Author Topic: Just need to vent...  (Read 15987 times)

freelancerNfulltimer

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Just need to vent...
« on: July 10, 2013, 07:58:21 PM »
I just got married a couple of months ago. I've been living with my husband for almost a year. We're not on the same page financially. He's not reckless, he doesn't have a lot of debt and he lives within his means. But he doesn't work towards savings. He doesn't keep a budget. It's driving me crazy. His parents obviously didn't teach him how to manage money. I've been a saver my whole life and the way he manages him money seems completely counter common sense to me.

He just told me he wants to add $50/month to our cable bill to get a DVR, High-def cable and ESPN. The only reason I have any TV service at all, is because it was cheaper to add the basic TV package on to the internet than to have internet alone. I have to have high-speed internet for work. If it was up to me, I'd rather not have TV at all, because it's a time suck and it's easier for me to just not be tempted.

He has no savings other than his 401k. He doesn't max out his 401k, he maybes puts aside 5% or so. He grew up in a household where you got a new car the moment you paid off your current vehicle. He does not believe me that it's cheaper to drive a car once you pay it off because of "maintenance". He was surprised when I paid my vehicle off that I didn't immediately go buy a new one.

He is slowly making changes and he is open to listening. But I just can't believe the conversation I just had with him. You don't sign up for a $50/month commitment before you have built up SOME emergency savings.

I'm not really asking for advice, I'm just looking to get this off my chest.

Zamboni

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 09:25:21 PM »
Yeah, that's a drag. 

Has he seen this blog?

freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2013, 09:34:38 PM »
Yeah, that's a drag. 

Has he seen this blog?

No, and he won't. The idea of early retirement is a fantasy dream (like dreaming to win the lottery) to him right now. I'm just trying to start out with taking baby steps, like make a grocery budget and not buy a new car every four years.

onehappypanda

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2013, 10:06:40 PM »
I know you aren't looking for suggestions per se, and it sounds like a really frustrating situation so I can see why you need to vent. But for what it's worth: those baby steps you want him to take might make a lot more sense to him if you can put them in the context of larger goals.

If you told me to stop drinking lattes just to "save up" it might not really motivate me. Like what am I saving for, exactly? If you told me that making my own coffee instead of buying lattes could mean being able to afford a down payment on a house, your kid's college education, or 5 less years of working, it'd give me more of a kick in the pants. Just a thought.

One of the reasons I think this blog is so effective is that is isn't just about living frugally as a principle, MMM shows how forgoing rampant consumerism and making wise investment choices can help you achieve goals that you maybe never even thought were attainable. He even does the math on some things (aforementioned lattes)- those kinds of posts might be helpful to your DH.

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2013, 10:21:32 PM »
Hey OP I'm kind of in the same boat. Good luck

I'm told baby steps and leading by example can sometimes help, alternatively split finances and forget about it.

Zamboni

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 05:34:31 AM »
Quote
He is slowly making changes and he is open to listening. But I just can't believe the conversation I just had with him. You don't sign up for a $50/month commitment before you have built up SOME emergency savings.


It's an uphill battle.  I couldn't get my ex-SO to save a dime even when he got 6 months notice that his company was moving and they were all getting laid off.  Instead he decided that he needed to buy things (like a new laptop for himself and a wii for the kids) now while he still had a job.  In 17 years he also never agreed to the fact that it was cheaper to eat at home than go out to eat, for example.

I know you aren't looking for advice :-)
But, since you are a newlywed:
1)  completely separate finances, with a joint account that you must each contribute to (proportional to your income) the amounts needed for monthly bills and that DOESN'T include car payments and optional things that you don't both need like TV, which are separate and individual responsibilities.  He can have any car he wants whenever he wants, as long as it's on his own dime.
2)  convince him that he must max his 401k
3)  get him to agree to save a specific amount a month in a joint savings account for something specific you need as a couple (a house, or a piece of furniture, for example.)

If he respects your views as valuable, then he will do these things and you will compromise by not getting too upset when he goes and buys some worthless junk with "his" money.  If he won't agree to the above, then . . . well then it is looking pretty dire, in which case you have my sympathy.

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 06:27:34 AM »
He just told me he wants to add $50/month to our cable bill to get a DVR, High-def cable and ESPN.

Three of my life's essentials.

KMMK

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2013, 06:33:44 AM »
In addition to separating your money, consider tracking his and your spending. If you have access to his bank statements and credit card bills, just start a spreadsheet with rough categories and do some tracking for a few months of both of your spending and savings. Then, just casually mention, that you have been doing so and would he like to look at "your" numbers? If he agrees to that, show him the actual numbers/chart - with the I've saved 30% last quarter, or whatever the bottom line is. If he is at all interested, you could ask if he wants to see the same for himself, and then show it to him.
If he has zero interest, just let it go, and next 3 months, do the same thing. Repeat, until he tells you to never talk to him about money again, or wants to make some changes himself.

TrulyStashin

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 07:30:15 AM »
I've had similar issues with my teenage son.  My shift to frugality is most unwelcome news in his world. 

Last week, as we were walking in the city, we crossed a bridge and then went down a long flight of stairs under the bridge.  As we passed the area where you could see directly under the bridge, but high up the banked hillside, I mused out loud "That looks pretty dry and safe.  If I'm ever homeless, I'll have to remember this spot."

He looked at me with deer eyes.   I'd been explaining for weeks how the debt I've racked up has me concerned and it had fallen on deaf ears until that very moment.  He hasn't complained a bit since then.

freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 08:12:23 AM »
I know you aren't looking for suggestions per se, and it sounds like a really frustrating situation so I can see why you need to vent. But for what it's worth: those baby steps you want him to take might make a lot more sense to him if you can put them in the context of larger goals.

If you told me to stop drinking lattes just to "save up" it might not really motivate me. Like what am I saving for, exactly? If you told me that making my own coffee instead of buying lattes could mean being able to afford a down payment on a house, your kid's college education, or 5 less years of working, it'd give me more of a kick in the pants. Just a thought.

One of the reasons I think this blog is so effective is that is isn't just about living frugally as a principle, MMM shows how forgoing rampant consumerism and making wise investment choices can help you achieve goals that you maybe never even thought were attainable. He even does the math on some things (aforementioned lattes)- those kinds of posts might be helpful to your DH.

He's really good at listening and coming around to an idea once he's had some time to think about it. So, I really believe that we'll find some common ground on the matter. It was just frustrating to hear about his plans to buy a computer, the new Playstation, and then the additional cable services when we just got married and need to recover from that huge financial drain.

You're right that putting it into context of goals makes a difference. We want to have a baby in two years and $50/month could be a college fund. He think I'm weird because I have like 10 different savings account, each one attached to a different goal.

Currently our finances are completely separate. We're slowly combing on shared things. Groceries are our first attempt at combing money. Even though we've been living together we've still been paying for groceries individually. I budget $250/month for groceries and cleaning supplies. He has no idea how much he spends on groceries and "he has to eat" so he just buys the food he needs.

I also don't like being told that it's easier for me because I make so much more money than he does. Which isn't fair because I pay a larger share of the household expenses. I've only been making my current salary for two years. Prior to that I made less than he makes and I still was able to save money and feel like I was able to live well and splurge on things.


freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2013, 08:14:08 AM »
In addition to separating your money, consider tracking his and your spending. If you have access to his bank statements and credit card bills, just start a spreadsheet with rough categories and do some tracking for a few months of both of your spending and savings. Then, just casually mention, that you have been doing so and would he like to look at "your" numbers? If he agrees to that, show him the actual numbers/chart - with the I've saved 30% last quarter, or whatever the bottom line is. If he is at all interested, you could ask if he wants to see the same for himself, and then show it to him.
If he has zero interest, just let it go, and next 3 months, do the same thing. Repeat, until he tells you to never talk to him about money again, or wants to make some changes himself.

This is a good idea. I'm going to ask him if we can do a weekly bank account review. I'm pretty sure he's spending money in small amounts without thought and that it adds up to a big chunk on a monthly basis.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 08:18:35 AM by freelancerNfulltimer »

freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 08:15:11 AM »
He just told me he wants to add $50/month to our cable bill to get a DVR, High-def cable and ESPN.

Three of my life's essentials.

:) I have no problem adding these things once we've achieved some savings goals and/or incomes have increased. Just right now it doesn't make sense.

cerberusss

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2013, 08:19:29 AM »
It was just frustrating to hear about his plans to buy a computer, the new Playstation, and then the additional cable services when we just got married and need to recover from that huge financial drain.
(...)
He has no idea how much he spends on groceries and "he has to eat" so he just buys the food he needs.

What does all of that matter when your finances are completely separated?

freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2013, 08:32:01 AM »
It was just frustrating to hear about his plans to buy a computer, the new Playstation, and then the additional cable services when we just got married and need to recover from that huge financial drain.
(...)
He has no idea how much he spends on groceries and "he has to eat" so he just buys the food he needs.

What does all of that matter when your finances are completely separated?

It matters because we're building a life together. And we are working on combining finances slowly. I don't want to find out five years in my husband has been hiding $20,000 worth of credit card debt because we never talked about money or that I'm purchasing everything for the house/child/whatever because he never learned to save up for major purchases.

SunshineGirl

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2013, 09:00:39 AM »
I've had similar issues with my teenage son.  My shift to frugality is most unwelcome news in his world. 

Last week, as we were walking in the city, we crossed a bridge and then went down a long flight of stairs under the bridge.  As we passed the area where you could see directly under the bridge, but high up the banked hillside, I mused out loud "That looks pretty dry and safe.  If I'm ever homeless, I'll have to remember this spot."

He looked at me with deer eyes.   I'd been explaining for weeks how the debt I've racked up has me concerned and it had fallen on deaf ears until that very moment.  He hasn't complained a bit since then.

Laughing here!

LalsConstant

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2013, 09:42:52 AM »
Hey freelancer,

This made me come out of the woodwork to comment.  I'm neither female nor married but I have a lot of sympathy for you and empathy for him because I used to be just like that.
I have no advice, but a few observations that might help, or not.  I mean this as trying to lend insight to someone whose plight has moved me, and not as a judgment of anyone.

One of the greatest logical fallacies that the otherwise generally intelligent people in FI/RE/frugality/investing communities engage in is disregarding the fundamental nature of human existence.  Cognitively, somewhere in his psyche, your husband truly knows saving/investing more, being more frugal, et cetera is what he needs to do.  Everyone knows this Mustache stuff, at least the basics anyway.  But knowing is not ability.

The trick isn't knowing, the trick is affecting your personal behavior, and that is, as I can attest, very hard.  One thing I see a lot on this board is harsh and heartless criticism of people who claim they canít save, canít spend less, etc. with commenters acting like this is patently not true at all.  Yes personal finance is something of a First World Problem, and some things deserve to be mocked, but genuinely troubled and helpless people are not among them.  It is entirely possible to exist in a mindset where you really canít conceive how to save money, I know because Iíve been there.  If you canít conceive of it, you literally cannot do it (this is the whole basis for Newspeak after all).   Itís a terrible dark place that people who havenít been there shouldnít be expected to understand.

It is entirely correct for a person to say ďI canít save moneyĒ; what is not correct is to assume thatís the end of it.  That person has to amend it that internalized statement, and until something pushes them to do so they genuinely are powerless.
 
I personally went thru stages:

Learned helplessness - ďI canít saveĒ

Dawning understanding - ďI canít save because these factors prevent itĒ

Aligning my locus of control with reality - ďI canít save because factors prevent it, but some of these factors are under my controlĒ

Accepting fault/responsibility - ďI canít save until I stop doing stupid thingsĒ

Confronting the problem -ďI donít understand why I do stupid things that keep me from being able to save moneyĒ

Ö and somewhere right after that I internalized the idea I can stop doing stupid things and save money, and I, well, stopped doing as many stupid things.  I still do stupid things with money and always shall, but I now have the power to stop doing them as I begin to actually realize they are stupid.  I can save money, but before I really couldnít until I crossed the point where I was more rational than foolish.

This probably sounds ridiculous and trivial to most people who read FI sites, and truthfully I donít expect anyone who hasnít been more foolish than rational with money at some point to grasp the phenomenon even if they understand the concept.  The best takeaway I can give such a person is that one has to start with the fundamental problem, and not ignore it or dismiss it.  If you want to confront reality and be objective about personal finance, you have to acknowledge these mental obstructions are real, they objectively exist, and you must treat them seriously. 

The victim of the mental obstruction has to overcome whatever it is theyíve internalized and realize their problem exists.  Itís true that bad past decisions directly create most peopleís money problems and it is their fault.  However some compassion is merited because the people who have these problems could not possibly have anticipated all the negative consequences of their actions at the time they undertook those actions, they got to such extremes because thatís just what the human mind does.  Thereís a figurative hamster that lives in your brain, running on a wheel of rationalization to spin what youíve done round and round to creates a fictional narrative that is your personal reality.
 
Most people who arenít great with money did not purposefully set out to be the way they are even if they did do something they should not have.   Their behavior and attitude may be ridiculous or frustrating, but itís not wholly of their own design, their very human nature has created the irrationality out of whole cloth as an unintended side effect of a mistake.  I only realize this because I finally realized the hamster was present.

Overcoming it requires some exhausting mental gymnastics that arenít necessary for people who donít have these problems.  I believe it takes the form of emotional buy ins to increasingly rational thoughts about personal finance over time, so even the solutions can look as insane as the problem to someone who hasnít overcome them, and thereís long stretches of time where nothing actually happens other than an internal wrestling match.  At some point something will finally breakthrough, connecting the rational mind to their personal financial behavior in some way, and the person who has the breakthrough probably wonít even realize it yet or see their behavior change immediately or completely. 

It took me years, literally years, to grasp all this.  Even if my current self could talk to my past self, I could not have made my past self understand, I would have thought this was all a load of crap because at the time I was an idiot.  Itís like explaining what blue is to someone who has never been able to see.   Similarly I donít think I can adequately explain it to someone who hasnít been there either.  It is just a state of being that has to come organically.

Iíll conclude with three things that I have learned, and what to realize about them:

It is important to divorce your self esteem from your personal finance skills.   When I was mishandling money, I was deluding myself to thinking I was financially responsible because it was part of my self concept that good people manage money well and I wanted to be a good person, ergo the hamster started running hard.

Comfort is the enemy of change.  My lifestyle when I was hemorrhaging money and exploding in wastefulness was very comfortable; I had to undergo a bad life experience before I could change myself. 

The perfect is the enemy of the good.  I had to learn to accept intermediary and remedial steps forward.  For so long I believed it was pointless to even try because I couldnít emulate the nearly perfect financial behaviors of other people; realizing it was about becoming better than I was rather than trying to emulate someone else was vital.

A person doesnít always have it in their power to realize any of these things because their life may be such that theyíve never had to focus on them before.  For me all three of these epiphanies only occurred because an external circumstance occurred.  Sometimes something bad has to happen to a person before they can find the strength they didnít know they had.

I realize none of this actually helps the problem, but then again it wasnít meant as advice.   I do hope maybe something I said gives some hope, some assurance what youíre feeling is justified even if perhaps it requires some reflection to fully gauge, or at least mild understanding into what your husband could be experiencing.

cerberusss

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 09:58:44 AM »
It matters because we're building a life together. And we are working on combining finances slowly. I don't want to find out five years in my husband has been hiding $20,000 worth of credit card debt because we never talked about money or that I'm purchasing everything for the house/child/whatever because he never learned to save up for major purchases.

Building a life together doesn't automatically mean combining finances. Maybe that's what you expected, but it seems like he does not share that expectation.

To me, it sounds like you need to adjust your expectations. Alternatively, continue to be frustrated and try to change your husband. I can guarantee that changing your husband will negatively affect your marriage.

Honest Abe

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 10:06:49 AM »
My unsolicited advice is: pick your battles, and play the long game. $50/month is not worth getting a divorce over

MakingSenseofCents

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 10:35:22 AM »
I used to have this same problem with my significant other. Thankfully he is on the same page as me now and we are working on living the Mustachian way.

It is hard. Like another commenter said, you will have to pick your battles.

gecko10x

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2013, 10:41:41 AM »
Common goals can be a big help.

But even if you can't get common goals just yet, maybe you can help him set up his goals and define the savings schedule. Sometimes actually seeing the monthly $$ amounts for a few different schedules can be a big eye opener.

StarryC

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2013, 11:50:50 AM »
Building a life together doesn't automatically mean combining finances.

I never really understood this.  I understand how this works with no kids, when you are renting an apartment and you both make relatively equal amounts.  I even understand when you buy a house.  I can sort of get it when one makes $30,000 and the other $50,000.  I really do not understand how building a life together works without some substantial combination when you are legally married, have children, and/or one makes substantially more than the other. 

If one of you is going to deliver a baby from one's own body, that is going to result in a certain period of disability from work.  Presumably, you both wished to possess the baby.  Would the deliverer be expected to have saved up enough during the preceding months to continue contributing her "fair share" during that disability?  If one of you comes to some misfortune, such as a serious unexpected illness or injury, a lost job etc. does the other expect contributions to just continue?  If one party to a marriage undertakes a great deal of debt, I believe that can be allocated to both legally.  Historically, it seems that combining finances/ work output was the main purpose of a marriage.

So, I think you don't have to combine day to day Starbucks budgets, but don't you at some point have to combine essential expenses, emergency funds, and post-marriage debts? 

Anyway, Mint really helped me as a debit/credit card user.  Immediately on signing up you have 3 months of your expenses tracked, and it auto fills your budged based on that.  Bam.  20 minutes of work and a much much better understanding of where I am.  It is the least hardcore budgeting software. 

freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2013, 12:15:44 PM »
My unsolicited advice is: pick your battles, and play the long game. $50/month is not worth getting a divorce over

Yes, because those are my two options, a divorce or be on board with him spending an unncessary $50/month. I agree picking battles is important, but saving is a habit that you learn by doing and a $50/month commitment when you don't have it IS worth having a discussion about.

freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2013, 12:22:10 PM »
It matters because we're building a life together. And we are working on combining finances slowly. I don't want to find out five years in my husband has been hiding $20,000 worth of credit card debt because we never talked about money or that I'm purchasing everything for the house/child/whatever because he never learned to save up for major purchases.

Building a life together doesn't automatically mean combining finances. Maybe that's what you expected, but it seems like he does not share that expectation.

To me, it sounds like you need to adjust your expectations. Alternatively, continue to be frustrated and try to change your husband. I can guarantee that changing your husband will negatively affect your marriage.

Actually, quite the opposite. I don't want to combine finances but he does. In his mind, being married always meant shared finances. I don't want to combine finances. So our compromise is to do it slowly with small shared expenses and work up to bigger things. In order to do this we have talk about our finances and what are savings goals are.


freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2013, 12:26:20 PM »
Hey freelancer,

I personally went thru stages:

Learned helplessness - ďI canít saveĒ

Dawning understanding - ďI canít save because these factors prevent itĒ

Aligning my locus of control with reality - ďI canít save because factors prevent it, but some of these factors are under my controlĒ

Accepting fault/responsibility - ďI canít save until I stop doing stupid thingsĒ

Confronting the problem -ďI donít understand why I do stupid things that keep me from being able to save moneyĒ

Ö and somewhere right after that I internalized the idea I can stop doing stupid things and save money, and I, well, stopped doing as many stupid things.  I still do stupid things with money and always shall, but I now have the power to stop doing them as I begin to actually realize they are stupid.  I can save money, but before I really couldnít until I crossed the point where I was more rational than foolish.


I don't think it sounds ridiculous and I appreciate your thoughtful response. Going by your stages I could say my husband is currently at "Dawning understanding".  I've already gotten some good ideas here about what we can do to work on this together and despite what some posters have cautioned I know he's open to talking about it. The whole reason I posted in the first place was to get some frustration out of my system so I didn't come to him from a place of frustration when we talked about it.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 12:50:25 PM by freelancerNfulltimer »

Zamboni

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2013, 05:16:51 PM »
Quote
If one party to a marriage undertakes a great deal of debt, I believe that can be allocated to both legally.

This is true.

Please resist combining finances.  My spouse used the same tactic the moment we got married, but really it was just an excuse for him to be able to spend all of the money he earned, all of the money I earned, and then some.  And when I finally came to my senses and tried to separate things, there was negative money left despite a couple of decades of six figure incomes.

LaIsConstant, thank you for your post.  Eventually I came to terms with the "I can't save" mentality as a sort of mental illness, but it took me decades to come to that point and I never really understood it.  Your post has brought great clarity to the matter for me.

Adventine

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2013, 08:35:12 PM »
It is entirely possible to exist in a mindset where you really canít conceive how to save money, I know because Iíve been there.  If you canít conceive of it, you literally cannot do it (this is the whole basis for Newspeak after all).   Itís a terrible dark place that people who havenít been there shouldnít be expected to understand.

Thank you for your post. This is 100% true. I have been there. I never used to have any money of my own to spend and my family used to be really hard up. My "I can't ever save money" mindset only started changing when I got my first full time job. Now I save about 60% of my monthly salary.

To the OP, I sympathize. Sometimes people just need to rant about the crazy things their loved ones do. I'm also facing a similar struggle with a partner who I want to spend the rest of my life with, who earns much less than me, and who still insists on wasting an extraordinary amount of money on movies, fast food, and comic books. But... he's a great guy, and I'm sure your husband is too, otherwise you wouldn't spend so much effort trying to help him. Hopefully you can continue to work things out and arrive at a happy compromise.

SwordGuy

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2013, 07:37:40 PM »
I went back and re-read this thread three times before I posted this.

I just got married a couple of months ago. I've been living with my husband for almost a year. We're not on the same page financially. He's not reckless, he doesn't have a lot of debt and he lives within his means.

You obviously have your money management skills well honed.  Congrats.

Your husband is not - unlike most Americans - a financial idiot.  If he were, you would not be able to truthfully make the above comments.  Be happy.  Go give him a kiss.

He just told me he wants to add $50/month to our cable bill to get a DVR, High-def cable and ESPN. The only reason I have any TV service at all, is because it was cheaper to add the basic TV package on to the internet than to have internet alone. I have to have high-speed internet for work. If it was up to me, I'd rather not have TV at all, because it's a time suck and it's easier for me to just not be tempted.

Reasons why you don't want the above services - besides financial or being ignored - are irrelevant.  Just because you don't like doing something is no reason why your husband can't like doing it.

I presume you knew ahead of time that he liked watching sports before you married him.   Why would you be surprised he would want to irrationally want to spend money to watch it?  Giving a rat's ass about which group of strangers plays with a ball better than some other group of strangers is fundamentally irrational to begin with!

He is slowly making changes and he is open to listening. But I just can't believe the conversation I just had with him. You don't sign up for a $50/month commitment before you have built up SOME emergency savings.

Silly him.  After all, he just got married and his household income is now more than double what it was.   Your household is saving way more than the American norm, so why wouldn't he feel a bit flush for the huge sum of $50 a month?

Oh, yes, that's where some of the disconnect is.  He thought he was marrying a full life partner, but you don't exhibit that kind of thinking on this thread.
You don't want to put your finances together yet.  You want them to be separate.  Except, of course, that while you want them to be separate so you can do what you want with YOUR money, you also want to control what he does with HIS money.

Make up your fracking mind!   Either it's HIS money or it's not.    Trying to manipulate it both ways is a pathetic, controlling kind of selfishness.

You are right about the money and the savings.  But you aren't right about your approach.  If you want him to change you've got to show respect, love, partnership and trust.   

Maybe I've got it wrong.  But I wouldn't put up with a spouse treating our finances like you are.  I would not treat the woman I love like that on any topic, financial, hobby, whatever.

Inquizator

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2013, 08:29:40 PM »
He grew up in a household where you got a new car the moment you paid off your current vehicle. He does not believe me that it's cheaper to drive a car once you pay it off because of "maintenance". He was surprised when I paid my vehicle off that I didn't immediately go buy a new one.

Jumping on the unsolicited advice bandwagon: This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKyV8CTHeJ0) actually helped me explain the new vs. used cars concept to my wife. It may not appeal to everyone, but at least in my wife's case it kinda helped make a lot of what I'd been saying 'click' for her.

freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2013, 09:45:12 AM »
Reasons why you don't want the above services - besides financial or being ignored - are irrelevant.  Just because you don't like doing something is no reason why your husband can't like doing it.

I think you're projecting or assuming a lot. You don't know enough about my relationship based on a small window I posted about online. My husband knew my financial point of view when we were dating. And I never said he was a financial idiot. I just said that he's spent his single life going along without a financial safety net and that is not the place I want us to be in. He had an emergency appendectomy when we were still dating. He couldn't afford to pay the medical bills that his insurance didn't cover. Instead of paying those bills he put it out of his mind and continued to buy wants, instead of paying for the surgery he needed. So yes, sometimes I question his financial priorities.

I posted in another thread how I was laid off from my full-time job on Friday so OUR financial situation has changed and because I saved money I will have a cushion to live off of while I find a new job. We will not be singing up for $50/month extra cable services.

At this point I'm done with this thread. I got my frustrations over the situation off my chest and I've gotten some interesting ideas from some of the other more sympathetic posters.

2527

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2013, 12:00:34 PM »
Try to achieve your savings goals before the money reaches your checking account (payroll deductions or something like that) and then let him spend whatever is left however he wants.  Don't make a big deal out of every single purchase or try to keep a detailed budget. As long as you are making your spending goals, it doesn't really matter where the money goes.

My sister-in-law's husband let extra money slip through his hands, so she fixed it by buying a house and committing him to the mortgage payments.  Not the perfect solution, but a solution.

Zamboni

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2013, 02:44:49 PM »
Quote
new vs. used cars concept

Thank you for posting this video!  Not only am I going to use it to help my kids understand the idea of new vs used cars, but I'm going to borrow the graphics/music/narration format for some videos that I'm making for another purpose.

To me the 12% a year is a pretty optimistic assumption, although the gist of the message is correct.

sheepstache

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2013, 05:02:59 PM »
Wow, I can't remember ever seeing you be this harsh on somebody.
Reasons why you don't want the above services - besides financial or being ignored - are irrelevant.  Just because you don't like doing something is no reason why your husband can't like doing it.
To be fair, s/he did label this as a vent.  Who among us has never let off steam about a partner's activities that we don't find valuable?

Silly him.  After all, he just got married and his household income is now more than double what it was.   Your household is saving way more than the American norm, so why wouldn't he feel a bit flush for the huge sum of $50 a month?

Getting married only doubles your income on paper; we know nothing of how it's affected their cost to income ratio.  The common wisdom is that being married is cheaper, but many people simply inflate their living expenses.  Like it sounds like the husband is doing.
And just because he's doing better than the average American we should celebrate?  Pretty low standard, no?  And, again, the context here is that the OP is venting on the MMM forum.
Even the average American seems to understand theoretically that they should have an emergency fund.  That he doesn't have one is really significant to me.  Think of it this way.  If he thinks about it for a minute, he'll see that if he loses his job, he'll be dependent on the OP.  So he's effectively using her money as his emergency fund.  Which is what you're accusing her of, wanting to spend his money his way and wanting to use her money like his own.


StarryC I think has some good examples of ways in which couples must combine financial goals that don't necessarily require shared accounts.  My spouse and I both like having separate accounts.  Sometimes discussing finances as separate is a good way to make sure we're actually on the same page. 

My spouse daydreams all the time about buying a house.  One time I mentioned that I would be able to get my share of the downpayment from selling our apartment, since I was the one who bought it, but that he should work on getting his student loans under control so he could save up his share.  When I mentioned this conversation with a friend, she was shocked and wanted to know why I would think of us as having separate assets if I wasn't thinking of the possibility of divorce down the road.  But it made perfect sense to me based on my husband's psychology.  If he thought of our assets as joint, he'd think of us as doing pretty well, halfway towards our downpayment goal, and figure he didn't have to change anything.  Thinking of it separately, he realizes he needs to change his spending patterns so that he's saving more.  Either way, I'm contributing the same amount to the house goal.
I guess my point is that I might sound unsupportive, but sometimes that's how frank discussion sounds.

CorpRaider

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2013, 05:51:06 PM »
I would go to the mattresses if my wife tried to nix my espn.  Just saying.

Rural

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2013, 05:59:42 PM »
I would go to the mattresses if my wife tried to nix my espn.  Just saying.

He doesn't have it to nix. He wants to add it. With no emergency fund.

Sebastian

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2013, 10:53:59 AM »
Why is it that it seems like this site has more women on here having more money sense than their men?? I wish I had that with my girl! We just got into a bit of an argument last night because I was telling her that I'd like to propose to her but couldn't really afford a nice ring because I'm trying to max out 401K and such.

So I was telling her that I could buy her an inexpensive band then maybe by the time we get married I could buy a better ring.

She hops online and starts looking at "cheap" wedding bands...

Her: Oh here's one honey!
Me: $825 bucks! Are you f'in kidding me?? How is that cheap?
Her: Am I not worth that much to you??
Me: SMH...

I just don't get it ladies.. 825 for a wedding band then she'll want a ring?? What a joke. Why can't a girl just be content on the love we have and not have to show it with some stupid piece of metal on her finger.

bah!

Sorry for the rant, but I hear where you are coming from OP just different stupid girl things to waste money on instead of dumb guy things.

freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2013, 06:54:52 PM »
Why is it that it seems like this site has more women on here having more money sense than their men?? I wish I had that with my girl! We just got into a bit of an argument last night because I was telling her that I'd like to propose to her but couldn't really afford a nice ring because I'm trying to max out 401K and such.

So I was telling her that I could buy her an inexpensive band then maybe by the time we get married I could buy a better ring.

She hops online and starts looking at "cheap" wedding bands...



My wedding band cost $200.

MoneyLifeandMore

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2013, 08:35:12 PM »
I know you were just looking to vent, but, if you don't mind some unsolicited advice, you both need to sit down and come up with what you want your goals to be in the future. Don't even bring up money, just life goals in general. Then eventually get to money so you're both on the same page with both your life and your money. I personally have had these discussions with my fiancee before we get married, but better now than never.

MissStache

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2013, 08:16:33 AM »

I just don't get it ladies.. 825 for a wedding band then she'll want a ring?? What a joke. Why can't a girl just be content on the love we have and not have to show it with some stupid piece of metal on her finger.


UM YES!  Many, many girls are perfectly content with this and don't give a crap about a ring.  I hope y'all have had a nice long sitdown to discuss you financial lives, because my experience is that someone who will say that about a ring will say that about a car, and a house, and a vacation, and a pair of boots, and a designer dog, and....

Not to highjack the thread...this just set off some of my OMG RUN AWAY alarms!

CorpRaider

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2013, 08:34:29 AM »
I get where you're coming from on the wedding band.  I paid up relatively big for the engagement ring because my fiance/wife was into that.  Everytime she gets a compliment on it I feel it is paying dividends for me in the form of spousal brownie points.  I am often in need of those.  Hey at least it won't rapidly depreciate so long as the supply of diamonds is artificially constrained...

olivia

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2013, 09:06:10 AM »

I just don't get it ladies.. 825 for a wedding band then she'll want a ring?? What a joke. Why can't a girl just be content on the love we have and not have to show it with some stupid piece of metal on her finger.


UM YES!  Many, many girls are perfectly content with this and don't give a crap about a ring.  I hope y'all have had a nice long sitdown to discuss you financial lives, because my experience is that someone who will say that about a ring will say that about a car, and a house, and a vacation, and a pair of boots, and a designer dog, and....

Not to highjack the thread...this just set off some of my OMG RUN AWAY alarms!

Okay this is ridiculous.  He should dump her because she wants an engagement ring?  Whether you like jewelry or not, our culture (yes, originally based on advertising) has conditioned both men and women to expect a diamond ring as a part of getting engaged.  Most people, even those who are frugal or not particularly into jewelry, expect an engagement ring and a wedding ring.

That's great that it's not something you or a lot of posters value, but if she values it that doesn't mean she's an idiot with no financial sense who should be dumped.  And if they guy I was dating thought I was a dumbshit for wanting an engagement ring, I wouldn't want to marry him.

And yes, I am happily married and appreciate the love and commitment of my husband. I also appreciate my diamond engagement ring and diamond wedding band, because I love jewelry.  ;)

EK

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2013, 09:43:56 AM »

Okay this is ridiculous.  He should dump her because she wants an engagement ring?  Whether you like jewelry or not, our culture (yes, originally based on advertising) has conditioned both men and women to expect a diamond ring as a part of getting engaged.  Most people, even those who are frugal or not particularly into jewelry, expect an engagement ring and a wedding ring.

That's great that it's not something you or a lot of posters value, but if she values it that doesn't mean she's an idiot with no financial sense who should be dumped.  And if they guy I was dating thought I was a dumbshit for wanting an engagement ring, I wouldn't want to marry him.

And yes, I am happily married and appreciate the love and commitment of my husband. I also appreciate my diamond engagement ring and diamond wedding band, because I love jewelry.  ;)

Agreed!!  A girl is a moron because she places value on something you don't??  My husband spends on some things that wouldn't be at the top of my list, and I spend on some things that wouldn't be the top of his. 

Plus I like my pretty jewelry.  :P 

MissStache

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2013, 09:44:11 AM »

I just don't get it ladies.. 825 for a wedding band then she'll want a ring?? What a joke. Why can't a girl just be content on the love we have and not have to show it with some stupid piece of metal on her finger.


UM YES!  Many, many girls are perfectly content with this and don't give a crap about a ring.  I hope y'all have had a nice long sitdown to discuss you financial lives, because my experience is that someone who will say that about a ring will say that about a car, and a house, and a vacation, and a pair of boots, and a designer dog, and....

Not to highjack the thread...this just set off some of my OMG RUN AWAY alarms!

Okay this is ridiculous.  He should dump her because she wants an engagement ring? 

Mea culpa.  You're right that I was a little harsh.  Honestly what bothered me wasn't that she wanted a ring (because 98% of people think that is very important), but that her response was "am I not worth that much to you?"  That was off putting.  I would have felt better if she had said "this is important to me and I would appreciate if we could have a conversation about how you are budgeting for this."

I will take of my judgy hat today!

fiveoclockshadow

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2013, 12:35:38 PM »
I'm sort of with MissStache on this one.  The ring and its cost is not the warning sign, it is the "am I not worth that much to you?" line that sets off alarm bells.  And those alarm bells are not necessarily directed at the one wanting the ring.  Just as likely as it being a sign someone might be a guilt-tripping spendthrift in the future it could also be a sign that someone is feeling undervalued and that communication isn't working the way it should.  That could be the fault of either party, but fault isn't the issue - getting it fixed is.

Weddings and engagements are stressful and reflect a huge change in people's lives.  Lots of worry about the future and "what am I getting into".  And that will continue for awhile after the big ceremony as well.  Sadly a large fraction of divorces are the result of disputes over money.  And sometimes that is just masking disputes over control (don't buy that!).  It might be time to lower the stress level, sit down and talk about future goals and their financial implications.  Recognize that someone might not realize the impact of expensive purchases and that someone else might not recognize that some expensive purchases are important to someone else who values them differently from just their net present value under 7% compounding.

NCoffey

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Re: Just need to vent...
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2013, 02:52:28 PM »
The Amish don't do rings. The men grow out their beards as a sign of marriage. There are a lot of other traditions for marriage besides spending a bunch of money. I think the ring I got my wife (she picked it) cost $80. It isn't supposed to be about the money spent, it is just supposed to be a symbol. It is a problem with our culture that they attach the sincerity or meaning of the marriage to the costs.