Author Topic: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning  (Read 63711 times)

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5569
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #200 on: April 09, 2015, 04:27:47 PM »
This
Quote
It isn't simple when one doesn't want to change.
Plus this
Quote
No counseling, therapy, or compromise is going to work.
plus this
Quote
There can be no compromise, we have to go all in!

presents an unwinnable situation.

Good luck.

supomglol

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 79
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #201 on: April 09, 2015, 05:23:10 PM »
Good luck to you, I think you will eventually arrive at the solution. 

mm1970

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6664
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #202 on: April 09, 2015, 05:35:51 PM »

She is a lady of a fair amount of leisure, and don't let her convince you otherwise.

She was working and saving money, living below her means "in the black" until she married you at age 40. Suddenly, while married, her spending increased to the point where her outlays for things like organic groceries, naturopath doctors, weekend getaways with saltwater pools, etc, were higher than the money she was taking home working part-time. If she is having health problems and lacking energy, this is even more reason to take saving for retirement seriously, if you don't want to both work until the day you die.

The thread swings all over the place. You realize she needs to work more and bring home more money, but then you defend how much work she does around the home. You won't accept divorce as an option, but you are okay living separately and essentially leaving her. You don't know how she spends her time, but you are sure it's "working her ass off." You know your marriage has communication problems, but you don't think there's any way to solve them.

It sounds like she is playing both sides of the card in many regards. She wants a job that is fulfilling and is important to her, but won't accept that her current $12k earnings aren't enough to support the lifestyle she wants. She is CHOOSING to drive to their houses (in an inefficient car that will cost you way more in repairs until you ditch it, no less) to make less than minimum wage, but then wants to complain about how tired driving all day makes her.

So many things in the life you're describing aren't optimal, from a financial or just general happiness perspective. But when people point these out, there's no possible way you could make changes or apply them to your situation. You say you are committed to the MMM way, but I don't think you've really internalized how many changes you will need to make to implement a mustachian lifestyle. Maybe you and your wife need to mull over your life situation (work, contributions to the household income stream, how you are going to spend money, priorities for paying down debt vs. lifestyle experiences, housing opportunities, etc) together and figure out a way forward, instead of you just presenting her with plans that she doesn't want to follow.

You are right. If I was single, this would be easy. But I'm not. I'm ready to do anything, she is not. For too many reasons. No amount of advice will change this. No amount of inquiry into our situation, my answers, your further inquiry, my answers, your incredulity, my rebuttal...NONE OF THAT WILL CHANGE OUR SITUATION.

This has turned into a therapy thread, and I made the mistake of explaining our situation over and over again. About 75% of the time you people are misunderstanding and I have to clarify. I AM TELLING YOU HER REASONS, NOT MINE. For me? This is easy. I'm all-in and I'm raring to go. For her? No. And you all want to know why. So I tell you. You answer me...but it does NOT MATTER. SHE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE, ok? She's been like she is her whole life.

i.e. THE HOUSE IS NOT DIRTY AND DOESN'T NEED TO BE CLEANED. Doesn't matter. MY WIFE WANTS TO CLEAN IT ANYWAY BECAUSE IT IS "FILTHY". Nothing any of you can say will change that fact. NO matter how many rooms you close, how many you use...IT ALL HAS TO BE CLEANED. THIS IS THE WAY SHE IS.

It isn't simple when one doesn't want to change. She needs to make more money, but she won't quit massage. Period. No amount of MMM advice will change that. None. It doesn't matter what I say or do, how hard core I am, what lengths I will go to...SHE is not going to put up with it.

She doesn't want to sell the Landcruiser. I can't make her. It's in her name. NOTHING ANY OF YOU CAN SAY WILL CHANGE THIS. No advice will work. She will not sell it. Move on to the next thing.

You have all made valid points. Sometimes there is not solution. I am married to someone who isn't ready to do this, for her own reasons, which you people don't agree with. IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT YOU DON'T AGREE, SHE DOESN'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK.

And, for the record, I am not TELLING her what to do. I presented her with my idea. She went off like Mussolini from the balcony. How many times do I have to tell you people she will not go for this MMM stuff?

You ALL give great advice, and I'm lapping it up. But I'm married and I'm on my own here. No counseling, therapy, or compromise is going to work. There can be no compromise, we have to go all in!

So I'm not going to post anymore about this. I'll post again after I get the news about the new job, how I'm making progress, and how it all worked out. Until then, thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it.
Yep, she's an adult and you cannot change her.  Nobody can. 

If you change, there's a possibility that she'll see it and also want to change.

Or maybe she won't.

If you refuse to support her if you move, then that may force her to change.

Or maybe it won't.

My husband has always been frugal, but when I first got frugal, I suggested we cancel cable.  You'd have think I kicked his dog (we don't have one). 

Four years later he suggests we cut cable.  (Inconveniently right before I went on mat leave, but whatever.)

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4287
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #203 on: April 09, 2015, 08:07:56 PM »
Dagiffy, I know you said you aren't going to post anymore about this.  But can I suggest two thingsL

1) try the plan suggested above: ask your wife if SHE would be willing to come up with a plan that she would be willing to do in order for you two to get out of debt.

2) If she refuses, go see a divorce lawyer, explain the situation, and see if he/she thinks you have a case. A consult should be free.

Ascotillion

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #204 on: April 09, 2015, 08:13:10 PM »
If I'm being blunt, you sound like you're making a martyr out of yourself here. People are giving you good advice but you're insistent that a divorce won't work because of financial reasons (apparently wrong, I don't know anything about America) and personal moral reasons (outdated and a bit stupid - who takes marriage vows completely literally anyway).

Most of the people here are in agreement that the marriage sounds unhappy. You're giving your side of the story where you're the perfect understanding husband and she's the evil, manipulative shrew (that's not to say it's not true, but we don't have any other sides to compare) and you seem to be just following the script of what a good husband does without really thinking about it. Look at the difference between the happiness gained by being what you think is a good person and suffering for decades or actually doing what you want to do in life without albatrosses around your neck. Yes, it's callous and rude.

That said, this is good reading. I'll be devouring this thread as it happens.

kathrynd

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #205 on: April 09, 2015, 08:43:32 PM »
Dagiffy,

Sorry you are going thru this.
It sounds like realty is hitting you pretty quickly, that your wife is not on board, and never will be.

You will never get ahead or retire early while being married to this particular woman.
By letting her go, maybe  she will find a 'sugar daddy' and you will find someone more compatible.

I would suggest, that you cancel all the credit cards and credit NOW.
It may  decrease your credit  score, but if you ever need to use it, you can always explain your reasons why.
Paying off the cards , while she has the ability to run up the card again, is futile.

If you move for that job, you may want get a legal separation prior.
Don't send back any money.
If the mobile phone/ cable etc  are  in your name, transfer them to your wife's name...or cancel them, so she can connect them in her name. If they refuse to connect in her name, that is a great lesson for her to learn.

She already has the income to support herself, while living in a free rent home.
When this place sells, she can then decide whether to find another home to be a 'care taker' for, or get a better paying job to pay rent somewhere.

You know what you need to do
It's your choice to make.

She may be a really nice person,but she is  going to financially ruin you, if you allow it.





ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5030
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • Insert Snappy Title Here (Journal)
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #206 on: April 09, 2015, 08:48:23 PM »
Phew, dagiffy1, what a thread! I really feel for you as well as the frustration that I am sensing from other posters. Mainly though it makes me feel weary to think about you in your current partnership because your marriage feels to me like a lead weight, not something supportive. I imagine it is hard for you to get a sense of what I mean because you are in the thick of it and have been for a while. Additionally your are nobly (sacrificingly?) loyal to your wife which seems to give you the sense that you are powerless to change a lot in your situation.

In my humble opinion, a marriage is a partnership. Your partner should lift you up, bring out the best in you, support your hopes and dreams because they are JOINT hopes and dreams. I don't see that you have that. I see that you are trying with all your might to paddle up stream while your wife is letting water seep in the boat and simultaneously rowing in the opposite direction. You are spending a ton of energy trying to do the right thing (and let me say, you have made dramatic strides in a very short amount of time; hats off to you) but what you can do is limited, as you are well aware.

Have you thrown all the money stuff aside and tried to talk to her about her dreams? What does she really want in life? What does that look like and what would it take to get there? Do those dreams look anything like your own? Once you get the dreams down, can you then begin to talk about what it will take $$-wise to make those dreams a reality?

I really admire your commitment to your marriage. Frankly though you sound miserable. Aside from a sense of duty, I see no reason for you to waste the precious years left in your life in a situation that does not support your needs, emotionally, spiritually, financially. Just because your wife is a nice person does not mean that she is the right person for you or that you are obligated to stay with her and continue to support her self-defeating ways. It is permissible to put yourself and your needs first. Good luck. We are all rooting for you.

Cinder

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
  • Location: Central PA
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #207 on: April 09, 2015, 08:49:18 PM »
i.e. THE HOUSE IS NOT DIRTY AND DOESN'T NEED TO BE CLEANED. Doesn't matter. MY WIFE WANTS TO CLEAN IT ANYWAY BECAUSE IT IS "FILTHY". Nothing any of you can say will change that fact. NO matter how many rooms you close, how many you use...IT ALL HAS TO BE CLEANED. THIS IS THE WAY SHE IS.

My mother would run the vacuum 2x per day, constantly dust things and everything had to be just the right way.  Whenever anyone would visit, she would apologize for how terrible/messy the house was (it wasn't.)   

She also wasn't very logical/reasonable... whatever she thought was true, she would always believe that and it took a LOT to convince her otherwise. 

Faraday

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1192
  • Age: 57
  • Location: NC
  • Solar Powered Slice
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #208 on: April 09, 2015, 09:50:34 PM »
Damn. I had a big 'ol response a few nights ago that got wiped out when my computer crapped out. (storms here lately). Now I'm very sorry I didn't post what I wrote. I'll try to re-conjure and summarise:

Wholly Krappe people, lay off the wife unit here! This guy found us, confessed his financial sins, then we started stabbing the wife with lawn darts right in the face. WTF? All I can think of here is the Monty Python scene where the crowd wants to burn the cute little blonde because "She's a witch!"

Back up a minute with me and review some of the critical points here:

OP has taken responsibility for the vast majority of the debt (or damn near all of it). He's excited about fixing that and he's looking for us to help. Some good advice has been given. Most excellent.

OP has told us his wife is very highly EMPATHETIC. She probably likes the weekend getaways because it gets her closer to her HUSBAND and away from all the other needy folks with whom she's EMPATHIZING. If she's as sensitive as he says, she feels the pull between her empathy for her clients/friends/supplicants and her husband, and she spends money because she knows he really, really likes to spend money.

Remember, OP told us how empathy was his wife's superpower, and he said "she will come along with things later after she figures it out". Let's look at that a little differently: She will come along when she finds a way to empathize with OP and she's sure he's not turned into a freaking fruit loop. OP all but painted this big, giant billboard for us that says "I AM IMPULSIVE". Wife ain't no fool. She knows this very well by now - she's the empath, they are good at that stuff.

Suddenly, OP gets MMM Religion, makes this giant about-face, starts saying things and talking things that the wife has never, ever heard come out of his mouth before.

Never, EVER heard come out of his mouth before. And it's words totally counter to the spend-spend-spend culture in the US. Naturally, she's skeptical. She's gotta let this cake bake a few days and see if it's something delicious, or if it comes out of the oven a flaming bag of poo.

What's one of the first things OP does after he gets religion (at OUR urging?)??? After knowing she grew up poor as hell, he starts to question her frugality creds. Suddenly and without warning, based on Internet Strangers urging, Dear Husband is turning into this...person...that she doesn't know and can't EMPATHIZE with and seems to have FORGOTTEN that she knows all about frugality and self denial and stoic living - been there, done that. And dear husband is acting like SHE'S the one spending him into the ground?!?!?

And now, OP goes to her talking about how he needs to move away and they need to live apart so he can settle a $22k debt. She not only thinks he's gone batshit crazy, she feels like she's been stabbed in the heart.

She asks him for his support if he does this, just to see if he still actually loves her or not. And you rats here on the forums are telling the OP to give her the 'ol heave-ho if she doesn't pack his bags for him. WTF?

Don't forget - while she's cleaning this giant, filthy house, she's got time to think and stew on this stuff. She's thinking there must be a whore in all this somewhere - why would dear husband give a crap what Internet Strangers think anyway?!?

dagiffy, I'm gonna shoot my mouth off at you a bit. Let me know if you think I'm full of it or not:

1) Your wife will "come along" with you when you give her the ability to empathize - give her the opportunity to read you, meditate, and help. Your wife is a therapist in life and needs to be able to offer aid and comfort to feel connection and...empathy.

You've got to ask for her help making your new religion work. Not talk to her about what she's got to give up RIGHT NOW. This isn't about stabbing her in the eye, it's about identifying the highest-impact financial moves you can make RIGHT NOW. You've already said the magic words: You are in kind-of a "Dave Ramsey style situation".

So, dagiffy, you confess your financial sins to your wife just as you have to us, (you have done this, right?), you explain how you've "got religion", and you explain that you realize, if you don't put this new religion into practice, that if you ever got hit by a bus, your DW would be a bag lady hanging out at the WalMart and life as she knows it would end.

Then, you explain that if you keep screwing up like you have, she'll be a bag lady down at WalMart anyway, because there will be nothing to live on.

Your wife's ability to deliver therapy and aid to anyone else will evaporate. There will be no Land<anything>, no nothing. Who you are as a couple and anything you have achieved up to this point will evaporate into nothingness. It will be as if you have never existed.


And then you identify for her the debt you are going to work on first. You explain to her what you are going to do about that, and you beg her to help you funnel your income at that debt like a flamethrower of love.

2) DON'T argue with her about the job you MIGHT get back MAYBE SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE. Take steps to get the job (for the purposes of losing the $22k debt), see if they offer it to you, THEN discuss with her what to do.

One thing you BETTER do, though, is figure out how long you have to work there to get that $22k forgiveness. If it's 20 years, that's just stupid. Figure out what the minimum time is that you'd need to be there (I'm sure you knew that from the prior employment) and use that as the number to discuss with your wife as the minimum time you need to live separate.)

3) You DO know that to an empath, the idea of living separately is damn near a death sentence anyway, right? You DO know that YOU provide your wife with shelter from the needs she's constantly serving out in the world - you are her recharger, her energy, her driving light in the pouring rain. If you take this job that requires you to live separate, it's gonna hurt bad.

Think about all the really shitty parts of this. You could end up missing those all-important birthdays, holidays, anniversaries, weekends and just random "today sucked" days with her.

She never forgets your birthday, isn't that right? And the time or two you've forgotten or nearly-forgotten hers, it was like you stabbed her in the heart, right? If you take the job, is it going to make it difficult for you to heed the call and be the husband she needs?

4) When you've picked your easy debt to resolve quickly, resolve that debt, then make a big deal out of it. Talk about the monthly $$'s you'll now have that you can put toward other debts. Then you know what you do? You take your beautiful wife out to a decent dinner at a place she likes.

Yeah, i said it. Waste just a LITTLE bit more money...to show her how much you appreciate her teaming with you to wipe out that debt. Make that accomplishment feel good, show her how you want to celebrate it with her and how much you appreciate her help.

5) One final thing: pick a project, an objective, a need that SHE has, and work with HER on it. When I got the MMM religion and my wife unit wasn't on board, I explained to her how we could use what I've learned to fund a project SHE wanted. I took a pause from my rabid paying-down-debt efforts, we started a new bank account and when we got to a $$ value she needed, we executed on a project for HER. We pulled together to accomplish something important to HER. Let me tell you, it made all the difference. My wife pulls with me on this like crazy and does a great, great job now where before, she didn't.

My biggest danger? Is when I slip up and buy something I shouldn't have. It sends the wrong signal, so I've learned not to do that, to keep on pushing toward the objective and celebrate with her when we DO make that objective.

And most important, most vital of all: Once you have the MMM religion, you don't let go. Hear me? You've started down a path you cannot jump off - you've got to stay on this path so she'll know you are serious, so she will be able to see how all this crap benefits her in the long run.

When you do that, like you said earlier in the thread, this woman will pull the same direction with you like a draft horse. And you'll be that man she loves to empathize with.

dagiffy, thanks for your postings in this thread and KUDOS to you for finding us and for wanting to turn your life around. DON'T LOSE THE FAITH, and BRING HER ALONG as you change!

I wouldn't blame you if you told us all to go to hell. It's not like any of our scurvy asses are coming to your McMansion tomorrow morning to cook you breakfast. Oh, that's right, SHE does that, the empathetic one!

And if you need to, show her what I've written. Tell her there's another guy like you married to another woman like her, out here on MMM. Tell her that we were up to our asses in debt, I damn near ran my wife off talking about this MMM crap.

Tell her that when I quit blaming my wife for nickels and dimes, and instead attacked the DOLLARS I was wasting, we worked our way out of $50k of debt. After only a few years, we're out of debt (except mortgage) and we're up $250k.

Tell her that at the age of 53, I could be facing a layoff soon (I'm the major earner and carry the bennies) but that we are in the best position we've ever been in to survive the layoff and find the next opportunity. We aren't sweating a buttload of debt and wondering what to sell to buy our next meal because today we can now thrive on her salary alone, where before, we could not make it on both our salaries combined.

Imagine that in your case. Being able to live debt-free on HER salary alone. Wow...that's an awesome thought, isn't it?

The true breakthrough for me was to quit sweating the damned small stuff and attack the big stuff that wasn't caused by her individually at all. Just set a course, tell her about it, and GO. Then celebrate when that one is done and move on to the next one.

OK, I'll shut up now 'cause my wife tells me sometimes I talk too much..... :-)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 10:37:32 PM by mefla »

kathrynd

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #209 on: April 09, 2015, 11:10:30 PM »
Without going back through all the posts..I believe the OP stated they lived on student loans.
The wife earned money too, but the majority of the income came from the student loans?

I don't think anyone is attacking the wife.

The OP has discovered he is drowning (his words)

He doesn't have a lot of time to fix this situation.
He needs to be aware, that fixing the debt problem, only to have the wife undo everything, would be devastating.

Ascotillion

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #210 on: April 09, 2015, 11:43:50 PM »
I don't think we should demonise his wife but he's said constantly that the marriage doesn't work because they're too different and he explicitly said "compromise is not an option". Demonising the marriage seems more accurate and doesn't lay the blame on either party.

HowMuchCanAKoalaBear

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #211 on: April 10, 2015, 12:43:10 AM »
To the OP  you have just discovered MMM,  realised you need to pay off debts, save and invest more and would get to retire sooner that you thought, you're pretty pumped . Wifey doesn't want any bar of it because she already retired ages ago she already works? 3 hrs a week so what does she care ?

Good luck with changing her mind.




Faraday

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1192
  • Age: 57
  • Location: NC
  • Solar Powered Slice
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #212 on: April 10, 2015, 05:41:20 AM »
I will add that it's 1 AM, and there's been so much equivocation and slowly revealed details in here that it's very possible I'm misremembering things. I do think going forward, they should separate their finances, as other people have suggested, and he would get further with his wife by changing his approach.

Hey MonkeyJenga, stay with me here. You had it right before. :-) :-) :-)

The facts is:
- Dear Husband brought all the debt to the relationship, and then continued to rack it up during.
- Ain't nobody here on MMM forums coming to cook him breakfast. Dear Wife does that.
- These are the Tough Times. You want to bring Dear Wife along with you to the Good Times. When you do, it's awesome.
- Dear Husband doesn't have to turn her into a devotee of frugalism. His mission is to solve this problem, not be a preacher.

Right now is the hard time, and Dear Husband has woken up and realized it. That's most excellent. He's the major breadwinner. That does not mean wife has retired. Everyone keeps forgetting: wife has achieved "zero mortgage overhead" and keeps them in that damn-lucky situation. So she's sheltering them from cost as long as they get to live in that house rent-and-mortgage free. If she's keeping the house clean also, then that's a LOT of value, an awful lot of value right there. So if you are trying to say "wife has retired", you need to go back and re-read the thread. She does a lot of, "outreach work", but that doesn't mean she's quit-out on our poor guy!

When I Found Frugalistic Fervor (FFF, get it? :-) ), I went ape-shit crazy over this stuff. It was the answer to questions I'd been trying to figure out on my own for at least 20 years of a really tough career. I wasn't so easy to live with and I realize that now.

I went nutso on her for incurring $325 INTEREST on a department store credit card. We fought like hell over that damn $325 when we had other debts looming 10x and 20x that size. Instead, I quit attacking her and started to look at how the CREDITOR handled things, and realized the department store had all kinds of damn tricks to KEEP her from paying off her card...to actually PREVENT her from maintaining a zero balance and avoiding interest!

When I figured that out and looked at it that way, all I had to do was attack that recurrent debt. She watched and she saw and learned, I didn't have to say a thing. She realized the store was trying to get their discounts back in credit interest. When I explained to her that $325 eliminated any savings she was getting, she got mad and today there's $0 interest on that card and she pays it off ASAP herself.

And in the meantime, if we need clothing, she's got a way to get it at about 10% of original price now that she knows how to work that vendor's coupons and specials and discounts and sales. I call it her "clothing superpower" and whenever we get in a bind, I call on her to use it and she does. Got me a $350 winter coat I badly needed (I didn't have one at all and winter got really bad this year.) for $45 on sale a year ago January (during a warmer winter).

Know what my Dear Wife used to say? "Well, debt doesn't matter, I figure I'll never retire. I'll just work a job until I die." Know what changed her mind on that? One of her hands got hurt so badly that she couldn't type (she's a medical coder, they HAVE to use a keyboard). When she realized she might not HAVE a choice about working, I didn't have to sell her a damn thing - she got on-board pronto. (Of course, my dramatic "Wal-Mart Bag Lady" prediction helped paint a vivid picture. But that's beside the point... :-) )

Dear Husband has woken up and it's our obligation to support him 110% on that. We aren't their kids and none of us are sleeping in their bed or cooking their breakfast. His marriage is none of our business. Unless someone here on the forums really DOES want run the wife off and cook him breakfast, we aren't here to tell him to ditch her, we are here to help him get from the crappy times to the great times.

There's a real danger here - we don't want Dear Husband to burn out before he makes progress. You all know what I mean: you get the realization, you start working, and when things don't turn around in a month or two or 12, you get discouraged. You're making progress, but you aren't THERE yet. You aren't on the PLUS side, and it gets you down.

We are here to help him turn his newfound religion into action, to help him persist and succeed and bring his wife WITH HIM from the bad times to the great times.

And, he's already told us he's over 50, so the clock's a tickin people. He's gained self awareness and senses his own mortality. We are here to support and provide information, so let's do what WE do and leave dear wife alone, let her do what SHE does.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 05:56:30 AM by mefla »

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #213 on: April 10, 2015, 05:53:41 AM »
mefla - That was an elaborate narrative!

I think most of us are focusing on the wife, because we can't understand how a woman getting paid 70 dollars an hour makes so little and seems to be so unwilling to increase her income. If they are to ever get out of debt and retire, she has to earn more.

I don't see a situation in which the man ruined the long suffering woman through his terrible spending. I see a couple who both consumes too much. Hell, she just spend $800+ on a naturopath! Plus, if the student loans were for living expenses and tuition so that he could get a higher paying job to support both of them, then they are not just his "fault" or responsibility. That's absurd.

Faraday

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1192
  • Age: 57
  • Location: NC
  • Solar Powered Slice
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #214 on: April 10, 2015, 06:08:00 AM »
mefla - That was an elaborate narrative!

I think most of us are focusing on the wife, because we can't understand how a woman getting paid 70 dollars an hour makes so little and seems to be so unwilling to increase her income. If they are to ever get out of debt and retire, she has to earn more.

I don't see a situation in which the man ruined the long suffering woman through his terrible spending. I see a couple who both consumes too much. Hell, she just spend $800+ on a naturopath! Plus, if the student loans were for living expenses and tuition so that he could get a higher paying job to support both of them, then they are not just his "fault" or responsibility. That's absurd.

justajane, you're right, you're right about that. But don't forget:

- Wife "virtual earns" A FREE HOME for the two of them, and she busts her butt cleaning it. HE didn't say anything about HELPING her clean that house - he talked about it like it's HER JOB. No one here has factored in the cost savings she's bringing to all this by avoiding payment of a mortgage. That's HUGE VALUE.
- She's empathetic, so she's had at least the last 9 years to pick up and emulate HIS behavior. No, he's not "ruined the long suffering woman" (I like that... ) but it's going to take awhile to turn her around. Remember, HE's the IMPULSIVE one and he's told us so...
- He's been neglecting the student loans, he told us that. It wasn't that he acquired them, it's that he's letting that nuclear bomb get bigger and bigger until it goes off in their face when their social security is garnished to repay whatever hopeless number it's climbing toward at 7%-or-better interest (I about DIED when I read that...)

justajane, I don't mean to contradict what you are saying (sure looks like I am, sorry about that). OF COURSE you are right about that $800 naturopath. But that dude has debt problems that make $800 look like one baby diaper "oops" vs. an entire broken sewage plant.

When I started my mustachian journey, I and my wife were not in debt to his magnitude, but it was a fairly analogous scenario. And NO, wife wasn't on board - because society was telling her otherwise. When one or the other spouse has "MMM revelation", they've got to understand that we are quite literally being subversive to the constant barrage of messages that US capitalism is foisting on us relentlessly: spend spend spend, it's "good for the economy", and here's the credit so you can do it!

It takes awhile for some people to realize that we're really on the front lines of a war for personal freedom. To free ourselves from becoming wage slaves from people who's express intent is to keep us being wage slaves. That's really a kind of conspiracy theory and empaths don't buy conspiracy theories easily. What they know is what they can sense in the immediate locality from the people they love and care for.

We need to be coaching this poor guy to action, not telling him to ditch a wife who's putting a free roof over his head. And here we are running him off...he's all but ditched the thread already. All I can hope for is that sheer curiosity will bring him back to read it - I sure don't expect him to comment any more. It ain't like we're his best buddies if we're telling him to "ditch the wife".

He's gotta show some results of his new religion and I promise you, she'll figure it out - she'll get on board and it will change not only their finances but their relationship as well.

Which reminds me: Has anyone told the poor guy to make up his cash flow spreadsheet so he'll know WHICH debt to attack first? I was quite surprised when I made my cash flow spreadsheet then worked on understanding what my highest costs were and how to affect those costs the most.

Nowhere in the principles of frugalism does it say "Ditch the spouse". Even if said-spouse sucks at money management and "spends with her heart" instead of her head.

It's up to Dear Husband to grow a set and Be The Man. That means attacking the worst of this mess and not his wife.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 06:20:08 AM by mefla »

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #215 on: April 10, 2015, 06:23:19 AM »
mefla - I understand your perspective more now, thanks. You certainly make some good points.

You seem very focused on the adjective "empathetic" and extrapolating a lot from that one word. But, point taken, they've been living a certain way for years and years. He just found the MMM religion and is expecting her to change overnight. That's likely unrealistic and also unfair. I didn't call him out on it originally, but I thought it was a terrible idea to read these posts to his wife. In hindsight, I should have considered that lapse of judgement in my perception of the situation.

I don't think anyone's intent here was to "run him off." We only know what the OP tells us, and while you are clearly more in tune to the other side of the coin (i.e. the wife's perspective), you must also recognize that you are filling in gaps that might not be accurate either. I still maintain that if, when confronted with the severity of their financial situation, an individual is not willing to change one thing about their spending practices/perception of cleanliness/job situation, then that person is intractable. That is certainly how she comes across here, even factoring in bias.

If I can speak for myself, though, I have to admit that one reason I was reacting as such was their relative age and debt load. They both need to do a 180 ASAP, and it will take both of the on board to do so. If they were 30, I probably would have reacted differently.

Dagiffy1, I know you and your wife are real people on the other side of this screen, and I am sorry if my advice or words caused undue distress or strife.

Cinder

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
  • Location: Central PA
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #216 on: April 10, 2015, 06:45:55 AM »
... Amazing Advice ...

Wow.. Thanks for that Mefla!  As someone who is a more rational/logical thinker, it's hard to put yourself in that mindset.  Lots of times I feel like I'm bucking against the train with my wife, and why won't she just see that the numbers make it all make sense!  It's hard for me to express things the way you have above, and I'm sure it's a hard learned skill. 

It's a very good alternate viewpoint for this situation.

Pigeon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1193
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #217 on: April 10, 2015, 06:51:57 AM »
mefla +100

We get one side of the story. I find these stories where somebody joins the cult and expects their spouse to buy into it instantly very sad. The inevitable board suggestion is to divorce immediately. Or for the new cult member, usually the guy, to start treating his wife like a child.

If you have been living a certain way for years, it isn't unreasonable to expect that change might take a little time. Marriage is a partnership. The OP has a bunch of excuses about why counseling won't work. The my way or the highway approach is rarely successful.

OP I hope it works out for you.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 07:04:43 AM by Pigeon »

Cinder

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
  • Location: Central PA
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #218 on: April 10, 2015, 06:54:24 AM »
She has a thing about cleaning. That's all I'll say about it. She does pet sitting and when she sits for people, let's just say they never ever again want to use anyone but her.

Sounds like she isn't charging enough for the pet service!  You do the first few at a lower introductory rate, and then increase your rates!  OF COURSE people would have you sit for them if you were actually 'below market' for the service you provide!


There are a few rooms closed off to the cats but just a couple. She can't bear that her babies would not be able to be with her wherever she is, whether in bed or elsewhere.

I think they were implying that both of you don't need to use the entire house, so the babies wouldn't be without her...

One word of caution though, we always keep all the doors open in our house, now that the cats are used to it, if any are closed, they tend to scratch at the doors to get in. 


ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Location: Emmaus, PA
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #219 on: April 10, 2015, 07:28:40 AM »
What I've learned is that both OP and wife have spent money on quacks and con artists like naturopaths. Frankly if you are an easy mark you will never be FI because some other fraud can always sell you a more magic crystal or whatever silo of quackery you're in.

Faraday

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1192
  • Age: 57
  • Location: NC
  • Solar Powered Slice
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #220 on: April 10, 2015, 07:57:17 AM »
You seem very focused on the adjective "empathetic" and extrapolating a lot from that one word.....

We only know what the OP tells us, and while you are clearly more in tune to the other side of the coin (i.e. the wife's perspective), you must also recognize that you are filling in gaps that might not be accurate either.

I HATE not knowing the whole story. So I read and re-read these threads that I participate in. He gave us a LOT of info on the wife up-front. Too much, really. That was a clue. What SHOULD he be coming to us for? A case study, not marriage counseling.

Quote
I didn't call him out on it originally, but I thought it was a terrible idea to read these posts to his wife. In hindsight, I should have considered that lapse of judgement in my perception of the situation...

Tru, tru!

Quote
I still maintain that if, when confronted with the severity of their financial situation, an individual is not willing to change one thing about their spending practices/perception of cleanliness/job situation, then that person is intractable. That is certainly how she comes across here, even factoring in bias.

We only know what the OP tells us, right? :-) :-) :-)

Quote
If I can speak for myself, though, I have to admit that one reason I was reacting as such was their relative age and debt load. They both need to do a 180 ASAP, and it will take both of the on board to do so. If they were 30, I probably would have reacted differently.

OMG YES YES YES. Their age...the ticking time bomb is so loud! I think that's why ALL of us here react the way we do in these scenarios. Age makes ALL the difference. The time value of money really does reflect the value of our own time on earth, doesn't it?

Quote
Dagiffy1, I know you and your wife are real people on the other side of this screen, and I am sorry if my advice or words caused undue distress or strife.

Yes yes yes. I hope we hear back soon, and I hope he does these things:
- Start a spreadsheet and list cash inputs/outputs.
- Identify the ones to attack first. Whether you do it  Dave Ramsey style (small but big psych win) or MMM (attack highest interest rate with all vigor), attack SOMETHING and destroy it. Be The Man.
- Celebrate the win and move on to the next item. Feel things get better. Feel the weight lift.
- Start a case study here if you need guidance on the HOW-TO.
- Pray that we've not poisoned the Dear Wife against frugalism itself.


cerebus

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
  • Age: 41
  • Location: South Africa
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #221 on: April 10, 2015, 08:01:06 AM »
What I've learned is that both OP and wife have spent money on quacks and con artists like naturopaths. Frankly if you are an easy mark you will never be FI because some other fraud can always sell you a more magic crystal or whatever silo of quackery you're in.

Yep I don't know, this whole thread just seems like a slow motion trainwreck to me. It's hardly worth talking about FI, more like triage measures to stop the hemorrhaging of money; but it will not be easy to make ends meet in old age, and it might be necessary to rather plan for post-retirement income streams like at-home hairdressing or consultancy work than actual retirement.

wintersun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #222 on: April 10, 2015, 08:47:39 AM »
I would love to see someone create a super simple fact post for this thread, facts only.  I can't seem to do it.  Any takers?


My Two Cents Worth

Phase One: 

Take the $120,000 job and pay off all your debt.  You could see each other 4 times a year and talk on the phone daily.  Plenty of folks do this to save money or pay off debt, look at all the guys on oil rigs, ships and all the Asians who send money back home to their spouse. 

Get YNAB, it is the bomb in my opinion to figure out where you are spending.  Start with it today on trial and see if it is for you.

Create a case study on here.

Figure out how much your wife needs to live on in her opinion, including money for personal expenses.  If she is into naturopaths and is empathic I am guessing she is into a more alternate holistic lifestyle and she may not trust traditional medical stuff. Respect that and make sure she has enough to cover her expenses.  You may not agree with it but it is her belief system and I would posit that she probably knows a great deal more about health than you do and how to ward off long term disease (which is super expensive).

Perhaps your wife can barter some massage for couples counselling in the weeks before you leave. It sounds as though she enjoys the barter economy.

While you are living alone until the debt is paid off you will have loads of time to finesse your YNAB usage. 


Phase Two:
Once the debt is paid off you will know what is next. 


dsmexpat

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 223
  • Age: 30
  • Location: New Mexico
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #223 on: April 10, 2015, 09:09:41 AM »
If you marry a hot 20 year old with options everywhere with no pre-nup who expects you to provide for her while she raises your children and then divorce her when she hits 35 with no life skills or employment history then you're an asshole who should provide for her, that was your part of the deal.

If you marry a 40 year old who already has 22 years under their belt as an independent adult who continues to work and with whom you have no children then you should be contributing equally and should both be able to survive without the other. My wife and I were both very eager to preserve our financial independence going into marriage and we have been successful doing it, but there again we are both adults who aspire to more than being a parasite.

Imustacheyouaquestion

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 257
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #224 on: April 10, 2015, 12:44:04 PM »

- Wife "virtual earns" A FREE HOME for the two of them

I think one of the problematic assumptions here is that living rent-free is a "free lunch" for OP. The status quo situation is to keep living there without thinking about making a change, but they haven't really considered the opportunity costs of living there.

- 25 miles from where he works, requiring a car. He could ditch the Sentra and associated payment by moving to within biking distance of work.
- However many hours of work his wife spends per day cleaning the place (sounds OCD, but who knows). Multiply that by $70 (her hourly rate). Every day they live in the "free" mansion, they're losing hundreds of dollars in potential income if the wife was working outside of the house instead.
- I would assume there are some household supplies being used for the daily cleaning - sprays, paper towels, etc. This could be reduced by moving to small apartment.
- Cable/internet costs are required because there's no smart tv option at the house. Ongoing monthly savings if they move somewhere and cut the cable.

On the whole, the "free" mansion might be a good arrangement for them. But part of the problem is that there is no conscious lifestyle design happening or considering whether alternate options are possible.

ZiziPB

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3272
  • Location: The Other Side
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #225 on: April 10, 2015, 01:18:34 PM »
We haven't heard from the OP in a while.  I suspect it's going to be the usual "crash and burn" case, especially given the emotional ups and downs clearly showing in his posts.  There was no real plan or logic in there whatsoever.

He found MMM 5 days ago, had an epiphany, talked to the wife who is disinterested which put him off and now he's lost interest himself...   

Allie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1744
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #226 on: April 10, 2015, 03:01:05 PM »
Over the past week, OP found MMM, realized he is drowning in debt, made a complete turn around, ambushed his wife with this life change, asserted that his wife will never change, then bowed out.  What. The. Fuck.

It took years and years to get my husband anywhere near on board with a high savings rate.  This doesn't mean he isn't an amazing man or the best husband and father to my children it just means we are two different people with different goals and aspirations.  It certainly doesn't mean we should divorce. 

I would suggest starting with a reasonable plan.  Not a full on, balls out, MMM plan, just a reasonable set of goals.  Ostensibly, the plan is to repay the debt and get to a position where you can retire before your bodies or minds make it impossible to work.  With 150k in debt that should take 3-6 years depending on your ability to tighten the belt and produce income.  That leaves you with a decade or so to build a nice stash to supplement any SS benefits you get. 

There are plenty of stories on this forum of people who dug out of a hole, got a spouse on board, increased income, and went on to have nice plump stashes within a few years.  I have one.  But, I'm certainly not alone.  Good luck!

Start a journal.  It's a friendlier place to air your dirty laundry, with gentle face taps instead of face punches.  :)

frugaldrummer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 655
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #227 on: April 10, 2015, 03:02:05 PM »
Quote
However many hours of work his wife spends per day cleaning the place (sounds OCD, but who knows). Multiply that by $70 (her hourly rate). Every day they live in the "free" mansion, they're losing hundreds of dollars in potential income if the wife was working outside of the house instead.

THIS.  She does sound like she might suffer from OCD, in which case, she IS "working her ass off" because she's obsessing about keeping this giant mansion clean.  And the many hours spent doing that are keeping her from ramping up her business to the anticipated income level. 


kathrynd

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #228 on: April 10, 2015, 06:43:04 PM »
MY husband and I are retired, and we live rent free for the 7-8 months of the year, that we travel.
It isn't a big deal. We certainly don't spend hours and hours cleaning, and the home owners usually always  have pets (we house sit)

Yes, it does sound like the wife is OCD. She could use it to her advantage, and clean houses, or offer her services to clean before and after moving into an apt/house rental.

The OP may be all gung-ho after finding MMM.
Nothing wrong with that. Everytime he turns around the wife is wanting to spend more money. More than she earns.
They don't have children, and she doesn't have the right to quit pulling her weight, especially when she cannot financially survive without him.
She doesnt have the right to continue spending money they don't  have.

If making his breakfast and other meals is a big deal, I'm sure he is quite capable of cooking for himself.

Sounds like there are problems in this marriage, and whether this is the final straw, who knows.
Better to separate now, than wait 5 years, and be in the same debt.

If the OP takes this new higher paying job, she will want to take more weekend vacations...because ' they deserve it'.

Zamboni

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2387
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #229 on: April 10, 2015, 07:26:06 PM »
Wow, this is quite a thread.  I've had it open for several days just reading a few posts at a time for work breaks.

I'm going to stick to simple financial advice that has already been said:

-Absolutely start contributing whatever is needed to get the full company match on the 401K.

-YNAB is worth the money unless you are an excel spreadsheet freak like some of us. Start putting all of your information in it (they have special tips on how to start budgeting from a deficit).

-Working 7 days a week is probably not a good long-term plan.  6 days a week is fine.

-Cut up credit cards.  All of them.  Period.  Definitely cancel any with a zero balance and cancel/freeze the rest (some suggest saving one and literally freezing it in a container of water in the back of the freezer. That way you might have to let it thaw before you can use it which gives plenty of time to reconsider the expenditure.  That doesn't really work, of course, since you just need the number to spend, not the actual card.) 

-You can close a credit card account while you still have a balance, by the way.  Don't worry, they will be happy to close it and keep sending you the bill to pay over time.  You don't need her permission to close them, but it would be prudent to tell her so she is not embarrassed at the store.  Then check your credit reports regularly to make sure she hasn't opened another one you don't know about (yes, I once had a spouse open a joint credit account without my knowledge or permission.)

-Cash only for both of you for all purchases from here on out until the debt is all gone.     

-My opinion is you should ditch the "free" mansion.  They used to pay $800 to have it cleaned and now your wife is cleaning it for them.  Effectively you are paying at least $800 in rent via labor.  It's not really living "rent free."  To say that is delusional.  They have hired you to do a job for them, and you and your wife are under no obligation to keep doing it. Certainly there is no more obligation than with any other job. Seriously consider telling them April (or May) will be the last month you can live there and find somewhere much, much smaller to live.

Just my $0.02.

Good luck on your journey!

Spondulix

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #230 on: April 10, 2015, 08:21:11 PM »
We need to be coaching this poor guy to action, not telling him to ditch a wife who's putting a free roof over his head. And here we are running him off...he's all but ditched the thread already. All I can hope for is that sheer curiosity will bring him back to read it - I sure don't expect him to comment any more. It ain't like we're his best buddies if we're telling him to "ditch the wife".
This thread went from 1000 views to almost 10,000 in the past 24 hours. Another recent discussion about a user who's wife cheated is over 35,000 reads. It's really unfortunate people are genuinely are asking (and need) FINANCIAL help and don't realize they are getting baited for personal information so the herd can analyze their PERSONAL issues like they aren't in the room. I get that they are related, but I would never tell a stranger who's told me three paragraphs about their life (and relationship) to leave their spouse... that's called judgement, not advice.

rothnroll

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 98
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #231 on: April 10, 2015, 10:00:31 PM »
Jeesh,
the sense of entitlement by this guys wife is insulting!

Faraday

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1192
  • Age: 57
  • Location: NC
  • Solar Powered Slice
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #232 on: April 11, 2015, 04:52:09 AM »
Jeesh, the sense of entitlement by this guys wife is insulting!

Hilarity! :-) :-)

This thread went from 1000 views to almost 10,000 in the past 24 hours. Another recent discussion about a user who's wife cheated is over 35,000 reads. It's really unfortunate people are genuinely are asking (and need) FINANCIAL help and don't realize they are getting baited for personal information so the herd can analyze their PERSONAL issues like they aren't in the room. I get that they are related, but I would never tell a stranger who's told me three paragraphs about their life (and relationship) to leave their spouse... that's called judgement, not advice.

+1 Spondulix. I recall your thread where you figured that out. (sheepish grin, that might have been my first "lay off the SO" sermon) I participated in another purely financial thread -  the judgement and poo-flinging were intense with zero regard for situational awareness. I'm starting to suspect the forums have been infiltrated by trolls and 12 year olds with nothing to do but try to ruin lives.  (I'm not exaggerating....) The idea of the "facepunch" is useful, but never in the hands of children and fools.

Personal issues CANNOT be here. There's no way, absolutely no way, anyone in these forums can give valid personal advice or counseling on a relationship. Finances, sure. There is a "high math content" to finances, and that's an area in which a pure stranger on a forum might be able to add wisdom, because the situational awareness required there is LOW: I don't need to know HOW you ended up with your credit card debt to tell you how to prioritize paying it off.

Also beware: in the interest of freedom, there's no overarching, benevolent Solomon who makes things right in ANY objective sense. This place is just a watering hole on the dangerous internet. Horrible things can be said here, just like anywhere else.

There's a kind of wisdom you have to have, about what you say and post here that maybe you've got to be burned before you get it.  It's much more of a shark tank than a welcoming "Occupy" Movement!

And BTW: +1 to what "Zamboni" said above. Your points are all ROCK SOLID!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 05:14:44 AM by mefla »

Zx

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 447
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #233 on: April 11, 2015, 10:38:48 AM »
I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore until things are a bit more settled.

My mistake, and a big mistake, was attempting to explain why my wife says and does the things she does. This got replies and I had to explain more, and so forth and so on and it just got ridiculous.

I couldn't care less about blame or shame or finger pointing or any of it. Who cares? It just has to stop.

I am not going to share any more about our marriage, our relationship, or how my wife is handling all this.

I will just say this for now: At this point today, here at 9am pacific time on Saturday April 11, 2015, I am satisfied with my wife's behavior, frugality, and mindset. I am happy with her efforts to support this MMM mission, and it IS a mission.

I am also satisfied with my own efforts and passion for the mission....


P.S. After saying I won't do it, now I"m doing it. You have to understand that I'm living with a woman that is near 100% feelings on the "logical vs feeling" scale. What she says is usually not what she means. I'm not trying to be funny. On the other side, what YOU mustachians (all of whom I love and have respect for) say is NOT what she hears, and then reacts to. You are trying to be logical, reasonable, and let's say "honest" in your assessments and advice. Worthless.

Forget it. You have NO idea who you are dealing with and are completely CLUELESS in giving her advice, and I am being logical and blunt about this to YOU. No one, not even me, can reach her with plain spoken English. It doesn't work.

The case in point, which gave her a 4 day long swoon into depression and misery, was the now-infamous statement which a lot of you agreed with that said: at 12k annually, she has a hobby. Not a job. Perfectly sensible, right? If you said that about ME and MY job? I'd say, oh, you know something? You're right!

Now, what she heard was...and I quote..."They are telling me that I'm shit. That my job is shit. They are saying I'm worthless and I may as well just go and put a bullet in my head!"

And before you make the logical conclusion that she is mental, bi-polar, or needs therapy, know this: you have to quit using logic with her. She has a legion of friends that love her just how she is, and she them. Her clients become her family. When someone gets cancer and needs a care giver to help with their spouse until they die, they call my wife. Over and over again. She can meet animals for the first time, and in 5 minutes they are ready to leave with her and not even look back at their owners. I've seen her walk up to a fence out in the country, where we saw Texas Longhorns for the first time, 2 out in this field, and she spent 20 minutes at the fence talking to them and got one of them to approach her. Her pets, whether they are cats or dogs or anything else, follow her around like dogs. Cats that won't come when called WILL come when she calls. People who have a fear of being touched and refuse to hug anyone will hug her. She isn't LIKE you. Or me.

You can't talk to her the way you talk to me or most other people and expect to help her. I forget that. A lot.

Now, back to the hobby remark. We have had many conversations about it. She tells me that it didn't matter what you meant. All that matters was how you made her FEEL.

My response was that her feelings were based on a lie, because the insult and derisiveness existed in only one place: her head. If she would have listened to me about what you all MEANT, then she could have saved herself all that suffering. I told her that if you all meant what she FELT you meant, then they wouldn't have said that at 12k annual income, she had a hobby. Not a job. What they would have said was, "You are shit. Your job is shit. You are worthless and may as well go put a bullet in your head."

But nobody said that. What they said was that the income you made revealed what looked far more like a hobby than like a job. That's all. There was no value judgment on you OR your work. At all.

For just a few moments she grasped that idea and calmed down a bit. I think she can do better at discerning what people mean vs what they say, as I deal with her every day and she has gotten better at that. But her natural reaction will be to FEEL and not stop to REASON IT OUT. As I said, it's all in how I present things to her.

If I get excited, as I have been about MMM, I forget that I need to talk to her feelings and not to her brain. As she has time to marinate in it, her feelings will inform her thinking and THEN she gets it. Her way of seeing and interacting with the world has it's advantages and disadvantages, just like yours does and mine does, and trying to explain to you how she is behaving isn't fair to her or you because you have no idea who you are dealing with.

So this is the last post I want to see about how my wife is, how our relationship is, how I need to start acting and talking, or anything else.

What I want, and need, and beg for...from you MMM masters...is the truth about finances. The unvarnished truth. I can take face punches well. It's the body shots that hurt.

I have read your posts, (though not most of the ones on this last page) some of them more than once, and we are implementing what we can implement and things are coming around fast. I'm not going to post in THIS thread anymore, but the next thread I start in the "Ask a Mustachian" area will be a Case Study with all pertinent info, like a month's spending broken down.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 11:04:06 AM by dagiffy1 »

RexualChocolate

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #234 on: April 11, 2015, 10:50:12 AM »
Why did you marry this woman? I'd last a week.

People are welcome to live in their own heads reacting to stimuli at random, but I choose to surround myself with people who share my reality.

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5030
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • Insert Snappy Title Here (Journal)
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #235 on: April 11, 2015, 11:00:11 AM »
Thank you for the explanation, Daggify1. I think another poster was correct that this is a great place to get concrete financial advise and have someone double-check your numbers, but we are not a bunch of relationship gurus. I speak for myself in saying that I am a somewhat typical engineer, though probably stronger in the communication area than math. That said, I think here we all default to logic, numbers, logic, and more numbers. I am married to an engineer who is also very logical (most of the time) so having these types of conversations is really about getting another viewpoint, tweaking some things, and getting suggestions on how we can improve. I don't have to dance around and figure out how to package my message because my partner's mind works very similarly to mind.

What that means is that I (and probably many others here) just don't have an appreciation for what it is like to be married to someone who is so dramatically different, whose mind works so differently, sees the world through a difference lens. You love this woman, married her, and are committed to working with her through all of her quirks. That is on you and we probably are very poorly qualified to understand how to deal with that type of a personality. Like you said, we can give financial advice and support you through your journey.

Good luck and thanks for posting again. We really are rooting for you and want you to succeed.

Davids

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 973
  • Location: Somewhere in the USA.
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #236 on: April 11, 2015, 02:56:59 PM »
Damn, $6K of repairs on a 27 year old car, I would have just junked it and bought a used car for $3K-$4K.

MoneyCat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1754
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #237 on: April 11, 2015, 03:16:25 PM »
You mentioned you were reluctant to get rid of cable because you don't have a smart TV.  If you get a Roku box, then any TV instantly becomes a Smart TV.  The Roku 2 is selling used on Amazon for about $45 right now and then you can stream Netflix, Amazon, Hulu Plus, etc. over it instead of paying for cable.  Can you get over-the-air channels where you live?  That saved me a ton on watching sports.

kathrynd

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
Re: Just Woke Up To Discover I'm Drowning
« Reply #238 on: April 11, 2015, 06:48:20 PM »
Asking for financial support is fine...but until you stop the leaks..nothing you do will change your situation.

Good Luck...you will need it.