Author Topic: Just got a raise and I'm still angry  (Read 20465 times)

Counting_Down

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Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« on: August 21, 2017, 03:39:47 PM »
Hey MMM community. 
I need some anonymous perspective.  I work at a company I generally like, could picture sticking around to thru FI (a few years).  Part of the reason I like working here is the people, esp. given that my integral colleague and peer is someone I went to school with.  I think we compliment eachother in our roles really well. That person has worked at this company since graduating several years ago.  I graduated at the same time, and worked elsewhere, coming over as an experienced hire to the current company after a few years. Same years of experience, same job title, except I have experience working a different, more financial function prior to this current more operations based role.  This financial role is usually more highly compensated (so switching roles was a bit of a downgrade) and has benefited this ops team significantly as I have been able to clean up some of the stuff that was all fucked up in the reporting between the disciplines.

This colleague and I have both been grossly underpaid for our experience and industry (about 27% less than average for experience and title).  When I came over, we were paid about the same, but they got a raise and I didn't that first year (for being hired on in the latter part of the year) which created a 2K gap that has persisted over the last few raise cycles.  In addition, when I came on I was brought on as a level lower than them as a "trial-phase" for switching roles.  I was promoted to the same level as this person with glowing reviews this last bonus cycle after slightly more than a year, but this person has been at the higher level for a few years now and has been getting vocal about meeting the criteria for the next level.  Although we both received a healthy bump (13%, with that pesky 2k gap), they did not get promoted and both of us were not where we wanted to be comp wise.  So, we both agreed on a number that we felt would true us up with industry pay reports and metrics, and asked separately (with the thought of the number as a unified front).  And got shot down, although our mutual boss tempered the no: the raise request was approved to our highest levels of management in our group, and turned down by HR.  Our management on the team believes they have more control in standard bonus cycles, so the expectation was if we did our biz this year, they'd "true-us up" with promotions and raises in the 2018 cycle.

Today, I got an official letter with another 6.4% raise (meaning I'm up 20.9% from where I was in 3/17 - close but still on the low end of industry).  While still lower than I was hoping for, that was a real win...Until I found out that my colleague was promoted to the next level via the intranet page.  I feel fooled and foolish - same experience, same work, same job title.  And there goes the 2K gap between us (which I always hoped would smooth out if we got promoted at the same time).  The gap always bothered me a little because, well, I grew up on stories of needing to stay vigilant as a female in a technical field.  There's no clear path where this colleague is a better employee than I am - we both have our strengths, and by all accounts I'm the preferred contact for external groups.

And I knew something was up, because they didn't come to celebrate with me this morning, almost like they were hiding.  And given how this company played ball the year I was hired, I wouldn't be surprised if there's no raise for me in the 2018 cycle because I got an out-of-cycle one today.  My partner keeps telling me to be excited, but I can't help feel like I've just been slapped in the face.  I'm obviously second tier in someone's eyes.

What would you think/feel?

kenaces

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2017, 03:48:38 PM »
I could see how you feel upset but I think you would be better served by not worrying about being paid 2K less than your co-worker.  Instead I would just focus on how you can maximize your earn before FI, and instead consider that you might be able to make 10K+ more at another company if you are right about being grossly underpaid in your field.

CNM

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2017, 03:53:04 PM »
If you are getting paid undermarket or at the very low end of the market, I would be looking for work elsewhere.

Also, even though I understand that you have the same years of experience as your colleague, the decision between you two may have been based on company seniority (which is often the prevailing consideration unless there is a clearly better candidate).

letired

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2017, 03:57:57 PM »
I am also a lady-type person in a technical field, and also am somewhat constantly concerned about being underpaid.

First off, comparison is the thief of joy.

Comparison is obviously supremely useful, with regards to making sure you are maximizing your earning potential, but I find it helpful to set limits on how I use it.

Second, it might be useful to crunch some numbers. You say FI is a few years away, so what does that mean for the pay discrepancy? Are we talking a few months in reaching FI, or are we talking on the order of years?

Third, does the pay discrepancy mean you aren't meeting your goals?

I could see how you feel upset but I think you would be better served by not worrying about being paid 2K less than your co-worker.  Instead I would just focus on how you can maximize your earn before FI, and instead consider that you might be able to make 10K+ more at another company if you are right about being grossly underpaid in your field.

+1. Depending on the timeline, job availability, etc etc etc, I would start looking around, unless I had a reasonably cordial relationship with my management chain and could get reasonable answers to questions like: what does this current raise mean for the 2018 bonus cycle? What is my track to the desired promotion? What does my career over the next X years at this company look like?

Counting_Down

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 03:59:40 PM »
Thanks for your replies.  There's a vesting component here that complicates looking for work elsewhere for the time being.  And that will be the case with any other employer - stock compensation and waterfall vesting periods are always compromised by job hopping...  And starting a new job for ostensibly not enough time for even a sign on bonus to fully vest (3 years seems common for the industry) before FI - maybe a waste? 

Lay it on me.

4alpacas

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2017, 04:03:29 PM »
Thanks for your replies.  There's a vesting component here that complicates looking for work elsewhere for the time being.  And that will be the case with any other employer - stock compensation and waterfall vesting periods are always compromised by job hopping...  And starting a new job for ostensibly not enough time for even a sign on bonus to fully vest (3 years seems common for the industry) before FI - maybe a waste? 

Lay it on me.
Get another job to strengthen your bargaining power at your current position. 

mm1970

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2017, 04:58:08 PM »
If you are getting paid undermarket or at the very low end of the market, I would be looking for work elsewhere.

Also, even though I understand that you have the same years of experience as your colleague, the decision between you two may have been based on company seniority (which is often the prevailing consideration unless there is a clearly better candidate).

This is a good point.

I also agree with the idea that I wouldn't necessarily sweat the $2k if honestly the promotion is seniority at the company in the role (that's rare, in my experience.  Generally new people get paid more).  If you are both performing well, especially.

If you do not want to leave, then I would continue to push each year.  Don't worry too much about not getting a raise or bonus next year because of the off-cycle one this year.  Assume you will, prep for it.  Ask your management chain what is required to get it.  Be specific.

One caveat - how many years has it been, and this other coworker, male?  To be honest, as a woman in a technical field, it really super sucks getting paid less than a man doing the same job.  I am super sensitive about it.  I hate it. 

bridget

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2017, 05:18:37 PM »
Thanks for your replies.  There's a vesting component here that complicates looking for work elsewhere for the time being.  And that will be the case with any other employer - stock compensation and waterfall vesting periods are always compromised by job hopping...  And starting a new job for ostensibly not enough time for even a sign on bonus to fully vest (3 years seems common for the industry) before FI - maybe a waste? 

Lay it on me.

How much is the unvested stock compensation/sign on bonus worth (and how much do you anticipate it being worth when it vests)?  Sometimes people don't do the math on this.  They feel like they can't leave "their" money behind, even though they are forgoing even more potential money to stay. 

Just hypothetically, if the unvested portion is worth $20k and it will fully vest in 3 years, but you can get another job with $10k more per year in salary, it's an objectively better idea to leave the unvested compensation behind and jump ship.  In those three years, you would make $30k more in exchange for leaving the $20k behind, and that $30k is salary you can invest in an index fund, not subject to the whims of your company's valuation at any given moment (and you'd also presumably start vesting at the new place as well, making it an even better deal).

affordablehousing

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2017, 07:08:03 PM »
This sounds really frustrating, but trying to see it through management's eyes, why would they give you a raise? They strung you along with hints that an entirely discretionary bonus would make you feel better, and in process they got several more months of work out of you without paying you more. Showing them an offer that tells them what they need to do to keep you is your best leverage. And the glowing reviews you've received and appreciated service to outside contacts your best ticket to get that competing offer. Have them recognize the value you'd be forgoing in options and have the competing company build that into their offer.

If FIRE is only a couple years away, and the jealousy of your friend's salary is enough to constantly irk you, I would think it would be worth it to jump ship the last couple years of your career.

KBecks

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2017, 05:46:42 AM »
Would you consider asking for more money from your employer rather than waiting for them to hand out raises and promotions?  If you negotiate, then you might get what you want.    If you want $2k more right now, why not ask for that?    Talk to them about what you want, and/or, start looking. 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 05:50:02 AM by KBecks »

kjulez_83

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2017, 06:53:24 AM »
I had a similar situation to this recently (a new person joined our team from a different department that I know was on more money) and after I just got the standard increase I raised the issue with my boss. He said that my colleague came from a different department and how she came to be on her rate was a separate matter. To which I said but we do the same role, how is that fair and he said you don't do the same role you just have the same title to which I replied so she must perform more important and valued work than I do? (We have a pretty good relationship and the new person doesn't add as much value as I do - at least not yet as she still learning a lot of aspects of the role - which i am showing her!). He then kind of realised it was unfair and I said all I'm asking is that you review it again in terms of the value I add to the team/business and in terms of fairness (the salary is at the higher end of market rate).

It does feel totally shit knowing that the manager would have looked at a spreadsheet with our names side by side and just went yeah give the CPI increase to both, seeing the gap in our salaries. But at the end of the day if you accept lower pay that's all they'll give you because the boss is trying to make budget and look better themselves and is rarely going to say wow this is unfair, have an extra $10K this year!

In my situation my boss came back and gave me what I asked for. So I agree that you need to just ask, there's not much to lose by having the conversation, and having some good achievements to back your position up.

caracarn

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2017, 07:24:37 AM »
I may likely be the unpopular voice in this conversation.

I do see that someone said comparison is the enemy of joy.  I've never found that getting hung up on these things is ever helpful.  People like to think that their anger and resentment are not visible in their work, but when I manage people I can very clearly see the ones who feel they are not getting what they deserve.  I think this comparison problem extends to looking at salary sites as well.  Most of these are self reported and tend to be on the high side.  So I have always focused on living the life I'd like on what I get paid, and as long as things are not too far off kilter to just be happy where I am.  A 6.4% raise is nothing to sneeze at when raises are normally in the 2-3% range for years.  You cannot sustain a 6.4% increase range over a long career.  I think the FIRE push may be causing the aggressive feelings of being left behind, and so I do feel I may not be able to totally relate as this is just not my mindset.  I've got a lot of kids and a lot of college ahead for all of them so my likelihood of RE is pretty low, so it is not really a target.  It's kind of like a "that would be cool" if I was able to step away 3-5 years early but I've spent nearly 50 years of my life assuming I'd work until retirement age because I want to max out my SS since it may pay less. 

So I would suggest focusing on if the pay you are getting is really that poor.  If it is, then it seems you've made clear the only way to do anything about it is to prove yourself right and find this new pay rate somewhere else.  If you can't then maybe it will show you that the surveys are in fact over inflated or something else is missing in how you present to other employers because they hire other candidates and pay them the rate you wanted.  Then you need to figure out how to fill that gap.  This is a tough topic for me because it is so foreign to my mindset.  I've rarely felt like I was getting screwed even though I knew other people (not in the same job but similar levels in the organization) were getting a lot more money than me.  I was still happy with the decent salary I was making.  Perhaps maybe the desire to FIRE in some of us also drive up the greed monster and that can be dangerous.  I have also been blessed by having what I would say is an above average (as compared to the typical household income)  for a long portion of my career, so once I crossed that threshold I felt honored to be able to command that level of compensation and just never felt the heavy desire for more.  I would suggest you ask yourself are you bothered by the stigma of a female in a technical field because inside YOU are really bothered, or is it because of the societal stigma that you SHOULD be bothered?  At times we get sucked into embracing a cause not because we care about it but because we feel "wrong" for not caring about it.  When I looked for a job recently and had no problem taking a pay cut because not relocating was more important, I had several friends who did not get it.  "Why would you ever take less?" was their answer.  I simply replied that while that was a driver for them, it was not for me.  Taking less, was still much more than I had made 15 years ago when what I made was enough.  So once I got past enough, the desire for more really died.

GuitarStv

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2017, 07:33:45 AM »
Is your colleague a dude?  If so, that's probably why you're making less.  If this is the case, leave the company.  You will never change something that is set in the minds of higher ups who make the decisions on pay, and there are an awful lot of companies that just don't pay women as much (I've worked for several).

caracarn

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2017, 07:53:11 AM »
Is your colleague a dude?  If so, that's probably why you're making less.  If this is the case, leave the company.  You will never change something that is set in the minds of higher ups who make the decisions on pay, and there are an awful lot of companies that just don't pay women as much (I've worked for several).
But will you then spend a lot of time trying to find that company that does not?  This is a bigger trend than a handful of companies.  It's not a good trend, but I'm not sure it can easily be remedied by just hopping companies.  I think the poster inferred that it was a dude by including the reasoning being that she was female in a technical field. 

AliEli

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2017, 08:34:33 AM »
That really sucks, I think you have every reason to be very angry. I can't blame you for looking at the difference in your wages - it is reflective of what your boss and the company think of you and how they value your time and expertise.

I can't offer you any advice as I work in a female-dominated industry with set wages... i think part of the attraction was the uniformity of conditions and not having to do wages negotiations myself. I'd be really upset if I was in the situation you described ☹️

GuitarStv

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 10:06:31 AM »
Is your colleague a dude?  If so, that's probably why you're making less.  If this is the case, leave the company.  You will never change something that is set in the minds of higher ups who make the decisions on pay, and there are an awful lot of companies that just don't pay women as much (I've worked for several).
But will you then spend a lot of time trying to find that company that does not?  This is a bigger trend than a handful of companies.  It's not a good trend, but I'm not sure it can easily be remedied by just hopping companies.  I think the poster inferred that it was a dude by including the reasoning being that she was female in a technical field.

I work in a technical field.  There are a lot of companies (big and small) that do not promote women the same way as men.  There do exist fair companies out there though (I'm at one right now), and I think that if this sort of thing is really bothering you it's worth putting in the effort to search for a better place to work.  You will never, ever change the corporate culture of a place.

MsSindy

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2017, 10:27:30 AM »
You're entitled to feel however you want about it; feelings are what they are.

The company has showed their hands, now you have to be practical in how you want to deal with it.  You either stay or leave.

Leave - give up vesting, but find a company who pays you @ market and has a culture that is more female-friendly
Stay - stop being angry and accept the facts

"But it's not fair!!"   Nope, it's sure not.  But you have to be practical about things, and continuing to huff and puff doesn't change the facts.  Only you can decide if you're "angry enough" to leave, or if this is something you can learn to let go of for the sake of FIRE in a few years.

Counting_Down

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2017, 10:37:10 AM »
Thank you all for your replies.  I'll follow up with some direct responses.  In the meantime, a significant clarification:

Because of the promotion of my colleague, the gap is now MUCH GREATER than 2K.  I don't know what the exact figure is.  But the 2k gap was before, as the same level/same experience/same title.  Now, we are different levels, and I am assuming an associated pay raise was very different for the two us.

Thanks.

Counting_Down

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2017, 11:41:23 AM »
Again, thanks everyone.
 
I want to be clear, I am not trying to claim unabashedly that this is DEFINITELY a gender thing.  I don’t know. But that persistent and pesky pay gap and now an additional promotion…it’s an easy thing to call out.  And something that has been statistically identified by others across industries.  Who knows what the issue is in this case.  Implicit bias, as simple as I can’t banter about my wife and kids (something I have to give up or defer to be considered an equal at this stage of my career) makes me less relatable, less easy to talk to, potentially viewed in any myriad of ways as…different.  And we all know how society (corporations = micro societies) deals with different.  FWIW, I do appreciate hearing from other technical women that you also are concerned with pay, makes me feel a little better to not be alone. Enough on that.

The real issue here for me, as it has always been, is feeling valued…equally.  To all of you who said something to the effect of, “well, they showed their cards” – you’re right, and that’s what is so disheartening.  I have yet to receive any critical feedback, anything actionable, all commentary has been positive.  Yet this action shows that for some reason they value my colleague more than me.  That sucks.  Enough about feelings.

As for what to do next.
Third, does the pay discrepancy mean you aren't meeting your goals?
Goals are a little more existential for me, and TBH I’m not sure how to answer you yet as “this” all factors into my thinging.  Financially no, partner and I will be OMY-ing it for a little so this has no impact on timeline.  I would like to work at a place I like where I feel valued, thru FI. 

Instead I would just focus on how you can maximize your earn before FI, and instead consider that you might be able to make 10K+ more at another company if you are right about being grossly underpaid in your field.
Good points. Entering a new cutthroat fish tank, especially after FI has no appeal to me so I’d need to be very choosy.  However, I am not afraid to leave.
+1. Depending on the timeline, job availability, etc etc etc, I would start looking around, unless I had a reasonably cordial relationship with my management chain and could get reasonable answers to questions like: what does this current raise mean for the 2018 bonus cycle? What is my track to the desired promotion? What does my career over the next X years at this company look like?
I do have a cordial relationship with my entire team, and I guess that is why I am so surprised.  I will be asking these questions and will follow up.  I have always been warned about the importance of the delivery – seeming forthright, not whiney, etc, etc.  Suggestions appreciated.

How much is the unvested stock compensation/sign on bonus worth (and how much do you anticipate it being worth when it vests)?  Sometimes people don't do the math on this.  They feel like they can't leave "their" money behind, even though they are forgoing even more potential money to stay. 
 
It’s a hefty 401k match that I’m focused on, my last two years were matched at 12% of salary.  I’ll fully vest in another year or so.  I’m not as concerned about stock, but by the time I’m fully vested in 401k I’ll be looking at leaving ~70K on the table total (complicated by layering waterfall vesting).   Noted that the math provides the indisputable answer…to be calculated at the time of any competing offers for direct comparison.

If you are getting paid undermarket or at the very low end of the market, I would be looking for work elsewhere.
Also, even though I understand that you have the same years of experience as your colleague, the decision between you two may have been based on company seniority (which is often the prevailing consideration unless there is a clearly better candidate).
This is a good point.
I also agree with the idea that I wouldn't necessarily sweat the $2k if honestly the promotion is seniority at the company in the role (that's rare, in my experience.  Generally new people get paid more).  If you are both performing well, especially.
If you do not want to leave, then I would continue to push each year.  Don't worry too much about not getting a raise or bonus next year because of the off-cycle one this year.  Assume you will, prep for it.  Ask your management chain what is required to get it.  Be specific.
One caveat - how many years has it been, and this other coworker, male?  To be honest, as a woman in a technical field, it really super sucks getting paid less than a man doing the same job.  I am super sensitive about it.  I hate it. 
All very valid points, thank you.  Appreciate your commentary for expectations for 2018 cycle.  To be clear, 2k gap was before colleague’s promotion, I imagine it is much more significant now.

So I agree that you need to just ask, there's not much to lose by having the conversation, and having some good achievements to back your position up.
Would you consider asking for more money from your employer rather than waiting for them to hand out raises and promotions?  If you negotiate, then you might get what you want.    If you want $2k more right now, why not ask for that?    Talk to them about what you want, and/or, start looking. 
Chronologically: performance review and 13% bonus in 3/17.  Followed up next day saying “Thank you for the raise yesterday.  My target is X, salary comp and industry metrics back this up – can provide you sources”.  Was told “No” in 4/17 with promise of promotion in 3/18.  This 6.4% raise yesterday was in follow up to 3/17 request, after “HR took another look at their metrics”.  That would have been close to good enough.  My issue is that they then created another source of inequity directly with a colleague in promoting only one of us.  I have already asked.  Managers can pitch in regarding how they’d like to hear the request, but I imagine they do not love an employee who keeps pushing after they feel they have given them what they asked for, aka “complaining”. I am cognizant of not sounding like a broken record.  The questions LeTired suggested earlier are more along the lines of the next steps in my opinion.

This:
Is your colleague a dude?  If so, that's probably why you're making less.  If this is the case, leave the company.  You will never change something that is set in the minds of higher ups who make the decisions on pay, and there are an awful lot of companies that just don't pay women as much (I've worked for several).
But will you then spend a lot of time trying to find that company that does not?  This is a bigger trend than a handful of companies.  It's not a good trend, but I'm not sure it can easily be remedied by just hopping companies.  I think the poster inferred that it was a dude by including the reasoning being that she was female in a technical field.

I touched on this above a bit.  Appreciate your comments.  My industry is pretty homogenous in types of technical staff.  I will not escape this problem elsewhere, and by all accounts, this is somewhat my first encounter (albeit subtle and prolonged) with anything I could construe as this issue at my current employer.  It is a big issue, but one I knew I would have to contend with for choosing my career. I am one of ~2 technical women at my current employer – we are on different teams and she’s a lot more overt about it, more SJW.  She’s also as far as I understand not being underpaid. My graduating class was less than 10% female, and I suspect many have married or birthed out of industry.  So, I’m not shocked… but yet I still am.  It’s a thing I need to contend with, regardless. I am not a social justice warrior, and do believe people need to merit as individuals without using a platform or trope.  Yet here I am questioning why my merit is not being seen equally.  Ugh. FWIW, I have worked on a more female heavy team elsewhere and that was the reason for my leaving.  Feelings get in the way of getting work done.  The irony of this situation and my feelings is not lost on me.

I think the next step is to try and get some honest answers from my boss.  How does one imply that there is obviously a perceived performance/valuable difference between me and my coworker?  Am I best to just focus on me and my promotion to the next level and not bring up comparison (which isn’t even accurate anymore as we no longer have the same levels)?  But, somehow I do want to address the same pay/same experience/same job/different gender thing with my boss – he has young daughters – if I’m going to break through to anyone…?  I’m sure there are things at play that I don’t know – like maybe it was a HR issue to promote someone twice within the year (as would apply to me and not the coworker for reasons listed initially)?

FireHiker

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2017, 11:52:12 AM »
As a female engineer married to a male engineer (same degree from same university, with the same employer) I feel your pain. I never realized how much I was shorted on the pay front until I had the direct knowledge in the form of knowing my husband's pay. It is very disheartening. To my current supervisor's credit (my husband and I have not been within the same management chain for several years now), she has acknowledged this and is doing what she can to rectify. It is still very painful to know I still only make 78% of what my husband does, with the same qualifications, at the same company.

caracarn

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2017, 12:23:42 PM »
As a female engineer married to a male engineer (same degree from same university, with the same employer) I feel your pain. I never realized how much I was shorted on the pay front until I had the direct knowledge in the form of knowing my husband's pay. It is very disheartening. To my current supervisor's credit (my husband and I have not been within the same management chain for several years now), she has acknowledged this and is doing what she can to rectify. It is still very painful to know I still only make 78% of what my husband does, with the same qualifications, at the same company.
This is a very interesting point, as it gives a clearer picture of removing a lot of the typical variables.  Obviously there is still individual performance that could vary and what each supervisor each of you valued and if their comp pools were different in what they could give out because one team was given a larger pool to work with than other (which happens quite a bit in my experience).

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2017, 12:43:49 PM »
I think I would hint at the possible gender bias here and that you are aware of it and that it is illegal.

As a male engineer, I am very aware of this problem myself. I was referring a female classmate graduating a couple semesters after me, and she received a much lower initial offer than myself and another male classmate had received coming out of school. Thankfully we told her to ask for X and they gave it to her, but still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Counting_Down

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2017, 01:11:10 PM »
I think I would hint at the possible gender bias here and that you are aware of it and that it is illegal.

As a male engineer, I am very aware of this problem myself. I was referring a female classmate graduating a couple semesters after me, and she received a much lower initial offer than myself and another male classmate had received coming out of school. Thankfully we told her to ask for X and they gave it to her, but still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Good for you.  Its people like you that make things change.  That is part of the reason I have always really liked working with this particular colleague.  He gets it (or I thought so) and we've had eachothers back.  He even called out a third party vendor in a meeting once for not addressing me.  He knows about the 2k and has similarly called it BS.  But, he hasn't spoken to me since his promotion...so something is up.

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2017, 01:23:54 PM »
As a female engineer married to a male engineer (same degree from same university, with the same employer) I feel your pain. I never realized how much I was shorted on the pay front until I had the direct knowledge in the form of knowing my husband's pay. It is very disheartening. To my current supervisor's credit (my husband and I have not been within the same management chain for several years now), she has acknowledged this and is doing what she can to rectify. It is still very painful to know I still only make 78% of what my husband does, with the same qualifications, at the same company.

Yes, it is disheartening.  I've done the math, and I'm also at 78%  (well, 77.8%).  It blows.

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I am not trying to claim unabashedly that this is DEFINITELY a gender thing.  I don’t know. But that persistent and pesky pay gap and now an additional promotion…it’s an easy thing to call out.  And something that has been statistically identified by others across industries.  Who knows what the issue is in this case.  Implicit bias, as simple as I can’t banter about my wife and kids (something I have to give up or defer to be considered an equal at this stage of my career) makes me less relatable, less easy to talk to, potentially viewed in any myriad of ways as…different.

Yes, it's hard to say *for sure*, but there is a lot of truth to the gender gap.

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I do have a cordial relationship with my entire team, and I guess that is why I am so surprised.  I will be asking these questions and will follow up.  I have always been warned about the importance of the delivery – seeming forthright, not whiney, etc, etc.  Suggestions appreciated.

The tricky thing is, I don't think there's a right answer on the delivery.  For what it's worth, I've been *very* good at helping people get raises...men.  When my husband got his first raise at a company, I'd sent him in there with my own research on what he should be paid in his industry and level of experience.  His boss, shocked at the discussion said "you can go somewhere else".  Which lasted, honestly, until the next day, when his raise was doubled.

At my previous company, I was having a convo with two other female engineers about promotions and raises.  To be honest, it was hard there because raises were at a set % for the group (so you had to rob Peter to pay Paula, so to speak), and it was a small group.  It was right before our annual reviews, and I just said "well, what you really need to do is ask your boss "what can I do to be better?"  For example: if you are an Engineer II, read the job description and the one for Engineer III.  Analyze what you are currently doing.  Ask your boss specifically what additional responsibility and projects you need to take on to get that promotion?  The two women I was speaking with BOTH said "well, that doesn't work.  They only tell you that this job is what it is, and there's no room for promotion, sorry."  Unbeknownst to me, the guy sitting next to them overheard the whole convo, did just that.  His boss said "hey, you are right, you are already doing all of this".  Promoted him and gave him a big raise.

So.  Unfortunately, what works for men often doesn't work for women.  Same words, same tone, doesn't come across the same way.  It is incredibly frustrating.  When I was a manager I worked REALLY HARD to make sure that my engineers were paid fairly.  I had one or two bosses be the same way.  But I've had other bosses who just shrugged and figured I should be plenty happy because I make "enough".  Well FU dude - jerkoff down the next cubicle who almost got fired twice makes 30% more than I do.

The other issue is that most companies that I've worked for, and my husband's company, find themselves offering market rate to new people, otherwise they cannot hire them. But they have no reasonable mechanism in place for giving raises to the existing people so that they are fairly paid.  Which is why most people say "change jobs", because that's where you get the big bumps.

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I touched on this above a bit.  Appreciate your comments.  My industry is pretty homogenous in types of technical staff.  I will not escape this problem elsewhere, and by all accounts, this is somewhat my first encounter (albeit subtle and prolonged) with anything I could construe as this issue at my current employer.  It is a big issue, but one I knew I would have to contend with for choosing my career. I am one of ~2 technical women at my current employer – we are on different teams and she’s a lot more overt about it, more SJW.  She’s also as far as I understand not being underpaid. My graduating class was less than 10% female, and I suspect many have married or birthed out of industry.  So, I’m not shocked… but yet I still am.  It’s a thing I need to contend with, regardless. I am not a social justice warrior, and do believe people need to merit as individuals without using a platform or trope.  Yet here I am questioning why my merit is not being seen equally.  Ugh. FWIW, I have worked on a more female heavy team elsewhere and that was the reason for my leaving.  Feelings get in the way of getting work done.  The irony of this situation and my feelings is not lost on me.

Yes, it does get exhausting when you are one of the only women on a team.  You won't escape the problem elsewhere, but changing jobs can keep you at market rate.  Another comment: most women I know who have left engineering / tech haven't so much "married or birthed out of the industry", as much as - they all, like me, got weary of the inequities.  When you marry or have children, your priorities change (my husband's priorities have changed just as much as mine).  But most importantly, you get tired of the utter bullshit - often tech is antagonistic to women, and the pay gap sucks rocks.  (I'm 47.  My pay gap is approximately $32,000 a year.  Six years ago it was probably only $15,000-20,000.)

bognish

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2017, 01:40:18 PM »
As a manager I would suggest focusing your next conversations with your boss on setting specific measurable goals or skills to develop so that you will be eligible for the next promotion, raise and hitting bonus. When looking at the 2 of you why did they choose the other employee over you and how can you ensure that you have those skills when it is time for the next promotion.  If they cannot identify specific items then it may be time to look elsewhere.

If both of you are being paid below industry standards I would not get too hung up on being paid less that the other employee. Getting paid the same as someone else under compensated should not make you happy. Either there are non-salary benefits to this employer that other places do not offer, your skills are below industry standards, or your employer is hoping you are too lazy to move.

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2017, 01:55:31 PM »
Chronologically: performance review and 13% bonus in 3/17.  Followed up next day saying “Thank you for the raise yesterday.  My target is X, salary comp and industry metrics back this up – can provide you sources”.  Was told “No” in 4/17 with promise of promotion in 3/18.  This 6.4% raise yesterday was in follow up to 3/17 request, after “HR took another look at their metrics”.  That would have been close to good enough.  My issue is that they then created another source of inequity directly with a colleague in promoting only one of us.  I have already asked.  Managers can pitch in regarding how they’d like to hear the request, but I imagine they do not love an employee who keeps pushing after they feel they have given them what they asked for, aka “complaining”. I am cognizant of not sounding like a broken record. 

There's probably not much you can do at this point other than accept it as is or look for another job.  You have already had back and forth about your compensation and they have moved significantly.  If you work at a good company, they will let you go when you get another job.  If you get a significant raise and they try to match,  after they had a chance to directly consider what you are worth, then that means you will always need another offer to have leverage with them. 

The other thing I'd point out is that there is probably nothing you can do with respect to the gender thing.  There's probably a 99% chance that whoever made the promotion decision honestly thinks gender had nothing to do with it.  If you work at a small company, he may not be able to give you a good reason as to why your colleague was chosen over you for promotion.  If you work at a large company (at least in the U.S.) there's a pretty decent chance that a man wouldn't be selected over a woman, especially for a technical position, without the why having to be formulated, even if the why is fairly subjective.  But regardless, it's extremely unlikely in my experience that if you do anything to hint that gender discrimination might be at play that the person doing the selection will consider that some sort of subconscious gender discrimination guided the selection.   


GuitarStv

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2017, 02:01:54 PM »
As a female engineer married to a male engineer (same degree from same university, with the same employer) I feel your pain. I never realized how much I was shorted on the pay front until I had the direct knowledge in the form of knowing my husband's pay. It is very disheartening. To my current supervisor's credit (my husband and I have not been within the same management chain for several years now), she has acknowledged this and is doing what she can to rectify. It is still very painful to know I still only make 78% of what my husband does, with the same qualifications, at the same company.

This is a very interesting point, as it gives a clearer picture of removing a lot of the typical variables.  Obviously there is still individual performance that could vary and what each supervisor each of you valued and if their comp pools were different in what they could give out because one team was given a larger pool to work with than other (which happens quite a bit in my experience).

Don't discount the benefit of being a dude.

I'm a computer engineer.  I met my wife in school.  We worked at the same company right after school for about four years.  After it went under in 2008 we ended up working for the same new employer for eight years.  After 12 years of working at the same companies, where I never got performance reviews that were as good as my wife did, doing the same thing, with the same degree, effectively the same job description and title . . . I was making about 12 grand a year more.  So yeah, having a wiener seems to have really paid off for me personally.


FWIW, I also got laid off last year and she didn't.  Maybe I was making too much?  :P

caracarn

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2017, 02:06:40 PM »
I think I would hint at the possible gender bias here and that you are aware of it and that it is illegal.

I find that if you are needing to have that conversation the battle has already been so far lost you're better off finding another battlefield (job).  As others have said, you're not going to change a company culture.  Look at Fox News, Uber all the others hitting the news.  They are POSSIBLY changing because they are now under legal pressure because people did file suits, but an internal employee (or 100) telling them that it is gender bias is not going to matter.  If the needle was going to move with internal conversation it would have done so before you have to start threatening your management.

ABC123

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2017, 02:15:15 PM »
Could you sit down with your boss and ask what kinds of things you can work on to improve your future chances for a promotion?  Maybe somehow hint towards the promotion going to the man rather than the woman, without outright saying it.  Make it sound like you really want to help the company.

FireHiker

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2017, 02:17:54 PM »
As a female engineer married to a male engineer (same degree from same university, with the same employer) I feel your pain. I never realized how much I was shorted on the pay front until I had the direct knowledge in the form of knowing my husband's pay. It is very disheartening. To my current supervisor's credit (my husband and I have not been within the same management chain for several years now), she has acknowledged this and is doing what she can to rectify. It is still very painful to know I still only make 78% of what my husband does, with the same qualifications, at the same company.

This is a very interesting point, as it gives a clearer picture of removing a lot of the typical variables.  Obviously there is still individual performance that could vary and what each supervisor each of you valued and if their comp pools were different in what they could give out because one team was given a larger pool to work with than other (which happens quite a bit in my experience).

Don't discount the benefit of being a dude.

I'm a computer engineer.  I met my wife in school.  We worked at the same company right after school for about four years.  After it went under in 2008 we ended up working for the same new employer for eight years.  After 12 years of working at the same companies, where I never got performance reviews that were as good as my wife did, doing the same thing, with the same degree, effectively the same job description and title . . . I was making about 12 grand a year more.  So yeah, having a wiener seems to have really paid off for me personally.


FWIW, I also got laid off last year and she didn't.  Maybe I was making too much?  :P

The disparity between myself and my husband actually used to be even worse when we technically had the same job. There was very much a "good old boys" culture when I started here, and I was at a big disadvantage. Then, when I went out on maternity leave twice, I was out both times during raise cycle and was just skipped entirely. When a  male co-worker was out for medical reasons during raise cycle (a year after my second maternity leave), they made it up for him after the fact but not for me. Before I changed divisions (and thus management chain) there were some very traditional folks who set the raises who clearly viewed my income as being "supplemental" in our family (not my words...I was told this by someone else involved in the process). I really appreciate that my current management is trying to fix this, but there were 11 years of disparity to overcome before I changed roles. We are both perceived as "high performers" with consistently strong reviews that are pretty comparable, although there is not an actual correlation between reviews and raises anymore here (strange, right??).

On the plus side, the only gender bias I've ever felt in the workforce has entirely been monetary. I have never had a sense of being treated differently or not respected, aside from the paycheck. I have known other female engineers 15+ years older than I am who faced much more blatant and ugly discrimination, so there has been improvement. But, that doesn't make it acceptable to pay someone differently solely on the basis of their gender.

Zamboni

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2017, 02:22:15 PM »
Unfortunately, what is happening to you is really, really common. Read the book "Ask for It" by Babcock and Laschever and really take it to heart. They are screwing you out of your retirement, and they are screwing your children (or future children) out of things they need.

Don't worry too much about your direct colleague, although it's good that you have that frame of reference . . . think of it as a plus that you have his information because it PROVES the company could be paying you more. If you want to bring it up, one key phrase that can sometimes get higher ups moving on bigger raises without threatening a lawsuit is to simply repeatedly express polite but persistent concerns about "equity issues" based upon your conversations with "several" male colleagues.

Rather than gnashing your teeth, focus instead on doing market research. Find out what you are worth on the market and ask for it at your current company in a series of conversations. Don't let it drop. Don't let "no" or "ask again later" stop you from bringing up again over and over. Pester them incessantly but politely. Say you are looking for a win-win. In the mean time, go on the market and get some other offers as well (higher offers, as you will be negotiating with your new industry knowledge to back you up.)

Good luck!

Counting_Down

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2017, 04:27:59 PM »
Another comment: most women I know who have left engineering / tech haven't so much "married or birthed out of the industry", as much as - they all, like me, got weary of the inequities.  When you marry or have children, your priorities change (my husband's priorities have changed just as much as mine).  But most importantly, you get tired of the utter bullshit - often tech is antagonistic to women, and the pay gap sucks rocks.  (I'm 47.  My pay gap is approximately $32,000 a year.  Six years ago it was probably only $15,000-20,000.)
Fair enough.  I was a little blase on this one. A few years ago, maybe I wouldn't have recognized the pervasiveness of the inequities, but I too am getting weary of it (even outside of this specific topic).  But I will not hide my ire for women (girls really) who suffered the degree to immediately or [edit] in less than [/edit] 5yrs become a SAHM or SAHW.  I think it does a disservice to those of us who stay, rightfully, about whether or not we can be "counted on" to stick around.

As a manager I would suggest focusing your next conversations with your boss on setting specific measurable goals or skills to develop so that you will be eligible for the next promotion, raise and hitting bonus. When looking at the 2 of you why did they choose the other employee over you and how can you ensure that you have those skills when it is time for the next promotion.  If they cannot identify specific items then it may be time to look elsewhere.

If both of you are being paid below industry standards I would not get too hung up on being paid less that the other employee. Getting paid the same as someone else under compensated should not make you happy. Either there are non-salary benefits to this employer that other places do not offer, your skills are below industry standards, or your employer is hoping you are too lazy to move.
Thank you, and fair enough. Can confidently answer that both my and the colleague's skills are significantly above industry standards.  Part of the issue is that I don't think the company realizes how good they have it.

The other thing I'd point out is that there is probably nothing you can do with respect to the gender thing.  There's probably a 99% chance that whoever made the promotion decision honestly thinks gender had nothing to do with it.  If you work at a small company, he may not be able to give you a good reason as to why your colleague was chosen over you for promotion.  If you work at a large company (at least in the U.S.) there's a pretty decent chance that a man wouldn't be selected over a woman, especially for a technical position, without the why having to be formulated, even if the why is fairly subjective.  But regardless, it's extremely unlikely in my experience that if you do anything to hint that gender discrimination might be at play that the person doing the selection will consider that some sort of subconscious gender discrimination guided the selection.   
Also fair enough.  My partner, god love him, and someone WHO KNOWS BETTER, balked at the assertion initially as well.  Got defensive. Told me all the reasons why they probably did think my colleague was a better engineer.  The look on his face when he realized what he was saying was incredible.

Before I changed divisions (and thus management chain) there were some very traditional folks who set the raises who clearly viewed my income as being "supplemental" in our family (not my words...I was told this by someone else involved in the process).
 
This is unbelievable.  I've never heard or thought about that before. My partner is same industry, different company.  We've heard all the DINK comments, but OH MY LORD if someone was thinking I was doing this for fun.  You know what I'd do for FUN?!? NOT SUFFER THIS CRAP.

Don't discount the benefit of being a dude.
Trust me I don't. Not turning this into a women's right's vs. men's rights thing, either.  Different issues, different sacrifices on both sides.  But man...

Unfortunately, what is happening to you is really, really common. Read the book "Ask for It" by Babcock and Laschever and really take it to heart. They are screwing you out of your retirement, and they are screwing your children (or future children) out of things they need.

Don't worry too much about your direct colleague, although it's good that you have that frame of reference . . . think of it as a plus that you have his information because it PROVES the company could be paying you more. If you want to bring it up, one key phrase that can sometimes get higher ups moving on bigger raises without threatening a lawsuit is to simply repeatedly express polite but persistent concerns about "equity issues" based upon your conversations with "several" male colleagues.

Rather than gnashing your teeth, focus instead on doing market research. Find out what you are worth on the market and ask for it at your current company in a series of conversations. Don't let it drop. Don't let "no" or "ask again later" stop you from bringing up again over and over. Pester them incessantly but politely. Say you are looking for a win-win. In the mean time, go on the market and get some other offers as well (higher offers, as you will be negotiating with your new industry knowledge to back you up.)

Good luck!
Thank you. I have read the book.  I have done the research, and the asking.  I appreciate the reminder to keep trying.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 01:15:41 PM by Counting_Down »

FINate

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2017, 04:55:48 PM »
But I will not hide my ire for women (girls really) who suffered the degree to immediately or >5yrs become a SAHM or SAHW.  I think it does a disservice to those of us who stay, rightfully, about whether or not we can be "counted on" to stick around.

Wait, what? We're free to make our own decisions and prioritize life based on our situation and values. What's it to you if a mom (or dad for that matter) decides to stay home? My wife decided to become a SAHM when our first came along, and becoming a SAHD was a big part of my motivation to follow her a few years later. The blame here belongs on the way stay at home parents are stigmatized, rather than the parent making a decision they feel is right for their family.

EDIT: Also, isn't it misogynistic to refer to adult women as "girls"?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:05:34 PM by FINate »

AliEli

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2017, 06:22:37 PM »
It doesn't help your cause to be judgemental and adopt a harsh attitude towards parents. Why are you tethering yourself to such a out-dated belief that parenting and excellent work don't go together for women?  You line of argument is perverse and unhelpful to your own interests in the long run. Work is not life, and there should be room to be both a parent and employee in any organisation. If women leave their employment, in my experience it's usually bc there is unreasonable expectations on the part of the employer.

KBecks

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2017, 07:20:46 PM »
But I will not hide my ire for women (girls really) who suffered the degree to immediately or >5yrs become a SAHM or SAHW.  I think it does a disservice to those of us who stay, rightfully, about whether or not we can be "counted on" to stick around.

Well, good luck out there, then.

notmyhand

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2017, 07:27:49 PM »
Just an anecdotal story -
I was interviewing people for some contract work this week.  I spoke to 20-30 people.  I had X to pay but I was not volunteering that, instead I asked them for their rates.  About 50% of the men I spoke with asked for X, which is about market pay, and about 50% asked for more than X.  Every single woman (about 30% of the pool) asked for less than X.  Most of the woman had more experience than most of the men. 

Smokystache

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2017, 08:00:23 PM »
.... That person has worked at this company since graduating several years ago.  I graduated at the same time, and worked elsewhere, coming over as an experienced hire to the current company after a few years. Same years of experience, same job title, except I have experience working a different, more financial function ...

To begin, I believe that gender inequality exists and it certainly may be at play here.

With that said, I happen to work at an organization that values "years worked here" over years of experience. Yes, you can be hired with experience, but they never value it as much as the actual years worked at our institution. Someone could work at a similar organization for 5 years and then be hired to my organization - but they would not be "credited" with 5 years of the same pay at my organization. Is that wrong? Maybe, but it is the way they do it for everyone. (My organization happens to publish salaries so we know this and we know that women are paid the same as men for same title and years of service - but only if those years of service are at this institution.

All of that to is to suggest that they may be thinking of this not as "Dude deserves more than Dudette" - but they may legitimately see it as:
Employee A (who happens to be male) has worked here 5 years
Employee B (who happens to be female) has worked here 3 years (with 2 years of experience somewhere else). They perform equally. We can promote one of them.

I see them going with Employee A all day long.

Or put another way: You have worked for a company for 5 years. Company then hires Sally with 5.5 years of experience. A year later and they are handing out raises and promotions. Are you OK if the company promotes Sally but not you? By your current logic, if there is only money or space for one promotion, it should go to Sally even though she's only been around for 1 year compared to your 6. She has more total years of experience. I think some companies reward loyalty this way.

sequoia

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2017, 08:11:38 PM »
If it makes you angry that much regardless of $2K or $500 pay difference, then get your resume out and get a new job. Life is too short. It is not worth being in a job that makes you unhappy. It is a job, and you need one, but not necessarily this one.

IMHO my happiness (being not angry) worth more than $2K.

pk_aeryn

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2017, 12:26:23 AM »
Quote
Just an anecdotal story -
I was interviewing people for some contract work this week.  I spoke to 20-30 people.  I had X to pay but I was not volunteering that, instead I asked them for their rates.  About 50% of the men I spoke with asked for X, which is about market pay, and about 50% asked for more than X.  Every single woman (about 30% of the pool) asked for less than X.  Most of the woman had more experience than most of the men.

And this is part of the problem- but knowing this, why don't you or your employer just OFFER that x to begin with?  Then it's guaranteed all employees of the same experience/level/title are paid the same, regardless of their gender or anything else.  I know contractors tend to set their own rates so this is a little different from salary - but I wish in general we could have companies state their pay up front.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 12:29:32 AM by pk_aeryn »

caracarn

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2017, 06:47:49 AM »
@Zamboni I do want to offer the other side of "getting other offers".  In every company I have been a part of an employee coming to us and wanting a counter offer was put on a plan to be replaced.  This is a slippery slope and I'd advise anyone to tread lightly.  Even when you are fed up and leaving with no intent of staying and the company tries to counter, you need to understand it for what it usually is; a way to mitigate the impact to the organization by keeping you on while they immediately begin the search for your replacement and then lay you off when they find them.

I've seen much more success with market surveys and external "proof" being provided to get market adjustments.  I got a programmer of mine a 15% bump once to move him up.  Now, even in this scenario, he then felt he had an "in" on how to work the process and when he tried it again, he was given another increase (about 8% that time) but told very clearly by my boss that if he tried it again, he'd be out of a job, that this was the last time we were going to be tossed a "I need to be paid market rate or I'm leaving".  So remember also that you only get to go to the well so many times, so use them strategically. 

ooeei

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2017, 08:11:10 AM »
Quote
Just an anecdotal story -
I was interviewing people for some contract work this week.  I spoke to 20-30 people.  I had X to pay but I was not volunteering that, instead I asked them for their rates.  About 50% of the men I spoke with asked for X, which is about market pay, and about 50% asked for more than X.  Every single woman (about 30% of the pool) asked for less than X.  Most of the woman had more experience than most of the men.

And this is part of the problem- but knowing this, why don't you or your employer just OFFER that x to begin with?  Then it's guaranteed all employees of the same experience/level/title are paid the same, regardless of their gender or anything else.  I know contractors tend to set their own rates so this is a little different from salary - but I wish in general we could have companies state their pay up front.

Why would you pay someone more than they ask for? In a salary negotiation information is power, if possible the company is going to keep as much information as possible to themselves, the same way the employees do (if they're smart). 

If you were applying to jobs and 3 jobs offered you $80k and one job offered you $100k, would you tell the $100k job that all of their competitors are only offering $80k so you'd take it for $85k?


Gronnie

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2017, 10:03:41 AM »
@Zamboni I do want to offer the other side of "getting other offers".  In every company I have been a part of an employee coming to us and wanting a counter offer was put on a plan to be replaced.  This is a slippery slope and I'd advise anyone to tread lightly.  Even when you are fed up and leaving with no intent of staying and the company tries to counter, you need to understand it for what it usually is; a way to mitigate the impact to the organization by keeping you on while they immediately begin the search for your replacement and then lay you off when they find them.

I've seen much more success with market surveys and external "proof" being provided to get market adjustments.  I got a programmer of mine a 15% bump once to move him up.  Now, even in this scenario, he then felt he had an "in" on how to work the process and when he tried it again, he was given another increase (about 8% that time) but told very clearly by my boss that if he tried it again, he'd be out of a job, that this was the last time we were going to be tossed a "I need to be paid market rate or I'm leaving".  So remember also that you only get to go to the well so many times, so use them strategically.

Or.... your company could just pay market rates when you are an employer in a field where it is very easy for an employee to jump ship, unless you want to be constantly finding new employees.

caracarn

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2017, 10:20:37 AM »
@Zamboni I do want to offer the other side of "getting other offers".  In every company I have been a part of an employee coming to us and wanting a counter offer was put on a plan to be replaced.  This is a slippery slope and I'd advise anyone to tread lightly.  Even when you are fed up and leaving with no intent of staying and the company tries to counter, you need to understand it for what it usually is; a way to mitigate the impact to the organization by keeping you on while they immediately begin the search for your replacement and then lay you off when they find them.

I've seen much more success with market surveys and external "proof" being provided to get market adjustments.  I got a programmer of mine a 15% bump once to move him up.  Now, even in this scenario, he then felt he had an "in" on how to work the process and when he tried it again, he was given another increase (about 8% that time) but told very clearly by my boss that if he tried it again, he'd be out of a job, that this was the last time we were going to be tossed a "I need to be paid market rate or I'm leaving".  So remember also that you only get to go to the well so many times, so use them strategically.

Or.... your company could just pay market rates when you are an employer in a field where it is very easy for an employee to jump ship, unless you want to be constantly finding new employees.
You are correct.  And some companies choose or pay below market and deal (or do not deal with it because I believe most people grumble more than that actually take real action on that grumbling, i.e. too lazy to find another job so it's not enough of a problem for them to actually DO something about it). 

I also wonder when I see comments like this which I believe are meant to point out the stupidity of a policy if the poster actually works in an organization and hires staff.  In every case I've ever dealt with the salary you get when you come in is not determined by the market rate but based on what you made last and what you are willing to take.  As an example, we pay market to our developers, but I had a new developer we just hired who made $50K at their last job, for a position that we have budgeted in the $75-90K range which is the market rate for that job.   I wanted to offer them something in the range and  HR said no way we are giving them that big of a pay bump.  Since this thread has gone into gender gap, this is a male employee.  We hired him for $60K.  He was tickled pink because it was a jump up from his last role and the company felt great because we saved money.  I've had even more disparate examples over my career.  It's hard to argue that if I can buy an employees services for a cheaper rate than market that I would not do that. It's a truly interesting discussion particularly on this site where we all focus on maximizing our savings that we are OK paying below market for everything, but when it comes to people's pay, the rules change.  Why is that?  Because we are talking about people rather than things?  If I hire a contractor to chop a tree down in my yard and one charges me $1,000 but another comes in and offers to do it for $500 if I selected the $1,000 contractor and told you I did it because I wanted to pay market rate you'd all face punch me.  So why would I not hire a below market employee if they are willing to take it?  Why are the rules different?

Counting_Down

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2017, 01:30:09 PM »
Wait, what? We're free to make our own decisions and prioritize life based on our situation and values. What's it to you if a mom (or dad for that matter) decides to stay home? My wife decided to become a SAHM when our first came along, and becoming a SAHD was a big part of my motivation to follow her a few years later. The blame here belongs on the way stay at home parents are stigmatized, rather than the parent making a decision they feel is right for their family.
EDIT: Also, isn't it misogynistic to refer to adult women as "girls"?

I don't want to derail the conversation, and perhaps I shouldn't have said anything or should let this alone. But I made a typo that convoluted my point (corrected in original post).  You may still disagree after this clarification and I respect that - to each his own.  Essentially, I'm speaking specifically in cases where people leave their careers after working fewer years than it took them to get the degree.  Seems inefficient to me.  As to the "girls" comment, and again speaking to the ~immediate attrition example, graduating at 22 after 4 years of college...I found college somewhat insulating from the real world.  I certainly didn't feel like and adult at that point, so perhaps others may still have some life experience to gain.  But you know, may not apply to others.

It doesn't help your cause to be judgemental and adopt a harsh attitude towards parents. Why are you tethering yourself to such a out-dated belief that parenting and excellent work don't go together for women?  You line of argument is perverse and unhelpful to your own interests in the long run. Work is not life, and there should be room to be both a parent and employee in any organisation. If women leave their employment, in my experience it's usually bc there is unreasonable expectations on the part of the employer.

Not anti-parent, at all.  Partner and I will have kids, after FIRE, intentionally because I want to be available, and also because I want to share the load 50/50. The comment was specifically about early attrition & STAY AT HOME wives, parents, etc.  My personal motivation is on being self-sufficient.  But again, others may be comfortable in a different situation.

Now, back to the regular programming - having a conversation with the boss tomorrow.  Will update.

mm1970

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2017, 01:30:45 PM »
But I will not hide my ire for women (girls really) who suffered the degree to immediately or >5yrs become a SAHM or SAHW.  I think it does a disservice to those of us who stay, rightfully, about whether or not we can be "counted on" to stick around.

Wait, what? We're free to make our own decisions and prioritize life based on our situation and values. What's it to you if a mom (or dad for that matter) decides to stay home? My wife decided to become a SAHM when our first came along, and becoming a SAHD was a big part of my motivation to follow her a few years later. The blame here belongs on the way stay at home parents are stigmatized, rather than the parent making a decision they feel is right for their family.

EDIT: Also, isn't it misogynistic to refer to adult women as "girls"?
I agree.  The point at which you get weary of the BS is going to change.  Nobody owes you anything.  "They gave up!"  Yes, some of them did. 
- Some of them gave up because they wanted to be SAHMs
- Some of them gave up because the people they were working with were assholes.
- Some of them gave up because after 15 years of working, they were making 70% of the paycheck that their spouses were, and were juggling 2 drop offs and 2 pick ups (because the person making more money has a "more important" job), and eventually said "fuck that" - because, full time job AND a kid or two is EXHAUSTING, and companies, particularly tech companies, are often just unsympathetic and uncaring because they are staffed by dudes.  Dudes who don't have to wake up to breastfeed 3x a night for a year, and take 2-3 breaks during the work day to pump, and deal with plugged ducts and mastitis.

rockstache

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2017, 01:41:23 PM »
Or they didn't give up - they just considered their job a means to an end - like pretty much everyone here. When they no longer wanted/needed it, they quit. Assuming that they did their job while they were at the company, I cannot imagine how anyone could have any bitterness about that.

I don't think there is a similar attitude towards people who decide to leave and go to another company after less than 5 years, although it has the same result. I wish you would hide your ire. It's incredibly judgmental, and I don't see how any other woman's life choices "do a disservice," to you. If they do, it's because people are treating you with bias based on their assumptions of your larger group. They are the ones that deserve the ire.

tweezers

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2017, 02:00:54 PM »
Or they didn't give up - they just considered their job a means to an end - like pretty much everyone here. When they no longer wanted/needed it, they quit. Assuming that they did their job while they were at the company, I cannot imagine how anyone could have any bitterness about that.

I don't think there is a similar attitude towards people who decide to leave and go to another company after less than 5 years, although it has the same result. I wish you would hide your ire. It's incredibly judgmental, and I don't see how any other woman's life choices "do a disservice," to you. If they do, it's because people are treating you with bias based on their assumptions of your larger group. They are the ones that deserve the ire.

+1000. 


bognish

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2017, 02:18:16 PM »
I have hired 2 employees this year. Both told me their prior salary during the interviews and it was below what we were paying the person who left and below the market rate. With managers & HR's agreement  we offered market rate to both employees and they happily accepted a big bump. The new employees are female and the old ones were male. I am sure gender discrimination occurs, but what I have seen is that males regularly ask for more money, higher raises and have been more prone to jump to new companies for a salary bump even if it meant longer hours/commutes or worse work environment.

If an employee is truely better than industry average, but their manager and company do not know this then that is the fault of the employee not demonstrating and communicating their value to the company. I would not promote or give raises to a secret superstar either.

me1

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2017, 02:28:05 PM »
Is how much you made in your previous job a common question in job interviews?
I don't have a lot of experience with interviewing for industry jobs, having spent many years in academia before my current job. But I have never been asked this question. I've been contacted by recruiters since being in my current job, and I have interviewed for a few competitors, but none were offering enough incentive to move. But I have only been asked how much I would expect to be paid, no one has ever asked me how much I am currently paid. I would expect to be paid at minimum 10K more to be worth the hassle.

caracarn

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Re: Just got a raise and I'm still angry
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2017, 02:51:48 PM »
Is how much you made in your previous job a common question in job interviews?
I don't have a lot of experience with interviewing for industry jobs, having spent many years in academia before my current job. But I have never been asked this question. I've been contacted by recruiters since being in my current job, and I have interviewed for a few competitors, but none were offering enough incentive to move. But I have only been asked how much I would expect to be paid, no one has ever asked me how much I am currently paid. I would expect to be paid at minimum 10K more to be worth the hassle.
Yes, in fact HR requires an answer before we will make any offer.  It is also on the paper application and they need to fill it out for the most current job at least.  People try to be evasive and they also know if they are found to have lied in the interview or application that can cause the offer to be rescinded or their employment terminated.  At a minimum they need to answer what they expect to be paid.  I'm up front if this gets difficult.  I do not want to waste my time going back and forth negotiating salary.  They have no reason not to tell me what they want to get paid.  If they do it starts to create questions in my mind about what type of employee they will be.  In bognish's example I'd be fine with "I am currently getting paid $50K but I think that is low compared to the industry and I would not accept an offer less than $65K".  I'm not going to offer them $55K in that case because they've already told me they would not take it.  Now if I think $65K is out of the range then I also tell them.  In the end it's about each of us being respectful of each others time.