Author Topic: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?  (Read 3105 times)

epurpur

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coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« on: December 04, 2020, 06:22:43 PM »
I'm seriously thinking of enrolling in a coding bootcamp in 2021.  To make a long story short I have been teaching myself to code for several years and have learned a lot but feel like I am at a dead end in what I can accomplish alone. I think a coding bootcamp would really benefit me and take my skills to the next level. I also really like programming and am motivated to get better. Lastly, I think it would help a lot with a career change.

But first I want to idiot check myself.  The cost is about $10k and it is a 6 month course. I will keep my day job while I am at it. Am I an idiot to sign up for one? Thanks for your honest input.

ChpBstrd

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2020, 07:33:23 PM »
Not a bad deal. I assume you've done online free services like freecodecamp and got all you can out of it?

Getting an entry-level developer job - even a contract gig - might be another alternative.

ender

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2020, 07:44:16 PM »
I'm not convinced a bootcamp would help someone who already has basics down.

Do they say who the bootcamp is for?

My understandings is bootcamps generally serve "no background at all" folks better.

SimpleCycle

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2020, 07:46:41 PM »
I think code bootcamps vary quite a bit in quality, but assuming you've done your homework and are actively looking to make a career change, it could be well worth it.  I have a friend who did one and changed careers from lawyer to front end developer, so it's not impossible to actually score a job directly because you attended a code bootcamp.  Assuming that would result in income growth, it can pay for itself in short order (assuming you're not a bored lawyer making a lateral or backwards income move).  Even if you are a bored lawyer, I think $10k to switch to a more fulfilling career is money well spent.

I actually think having done a lot of coding on your own will help you excel in a bootcamp environment.  It will probably be too easy for you at the beginning.  Just remember a lot of skills are also learned on the job, so you won't leave the bootcamp an expert.

hal

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2020, 05:25:03 PM »
It completely depends on the boot camp. I actually paid $16k for a full time one earlier this year. But I specifically chose one that was known to be rigorous, interviewed the instructors, etc. A good sign is whether there is an entrance exam to the boot camp. Avoid any that advertise to people with no background whatsoever.

Don’t believe everything that crappy boot camps try to promise. The boot camps run by trilogy are notorious for stretching the truth and having revolving doors of instructors. I’d check out CIRR. It’s an organization designed for fair reporting of boot camp outcomes. For participating boot camps, they have to submit to audits about each graduate’s first job salary etc. I would avoid boot camps not on their list, tbh.

I had also done a lot of self teaching and actually had built out projects. But the pace, curriculum, and networking really helped me accelerate myself into a new career. I have since doubled my income to $90k, so it has definitely paid off.


lutorm

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2020, 08:10:03 PM »
Have you contrasted the cost and utility against taking some "traditional" distance university CS classes? $10k is a lot.

joleran

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2020, 10:24:09 AM »
I think code bootcamps vary quite a bit in quality, but assuming you've done your homework and are actively looking to make a career change, it could be well worth it.  I have a friend who did one and changed careers from lawyer to front end developer, so it's not impossible to actually score a job directly because you attended a code bootcamp.  Assuming that would result in income growth, it can pay for itself in short order (assuming you're not a bored lawyer making a lateral or backwards income move).  Even if you are a bored lawyer, I think $10k to switch to a more fulfilling career is money well spent.

I really wish most careers had this concept.  Would love to start doing some lawyer or doctor stuff after a short bootcamp.  If that sounds scary, it's similar for an engineer but without the strong professional liability issues.

FIPurpose

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2020, 12:02:48 PM »
I think code bootcamps vary quite a bit in quality, but assuming you've done your homework and are actively looking to make a career change, it could be well worth it.  I have a friend who did one and changed careers from lawyer to front end developer, so it's not impossible to actually score a job directly because you attended a code bootcamp.  Assuming that would result in income growth, it can pay for itself in short order (assuming you're not a bored lawyer making a lateral or backwards income move).  Even if you are a bored lawyer, I think $10k to switch to a more fulfilling career is money well spent.

I really wish most careers had this concept.  Would love to start doing some lawyer or doctor stuff after a short bootcamp.  If that sounds scary, it's similar for an engineer but without the strong professional liability issues.

I very much doubt any company that is doing medical/legal coding is hiring recent bootcamp grads to do their software architecture.

SimpleCycle

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2020, 12:36:23 PM »
I think code bootcamps vary quite a bit in quality, but assuming you've done your homework and are actively looking to make a career change, it could be well worth it.  I have a friend who did one and changed careers from lawyer to front end developer, so it's not impossible to actually score a job directly because you attended a code bootcamp.  Assuming that would result in income growth, it can pay for itself in short order (assuming you're not a bored lawyer making a lateral or backwards income move).  Even if you are a bored lawyer, I think $10k to switch to a more fulfilling career is money well spent.

I really wish most careers had this concept.  Would love to start doing some lawyer or doctor stuff after a short bootcamp.  If that sounds scary, it's similar for an engineer but without the strong professional liability issues.

Most of the training for software development is done on the job, which is why most entry level devs are fresh college grads.  Six months of solid teaching is enough to get started.  Like it or not, current demand outstrips supply, so we need to train more people.

I’m in a non-software field that involves quite a bit of programming knowledge, and we regularly hire people with domain knowledge and minimal coding experience.  In that context I’d much prefer someone with a coding bootcamp than someone without.

FIPurpose

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2020, 02:21:28 PM »
I think code bootcamps vary quite a bit in quality, but assuming you've done your homework and are actively looking to make a career change, it could be well worth it.  I have a friend who did one and changed careers from lawyer to front end developer, so it's not impossible to actually score a job directly because you attended a code bootcamp.  Assuming that would result in income growth, it can pay for itself in short order (assuming you're not a bored lawyer making a lateral or backwards income move).  Even if you are a bored lawyer, I think $10k to switch to a more fulfilling career is money well spent.

I really wish most careers had this concept.  Would love to start doing some lawyer or doctor stuff after a short bootcamp.  If that sounds scary, it's similar for an engineer but without the strong professional liability issues.

Most of the training for software development is done on the job, which is why most entry level devs are fresh college grads.  Six months of solid teaching is enough to get started.  Like it or not, current demand outstrips supply, so we need to train more people.

I’m in a non-software field that involves quite a bit of programming knowledge, and we regularly hire people with domain knowledge and minimal coding experience.  In that context I’d much prefer someone with a coding bootcamp than someone without.

Right but this is the problem I think the poster was talking about. The mentality that a 6 month bootcamp is enough to get someone started is a bit demeaning to the profession. You could teach someone most of what they need to know to design a bridge in 6 months, but we don't have civil engineer bootcamps. Because we recognize the value in having a certain level of professionalism.

Plus, there's a bunch of crap software out there. The only reason that companies don't mind hiring bootcamp devs is that most of this code will be gone in less than 5 years. The kind of software development that last 50-60 years is a rare breed and requires a lot of man hours, reworks, and intentional design decisions. Heck, even code that lasts 10 years is a decent. But I imagine most coders don't have code that lasts 5 years. Companies are willing to hire teams of cheap coders when so often a small number of highly experienced devs can accomplish the same thing in less time and higher quality.

Bootcamp coders and people with only a cursory knowledge of the area will never be able to make strong choices for tool selection, what language to use, design choices, etc. because their built around teaching a small handful of highly specific skills. And unless these bootcamp coders devote themselves to digging into higher learning, they just won't be qualified for anything higher up.

lhamo

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2020, 06:52:47 PM »
Bootcamp coders and people with only a cursory knowledge of the area will never be able to make strong choices for tool selection, what language to use, design choices, etc. because their built around teaching a small handful of highly specific skills. And unless these bootcamp coders devote themselves to digging into higher learning, they just won't be qualified for anything higher up.

But given how competitive entry is to most CS programs these days (especially those like the UWs that now do the majority of their admissions directly to high school graduates), where would you have those interested in getting into the field get their foot in the door?  Not saying that bootcamps are going to give them those higher level skills you mention. But presumably most companies have lead software developers and architects who make most of those decisions anyway.  And with a few years of more general programming experience, especially if they are solid learners, a bootcamp graduate would probably have a better idea of what areas they want to focus on and be able to actually get admitted to a program as an older applicant. Versus the guy who suddenly decides he doesn't want to be a lawyer or a PR rep or a teacher anymore.

To use your civil engineering example, if I were trying to decide which non-traditional applilcant to admit to my program, who would be the better risk:  the person who decided they wanted to be a civil engineer because they actually worked on bridge building/maintenance crews and wants to know more of the underlying engineering principals so they can take their career to a new level, or the person who is looking for a career change and just always loved bridges? 

SwordGuy

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2020, 07:43:04 PM »
Bootcamp coders and people with only a cursory knowledge of the area will never be able to make strong choices for tool selection, what language to use, design choices, etc. because their built around teaching a small handful of highly specific skills. And unless these bootcamp coders devote themselves to digging into higher learning, they just won't be qualified for anything higher up.

Management has been making tool, language and design choices for decades despite often having zero clue about what they are doing.    Why would letting a brand new developer do the same thing be any different?  :)

Equally seriously, most new developers show up and work with the tools they are told to use.   So it's generally a moot point.

hal

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2020, 11:54:28 AM »
Bootcamp coders and people with only a cursory knowledge of the area will never be able to make strong choices for tool selection, what language to use, design choices, etc. because their built around teaching a small handful of highly specific skills. And unless these bootcamp coders devote themselves to digging into higher learning, they just won't be qualified for anything higher up.

As an eager bootcamp grad and current software dev, I'll just speak for myself here. I have a genuine interest in learning, and I don't think I would have succeeded in the bootcamp or after without that drive. I didn't "sit and get" a ton of material. Fundamentally, I developed strategies to continue learning and teaching myself more than learning a particular trendy technology, like React. So I'm going to keep this quote in mind as motivation to succeed and continue to learn. Hopefully the work I produce stands for more than pedigree and entrenched opinions.

You mentioned that companies hiring folks like me demeans the profession, which seems like a strongly held opinion, and I'm sure you have reasons for it that are valid. For what it's worth, I'm working with some CS grads who struggle to pick up new material, despite the depth of knowledge they supposedly have. From my perspective, I present humbly in meetings and try to simply contribute and learn, hopefully to shake some of the stigma. Interestingly, my former field (high school teaching) also had alternate pathways (like lateral entry) to join as a result of supply and demand. Some of the best teachers I know were ones who did not start out with a Masters in Teaching. Like programming, a lot is learned on the job and theory learned in college can help but isn't everything, and there is room for everyone to grow.

But for the OP, I think it's worth considering all viewpoints. I have several mentors who graduated from bootcamps and are now senior devs. Two of them are now in Masters programs because of that drive to learn.

Edit: just want to add that I really don’t intend to cause offense here as I think it’s a valid concern brought up. I’ll just quickly say that nobody in my particular cohort was promised that they would be ready on day one for anything and everything. Over and over, we heard that the goal was to get us to a point where we could contribute and continue to learn as junior devs.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 12:12:58 PM by hal »

FIPurpose

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2020, 02:59:40 PM »
Bootcamp coders and people with only a cursory knowledge of the area will never be able to make strong choices for tool selection, what language to use, design choices, etc. because their built around teaching a small handful of highly specific skills. And unless these bootcamp coders devote themselves to digging into higher learning, they just won't be qualified for anything higher up.

As an eager bootcamp grad and current software dev, I'll just speak for myself here. I have a genuine interest in learning, and I don't think I would have succeeded in the bootcamp or after without that drive. I didn't "sit and get" a ton of material. Fundamentally, I developed strategies to continue learning and teaching myself more than learning a particular trendy technology, like React. So I'm going to keep this quote in mind as motivation to succeed and continue to learn. Hopefully the work I produce stands for more than pedigree and entrenched opinions.

You mentioned that companies hiring folks like me demeans the profession, which seems like a strongly held opinion, and I'm sure you have reasons for it that are valid. For what it's worth, I'm working with some CS grads who struggle to pick up new material, despite the depth of knowledge they supposedly have. From my perspective, I present humbly in meetings and try to simply contribute and learn, hopefully to shake some of the stigma. Interestingly, my former field (high school teaching) also had alternate pathways (like lateral entry) to join as a result of supply and demand. Some of the best teachers I know were ones who did not start out with a Masters in Teaching. Like programming, a lot is learned on the job and theory learned in college can help but isn't everything, and there is room for everyone to grow.

But for the OP, I think it's worth considering all viewpoints. I have several mentors who graduated from bootcamps and are now senior devs. Two of them are now in Masters programs because of that drive to learn.

Edit: just want to add that I really don’t intend to cause offense here as I think it’s a valid concern brought up. I’ll just quickly say that nobody in my particular cohort was promised that they would be ready on day one for anything and everything. Over and over, we heard that the goal was to get us to a point where we could contribute and continue to learn as junior devs.

I didn't mean that "bootcamp devs" don't deserve to be hired. They have a particular niche that they are filling. What I mean is that "bootcamp devs" and "CS grads" are fundamentally different breeds. And while they both have some growing to do when they first get a job, the CS grad is going to have a certain academic background that will include important knowledge that is going to put a ceiling on how far up the chain a "bootcamp dev" can get. Now if a CS grad just did the bare minimum to get by "C's get degrees", then they are going to have the same ceiling as a bootcamp dev.

It sounds like the bootcamp devs that you know understand this too if they went back to school to get an MS. There just isn't the time in a bootcamp to build up from the fundamentals so that they can understand why to make certain decisions rather than just the rote memorization that often comes with these camps. I've tutored many bootcamp devs and while many can be quick to figure out an answer to a problem, they often can't trace through and explain code very well or can't necessarily explain why one data structure might be a better choice over another for their particular problem.

This is beyond the topic of the thread, but I've recently been thinking that there does need to be a Professional Engineering License for software devs especially for people that work in important fields. For civil engineers, we require a university degree, 4 years of experience under a PE, and then an exam before you're allowed to sign off on construction. There will always be plenty of work not needed to be filled by a software PE, but currently, the only way to credential yourself in the US is through a Master's program. Which is fine, but we need some better gate keeping on really important software to make sure that all software used in medical, finance, etc is meeting a minimum standard of quality. Today, we just all nod along with software that ships broken on purpose, but the profession needs to bring in the reigns to regain some of the public trust.

hal

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2020, 04:38:31 PM »
Bootcamp coders and people with only a cursory knowledge of the area will never be able to make strong choices for tool selection, what language to use, design choices, etc. because their built around teaching a small handful of highly specific skills. And unless these bootcamp coders devote themselves to digging into higher learning, they just won't be qualified for anything higher up.

As an eager bootcamp grad and current software dev, I'll just speak for myself here. I have a genuine interest in learning, and I don't think I would have succeeded in the bootcamp or after without that drive. I didn't "sit and get" a ton of material. Fundamentally, I developed strategies to continue learning and teaching myself more than learning a particular trendy technology, like React. So I'm going to keep this quote in mind as motivation to succeed and continue to learn. Hopefully the work I produce stands for more than pedigree and entrenched opinions.

You mentioned that companies hiring folks like me demeans the profession, which seems like a strongly held opinion, and I'm sure you have reasons for it that are valid. For what it's worth, I'm working with some CS grads who struggle to pick up new material, despite the depth of knowledge they supposedly have. From my perspective, I present humbly in meetings and try to simply contribute and learn, hopefully to shake some of the stigma. Interestingly, my former field (high school teaching) also had alternate pathways (like lateral entry) to join as a result of supply and demand. Some of the best teachers I know were ones who did not start out with a Masters in Teaching. Like programming, a lot is learned on the job and theory learned in college can help but isn't everything, and there is room for everyone to grow.

But for the OP, I think it's worth considering all viewpoints. I have several mentors who graduated from bootcamps and are now senior devs. Two of them are now in Masters programs because of that drive to learn.

Edit: just want to add that I really don’t intend to cause offense here as I think it’s a valid concern brought up. I’ll just quickly say that nobody in my particular cohort was promised that they would be ready on day one for anything and everything. Over and over, we heard that the goal was to get us to a point where we could contribute and continue to learn as junior devs.

I didn't mean that "bootcamp devs" don't deserve to be hired. They have a particular niche that they are filling. What I mean is that "bootcamp devs" and "CS grads" are fundamentally different breeds. And while they both have some growing to do when they first get a job, the CS grad is going to have a certain academic background that will include important knowledge that is going to put a ceiling on how far up the chain a "bootcamp dev" can get. Now if a CS grad just did the bare minimum to get by "C's get degrees", then they are going to have the same ceiling as a bootcamp dev.

It sounds like the bootcamp devs that you know understand this too if they went back to school to get an MS. There just isn't the time in a bootcamp to build up from the fundamentals so that they can understand why to make certain decisions rather than just the rote memorization that often comes with these camps. I've tutored many bootcamp devs and while many can be quick to figure out an answer to a problem, they often can't trace through and explain code very well or can't necessarily explain why one data structure might be a better choice over another for their particular problem.

This is beyond the topic of the thread, but I've recently been thinking that there does need to be a Professional Engineering License for software devs especially for people that work in important fields. For civil engineers, we require a university degree, 4 years of experience under a PE, and then an exam before you're allowed to sign off on construction. There will always be plenty of work not needed to be filled by a software PE, but currently, the only way to credential yourself in the US is through a Master's program. Which is fine, but we need some better gate keeping on really important software to make sure that all software used in medical, finance, etc is meeting a minimum standard of quality. Today, we just all nod along with software that ships broken on purpose, but the profession needs to bring in the reigns to regain some of the public trust.

Fair points all around. And maybe I'll run into that ceiling myself, who knows? Maybe that'll be the time to explore a Masters...

Not that titles matter all that much, I do find myself more likely to call myself a "software developer" than an engineer. A friend of mine who works at Google asked me about that over the weekend, and I would only feel comfortable calling myself an engineer if a) I want to engineering school and/or b) I was actually architecting the software and/or c) working on some of the cool tools that open the gates for more and more developers (like Angular or Node or what have you).

PDXTabs

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2020, 06:00:21 PM »
I didn't mean that "bootcamp devs" don't deserve to be hired. They have a particular niche that they are filling. What I mean is that "bootcamp devs" and "CS grads" are fundamentally different breeds. And while they both have some growing to do when they first get a job, the CS grad is going to have a certain academic background that will include important knowledge that is going to put a ceiling on how far up the chain a "bootcamp dev" can get. Now if a CS grad just did the bare minimum to get by "C's get degrees", then they are going to have the same ceiling as a bootcamp dev.

I don't know if this is actually true. I have a BS in CS, but my former roommate had absolutely no formal education past high school and went on to be a Principal Engineer at Yahoo. Furthermore, a ton of my formal education is for stuff that I never use in my day job like chemistry, physics, (non-technical) writing, history, calculus, and compilers. I like education and all, but I've seen self educated people become very successful.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 06:02:34 PM by PDXTabs »

FIPurpose

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2020, 08:44:33 PM »
I didn't mean that "bootcamp devs" don't deserve to be hired. They have a particular niche that they are filling. What I mean is that "bootcamp devs" and "CS grads" are fundamentally different breeds. And while they both have some growing to do when they first get a job, the CS grad is going to have a certain academic background that will include important knowledge that is going to put a ceiling on how far up the chain a "bootcamp dev" can get. Now if a CS grad just did the bare minimum to get by "C's get degrees", then they are going to have the same ceiling as a bootcamp dev.

I don't know if this is actually true. I have a BS in CS, but my former roommate had absolutely no formal education past high school and went on to be a Principal Engineer at Yahoo. Furthermore, a ton of my formal education is for stuff that I never use in my day job like chemistry, physics, (non-technical) writing, history, calculus, and compilers. I like education and all, but I've seen self educated people become very successful.

It's not always obvious what certain titles mean. So I don't know what kind of position your friend is filling. It's not impossible for a self-taught person to make it up the chain, it's just less common. People like Bill Gates exist. But it's much safer to say that that's probably not the rule.

I worked at HP for a few years and there I think just about anyone given enough time could make it to Dev III, but then they had ceilings on what it took to make it higher up the engineering chain. Usually that meant you had to contribute at a much higher level creating a serious level of tooling, patents, or writing several research papers that contributed to the success of the product (or general valuable IP).

The top position at my branch was responsible for directing the architecture for the entire InkJet Firmware which was responsible for 5-7 products each year, 5-6 separate component teams, etc. He was one of those guys that absolutely knew Linux inside and out. Even several years in, I still felt like I was barely scratching the surface of linux dev.

Obviously even most CS grads will never attain that level of proficiency. Most will either enjoy just being a mid-level IC or move into management. Honestly, the pay doesn't really go up all that much the higher you go. It seems like most mid-career software is paying about 120-150k these days and switching to management or trying to get into a higher position just isn't going to pay out until you get to the Executive suite.

PDXTabs

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2020, 09:18:15 PM »
It's not always obvious what certain titles mean. So I don't know what kind of position your friend is filling. It's not impossible for a self-taught person to make it up the chain, it's just less common. People like Bill Gates exist. But it's much safer to say that that's probably not the rule.

You're not wrong. For every Bill Gates there are millions of non-Gates.

I worked at HP for a few years and there I think just about anyone given enough time could make it to Dev III, but then they had ceilings on what it took to make it higher up the engineering chain. Usually that meant you had to contribute at a much higher level creating a serious level of tooling, patents, or writing several research papers that contributed to the success of the product (or general valuable IP).

Me too. I worked there three times for a total of 10 years, I think. In fact, I think that we were on the same Wi-Fi team in Vancouver, WA. But HP is actually a great example of arbitrary rules. Lots of successful FW engineers with ME backgrounds, but they absolutely demand a degree just to have a piece of paper to show to HR.

The top position at my branch was responsible for directing the architecture for the entire InkJet Firmware which was responsible for 5-7 products each year, 5-6 separate component teams, etc. He was one of those guys that absolutely knew Linux inside and out. Even several years in, I still felt like I was barely scratching the surface of linux dev.

If this is the person that I'm thinking of he has a BS in ECE from a state school. His real knowledge comes from actually spending years coding in the kernel at a prior job. Which is sort of my point: he's an amazing engineer not because of his degree but because of his real world experience.

Obviously even most CS grads will never attain that level of proficiency. Most will either enjoy just being a mid-level IC or move into management. Honestly, the pay doesn't really go up all that much the higher you go. It seems like most mid-career software is paying about 120-150k these days and switching to management or trying to get into a higher position just isn't going to pay out until you get to the Executive suite.

Yup, but I know bootcamp grads that make more than I did for most of my career at HP.

FIPurpose

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2020, 10:36:01 PM »
Me too. I worked there three times for a total of 10 years, I think. In fact, I think that we were on the same Wi-Fi team in Vancouver, WA. But HP is actually a great example of arbitrary rules. Lots of successful FW engineers with ME backgrounds, but they absolutely demand a degree just to have a piece of paper to show to HR.

...

If this is the person that I'm thinking of he has a BS in ECE from a state school. His real knowledge comes from actually spending years coding in the kernel at a prior job. Which is sort of my point: he's an amazing engineer not because of his degree but because of his real world experience.

...

Yup, but I know bootcamp grads that make more than I did for most of my career at HP.

Hah! Found out! I do remember now discussing MMM stuff with you at work. I don't disagree with anything you said. Though I wouldn't discount the value of an ECE background in being able to learn the kernel. Though maybe Linux was a bad example, because the only way to learn it is through a lot of practice, reading, trial and error, and historical/institutional knowledge. There is no fast track to becoming a Linux expert.

And a big amen to HP's arbitrary gate-keeping.

True enough about boot camp grads making more money. The kind of person that goes to bootcamp tends to be the kind of person that has a lot of hustle, and if I had more hustle and moved jobs more or focused on getting the highest pay possible, I probably could be paid 30-50% more than I do now (probably more if I was willing to move)

All this to say. I don't want to discourage anyone from going to a bootcamp. It's a great path to a career, but people should also understand what they're getting into. It'll likely be doing a lot of code monkey work for a number of years. But given the right job market, you can make a great ROI from the time/money investment.

At the other end, I know that there are A LOT of people that can't make it through those boot camps, (I tutored a lot of those people too). The camps move at way too fast of a pace or aren't teaching relevant material. And I'm guessing that a lot of the grads end up making full careers doing front-end web dev. which is a perfectly fine choice.

If I didn't have a CS degree and you told me the most likely job waiting for me at the other end of a bootcamp was a front-end web dev job (that's where I've met most bootcamp grads I know), I'd be looking for something else to do even if it made less money.

There's lots of overlap, but the job possibilities and actual job duties, let's say, have slightly different Gaussian distributions as to a person's potential outcome.

Metalcat

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2020, 04:45:45 AM »
I know a number of tremendously successful self-taught software folks. But as has been explained above, they're kind of the exception that proves the rule.

Its not that a Bootcamp grad can't make it in the industry, it's that you can't expect a wildly successful career with *just* Bootcamp.

The guys I know killing it in software who have virtually no formal education in it are guys who basically grew up speaking coding as their first language. This meant they had years of professional experience under their belts before the CS guys even graduated, and they were moving into senior roles in their 20s before the CS guys got their first promotions.

Back in the 90s when I was in highschool, it was a small minority who were computer savvy, and in my circle, those guys lived ate and breathed their computers and software. One friend was recruited by a major software firm at 16, another was recruited by the government at 18.

My point being, there is no limit to what a self taught software engineer can achieve professionally, but the ones who achieve aren't operating on only 6 months of training. A Bootcamp can be a great first step, but to make a solid professional go of it takes learning A LOT more than that.

It can absolutely be done, and for really talented and self directed people, it might be the better and more efficient way to go, but that path requires a lot of self-motivation to be able to compete with the far more formally educated.

A family member lost his job due to covid and was thinking of one of these Bootcamps to switch careers. He really was thinking of it as "I'll do this training and then have a whole new career" as if it was a substitute for a full degree. None of our family was overly supportive because he showed no real passion for it, and wasn't quite realizing that it was really just a "primer" education.

So my take on it is: if you are passionate about software, talented at it, and highly motivated to learn on the job and in your spare time, then a Bootcamp might be an ideal option for you, perhaps even a smarter path than getting a CS degree.

However, if it's something you're considering because the education is short and software seems like a reliable career, then I would go into it with rather tempered expectations of career outcome.

mozar

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2020, 10:18:21 AM »
I recommend a boot camp that includes an internship, or at the very least, ties to the industry you want to get into and professional recruitment. I was considering boot camp a couple of years ago and the one I was considering had recruiters from the federal government.

PDXTabs

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2020, 12:01:34 PM »
Back in the 90s when I was in highschool, it was a small minority who were computer savvy, and in my circle, those guys lived ate and breathed their computers and software. One friend was recruited by a major software firm at 16, another was recruited by the government at 18.

This is true. I was the guy running Debian 2.0 on my desktop and building my own routers with FreeBSD OpenBSD and surplus hardware. I was QA for an embedded Linux product at a certain huge Hillsboro, OR employer before embedded Linux was cool and before I had my degree. I worked in tech for three full years before I got my BS in CS and still value it for the doors that it opened for me, especially after the .com bust and the great recession. I also happen to enjoy university.

A family member lost his job due to covid and was thinking of one of these Bootcamps to switch careers. He really was thinking of it as "I'll do this training and then have a whole new career" as if it was a substitute for a full degree. None of our family was overly supportive because he showed no real passion for it, and wasn't quite realizing that it was really just a "primer" education.

I completely agree, but I also know people that got most or all of a BS in CS this way. Better to fail after six months of not being passionate than five years if you really don't care for it. Of course, if you are a middle-of-the-road developer perhaps the BS in CS was going to be enough to push you over the edge.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 01:16:44 PM by PDXTabs »

wheninroma

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2020, 09:44:29 AM »
Bootcamp grad here. I'm currently at Google, and don't perceive the lack of degree to be impacting my career ceiling at all. Whether it does probably depends on what company and area of software development you end up in. Counterintuitively, I don't think that the big tech firms care much about degree. Once you're in the door, you're judged on what you've done at the company. And getting in the door is mostly about getting an interview - I worked a year and a half at a different company first - and then nailing your algorithms and data structures.

All that said, I agree with several other posts in that 1) bootcamps are usually for those with minimal experience - more on this in a second, and 2) be very careful about *which* bootcamp, and 3) your mileage may vary. I feel my career has been very successful since bootcamp and don't regret it at all, but I also was probably the top student in my cohort (~20 people). I also know  people who never successfully made the transition from bootcamp to industry, so this is not a sure shot. In between these extremes is the typical case: people who get fairly entry-level jobs afterward and start working their way up.

You mentioned you've been coding by yourself for a few years. Some questions to ask yourself: what are the barriers that you feel you're reaching? What about a bootcamp would solve that for you? It depends on what "a few years" means, and which bootcamps, but that's enough time for you to have covered the majority of what a bootcamp would teach you.

Happy to answer more questions too if you want to DM me.

hal

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2020, 07:50:49 AM »
Bootcamp grad here. I'm currently at Google, and don't perceive the lack of degree to be impacting my career ceiling at all. Whether it does probably depends on what company and area of software development you end up in. Counterintuitively, I don't think that the big tech firms care much about degree. Once you're in the door, you're judged on what you've done at the company. And getting in the door is mostly about getting an interview - I worked a year and a half at a different company first - and then nailing your algorithms and data structures.

All that said, I agree with several other posts in that 1) bootcamps are usually for those with minimal experience - more on this in a second, and 2) be very careful about *which* bootcamp, and 3) your mileage may vary. I feel my career has been very successful since bootcamp and don't regret it at all, but I also was probably the top student in my cohort (~20 people). I also know  people who never successfully made the transition from bootcamp to industry, so this is not a sure shot. In between these extremes is the typical case: people who get fairly entry-level jobs afterward and start working their way up.

You mentioned you've been coding by yourself for a few years. Some questions to ask yourself: what are the barriers that you feel you're reaching? What about a bootcamp would solve that for you? It depends on what "a few years" means, and which bootcamps, but that's enough time for you to have covered the majority of what a bootcamp would teach you.

Happy to answer more questions too if you want to DM me.

I think this is a great perspective. Similarly, I was among the top in my cohort, and we all landed good jobs during the pandemic. But there are a few stragglers who realized that maybe they didn't like coding as much as they thought and actually sought out roles as Business Analysts instead. So it worked out for them in the end, but I'd say one prerequisite is to actually dig coding, debugging, etc. And I'm heartened that the OP has been coding on their own for a while, as that's a good start.

goatmom

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2020, 12:35:37 PM »
My son graduated from college with history major.  He did poorly in college despite being pretty smart.  I think lack of focus and an abundance of beer. Moved back home and was waiting tables.  He had no programming experience.  I heard about bootcamps and sent him an email with the link.  The other day he sent that initial email back to me with a funny note.  That email was sent 3 years ago.  He completed bootcamp in December 2017 and is now making over 6 figures.  The initial cost was about $17,000.  I think it was in-person for 17 weeks. So well worth it.  He had to take an initial entrance exam.  Before he was hired - he had to take coding challenges.  He worked his butt off during those 17 weeks like he had never done in college.  He is now married and has paid off his college loans.  Was a wonderful choice for him.

BigEasyStache

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2020, 12:52:58 PM »
I've been coding for 37 years.  Yeah, I'm old...but very proficient at embedded coding.  I hope this audience realizes the difference between coding for I.T or business projects and embedded coding.  Embedded coding is the $hit.  I get to turn on relays, start fires, spin cylinders at 300 G's.  But.....I've also lost some sleep worrying that if I don't code with a bajillion layers of safety someone or some thing may get hurt.

So imaging running multiple internal and external interrupt services, handling multiple pieces of machinery, all while being tethered to the main control loop.  Yeah, this is some fun stuff.  Stuff you'll never learn at bootcamp.  In fact, we see that it takes anywhere from 6 months to 2 years for our new EE's/CS's to become somewhat productive.

But if you're good at embedded coding, especially Linux based, you'll never go long without a job offer.

Just for fun, here's a list of languages kinda in the order I learned/used:

Assembly
Fortran 77
PL/M 80 (8085 intel based language actually used to control the first moon rover)
PL/M 86 (8080/80186 based language)
C86
C++




MissPeach

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2020, 04:09:50 PM »
I've been in the tech field for a long time and have been an architect and a manager. IME a lot of new grads have some basics down but it can be a mixed bag as to how well they code and what they can take on project-wise. I've seen really smart people with aptitude do really well with it (including people like me with no CS degree). I've also seen people with CS degrees and horrible code. A lot of the interview process at most companies seems to be about vetting out whether you can write and debug code. Once you get past that it's mostly cultural fit types of questions.

For me I've been open to hiring people with 'lesser' schooling who are sharp, good at problem solving, and know how to find answers. I've run into several people who cared there was a degree but most don't seem to care what it's in. I have tried to bring in a few junior or mid level engineers for interviews and have been told I can't take them farther because they don't have a degree. For me once i got about 5 years in no one cared anymore that my degree wasn't in CS or MIS.

If I were hiring someone I would rather have someone with a boot camp who knows some basics like syntax, design patterns, etc. than nothing tangible. I haven't looked too much into boot camps but I would imagine that sort of thing would be covered. Once you get a few years in and have something to show off then I don't think it would be an issue. You may run into some resistance with no degree but if you have one in something else and the boot camp I think you'll be fine.



« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 04:13:40 PM by MissPeach »

joleran

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2020, 11:48:13 AM »
I've been coding for 37 years.  Yeah, I'm old...but very proficient at embedded coding.  I hope this audience realizes the difference between coding for I.T or business projects and embedded coding.  Embedded coding is the $hit.  I get to turn on relays, start fires, spin cylinders at 300 G's.  But.....I've also lost some sleep worrying that if I don't code with a bajillion layers of safety someone or some thing may get hurt.

The really fun part starts when someone with this background and mindset with critical hardware components tries to apply the same stringency to cloud based user experience software.  Ask me how I know!

ChpBstrd

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2020, 02:23:30 PM »
I've been coding for 37 years.  Yeah, I'm old...but very proficient at embedded coding.  I hope this audience realizes the difference between coding for I.T or business projects and embedded coding.  Embedded coding is the $hit.  I get to turn on relays, start fires, spin cylinders at 300 G's.  But.....I've also lost some sleep worrying that if I don't code with a bajillion layers of safety someone or some thing may get hurt.

The really fun part starts when someone with this background and mindset with critical hardware components tries to apply the same stringency to cloud based user experience software.  Ask me how I know!

The rampant tolerance for bugginess is why a lot of people think the term “software engineer” should just be “software writer”. Imagine if structural engineers announced that the bridge collapsed due to a minor oversight that will be fixed in the next release, and we’re on our 8th bridge lol.

hal

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Re: coding bootcamp - horribly non moustachian?
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2020, 02:43:00 PM »
I've been coding for 37 years.  Yeah, I'm old...but very proficient at embedded coding.  I hope this audience realizes the difference between coding for I.T or business projects and embedded coding.  Embedded coding is the $hit.  I get to turn on relays, start fires, spin cylinders at 300 G's.  But.....I've also lost some sleep worrying that if I don't code with a bajillion layers of safety someone or some thing may get hurt.

The really fun part starts when someone with this background and mindset with critical hardware components tries to apply the same stringency to cloud based user experience software.  Ask me how I know!

The rampant tolerance for bugginess is why a lot of people think the term “software engineer” should just be “software writer”. Imagine if structural engineers announced that the bridge collapsed due to a minor oversight that will be fixed in the next release, and we’re on our 8th bridge lol.

I'm fine with any title so long as the pay is good ;)