Lead Paint?

[MustardTiger]

I recently saw this episode of John Oliver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUizvEjR-0Uand I started worrying about my house.  Not super worried about myself but I have a 3 week old daughter which is causing me to actually consider safety.

3 years ago we bought a foreclosed house that had good bones but was pretty much a disaster inside (looked like a crackhouse).  Luckily the wife trusted my vision and liked the 90k price tag.  We have replaced almost everything inside from new flooring throughout, new paint everywhere, new interior/exterior doors, trim, and moulding.  The house was built in 1958 and is doubtful it has been updated at all so I assume the original paint had lead.  How much of a concern would this be if everything has been painted over?  Is this shit in the air or do I just make sure my daughter doesn't eat the wall.  As a special education teacher my first goal is to keep her out of my classes.

[Beardog]

One potential issue with lead paint is lead dust/chips flaking off of windows when you open and shut them.  If your windows were previously painted with lead paint, this could be a problem.  Also, there can be lead in the soil around your house if there was peeling lead paint on your house exterior.  Depending upon how much lead is in the soil, this may be able to be controlled with plantings like grass.

If you don't have peeling surfaces that were previously painted with lead, that's all to the good.  Page 18 of this publication on line has a summary of the common hazards:

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-09/documents/lead_in_your_home_brochure_land_color_508.pdf

Good luck!  It's scary stuff but there is alot of information out there to help you.

[seattlecyclone]

Basically just make sure your daughter doesn't eat the wall (or any paint chips). If you ever do any sanding or other work that could cause paint dust to enter the air, keep kids away and wear a mask yourself. Be sure to clean up all the dust real well (like with a mop or damp cloth) when it settles. Monitor the condition of the new paint to be sure it doesn't chip away and reveal the lead paint underneath.

[tobitonic]

We dealt with this by specifically buying newer than 1978 (the cutoff for lead paint in houses). I won't tell you to move, but if it's something that'll continue to bother you...I'd move. Especially if you plan on having more kids.

[DeltaBond]

Was all the paint used before 1978 lead paint??

[bacchi]

You can buy an inexpensive lead testing kit online or at a big box store. The EPA recommends a few.

https://www.epa.gov/lead/lead-test-kits

Test the interior walls, siding, and exterior window trim. I would guess that the interior walls are lead free. Your soil, as mentioned above, is probably contaminated around the house.

[MrsDinero]

I have friends who went through this a couple years ago with their house.  When they got married they bought an older house and were slowly DIY updating it, even after the kids were born. 

Because they were still updating the house, replacing electrical, replacing windows and doors, ripping up old flooring, etc their kids were actually diagnosed with lead poisoning.  The baby had higher levels than the school age kid.  They immediately stopped their current project, had the house tested and almost every surface of the walls had lead paint even after a professional cleaning.  The health official said it was all the dust from the projects that had seeped into all the places where a vacuum and mop could not reach (ducts, corners, crevices, etc), their only course of action was encasement.

After getting an estimate on how much it would cost to remove all the lead, they decided to walk away from the house.  They were able to get a loan at a ridiculous interest rate but the amount borrowed would put them immediately underwater. 

ETA:  Theirs was probably a more extreme case of what the result can be, but the biggest thing is to hire a professional to do the testing.  Until they had someone come out and explain the extent of the situation they were prepared to work on getting rid of all the lead paint in their house.  Once they realized it would cost more money than it was worth, they made the decision to walk away (after exhausting all other avenues).

[GuitarStv]

Was all the paint used before 1978 lead paint??

Most of them.  Lead was used to make the white base that tints are added to.

[FLBiker]

Was all the paint used before 1978 lead paint??

Most of them.  Lead was used to make the white base that tints are added to.

What about varnishes / shellac?  Our trim is all wood-colored (house is from 1964).  I googled it but found mixed info.

[Cwadda]

Hi there,

I worked at an environmental consulting firm and worked with asbestos, mold, PCBs, and lead. I would recommend hiring a consulting firm to go in and sample. There's an XRF machine they use that takes readings on specific elements. My guess is this would cost you about $500-600. I wouldn't recommend a DIY testing kit. Using an environmental specialist is doing your due diligence. It'll help you in the long run if you plan on selling the house, even if it doesn't have any lead-based paint.

Maybe check with the previous owners/real estate folks to see if they have any previous scientific records?

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Was all the paint used before 1978 lead paint??

Most of them.  Lead was used to make the white base that tints are added to.

What about varnishes / shellac?  Our trim is all wood-colored (house is from 1964).  I googled it but found mixed info.

My 1910s stained wood trim is lead-free, to the eternal shock of window contractors. It has been painted over with white, but apparently well after 1978.

[Le Dérisoire]

Wow that's worrisome. I live in a house built in the 1920' (renting) and the paint outside is falling apart. The paint around the windows is even falling inside the house. Even if the new paint is lead free, the older paint under it might be full of lead.

There will be a baby soon here so I guess I should check it out sooner than later.

I’ll try to find a lab where I can send them a sample.

[OmahaSteph]

I have friends who went through this a couple years ago with their house.  When they got married they bought an older house and were slowly DIY updating it, even after the kids were born. 

Because they were still updating the house, replacing electrical, replacing windows and doors, ripping up old flooring, etc their kids were actually diagnosed with lead poisoning.  The baby had higher levels than the school age kid.  They immediately stopped their current project, had the house tested and almost every surface of the walls had lead paint even after a professional cleaning.  The health official said it was all the dust from the projects that had seeped into all the places where a vacuum and mop could not reach (ducts, corners, crevices, etc), their only course of action was encasement.

After getting an estimate on how much it would cost to remove all the lead, they decided to walk away from the house.  They were able to get a loan at a ridiculous interest rate but the amount borrowed would put them immediately underwater. 

ETA:  Theirs was probably a more extreme case of what the result can be, but the biggest thing is to hire a professional to do the testing.  Until they had someone come out and explain the extent of the situation they were prepared to work on getting rid of all the lead paint in their house.  Once they realized it would cost more money than it was worth, they made the decision to walk away (after exhausting all other avenues).

I went through something similar, even though we finished most of the restoration before even tying to conceive. The dust and kids crawling on the floor is what gets you. Have the house tested. You won't sleep at night until you do, trust me. It's a NIGHTMARE.

[MsPeacock]

Most importantly your child's lead level can be checked with a simple blood tests. It was required in Texas and Maryland,many I assume in other areas. Lead can come off all sorts of old house buts, so it is wise to have the blood levels checked. Talk to your pediatrician.

I read recently that a can of paint pre 1978 was almost 50% lead!

[GuitarStv]

Most importantly your child's lead level can be checked with a simple blood tests. It was required in Texas and Maryland,many I assume in other areas. Lead can come off all sorts of old house buts, so it is wise to have the blood levels checked. Talk to your pediatrician.

I read recently that a can of paint pre 1978 was almost 50% lead!

Isn't getting a blood level test for your child kinda like closing the barn doors after the horses got out?

[MustardTiger]

The more I read the more worrying it is.  I did an inventory of possible surfaces in my house.  Doors and door trim are all changed but the entryways to the living room and kitchen, as well as the closets and windowsills are only painted over.  Walls all appear to be in good shape with no peeling, etc.  I don't have to worry at all about the exterior as it is all brick.  I have changed half the windows but the originals are just aluminum with no paint.

I love a lot of things about our house.  A large 1/3 acre lot with mature oak trees, very centrally located to both our places of work (me 1 mile, her 5 miles) and right next to shopping, schools, etc.  Also we have a very low payment of ~700 including taxes and insurance.

I have toyed with the idea of moving in <5 years before this issue.  My mother in law will be moving in with us in 2-3 years and we are thinking of having another kid which would suddenly make our 3 bed house a bit small.  We also have ~70k equity in this house due to improvements we have done.

Even though the idea of a brand new house in the more desirable (basically means white) side of town is tempting, I like the fact that we can comfortably cover all bills with just my salary which gives my wife the option to stay home for as long as she wants.

[MustardTiger]

Not really. The damage starts small and accumulates most of the time. Finding it early lets you change environment and diet before it worsens.


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How does diet affect lead exposure?

[Sturton]

If the paint is not peeling you are fine.  The findings are that most of the potential lead exposure in a house with lead paint is in the windows opening and closing (as someone mentioned), and so cleaning those regularly does the trick.  By that I mean taking a paper towel, wetting it, cleaning off the windowsill (the part where the window opens and closes), and throwing the paper towel away in the regular trash.

My house is chockfull of lead paint and I had a friend who is a professional lead paint inspector, so I got all paranoid and had our small child tested - nope, not a breath of lead contamination in him.

If you have peeling paint, the best course is to get a painter who is lead-certified, who will do professional remediation.  I don't mean half an inch flaking off on a wall, I mean a whole wall or side of the house or whatever.  They will sheathe it in plastic, remove the lead, and take the whole mess away.  But if you keep things painted regularly, this will never be necessary.

[MsPeacock]

Most importantly your child's lead level can be checked with a simple blood tests. It was required in Texas and Maryland,many I assume in other areas. Lead can come off all sorts of old house buts, so it is wise to have the blood levels checked. Talk to your pediatrician.

I read recently that a can of paint pre 1978 was almost 50% lead!

Isn't getting a blood level test for your child kinda like closing the barn doors after the horses got out?

No. Lead exposure can come from other places (toys, city water in crappy pipes, etc) and it is treatable, so you have to identify if you have it. That is why testing is mandated. If there is a positive blood test then you have to identify the source of exposure. Maybe your paint is fine but it turns out that your city water is full of lead, for example.

[CindyBS]

I live in a house that is 100+ years old.  I wouldn't worry too much about lead paint, it is one of those things that can be a big problem, but the majority of people who live in old houses do not have an issue.

Our pediatrician considers every child in our community at risk for lead poisoning due to the age of the houses.  My kids tested in the lowest levels for years, and when the youngest was about 5 we finally stopped.   I would recommend lead testing your daughter for sure, but beyond that you don't need to do more unless it is indicated.  Out of all my friends in the community, only 1 had kids with high lead levels.  Her husband is a contractor and they think he was bringing it home on his clothes. 

New houses can be toxic as well.  Some of the vinyls, and other plastic products can outgas for years. 

[garion]

Find a risk assessor to test for lead and identify risk areas. From what I have read, post-WWII houses don't always have interior lead paint at all. Other options were cheaper at that point, so houses built for richer people were more likely to have lead. So this might not be an issue at all, and it would help your peace of mind to get an inspection.

There are coatings you can put on windowsills etc that seal in lead for a time and also taste bitter to prevent kids from biting at them.

Also, if it turns out that there is lead, I would avoid doing any more renovations myself, especially with a newborn in the house. Hire a lead certified professional to take care of it and go stay somewhere else with the baby.

[MrFrugalChicago]

Most importantly your child's lead level can be checked with a simple blood tests. It was required in Texas and Maryland,many I assume in other areas. Lead can come off all sorts of old house buts, so it is wise to have the blood levels checked. Talk to your pediatrician.

I read recently that a can of paint pre 1978 was almost 50% lead!

If your child tests positive for lead, you already lost! Your kid is going to drop 10 IQ points.

Not worth messing with lead. One reason I won't live in an old house.

[Gimesalot]

I have had several friends whose children have tested with high lead levels.  In most cases, it was not the house but the outdoor areas, such as city parks and school playgrounds, that ended up having the high levels of lead.

[forummm]

Lead is so bad for kids that you want their blood level to be 0. Any of it is bad. It's progressively worse the more you have. But they keep learning that even smaller amounts are harmful. If I had an older house and a kid I would make sure it was lead free or go crazy getting it remediated safely.

[forummm]

I have had several friends whose children have tested with high lead levels.  In most cases, it was not the house but the outdoor areas, such as city parks and school playgrounds, that ended up having the high levels of lead.

A lot of industrial areas and surrounding areas are contaminated. There are places you shouldn't even grow food for human consumption because of the soil contaminants. The lead in gasoline also created a lot in the soil near roads. How much is left now varies a lot.

[OmahaSteph]

If the paint is not peeling you are fine. 

This is simply not true.

[MustardTiger]

So what is the solution?  Am I breathing in this shit just by being indoors?

[Sturton]

No, no, you are not at risk if your place is not peeling.  (I don't know why OmahaSteph said that's not true — it would have helped if she had elaborated.)  Don't go sanding your paint, but just keep things painted as usual.  Here's one reason you might worry even less: due to a cascade of things going wrong in my house, a plaster ceiling in one room collapsed (not while we were home, thankfully).  So the experts came in and gave a huge song-and-dance about how much it was going to cost to seal off the room and put on the masks and remediate the lead which presumably now all over the room, lingering in the air, etc.  But first I insist they test the ceiling, paint, dust, etc.  It turned out that the ceiling had only ever been whitewashed, with non-lead paint, since the house was first built 110 years ago, and there was not a bit of lead in any of the remains. 

Now I'm not saying there's no lead in your house or your paint.  The chances are great there there is.  But there is absolutely no need for panic.  If the lead is contained — like painted over – it is not going to jump off your walls and down your throats.  Keep your windowsills cleaned in the seasons you open and close the windows.  Paint things before they begin to peel.  Read up on lead so you will not panic.  Then proceed not to panic.

[RetirementDreaming]

The first house I purchased was built in 1961.  For $100 someone came to my house and tested dozens of surfaces with a machine.  The tester told me lead paint was expensive and track houses (not custom) rarely had lead paint inside.  It was usually found on the exterior trim of the house where people splurged.  It was unusual for lead paint to be inside at least in my neighbor - small, track housing.  I had a young nephew at the time and low windows.  I was worried the window castings were lead based paint but they weren't. 

The test of my house showed the exterior trim of house was at one time painted with lead paint and the exterior of the medicine cabinet in the bathroom.  I repainted the exterior trim.  The tester suggested I don't plant any vegetables in the planter beds up close to the house and keep the trim in good repair (ie paint it again if it starts to peel and never sand down).  I also replaced the medicine cabinet. 

If you are worried about it I would get it tested.  It was $100 well spent for my piece of mind and small remediation.

[seattlecyclone]

If you have lead-contaminated soil, planting spinach can help. Spinach tends to soak up lead from the soil. Plant it, harvest it, throw it away. Test the soil for lead and repeat as needed.

[Sturton]

You can also buy little lead testing strips at the hardware store.  I had pros come to my house and tell me that my peeling wall was lead and needed expensive stuff, so I went and did the hardware-strip test just to see whether they were telling the truth.  The strips tested positive for lead on the part the pros identified as having lead and negative on the part they didn't, so I gather the strips are fairly accurate.

[teen persuasion]

I live in a house that is 100+ years old.  I wouldn't worry too much about lead paint, it is one of those things that can be a big problem, but the majority of people who live in old houses do not have an issue.

Our pediatrician considers every child in our community at risk for lead poisoning due to the age of the houses.  My kids tested in the lowest levels for years, and when the youngest was about 5 we finally stopped.   I would recommend lead testing your daughter for sure, but beyond that you don't need to do more unless it is indicated.  Out of all my friends in the community, only 1 had kids with high lead levels.  Her husband is a contractor and they think he was bringing it home on his clothes. 

New houses can be toxic as well.  Some of the vinyls, and other plastic products can outgas for years.

+1

I also live in an old house, circa 1840, and have 5 kids.  They were all tested for lead many times, and never had issues.  Good diet goes a long way to preventing elevated lead level in the bloodstream.  From what I remember, if the iron levels in the blood are sufficient, the lead is not absorbed.

So practice good cleaning habits - wet wipedowns to remove any possible lead containing dust (normal friction wear and tear as on window frames), no sanding of paint surfaces without proper filtering/masks and wet cleanup after, consider the age of carpets (they hold lots of dust from years past) and possibly remove (hard surfaces much easier to clean) or replace.  Though I would be leery of off-gassing from modern carpets, too.

[Beriberi]

As mentioned above, lead poisoning and diet are intimately related.  This is why the effects of excess lead are often worst in certain populations - hungry and malnourished kids will absorb a lot more lead.

Lead is absorbed more easily if you have a diet low in iron or calcium.  Conversely, a diet high in those nutrients will decrease lead exposure.  Also, Vitamin C is important for absorption of iron, so it plays a role here too.  In general, I don't believe that kids need vitamins; the 2 years I rented with little ones in a 100-year old house I bought Flintstones with Iron (most kids' vitamins don't include iron).

I would definitely replace windows if they are original, but beyond that, I don't worry that much.  We live in a 1920s house, with little remaining original fixtures, and I don't worry at all.

[alsoknownasDean]

I'd be more worried about the asbestos in a 1958 house :)

That is assuming old houses are chock full of the stuff there too.

[Sibley]

I'd be more worried about the asbestos in a 1958 house :)

That is assuming old houses are chock full of the stuff there too.

My parent's house has asbestos wrapping the steam pipes. Again, as long as it's intact and undisturbed, you're fine. Most of it in their house is ok, but just to be sure they wrapped it with tape or something. There was a small section that had gotten wet and was removed and thrown out. Most of the problems with asbestos came with people working with it/around it a lot.

[Dagmar]

I'm not an expert, but I'm a carpenter and I've done my share of freaking out about lead, asbestos, and the like while my husband and I have been remodeling our 1920s house.  We have lead in the middle layer of paint on our living and dining room walls and trim.  Luckily, the previous homeowners removed the trim from all of the bedrooms, and we've put up new drywall and trim in all of those rooms since (over the old plaster).  We continued remodeling while I was pregnant (though nothing dusty) and are still remodeling with our almost-two-year-old wandering around.  We had the lead blood test for her at age one and she was fine.

My understanding is it's fine if it's not flaking or rubbing and is properly covered with new paint.  We don't use some built-in drawers because they rub a little, which is annoying, but oh well.  I also make sure to clean out my shop vac regularly and replace the filter, and if any paint flakes off the trim while I'm working, I clean it up with wet paper towels.

I've always just used the hardware store tests, but if you're really worried, I think it's worth it for your piece of mind, and your kid's health, to get a professional evaluation.  When I was searching for asbestos abatement information, I found some companies that seemed to do some really comprehensive testing, including air tests.

I wish that lead hazards came up more in remodeling shows and the current buzz around remodeling in general.  I hardly knew anything about asbestos and lead before we bought our house three years ago, and I worked in the construction industry!

[Telecaster]

Hi there,

I worked at an environmental consulting firm and worked with asbestos, mold, PCBs, and lead. I would recommend hiring a consulting firm to go in and sample. There's an XRF machine they use that takes readings on specific elements. My guess is this would cost you about $500-600. I wouldn't recommend a DIY testing kit. Using an environmental specialist is doing your due diligence. It'll help you in the long run if you plan on selling the house, even if it doesn't have any lead-based paint.

I own an environmental consulting firm and this is lousy advice. 

The primary exposure pathway for lead based paint is ingestion.   How do kids ingest lead based paint?  By eating peeling and flaking chips.  Eliminate peeling and flaking and you've eliminated the primary exposure pathway, no consulting firm needed.  The next major pathway is inhalation.  Like from opening windows that people mentioned.  Well, that's easy to control too. 

There is a lot of freak out in this thread that is not backed up by data.  As a reality check, how many people grew up in pre-1978 houses and went to pre-1978 schools?   An enormous percentage of the entire country, right?  Did an enormous percentage of the country have problems?  Of course not. 

I have to emphasize, kids eating lead based paint is known to be a bad thing.  There is no evidence that living in older houses is a bad thing. 

I absolutely recommend getting the DIY test kits.  Buy a few, they are cheap.  Test everything you can think of testing.  Do a survey of all the painted surfaces.  Are they all in good condition?  If not what does it take to restore them to good condition?  Be smart, be informed.  Think about what your exposure actually is or might be. 

What I predict you'll find is that the interior surfaces of your house have been painted a number of times since 1978 and your tests will all be negative.  In my experience, you are far more likely to get a positive result on the outside of your house.  But same thing applies.  Be smart, be informed, and you can safely and smartly limit your exposure.   If you get a few positive results, then maybe you do want to call a professional, but on the scale of things to be worried about or freak out about, this is way down on your list.  It is something to be aware of and think about .  Not worry about.

[TomTX]

Was all the paint used before 1978 lead paint??

Most of them.  Lead was used to make the white base that tints are added to.

What about varnishes / shellac?  Our trim is all wood-colored (house is from 1964).  I googled it but found mixed info.

My 1910s stained wood trim is lead-free, to the eternal shock of window contractors. It has been painted over with white, but apparently well after 1978.

Since the primary use for lead in residential paint was white lead (lead carbonate/hydroxide) pigment for the white color - it is not surprising to me you found no lead in the stain. Oil based (alkyd) stains might have a tiny bit of lead added as a catalyst for drying, but it's not terribly likely. Cobalt, Barium, Zinc, Zirconium, Calcium - quite a variety of metals are used in small amounts so that oil paints dry properly.

After WWII, Titanium Dioxide became more widely available and cheaper - it's a better white pigment than white lead. Once it became affordable, most of the housepaint manufacturers started phasing out lead voluntarily. The 1978 law did put the cap on things, but lead was already mostly gone from house paint.

However:

Lead was still being used extensively for painting steel (think bridges) - this is an orangey-red primer called Red Lead (lead oxide) - it's great for stopping corrosion. Nothing better. It was still being used in the USA at least into the 1990s, often covered with an aluminum flake topcoat. Lead levels in red lead primer are WAY higher than most housepaints. Later use often cut back the red lead and substituted other anticorrosives, so the color may vary.

Some artists still insist on using white lead paint for the color/hue. I think they're idiots, but there ya go.

I'm not a big fan of the little chemical/color change lead tests. Too many false negatives/false positives. The EPA had to loosen their original standards just to get some on the list. The portable XRF* "lead gun" is faster and more accurate. However, it just tells you if lead is present, not whether there is an exposure risk.

Peeling lead paint, lead dust, window frames, outdoor housepaint - these are the big exposure risks in the home.

Other common lead exposure routes:

Brass. Keys and plumbing fixtures most likely. Those house keys in your pocket probably have ~2% lead in them because it makes the brass easy to machine (cut) - never let a baby chew on your keys, or hang out near the key cutting station at the hardware store.

Galvanizing. Might be no lead, might be up to 4% lead.

Lead pipes/solder: Especially in older homes/neighborhoods. Flint is the perfect example - if the water is properly inhibited, exposure to lead is very low because there is a very thin protective film built up inside the plumbing.  If you fuck up the water supply, you destroy the protective buildup and start poisoning people.

Target shooting. Wash up afterward!

Casting bullets/fishing weights.


* X-Ray Fluorescence.  Basically, shoot the surface with X-rays, and look for an excitement response (fluorescence) coming back that is characteristic of lead. Since the X-rays penetrate, typically you are analyzing the top several mm (at least) of the surface being tested. Exposed, dusty lead paint will show up the same as encapsulated lead paint. Every metal has a characteristic fluorescence pattern/peaks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_fluorescence#/media/File:XRFScan.jpg

[little_brown_dog]

It's valid to be concerned. We also live in an old home, so we had our water tested by a professional lab, as we couldn't know if there was lead in the piping and we use the water for our daughter's formula. We also just did a DIY home lead test with the swabs throughout the first floor of our home. Everything was negative, and of course there are concerns about accuracy with the DIY kits, but it gave us peace of mind. We tested old painted molding and windowsills (notched down to the wood), as well as dust deposits on floors etc. Based on the good results of both the water and the DIY surface tests, we are not going to go all in and drop $500 to test the house professionally. Instead we are just going to try to be good about keeping a close eye on our daughter and wiping off her hands throughout the day. Our baby goes in for her first lead test at her 9mo checkup this summer, so I'm hoping for good results.