Author Topic: little help please  (Read 2542 times)

Crazycarl

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little help please
« on: February 15, 2017, 11:24:18 AM »
I just want to run the numbers by everyone to make sure I choose the correct path.

Our Gross income is about 125k MFJ

57k wife, 68k me

after taxes, our AGI this year was about 97k

We started late on the maxing tax deferred accounts last year and put a bunch into a taxable vanguard account and my ROTH.

As of this year, both are set to max by years end.

Should we both be maxing a Roth or the tIRA?

a traditional IRA lowers the amount of taxes you need to pay correct? so if everything stays the same as last year, our AGI would have been 11000 lower (88k) if we both maxed out a tIRA? I feel like I should know this but just want to make sure I get everything correct when setting up all the auto deducts this year. I had to do a lot of account transfers and moving, and lost track of how much went into which accounts. Trying to now simplify everything this year...

Thanks for all the help!

dandarc

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Re: little help please
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2017, 11:32:17 AM »
Question - do you have anything on the list at the link below that would make your MAGI substantially higher than your AGI?

http://fairmark.com/retirement/roth-accounts/contributions-to-roth-accounts/modified-adjusted-gross-income/

If I'm reading this right, you put $5500 into your Roth IRA for 2016, and nothing for your spouse?

If so, and your MAGI = AGI you can recharacterize your $5500 to traditional up to your tax filing deadline (plus extension, if applicable), and put an additional $5500 into a tIRA for your spouse, also until your tax filing deadline (no extension).  For 2016 - the return you're preparing and filing now.

tarheeldan

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Re: little help please
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2017, 11:34:48 AM »
The Traditional IRA deduction applies to MFJ up to 184,000 MAGI, so yes you could reduce your taxable income by 11k (13k if you are both over 50).

As to what you should be doing, here's MDM's post on investment order:
"HAT           
0. Establish an emergency fund to your satisfaction           
1. Contribute to your 401k up to any company match           
2. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~5% or more above the 10-year Treasury note yield.           
3. Max HSA             
4. Max Traditional IRA or Roth (or backdoor Roth) based on income level           
5. Max 401k (if 401k fees are lower than available in an IRA, or if you need the 401k deduction to be eligible for a tIRA, swap #4 and #5)           
6. Fund mega backdoor Roth if applicable           
7. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~3% or more above the 10-year Treasury note yield.           
8. Invest in a taxable account with any extra.           
           
WHY           
0. Give yourself at least enough buffer to avoid worries about bouncing checks           
1. Company match rates are likely the highest percent return you can get on your money           
2. When the guaranteed return is this high, take it.           
3. HSA funds are totally tax free when used for medical expenses, making the HSA better than either traditional or Roth IRAs.           
4. Rule of thumb: traditional if current marginal rate is 25% or higher; Roth if 10% or lower; flip a coin in between. See also Traditional versus Roth.
   See Credits can make Traditional better than Roth for lower incomes and other posts in that thread about some exceptions to the rule.
   The 'Calculations' tab in the Case Study Spreadsheet can show marginal rates for savings or withdrawals.
5. See #4 for choice of traditional or Roth for 401k           
6. Applicability depends on the rules for the specific 401k           
7. Again, take the risk-free return if high enough           
8. Because earnings, even if taxed, are beneficial"

From: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order-65299/msg1333153/#msg1333153

dandarc

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Re: little help please
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2017, 11:42:32 AM »
The Traditional IRA deduction applies to MFJ up to 184,000 MAGI, so yes you could reduce your taxable income by 11k (13k if you are both over 50).
No it doesn't.  If you yourself have access to a retirement plan at work, Up to $98K MAGI (2016) for a full deduction.  The higher limit is if you don't have access to a retirement plan but your spouse does.  If neither spouse is covered by a retirement plan at work, the tIRA is always deductible.

OP's post reads to me like both spouses are covered by retirement plans at work, so $98K.  They are under it, but only just, and only if they don't have certain items (student loan interest or tuition deduction, tIRA deduction) that would cause MAGI to be greater than the AGI stated.

tarheeldan

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Re: little help please
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2017, 11:49:15 AM »
The Traditional IRA deduction applies to MFJ up to 184,000 MAGI, so yes you could reduce your taxable income by 11k (13k if you are both over 50).
No it doesn't.  If you yourself have access to a retirement plan at work, Up to $98K MAGI (2016) for a full deduction.  The higher limit is if you don't have access to a retirement plan but your spouse does.  If neither spouse is covered by a retirement plan at work, the tIRA is always deductible.

OP's post reads to me like both spouses are covered by retirement plans at work, so $98K.  They are under it, but only just, and only if they don't have certain items (student loan interest or tuition deduction, tIRA deduction) that would cause MAGI to be greater than the AGI stated.

Crap, sorry OP. I was sloppy - did a quick Google and was looking at the Roth income requirements, the IRA deduction limits were on another tab on the same page. Phaseout range is 98k to 118k like dandarc says. ETA: For 2017 the range is 99-119.

Crazycarl

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Re: little help please
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2017, 01:09:22 PM »
Thanks all

0. Establish an emergency fund to your satisfaction  DONE         
1. Contribute to your 401k up to any company match  DONE           
2. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~5% or more above the 10-year Treasury note yield.     DONE       
3. Max HSA   Not offered          
4. Max Traditional IRA or Roth (or backdoor Roth) based on income level   DONE         
5. Max 401k (if 401k fees are lower than available in an IRA, or if you need the 401k deduction to be eligible for a tIRA, swap #4 and #5)   DONE         
6. Fund mega backdoor Roth if applicable  Not available          
7. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~3% or more above the 10-year Treasury note yield.  None         
8. Invest in a taxable account with any extra.   



The Traditional IRA deduction applies to MFJ up to 184,000 MAGI, so yes you could reduce your taxable income by 11k (13k if you are both over 50).
No it doesn't.  If you yourself have access to a retirement plan at work, Up to $98K MAGI (2016) for a full deduction.  The higher limit is if you don't have access to a retirement plan but your spouse does.  If neither spouse is covered by a retirement plan at work, the tIRA is always deductible.

OP's post reads to me like both spouses are covered by retirement plans at work, so $98K.  They are under it, but only just, and only if they don't have certain items (student loan interest or tuition deduction, tIRA deduction) that would cause MAGI to be greater than the AGI stated.

I forgot that I have to still meet with the CPA for my rental properties, so my income will likely go up more and push me closer to 110k :(

I only had about $160 in student loan interest.
Can I just call up Vanguard and have them switch all my 2016 ROTH additions to my tIRA account?

my MAGI is only about $1000 different than AGI

tarheeldan

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Re: little help please
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2017, 01:15:17 PM »
Can I just call up Vanguard and have them switch all my 2016 ROTH additions to my tIRA account?

From Vanguard - I didn't know you could do it until October!

"You can recharacterize for a tax year through October 15 of the next year (and sometimes a day or two later, if that date falls on a weekend), even if you already filed your tax return.
For example, if you file your tax return by April 18, 2017, you have until October 17, 2017, to file a 2016 recharacterization.
Learn how Vanguard reports recharacterizations for your taxes (https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insights/taxcenter/rothira-conversions)
Visit irs.gov for more details about Roth IRA recharacterizations (https://investor.vanguard.com/external-site-message?url=http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Retirement-Plans-FAQs-regarding-IRAs-Recharacterization-of-Roth-Rollovers-and-Conversions)
How to initiate a recharacterization
Recharacterizations can't be completed online, so use this form to get started:
Download & print an IRA Recharacterization Form PDF: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/s220.pdf
Or call us at 800-984-5931, and one of our retirement professionals will be happy to help."

dandarc

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Re: little help please
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2017, 02:08:46 PM »
If your MAGI is $110K, you should figure how much of a deduction you can take - that's in the phase-out range for the traditional IRA deduction.  Then call Vanguard and recharacterize that amount - no point in making traditional IRA contribution if you can't deduct it.

Have you contributed to an IRA for your spouse for 2016?  Same deal there - figure how much you can deduct and do that as traditional, do the rest as Roth.

Maybe your CPA will do this for you?