts are about him until you interrupt by making multiple reasonable offers that he rejects.
I apologize if overstepping the financial piece is going too far here, but since you mention having been a crown ward, forgive me for remarking that it's understandable to seek love, ideally a secure love that your parents were not able to give. But don't assume any love is the love you need. Hold out for love that values you, not controls you; love that appreciates all of your concerns, not love that invites you into a gilded cage where you risk being kicked out.
You make a lot of sense!
But I guess I'm coming at it with a battle of having love-colored lenses, while minimizing my risks. He doesn't think I have anything to worry about. And that's where we differ.
To your last point about being a crown ward, following my heart and risking things has been my approach to try to fight all the negativity of having this life. My way of fighting this unfortunate situation, is to approach life as if I've never been hurt. It's way easier for me keep a guard up, not trust anyone and just look out for myself. But I see that as letting the situation get to me and be a victim of it.
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***quote "I lose my own security, independence and control over my living conditions. I'd have to give all that up living under his roof. Is it worth it to pay $800 just so I could be with him and lose all those things that I value? "***
What do you value more - security - independence - and control over living conditions ? Or living together with a full time partner ?
Further down the thread you say you have been spending 2 nights a week at each others house for 1.5 years - and "It's not sustainable". Why, Why is it not sustainable ? It gives you the independence / control / and security you crave. I think you need to decide which set of needs you want to fill....
I think $800 is fair for a 1/2 a house plus electricity / water / garbage / sewer / yard / garden / segregated parking, and probably you eating some of " his" food. Painting walls is relatively easy, any doofus should be able to accomplish. Some guys dont care about knick knack corners, and curtains, and inspirational sayings in old barn wood frames. You may be overthinking your design / fix-it skills, compared to what he values. He lives with his Mom currently, he wants a female partner , not another mom.
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And if you can't that's OK. You need to do what makes you comfortable. If it's important enough to you (and you're important enough to him) then you guys may be able to find a compromise that works for both of you. Until then you would be better off keeping your own place. I've been in a similar situation (still am...er..sort of) but for me I felt that being the "renter" with a fix rate all incluvise rent to be extremely freeing.
Yeah, we both care for each other and want to live together. It's just we have a mismatch about the financial aspects and related details about living together.
Maybe it's our different approach. Because for me living in my boyfriend's house while paying him a monthly rent, is the opposite of freeing. It feels more constricting and like I have less rights/power. But I understand that it means something different for you.
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He doesn't think I have anything to worry about. And that's where we differ.
He’s allowed to believe this, and believe in the math that says it’s a good deal. But if you don’t think it’s fair, it is by definition not a fair deal, and he needs to find a place to compromise. It’s not cool for him to dismiss your feelings just because he thinks you’re worried over nothing. Your concerns are valid, whether or not he’s personally experienced the same thing.
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***quote "I lose my own security, independence and control over my living conditions. I'd have to give all that up living under his roof. Is it worth it to pay $800 just so I could be with him and lose all those things that I value? "***
What do you value more - security - independence - and control over living conditions ? Or living together with a full time partner ?
Further down the thread you say you have been spending 2 nights a week at each others house for 1.5 years - and "It's not sustainable". Why, Why is it not sustainable ? It gives you the independence / control / and security you crave. I think you need to decide which set of needs you want to fill....
I think $800 is fair for a 1/2 a house plus electricity / water / garbage / sewer / yard / garden / segregated parking, and probably you eating some of " his" food. Painting walls is relatively easy, any doofus should be able to accomplish. Some guys dont care about knick knack corners, and curtains, and inspirational sayings in old barn wood frames. You may be overthinking your design / fix-it skills, compared to what he values. He lives with his Mom currently, he wants a female partner , not another mom.
I would hope and was trying to figure out a way to have both: live equally with a partner with whom I'll have a loving relationship, while we both have equal risks and stake, considering financials and other aspects.
I guess it's not the end of the world to keep sleeping over each other's houses every week. But there's overhead to it, like travel time, preparing, packing, etc. So for example, he stays over my place Saturday til Sunday so we can spend the two days together, but the weekend is the only time slot and energy I have to do chores/cleaning, and some pampering time for myself. But because he's here then, and he's not here in the other days, I drop everything and just concentrate on him and spending good quality time with him. So even if we're together 1.5 years already, it still feels like we're just perpetually in the "dating" phase still and just experiencing the fun, exciting, romantic stuff, without the real life "together" partnership without progression, if that makes sense.
Well that's the thing, he doesn't care about any of that stuff. All of his furniture are from the 80s, given to him by family, and his place just has the bare minimum to function. He had a non-working clock on the wall for more than 5 years, his wooden floor tiles keep popping out when you walk on them and he just couldn't care less. For me, having a home means making your place a joy to live in everyday, that functions to your values, while balancing costs and quality.
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So you drop everything that would make life easier during the week to have 2 fun days with him when he is at your place. What do the 2 of you do the weekends you are at his place? And really how can you build a deeper relationship when the nitty-gritty is not being addressed? How is he going to react when you want to spend weekend time on chores?
Like La Bibliotecaria Feroz I put my (ex) husband's needs and wants ahead of mine, while he also put his needs and wants ahead of mine. Believe me, the more you put their wants ahead of yours, the more it becomes an expected behaviour.
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I've been happily married for six years. I had a very strong personal belief against moving in with a boyfriend. It was not something I was willing to compromise on. If my now-husband had lived somewhere very inconvenient to me when we were dating, I would have considered moving to a rental that was closer to him, but never would I have considered moving in with him.
I'm aware that lots and lots of people move in together without being married, and it works out great for plenty of them.
However, personally, the idea of living together without being married cluttered things up too much for me emotionally. Too much risk. Too many weird conversations about money. The scenario OP describes here gives me hives.
The only reason I'm chiming in here is not to condemn people for whom the arrangement works, but to validate OP: you don't have to live with a boyfriend just because the dominant cultural narrative is that you live with someone as the step between casual dating and marriage. It's possible to skip that step and be perfectly happy and have a healthy marriage.
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If you have broken up with him before, it is statistically likely you will break up again.
If you have only been seeing each other two days a week and are planning to now be with each other 7 days a week, that is a huge adjustment that will likely end in break up.
You are taking all of the risk by moving. You will be living in his place on his terms. This will either cause you to resent him or cause you to walk on eggshells to keep the relationship good so you won't lose your home.
If he truly loved you, he would not be negotiating so hard. He would be thrilled to have you with him every day and wouldn't worry about a couple hundred dollars. And vice versa.
Will it take you longer to get to work or cost you more to commute to work from his home? If so, resentment will build. There are so many red flags in your posts that I would stay where you are and continue to date until you negotiate a plan that works for both of you - or break up now to avoid more heartbreak and resentment in the future.
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Let's move past doors number one, two and three and see what's in the big box. Oh, it's a big winner. (I'm referring to the old show "Let's make a deal" in case you have no idea what I'm talking about).
And the answer is: Don't move in with him. That is 100% the best thing to do. You get to keep your own apartment and he gets to do whatever the hell he wants to do with his spare money and with his house. It's pretty clear that you're both on pages of completely different books.
Agree! I wouldn’t move in with a guy who wants to charge me anything for rent. That’s a roommate, not a lover imo.
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Let's move past doors number one, two and three and see what's in the big box. Oh, it's a big winner. (I'm referring to the old show "Let's make a deal" in case you have no idea what I'm talking about).
And the answer is: Don't move in with him. That is 100% the best thing to do. You get to keep your own apartment and he gets to do whatever the hell he wants to do with his spare money and with his house. It's pretty clear that you're both on pages of completely different books.
Agree! I wouldn’t move in with a guy who wants to charge me anything for rent. That’s a roommate, not a lover imo.
Would you let a guy move in with you and not contribute to your housing costs?
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I wouldn't let a male partner move in with me for free but I would let a female partner move in for free. Because men make more. If I trusted someone enough to be married to them I would expect that there would be times the either one of us could be unemployed and unable to contribute . For me there's a difference between cohabitation and marriage.
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- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a compromise on what I believe.
- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.
This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.
Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?
What happened to change your decision not to make the same mistake again? Just don't do it. You need to be financially and emotionally smarter than in the past. If he loves you, he loves you, whether or not you change your plans and do what he wants. It doesn't matter if the math works. You mention that you're in a new area and don't have a lot of friends--it might be time to focus on building up a life and a social circle for yourself that includes more than just him. In a healthy relationship, your partner will support you in that. I agree that your post is full of red flags. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but a clueless guy can do a lot of damage too.
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Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.
But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.
I disagree. It's not that his plan is necessarily UNreasonable, although I still think asking for 2/3 of the mortgage is ballsy. But I would argue that a reasonable partner listens and adapts to the other person's needs, and I do not see evidence of that here.
I wanted to jump in on this because I want the OP to know that she is also reasonable.
Is it? I don't know what utility costs are there (probably less than here), but water/electricity/gas/internet for my house is about $450/mo, and then obviously I am responsible for maintenance and repair on top of that.
The financial aspect is the least worrying part of this whole situation, IMO.
I agree. I had a paid off house but I still had expenses. Not only utilities (often much higher with a second person and more kinds with a home compared to an apt) but property taxes, insurances, maintenance and repairs, plus the value of my time to do them. As well as the opportunity cost of having my down payment plus closing costs locked into a house rather than invested. So should I let BF move in for free just because I have no mortgage? I think when those of us say $800/month is reasonable, we are talking from a purely financial standpoint - lower all inclusive rent for OP for a nicer place then she currently has. From a relationship stand the BF is being unreasonable to insist that his plan is the only plan that matters and she can take it or leave it. That attitude would he a major deal breaker for me.
This, 100%.
Is $800 unreasonable? No. Is making zero compromises with a romantic partner unreasonable? YES.
OP, if you think he is just naive and well meaning, I’d consider moving nearer to but not in with him. I’d bet you could find a true roommate situation nearby for $800 (or less, you guessed a roommate might pay him $500-$600 though I assume utilities etc on top of that) to make it convenient enough to stay over frequently but without the stress of being homeless should the relationship end.
FWIW my husband and I were long distance for years, and when I moved to our current city I insisted on getting an apartment. While I was reasonably confident we were heading towards marriage I also didn’t want to go from weekend visits to round-the-clock togetherness, it would have been challenging for both of us. After a few months my apartment got very little use, but it was there and mine had I needed it.
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No, don't do it. You have described a man who is very self centred, and in your initial post gave a very good run down of why he is being unreasonable. He went and bought a house without your input 1.5 years into your relationship. You've described him ignoring things around his house that are broken - it's not mustachian to have a useless clock on the wall for 5 years. He does not sound like he is a person who will pay you the attention that you need to feel safe. Stay put, and if the relationship survives that's great, if not you will find someone better because you won't be left to pick the pieces up while you are homeless again.
If you were my friend telling me this, I'd give you a hug and say that we should go out and have a girls night out this Saturday and put you and your needs back on your own radar.
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Another vote for keeping your nice apartment. I think you're right to be cautious about investing in a home that isn't in some way yours. If not for your own sake, then for the cats. You've said the cats would be a problem if you needed to leave - hard to find a short-term place where you could take them, etc. It's valuable to have a place that your cats are welcome!
On which note, has your guy ever lived with cats? Has he ever lived with cats (or anyone) in his place, that he owns and is looking at as a financial investment? Cats don't pick up after themselves, they shed, they track litter, they puke on things. Often nice new carpets. If they're feeling sick, they may pee too. (I love cats! But they're jerks.) Let your guy work out any new-homeowner, huge-financial-investment issues he has with a renter (and maybe their pets).
The long commute between your places is a hardship - so maybe when your lease is up, look at renting a new nice apartment closer to his new house?
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It seems to me you are speaking different languages.
His perspective
He is focused on the finances. He is confused why you don't want to move in with him and why you are balking at $800, when it's less than you pay now. He's helping you save money AND you'd get to live in a bigger/nicer space, and save time going back and forth between two apartments.
Note: I agree with previous posters that $800 he proposed is a reasonable sum for rent+utilities+internet. I think paying for a portion of "his groceries" on top of yours is super weird, so I just recommend you keep groceries entirely out of the equation (recast it as just rent+utilities+internet even if he says it's groceries too). He definitely has more carrying costs than just his mortgage - there's mortgage+taxes+insurance+repairs/maintenance+utilities (more than you think!)+sweat equity for upkeep (leaves, snow, mowing, etc.). Yes, he is gaining equity in his house - but so are you with saving an extra $375 ($325+internet) a month.
Your perspective
You are focused on the emotions. You have been burnt by past experiences and growing up with no one to fall back on. This has made you extra sensitive to becoming interdependent without assurances he can't give.
While *logically* this move actually gains you more security (set up an agreement so you have renters rights) by saving you money to put aside for an emergency fund or house, it doesn't work for you because moving in is not really about the money. (Although it's understandable that's what he's hearing because you've been focused on explaining why $800 doesn't sound right to you, rather than your overall discomfort with living together.) From what I'm hearing, you're not ready to move in because you see it as a loss of control for you without gaining anything. (If you were ready, you'd be excited to spend more time, perhaps characterize it as "taking your relationship to the next level".)
My perspective
It doesn't sound like you are hearing each other, and if you can't work through these issues, marriage seems far off.
Although I think a message of breaking up if you don't move in is problematic, it really depends on how the message was conveyed. Did he say "If you don't move in, I'll break up with you?" Or did he say something like "This hour drive is too much for me, I want to spend more time with you and I see this as the best way to do it. If you don't want to spend more time with me too, then I don't see our relationship as having a future." Neither one is perfect communication, but they are entirely different messages.
As such, I'm willing to withhold judgment there. Similarly, I'm withholding judgment on whether he's ignored and dismissed your fears about living together (which would be a red flag). I don't know how explicit you've been in your conversations, whether he's been optimistic and supportive about the challenges or dismissive of your fears.
Yes, it can be difficult to move into someone else's place. I did that - and he had been living there for years. I was wary too, after having gotten burnt once before. However, I was willing to do it because I felt our relationship was different than the prior one AND I felt it was less about convenience (as with the first failed one, where I moved in way too early) and more about the next step/headed to engagement. He was willing to make changes such as remove his artwork and put up mine so it felt more like "our" place, but ultimately he chose it, it was largely his furniture, and we weren't going to make changes like repainting a perfectly fine room just so I could say it was ours. Time helped me settled in (and within 4 years we got engaged, renovated, married, and sold it).
So based on my perspective. I think you've gotten hung up on whether the $800 is fair or not, when that's the wrong question. It's about whether you are ready to move in together. Do you want to move in with him? If so, why?
If not, try looking into other options. Can you move closer together so you see each other more often, but maintain your own separate place? One with a roommate so you can save more money? I think once you have a bigger emergency fund you may be less stressed about getting assurances that things will work out that no one can rightfully give. Then you can rearrange your schedules to see each other weeknights, and free up some weekends. And use some of that free time to build a social network that sounds really critical to your emotional health!
On the other hand, if you really wanted to move in there are loads of threads that provide ideas for SOs financial splits on living together in one person's house, if the proposed $ doesn't sound right to you (e.g. fair market rent, fair market rent with a discount for being a gf, split of costs based on respective salaries). Note that you may end up in the same place after running the numbers! You'll need to sort through them, as a lot are how to deal with the moving partner taking on additional unwanted costs (rather than saving money as in your case).
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He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses.
Maybe I missed it later on, but I am uncertain what this flat fee covers.
You said that he intended for the $800 to go towards *his* share of the groceries? But not your? Does that mean it goes toward *his* share of the internet, but not yours?
It is hard for me to know if $800 would feel fair to *me* without knowing exactly what the breakdown of expenses are.
Electricity?
Water?
Gas (if applicable)?
Internet?
Yard care (if he elects to pay someone, does he pay it in full? Or split it? And if he protests, does he say “fine, we don’t hire anyone — but then YOU are responsible?”
Garbage
House repairs / renovations — with a house this can be many : water heater goes out, leaky roof, paint for walls, etc
Cable (does he want this? Do you? )
Groceries — do you just buy yours? Do you split grocery trips 50/50?
HOA fees (if applicable)?
It is really unclear what the $800 is supposed to cover. Especially since you phrased it as covering some of *his* expenses — not your share. Because if it is all inclusive is can seem fair, but if you are paying 2/3 of mortgage but are still responsible for *your* share of everything, it seems wildly unfair.
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I think the reason it is HIS groceries is because she didn’t want to pay “rent”. So his solution was ok we won’t call this rent, you just pay this towards other expenses. So what she will pay is in reality rent plus internet. This is my understanding. So they still need to split utilities and she needs to buy her groceries.
I don’t think $800/mo is unreasonable. It is still savings for you while living in a bigger place. I don’t blame him for not accepting the options you laid out. None of them seem reasonable. Since you are so worried about being homeless, go ahead and do an actual contract. Don’t let your previous relationships overshadow this one. Just be smart about it and do the paperwork to protect yourself.
ETA: i went back and re-read the options. If the $800 includes utilities then option #2 is almost the same thing as what he offered.
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Few things here:
$1200 is just his mortgage note, doesn't include utilities, repairs, internet, water, heat, electric, etc etc.
You absolutely have tenants rights even when there is no lease involved. The second he accepts money from you as a rent payment you have legally entered into a tenant landlord agreement in the eyes of the state and have rights. Google "Tenants rights in my state" and look up what exact rights you would have.
You sound like you don't even want to move in with him. Regardless, if you do you should just pay rent and have that be the end of discussion. You are waaaaaaay overthinking this. You should pay a fair market amount to him for rent and split the utilities and groceries.
Also - why would your relationship end if you dont move in together? That seems ridiculous and childish.
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You will become the housekeeper. He keeps a broken clock on the wall for years? He doesn't know how to keep a house "nice"? You will do it. You will do all of it, and you will not be compensated for it. And you will have even less time for yourself.
You decided not to move in with a partner again. So listen to yourself. Don't do it. There is no rush. It is sustainable if you both want it.
DH & I lived 90 minutes away from each other for the 4 years that we dated, and it was not convenient. We did not live in the same state, much less home, until we were married. It is manageable, if not ideal.
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I wouldn't let a male partner move in with me for free but I would let a female partner move in for free. Because men make more.
?????
<Checks year.... 2019.... >
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I wouldn't let a male partner move in with me for free but I would let a female partner move in for free. Because men make more.
?????
<Checks year.... 2019.... >
Yep, even in 2019.
Women earn just 79 cents for every dollar men make in 2019.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/02/heres-how-much-men-and-women-earn-at-every-age.html
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I wouldn't let a male partner move in with me for free but I would let a female partner move in for free. Because men make more.
?????
<Checks year.... 2019.... >
Yep, even in 2019.
Women earn just 79 cents for every dollar men make in 2019.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/02/heres-how-much-men-and-women-earn-at-every-age.html
It didn't say "on average" and it didn't say according to labor statistics women are underpaid compared to men. It just said (ALL) women make less than (ALL) men which is a) untrue and also implies women are incapable of making more then men, which is offensive.
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I don't feel confident that it's the smart choice for me mentally and emotionally having that scenario, and I'm opening myself up to a lot of risk. But I guess paying him $800 in rent is worth it to keep him in my life and a chance at having a future with him. I was hoping there was a middle ground where financial and security can meet somewhere in the middle to make this relationship work. I just have to pay that amount, become a tenant of his house, and hope for the best.
No. Nonononono. Your first sentence should be the end of the conversation, no ifs, ands, or buts. It doesn't matter a whit what the scenario is, or what anyone else thinks about it. If to you it doesn't feel like a smart choice mentally and emotionally, then you don't do it. Period.
It seems to me that what you want is security. You want to be married. You want to be a part owner. You are not worried about "legal" rights so much, because those you can protect with a lease, just like you have at your current apartment. You are worried about the practical reality: if you dump him, or he dumps you, and you are living together, then you will need/want to find another place to stay ASAP. Because it's still his house.
There's only one thing that will "fix" that fear: don't live together until you're married. And that's even the solution that you came to on your own for your own mental health, before you met this guy, right? So why in the world are you second-guessing yourself now?
Do you have access to a therapist? Because I see a lot of fear and insecurity and unwillingness/inability to voice pretty reasonable fears and thoughts and feelings. If I were dating someone, and he bought a house I didn't want, and then was willing to break up with me if I didn't move in with him, well, that would be a real signal that he's a doink and isn't worth it and I'm wasting my time. So if that's the message he is actually sending, and you aren't immediately turned off and walking the other way, then it seems like you need some help to see your own worth (probably as a very natural consequence of your past trauma). OTOH, if he is acting reasonably and in good faith (as you seem to think he is), then your very strong reaction -- awfulizing "he'll leave me if I don't say yes!" -- suggests a lot of anxiety and insecurity on your part, and either an unwillingness or inability to express your legitimate concerns. Neither one of those alternatives is the basis for a healthy relationship and happy life, either alone or together.
I suggest you sit down with yourself, a therapist, and/or him, and talk about the real issue here. It's not about the $800 -- clearly, because you're paying significantly more than that to rent a place now. It's about your need for permanence and security, and his not being ready yet to feel like he can offer that. You can be ok with the fact that he's not yet ready for that kind of commitment and still not be willing to agree to his "partway" solution that clearly does not address your needs. So brainstorm other options, like the idea of you renting a different place closer to him, if that works. You've clearly broached a lot of ideas so far, but those aren't real solutions, because they're not addressing your underlying need for security. Focus on that -- stick to your guns on living separately until you're both ready to make it permanent, and be open about the fears that drive that need -- and see what creative solutions you can come up with. And if he's still unwilling to negotiate at that point, well, then he's put himself very clearly into "doink" territory.
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OP. I think that $800 is a reasonable cost for your part of the house. Remember that he has the $1200 mortgage plus additional utilities, repairs and other expenses. He also paid a down payment, closing costs and is accepting the risk as well as the reward for a changing market. You could take the $300+ dollars a month you would be saving (which is also not giving you any long term benefit) and put it back to cover any expenses from needing to move quickly.
That is a separate issue from whether you should move in with him. It doesn't sound like you are in a relationship where you are ready to move in together (from the limited amount you posted). Your mental reservations have more to do with how much you trust him and how well you are working together as a couple to solve differences of opinion. Work on that part of the relationship before you decide to live together. Also, I would STRONGLY recommend against buying a house with someone you aren't married to. You don't have as much legal protection and could be creating a huge mess for your future self.
I wouldn't let a male partner move in with me for free but I would let a female partner move in for free. Because men make more.
?????
<Checks year.... 2019.... >
Yep, even in 2019.
Women earn just 79 cents for every dollar men make in 2019.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/02/heres-how-much-men-and-women-earn-at-every-age.html
This seems like are pretty broad brush to paint with. Because "most" men make more it's OK for a woman to be a freeloader but not a man? There are plenty of relationships where the woman makes more. I would argue that both people in a relationship should contribute what makes sense for their situation.
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Let's move past doors number one, two and three and see what's in the big box. Oh, it's a big winner. (I'm referring to the old show "Let's make a deal" in case you have no idea what I'm talking about).
And the answer is: Don't move in with him. That is 100% the best thing to do. You get to keep your own apartment and he gets to do whatever the hell he wants to do with his spare money and with his house. It's pretty clear that you're both on pages of completely different books.
Agree! I wouldn’t move in with a guy who wants to charge me anything for rent. That’s a roommate, not a lover imo.
Would you let a guy move in with you and not contribute to your housing costs?
Yes, of course. There are many variables to consider. Is he a deadbeat person? Is he using me? Do we have shared values and goals? Do I see a future with him/her? If all the important stuff works out, yes I would.
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$800 sounds broadly reasonable.
I'm not sure what you are hung up about on the finance side of things:
a) Seems fair - $1,200 mortgage + $400 of bills split by 2 sounds reasonable.
b) You're marginally better off financially vs staying on your own.
c) You get to live in a better area in a bigger place - fine if you want to ascribe zero value to that. Totally your prerogative.
You can always sit down after a couple of months and say "I don't think this is fair for XYZ reason", he sounds pretty open to ideas and if you have factual running costs its hard not to see him agreeing.
In terms of practicalities, I don't see what you have to lose financially - there's no move in costs (background checks, admin fees, deposits etc.). You'll also save on travel and I'm sure there are plenty of other savings.
Most importantly however, lets just say you "overpay" by $100 a month vs what you think is truly fair. So for $1,200 you'd be finding out if this is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with. That's great value as if you get it wrong then it'll cost you a lot more than that.
As others have pointed out this is more a question of do you want to move in with him rather than the quantum and structure of any rent/bills.
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So you drop everything that would make life easier during the week to have 2 fun days with him when he is at your place. What do the 2 of you do the weekends you are at his place? And really how can you build a deeper relationship when the nitty-gritty is not being addressed? How is he going to react when you want to spend weekend time on chores?
Like La Bibliotecaria Feroz I put my (ex) husband's needs and wants ahead of mine, while he also put his needs and wants ahead of mine. Believe me, the more you put their wants ahead of yours, the more it becomes an expected behaviour.
Yeah, it's not optimal and smartest of me. I do have to rush or postpone those chores, which build up and stress me out. But I'm happy to be spending the time with him and have him enjoy my place too.
When I go over to his place, he does the same thing too, and just focuses on time with me. Although I don't think he does the same amount of work. But he cleans and tidies up his place for when I come over, to impress me, which I do appreciate.
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I've been happily married for six years. I had a very strong personal belief against moving in with a boyfriend. It was not something I was willing to compromise on. If my now-husband had lived somewhere very inconvenient to me when we were dating, I would have considered moving to a rental that was closer to him, but never would I have considered moving in with him.
I'm aware that lots and lots of people move in together without being married, and it works out great for plenty of them.
However, personally, the idea of living together without being married cluttered things up too much for me emotionally. Too much risk. Too many weird conversations about money. The scenario OP describes here gives me hives.
The only reason I'm chiming in here is not to condemn people for whom the arrangement works, but to validate OP: you don't have to live with a boyfriend just because the dominant cultural narrative is that you live with someone as the step between casual dating and marriage. It's possible to skip that step and be perfectly happy and have a healthy marriage.
Yeah, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who thinks that about living in together and marriage.
But I do know it's really unusual these days to believe and follow through on that, because virtually everyone I know do live in together first. And some of them eventually do get married. A lot of people think it's really crazy to just get married without living together first. So there's lots of societal resistance.
From my experience, being a live-in girlfriend, was exactly like being a wife but without any of the legal rights, social status, respect and commitment. With my last ex for example, I gave it my everything, in all the ways, for years. And I thought it was really messed up and wrong that a friend just gets married to her husband that they've been in a 6-month relationship, that they are regarded as more committed, loving and have more respect for their relationship with all the rights. I didn't think that was right. Because for me, when I decide to live with a partner, I give it my all, there's no half-assing it. If I were to get married, I wouldn't be able to do anything more than what I've already done for the person and the relationship.
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I've been happily married for six years. I had a very strong personal belief against moving in with a boyfriend. It was not something I was willing to compromise on. If my now-husband had lived somewhere very inconvenient to me when we were dating, I would have considered moving to a rental that was closer to him, but never would I have considered moving in with him.
I'm aware that lots and lots of people move in together without being married, and it works out great for plenty of them.
However, personally, the idea of living together without being married cluttered things up too much for me emotionally. Too much risk. Too many weird conversations about money. The scenario OP describes here gives me hives.
The only reason I'm chiming in here is not to condemn people for whom the arrangement works, but to validate OP: you don't have to live with a boyfriend just because the dominant cultural narrative is that you live with someone as the step between casual dating and marriage. It's possible to skip that step and be perfectly happy and have a healthy marriage.
Yeah, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who thinks that about living in together and marriage.
But I do know it's really unusual these days to believe and follow through on that, because virtually everyone I know do live in together first. And some of them eventually do get married. A lot of people think it's really crazy to just get married without living together first. So there's lots of societal resistance.
From my experience, being a live-in girlfriend, was exactly like being a wife but without any of the legal rights, social status, respect and commitment. With my last ex for example, I gave it my everything, in all the ways, for years. And I thought it was really messed up and wrong that a friend just gets married to her husband that they've been in a 6-month relationship, that they are regarded as more committed, loving and have more respect for their relationship with all the rights. I didn't think that was right. Because for me, when I decide to live with a partner, I give it my all, there's no half-assing it. If I were to get married, I wouldn't be able to do anything more than what I've already done for the person and the relationship.
If your partner respects you less because you're not married, that's a huge warning flag.
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If you have broken up with him before, it is statistically likely you will break up again.
If you have only been seeing each other two days a week and are planning to now be with each other 7 days a week, that is a huge adjustment that will likely end in break up.
You are taking all of the risk by moving. You will be living in his place on his terms. This will either cause you to resent him or cause you to walk on eggshells to keep the relationship good so you won't lose your home.
If he truly loved you, he would not be negotiating so hard. He would be thrilled to have you with him every day and wouldn't worry about a couple hundred dollars. And vice versa.
Will it take you longer to get to work or cost you more to commute to work from his home? If so, resentment will build. There are so many red flags in your posts that I would stay where you are and continue to date until you negotiate a plan that works for both of you - or break up now to avoid more heartbreak and resentment in the future.
It's possible we would break up again, you never know. But then again, my last ex that we were together for 4 years, never broke up or had fights really, before the final breakup. So having those conflicts or not doesn't necessarily affect the whole relationship.
Yeah, you're right that it would be in his terms though, because it's his house. Which is something that doesn't sit right with me, being an independent person who tries to have an equal egalitarian relationship. That is probably part of the bigger issue with me. I feel resentment that by living in his house, I lose my independence and equal power dynamics with him.
I work from home most of the time, so commuting is not really an issue for me. I'm lucky with that at least.
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I'm getting the feeling that part of this is that you will be living in his house that he chose. There is no partnership feeling there. If you were both leaving other apartments to jointly sign a lease on a shared apartment would you feel different about things?
If that isn't an issue, I can only speak for my own feelings. I would want go be clearly paying rent, with whatever legal protection that gives me for housing. You know, where he and I sign a contract that I am paying rent, and what is included in the rent - heating? Electricity? Internet? 1/2 of each of those? Where I hand him a cheque each month with "rent for November 2019" clearly written in the memo field. A cashed cheque is a receipt. And yes I am cautious that way, I made sure my name was on the first house my husband and I bought, and every one after that.
In a situation where things get iffy, one or the other of you can give notice, you move into a spare bedroom, and have some time to find a new place.
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Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.
But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.
I disagree. It's not that his plan is necessarily UNreasonable, although I still think asking for 2/3 of the mortgage is ballsy. But I would argue that a reasonable partner listens and adapts to the other person's needs, and I do not see evidence of that here.
I wanted to jump in on this because I want the OP to know that she is also reasonable.
Is it? I don't know what utility costs are there (probably less than here), but water/electricity/gas/internet for my house is about $450/mo, and then obviously I am responsible for maintenance and repair on top of that.
The financial aspect is the least worrying part of this whole situation, IMO.
I agree. I had a paid off house but I still had expenses. Not only utilities (often much higher with a second person and more kinds with a home compared to an apt) but property taxes, insurances, maintenance and repairs, plus the value of my time to do them. As well as the opportunity cost of having my down payment plus closing costs locked into a house rather than invested. So should I let BF move in for free just because I have no mortgage? I think when those of us say $800/month is reasonable, we are talking from a purely financial standpoint - lower all inclusive rent for OP for a nicer place then she currently has. From a relationship stand the BF is being unreasonable to insist that his plan is the only plan that matters and she can take it or leave it. That attitude would he a major deal breaker for me.
This, 100%.
Is $800 unreasonable? No. Is making zero compromises with a romantic partner unreasonable? YES.
OP, if you think he is just naive and well meaning, I’d consider moving nearer to but not in with him. I’d bet you could find a true roommate situation nearby for $800 (or less, you guessed a roommate might pay him $500-$600 though I assume utilities etc on top of that) to make it convenient enough to stay over frequently but without the stress of being homeless should the relationship end.
FWIW my husband and I were long distance for years, and when I moved to our current city I insisted on getting an apartment. While I was reasonably confident we were heading towards marriage I also didn’t want to go from weekend visits to round-the-clock togetherness, it would have been challenging for both of us. After a few months my apartment got very little use, but it was there and mine had I needed it.
To have to share a home with someone and just rent a room, would not be something I'd be excited about because I enjoy my privacy and autonomy. But if I were to do that, I would not pay anything more than $500-$600.
Plus it's a bit more difficult having 2 cats. There's not a lot of people that like them. And do I leave my bedroom door open all the time so they can come and go whenever they want? I know the cats are a huge responsibility for me and limit my choices. But I got them from the shelter 8 years ago. They were abandoned by their owners, and I promised that I would always take care of them.
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I don't feel confident that it's the smart choice for me mentally and emotionally having that scenario, and I'm opening myself up to a lot of risk. But I guess paying him $800 in rent is worth it to keep him in my life and a chance at having a future with him. I was hoping there was a middle ground where financial and security can meet somewhere in the middle to make this relationship work. I just have to pay that amount, become a tenant of his house, and hope for the best.
No. Nonononono. Your first sentence should be the end of the conversation, no ifs, ands, or buts. It doesn't matter a whit what the scenario is, or what anyone else thinks about it. If to you it doesn't feel like a smart choice mentally and emotionally, then you don't do it. Period.
It seems to me that what you want is security. You want to be married. You want to be a part owner. You are not worried about "legal" rights so much, because those you can protect with a lease, just like you have at your current apartment. You are worried about the practical reality: if you dump him, or he dumps you, and you are living together, then you will need/want to find another place to stay ASAP. Because it's still his house.
There's only one thing that will "fix" that fear: don't live together until you're married. And that's even the solution that you came to on your own for your own mental health, before you met this guy, right? So why in the world are you second-guessing yourself now?
Do you have access to a therapist? Because I see a lot of fear and insecurity and unwillingness/inability to voice pretty reasonable fears and thoughts and feelings. If I were dating someone, and he bought a house I didn't want, and then was willing to break up with me if I didn't move in with him, well, that would be a real signal that he's a doink and isn't worth it and I'm wasting my time. So if that's the message he is actually sending, and you aren't immediately turned off and walking the other way, then it seems like you need some help to see your own worth (probably as a very natural consequence of your past trauma). OTOH, if he is acting reasonably and in good faith (as you seem to think he is), then your very strong reaction -- awfulizing "he'll leave me if I don't say yes!" -- suggests a lot of anxiety and insecurity on your part, and either an unwillingness or inability to express your legitimate concerns. Neither one of those alternatives is the basis for a healthy relationship and happy life, either alone or together.
I suggest you sit down with yourself, a therapist, and/or him, and talk about the real issue here. It's not about the $800 -- clearly, because you're paying significantly more than that to rent a place now. It's about your need for permanence and security, and his not being ready yet to feel like he can offer that. You can be ok with the fact that he's not yet ready for that kind of commitment and still not be willing to agree to his "partway" solution that clearly does not address your needs. So brainstorm other options, like the idea of you renting a different place closer to him, if that works. You've clearly broached a lot of ideas so far, but those aren't real solutions, because they're not addressing your underlying need for security. Focus on that -- stick to your guns on living separately until you're both ready to make it permanent, and be open about the fears that drive that need -- and see what creative solutions you can come up with. And if he's still unwilling to negotiate at that point, well, then he's put himself very clearly into "doink" territory.
This. So much this.
Learning he bought the house while you were (briefly) not together eases a big concern I had, that he was making huge decisions purely independently without any regard for the future of your relationship. Sounds like he did this when your needs were not a factor, and now the question is how to bring the current situation into congruence with both of your plans and emotional needs. His offer is generally reasonable for two people cohabitating in a house one of them owns but that's not really the underlying problem needing to be addressed.
I really, really wonder how well you both are communicating the emotional sides of this decision. Speaking as a guy, even the best of us can be pretty oblivious to hints and unspoken expectations. There is a huge difference in how his actions can be interpreted depending on how directly your fears and worries about security are being discussed as part of this negotiation. If some professional assistance is needed to facilitate this communication I think it would be worth the cost.
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If you have broken up with him before, it is statistically likely you will break up again.
If you have only been seeing each other two days a week and are planning to now be with each other 7 days a week, that is a huge adjustment that will likely end in break up.
You are taking all of the risk by moving. You will be living in his place on his terms. This will either cause you to resent him or cause you to walk on eggshells to keep the relationship good so you won't lose your home.
If he truly loved you, he would not be negotiating so hard. He would be thrilled to have you with him every day and wouldn't worry about a couple hundred dollars. And vice versa.
Will it take you longer to get to work or cost you more to commute to work from his home? If so, resentment will build. There are so many red flags in your posts that I would stay where you are and continue to date until you negotiate a plan that works for both of you - or break up now to avoid more heartbreak and resentment in the future.
It's possible we would break up again, you never know. But then again, my last ex that we were together for 4 years, never broke up or had fights really, before the final breakup. So having those conflicts or not doesn't necessarily affect the whole relationship.
Yeah, you're right that it would be in his terms though, because it's his house. Which is something that doesn't sit right with me, being an independent person who tries to have an equal egalitarian relationship. That is probably part of the bigger issue with me. I feel resentment that by living in his house, I lose my independence and equal power dynamics with him.
I work from home most of the time, so commuting is not really an issue for me. I'm lucky with that at least.
Is this coming from you or from him?
If it's coming from you, then this is in your head and there's no reason whatsoever for you to have any less independence or "power" just because he owns the house you both pay to live in.
If it's in any way coming from him, then that's a serious problem, as it's not in any way healthy for him to feel like he has some sort of supremacy in a shared home just because his name is on the title.
It's very difficult to tell from your posts which of your insecurities and worries are coming from your own head and which are coming from him, because there seems to be evidence of both, which makes it no surprise that you are confused about what to do.
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- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a compromise on what I believe.
- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.
This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.
Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?
What happened to change your decision not to make the same mistake again? Just don't do it. You need to be financially and emotionally smarter than in the past. If he loves you, he loves you, whether or not you change your plans and do what he wants. It doesn't matter if the math works. You mention that you're in a new area and don't have a lot of friends--it might be time to focus on building up a life and a social circle for yourself that includes more than just him. In a healthy relationship, your partner will support you in that. I agree that your post is full of red flags. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but a clueless guy can do a lot of damage too.
I don't know, I think these days it's very easy for everyone to just resolve to breaking up instead of working on the relationship. Because most people are generally self-sustainable. And that's what I did a lot in the past, I didn't put up with a lot of crap.
I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to compromise, but I do know you have to do that in relationships. There's never going to be the case where you get everything that you want the way you like it with everything in a relationship.
I know having your own life and a social circle is very important as well. It's not easy to make friends being in a new city, but I'm working on that!
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No, don't do it. You have described a man who is very self centred, and in your initial post gave a very good run down of why he is being unreasonable. He went and bought a house without your input 1.5 years into your relationship. You've described him ignoring things around his house that are broken - it's not mustachian to have a useless clock on the wall for 5 years. He does not sound like he is a person who will pay you the attention that you need to feel safe. Stay put, and if the relationship survives that's great, if not you will find someone better because you won't be left to pick the pieces up while you are homeless again.
If you were my friend telling me this, I'd give you a hug and say that we should go out and have a girls night out this Saturday and put you and your needs back on your own radar.
Lol, yeah the broken clock really bugged me. Because everytime I looked at it to check the time and see it was always 11, was really really annoying. I made him buy a proper working clock finally. (At a good price ofcourse.)
Awww, you're so sweet! I appreciate the thought. :-)
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I think there are two issues of "reasonable" at play.
$800 is reasonable. So too is $600 or $900 or $500 plus half of the major utilities. Or $800, with $250 going to an escrow fund that we can't touch individually and that we split if we separate. Or a number of other arrangements.
Refusing to consider any option other than the conclusion he came to on his own is NOT reasonable. Have you clearly and calmly explained to him why it feels so uncomfortable for you? What did he say to that? If in the fact of an explanation of pretty logical feelings (as oxymoronic as that phrase may be), he response is, "okay, but still $800," then he is showing you very, very clearly how little he values your feelings or respects your needs.
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Another vote for keeping your nice apartment. I think you're right to be cautious about investing in a home that isn't in some way yours. If not for your own sake, then for the cats. You've said the cats would be a problem if you needed to leave - hard to find a short-term place where you could take them, etc. It's valuable to have a place that your cats are welcome!
On which note, has your guy ever lived with cats? Has he ever lived with cats (or anyone) in his place, that he owns and is looking at as a financial investment? Cats don't pick up after themselves, they shed, they track litter, they puke on things. Often nice new carpets. If they're feeling sick, they may pee too. (I love cats! But they're jerks.) Let your guy work out any new-homeowner, huge-financial-investment issues he has with a renter (and maybe their pets).
The long commute between your places is a hardship - so maybe when your lease is up, look at renting a new nice apartment closer to his new house?
Yeah, if it was just me, it would definitely be much easier and cheaper to find a place to stay in fast. Cats are a huge huge responsibility! Financially too. As much as I love mine, I wouldn't recommend that responsibility to others. Like travelling with them is a nightmare. There are planes and trains that won't fly them, so the only option is to drive. And plane tickets cost almost as much as human. Also not a lot of short-term stays will accept them.
But he does adore the cats, even though he's never had them before. When he comes over, he's the one who feeds them and gives them treats. And he'll clean the litter box too. But yeah, he freaked out the first time he saw a furball. Which cat-owners know doesn't actually look as cute as it sounds. Lol. Thankfully, they are generally low maintenance and don't have any issues. Their old owner also declawed them (which is really really horrible), but the consequence is that, I don't have anything ruined with their claws.
His new place will be a lot closer to my current place, so the commuting to and from wont' be a big problem. Maybe 30 minutes one way.
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I wouldn't let a male partner move in with me for free but I would let a female partner move in for free. Because men make more. If I trusted someone enough to be married to them I would expect that there would be times the either one of us could be unemployed and unable to contribute . For me there's a difference between cohabitation and marriage.
Wait, what? What year is this? I've made nearly twice what my husband makes every year we've been together. And that's not because he's a deadbeat, I just have a higher paying skillset.
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I have been able to find places to rent even with 2 large dogs (55 lbs and 75 lbs) plus a cat. You can easily find a place with 2 cats. Maybe research the availability of those places so you can put your mind at ease.
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So you drop everything that would make life easier during the week to have 2 fun days with him when he is at your place. What do the 2 of you do the weekends you are at his place? And really how can you build a deeper relationship when the nitty-gritty is not being addressed? How is he going to react when you want to spend weekend time on chores?
Like La Bibliotecaria Feroz I put my (ex) husband's needs and wants ahead of mine, while he also put his needs and wants ahead of mine. Believe me, the more you put their wants ahead of yours, the more it becomes an expected behaviour.
Yeah, it's not optimal and smartest of me. I do have to rush or postpone those chores, which build up and stress me out. But I'm happy to be spending the time with him and have him enjoy my place too.
When I go over to his place, he does the same thing too, and just focuses on time with me. Although I don't think he does the same amount of work. But he cleans and tidies up his place for when I come over, to impress me, which I do appreciate.
You two have been together for 18 months. Currently he is living at mom's so I can't imagine he has so much cleaning to do [ his room ?] . This isn't the 1st months dating. He's not going to leave you because the sink is 1/2 full of dishes, and you are not going to leavehim because he left his pants and underwear on the closet floor.
- I don't get what 's with the excessive cleaning binge and stress buildup before he shows up. He's not running a white glove under your bathroom sink is he ?
- You want some real "quality time" and to see how he'll react when you [ eventually] move in together ? Don't clean / pick up your apartment more than you would for just yourself. Pretend he is on a business trip for a month and won't be coming over and checking the silverware for spots. Then when he shows up, say nonchalantly, " Oh, yeah , well i need to do the dishes, and vacuum, laundry, etc, then we can go out to the park/ game/ etc. . You can play with kitties, or read a magazine, or watch TV, while you wait - or help 'straighten up' and we'll get to the park a bit quicker,while the sun is still shining". How he reacts to your dirty laundry, or willingness to pitch in and help scrub [ or not] will tell you a lot about future relationship.
My wife and I have a decently clean house. It isn't spotless, but you could eat off any counter and not get sick or be grossed out. But she is not a "neat" person with paperwork, or knickknacks, etc.- I am more of a " i want the counters clear, and things put back in their designated spot" kind of person. So i had to compromise. Guess what ? -the few extra pieces of mail, or recipies she's printed out, or empty mason jar, or childs schoolwork / coloring projects sitting on the counter aren't hurting me...
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You don't trust him enough to take the next step.
Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.
I do trust him. And I care for him a lot.
It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best. (I really couldn't care less about how nice or big a place I have and I've realized relationships are more important. ) If I don't do this, it will probably mean the end of our relationship. We've been together 1.5 years and seeing and sleeping over each other's place twice a week, which is not sustainable.
I don't feel confident that it's the smart choice for me mentally and emotionally having that scenario, and I'm opening myself up to a lot of risk. But I guess paying him $800 in rent is worth it to keep him in my life and a chance at having a future with him. I was hoping there was a middle ground where financial and security can meet somewhere in the middle to make this relationship work. I just have to pay that amount, become a tenant of his house, and hope for the best.
why can't you two just continue dating from your separate domiciles?
the paying for his food is just bizarre - it's nonsensical. My best guess is that is his way of making sure you have absolutely no claims on his property - so in essence, he doesn't trust you. And if you aren't paying rent, just food - then maybe he doesn't even want to extend to you the common rights of a tenant. Why? Really - why not draw up a rental agree? first thought - so he can kick you to curb at a moment's notice. When he's done - you are out the door.
And aside from that - there is something a bit controlling about his plans here, he won't even negotiate on terms or amount. And I think your hesitation is about more than the dollar amount. It's about how he is laying this out in a bizarre, inflexible way and you have no say in how this arrangement goes down.
Think very long and hard about what that means, and how that would play out if you are living in his house and he doesn't even want you to pay rent - he wants you there without any claims to the place, and I think that is why you are stating your independence and legal rights as a reason not to.
As an aside - in the US you would have legal rights, and I think you are UK - and likely would have some rights. Maybe he thinks this bizarre paying for food eliminates those rights - or worse - that he thinks that will leave you believing that you don't have rights that you have.
Stay in your apartment! Mistress of your domain!
Keep seeing him if you must, and let him know that you will consider it when he is ready to move on to a jointly owned domicile.
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You know, I think this would be a good question to send to Captain Awkward. She is really good at spotting red flags, and if she lets comments be open her commenters also have lots of insight.
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It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best.
Most people where? Not here - I don’t see anyone saying you should pay $800.
I know we are only hearing one side of the story, but WHY are you so intent on staying in this relationship if your partner doesn’t seem to be willing to address any of your concerns/desires related to your living situation? At the very least he should be fine with you continuing to rent your own place. What’s not sustainable about sleeping at each other’s place?
Yup, typically there are 3 sides to a story: Person #1, Person #2 and the Truth.
Also, the difference in how two personalities approach the accomplishment of a personal goals.
If he wants to buy a home, proposes an amount for "rent", and has decided to live in this home for a period of time that suits his goals.....it's his business. Perhaps he's not as committed to a long term romantic relationship(with or without marriage).
Each individual in the end, must be responsible for themselves. Emotionally, fiscally, and practically.
If the OP, as she has indicated, has experienced having been in relationships that ended in a way that caused pain, disappointment and difficulty, maybe it is best to take a step back and examine the issues here that are causing discomfort?
He can do as he pleases. And as seems to be the case, and indeed is happening, is that without any form of effort toward melding goals between the two of you, he is moving ahead with his home purchase and how that will work for him.
At this juncture, he is doing what works for him and I suspect that's a good thing. He is clearly indicating his priorities.
Excellent insight into how he navigates this relationship.
I think the OP needs to take responsibility for what she wants and base her decision on that.
If she wants to be with him most of all then she'll have to accept the situation as he's offered it.
Otherwise, and what might appear to be the better decision, continue to live independently and seek to achieve your own
goals of home ownership.
JMHO
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Lots of good advice so far.
I'm chiming in to ask what would be your ultimate ideal scenario? If it's marriage and legal joint homeownership, then I would put a time frame of 2 years max on this living together situation (however it's actually structured.) Then, if after 2 years of living together there's no marriage plans, and that is a deal-breaker for you, then move on.
I think knowing this would let you retain that sense of power and autonomy you seem to feel would be lost with just an open-ended live-in situation.
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I wouldn't move in until it's clear that marriage is on the table...assuming that's your end goal. From what you've posted so far (including his fear of living together), there are too many red flags.
When I moved in with my now husband, we were both planning a future together. He didn't expect me to pay half of his rent. I payed for the groceries and other household expenses. After 6 months in his apartment, we bought a house together and split everything 50/50. Four years later, we got married and combined our checking accounts. He would have gotten married MUCH sooner, but I wanted to make sure this (my 2nd) marriage would succeed so opted for a long engagement.
There should be a strong desire - on both sides - to move in together. The terms should be agreeable to both parties. If not, I don't see this ending well.
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You don't trust him enough to take the next step.
Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.
I do trust him. And I care for him a lot.
It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best. (I really couldn't care less about how nice or big a place I have and I've realized relationships are more important. ) If I don't do this, it will probably mean the end of our relationship. We've been together 1.5 years and seeing and sleeping over each other's place twice a week, which is not sustainable.
I don't feel confident that it's the smart choice for me mentally and emotionally having that scenario, and I'm opening myself up to a lot of risk. But I guess paying him $800 in rent is worth it to keep him in my life and a chance at having a future with him. I was hoping there was a middle ground where financial and security can meet somewhere in the middle to make this relationship work. I just have to pay that amount, become a tenant of his house, and hope for the best.
why can't you two just continue dating from your separate domiciles?
the paying for his food is just bizarre - it's nonsensical. My best guess is that is his way of making sure you have absolutely no claims on his property - so in essence, he doesn't trust you. And if you aren't paying rent, just food - then maybe he doesn't even want to extend to you the common rights of a tenant. Why? Really - why not draw up a rental agree? first thought - so he can kick you to curb at a moment's notice. When he's done - you are out the door.
And aside from that - there is something a bit controlling about his plans here, he won't even negotiate on terms or amount. And I think your hesitation is about more than the dollar amount. It's about how he is laying this out in a bizarre, inflexible way and you have no say in how this arrangement goes down.
Think very long and hard about what that means, and how that would play out if you are living in his house and he doesn't even want you to pay rent - he wants you there without any claims to the place, and I think that is why you are stating your independence and legal rights as a reason not to.
As an aside - in the US you would have legal rights, and I think you are UK - and likely would have some rights. Maybe he thinks this bizarre paying for food eliminates those rights - or worse - that he thinks that will leave you believing that you don't have rights that you have.
Stay in your apartment! Mistress of your domain!
Keep seeing him if you must, and let him know that you will consider it when he is ready to move on to a jointly owned domicile.
I don't think that painting her boyfriend as a Dickensian villain is helpful to the OP. It was not helpful to me when I was married. He might be short on empathy--it sounds like he is pretty sure his plan is reasonable and is not seeing the situation through OP's eyes--but that is not the same as having some nefarious plot. Didn't OP say that the grocery thing was her idea because she didn't like the idea of paying rent?
The question isn't whether the rent is reasonable. I still think it's too high for a place she has no equity in, didn't pick and seems unexcited about, but other people disagree. To me the issue is that in the scenario being discussed, OP is the one making every single compromise, and I think that's a terrible foundation for a long-term relationship. @MS86TO, you deserve an arrangement that makes you comfortable, and I hope you hold out for it. If he is the right man for you, he will take your feelings seriously and work with you.
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- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a compromise on what I believe.
Listen to your self! Stay where you are until you are married!!!
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Is your partner so insistent on the $800 because he's been burned by a previous girlfriend who might have flaked on an agreed contribution?
Haven't really heard a lot about the reasons why he is drawing the line in the sand here. Many responses are assuming he is unreasonable without knowing the real reason why.
- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a compromise on what I believe.
Listen to your self! Stay where you are until you are married!!!
Agree - don't break your own rules. You're supposed to learn from experience. In investing we call it the "this time it's different" thinking.
It's never different.
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You don't trust him enough to take the next step.
Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.
I wish I could thumbs up a post.
OP, the way you are feeling and thinking about this is completely understandable. You are under no obligation to move in with him. . . And you are under no obligation to cave to his “offer” of the amount you should pay him. When I was young I was all for people moving in together, but over time my thinking has shifted to where you are: keep separate homes until at least being formally engaged. Otherwise you are just playing house, and you’ve already learned how easy it is to get burned doing that. If it is meant to be, he will understand that you want to keep your own place until a more permanent plan is in place (like a marriage or at least an actual wedding date, that everyone in your lives has been told about.)
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I am a male that owns a house with a live-in girlfriend. When we were deciding if she should re lease her appt, I offered her to live with me for 300$. That is half of the utilities/housing expenses for one month. That does not include principal or equity towards my house. This is very cheap for her coming from a apartment that was 1000$ / month. It allows her to pay off her student loans. She does buy all the groceries that is about 400$ per month but I also pay for all outings and dinners out that runs about 400 per month also. We don't argue about money and it was a take it or leave it mentality for both of us and we just ran with it.
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I went back and read all of your posts here, @MS86TO.
In many ways he sounds like a sweet guy, and it is understandable that you really care for him.
One thing that does bug me a lot about what you have written is his stubborn stance about the dollar figure. It seems like it is $800 to move in with him, take it or leave it. Sure, maybe that is fair and maybe it isn't, but it's really very concerning that he has cited that number and is sticking to it rather than listening to you.
I don't know how much of what you have written here has been communicated to him, but, it sounds like at least you have tried to suggest alternatives and he has just shot those down. This tells me that he is not negotiating in good faith, because saying "this is my only offer, no room to negotiate" is not how you should deal with someone you love. To me, that is the biggest red flag. He is not honoring your feelings or ideas about what is fair. He's a poor negotiator because he doesn't see the other person's side of the situation, and I actually think that $800 a month on a $1200 a month mortgage is a bit bullying. Other people may think it is fair, but i would argue that $400-$500 a month is more fair, because as an unmarried couple he is building equity in the home, while you are not. YMMV. But you don't want to be his tenant at all, and so he should honor that by really working especially hard to make you feel safe in this move.
Have you both taken a Myers Briggs personality test? Here is a link to that:
https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test (https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test)
I suggest this because of differences you have in decorating, the broken clock, thoughts about how to handle finances, etc. As a pair, the two of you sound a lot like my other half and me. We are madly in love, but we certainly have our different ways of going about things (INTJ with an ENFP . . . so three out of four things are different.) However, watching some videos about each other's personality types has really helped us both realize that our complementary styles actually make it fun to be together. For example, I like to travel, but I'm terrible about planning travel details. I also wait until the last minute to pack, don't know what times the trains run, etc. My other half is really good about planning tiny details, which I appreciate, but then gets upset when things don't go according to plan . . . that's where I pop in and say it's okay for us to go with the flow. We can think about the cancelled flight as a chance to have a nice dinner in a new neighborhood, or bad traffic as a chance to pull off an exit and get smoothies. Whatever. On the flip side, I'm much better about financial planning, which stresses my other half out probably due of a lifetime of baggage and insecurity around money, although that is improving as we work as a team. Are you ready to work as a team with this guy? And is he ready to work as a team with you? Or is he going to try to dictate the terms of everything, just like he is dictating this rent payment rather than compromising?
He wants to have his cake and eat it too without getting married. He wants you to pay more than half his mortgage and have all of the other benefits of having you around full time (because you sound great! please come decorate my place!)
You want to get married . . . it is clear. Then there is no "my money and your money" or "my house and you pay rent." It is just "our house." Sure, maybe it isn't the house you would pick, but you could then feel okay staying there for at least 5 years because you'd be benefiting from the gain in equity. And it really would be "our house", because you'd get half of the home value if there is a split regardless of where the down payment came from. That's how it works. If married, you could agree with his idea to stay there 5 years building equity, and then plan to look for the next house together as a couple to try to get more of the things you are looking for yourself in a home.
Have you told him that you don't feel comfortable living with someone again without getting married? Have you told him you feel like you got burned other times by moving in and giving up your own independent residence without getting married? Is he listening? Or is he dismissing your feelings and ideas as silly or not important or wrong? He should understand that you want to get married before living together. If he doesn't, then he just isn't the right guy at this time despite his other positive qualities.
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I think those of us who are focused on the 800 dollars are missing the point. In everything the OP has said it is about giving up her independence and security to move in with someone who, at this time, does not want to marry her. And she has done that before, several times. There is nothing we can say, no advice we can give you that will make him marry you. You want to move in, get married shortly thereafter and in doing so, gain half the equity in this house he has already purchased with his own money and hard work. And maybe redirect the living arrangements to a home you would be more comfortable in. You are not ready by any stretch to do the compromising and rolling with the punches it takes to make a long term living arrangement work whether married or just living together.
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Coming back and rereading a bit. You mentioned that your last relationship was 4 years living together. In my province you would have been considered common law married after 3. What are the laws re common law marriage in your state?
I've seen these same issues discussed elsewhere, it is a situation that does arise.
@MS86TO any news?
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Coming back and rereading a bit. You mentioned that your last relationship was 4 years living together. In my province you would have been considered common law married after 3. What are the laws re common law marriage in your state?
I've seen these same issues discussed elsewhere, it is a situation that does arise.
@MS86TO any news?
I think that's a Canadian thing (or other counties besides the US) as we don't have that in any US State afaik - although I may be wrong.
I'm also curious as to what the OP decided and hope she didn't think we were bei g to harsh and Judgmental.
Common law marriages are a thing here in the US for sure. My FIL had to go through a costly "divorce" to get his long time live in GF out of his house when they broke up. Cleaned him out well and good the same a proper divorce would have. I was a bit taken aback by it honestly, it was eye opening.
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Coming back and rereading a bit. You mentioned that your last relationship was 4 years living together. In my province you would have been considered common law married after 3. What are the laws re common law marriage in your state?
I've seen these same issues discussed elsewhere, it is a situation that does arise.
@MS86TO any news?
I think that's a Canadian thing (or other counties besides the US) as we don't have that in any US State afaik - although I may be wrong.
I'm also curious as to what the OP decided and hope she didn't think we were bei g to harsh and Judgmental.
Common law marriages are a thing here in the US for sure. My FIL had to go through a costly "divorce" to get his long time live in GF out of his house when they broke up. Cleaned him out well and good the same a proper divorce would have. I was a bit taken aback by it honestly, it was eye opening.
Yes. People need to know the laws of their state/province. Always good to meet with a lawyer to discuss possible consequences before anything starts.
Basically what I have seen among elderly people who are embarking on new not-married relationships is that they do a cohabitation agreement, equal to a prenup. These are mostly people who are widowed, want their estates to go to children and grandchildren, and generally want to avoid having their finances mingled with the other person's. If I were to ever live with someone again this is what I would do.
I've also seen them with young people who are living together and buying a house together but at that point are not yet married. A cohabitation agreement makes things a lot smoother if they break up. It also gives the basis for deciding if they need a pre-nup if they get married, or if they are OK with their province/state's laws about marital assets.
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Coming back and rereading a bit. You mentioned that your last relationship was 4 years living together. In my province you would have been considered common law married after 3. What are the laws re common law marriage in your state?
I've seen these same issues discussed elsewhere, it is a situation that does arise.
@MS86TO any news?
I think that's a Canadian thing (or other counties besides the US) as we don't have that in any US State afaik - although I may be wrong.
I'm also curious as to what the OP decided and hope she didn't think we were bei g to harsh and Judgmental.
Common law marriages are a thing here in the US for sure. My FIL had to go through a costly "divorce" to get his long time live in GF out of his house when they broke up. Cleaned him out well and good the same a proper divorce would have. I was a bit taken aback by it honestly, it was eye opening.
I googled it and it seems that only 8 states recognize common law marriage so you FIL was probably in one of this. In the other states you are not entitled to any "marital" assets just your own. If BF and I live together I'm no more entitled the his stuff then he is to mine. We are basicly treated like roommates legally. However regular contract law would apply if say we bought property together or somehow combined assets. Same if one of us dies. There are no survivership rights or inheritance rights unless we have a will stating that. I'm in Calif btw where we have legal domestic partner laws but you have to file for that for them to be legally enforceable. Also may be some laws that recognize really long term live-together situations where one person completely supported the other. Not sure about that though.
Usually to be considered common law in the US, you need to do more than live together, you need to also hold yourself out as being married. (And it's a common misperception that you need to live together X time. AFAIK, no state imposes a time requirement for common law marriage.) For example, hold a wedding ceremony, call yourselves spouses, change your name socially, have joint bank accounts with the "married" name, etc. But it varies by state, so check your state laws. As Spartana notes, few states have it anymore though. For example, Pennsylvania ended it in 2006? I think, although I believe people in common law marriages at the time might be grandfathered in.
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I'm not going to rehash many of the thoughts already pointed out, on the initial question I will simply say that I don't think you should move in together right now (shot out to great posts from @La Bibliotecaria Feroz @Laura33 @marty998 @MKinVA and many others).
What I will comment on is this...
His approach to life and finances is very simple, and practical, in a very no-nonsense kind of way. He genuinely thinks this is a good deal for me, considering the math and what I get out of it, and can't understand my problem with it. And it's because he doesn't quite understand my situation or where I'm coming from, because he's never even remotely experienced it. He's never lived with anyone, not even a roommate. He's never been homeless. He's always had parents and family to guide him, back him up, give him hand-outs, etc. So I know he's not coming from a place of bad intentions, but maybe more of ignorance. And it's not something I can blame a person for. And he's excited about the idea of us living together and thinks it will just be perfect and dandy, and I don't think he thinks about any of the risks I worry about.
What you are describing is a significant lack of empathy, and I would think very, very long and hard before committing to a relationship with someone who is not interested in working on this. He may not have had to develop his empathy muscles given his background and experience, but if he is not interested in trying to work on his empathy muscles, then I would sprint, not walk, out of this relationship.
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He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses.
It seems like the way he said it was just to save face because he didn't want to say "hey, pay me $800 rent for the place I own".
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I wouldn't let a male partner move in with me for free but I would let a female partner move in for free. Because men make more.
?????
<Checks year.... 2019.... >
Yep, even in 2019.
Women earn just 79 cents for every dollar men make in 2019.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/02/heres-how-much-men-and-women-earn-at-every-age.html
The gap is much smaller once you correct for choice of profession and years of experience.
...which certainly isn't right, it's just not as dramatic as the 79 cents number.