Kia Niro PHEV vs Toyota Rav4 Prime

[jrhampt]

So, this is a facepunch-worthy question in the first place and both of these vehicles are way more expensive than anything I've ever considered buying before.  Situation is that we want to replace a 20 year old Jeep which we have used for its towing capacity but is nearing end of life with something more efficient.  We are currently a 3-car household (gives self second facepunch) and want to get rid of one of the other cars too in the process.  We have a 2007 Prius and a 2011 diesel VW Golf in addition to the Jeep - both of these get >=40 mpg and can probably get at least another 100k miles out of them.

So in sum, we want something reliable and fuel-efficient with a small all-electric range that can occasionally tow a sailboat (facepunch #3) and will replace the Jeep and one of the other cars. We have narrowed the possibilities down to the Kia Niro PHEV and the Toyota Rav 4 Prime.

These are the main pros of each as I see it (I lean toward the Kia Niro while my spouse leans toward the Rav 4):

Rav 4 pros:
Longer electric range (42 miles vs 33 miles Niro)
More room inside
More HP
All wheel drive (vs Niro front wheel drive - I'm not sure this matters too much to me, but spouse feels differently)

Niro pros:
>50 mpg (vs 38 for rav 4)
Less expensive (by about $10k)
More torque (not sure what this means but important to spouse for towing purposes maybe?)
Longer warranty (100k miles vs 36k miles for Rav 4)

Both vehicles would meet needs for towing.  I'm not sure which would be considered more reliable, but that's my other main criteria for car selection aside from price and fuel efficiency/electric range.  Does anyone have experience with either of these two vehicles and an argument for why one is a better choice over the other?

Edited to add FWD vs AWD

[dividendman]

I'm also considering some kind of vehicle like these ones, posting to follow.

[bacchi]

How much driving would this vehicle do in an average day? If it's under ~30 miles, the extra EV range is useless.

[jrhampt]

How much driving would this vehicle do in an average day? If it's under ~30 miles, the extra EV range is useless.

In an average day, we would be under 30 miles.  Agreed.

[bacchi]

Also, as you thought, torque is more important than HP for towing. I'm sure the Niro has enough HP to maintain a fast speed but it's not the main concern.

Then you have the room inside. How many people will ride inside when you're towing? Are they comfortable in the smaller Niro with all their gear?

If you're not squished in the Niro, the only advantage of the RAV4 is the AWD. How often do you drive in snow or on dirt roads?

[jrhampt]

Also, as you thought, torque is more important than HP for towing. I'm sure the Niro has enough HP to maintain a fast speed but it's not the main concern.

Then you have the room inside. How many people will ride inside when you're towing? Are they comfortable in the smaller Niro with all their gear?

If you're not squished in the Niro, the only advantage of the RAV4 is the AWD. How often do you drive in snow or on dirt roads?

The vast majority of the time it will be just two people.  We're both tall, but I've driven in compacts/sub compacts my entire life and it's been fine.  We're in New England, so we do drive in snow and on dirt roads, but it's not too often.  I've never driven an AWD vehicle myself, but my spouse does drive us in the Jeep sometimes when we need to go somewhere in the snow and/or get to a hiking trail entrance along a dirt road (but in a pinch even the prius can handle dirt roads at a slow speed, so I don't think this is a big deal).  It's nice to have sometimes if the in-laws have a medical/loss of power emergency in the winter for example, but I don't think it's crucial.  All of these factors are why my preference is the Kia, with my only real questions being around the comparative reliability of both vehicles.

[SunnyDays]

I don't know anything about EVs, but I would buy any Toyota over any Kia.  The latter is not nearly as reliable as the former, in my opinion.

[jeninco]

Well, there's this reason: https://www.thedrive.com/news/how-thieves-are-stealing-hyundais-and-kias-with-just-a-usb-cable

[sonofsven]

Just based on (deserved) reputation I would get the Toyota and sell the VW.

[Dee18]

I test drove the RAV4 and decided not to buy it, but that was because it was terribly uncomfortable for me (I am small and thin and felt every tiny bump in the road in my spine (why aren’t they putting padding in the seats of $45,000+ vehicles?) and because both my partner and I got headaches immediately (and he was nauseous). We have pretty definitively linked that reaction to Toyota’s Softex fake leather, after driving some of their other models. If the test ride had gone okay I would have bought it. The charging system seemed convenient since it would work fine on the outside plug on my home. I have not looked at the Kia Nero because it doesn’t have a spare tire.

[jeninco]

I test drove the RAV4 and decided not to buy it, but that was because it was terribly uncomfortable for me (I am small and thin and felt every tiny bump in the road in my spine (why aren’t they putting padding in the seats of $45,000+ vehicles?) and because both my partner and I got headaches immediately (and he was nauseous). We have pretty definitively linked that reaction to Toyota’s Softex fake leather, after driving some of their other models. If the test ride had gone okay I would have bought it. The charging system seemed convenient since it would work fine on the outside plug on my home. I have not looked at the Kia Nero because it doesn’t have a spare tire.

Our Prius prime didn't come with a spare wheel either, but we got one from the (in our case, used hybrid) dealer.

[ChpBstrd]

I'm curious if you've calculated the cost-per-usage for the sailboat? Have you facepunched yourself hard enough?

You have 2 cars that could go another 100k miles, so the sailboat is supporting its own costs plus the Jeep's costs.

The Jeep probably costs I'm guessing $2,000/year to own if only driven very low mileage for specific uses (liability only insurance, maintenance & tires, gas, registration, property tax, near zero depreciation until it dies).

I don't know what the sailboat costs to own per year, but I'm thinking it needs to be covered with a tarp that wears out annually or a shed that depreciates, the trailer needs tires every 5 years, various repairs will be needed, ropes and sails dry-rot, and then there's insurance and registration. Does $1,000/year sound fair for all these things? I assume you're not paying for storage.

So far we're talking about a $3,000/year hobby to support the sailboat plus the tow vehicle. Divide this number by the times you use the sailboat per year. E.g.
10x = $300 per excursion
5x = $600 per excursion

You are thinking about replacing the Jeep with a vehicle like the 2023 RAV4 Prime SE which according to the Edmunds TCO calculator will cost $47,032 to own for five years in Hartford, Connecticut. That means your tow vehicle costs have gone from $2k/year to about $9400/year. Add the $1k/year sailboat costs and the hobby has gone from a $3k/year hobby to a $10,400/year hobby.

Of course, the comparison so far is unfair because you'll drive the new SUV the vast majority of the time as a primary vehicle, and will probably get rid of one of your old cars in addition to getting rid of the Jeep. Supposing the old cars also cost $2k/year to own, you can get rid of one of them and reduce the cost of the hobby to $8,400/year.

Now your cost of sailboating per use is:
10x = $840 per excursion
5x = $1,680 per excursion

Would you pay that much in cash to rent a similar boat for a day on the lake/ocean? Does the hobby still make sense at this cost structure, or would you rather take different types of vacations while driving the 2 beater cars another 5 years? If you were allocating an $8,400/year recreation budget and didn't already own any vehicles, would you spend it on an SUV+sailboat or would you spend a couple weeks in Europe or the Caribbean each summer?

[jrhampt]

I'm curious if you've calculated the cost-per-usage for the sailboat? Have you facepunched yourself hard enough?

You have 2 cars that could go another 100k miles, so the sailboat is supporting its own costs plus the Jeep's costs.

The Jeep probably costs I'm guessing $2,000/year to own if only driven very low mileage for specific uses (liability only insurance, maintenance & tires, gas, registration, property tax, near zero depreciation until it dies).

I don't know what the sailboat costs to own per year, but I'm thinking it needs to be covered with a tarp that wears out annually or a shed that depreciates, the trailer needs tires every 5 years, various repairs will be needed, ropes and sails dry-rot, and then there's insurance and registration. Does $1,000/year sound fair for all these things? I assume you're not paying for storage.

So far we're talking about a $3,000/year hobby to support the sailboat plus the tow vehicle. Divide this number by the times you use the sailboat per year. E.g.
10x = $300 per excursion
5x = $600 per excursion

You are thinking about replacing the Jeep with a vehicle like the 2023 RAV4 Prime SE which according to the Edmunds TCO calculator will cost $47,032 to own for five years in Hartford, Connecticut. That means your tow vehicle costs have gone from $2k/year to about $9400/year. Add the $1k/year sailboat costs and the hobby has gone from a $3k/year hobby to a $10,400/year hobby.

Of course, the comparison so far is unfair because you'll drive the new SUV the vast majority of the time as a primary vehicle, and will probably get rid of one of your old cars in addition to getting rid of the Jeep. Supposing the old cars also cost $2k/year to own, you can get rid of one of them and reduce the cost of the hobby to $8,400/year.

Now your cost of sailboating per use is:
10x = $840 per excursion
5x = $1,680 per excursion

Would you pay that much in cash to rent a similar boat for a day on the lake/ocean? Does the hobby still make sense at this cost structure, or would you rather take different types of vacations while driving the 2 beater cars another 5 years? If you were allocating an $8,400/year recreation budget and didn't already own any vehicles, would you spend it on an SUV+sailboat or would you spend a couple weeks in Europe or the Caribbean each summer?

I agree with you that sailing is an expensive hobby that there isn't much justification for.  We are FI already, so there is that going for us.  My husband basically wanted another sport to replace volleyball because his knees can't take that anymore (he mountain bikes and pickle balls too, which are easier on the knees), and he loves sailing so we are doing that for at least a few years while we live on the shore...if it goes well, he'd like to live on a boat.  We do have a slip for the boat for ease of use (and so we actually use it a lot), so it only has to be towed a couple times a year.  We also have a scooter which we use for section hiking rather than taking two cars (used to bike, but shorter days in the winter makes it tough to do that in the darker part of the year and it limits the hiking mileage...it's hard to bike uphill after a 15-20 mile day) - and that needs to be towed as well.  That's what we would use it for much more often than towing the boat.  I do wonder if ebikes would be a decent option vs the scooter.

I do have a difficult time justifying spending over 10k on a car, thought I would go the rest of my life buying used cars for not that much cash and driving them until end of life, but used cars are still pretty expensive compared to new cars.  I'd like to get down to two vehicles, and that would be an advantage of doing this - with trade-ins on the Kia Niro, could hopefully get down in the low to mid twenties on cost.  Still more than I'd like to spend, but we would then have two vehicles vs three - both of which would get >40mpg and one of which would go most places on electric range only. 

It is worth considering whether the Jeep could last a couple more years and could try using the cars with ebikes instead for hiking - we'd need about 40 miles of range, and we'd need to get that in cold temperatures and over hills.

[ChpBstrd]

We do have a slip for the boat for ease of use (and so we actually use it a lot), so it only has to be towed a couple times a year. 

What if you just rented a pickup truck from Uhaul when the boat needs to be towed? $19.95 plus $0.69/mile plus gas.

[jrhampt]

We do have a slip for the boat for ease of use (and so we actually use it a lot), so it only has to be towed a couple times a year. 

What if you just rented a pickup truck from Uhaul when the boat needs to be towed? $19.95 plus $0.69/mile plus gas.

That might work if it was just the boat...but then there is the scooter issue.  Which could potentially be replaced with ebikes?

[Radagast]

The Kia will always be cheaper. You “expect” the $10,000 to be $20,000 in 10 years, plus it has lower energy consumption, and I imagine a slightly lower profile so that highway mpg will hold up better at highway speeds. Have. You tried it? I imagine it would also be nicer inside. Difference in either based on tax credits?

The only real thing is towing. I always heard it was better to have some rear wheel propulsion because the trailer balances more weight on the back and lifts weight off the front a bit.

I have a Pacifica with 33 miles electric, and wish it was longer about once a week even though we in theory rarely need it. Sometimes we just forget to plug it in, and that 18 miles is just too much the second day. Sometimes we just do something that needs more than 33 miles.

[uniwelder]

Have you looked at the tow rating for the Niro? I can’t find it at all. Even on Kia’s site, the column for tow capacity is crossed through.

[dividendman]

I am keeping tabs on the Rav4 prime because the Rav4 is selling with such volume, that in a few years I think there will be a ton of them on the used car market, especially if a big recession hits. I hope I'm right!

[jrhampt]

I am keeping tabs on the Rav4 prime because the Rav4 is selling with such volume, that in a few years I think there will be a ton of them on the used car market, especially if a big recession hits. I hope I'm right!

Oh, I like this theory.  I would like the used car market to go back to being reasonable again.