Author Topic: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances  (Read 7107 times)

MS86TO

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Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« on: October 24, 2019, 11:46:55 AM »
I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.

The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.

He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.

My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.

1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.

2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.

3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.

4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.

Other considerations:

- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.

- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a  compromise on what I believe.

- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.

- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.

This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.

Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?

Car Jack

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2019, 11:56:21 AM »
Let's move past doors number one, two and three and see what's in the big box.  Oh, it's a big winner.  (I'm referring to the old show "Let's make a deal" in case you have no idea what I'm talking about).

And the answer is:  Don't move in with him.  That is 100% the best thing to do.  You get to keep your own apartment and he gets to do whatever the hell he wants to do with his spare money and with his house.  It's pretty clear that you're both on pages of completely different books. 

spartana

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2019, 12:06:46 PM »
Personally $800/month sounds reasonable to me if it is including all expenses such as rent, utilities, internet, etc... It sounds like this is what he may charge a roommate. At this point that is what you are and you have no financial obligations to him (or he to you) for anything. Once the relationships moves into that area then you can reevaluate your housing and financial situation as a couple. Until then just enjoy having a nicer place for much less cost and sharing it with someone you care about. Save the extra money you are no longer paying to rent your apt and use that if SHTF in.the relationship. You are no better off financially staying where you are at and paying a higher rent then if you moved into his house and paid lower rent. You are paying rent now of $1125/month. I assume unless you buy your own place you'll continue to pay that and will no more see a dime of that money in 5 years then you would of the $800/month you'd pay to live with BF in his house.

 ETA I agree that you are on very different pages in terms of lifestyle wants and may be a sign you are incompatible for a long term relationship if you can't both find a compromise you're happy with.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 12:27:59 PM by spartana »

Catbert

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2019, 12:10:40 PM »
I think Car Jack has the right answer - you two are not ready to move in together.

Personally I think his opening offer is reasonably "fair".  The $800 isn't for "his" "groceries, internet and other expenses.  It's for "your" share of groceries, internet, other expenses, plus rent.  This is $325 less than your current rent alone, not to mention utilities and food costs.

JLee

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2019, 12:15:23 PM »
I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.

The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.

He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.

My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.

1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.

2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.

3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.

4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.

Other considerations:

5- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.

6- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a  compromise on what I believe.

7- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.

8- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.

9This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.

Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?

My immediate first thought is, if you can't reconcile this discussion between yourselves, perhaps it is not the right time (or person) to move in together (or with).

1) Are you planning on getting married in 1-2 years?  I can understand him not wanting to downgrade from his house.

2) Am I to understand that you feel that $800/mo is unfair because you don't get to own the house, yet you are happy paying $1125/mo plus groceries, internet, and utilities for your apartment (which you also do not own)?

3) He's right. You'd be freeloading at his expense.

4) I wouldn't be comfortable with that either; it does not help with cash flow and it's a significant financial pressure on the future of your relationship.

IMO what you should do is pay a fair market rent for what he would charge a roommate in that situation.  You're clearly in a relationship with blended finances, so either of you subsidizing the other is not a good path to go down.

To continue:

5) He needs to stay 3 years in order to get the capital gains exemption on sale. 5 years is generally accepted as the minimum amount of time it's worth buying a house due to the transaction costs in buying/selling. Staying one year and then buying something else is, in all likelihood, a financially catastrophic choice. If you stay in your current apartment and the rent is not raised a penny, you will be paying $67,500 in rent over the next five years, leaving you with 16,500 (plus groceries, internet, utilities) fewer dollars with which to put towards a house.

6) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.

7) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.

8) Perhaps you are not ready either.

9) This goes back to my first thought...perhaps it is not the right time and/or person.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 12:24:44 PM by JLee »

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2019, 12:18:55 PM »
Drilling down the finances:

The $800 would just be paying for his part of the groceries along with the internet. He spends $700 right now on groceries alone because he eats a lot of meat for his powerlifting goals which requires 5 solid whole meals a day. Any other groceries that I would eat on top of his $700, I would have to pay extra. Right now I probably pay $300-400 for myself.

Also note, his mortgage is $1,200/month.

Villanelle

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2019, 12:24:37 PM »
I tend to agree that it sounds like you are a long way from being ready to move in together.

Have you proposed paying the middle ground between your $562 and his $800.  Yes, you are paying for more space than you need, but you are getting that space none the less. 

What do you think he could reasonably charge a roommate?

And given the complicated grocery situation, maybe you need to take that out of the equation, since his bill is much higher than typical.  You cold each just buy your own groceries.  Though if you are doing that, it kind of just reenforces the point that you may not be ready to be in a cohabitating relationship. 

JLee

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2019, 12:25:40 PM »
Drilling down the finances:

The $800 would just be paying for his part of the groceries along with the internet. He spends $700 right now on groceries alone because he eats a lot of meat for his powerlifting goals which requires 5 solid whole meals a day. Any other groceries that I would eat on top of his $700, I would have to pay extra. Right now I probably pay $300-400 for myself.

Also note, his mortgage is $1,200/month.

I am confused. The proposition is that you pay for his groceries and his internet, and then live in the house for free?

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2019, 12:38:15 PM »
I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.

The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.

He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.

My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.

1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.

2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.

3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.

4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.

Other considerations:

5- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.

6- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a  compromise on what I believe.

7- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.

8- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.

9This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.

Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?

My immediate first thought is, if you can't reconcile this discussion between yourselves, perhaps it is not the right time (or person) to move in together (or with).

1) Are you planning on getting married in 1-2 years?  I can understand him not wanting to downgrade from his house.

2) Am I to understand that you feel that $800/mo is unfair because you don't get to own the house, yet you are happy paying $1125/mo plus groceries, internet, and utilities for your apartment (which you also do not own)?

3) He's right. You'd be freeloading at his expense.

4) I wouldn't be comfortable with that either; it does not help with cash flow and it's a significant financial pressure on the future of your relationship.

IMO what you should do is pay a fair market rent for what he would charge a roommate in that situation.  You're clearly in a relationship with blended finances, so either of you subsidizing the other is not a good path to go down.

To continue:

5) He needs to stay 3 years in order to get the capital gains exemption on sale. 5 years is generally accepted as the minimum amount of time it's worth buying a house due to the transaction costs in buying/selling. Staying one year and then buying something else is, in all likelihood, a financially catastrophic choice. If you stay in your current apartment and the rent is not raised a penny, you will be paying $67,500 in rent over the next five years, leaving you with 16,500 (plus groceries, internet, utilities) fewer dollars with which to put towards a house.

6) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.

7) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.

8) Perhaps you are not ready either.

9) This goes back to my first thought...perhaps it is not the right time and/or person.

JLee:

1. Marriage is possible in the future, as we've discussed. But who knows.

2. The difference is even though I'm renting, I have all the legal rights to the place, as a legal tenant. If I live at his house, he can kick me out anytime, and I have no legal recourse, otherwise. And I've already experienced that. And note, by kicking out, I don't mean because we ended up badly, it's just we were both heartbroken that it's torture to see each other everyday but because the other person owns the place, they have a right to it, and I have to comply. I'm the one who initiated ending the relationships, myself, once I realized there was no future.

And I don't plan to rent for 5 years. Just 1-2 years while I save up money to buy a house.

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2019, 12:41:12 PM »
Drilling down the finances:

The $800 would just be paying for his part of the groceries along with the internet. He spends $700 right now on groceries alone because he eats a lot of meat for his powerlifting goals which requires 5 solid whole meals a day. Any other groceries that I would eat on top of his $700, I would have to pay extra. Right now I probably pay $300-400 for myself.

Also note, his mortgage is $1,200/month.

I am confused. The proposition is that you pay for his groceries and his internet, and then live in the house for free?

He wants me to pay my fare share of $800, and he thinks that by switching from the thought of me renting from him and him as my landlord, that instead I pay that $800 towards his groceries that I would feel better about it. But at the end of the day, I am required to pay $800/month to live for 5 years at his place.

JLee

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2019, 01:00:48 PM »
I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.

The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.

He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.

My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.

1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.

2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.

3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.

4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.

Other considerations:

5- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.

6- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a  compromise on what I believe.

7- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.

8- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.

9This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.

Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?

My immediate first thought is, if you can't reconcile this discussion between yourselves, perhaps it is not the right time (or person) to move in together (or with).

1) Are you planning on getting married in 1-2 years?  I can understand him not wanting to downgrade from his house.

2) Am I to understand that you feel that $800/mo is unfair because you don't get to own the house, yet you are happy paying $1125/mo plus groceries, internet, and utilities for your apartment (which you also do not own)?

3) He's right. You'd be freeloading at his expense.

4) I wouldn't be comfortable with that either; it does not help with cash flow and it's a significant financial pressure on the future of your relationship.

IMO what you should do is pay a fair market rent for what he would charge a roommate in that situation.  You're clearly in a relationship with blended finances, so either of you subsidizing the other is not a good path to go down.

To continue:

5) He needs to stay 3 years in order to get the capital gains exemption on sale. 5 years is generally accepted as the minimum amount of time it's worth buying a house due to the transaction costs in buying/selling. Staying one year and then buying something else is, in all likelihood, a financially catastrophic choice. If you stay in your current apartment and the rent is not raised a penny, you will be paying $67,500 in rent over the next five years, leaving you with 16,500 (plus groceries, internet, utilities) fewer dollars with which to put towards a house.

6) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.

7) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.

8) Perhaps you are not ready either.

9) This goes back to my first thought...perhaps it is not the right time and/or person.

JLee:

1. Marriage is possible in the future, as we've discussed. But who knows.

2. The difference is even though I'm renting, I have all the legal rights to the place, as a legal tenant. If I live at his house, he can kick me out anytime, and I have no legal recourse, otherwise. And I've already experienced that. And note, by kicking out, I don't mean because we ended up badly, it's just we were both heartbroken that it's torture to see each other everyday but because the other person owns the place, they have a right to it, and I have to comply. I'm the one who initiated ending the relationships, myself, once I realized there was no future.

And I don't plan to rent for 5 years. Just 1-2 years while I save up money to buy a house.

Are you sure about that? I have a rental agreement with my roommates..

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2019, 01:01:34 PM »
I tend to agree that it sounds like you are a long way from being ready to move in together.

Have you proposed paying the middle ground between your $562 and his $800.  Yes, you are paying for more space than you need, but you are getting that space none the less. 

What do you think he could reasonably charge a roommate?

And given the complicated grocery situation, maybe you need to take that out of the equation, since his bill is much higher than typical.  You cold each just buy your own groceries.  Though if you are doing that, it kind of just reenforces the point that you may not be ready to be in a cohabitating relationship.

Renting a room would probably cost $500-$600. He won't budge and hasn't given any alternative options than the flat $800.

Ideally, we'd rent a place or own a place 50/50. My ex and I paid things 50/50 for the first 2 years even though his income was almost twice as much as mine.

I guess my question is, should just consider the money amount and what's fair monetarily?

I lose my own security, independence and control over my living conditions. I'd have to give all that up living under his roof. Is it worth it to pay $800 just so I could be with him and lose all those things that I value?

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2019, 01:04:57 PM »
I'm looking for some relationship and money advice with regards to living with a partner who owns the house.

The situation is that my boyfriend just a bought a house and we are trying to decide the best arrangement that would be the most fair for each of us.

He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses. His reasoning that this is fair is because it would help me save $325, down from my current rent for my rented 1-bedroom apartment of $1,125. This amount is fairly reasonable from a budget perspective because it's still living well below my means and lower than the average pay for housing. Also I would have a higher quality living in a better, bigger place. He will pay for and own all of his own furniture and items.

My issue with this is that, looking beyond the hard dollar finances, I don't think it's fair. It would be a much bigger risk for me. I've given him different options that he has all rejected.

1. I offered to have him move in with me and he could rent out his home to save some money. We will split the rent in half and be co-renters on paper. We will each only pay $562 per month in rent. He rejected this because he wants more room and the nicer appliances, and other increases in the standard of living with owning the house. These things that are, although nice-to-haves, are not at all a priority for me. I'm happy to just live with him in a small rented place while we save towards a home we will both own in 1-2 years.

2. I offered to pay him $562 (what I would be paying if he moved in with me) in rent, and split all other regular non-housing expenses 50/50. I figured it's not fair for me to pay for his higher standard of living. Also I don't think it's fair that I'm helping him pay for his mortgage, while I don't get anything at the end. He rejected this too because he thought it was too little.

3. I offered to instead save the $800 a month myself in a savings/investings amount, and at the point that he is ready to "go all in" then I would give the whole lump sum to him as equity for the home (his current one or a new one we'd get together). This way the money is going towards a home that is for both of us instead of just his. He doesn't like this idea because he thinks he'd have the financial pressure to stay with me a relationship in order to get that money.

4. So to counterpoint that last one, I suggested it would be flipped, in that I would pay him the $800 a month but he would put all that amount in a dedicated savings/investing account under his own name, and at the point in time that we decide to go all in to a place, then he would put the sum as equity into a home. At any time that it doesn't work out, he still gets to keep all of that money, as rent in a sense. I'm putting my money on the cards that we'd stay together. He doesn't like this either.

Other considerations:

5- He wants to live in this same house for at least 5 years, nothing less. I suggested we stay 1-2 years max and then buy our own place together after, but he won't accept this because he wants to get a bigger bang for his buck on extra home buying/selling costs. If I pay him his requested $800/month, that would add up to $51,000 of payment to him in 5 years, of which I don't see a dime at the end, while he has bigger equity towards his home. I don't think this is at all fair. I could save that amount for a big chunk on a home I could buy for myself.

6- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a  compromise on what I believe.

7- Long story short, for my last live-in relationship, I arrived to live with him with nothing but 2 suitcases and my 2 cats. After 3.5 years of living at his house and paying him rent and shared expenses, I left with even less: 1 suitcase and my 2 cats. I lost not only a person I loved deeply, but a house I genuinely loved and invested in, financially and emotionally. I planted tulips in the fall that I never saw blossom in the spring. Lost dreams and lost dollars flushed down into the toilet of failed relationships. It was an incredibly hard time. It would just be plain foolish to make the same mistakes over and over again.

8- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.

9This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.

Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?

My immediate first thought is, if you can't reconcile this discussion between yourselves, perhaps it is not the right time (or person) to move in together (or with).

1) Are you planning on getting married in 1-2 years?  I can understand him not wanting to downgrade from his house.

2) Am I to understand that you feel that $800/mo is unfair because you don't get to own the house, yet you are happy paying $1125/mo plus groceries, internet, and utilities for your apartment (which you also do not own)?

3) He's right. You'd be freeloading at his expense.

4) I wouldn't be comfortable with that either; it does not help with cash flow and it's a significant financial pressure on the future of your relationship.

IMO what you should do is pay a fair market rent for what he would charge a roommate in that situation.  You're clearly in a relationship with blended finances, so either of you subsidizing the other is not a good path to go down.

To continue:

5) He needs to stay 3 years in order to get the capital gains exemption on sale. 5 years is generally accepted as the minimum amount of time it's worth buying a house due to the transaction costs in buying/selling. Staying one year and then buying something else is, in all likelihood, a financially catastrophic choice. If you stay in your current apartment and the rent is not raised a penny, you will be paying $67,500 in rent over the next five years, leaving you with 16,500 (plus groceries, internet, utilities) fewer dollars with which to put towards a house.

6) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.

7) If he isn't ready, he isn't ready.

8) Perhaps you are not ready either.

9) This goes back to my first thought...perhaps it is not the right time and/or person.

JLee:

1. Marriage is possible in the future, as we've discussed. But who knows.

2. The difference is even though I'm renting, I have all the legal rights to the place, as a legal tenant. If I live at his house, he can kick me out anytime, and I have no legal recourse, otherwise. And I've already experienced that. And note, by kicking out, I don't mean because we ended up badly, it's just we were both heartbroken that it's torture to see each other everyday but because the other person owns the place, they have a right to it, and I have to comply. I'm the one who initiated ending the relationships, myself, once I realized there was no future.

And I don't plan to rent for 5 years. Just 1-2 years while I save up money to buy a house.

Are you sure about that? I have a rental agreement with my roommates..

Yeah, a rental agreement could be an option. Although it's a bit cold and sterile of an arrangement for a romantic relationship. But it's something to consider anyway.

Malcat

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2019, 01:07:24 PM »
You don't trust him enough to take the next step.

Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.


Samuel

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2019, 01:22:45 PM »
The reasonableness of his offer is completely separate from the decision to move in together or not. I'd focus on the latter issue before tackling the former. You haven't really described a particularly compelling reason for you to break your own well considered rule against this, and your boyfriend seems to be making decisions that don't align all that well with your ideal timeline of being married and house hunting together in 1-2 years.

What's the rush? Keep separate homes until you're closer to being on the same page.

NotJen

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2019, 01:25:32 PM »
Quote
Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage.

Donít move in with him.

Why does his emotional issue trump yours?  Why are you the one compromising?

Here4theGB

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2019, 01:30:28 PM »
He sure has a lot of rules and upsides with little risk while you have nothing but downsides and shoulder all of the risk.

And if you can't figure something like this out between the two of you, how do you see this moving towards marriage?

spartana

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2019, 01:38:32 PM »
You don't trust him enough to take the next step.

Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.
Yes this. Don't move in with him yet and retain.your independence even if it costs you much more financially.

If you do want to live with him now then offer fair market rent (say $600/month) and to split utilities, internet, cable, 50/50. Figure out a food budget the is fair to both of you. Then save your extra income to either buy a house by yourself in.the future, or buy a 1/2 equity of his place (or a new place) if your relationship progresses to that point.

Or as another option give up your apt and rent a room somewhere and pay $600 plus utilities and remain independent of any one bit your landlord. Save your extra income and buy your own place in the future. Or with BF once you are both ready for that.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 01:40:32 PM by spartana »

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2019, 01:50:52 PM »
You don't trust him enough to take the next step.

Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.

I do trust him. And I care for him a lot.

It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best. (I really couldn't care less about how nice or big a place I have and I've realized relationships are more important. ) If I don't do this, it will probably mean the end of our relationship. We've been together 1.5 years and seeing and sleeping over each other's place twice a week, which is not sustainable.

I don't feel confident that it's the smart choice for me mentally and emotionally having that scenario, and I'm opening myself up to a lot of risk. But I guess paying him $800 in rent is worth it to keep him in my life and a chance at having a future with him. I was hoping there was a middle ground where financial and security can meet somewhere in the middle to make this relationship work. I just have to pay that amount, become a tenant of his house, and hope for the best.

spartana

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2019, 02:04:40 PM »
But you'll have greater financial security right now paying $800/month all inclusive (besides your personal food) then you would by continuing to pay $1125/month plus utilities and internet and food.  Your current landlord can kick you out with 30 days notice in most case and if you move in with BF and save the difference you'll be able to fund a motel for 30 days while you look for a new place.

It seems to me you are expecting your BF to include you in on his house ownership when clearly he is not ready to do that. He doesn't want to rent a smaller place. He bought what HE wanted to buy regardless of your desires. And he doesn't want to include you in any current ownership or financial obligations yet. Maybe someday he will. Maybe he won't. But either way $800/month all inclusive besides your personal food seems like a rational choice for both of you guys now.

Also saying that if you don't do this your relationship won't survive is a HUGE red flag. That is not how caring loving mature adults make decisions. If he is unable to recognize that you are not happy with this (and you are not able to recognise his reasons to be hesitant about including you as a financial co-partner yet) and try to find a different solution that works for both is you, then yes, the relationship will unlikely survive any real test or real hardship.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 02:25:38 PM by spartana »

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2019, 02:12:40 PM »
"Most people" is not my interpretation of the comments. I am seeing a lot of negatives.

It's not clear to me why he thinks your paying 2/3 of the mortgage instead of half is fair. You don't REALLY seem to think it's fair, either.

Are you excited about moving in with him? Are you excited about your future together?

I was married when I was very young and my husband at the time was a very strong personality. We divorced after 15 years and two kids. My cautionary tale for you is that I always caved. Whatever he wanted, he got. Quit his job and go to grad school? Yes. Sell our house to do it? Yes. Move halfway across the country for a good job? Yes. It was, as with your situation, always at least pretty close to reasonable. There were always Reasons.

But me letting him dictate the terms was not sustainable. Eventually I checked out emotionally from the marriage and he got restless and this time instead of moving us to a new state he asked for a divorce and I was happy he thought it was his idea. He is now married to a hilarious, strong-willed lady with a lot of tattoos who probably gives him a run for his money and I am married to a guy who listens when I talk.

Maybe I'm off base, but I am getting a whiff of that here. He is dictating the terms of your moving in together--the place, the timeline, the financial arrangement--and you're in love and you want to be with him and it's easier to go along with it. It will make neither of you happy in the long run. Please come to an arrangement that genuinely makes both of you comfortable before you move in, even if it means awkwardly extending your lease.

If you can't do that, better to know now than later, when you are already living there and something comes up that you can't or won't budge on. But if you CAN do that, the payoff for your life together will be huge. Good luck! Please let us know how it goes.

BicycleB

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2019, 02:13:12 PM »
I very very strongly disagree with the assertion that the $800 is reasonable. @MS86TO, stay far away from this offer and keep renting this apartment!!!

In my view, the key elements here are that you value your own independence, and do not wish to pay more than $525/mo for his desired luxury level.

The first element is sufficient to imply you should simply stay in your apartment. The offer for him to move in by splitting your rent is reasonable. You've been through being at lovers' mercy before. If he cares about you, he can respect that.

In my opinion, the many details of his logic are all red flags from a relationship standpoint. At every step, he values the exact vision that he desires, does not substantively grasp your concerns, and makes only surface concessions when you articulate your views. Because of this, I highly support your wariness of his offer, and advise you not to accept at any price, even if he relents and reduces to $525 at his place. His conditions are far too controlling and you are way too early in the process of learning to set your own boundaries. Just no, no, no.

His $800 offer is only reasonable if marriage is to be based on his desired luxuries, with you contributing money toward them according to your means, without any compensation for risks taken. That's a bad deal for you on both the emotional and practical levels.

I think this is a good courtship conflict because it illuminates issues that will be bigger problems later. At minimum, if this becomes a marriage, you're going to have to draw many lines and stand firm about them while he argues for what he wants. He will still have family and backing, you'll still have no recourse. I doubt that's a good idea, but if it is, he will pursue it while you live gloriously in your own rented castle, unattainable to him...but already attained by you!

Where is his concern for you? All his thoughts are about him until you interrupt by making multiple reasonable offers that he rejects.

I apologize if overstepping the financial piece is going too far here, but since you mention having been a crown ward, forgive me for remarking that it's understandable to seek love, ideally a secure love that your parents were not able to give. But don't assume any love is the love you need. Hold out for love that values you, not controls you; love that appreciates all of your concerns, not love that invites you into a gilded cage where you risk being kicked out.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 02:22:28 PM by BicycleB »

NotJen

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2019, 02:24:48 PM »
It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best.

Most people where?  Not here - I donít see anyone saying you should pay $800.

I know we are only hearing one side of the story, but WHY are you so intent on staying in this relationship if your partner doesnít seem to be willing to address any of your concerns/desires related to your living situation?  At the very least he should be fine with you continuing to rent your own place.  Whatís not sustainable about sleeping at each otherís place?

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2019, 02:29:30 PM »
But you'll have greater financial security right now paying $800/month all inclusive (besides your personal food) then you would by continuing to pay $1125/month plus utilities and internet and food.  Your current landlord can kick you out with 30 days notice in most case and if you move in with BF and save the difference you'll be able to fund a motel for 30 days while you look for a new place. It seems to me you are expecting your BF to include you in on his house ownership when clearly he is not ready to do that. He doesn't want to rent a smaller place. He bought what HE wanted to buy regardless of your desires. And it doesn't want to include you 8n any ownership or financial obligations yet. Maybe someday he will. Maybe he won't. But either way $800/month all inclusive besides your personal food seems like a rational choice for both of you guys now.

My $1125 rent is all-inclusive. My only other housing-related expense is internet of about $50/month and tenant insurance of $31/month.

The rule here is 60 days notice. I have never been left homeless by a landlord, as I'm the model tenant and have had no issues. (I also decorate my place quite nice, clean and organized, that I increased the value for rent of an old apartment to $300/month more from the viewings to prospective tenants. ) I have, however, been left homeless by past ex-boyfriends, with as little notice as a couple of days to a week notice. I've had to scramble to find and move into an apartment (before airbnb times) or rent an airbnb room with the last one.

He started to buy the 3-bedroom house while we were broken up for a short period. After we got back together, we've had talks about the plan of living there together. He's quite hopeless with home improvement (he hasn't even painted walls before!), home interior design and home shopping. While I'm very experienced on all of those.

And yeah, you're right, he's not ready to go as far as home ownership with me, and maybe that's within his rights as I'm not able to match him financially.

Yeah, at the end of the day $800, is very doable, if I can get over the risks involved.

spartana

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2019, 02:38:10 PM »
And if you can't that's OK. You need to do what makes you comfortable. If it's important enough to you (and you're important enough to him) then you guys may be able to find a compromise that works for both of you. Until then you would be better off keeping your own place. I've been in a similar situation (still am...er..sort of) but for me I felt that being the "renter" with a fix rate all incluvise rent to be extremely freeing.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 02:43:27 PM by spartana »

BicycleB

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2019, 02:39:31 PM »
You don't trust him enough to take the next step.

Keep paying your rent for your own place until you feel 100% ready to move in with him.

I do trust him. And I care for him a lot.

It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best. (I really couldn't care less about how nice or big a place I have and I've realized relationships are more important. ) If I don't do this, it will probably mean the end of our relationship. We've been together 1.5 years and seeing and sleeping over each other's place twice a week, which is not sustainable.

I don't feel confident that it's the smart choice for me mentally and emotionally having that scenario, and I'm opening myself up to a lot of risk. But I guess paying him $800 in rent is worth it to keep him in my life and a chance at having a future with him. I was hoping there was a middle ground where financial and security can meet somewhere in the middle to make this relationship work. I just have to pay that amount, become a tenant of his house, and hope for the best.

You most certainly do not have to pay that amount and hope for the best. That's prisoner talk / gaslighted trance talk / giving up on yourself. No one is saying you have to do that. Plus, Mustachianism is about taking charge of your life, not letting someone else take control.

If not paying him the $800 ends the relationship, that is probably the best thing that could happen to you.

Staying in your apartment and letting him bend a little after you hold firm IS a middle ground. It's one you TOTALLY have available.

If he's telling you - or you're correctly deducing from his behavior - that that would end the relationship, then the relationship would mean signing up for a highly unfair relationship with all terms set by him, in clear disregard of boundaries you yourself have set. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO THAT.

You may have to face the emotional difficulty of ending the relationship. If you've been through 3 versions of this before, that may be painful. But if you do it while keeping your own apartment, you will be better off than in any previous relationship. That's progress!!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 02:52:17 PM by BicycleB »

Villanelle

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2019, 03:12:51 PM »
So he won't even consider budgeting on a matter that is of great importance to you? It's $800, or the relationship dies?  You pay $800 to basically purchase having this man in your life? 

Yeah, I most certainly don't think you should just suck it up and pay the $800.  That's the opposite of what I think you should do, in fact.  It's not really even about whether the specific number is reasonable.  There are plenty of reasonable ways to decide on what a "reasonable" amount should be.  You don't agree with his one, very specific way, and he's not willing to even consider anything else?

That's... not a partnership. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2019, 03:14:34 PM »
What others have pointed out. Respect your carefully thought out boundaries. Plus if you are handy and he is not, your painting and so on will add value to a house you have no stake in.

Bernard

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2019, 03:39:53 PM »
Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.

But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2019, 03:54:53 PM »
Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.

But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.

I disagree. It's not that his plan is necessarily UNreasonable, although I still think asking for 2/3 of the mortgage is ballsy. But I would argue that a reasonable partner listens and adapts to the other person's needs, and I do not see evidence of that here.

I wanted to jump in on this because I want the OP to know that she is also reasonable.

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2019, 03:58:37 PM »
It seems like most people believe I should just suck it up and pay $800 so that I can stay with him and just trust/hope for the best.

Most people where?  Not here - I donít see anyone saying you should pay $800.

I know we are only hearing one side of the story, but WHY are you so intent on staying in this relationship if your partner doesnít seem to be willing to address any of your concerns/desires related to your living situation?  At the very least he should be fine with you continuing to rent your own place.  Whatís not sustainable about sleeping at each otherís place?

Oh, at least a lot of the first responses were all just talking about the reasonableness of $800.

I am considering a lot of his logic because I wanted to understand and work with where he's coming from too. I've been trying to learn more and about lessons I've learned from here, and other blogs/podcasts about FI and frugality, etc. So I'm not living the ideal way yet, but I'm trying to plan and make changes to get better. (I don't own a car and have started using my bike for groceries, trying to figure out a plan to increase my savings/investments from current 20%, etc.) He's, however, on a different path and plane. He is very frugal himself, and very good at saving money. So he's actually well on his way on his way to FI, without realizing it. But we differ in that, he thinks he paid his dues living frugally for more than a decade and it's now time for him to enjoy a bit of money by getting a nice house, while I'm at a point where I'm trying to save more money. And we also differ, in that for me, saving and investing is important, but not at point of compromising my values or what is important to me, like independence, for example.

His approach to life and finances is very simple, and practical, in a very no-nonsense kind of way. He genuinely thinks this is a good deal for me, considering the math and what I get out of it, and can't understand my problem with it. And it's because he doesn't quite understand my situation or where I'm coming from, because he's never even remotely experienced it. He's never lived with anyone, not even a roommate. He's never been homeless. He's always had parents and family to guide him, back him up, give him hand-outs, etc. So I know he's not coming from a place of bad intentions, but maybe more of ignorance. And it's not something I can blame a person for. And he's excited about the idea of us living together and thinks it will just be perfect and dandy, and I don't think he thinks about any of the risks I worry about.

Yeah, sleeping over each other's house is difficult because of various reasons. I have to travel an hour to get to his place. It's a hassle to pack the bags every time, etc. And we both want to spend more time together.

JLee

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2019, 04:00:13 PM »
Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.

But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.

I disagree. It's not that his plan is necessarily UNreasonable, although I still think asking for 2/3 of the mortgage is ballsy. But I would argue that a reasonable partner listens and adapts to the other person's needs, and I do not see evidence of that here.

I wanted to jump in on this because I want the OP to know that she is also reasonable.

Is it?  I don't know what utility costs are there (probably less than here), but water/electricity/gas/internet for my house is about $450/mo, and then obviously I am responsible for maintenance and repair on top of that.

The financial aspect is the least worrying part of this whole situation, IMO.

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2019, 04:14:28 PM »
I very very strongly disagree with the assertion that the $800 is reasonable. @MS86TO, stay far away from this offer and keep renting this apartment!!!

In my view, the key elements here are that you value your own independence, and do not wish to pay more than $525/mo for his desired luxury level.

The first element is sufficient to imply you should simply stay in your apartment. The offer for him to move in by splitting your rent is reasonable. You've been through being at lovers' mercy before. If he cares about you, he can respect that.

In my opinion, the many details of his logic are all red flags from a relationship standpoint. At every step, he values the exact vision that he desires, does not substantively grasp your concerns, and makes only surface concessions when you articulate your views. Because of this, I highly support your wariness of his offer, and advise you not to accept at any price, even if he relents and reduces to $525 at his place. His conditions are far too controlling and you are way too early in the process of learning to set your own boundaries. Just no, no, no.

His $800 offer is only reasonable if marriage is to be based on his desired luxuries, with you contributing money toward them according to your means, without any compensation for risks taken. That's a bad deal for you on both the emotional and practical levels.

I think this is a good courtship conflict because it illuminates issues that will be bigger problems later. At minimum, if this becomes a marriage, you're going to have to draw many lines and stand firm about them while he argues for what he wants. He will still have family and backing, you'll still have no recourse. I doubt that's a good idea, but if it is, he will pursue it while you live gloriously in your own rented castle, unattainable to him...but already attained by you!

Where is his concern for you? All his thoughts are about him until you interrupt by making multiple reasonable offers that he rejects.

I apologize if overstepping the financial piece is going too far here, but since you mention having been a crown ward, forgive me for remarking that it's understandable to seek love, ideally a secure love that your parents were not able to give. But don't assume any love is the love you need. Hold out for love that values you, not controls you; love that appreciates all of your concerns, not love that invites you into a gilded cage where you risk being kicked out.

You make a lot of sense!

But I guess I'm coming at it with a battle of having love-colored lenses, while minimizing my risks. He doesn't think I have anything to worry about. And that's where we differ.

To your last point about being a crown ward, following my heart and risking things has been my approach to try to fight all the negativity of having this life. My way of fighting this unfortunate situation, is to approach life as if I've never been hurt. It's way easier for me keep a guard up, not trust anyone and just look out for myself. But I see that as letting the situation get to me and be a victim of it.

six-car-habit

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2019, 04:16:24 PM »
***quote "I lose my own security, independence and control over my living conditions. I'd have to give all that up living under his roof. Is it worth it to pay $800 just so I could be with him and lose all those things that I value? "***

 What do you value more - security - independence - and control over living conditions ?   Or living together with a full time partner ?

 Further down the thread you say you have been spending 2 nights a week at each others house for 1.5 years - and "It's not sustainable". Why, Why is it not sustainable ?   It gives you the independence / control / and security you crave.  I think you need to decide which set of needs you want to fill....

  I think $800 is fair for a 1/2 a house plus electricity / water / garbage / sewer / yard / garden / segregated parking, and probably you eating some of " his" food. Painting walls is relatively easy, any doofus should be able to accomplish.  Some guys dont care about knick knack corners, and curtains, and inspirational sayings in old barn wood frames. You may be overthinking your design / fix-it skills, compared to what he values.  He lives with his Mom currently, he wants a female partner , not another mom.

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2019, 04:26:16 PM »
And if you can't that's OK. You need to do what makes you comfortable. If it's important enough to you (and you're important enough to him) then you guys may be able to find a compromise that works for both of you. Until then you would be better off keeping your own place. I've been in a similar situation (still am...er..sort of) but for me I felt that being the "renter" with a fix rate all incluvise rent to be extremely freeing.

Yeah, we both care for each other and want to live together. It's just we have a mismatch about the financial aspects and related details about living together.

Maybe it's our different approach. Because for me living in my boyfriend's house while paying him a monthly rent, is the opposite of freeing. It feels more constricting and like I have less rights/power. But I understand that it means something different for you.

NotJen

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2019, 04:31:30 PM »
Quote
He doesn't think I have anything to worry about. And that's where we differ.

Heís allowed to believe this, and believe in the math that says itís a good deal.  But if you donít think itís fair, it is by definition not a fair deal, and he needs to find a place to compromise.  Itís not cool for him to dismiss your feelings just because he thinks youíre worried over nothing.  Your concerns are valid, whether or not heís personally experienced the same thing.

MS86TO

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2019, 04:51:32 PM »
***quote "I lose my own security, independence and control over my living conditions. I'd have to give all that up living under his roof. Is it worth it to pay $800 just so I could be with him and lose all those things that I value? "***

 What do you value more - security - independence - and control over living conditions ?   Or living together with a full time partner ?

 Further down the thread you say you have been spending 2 nights a week at each others house for 1.5 years - and "It's not sustainable". Why, Why is it not sustainable ?   It gives you the independence / control / and security you crave.  I think you need to decide which set of needs you want to fill....

  I think $800 is fair for a 1/2 a house plus electricity / water / garbage / sewer / yard / garden / segregated parking, and probably you eating some of " his" food. Painting walls is relatively easy, any doofus should be able to accomplish.  Some guys dont care about knick knack corners, and curtains, and inspirational sayings in old barn wood frames. You may be overthinking your design / fix-it skills, compared to what he values.  He lives with his Mom currently, he wants a female partner , not another mom.

I would hope and was trying to figure out a way to have both: live equally with a partner with whom I'll have a loving relationship, while we both have equal risks and stake, considering financials and other aspects.

I guess it's not the end of the world to keep sleeping over each other's houses every week. But there's overhead to it, like travel time, preparing, packing, etc. So for example, he stays over my place Saturday til Sunday so we can spend the two days together, but the weekend is the only time slot and energy I have to do chores/cleaning, and some pampering time for myself. But because he's here then, and he's not here in the other days, I drop everything and just concentrate on him and spending good quality time with him. So even if we're together 1.5 years already, it still feels like we're just perpetually in the "dating" phase still and just experiencing the fun, exciting, romantic stuff, without the real life "together" partnership without progression, if that makes sense.

Well that's the thing, he doesn't care about any of that stuff. All of his furniture are from the 80s, given to him by family, and his place just has the bare minimum to function. He had a non-working clock on the wall for more than 5 years, his wooden floor tiles keep popping out when you walk on them and he just couldn't care less. For me, having a home means making your place a joy to live in everyday, that functions to your values, while balancing costs and quality.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2019, 05:03:49 PM »
So you drop everything that would make life easier during the week to have 2 fun days with him when he is at your place.  What do the 2 of you do the weekends you are at his place?  And really how can you build a deeper relationship when the nitty-gritty is not being addressed?  How is he going to react when you want to spend weekend time on chores?

Like La Bibliotecaria Feroz I  put my (ex) husband's needs and wants ahead of mine, while he also put his needs and wants ahead of mine.  Believe me, the more you put their wants ahead of yours, the more it becomes an expected behaviour.

englishteacheralex

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2019, 05:17:10 PM »
I've been happily married for six years. I had a very strong personal belief against moving in with a boyfriend. It was not something I was willing to compromise on. If my now-husband had lived somewhere very inconvenient to me when we were dating, I would have considered moving to a rental that was closer to him, but never would I have considered moving in with him.

I'm aware that lots and lots of people move in together without being married, and it works out great for plenty of them.

However, personally, the idea of living together without being married cluttered things up too much for me emotionally. Too much risk. Too many weird conversations about money. The scenario OP describes here gives me hives.

The only reason I'm chiming in here is not to condemn people for whom the arrangement works, but to validate OP: you don't have to live with a boyfriend just because the dominant cultural narrative is that you live with someone as the step between casual dating and marriage. It's possible to skip that step and be perfectly happy and have a healthy marriage.

Omy

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2019, 05:24:46 PM »
If you have broken up with him before, it is statistically likely you will break up again.

If you have only been seeing each other two days a week and are planning to now be with each other 7 days a week, that is a huge adjustment that will likely end in break up.

You are taking all of the risk by moving. You will be living in his place on his terms. This will either cause you to resent him or cause you to walk on eggshells to keep the relationship good so you won't lose your home.

If he truly loved you, he would not be negotiating so hard. He would be thrilled to have you with him every day and wouldn't worry about a couple hundred dollars. And vice versa.

Will it take you longer to get to work or cost you more to commute to work from his home? If so, resentment will build. There are so many red flags in your posts that I would stay where you are and continue to date until you negotiate a plan that works for both of you - or break up now to avoid more heartbreak and resentment in the future.

spartana

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2019, 06:00:39 PM »
Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.

But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.

I disagree. It's not that his plan is necessarily UNreasonable, although I still think asking for 2/3 of the mortgage is ballsy. But I would argue that a reasonable partner listens and adapts to the other person's needs, and I do not see evidence of that here.

I wanted to jump in on this because I want the OP to know that she is also reasonable.

Is it?  I don't know what utility costs are there (probably less than here), but water/electricity/gas/internet for my house is about $450/mo, and then obviously I am responsible for maintenance and repair on top of that.

The financial aspect is the least worrying part of this whole situation, IMO.
I agree. I had a paid off house but I still had expenses. Not only utilities (often much higher with a second person  and more kinds with a home compared to an apt) but property taxes, insurances, maintenance and repairs, plus the value of my time to do them. As well as the opportunity cost of having my down payment plus closing costs locked into a house rather than invested. So should I let BF move in for free just because I have no mortgage? I think when those of us say $800/month is reasonable, we are talking from a purely financial standpoint - lower all inclusive rent for OP for a nicer place then she currently has. From a relationship stand the BF is being unreasonable to insist that his plan is the only plan that matters and she can take it or leave it. That attitude would he a major deal breaker for me.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 06:04:32 PM by spartana »

Jtrey17

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2019, 06:41:38 PM »
Let's move past doors number one, two and three and see what's in the big box.  Oh, it's a big winner.  (I'm referring to the old show "Let's make a deal" in case you have no idea what I'm talking about).

And the answer is:  Don't move in with him.  That is 100% the best thing to do.  You get to keep your own apartment and he gets to do whatever the hell he wants to do with his spare money and with his house.  It's pretty clear that you're both on pages of completely different books.
Agree! I wouldnít move in with a guy who wants to charge me anything for rent. Thatís a roommate, not a lover imo.

JLee

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2019, 07:57:05 PM »
Let's move past doors number one, two and three and see what's in the big box.  Oh, it's a big winner.  (I'm referring to the old show "Let's make a deal" in case you have no idea what I'm talking about).

And the answer is:  Don't move in with him.  That is 100% the best thing to do.  You get to keep your own apartment and he gets to do whatever the hell he wants to do with his spare money and with his house.  It's pretty clear that you're both on pages of completely different books.
Agree! I wouldnít move in with a guy who wants to charge me anything for rent. Thatís a roommate, not a lover imo.

Would you let a guy move in with you and not contribute to your housing costs?

mozar

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2019, 10:03:20 PM »
I wouldn't let a male partner move in with me for free but I would let a female partner move in for free. Because men make more. If I trusted someone enough to be married to them I would expect that there would be times the either one of us could be unemployed and unable to contribute . For me there's a difference between cohabitation and marriage.


Anoushka

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2019, 10:13:00 PM »

- Before I met him, I've made a well-thought out decision that I will never move in with someone again before marriage. I've done it 3 times already, and each time ended up disastrous for me financially, and emotionally. I haven't been smart financially with relationships before, and have just been following my heart. But each time, had real-life negative financial consequences that has made me suffer. I've come to the realization that if we weren't ready to be married and go all-in emotionally, financially and make that leap of faith, then we're not ready to move in. I can't take the emotional toll of being on a trial live-in situation over and over again. I believe if two people really love each other whole-heartedly, then they can work through any issues, and are willing to just make that leap of faith. I am ready for that now with him, but he isn't. Because he has never moved in with someone before and is thus really terrified of it, I've been understanding and took it into consideration. So living with him before marriage is already a  compromise on what I believe.

- The other factor is that I don't have a back-up plan, if things go wrong. I am a crown ward (orphan), and I don't have family I can rely on for help. I am on my own, self-made and have just been pulling on my own resourcefulness with any problem that comes up. If we live together in his house and he decides he doesn't want me there anymore, I'd be literally homeless. (This has happened a few times before, and I've just had to rely on either my own savings or people's kindness. ) I also live in a new city and I don't have friends here yet that I feel I can ask for help in that way. Plus I have 2 cats where no one in my city accepts in airbnb rentals, at a reasonable price. Meanwhile, he has supportive and wealthy parents living nearby, who have helped him financially, even offering to pay for some of his home renovations. He is living with them right now for free the last few months while he sorts out buying his new home. In the worse case scenario, my situation is much scarier and I have a lot more to lose.

This time around, I want to make sure that I am financially smarter, instead of just "going with the flow" and just hoping for the best. That we are both invested in a future and a home together and that if things go wrong, no one overly suffers. The amount of money is part of the issue (not really because I could easily afford what he's asking), but for me, there are more things that are just as important, if not more: values, security, risks, opportunity costs, independence, emotional investments, etc. For him, it's just dollars and cents and he thinks his offer is generous enough already.

Where do we meet in a mutually benefical place?

What happened to change your decision not to make the same mistake again? Just don't do it. You need to be financially and emotionally smarter than in the past. If he loves you, he loves you, whether or not you change your plans and do what he wants. It doesn't matter if the math works. You mention that you're in a new area and don't have a lot of friends--it might be time to focus on building up a life and a social circle for yourself that includes more than just him. In a healthy relationship, your partner will support you in that. I agree that your post is full of red flags. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but a clueless guy can do a lot of damage too.

minimustache1985

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2019, 10:23:10 PM »
Purely based on what I read, this man has a sound plan and seems to be very reasonable.

But you are not ready to commit to a relationship that deep, and that's okay.
Stay in your current place until moving in with him seems to be the only logical step forward, at a point where you both are sure that you want to get married. Until then, see where this relationship takes you.

I disagree. It's not that his plan is necessarily UNreasonable, although I still think asking for 2/3 of the mortgage is ballsy. But I would argue that a reasonable partner listens and adapts to the other person's needs, and I do not see evidence of that here.

I wanted to jump in on this because I want the OP to know that she is also reasonable.

Is it?  I don't know what utility costs are there (probably less than here), but water/electricity/gas/internet for my house is about $450/mo, and then obviously I am responsible for maintenance and repair on top of that.

The financial aspect is the least worrying part of this whole situation, IMO.
I agree. I had a paid off house but I still had expenses. Not only utilities (often much higher with a second person  and more kinds with a home compared to an apt) but property taxes, insurances, maintenance and repairs, plus the value of my time to do them. As well as the opportunity cost of having my down payment plus closing costs locked into a house rather than invested. So should I let BF move in for free just because I have no mortgage? I think when those of us say $800/month is reasonable, we are talking from a purely financial standpoint - lower all inclusive rent for OP for a nicer place then she currently has. From a relationship stand the BF is being unreasonable to insist that his plan is the only plan that matters and she can take it or leave it. That attitude would he a major deal breaker for me.
This, 100%.

Is $800 unreasonable?  No.  Is making zero compromises with a romantic partner unreasonable?  YES.

OP, if you think he is just naive and well meaning, Iíd consider moving nearer to but not in with him.  Iíd bet you could find a true roommate situation nearby for $800 (or less, you guessed a roommate might pay him $500-$600 though I assume utilities etc on top of that) to make it convenient enough to stay over frequently but without the stress of being homeless should the relationship end.

FWIW my husband and I were long distance for years, and when I moved to our current city I insisted on getting an apartment.  While I was reasonably confident we were heading towards marriage I also didnít want to go from weekend visits to round-the-clock togetherness, it would have been challenging for both of us.  After a few months my apartment got very little use, but it was there and mine had I needed it.

AliEli

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2019, 10:36:32 PM »
No, don't do it. You have described a man who is very self centred, and in your initial post gave a very good run down of why he is being unreasonable. He went and bought a house without your input 1.5 years into your relationship. You've described him ignoring things around his house that are broken - it's not mustachian to have a useless clock on the wall for 5 years. He does not sound like he is a person who will pay you the attention that you need to feel safe. Stay put, and if the relationship survives that's great, if not you will find someone better because you won't be left to pick the pieces up while you are homeless again.

If you were my friend telling me this, I'd give you a hug and say that we should go out and have a girls night out this Saturday and put you and your needs back on your own radar.

Mini-Mer

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2019, 06:55:58 AM »
Another vote for keeping your nice apartment.   I think you're right to be cautious about investing in a home that isn't in some way yours.  If not for your own sake, then for the cats.  You've said the cats would be a problem if you needed to leave - hard to find a short-term place where you could take them, etc.  It's valuable to have a place that your cats are welcome!

On which note, has your guy ever lived with cats?  Has he ever lived with cats (or anyone) in his place, that he owns and is looking at as a financial investment?  Cats don't pick up after themselves, they shed, they track litter, they puke on things.  Often nice new carpets.  If they're feeling sick, they may pee too.  (I love cats!  But they're jerks.)  Let your guy work out any new-homeowner, huge-financial-investment issues he has with a renter (and maybe their pets). 

The long commute between your places is a hardship - so maybe when your lease is up, look at renting a new nice apartment closer to his new house? 

Captain FIRE

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2019, 07:24:40 AM »
It seems to me you are speaking different languages.

His perspective
He is focused on the finances.  He is confused why you don't want to move in with him and why you are balking at $800, when it's less than you pay now.  He's helping you save money AND you'd get to live in a bigger/nicer space, and save time going back and forth between two apartments. 

Note: I agree with previous posters that $800 he proposed is a reasonable sum for rent+utilities+internet.  I think paying for a portion of "his groceries" on top of yours is super weird, so I just recommend you keep groceries entirely out of the equation (recast it as just rent+utilities+internet even if he says it's groceries too).  He definitely has more carrying costs than just his mortgage - there's mortgage+taxes+insurance+repairs/maintenance+utilities (more than you think!)+sweat equity for upkeep (leaves, snow, mowing, etc.).  Yes, he is gaining equity in his house - but so are you with saving an extra $375 ($325+internet) a month.

Your perspective
You are focused on the emotions.  You have been burnt by past experiences and growing up with no one to fall back on.  This has made you extra sensitive to becoming interdependent without assurances he can't give.

While *logically* this move actually gains you more security (set up an agreement so you have renters rights) by saving you money to put aside for an emergency fund or house, it doesn't work for you because moving in is not really about the money.  (Although it's understandable that's what he's hearing because you've been focused on explaining why $800 doesn't sound right to you, rather than your overall discomfort with living together.)  From what I'm hearing, you're not ready to move in because you see it as a loss of control for you without gaining anything.  (If you were ready, you'd be excited to spend more time, perhaps characterize it as "taking your relationship to the next level".)

My perspective
It doesn't sound like you are hearing each other, and if you can't work through these issues, marriage seems far off. 

Although I think a message of breaking up if you don't move in is problematic, it really depends on how the message was conveyed.  Did he say "If you don't move in, I'll break up with you?"  Or did he say something like "This hour drive is too much for me, I want to spend more time with you and I see this as the best way to do it.  If you don't want to spend more time with me too, then I don't see our relationship as having a future."  Neither one is perfect communication, but they are entirely different messages.

As such, I'm willing to withhold judgment there.  Similarly, I'm withholding judgment on whether he's ignored and dismissed your fears about living together (which would be a red flag).  I don't know how explicit you've been in your conversations, whether he's been optimistic and supportive about the challenges or dismissive of your fears.

Yes, it can be difficult to move into someone else's place.  I did that - and he had been living there for years.  I was wary too, after having gotten burnt once before.  However, I was willing to do it because I felt our relationship was different than the prior one AND I felt it was less about convenience (as with the first failed one, where I moved in way too early) and more about the next step/headed to engagement.  He was willing to make changes such as remove his artwork and put up mine so it felt more like "our" place, but ultimately he chose it, it was largely his furniture, and we weren't going to make changes like repainting a perfectly fine room just so I could say it was ours.  Time helped me settled in (and within 4 years we got engaged, renovated, married, and sold it).

So based on my perspective.  I think you've gotten hung up on whether the $800 is fair or not, when that's the wrong question.  It's about whether you are ready to move in together.  Do you want to move in with him?  If so, why?

If not, try looking into other options.  Can you move closer together so you see each other more often, but maintain your own separate place?  One with a roommate so you can save more money? I think once you have a bigger emergency fund you may be less stressed about getting assurances that things will work out that no one can rightfully give.  Then you can rearrange your schedules to see each other weeknights, and free up some weekends.  And use some of that free time to build a social network that sounds really critical to your emotional health!

On the other hand, if you really wanted to move in there are loads of threads that provide ideas for SOs financial splits on living together in one person's house, if the proposed $ doesn't sound right to you (e.g. fair market rent, fair market rent with a discount for being a gf, split of costs based on respective salaries).  Note that you may end up in the same place after running the numbers!  You'll need to sort through them, as a lot are how to deal with the moving partner taking on additional unwanted costs (rather than saving money as in your case).
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 10:56:21 AM by Captain FIRE »

Ann

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Re: Live-in Relationship Arrangement and Finances
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2019, 10:43:31 AM »
Quote

He wants me to pay $800 flat fee for his groceries, internet, and other expenses.
Maybe I missed it later on, but I am uncertain what this flat fee covers.

You said that he intended for the $800 to go towards *his* share of the groceries?  But not your?  Does that mean it goes toward *his* share of the internet, but not yours?

It is hard for me to know if $800 would feel fair to *me* without knowing exactly what the breakdown of expenses are.

Electricity?
Water?
Gas (if applicable)?
Internet?
Yard care (if he elects to pay someone, does he pay it in full?  Or split it?  And if he protests, does he say ďfine, we donít hire anyone ó but then YOU are responsible?Ē
Garbage
House repairs / renovations ó with a house this can be many : water heater goes out, leaky roof, paint for walls, etc
Cable (does he want this?  Do you? )
Groceries ó do you just buy yours?   Do you split grocery trips 50/50?
HOA fees (if applicable)?

It is really unclear what the $800 is supposed to cover.  Especially since you phrased it as covering some of *his* expenses ó not your share.  Because if it is all inclusive is can seem fair, but if you are paying 2/3 of mortgage but are still responsible for *your* share of everything, it seems wildly unfair.