Author Topic: landlord holding security deposit hostage  (Read 15967 times)

bobsmiley

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landlord holding security deposit hostage
« on: October 14, 2016, 10:45:34 PM »
So recently my family and I moved from California to Colorado - towards the end of June. We've yet to receive our sizable security deposit back (~ $3000) over 3 months later. We've also yet to get a letter explaining what damages were owed / what was taken out of the deposit.

First we tried to get in touch with the apartment complex, but discovered the property manager that was in charge when we lived there was fired around the same time we left the place. Online it's really hard to find a phone number. My wife flew to California to visit friends and while she was there tried to stop by and talk with them about this, but the apartment has no office. You usually meet with the manager in their apartment to discuss issues and the information was never updated from the old manager.

A little over a week ago we finally got ahold of the owners of the complex - we got the new number from the old property manager. They said that the damages exceeded the deposit and we wouldn't be getting anything back. They said they would send us the proof in the mail - that never came in.

We never got a final walkthrough of the apartment with the old manager, and I'm pretty sure they don't have pictures or anything else proving that we owe them $3000 of repairs. I also looked up the tenant rights and they state they have 21 days to give us back our deposit or a letter of expenses for repairs plus receipts. It also states: "we can file a lawsuit in small claims court for the amount of the security deposit plus court costs, and possibly also a penalty and interest, up to a maximum of $10,000"

So what are next steps to take here? I think a letter? Not sure where I would send it to. There is an address on their website. We could also just file a claim, but I'm really not sure what to ask for. I really think our full security deposit should be owed back at minimum, we didn't leave the place in that bad of shape just a full cleaning and some paint probably. Would you file for more? I believe if we file, we'll have to fly to California to file and then again on the court date. I feel like they should pay for that as well. What do you guys think?

RedmondStash

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2016, 10:56:11 PM »
I would write a letter with very specific dates and numbers: the date you moved out, the 21-day grace period for them to return the deposit, the date you called them and they told you they would provide documentation as to why the deposit wasn't being returned, etc. Lay it all out, including that you didn't get a final walk-through. List every time you tried to contact first the original property manager and then them. List method of contact (phone, snail mail, email, etc.), date, and, where possible, time. Tell the entire story with as much detail as possible.

And then state clearly that the law says they must return your full deposit if they don't tell you why they aren't within 21 days, and tell them that if you don't receive the full payment of $3,000 by X date, you will take legal action and also contact the Better Business Bureau. If the law allows it, I'd include whatever extra costs you will take on, like legal fees, if they don't pony up NOW.

We were in a similar situation, where our landlords just didn't refund our deposit for too long a time. We did what I said above, and we received a check for the full amount that was postmarked the date I specified, so it arrived a couple of days after. The letter we wrote was clearly preparation for briefing a lawyer. We were dead serious, too; we would have hired a lawyer to get our money back.

Your property managers probably don't want to pay and are hoping that you'll just go away. Show them you're serious, organized, and prepared, and they might realize that trying to evade you won't work and isn't worth it.

Good luck.

dilinger

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2016, 10:56:37 PM »
Step #1: send them a letter (via certified mail w/ signature confirmation) asking for your security deposit.  In the letter (keep a copy, btw), describe:
 - the property you lived at
 - when you moved out
 - how much they owe you for a security deposit
 - your contact info (email, phone number)
 - a mailing address to send a check
 - ask for the full security deposit, with a deadline ("if not received within 30 days, I will be forced to pursue legal options").

Don't email, don't phone; just use certified mail.  In small claims court, that is proof enough for a judge that your former landlord got your security deposit demand.
If you have to go to small claims, look up the actual CA statute that claims your landlord has 21 days to return the security deposit.  Likely, your former landlord will say that you didn't provide him/her with a forwarding address, which is why certified mail is so important.  After 30 days, if you don't get a response or your security deposit back, you have a solid case to take to small claims court.  At that point the condition that you left the place in doesn't even matter (and don't let the former landlord try to confuse the issue by saying stuff like, "but I had to replace the carpets" or something).  At that point, if the landlord hasn't even sent you a list of things that were damaged, they have clearly violated the law and you are owed (at least) the full security deposit.

newelljack

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2016, 11:14:47 PM »
Sounds extremely shady, especially how the owner seems to be hiding/making it hard to find them. Not having a walk-through could go both ways: you can't prove nothing was damaged, but neither can they. $3k is excessive, unless you were up to some nefarious business... Interested to see how your letter is received.

dilinger

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 11:39:14 PM »
Oh, and regarding where to send the letter to: there should be your landlord's address (where you're supposed to send the checks) on your lease.  That's the place to send your letter, unless your landlord has notified you of an address update or something.

cchrissyy

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2016, 11:49:26 PM »
Time to write a demand letter

I had to do this a couple years ago, in the same state, but different circumstances. Got it back in full in a matter of days.

Was easily able to do it myself with the guidance from Nolo Press website. No court case needed - just a strong and clear demand letter saying I would file in court in 3 days if I did not have my full deposit back.

So yeah, time for action, go to Nolo Press to understand your rights and what to write. Good luck!

Gronnie

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2016, 12:26:50 PM »
At this point it doesn't matter if there was 10k in damages, they owe you the entire deposit back. They had 21 days, 21 days is up. If you want, you could probably even get punitive damages, although it probably is not worth the trouble seeing as you live so far away now.

Beriberi

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2016, 01:48:21 PM »
Agree with the above - if they didn't contact you with evidence of damages, it doesn't matter now -they owe you the full deposit.

I'm not a lawyer, but I took a landlord to court over my deposit (and got it returned in full).  In general, small claims is not going to award you money for expenses or time, so minimize that.  If you file a suit (which you may not need to do in person), you will need to serve the landlord - which is cheaper than I expected, and was reimbursed by the court). 

A clear demand letter with a plan to file a lawsuit on a specific date is the route to go. 

bobsmiley

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2016, 02:13:39 PM »
thanks for all the responses!

I've been working on the demand letter you guys recommend sending. I think I have it pretty much there, it's based on a template on the nolo press site recommended (thanks for that)

I'll let you all know how this turns out once sent. Hopefully the letter is the end of the road and we receive a check soon. Anyway, this is what I have so far - please let me know what you think or if I should change anything. (names and numbers changed...just because):

Oct 16th, 2016
To Whom It May Concern:
On June 24th, we left the apartment for a new job in Colorado. We have yet to receive our security deposit back, or any documents stating damages.

We tried to get ahold of Sally, the property manager at the time to resolve this with no answer. Just a few weeks ago we learned that she was fired around the time we left the complex.

Since then, we searched for another way to get ahold of you. On August 29th we tried (555) 555-0270 found on google places, and 555-555-9138 found on your apartments.com listing. We even stopped by the complex on a vacation trip to the area. Unfortunately, there is no office for the complex, and the manager note on the door still referred to Sally, who was fired.

We finally got ahold of you by calling (555) 555-2121 found on your investment website on Oct. 5th. In that phone conversation, I made it clear that you needed to return our full security deposit and you were in breach of the state of California tenant laws. You claimed that damage was done in excess of the deposit amount to the apartment and that you would send me proof of damages.

To address that, it is now 11 days later we still have yet to receive anything from you. Because the law requires 21 days for the security deposit to either be returned in full, or a list damages you had to fix with receipts, any proof of damages is considered irrelevant at this point. Neither proof nor the deposit has been given back.

Further more, we were never given a final walkthrough to assess the damage we would owe, and when talking to the current property manager Bob, he asserted that it was things like this that caused her termination.

Please send me a check or money order for $2800 on or before November 20th. If I don't receive payment by that date, I'll promptly file this case in small claims court. We will also be contacting the Better Business Bureau. Note that if this goes to court we are allowed to claim up to $10,000.

You may reach me during the day or in the evenings at 555-555-5555

Sincerely,
Bradley Smith


hoodedfalcon

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2016, 02:45:16 PM »
I don't know what the laws are in California, but did you do what was required of you in order to get the security deposit? Many states require a tenant to provide the LL a forwarding address in writing. I am sure you did that, but you may want to put it in the letter that "on such and such date I provided Sally our forwarding address" or what have you. My two cents.

Beriberi

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2016, 02:53:27 PM »
I would focus a bit more on the landlord's obligations and a bit less on what you have done.


California law 4544545 states that "Landlords blahblahblah 21 days blahblah forwarding address blahblahblah and can only be withheld in the case of blahblahblah."  We provided you forwarding address.  We did not do blahblah and you did not do blahblah, so the deposit is now paid in full. 

Law 5454454 states that "Damages may be deducted under the following conditions from deposit: blabhblhablbha". You have not done blahblah blah.  You cannot deduct damages.



Sally getting fired, how you found the number to contact them, the fact that they haven't updated anything is not actually relevant. Stick to - law says this, I did this, you didn't do this.


JLee

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2016, 03:02:15 PM »
Following for updates. Good luck!

JAYSLOL

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2016, 05:29:22 PM »
Following for updates. Good luck!

+1

dilinger

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2016, 05:52:45 PM »

We tried to get ahold of Sally, the property manager at the time to resolve this with no answer. Just a few weeks ago we learned that she was fired around the time we left the complex.

Since then, we searched for another way to get ahold of you. On August 29th we tried (555) 555-0270 found on google places, and 555-555-9138 found on your apartments.com listing. We even stopped by the complex on a vacation trip to the area. Unfortunately, there is no office for the complex, and the manager note on the door still referred to Sally, who was fired.

We finally got ahold of you by calling (555) 555-2121 found on your investment website on Oct. 5th. In that phone conversation, I made it clear that you needed to return our full security deposit and you were in breach of the state of California tenant laws. You claimed that damage was done in excess of the deposit amount to the apartment and that you would send me proof of damages.

To address that, it is now 11 days later we still have yet to receive anything from you. Because the law requires 21 days for the security deposit to either be returned in full, or a list damages you had to fix with receipts, any proof of damages is considered irrelevant at this point. Neither proof nor the deposit has been given back.

Further more, we were never given a final walkthrough to assess the damage we would owe, and when talking to the current property manager Bob, he asserted that it was things like this that caused her termination.

Please send me a check or money order for $2800 on or before November 20th. If I don't receive payment by that date, I'll promptly file this case in small claims court. We will also be contacting the Better Business Bureau. Note that if this goes to court we are allowed to claim up to $10,000.

You may reach me during the day or in the evenings at 555-555-5555

Sincerely,
Bradley Smith

I would simplify this.  Picture yourself as a judge.  You don't care about the incidentals; who was fired, lack of walkthrough, heresay about who contacted whom and what was said.  Unless it was recorded or can be proven, the judge needs to apply the law as defined.  Admitting that there was damage or that the landlord told you that there was damage further muddies the water.  Once this letter is sent and certified, both parties have a copy and the landlord can very well use your letter to figure out a way to wiggle out of paying you.  Don't give them material to use against you.  "Well your honor, the tenant admitted that we told them there was to much  damage, so we shouldn't have to pay the full amount *puppy dog eyes*"

Just say that you tried contacting Sally, found out she was fired, finally got ahold of someone 11 days ago, and still have yet to receive anything in the mail.  California law (statute $XYZ) specifies 21 days (quote the statute if possible), so you expect to get something by $deadline.  The threat of small claims/$10k is probably fine.


cchrissyy

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2016, 08:13:38 PM »
I think your letter is great BUT agree with the others who say to make it even more short and to the point.

Also, don't demand a check by Nov 20. Demand a check sent within days. When I did mine, I gave them 72 hours. I say, send this first thing monday morning and demand a check in hand, or, at least postmarked, by end of day friday, otherwise you are prepared to file in court next monday morning.

JLee

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2016, 11:06:19 PM »
I think your letter is great BUT agree with the others who say to make it even more short and to the point.

Also, don't demand a check by Nov 20. Demand a check sent within days. When I did mine, I gave them 72 hours. I say, send this first thing monday morning and demand a check in hand, or, at least postmarked, by end of day friday, otherwise you are prepared to file in court next monday morning.

I agree.  I would keep it very short and very simple, something like:

Quote
We moved out of XYZ address on June XX, 2016.  We have not received our security deposit, which is required to be remitted to us within 21 days (ref: California law XYZABC).  Please immediately deliver a check in the amount of $XXXX to our current address:

(address)

If the check is not received by (date), I will be forced to pursue legal action.

Sincerely,
Bradley Smith

I'd put a little more effort into cleaning it up, but that's the gist.  Short, simple, and to the point.  Find out what's required of you (if anything) and make sure it has been done and is documented in the letter (i.e. provide forwarding address, etc).
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 11:15:12 PM by JLee »

frugaliknowit

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2016, 04:23:36 AM »
thanks for all the responses!

I've been working on the demand letter you guys recommend sending. I think I have it pretty much there, it's based on a template on the nolo press site recommended (thanks for that)

I'll let you all know how this turns out once sent. Hopefully the letter is the end of the road and we receive a check soon. Anyway, this is what I have so far - please let me know what you think or if I should change anything. (names and numbers changed...just because):

Oct 16th, 2016
To Whom It May Concern:
On June 24th, we left the apartment for a new job in Colorado. We have yet to receive our security deposit back, or any documents stating damages.

We tried to get ahold of Sally, the property manager at the time to resolve this with no answer. Just a few weeks ago we learned that she was fired around the time we left the complex.

Since then, we searched for another way to get ahold of you. On August 29th we tried (555) 555-0270 found on google places, and 555-555-9138 found on your apartments.com listing. We even stopped by the complex on a vacation trip to the area. Unfortunately, there is no office for the complex, and the manager note on the door still referred to Sally, who was fired.

We finally got ahold of you by calling (555) 555-2121 found on your investment website on Oct. 5th. In that phone conversation, I made it clear that you needed to return our full security deposit and you were in breach of the state of California tenant laws. You claimed that damage was done in excess of the deposit amount to the apartment and that you would send me proof of damages.

To address that, it is now 11 days later we still have yet to receive anything from you. Because the law requires 21 days for the security deposit to either be returned in full, or a list damages you had to fix with receipts, any proof of damages is considered irrelevant at this point. Neither proof nor the deposit has been given back.

Further more, we were never given a final walkthrough to assess the damage we would owe, and when talking to the current property manager Bob, he asserted that it was things like this that caused her termination.

Please send me a check or money order for $2800 on or before November 20th. If I don't receive payment by that date, I'll promptly file this case in small claims court. We will also be contacting the Better Business Bureau. Note that if this goes to court we are allowed to claim up to $10,000.

You may reach me during the day or in the evenings at 555-555-5555

Sincerely,
Bradley Smith

"...On June 24th, we left the apartment for a new job in Colorado. We have yet to receive our security deposit back, or any documents stating damages. "

Insert somewhere something like "...our lease ended on such and such date.  We paid and were current on the rent..."  Maybe enclose a copy of the lease as well (reduces resistance to the path of resolution and shows you are organized and they will get their butts burned if they don't comply...)

"...Further more, we were never given a final walkthrough to assess the damage we would owe, and when talking to the current property manager Bob, he asserted that it was things like this that caused her termination."

Insert "...contrary to California (or whatever municipal jurisdiction this falls under like such and such county...) law..." whereever they did anything out of compliance...
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 04:36:07 AM by frugaliknowit »

esq

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2016, 07:29:54 AM »
I would focus a bit more on the landlord's obligations and a bit less on what you have done.


California law 4544545 states that "Landlords blahblahblah 21 days blahblah forwarding address blahblahblah and can only be withheld in the case of blahblahblah."  We provided you forwarding address.  We did not do blahblah and you did not do blahblah, so the deposit is now paid in full. 

Law 5454454 states that "Damages may be deducted under the following conditions from deposit: blabhblhablbha". You have not done blahblah blah.  You cannot deduct damages.



Sally getting fired, how you found the number to contact them, the fact that they haven't updated anything is not actually relevant. Stick to - law says this, I did this, you didn't do this.

+1  Look up the statute number and include it in your letter.

In Texas, it's illegal to hold a security deposit hostage. 

Frugalman19

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2016, 07:41:56 AM »
Dont say you were there on vacation, I would just state that you had to return to the state to try and resolve the issue. Which will give more threat to the $10,000 amount. A threat that they would have to reimburse your travel to claim your deposit that they should have sent already.

Enigma

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2016, 07:43:32 AM »
Nice letter, I think it gets your point across.  There are a ton of things that you might be able to change and make sound better but in reality the only important thing you really need to do is document.  Just be prepared to have to back up your small-claims lawsuit.  In my opinion it would probably go to that.

BigRed

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2016, 08:19:35 AM »
In California, failure to return the deposit promptly can result in a bad faith penalty of up to twice the deposit, in addition to court costs and other costs. 

The law is described well at http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/sec-deposit.shtml

The landlord is required to mail the deposit or statement to your old address if they don't have a new one, and the burden of proof is on them.  If you set up forwarding, they have no excuse.  Hold their feet to the fire.

dilinger

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2016, 05:15:00 PM »
In California, failure to return the deposit promptly can result in a bad faith penalty of up to twice the deposit, in addition to court costs and other costs. 

The law is described well at http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/sec-deposit.shtml

The landlord is required to mail the deposit or statement to your old address if they don't have a new one, and the burden of proof is on them.  If you set up forwarding, they have no excuse.  Hold their feet to the fire.

In Massachusetts, it's 3x.  That's a huge incentive for the landlord to just pay back the security deposit and avoid court.  Use it to your advantage.

bobsmiley

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2016, 07:18:43 PM »
okay, my plan is to mail this Wednesday morning. I changed it to end of October so that gives them about a week.

In CA it's 2x plus the original deposit, so up to $8400 in our case.

Here's the revised letter.

To Whom It May Concern:

On June 24th, we vacated the apartment for a new job in Colorado. We have yet to receive our security deposit back, or any documents stating damages.

According to California Civil Code 1950.5, no later then 21 days after we have vacated the landlord shall deliver the tenant an itemized statement indicating the basis for any security received and shall return any remaining portion of the security to the tenant.

You have failed to deliver an itemized statement as well as any portion of our security deposit.
Within the same civil code, the landlord shall notify the tenant in writing of his or her option to request an initial inspection. This is to allow us to have time to remedy anything that may be charged for.

Based on that inspection, the landlord is to give the tenant an itemized statement for all proposed repairs to be done.

You failed to give us this inspection despite us asking our property manager for it multiple times. We did not receive any statement for proposed expenses.

On October 5th we contacted you regarding this issue. You claimed you would mail us your itemized expenses. It has been 14 days and still no deposit, itemized statements for expenditures, or any contact from you stating your intent.

According to the civil code, the bad faith claim of retention by a landlord may subject the landlord of up to twice the amount of the security, in addition to actual damages. The court may award damages for bad faith whenever the facts warrant that award, regardless of whether the injured party has specifically requested relief.

The landlord shall have the burden of proof as to the reasonableness of the amounts claimed.

Send us a check or money order for $2800 before the end of October. If I don't receive payment in full by that date, I'll promptly file this case in small claims court. We will also be contacting the Better Business Bureau.

You may reach me during the day or in the evenings at 555-555-5555

Sincerely,

Bradley Smith

Much less personal now. And yes, we are prepared to fly to CA to file. Free vacation in a way!



cchrissyy

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2016, 07:41:27 PM »
ok the revision is good BUT I think one par tis worse.

every time you mention the Oct 5 conversation or the 14 days it has been since that...  it is not relevant at all to this demand letter.  Their 21 days ran out in august. It is too late for them to provide an itemized statement.   I like that you mention in the first sentances that they failed to provide the statment. But since the 21 days is now past, the fact that they continue not to provide the statement is irrelevant. they owe you the full balance.

The October conversation and the number of days from that call to this letter has NOTHING to do with the fact they are out of compliance with the law and their time ran out long ago. Every mention of "14 days ago" is a distraction.

JLee

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2016, 07:45:44 PM »
I would go with something like this:

Quote
To Whom It May Concern:

On June 24th, we vacated (street address).  According to California Civil Code 1950.5, the landlord shall deliver the tenant an itemized statement no later than 21 days after the tenant has vacated the property.  This itemized statement should indicate the basis for any withheld portion of the security deposit and shall return any remaining portion to the tenant. As of (current date), we have not received our security deposit nor an itemized statement, despite the July 15, 2016 deadline imposed by law.

If we have not received payment in full ($2800.00) by October 31st, 2016, we will contact the Better Business Bureau and file a case with small claims court on November 1st, 2016.

According to the civil code, the bad faith claim of retention by a landlord may subject the landlord to a penalty of up to twice the amount of the security, in addition to actual damages. The court may award damages for bad faith whenever the facts warrant that award, regardless of whether the injured party has specifically requested relief.

If you require contact by telephone for any reason, you may reach me at 555-555-5555.

Sincerely,

Bradley Smith

Cathy

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2016, 09:55:57 PM »
No part of this post expresses any view on the specific circumstances of the original poster. I write only to correct what appears to be a possible misunderstanding about the principles of California law.

Under California law, "[n]o later than 21 calendar days after the tenant has vacated the premises", a residential landlord must either return the tenant's security in full or provide the tenant with an itemised statement respecting deductions and return the balance of the security. CA Civil Code § 1950.5(g)(1).

However, nothing in the statute suggests that the landlord has only 21 days to assert a claim for damages against the tenant. Indeed, the California Supreme Court has held that "a landlord who has failed in good faith to take advantage of the summary nonjudicial deduct-and-retain procedure ... may recover damages for unpaid rent, repairs and cleaning ... in a subsequent judicial proceeding". Granberry v. Islay Investments, 9 Cal 4th 738, 749 (1995). In the circumstances before the Court in Granberry, the jury had determined that the landlord had acted in good faith, and therefore the Court "express[ed] no opinion regarding the rights of landlords who have acted in bad faith". Id at 750 n 6.

The upshot of this is that after 21 days, the landlord may forfeit the right to keep the security deposit, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the landlord has forfeited the right to recover damages from the tenant.

Again, I express no view on the specific circumstances of the original poster.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 09:57:56 PM by Cathy »

bobsmiley

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2016, 10:19:42 PM »
Thanks Cathy,

I understand you're not talking about this specific incident. Just to clarify, in our case there is likely minimal damages they can come after. We left it messy but other then that it should be fine. The old property manager never came and took pictures to document, or so she said.

Should I remove the paragraph regarding the Oct 5th date? I thought it added a few things:

1. they never disputed on the phone if they had our address. So it might be useful if they come back with "we never gave them the new address"

2. it shows we tried to be reasonable.


JLee

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2016, 08:30:02 AM »
No part of this post expresses any view on the specific circumstances of the original poster. I write only to correct what appears to be a possible misunderstanding about the principles of California law.

Under California law, "[n]o later than 21 calendar days after the tenant has vacated the premises", a residential landlord must either return the tenant's security in full or provide the tenant with an itemised statement respecting deductions and return the balance of the security. CA Civil Code § 1950.5(g)(1).

However, nothing in the statute suggests that the landlord has only 21 days to assert a claim for damages against the tenant. Indeed, the California Supreme Court has held that "a landlord who has failed in good faith to take advantage of the summary nonjudicial deduct-and-retain procedure ... may recover damages for unpaid rent, repairs and cleaning ... in a subsequent judicial proceeding". Granberry v. Islay Investments, 9 Cal 4th 738, 749 (1995). In the circumstances before the Court in Granberry, the jury had determined that the landlord had acted in good faith, and therefore the Court "express[ed] no opinion regarding the rights of landlords who have acted in bad faith". Id at 750 n 6.

The upshot of this is that after 21 days, the landlord may forfeit the right to keep the security deposit, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the landlord has forfeited the right to recover damages from the tenant.

Again, I express no view on the specific circumstances of the original poster.

Correct me if I am wrong -- but the key line there is "in a subsequent judicial proceeding."  They lost their right to withhold damages from the security deposit months ago.

SKL-HOU

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2016, 08:50:08 AM »
Can they even come after you for any damages now? It does not seem right. Damages could have easily happened after you moved out. Since they didn't do a walk-thru or send you an itemized list on time, I don't think they should be able to ask for anything from you.

Cathy

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2016, 08:50:49 AM »
They lost their right to withhold damages from the security deposit months ago.

I express no view on the specific situation of the original poster, but if by "they" you mean an abstract, hypothetical residential landlord who has not complied with the provisions of CA Civil Code ("CCC") § 1950.5, then generally speaking your comment appears to be consistent with what I wrote in my post.

My post may not have been useful to the original poster, and it did not intend to comment, and did not comment, on the specific circumstances of that poster, but it is still relevant information to this general line of discussion. In a hypothetical situation where a residential landlord has failed to comply with CCC § 1950.5(g)(1) but where the landlord actually has a viable claim of damages against the tenant notwithstanding that failure, then both parties have potentially plausible claims against each other. Without expressing any view on the situation of the original poster, or indeed on any specific situation, we can still observe that in such a hypothetical situation involving two parties with viable claims against each other, it may be worthwhile for those parties to consider seeking a mutually acceptable settlement of both claims, rather than demanding that the other side totally concede.

Again, I stress that this information is not intended to have any application to the specific situation of the original poster, or to anybody's specific situation. The decision to offer a settlement of claims is highly individualised and depends on a broad variety of details not discussed here. Please retain counsel for advice on your rights if you are considering settling claims. Do not attempt to rely on my posts in this thread. That said, hopefully this follow-up post makes more clear the relevance of my post. I was simply mentioning another general consideration that people may want to contemplate in these situations, but I was again not suggesting that a particular course of action be taken either by the original poster or by anybody else. Again, please seek legal advice from counsel on your own specific situation.


Can they even come after you for any damages now? It does not seem right. Damages could have easily happened after you moved out. ...

A landlord can, of course, only obtain damages based on a claim that is known to law. Once again, please note that I am not expressing any view on whether the specific landlord discussed in this thread has any claims against the specific tenant discussed in this thread. Indeed, I express no view on, make no comment no, and offer no advice on, the specific circumstances of the original poster.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 09:21:39 AM by Cathy »

robartsd

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2016, 09:24:31 AM »
In my opinion, the owner could claim that they had no knowledge of the property manager's failure to fulfill the landlord's responsibilities prior to being contacted by the tenant. This makes the fact that the tenant directly contacted the owner on Oct. 5 relevant to the case. I would state in the letter that you contacted the landlord about this issue on Oct. 5 and have still not received the owner's response; but I would leave out the details of the response the owner promised and the count of the days that have elapsed since.

The length of your occupancy in a rental can influence what a landlord will deduct from a security deposit. Many properties will repaint and professionally clean carpets every time the unit is vacant. If the tenancy is short these costs might be taken out of the security deposit; however, these costs are considered part of normal wear and tear for long-term tenants.

OP should have cleaned prior to vacating. It also would have been a good idea to document the condition you left the apartment in prior to leaving even if the landlord's agent failed to inspect with you.

Jack

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2016, 10:06:21 AM »
In my opinion, the owner could claim that they had no knowledge of the property manager's failure to fulfill the landlord's responsibilities prior to being contacted by the tenant.

That shouldn't matter -- the owner's failure to manage his employees is not the tenant's problem!

OP should have cleaned prior to vacating. It also would have been a good idea to document the condition you left the apartment in prior to leaving even if the landlord's agent failed to inspect with you.

In the abstract, I agree. However, since it is now more than 21 days later, all of that is irrelevant.

ok the revision is good BUT I think one par tis worse.

every time you mention the Oct 5 conversation or the 14 days it has been since that...  it is not relevant at all to this demand letter.  Their 21 days ran out in august. It is too late for them to provide an itemized statement.   I like that you mention in the first sentances that they failed to provide the statment. But since the 21 days is now past, the fact that they continue not to provide the statement is irrelevant. they owe you the full balance.

The October conversation and the number of days from that call to this letter has NOTHING to do with the fact they are out of compliance with the law and their time ran out long ago. Every mention of "14 days ago" is a distraction.

Exactly.

OP, keep the letter as short as possible. Do not overexplain and do not equivocate! Everything you write above and beyond the minimum represents a risk that you accidentally waive your rights or give the landlord some excuse to use in court.

If the judge wants to know about all those other circumstances, you can tell him when he asks. All your opponent (the landlord) needs to know is that he's legally required to pay you and the minimum amount of information to validate that debt.

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2016, 10:55:54 AM »
Step #1: send them a letter (via certified mail w/ signature confirmation) asking for your security deposit.  In the letter (keep a copy, btw), describe:
 - the property you lived at
 - when you moved out
 - how much they owe you for a security deposit
 - your contact info (email, phone number)
 - a mailing address to send a check
 - ask for the full security deposit, with a deadline ("if not received within 30 days, I will be forced to pursue legal options").

Don't email, don't phone; just use certified mail.  In small claims court, that is proof enough for a judge that your former landlord got your security deposit demand.
If you have to go to small claims, look up the actual CA statute that claims your landlord has 21 days to return the security deposit.  Likely, your former landlord will say that you didn't provide him/her with a forwarding address, which is why certified mail is so important.  After 30 days, if you don't get a response or your security deposit back, you have a solid case to take to small claims court.  At that point the condition that you left the place in doesn't even matter (and don't let the former landlord try to confuse the issue by saying stuff like, "but I had to replace the carpets" or something).  At that point, if the landlord hasn't even sent you a list of things that were damaged, they have clearly violated the law and you are owed (at least) the full security deposit.
Pretty much this, but realize that you *may* have to go to small claims court.

I don't know if it's just Santa Barbara, or all of California, but around here there are a *number* of landlords and property managers who are horrible about returning deposits. They assume that everyone is going to be too lazy to fight it.  I hear about it all the time.  We had one property owner withhold money from us for missing blinds and a broken light.  The light, yeah, the ceiling light cover just fell off one day (we are lucky nobody was sitting there at the time).  The blinds were never there in the first place, and we had noted that on our original walk through documents.  So we got our money.

My friend rented a house with her family for 14 years before they moved.  Their landlord tried to keep the entire deposit for "wear and tear", which is not legal in California. Especially after 14 years. She went to court to file a claim.  As she was a homeschooling mother of 4, they probably thought she wouldn't bother. But she did and got her money back.

It is going to possibly be a pain all the way from your new place.  But for sure I'd take the time and fight it.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2016, 04:04:52 PM »
In my state tenants can pursue 3x damages in court if the deposit rules arent followed by the landlord.

Obviously your not in my state, so this is not useful.

arebelspy

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2016, 04:41:47 AM »
Sorry you've had such a bad landlord.  =/

There's been a few examples like this on the forums. Here's one:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/real-estate-and-landlording/suing-landlord-in-small-claims-court-how-would-you-judge-read-on-for-details/

Good luck on getting it all back (and/or damages!)
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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2016, 11:37:16 PM »
In my state tenants can pursue 3x damages in court if the deposit rules arent followed by the landlord.

Obviously your not in my state, so this is not useful.

God, this should be a rule everywhere though!

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2016, 09:02:09 PM »
One tenant cut down a mature tree, without permission and also destroyed by disassembling a somewhat valuable handicap access ramp.

That's cool that you didn't deduct damages from this tenant's security deposit, but I hope you informed him that what he did wasn't okay.

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2016, 11:10:12 PM »
so, at the moment my letter is waiting to be picked up at the post office by them, they have yet to receive it. Which got me thinking. What happens if they never pick it up? We mailed it to the address on our lease.

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2016, 10:36:13 AM »
If they don't pick  up the letter, you file in small claims and then pay a third party to serve the papers to them.  It will likely cost you around $100 to have proof that they received the filing. (Disclaimer, I'm not an attorney, but I had a landlord refuse to pick up the registered mail that I sent him, had to have a process server deal with it. Court reimbursed me when I won my suit).




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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2016, 10:41:47 AM »
It's waiting for pickup because you sent it certified or signature required, I suppose?

OK fine, here's what I'd do

email it too

at the top of the email, make it crystal clear that this is a copy of the certified letter you mailed

don't change the letter, don't say anything about the mail not signed for / picked up yet.  Just something simple and clear like "This email is a copy of the certified letter I mailed on October 18"  and then a line break followed by the full body of that letter, of course including the date in top right and the addressee info in top left

arebelspy

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2016, 03:53:47 PM »
It's waiting for pickup because you sent it certified or signature required, I suppose?

OK fine, here's what I'd do

email it too

at the top of the email, make it crystal clear that this is a copy of the certified letter you mailed

don't change the letter, don't say anything about the mail not signed for / picked up yet.  Just something simple and clear like "This email is a copy of the certified letter I mailed on October 18"  and then a line break followed by the full body of that letter, of course including the date in top right and the addressee info in top left

Then they can definitely ignore picking up the mail, because they don't have to be curious about the contents.

Process server is usually fairly cheap.
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bobsmiley

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2016, 05:18:27 PM »
isn't it possible the address on the lease is the wrong address? The apartments are owned by an investment company at a different location, so the address seems random. It's also different then the one on their investment corporation's website. Should I send it there as well?

robartsd

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2016, 05:30:12 PM »
Then they can definitely ignore picking up the mail, because they don't have to be curious about the contents.

Process server is usually fairly cheap.
Yes, but the point is to give them an opportunity to act before taking legal action. Once they force your hand to take legal action, be sure to require them to pay all costs.

arebelspy

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2016, 06:09:48 PM »
isn't it possible the address on the lease is the wrong address? The apartments are owned by an investment company at a different location, so the address seems random. It's also different then the one on their investment corporation's website. Should I send it there as well?

Was their address and information not on the lease?  Of the management company, or owners, or whatever?  Was there on site management?
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bobsmiley

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2016, 12:12:44 AM »
there was on site management but no building for them - they lived and operated out of an apartment. The manager that was there when we were was fired, so we have no way of knowing where the new manager lives so we can mail them.

The lease had an address on it and that's the one I used for the letter. Their website has a different address on it.

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2016, 04:16:17 PM »
so I just got a voicemail from the landlord it turns out they got the letter today. They reiterated that damages were so high that they actually spend around $1000 over our security deposit. They did a full repaint / carpeting which apparently were the main expenses.

The paint was fine as far as we are aware. My guess is that they repainted because they lost the original paint color (we know they lost it) and wanted to just repaint. There were only two small rooms that were carpeted.

Also as far as I'm aware I thought paint and carpet were considered normal wear and tear and they can't charge for those?

Anyway, I reiterated to them that we need a check in the mail by tomorrow or we'll be filing in small claims court against them and left it at that.

Oh, there was one other small niggle. According to them, my wife apparently told the property manager to "just take everything out of the security deposit". Does that matter? I don't know if it's true I'll have to talk to her. Though it may have been over text knowing her.
 
I'll be looking up how to file next. My guess is that we will need to file to get this back unfortunately.

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2016, 06:47:51 PM »
Unless you had huge stains on carpet from pets or spills, i think that is normal wear and tear. Same with the paint, unless you took a crayon and started drawing on the walls, they cannot charge you for that!

Metric Mouse

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2016, 07:33:59 PM »
so I just got a voicemail from the landlord it turns out they got the letter today. They reiterated that damages were so high that they actually spend around $1000 over our security deposit. They did a full repaint / carpeting which apparently were the main expenses.

The paint was fine as far as we are aware. My guess is that they repainted because they lost the original paint color (we know they lost it) and wanted to just repaint. There were only two small rooms that were carpeted.

Also as far as I'm aware I thought paint and carpet were considered normal wear and tear and they can't charge for those?

Anyway, I reiterated to them that we need a check in the mail by tomorrow or we'll be filing in small claims court against them and left it at that.

Oh, there was one other small niggle. According to them, my wife apparently told the property manager to "just take everything out of the security deposit". Does that matter? I don't know if it's true I'll have to talk to her. Though it may have been over text knowing her.
 
I'll be looking up how to file next. My guess is that we will need to file to get this back unfortunately.

Could be the new management company/person took over, decided a repaint and re-carpet was needed, and basically billed it all to you as 'damages', when really it was standard deprecation/wear & tear/replacement period.

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2016, 10:30:35 PM »
Unless you had huge stains on carpet from pets or spills, i think that is normal wear and tear. Same with the paint, unless you took a crayon and started drawing on the walls, they cannot charge you for that!

+1

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Re: landlord holding security deposit hostage
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2016, 11:29:17 PM »
Where I live (not CA)  if the landlord does not do the in & out report they cannot deduct any of the security deposit.

As the manager failed to do their job you would get it all back. No questions asked.

I'm not sure if that helps, but the out report is the landlords legal responsibility.