Author Topic: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice  (Read 25078 times)

secondcor521

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OK, suppose a fellow is interested in a lady he has known for years but they only see each other once every month or two and he has finally reached a place and screwed up the courage to ask her out.  Through normal social interaction with her, he has learned her first and last name, approximate age, birth city, that she does not have a boyfriend, and that she was interested in seeing a certain movie that is currently playing in theaters.

Further suppose that last night the two had occasion to socialize at a local charity event where he intended to ask her out to do something this weekend.  But he got flustered by (a) his shyness and lack of social skill, (b) the presence of other people including the lady's coworkers and her ~12yo daughter, and (c) not having a backup plan when he asked her if she had a chance to see the movie yet and she and her daughter had just seen it.

OK, so now the guy is ruing his lack of courage and quick thinking and thinks he has missed a golden opportunity.  He also suspects that she knows he's keen on her because of his behavior in general and yesterday evening in particular.  She is very nice and is friendly towards him, but he's not good at reading clues.

So he spends maybe five or ten minutes googling and finds her phone number online.  My suspicion is that if he were to call that phone number and actually reach her, she would likely take a dim view of his behavior which would in turn ruin his chances of her saying yes to a social invitation now or ever.  And this would be regardless of how respectful and well meaning his intentions were or what he said in that phone conversation (remember, he gets tongue-tied talking to this particular woman, so he couldn't count on really explaining himself very well).  My suspicion is that it is extremely unlikely that she would view his efforts positively as creative initiative or that she would reason that her number isn't particularly private.  My suspicions are that a wiser course of action is for him to simply bide his time and hope to run into her where he normally does, and just learn the hard lesson of striking while the iron is hot.

So are my suspicions accurate?  Any alternative suggestions for non-skeevy ways to ask her out without waiting?

samburger

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2014, 10:10:28 PM »
No need to limit this question to ladies. I'm sure plenty of dudes will see the light here, too.

Yes, it's invasive to pull someone's number from a Google search and call them. That's a bad start. Non-skeevy ways to contact her are pretty much limited to Facebook. I assume you already would have gone down that route if you were both on there.

You have to talk at her face, in person, real time. I know it's hard, but you just have to do it. I talk to my wife every single day! It's totally doable!


Suit

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2014, 10:18:41 PM »
Yes, it's invasive to pull someone's number from a Google search and call them. That's a bad start.

+1

As a woman, I would be weirded out by a man pulling my phone number off of Google and calling me. Just wait until you run into her again. Is there anyway to make a sooner "run-in" happen, like happening to eat at her favorite lunch place, volunteering more often with that charity, etc?

ch12

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2014, 10:26:12 PM »
Yes, it's invasive to pull someone's number from a Google search and call them. That's a bad start.

+1

As a woman, I would be weirded out by a man pulling my phone number off of Google and calling me. Just wait until you run into her again. Is there anyway to make a sooner "run-in" happen, like happening to eat at her favorite lunch place, volunteering more often with that charity, etc?

I'd say to just have a fallback instead of putting all your eggs in one basket. I know that it's nervewracking to ask people out (well, depending), but you need to have a plan for when she turns down the movie idea.

You need to get more experience with asking people out in a low social cost situation before you try to bat when you have serious skin in the game. It's not going to make you perfect, but it'll help with your nerves. Asking people on coffee or ice cream dates is simple.

sol

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2014, 10:28:51 PM »
How often are you happy to get an unexpected phone call from someone you haven't given your number to?

Googling + cold calling is a no-no.  You're skeevy for taking the internet stalking even as far as you already have.

Better option:  work out another plan, this time with a backup plan and a backup to the backup, for asking her in person for a chance to spend more time together.


Asking people on coffee or ice cream dates is simple.

Simple for you and me, sure.  Some people have crippling social anxiety about calling to order a pizza.  Those people deserve the chance to date, too.

totoro

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2014, 10:35:16 PM »
I agree with the plan with a back-up back-up plan for the next time you see her.  You can do this!

I also think a friend request on Facebook would not be a problem given that you know each other already - unless you don't do Facebook and create a profile just for this purpose and make her your ONLY friend. 

nikki

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2014, 10:37:00 PM »
Yeesh! I'm so sorry you have so much anxiety about this. She probably isn't even aware of your intentions and how much it's eating away at you.

Next attempt, maybe don't try to orchestrate some well-thought plan based on something you've learned about her; just ask her if she'd like to have coffee or ice cream and get to know each other better. You don't really need a back-up plan in that case.

But don't call her without her having given you her number. That's SUPER creepy. You've already done something creepy by looking it up--don't go deeper into creeperhood!

Argyle

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2014, 10:52:37 PM »
You run into her.  You do some small talk.  Then you segue into, "Boy, it's been a busy week for me too.  I could use a little less work, you know?  Hey, wanna grab coffee sometime?"  Or "Oh yeah, you saw that movie?  What'd you think of it?  I've gotta add some more down time into my life, hang out at Starbucks, chill out.  You ever go to Starbucks?  Wanna grab coffee there sometime?"  Or "Oh, you hate Starbucks?  What's a good place in town that you'd recommend?  Yeah?  I've never been there, I'm looking for a good coffee shop.  Wanna grab coffee there sometime?"  All roads lead to Rome.  I think you were right not to put her on the spot with a bunch of other people looking on too nerve-wracking. 

What will really make you less nervous is having other plans with other potential dates set up.  So ask someone for coffee as practice a female friend that you like to hang out with but whom you don't have aims for.  Having more than one coffee date takes the pressure off, even if the other coffee dates aren't any big romantic thing.

secondcor521

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2014, 11:24:43 PM »
Thanks for all of the responses so far, and thanks for confirming my suspicions.  Thanks especially to everyone who has been encouraging and supportive.  I don't really think I am skeevy at heart, just socially nearly tone-deaf in many situations.

I am on FB and have 158 friends there already.  There's an account in the right town with her name, but it doesn't look very active, and I'm not really sure it's her.

Unfortunately, I don't know her favorite places other than the charity.  I was going to say that I already volunteer for the charity as much as I can, but there are other roles I could volunteer for there that would increase the chances of running into her.  Seems like that's volunteering with an ulterior motive, which seems a little off to me, but hey, if a random person on the internet says its OK...

I didn't actually ask her to the movie...I was leading up to it with "Oh, hey, did you ever get a chance to see movie X?", hoping for a softball response like, "No, I haven't yet."  but got, "Yeah, my daughter and I saw it yesterday!", which I lamely tried to recover with "Cool, did you like it?"...and the conversation ended up somehow talking about the local no-kill cat shelter.  I think her daughter had said something about liking cats.

I am not inept enough where I have social difficulty talking with people or even women in general, but I had very limited dating experience before marrying young and being married for 15 years.  I've been divorced for 8 years now, and just dipping my toes back in the water.  It's intimidating.

Y'all are right in that I am too selective in dating and put too much pressure on myself in these situations -- a misguided effort to minimize the chance of heartbreak.  I did try to ask someone else out today but similar sort of problem...I stopped by to say hello and they weren't there.

Thanks again for all the comments.  I took them all to heart, so thanks for your help.

ETA PS:  I really don't understand it, but my social tone-deafness is quite uneven.  I've had several situations where I've been complemented on my ability to be empathetic and socially aware.  There are also many, many times I read things on this board about social situations and say to myself, "Of course you don't want to do *that*!  That's rude/uncouth/creepy/whatever."  But there are also definitely situations where I say to myself, "Huh, never thought about it that way" or, "Really?  Women think that?"  I guess it's mostly about that initial asking for a date.  To give y'all some data for perspective, I'm turning 45 this month and in my life I've asked exactly 8 women out on a date (6 yes's, 2 no's) and had a total of three second dates.

The more I like them, the more nerve-wracking it is.  I try to calm myself down by just saying it's no big deal...that helps a little sometimes.  Practice would help, as Argyle suggested.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 11:36:33 PM by secondcor521 »

Theadyn

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2014, 05:17:29 AM »
The next time you run in to her, can use a part of the conversation that is interesting and say something like "I would love to talk to you more about 'x', how about coffee sometime to talk more on the subject?".   You can get cues from her response if she's receptive to that.  It will either be an excuse of something along the lines of being too busy if it's a no-go, or an agreeance and possibly a phone number to set up a time and place if it's a go-go.  :)

The knitter

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2014, 05:39:40 AM »
What if you just ask her for her number the next time you see her?

Then you could ask her out over the phone if it's more comfortable.

Although, frankly, it seems more natural -- and is much easier to play off if rejected -- to do it in person as part of a conversation. It also puts less pressure on her.

Don't worry about being nervous in front of her. Some women find that very flattering and it can't hurt to have that honest interaction with someone you want to get to know better.

Good luck!

ch12

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2014, 06:23:02 AM »
To give y'all some data for perspective, I'm turning 45 this month and in my life I've asked exactly 8 women out on a date (6 yes's, 2 no's) and had a total of three second dates.

Yeah, 8 is a pretty low number. That you even count the yes/no responses is mindboggling to me, because the no column should be much higher. Rejection can be scary, but not if you don't actually have skin in the game. You don't take enough small risks, so of course a big risk such as the woman you actually like is scary.

homeymomma

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2014, 07:42:44 AM »
You have zero mutual acquaintances from which to ask her number?

Clover

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2014, 08:19:06 AM »
Because this causes you so much anxiety and because you say you have a hard time reading signals, I would skip the coffee invite if I were you.  I think you should simply ask her if she would like to have dinner with you sometime (don't ask about a specific day when she may already have plans).  That way the signals she gives you would be clear.  If she gives you a bright smile and says yes you'll know she's interested.  If she stutters and her eyes dart around while she thinks if a polite way to decline you'll know. 

Good luck!



soccerluvof4

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2014, 08:28:10 AM »
To be blunt....Piss or get off the pot! She might find it a complement that your so nervous to ask her out but the longer you wait the more she will tilt to thinking whats up with this guy! Most guys will any self respect arent smooth operators like in the movies! but you just need to take that step! worse thing is you have 6 yes's and 3 no's. No big deal! Good luck , sure it will work out but you gotta take the step!

SwordGuy

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2014, 12:50:21 PM »
"I really enjoy your company and would love to spend more time with you.  Would you like to join me for (insert activity name here)?   Honestly, if there's something else you would like to do, it would make me very happy to oblige you."

That pretty much covers the backup plan.   

DoubleDown

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2014, 01:27:01 PM »
You run into her.  <pretty good advice on how to ask her out>

This is pretty good advice, and I'll  augment it slightly but in a way that I think will take a lot of the pressure off both of you and is likely to be even more successful. A really good way to ask a woman out on a date is to tell her you will be doing X (like grabbing a cup of coffee), and tell her she should join you. For example, "Hey, I'm going to try that new coffee place downtown next Saturday afternoon, you should join me!" Even though it seems like a small distinction, it's pretty important for two reasons, and it works (i.e., it gets you dates):

A. It's confident, and it tells her you are doing the activity with or without her (i.e., you have an interesting life), so you're not placing a high value on whether or not she joins you. You do not want her to think you have given her, or whether she joins you, barely a second thought. It's lighthearted, spontaneous-sounding, and creates desirability in you.

B. It gives both of you an easy out if she declines. If she's declining because she just isn't interested, it's not a big deal if she turns you down because you were going anyway. So whether or not she comes doesn't matter, see? She can just say, "Sorry I can't make it next Saturday, but it sounds great, I hope you enjoy it." This is a lot easier than saying "Uh, no thanks" when just flat out asked out on a date, and easier for you to receive. If she's declining because she can't join you that particular time, she can easily suggest doing it another time. "Oh shoot, I have to be at my sister's on Saturday, but next time you go I'd love to join you." Or, "I don't really like coffee, but maybe we could see that new movie."

Good luck! And one other thing -- there are tons of women out there, even if it doesn't always seem that way. I really encourage you, since you're interested in dating again, to cast a decently wide net. You could call this "playing the odds", so that getting turned down even nine times out of ten is no big deal. You got a "yes" one out of ten times, that's what matters! If you asked out fifty, you now have five women who are all interested in you. Also it will give you practice, help you meet other women, and give you options. One thing that makes a person desirable to the opposite sex is when that person has lots of options (others who are interested in him/her), and is therefore confident and not needy.

dragoncar

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2014, 02:26:02 PM »
Any mutual friends?  Pulling her number off google is creepy, but asking a friend for it (I think!) is not.  You can just say "I didn't know how to contact you so I asked Sally."  At least that's what Seinfeld has led me to believe.

Rebecca Stapler

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2014, 02:55:00 PM »
I just want to wish you good luck!

Oh, and, honestly, I would have a hard time asking someone out in front of their teenage child. I think women know that they're being asked on a date if you ask her if she wants to get dinner "sometime" and, if she says yes, ask for her number and you'll call about a day and where to pick her up, etc. (or, you could whip out your calendars at that point, but you definitely want to exchange phone numbers in case something comes up).

obstinate

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2014, 03:09:44 PM »
If you want to totally ruin things, calling that number would be a great idea.

If you want to not ruin things, you could ask a friend who knows her to give your number to her, or arrange to see her again in some social context where you know she is likely to be. Sorry. Them's the breaks.

Annamal

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 03:10:10 PM »
Any mutual friends?  Pulling her number off google is creepy, but asking a friend for it (I think!) is not.  You can just say "I didn't know how to contact you so I asked Sally."  At least that's what Seinfeld has led me to believe.

Still a decent chance of coming off as creepy.

Basically if you're contacting someone on their home turf it always has the potential to be thought of as creepy because they might not have complete confidence that you will take No for an answer (or at least that you will take it gracefully).

Your best bet is to give both of you a graceful out while still being upfront about your interest.

Be prepared for a no (doesn't mean that it will happen just means that you have a script prepared for if it does).

I'm woefully bad at spontaneous social interactions but I've built up some social scripts for various situations.

RealCanadianSavings

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2014, 03:33:07 PM »
If you don't think you'll see her anytime soon, then i don't think that volunteering *more* so that you might run into her again is bad. I'm sure your volunteer organization would appreciate it and you don't have to tell them why!

Also, email anyone you know at the event and let them know that you're looking for her email address. Keep it short and sweet like "Hi, do you know Sally's email addy? I wanted to send her some info on a cat shelter, but i can't find a way to contact her. Cheers!"

Getting a cold call from someone who found your phone number on the internet is really creepy. Even getting a cold call if you found a phone number through a friend is a bit odd. Email is fairly harmless though. All you're trying to do is open an avenue to communication, you don't have to ask her out. If she's interested, she'll reply. "Hi Sally, Lisa from the cat shelter graciously sent me your email address. I wanted to send you a link to that cat shelter we were talking about. <link> Hope you're enjoying your weekend!"

DollarBill

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2014, 03:53:42 PM »
I would also suggest to start random conversations with other women. It will help you with social skills.

OldDogNewTrick

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2014, 03:58:17 PM »
How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. A Dale Carnegie course would do you a lot of good. How about asking some slightly lower-value lady targets out for coffee and chat to work on your skills?

Internet stalking, (research), is natural, everyone does it. Acting on it, i.e. calling without her giving you her number, (permission), is a HUGE no-no. That would creep me out and guarantee I'd never speak to you again.

What's the worse that could happen? She could say no. Well, in real life, you are going to run into more nos than yeses. Just tell yourself, when/if it happens, "I'm one no closer to meeting the right one." Attitutde is everything.

The other problem, women are very perceptive. She may be only too aware of your interest and the fact you can't seem to screw up the courage to ask her out. Women like confidence..... not over-bearing aggressive boorishness.... but quiet self confidence. If you don't have that yet, fake it.

Good luck! :-)

dragoncar

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2014, 03:59:16 PM »
Any mutual friends?  Pulling her number off google is creepy, but asking a friend for it (I think!) is not.  You can just say "I didn't know how to contact you so I asked Sally."  At least that's what Seinfeld has led me to believe.

Still a decent chance of coming off as creepy.


Interesting.. I don't really see why as your friend has vetted you AND you know her.  If she has a teenaged kid, she is from the era where people were "in the book."  Still, I've never done this so I believe you... Just doesn't seem logically creepy to me.

SweetLife

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2014, 04:48:10 PM »
Good luck with this ... all of the above advice is sound ... do not call unless SHE gives you her number
Next time you see her ask her out - to do something you like to do ... who knows she may be just as interested in you as you are in her but is equally as shy ...

I know this is hard for many divorced people ... but don't measure her or any new mate by your ex's yard stick some baggage later in life is normal ... enough to put in a Uhaul? Deal with it BEFORE you try and meet someone new ... be  happy in yourself and your life - and be sure to look for that in any potential mate :)

Good luck :)

Annamal

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2014, 04:54:43 PM »
Any mutual friends?  Pulling her number off google is creepy, but asking a friend for it (I think!) is not.  You can just say "I didn't know how to contact you so I asked Sally."  At least that's what Seinfeld has led me to believe.

Still a decent chance of coming off as creepy.


Interesting.. I don't really see why as your friend has vetted you AND you know her.  If she has a teenaged kid, she is from the era where people were "in the book."  Still, I've never done this so I believe you... Just doesn't seem logically creepy to me.

Every woman I know (including me) has at least one female friend who has had trouble getting a man to hear no, whether it's as simple as continued unwanted contact after she has turned down a date or much more sinister (a friend of a friend had a guy break through safety glass).

Better to present yourself as someone who will respect the word no and part of that is not intruding on her home turf without her permission, I would class private phone numbers as home turf.

DollarBill

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2014, 05:29:52 PM »
Probably just another crazy women who will cause you heartache and a lot of money...aaahhhhahaha. It's a coin flip! Let the guy jokes fly :)

Argyle

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2014, 05:33:12 PM »
I agree.  Do not call.  Anyway, who talks on the phone these days?  It's most Facebook or email.  Those are better because you can think through your remarks instead of blurting something out, and she can think through her response.

I love DoubleDown's suggestions.  DoubleDown can serve as my social consultant any day of the week.

No offense, but I advise against SwordGuy's idea: ""I really enjoy your company and would love to spend more time with you.  Would you like to join me for (insert activity name here)?   Honestly, if there's something else you would like to do, it would make me very happy to oblige you."  This would make most women run a mile.  If you're suggesting you have coffee together, she knows you think she'd be interesting to get to know.  But as someone else remarked, all women have had experience with the guy who comes on too strong.  Those guys typically don't take No for an answer and women really, really want to avoid these guys.  This dialogue is coming on way too strong.  And you don't need to suggest that you'd be happy to do anything she'd want to.  Would you really?  Watching "Housewives of New Jersey" while knitting?  Going to visit her crabby sister?  No, the coffee is to find out how many things you have in common, not a I'll-follow-you-like-a-puppy-dog thing.

But meanwhile, go for coffee with a bunch of other women.  If you know chatty women who are already in a relationship (so both of you are clear that there's nothing romantic about coffee), suggest coffee and then at coffee you can ask them what they think about how to ask women out.  Women are generally more than happy to give insights.

Norrie

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2014, 05:47:49 PM »
I think that my reply got lost somehow, but along with saying no way to calling with a Googled number, I also think that you need to refrain from trying to ask her out when her daughter is present. Some people are comfortable with that kind of thing, but some people totally aren't, so I would not take that chance.

Good luck!

MrsPete

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2014, 05:59:28 PM »
I agree with -- well, not the majority, but everyone:  Don't call that number.  Seeking out a mutual friend from whom you could legitimately get the number is an okay option . . . however, since you typically run into her every couple weeks anyway, I vote for waiting and letting things work out more naturally.

I suggest you ask her if she'd like to go to dinner "sometime".  No back-up plan is necessary because it's a pretty sure bet that she's going to eat every day . . . and by not asking specifically, "Would you like to eat Italian food on Friday night?" you're removing the possibility that she already has plans on Friday.  You're allowing her to choose 1) whether to say yes or no.  2) when she would like to go. 

If you get a yes (and I hope you do), you might then say, "Great.  We'll go to ___ on ___.  Would you like to catch an early movie beforehand?"  That's always a good choice because then you have something to talk about at dinner:  The plot, the actors, relate it to other movies.  As someone else who sometimes has difficulty in social situations, I think it could be a positive to you.  Also think of a couple topics of discussion concerning your mutual volunteering exercises, things you can bring up if the conversation lags.  Being prepared for talking to her will make you feel more confident.  Always ask open-ended questions that'll let her talk about herself. 

I've gotta say that I personally would not respond well to the, "I'm going to ____.  You should go with me."  Somehow that strikes me . . . wrong.  But I'm not speaking for the whole female population, so perhaps other ladies will chime in. 

I do agree with the posters who say DON'T ask in front of her daughter.  You said you have trouble with social cues, so we're telling you straight out:  Never ask a woman out (on a first date) in front of anyone else.  Only bad can come of it.  How to get her alone?  If you're volunteering together, could you enlist someone else's help?  Someone who might ask the daughter to help -- I don't know, take out the trash or set up a display?, allowing you a few minutes together. 

And I'll also echo what another poster said:  Don't be the guy who can't hear no.  If she looks pleased and answers right away, GOOD.  If she hesitates, looks down, or won't be tied down to a definite answer or date . . . sorry, dude, but you should look elsewhere. 

secondcor521

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2014, 06:27:10 PM »
Thanks again for all the responses...

I've ruled out calling a googled number.  It always seemed "off" to me, and y'all have overwhelmingly voted "no", so I appreciate the wisdom of this crowd.  I appreciate the person who said that researching is natural...also those who flipped the table and asked me how I would feel.  If it was this particular person, I wouldn't mind, but if it was someone I was neutral about, yeah, it would bother me.

I did realize that I know one other place she goes frequently (church), so I'll try stopping by there sometimes and see if I run into her there.  I'm not going to camp out there, and I had been thinking about going there for other reasons, so I think that's OK.

Mutual friends at the charity and possibly at church, but I agree that getting a phone number or email that way seems ungood because I'd just as soon ask her out in person rather than over the phone.

I agree with the comments about trying to make it a natural part of the conversation.

@ch12, I just compiled the list the other night just out of curiosity and to try to encourage myself that I actually had decent odds based on past experiences.  The whole number is low and the no's are low because I am quite an introvert and am therefore pretty happy most of the time to just be without others around.  Also, as previously noted, my MO (which perhaps should change) is to get to know people for a while before asking them out.  For what it's worth, I've been asked out by four women (I said yes each time and apropos to the other thread, three of them paid and went Dutch with the fourth).

@DoubleDown, I like the idea and the general principle of going anyway.  I'd probably modify the language a little bit - what you wrote seems a little bossy/moralistic to me, but I'd probably use something like "Hey, I'm going to X...would you like to join me?"

I think overall I need to decide between just winging it with a general intention, and having a plan worked out ahead of time.  My personality is naturally the planning type, but since that limits my ability to react to the situation and because it probably comes off a bit "wooden", I may just try the other way.  Probably nobody remembers the exact words they were asked out with on a first date anyway; as long as I get the general idea across of asking her to spend some time with me socially the words will hopefully work themselves out.

I have been practicing social conversations with other women, and that helps somewhat.  I'll keep doing that.  But as I mentioned above, I don't have any problems when I'm not interested.

I doubt she is as shy as me, as I am suspect strongly that I am shyer than most.

@SweetLife, I understand about baggage.  I have plenty of my own but I'm working on dealing with and/or owning mine as the case may be.  Also I am generally quite happy in my own life in general...

@Norrie, I appreciate the comment...I was wondering about that.  What is interesting for me in this stage of my life is understanding the kinds of things that women in general like or don't like and the kinds of things that specific women like or dislike.

@MrsPete, thanks for the input.  I can read the signals OK I think once I get the question out.  Although I may be passed out and/or hyperventilating too much to notice her answer :-).

Thanks again for all the comments!  If/when I do get a chance to ask her out I'll try very hard to remember to let y'all know what happened...

swick

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2014, 06:49:09 PM »
going to mention an idea, because I don't think it has been brought up.

It sounds like this women has the weight of the world on her shoulders - working full time, raising her daughter by herself, heavily involved in the community. Why not do something that will show her you see and value her contributions and see where it goes from there? 

You could send some flowers (something bright and colorful, cheerful and different) or something to the place where she volunteers with a note along the lines of "Happy Tuesday, just wanted to say thank you for all the work you do in the community, it is appreciated!" Sign your name and see what happens, if nothing else it sets the stage that she will be looking for you the next time you are in a social situation, and it could be a good ice breaker.

East River Guide

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2014, 07:07:48 PM »
I find it kind of ironic that back in the low information days we had these things called phone books and it was perfectly ok to look up a number.  And now with more info available easier you can't use it.

Argyle

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2014, 07:11:05 PM »
Just to say that I would be a little bit creeped out by the flowers.  I think that might be a gesture for when/if the relationship has proceeded a bit and it's clear both parties are interested in it going further.

swick

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2014, 07:49:12 PM »
Just to say that I would be a little bit creeped out by the flowers.  I think that might be a gesture for when/if the relationship has proceeded a bit and it's clear both parties are interested in it going further.

I can appreciate that, it all depends on how it is done. I don't think it would be weird at all given this particular situation. It did work very well for my best friend and the man she ended up marrying :) She was in a very similar situation - age and strong volunteer.

DoubleDown

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2014, 09:43:31 PM »
@DoubleDown, I like the idea and the general principle of going anyway.  I'd probably modify the language a little bit - what you wrote seems a little bossy/moralistic to me, but I'd probably use something like "Hey, I'm going to X...would you like to join me?"

That's good too -- not as good, but still really good ;-)  Maybe I should make clear, the "you should join me" is not issued as a command; it is a lighthearted, casual, almost offhand comment, like when you would say to a casual friend with a smile, "I go biking every weekend and it's great, you should come with me some time!"

Listen man, I really applaud you for going after this, and I really want you to succeed, so I hope you'll take 5 - 10 minutes to google "Confident + Funny" or "Cocky + Funny." If you want to make being successful with women 1000% easier, that is the secret formula (of course, it's applied according to your own personality). If you go after this woman without at least looking it up, it's like me saying "I'm going to retire early" without ever bothering to understand or look up the 4% SWR when someone suggests looking it up.

On the other hand, following some of the advice in this thread is likely to leave you coming off as needy, uninteresting, or squarely in "friends" territory (you've already known this woman long enough that you need to act before it's too difficult to turn around from "friends"). As just one example, dinner is pretty much a bad idea (sorry to anyone who suggested it). It's too heavy, too long, doesn't give you (or her) a quick out if it's not going well. Movies have you both just sitting there not talking -- horrible. Going to coffee is perfect: Relatively brief, casual, allows good conversation, and you can always add onto the date if it's going well.

So please do yourself a huge favor and look up cocky + funny. I promise, it will likely be very revealing to you, maybe a bit like discovering MMM for dating instead of personal finance! It sounds like you have already established a great rapport with this woman, and understanding the approach will greatly increase your confidence and likelihood of success taking it to the next level.

BlueHouse

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2014, 10:01:00 PM »
A really good way to ask a woman out on a date is to tell her you will be doing X (like grabbing a cup of coffee), and tell her she should join you. For example, "Hey, I'm going to try that new coffee place downtown next Saturday afternoon, you should join me!" Even though it seems like a small distinction, it's pretty important for two reasons, and it works (i.e., it gets you dates):
hmmm.. I say this all the time and I have NEVER meant it as a date.  I think it causes some confusion.  (and then the awkwardness of who pays comes up).

Personally, I like to see a man a little bit nervous when asking someone out for the first time.  As TheKnitter said, it's really flattering.  And anyone who comes off as too smooth is just too smooth for me. 

DoubleDown

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2014, 08:33:10 AM »
Yup, the asking out thing is only 1 out of 1000 steps! It's just an easy and effective way to get her out for a date. Once the OP gets to coffee with her, he can work the rest of his magic and make it clear he is not just pursuing her as a friend. And my guess is, he already stands a great chance with her without resorting to any "smooth" techniques. Another great thing about going to coffee, the OP can confidently pay for hers so there's no confusion, and it will only set him back a couple of dollars.

I agree with you (I'm a dude) about being too smooth, and I hope no one thinks these techniques are designed for that. It's not intended to turn you into a "player." It's to give a guy legitimately successful tools for doing well with the opposite sex, and that's an area many of us guys never learned (except the hard way), plus it can be a really difficult thing without the right tools. The OP's (very understandable) uncertainty on how to ask her out, or if it's okay to call her googled number, is an example of that. And we all know rejection sucks.

I think it's no different than personal finance or any other life skill, where having the right knowledge makes all the difference. You could liken it to public speaking: probably no one say, "Just wing it, be yourself! Don't ever practice, and don't follow any advice about how to speak confidently, slowly, and humorously, and maintain eye contact with the audience while not reading from a script, otherwise you'll come off too smooth!" It's pretty much the same thing -- having the tools for what actually works will make a huge difference in success vs. failure.

cats

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2014, 08:53:30 AM »
Do you two have mutual friends?  Mutual friends who have her phone number?  While I would be a bit weirded out by a guy getting my number off the internet, I would find it less creepy if he had gotten it from a friend.  So, assuming you have a mutual friend who is potentially sympathetic, I would call them up and say "hey, I was hoping to ask Jane out for coffee sometime but I didn't get a chance the last time I saw her.  I don't suppose you have her number?".  Hopefully the friend will also have some idea of how receptive she would be to being asked out also!

Then, call up the lady in question.  Be sure to mention right off the bat that you got her number from so-and-so, because she's certainly going to be wondering.

socaso

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2014, 09:04:35 AM »
Just to add one opposing view to all the voices out there, I was once asked out at work over the phone by a client of the business and it did not seem creepy to me at all. Now I did have to tell the gentleman I was married and therefore unable to go on a date with him but I could tell he was nervous so I also told him I thought it was a very polite way to ask me out an if I wasn't married I would have accepted.

At that place of business we had a lot of phone traffic and it was my job to answer the phone and talk to the clients so I guess that factors in to me not finding it creepy for him to call. If her job is not customer service and she doesn't normally get a lot of calls during the course of the day then it might come off more awkwardly.

I think you need to rip the Bandaid off this asking out business. You are building it up in your mind far too much. Dating is getting to know people and you should remember that is all you are asking her to do.

G-dog

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2014, 09:39:39 AM »
We used tio (and still) have these things called "phone books", people would look up your number and call you. If her phone number is public record, why is this creepy?

What opis creepy to me is that you seem to have gotten some other information about her (last nam, etc. through some other sleuthing).  Just the way you are expressing this scenario (suppose one liked a person, and the suppose..) and you obvious anxiety and nervousness does seem a bit creepy to me.  I just bring this up for your awareness, and to add the advice for you to work on your confidence here.  Practice what you will say enough so that it flows, but not so much that it is too scripted and stilted (like you not having a backup plan about the movie...). 

Someone suggested you should phrase the invitation as "I am doing X, you should come with me". That struck me as pushy and bossy and maybe weird (depending on delivery.  Think about phrasing slightly differently as "I am going to X, would you like to join me?"  Now it is back to an invitation, vs. a command.

Also prepare for the date to get past your nervousness. As you can see I think the nervousness could send up red flags or just set a tone of 'uncomfortableness' that could be difficult to overcome.  But, if you have easy flowing great conversations with her when you do run into ,her, this may not be as much of an issue.

Russ

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2014, 10:14:03 AM »
@DoubleDown, I like the idea and the general principle of going anyway.  I'd probably modify the language a little bit - what you wrote seems a little bossy/moralistic to me, but I'd probably use something like "Hey, I'm going to X...would you like to join me?"

That's good too -- not as good, but still really good ;-)  Maybe I should make clear, the "you should join me" is not issued as a command; it is a lighthearted, casual, almost offhand comment, like when you would say to a casual friend with a smile, "I go biking every weekend and it's great, you should come with me some time!"

"I'd love for you to join me"

leading without being commanding, I win ;-)

Quote
Listen man, I really applaud you for going after this, and I really want you to succeed, so I hope you'll take 5 - 10 minutes to google "Confident + Funny" or "Cocky + Funny." If you want to make being successful with women 1000% easier, that is the secret formula (of course, it's applied according to your own personality). If you go after this woman without at least looking it up, it's like me saying "I'm going to retire early" without ever bothering to understand or look up the 4% SWR when someone suggests looking it up.

On the other hand, following some of the advice in this thread is likely to leave you coming off as needy, uninteresting, or squarely in "friends" territory (you've already known this woman long enough that you need to act before it's too difficult to turn around from "friends"). As just one example, dinner is pretty much a bad idea (sorry to anyone who suggested it). It's too heavy, too long, doesn't give you (or her) a quick out if it's not going well. Movies have you both just sitting there not talking -- horrible. Going to coffee is perfect: Relatively brief, casual, allows good conversation, and you can always add onto the date if it's going well.

So please do yourself a huge favor and look up cocky + funny. I promise, it will likely be very revealing to you, maybe a bit like discovering MMM for dating instead of personal finance! It sounds like you have already established a great rapport with this woman, and understanding the approach will greatly increase your confidence and likelihood of success taking it to the next level.

meh, all this alpha male / cocky-funny / pick up artist stuff is just a reasonably convincing way of pretending to be a regular interesting & confident person. I guess if you pretend long enough you become it, but I've always thought doing some actual self-discovery was more effective.

dragoncar

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2014, 10:23:58 AM »
We used tio (and still) have these things called "phone books", people would look up your number and call you. If her phone number is public record, why is this creepy?

I think the difference is that you had a choice whether to be in the book or not (although I recall my parents had to pay a small fee to opt out....).

Just to add one opposing view to all the voices out there, I was once asked out at work over the phone by a client of the business and it did not seem creepy to me at all. Now I did have to tell the gentleman I was married and therefore unable to go on a date with him but I could tell he was nervous so I also told him I thought it was a very polite way to ask me out an if I wasn't married I would have accepted.

At that place of business we had a lot of phone traffic and it was my job to answer the phone and talk to the clients so I guess that factors in to me not finding it creepy for him to call. If her job is not customer service and she doesn't normally get a lot of calls during the course of the day then it might come off more awkwardly.

I think you need to rip the Bandaid off this asking out business. You are building it up in your mind far too much. Dating is getting to know people and you should remember that is all you are asking her to do.

As they say, it's not creepy if you are attractive :-)  (you didn't say, but...)

SDREMNGR

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2014, 03:21:57 PM »
Forget about all the nuanced stuff.  If you can't talk to her, how are you going to get to sleeping with her, marry her, or any of the other stuff that you may eventually hope to get to do.

Practice your social interactions with everyone, not just women you are interested in.  That's the hardest of them all.  Talk to strangers, girl's you aren't interested in, etc. Work yourself up although this particular girl may be gone by tjen, you may find others.

Btw, there are better forums than this one to ask this sort of stuff.  Not sure that Mustachians are a particularly good subsection of people to ask.

scrubbyfish

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2014, 10:15:12 PM »
I'm here only to applaud your courage!

I (female) also have some degree of social anxiety, am in my 40s, have deep empathy combined with some trouble reading social cues, etc. My main challenge around the social cues is that I cannot seem to read that people want me around. I assume they don't, thus wander off, only to receive word later that this was sad for them. Oh!

From the perspective of someone with some of the same stuff going on, I'm just so impressed that you're exploring this and intent on figuring it out! If she says yes, and you one day share this thread with her, she will appreciate the thought and care you put into how to approach her -it's very sweet and considerate!

Me, I've had several relationships, but very little "dating", and even less asking people out. I'm newly practicing it, so I'm right there with you! Best of success to you!

Ashyukun

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2014, 08:38:32 AM »
I'd definitely agree that practicing and just getting better at social interactions as a whole will help a lot. Even some things that you'd not expect to really make a difference can. I've always had a hard time talking on the phone, and oddly also having problems leaving messages on voicemail. But a few years back (getting now to be more than just a few years I suppose...) a friend and I decided we were going to do an iPhone Apps podcast, and did that nearly every week for several years. Simply getting better at talking, even in essentially a conversation with someone I was really good friends with, and having to think about what I was saying so I wasn't going Um... well... etc. every other phrase which was a BITCH to edit out before posting I found that I got a LOT more comfortable talking on the phone and better at conversing in general.

As for how to best ask this woman out- I definitely think that simply getting more of a chance to talk to her in general is the best idea. Talk with lots of other people too and it should get easier- you'll still have butterflies when talking with her and especially if you think you've got a good chance to ask her out on a date, but as almost everyone else has said, practice practice practice. And remember, if you do ask her and she says no, it's not the end of the world- it's something I know that even with as often as I've had things not work out (including a marriage) that it can be difficult to lose sight of the fact that ultimately life will go on and it's not worth all the fretting that some of us less comfortable in social situations can do. Wish I were better at taking my own advice sometimes though. :P

ace1224

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2014, 12:19:09 PM »
weirdo here:  i would be flattered at being googled stalked but only if i was already into you.  but like i said i'm usually the freak that thinks stuff like that is romantic

EMP

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2014, 12:25:22 PM »
Any mutual friends?  Pulling her number off google is creepy, but asking a friend for it (I think!) is not.  You can just say "I didn't know how to contact you so I asked Sally."  At least that's what Seinfeld has led me to believe.

Still a decent chance of coming off as creepy.


Interesting.. I don't really see why as your friend has vetted you AND you know her.  If she has a teenaged kid, she is from the era where people were "in the book."  Still, I've never done this so I believe you... Just doesn't seem logically creepy to me.

It worked for my sister's husband.  But I still think she makes fun of him about it.  Less creepy, more weenie. 

chschen

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Re: Ladies, please confirm my suspicions and give me some advice
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2014, 04:26:17 PM »
@DoubleDown, I like the idea and the general principle of going anyway.  I'd probably modify the language a little bit - what you wrote seems a little bossy/moralistic to me, but I'd probably use something like "Hey, I'm going to X...would you like to join me?"

As a girl, I don't think it's bossy/moralistic at all. It's all in *how* you say it: sort of a casual, "hey, you should come!" It sounds friendly and slightly teasing. I'm a skittish sort of person, so I like it when guys can be funny/light-hearted. It takes the pressure off of me, and I tend to like the person better. But then, in the end, I guess it's important to do whatever is comfortable for you since ultimately you want her to like you and not the person you were for five minutes while trying to concoct a way to ask her out.