Job philosophy and career stagnation

[Healthie]

I've had a realization that I am likely done progressing in my career. I'm in a union position at the top of my wage grid. I have some interest in being something in leadership, but I work in healthcare without a masters degree or nursing degree (which most leadership positions prefer or require) and I don't plan on getting either. In addition, middle management in healthcare seems like a bit of a nightmare for an extra 20k/year. I have a lot of hobbies, some significant volunteer work I find very gratifying, and a good social circle.

I'm in my early 30s and financially in a good spot. Through my 20s I was looking at progressing to the next thing, but now I'm planning on sitting in my role for some time. We just got a new contract with a significant wage bump, and my plan is to ride out my career here. There is something slightly relieving to plan on simmering, but at times I am looking out into the void of the next 20-25 years of working. It's an adequate job, but still a job.

I'm wondering,

Have you gotten to a point in your career where you stopped climbing and coasted along collecting your pensionable years, and how did that go for you?

Is there a job philosophy that helps you stay in your career without burning out?

[JJ-]

I recently discovered that I had a lot of feelings of "I could do that" or "I'm interested in that" were all motivated by money. I never took the time to step back and evaluate what I really wanted.

You have to find some meaning in your work. Do you have kids and need to provide for them? Do you have loans or something that need to be paid off? If you can't find a reason why you're doing something, my guess is you'll probably resent it after a bit.

For what it's worth, I decided that even 5 more years in a job I didn't enjoy wasn't worth it for FI. I ended up quitting  after a sabbatical and I'll be doing something I said I'd never do again (go back to school) because it's a necessary step in helping me do what I want to do at the end of the day. I'm excited about it too.

Plenty of folks will provide other perspectives on why or how to coast, but I personally ignored all the warning signs and ended up burning out. I was doing it for the wrong reasons ($) and it did not align with my goals/values/desires. Instead of doing it longer so I could do what I wanted when I was done, I just realized go on and do what I want to do FI or not because what I want to do is remunerable.

DM me if you want to chat more on specifics.

[nouseforausername]

Have you gotten to a point in your career where you stopped climbing and coasted along collecting your pensionable years, and how did that go for you?

Is there a job philosophy that helps you stay in your career without burning out?

Positive reframing, reading up on stoicism, and maintaining work and private life relationships are key for me.

Also, there is a tough realization I've made for myself that my own possiblities for burnout are partially of my own making. My job plans for turnover, and expects turnover. I do not gain anything in expecting my employer to value my skillset or work ethic simply because it's not required for the job.

I've had past positions that required an A+ technical skillset applied daily at a very high level. My current position requires a C effort applied at a C level in order to land in the top 20% of performers. Burning myself out to achieve anything higher is my own fault in this sense. (Just talking about myself, no one else.)

Meanwhile, I read this blog and save as a hedge against an eventual wall I might hit. :)

[Zikoris]

Technically I never got to the point of climbing at all - and highly recommend it. In 2012 I figured out that by keeping my expenses low I could just take super chill clerical/reception jobs where I hardly have to do any work, and still save 2/3 of my income. I've been doing that ever since. I'm right on the cusp of early retirement now. Never had any interest in having a career.

[Metalcat]

Yes, my first job out of school was at the very, very top of my career and there was virtually no way to top it.

I ended up leaving it because it was a toxic work environment and focused on finding what was technically a demotion to find a much more satisfying, challenging, and supportive position. 

By doing that, I ended up dramatically improving my reputation in the profession because everyone knew that I walked away from "success" to pursue more quality work over quantity, and work under one of the most famously ethical and meticulous professionals in the region.

It was easy to stay motivated and not burn out, because I focused so intensely on doing only the work I loved doing and establishing amazing work-life boundaries.

Because I wasn't the one at the top of the org chart, so much responsibility wasn't mine. I had enormous autonomy and took over much of the operations of the place, but that was by choice and only the stuff I really wanted to take over.

It was remarkably satisfying.

My DH hit that level after about 20 years in his career. He worked his ass off building one of the most broad and valuable ranges of skill in his profession and finally landed his dream job last year. However, he landed his dream job level years before that and long ago decided that moving up further on the ladder was pointless.

He works for the government, a single step up and he is taken away from the work he absolutely loves and half his job becomes management BS that he doesn't want to do. Plus at his level, he's very well paid for his leisurely 37.5 hours a week of work. The higher you go in the executive level of government in Canada, the more underpaid people are compared to private sector and the intense hours required.

People stick around because by the time they get to the exec level, they have the golden handcuffs of the premium pension, so they never leave. Staff at his level who are exceptionally skilled in broad competencies are treated like solid gold, staff just above him are treated like dog shit.

So since he got his level, he just moves around laterally looking for more and more interesting projects to work on with high caliber teams.

Both he and I found more motivation and more dedication to the work when we were so-called "coasting" than when we were climbing.

Career success means whatever you decide it means. If you decide it means constantly moving up, then you are kind of doomed to burn out. But if you decide it means getting the most satisfaction out of your career/work with an optimal work/life balance, then there's still TONS to work for once you reach the compensation level where going higher Is a disadvantageous trade off.

Don't let the corporate machine tell you what success looks like for you. Only you get to decide that for yourself.

[Freedomin5]

Have you gotten to a point in your career where you stopped climbing and coasted along collecting your pensionable years, and how did that go for you?

Is there a job philosophy that helps you stay in your career without burning out?

Yes. The first few years of my career was focused on establishing myself and building work experience. Eventually, I became known as one of the top professionals in my field in the country. I decided to stop there, and then after a few years, to take a 40% pay cut by switching to a job where I would work fewer hours and have much better work-life balance. This new job only involved the "easy tasks" from my previous job and none of the "hard tasks".

The next step would have been to take over a department and become one of the decision-makers and to become one of the movers-influencers in the field by taking a leadership position in the professional organization governing my field in my city, and then partnering with the government to continue extending my influence across the country. I did a cost-benefit analysis, and decided that the additional accolades and adulation wasn't worth the additional stress and responsibility.

There are a few sayings here, "The head of the snake is cut off," and "The nail that stands out is the first to be pounded down." There is wisdom in those words. If I were to be responsible for decisions that could impact the entire professional field in this country, I had better be WELL-compensated for taking on the risk. Just becoming famous isn't going to cut it for me. And if I don't need that compensation because I'm basically FI, then there is no reason to keep climbing the professional ladder.

Currently, my coasting job philosophy is to do tasks I enjoy or that I don't mind doing. I remind myself not to take things too much to heart and not to take too much ownership over work tasks. Sure, I do a good job, but I don't go above and beyond. Because I've been doing these tasks for years, it's mostly all easy for me, which means stress is at a minimum, though as a high achiever, I constantly have to remind myself not to stress out or try to do better or be better. Good enough is good enough. That helps me not to burn out and not to feel bored at work.

My job is just a job. As others have mentioned, build a life outside of work. I've kept myself open to other opportunities, and currently, the most rewarding opportunity is a volunteer position where I'm mentoring and supervising others. They are doing exciting things and have opportunities to which I do not have access due to language and cultural barriers.

And if you have to still work for 20-25 years before becoming FI, perhaps spend some time considering how you could reduce those years, such as by reducing expenses, by exploring side hustles that interest you, or by looking for new job opportunities that allow you to move laterally (so you're not climbing the corporate ladder) but that also pay more.

My career has absolutely stagnated, and I'm loving it so far.

[FLBiker]

My career (such as it is) has very much been driven by lifestyle over ambition.  As I got older, money factored in a bit more, but never at the expense of work-life balance.  And I've sometimes felt that I should find a more "meaningful" career, but ultimately (so far) I've found meaning in providing for my family and enabling us to have a lifestyle that works for us.

After college, I taught English overseas (Taiwan) for 5 years.  This decision was entirely based on wanting to live in Taiwan (as opposed to a passion for teaching English).  At the same time, I enjoyed the job, and I saved ~50% of my (relatively small) income.  Then I got a Masters Degree (paid for by a teaching assistantship) and then I taught for a year in China (again, because I wanted to live in China).  I then got a job at an American university, and transitioned into administration due to a combination of liking to do computer stuff (e.g. making a student records database) and departmental changes that brought about tremendous growth (250 students to 1200 students over a few years).  During my 10 years there, I had 6 different titles and my salary doubled.  At the same time, I did say "no" to a couple of positions due to work-life balance concerns.

And then, ~4 years ago, we decided we wanted to move to Canada.  I found a job working with a company that worked very closely with my department which would also allow me work from Canada.  It was a lateral move in terms of salary, but the work is very different (I'm now a business analyst) and, most importantly, it enables my family to live in a small town in Nova Scotia which we absolutely love.  If I hadn't gotten this job, we likely would have settled in / close to Halifax (for work opportunities), and none of us prefer the city.

I sometimes think about changing jobs (seeking something "meaningful") but I like the people I work with and a lot of the logistical elements are very good -- I work from home, I don't work outside business hours, I get paid well (by my modest standards).  I also sometimes think about changing jobs to meet more local people / be face to face, but the reality is that my skillset (while in demand) would likely work best as a consultant, and I'm not much of a hustler / networker, so I don't know how well I'd do with that.  At the same time, I've started working with someone locally who does database development and other IT consulting so we'll see.  I'm thinking that, in 2-3 years, I'd like to downshift (or quit) and these local opportunities could be a good hobby job.

I mostly feel tremendously grateful for having had jobs that have enabled me (and later us) to save money and live where I want, but I do sometimes wonder if I should be doing something "more".  At the same time, I have no idea what that is -- I have no great professional passion.  I like spending time with my family, hiking and meditating.  Messing around on computers is OK, too, but significantly further down the list.  And it's the only one I've been able to turn into a job so far. :)

[samanil]

Technically I never got to the point of climbing at all - and highly recommend it. In 2012 I figured out that by keeping my expenses low I could just take super chill clerical/reception jobs where I hardly have to do any work, and still save 2/3 of my income. I've been doing that ever since. I'm right on the cusp of early retirement now. Never had any interest in having a career.

I'm going through a job related existential crisis at the moment (just laid off), and this comment of yours is hitting home in all sorts of ways. I'll be spending some time on your blog in the coming days ;)

[mspym]

Have you gotten to a point in your career where you stopped climbing and coasted along collecting your pensionable years, and how did that go for you?

Is there a job philosophy that helps you stay in your career without burning out?

I've had a number of years where I was happy to coast along in a job because it was funding my life outside of work. You seem to be in that sweet spot:

I have a lot of hobbies, some significant volunteer work I find very gratifying, and a good social circle.

[Zikoris]

Technically I never got to the point of climbing at all - and highly recommend it. In 2012 I figured out that by keeping my expenses low I could just take super chill clerical/reception jobs where I hardly have to do any work, and still save 2/3 of my income. I've been doing that ever since. I'm right on the cusp of early retirement now. Never had any interest in having a career.

I'm going through a job related existential crisis at the moment (just laid off), and this comment of yours is hitting home in all sorts of ways. I'll be spending some time on your blog in the coming days ;)

Slackers of MMM unite!

[2Birds1Stone]

You've been a member here 9 years and you plan on working 20-25 more years?

*facepunch*

[Malossi792]

You've been a member here 9 years and you plan on working 20-25 more years?

*facepunch*

+1
9 very asset -friendly years, too.
Work on those frugality muscles a bit.

[LonerMatt]

My philosophy, which is not easy for me to live, is for my day jo to be 'good enough'.

Good enough money to pay my bills.
Good enough work that it's mildly interesting some of the time.
Good enough so that it's not stressful.
Good enough so that I have the time to pursue my ambitions and dreams outside of work.

Promotions, prestige, etc, don't interest me. I want some autonomy (difficult to get at my current gig), creativity and community. I don't need all of those maxed out, but there should be some of those things, that's good enough. I don't need perfect, and I strive to be ok with a C+ workplace.

[jrhampt]

Yes.  Over 10 years ago, I found that I had maneuvered myself into a somewhat enjoyable 100% remote work role as an individual contributor at the top of my pay grade, where I never had to work weekends or over 40 hours a week, and had plenty of time to pursue life outside work, which involves mainly fitness/outdoor pursuits such as running, biking, kayaking, sailing, hiking, yoga etc., or brunch and happy hours with friends (or with a good library book), and plenty of reading.  I also have friends and family out of state who work remotely, so I can travel around and stay with them on workcations where we exercise together in the mornings before work, have lunch together, and then do whatever we want after we're done with our afternoon meetings.  For other travel where I can't work-cation, I have 6 weeks off every year. 

I have no desire to get promoted to a point that risks my happy, enjoyable days and causes me extra stress or responsibilities or too much interaction with senior leadership or endless meetings.  I also can avoid a lot of silly stuff that goes along with leadership positions, such as on-site meetings, having to maintain an extra wardrobe that is purely non-utilitarian, work travel, caring about the org chart, pretending to pay attention in town hall meetings, hiring new team members, and the horrid process of doing annual evaluations on team members. 

When I starting working from home full time over a decade ago, I almost immediately lost the sense of urgency around early retirement and any lingering ambition soon followed, because I got rid of nearly all of the aspects of work that I dislike.  Now even though I am FI, I enjoy the security of a steady financial stream and health insurance and a job that doesn't interfere with the rest of my life.  I do sometimes look around at people I know who have risen to VP and senior director level roles and feel a twinge of envy or ego or something wondering what it would be like, but I am content to stay where I am, happily stagnating but still providing value to my organization.  When this role ceases to be enjoyable, I may look at moving laterally either within my current org or outside it, but hopefully this is the last job I will ever have.

[thesis]

I love learning, and I finally realized that my job performance drops dramatically when I get bored. Even if the company is good, even if the people are good, the boredom just eats my soul away.

I ultimately decided to shift away from software development into more of an IT generalist position. It will take time, but it will happen.

My work philosophy is heavily borrowed from the ERE sphere. Specialists can earn a great deal of money, but they are sometimes easily phased out, and being a specialist often locks you into one domain of knowledge, which gets old really fast (at least for me). But being a generalist allows you to gain competence in several domains of knowledge, and it dramatically broadens your job opportunities (as well as making your something of a badass)

Being a generalist does sometimes come at the cost of not seeing bigger pay raises, but the pay is already enough to afford me a 50% savings rate. Rushing toward FIRE is great and all, but not if you reach the point of dreading the hours you put in at work. I see becoming a generalist as a way to find excitement in work again. I also think that the pay raises will eventually happen since I'm actually excited about computers again, and am pretty determined to make this happen.

[former player]

When I was working I was essentially at the level of "expert adviser" for 20 years.  Next level up would have been management and I never went there: not my skillset and not enough extra money to offset the extra stress.  It wasn't known as career stagnation, it was known as a career plateau - I could change subject matter and departments to learn new things, work with new people, while at the same level in the hierarchy.  It suited me beautifully, I had good times and did interesting work, and on the couple of occasions where I had poor managers I could just move on to something new (or in one case get the manager moved on).

Perhaps instead of telling yourself you are stagnating in a swamp you could tell yourself you are sunning yourself on a plateau, taking time to smell the roses and enjoy the view.   You are gathering layers of institutional knowledge that make you valuable to your organisation and to the people you work with.  You know all the tips and tricks that make your workplace efficient and effective and a good place to be for both employees and clients.  You can help new people to settle in happily and have your ear to the ground for job opportunities for people who want to move on.  You can take on a union role and negotiate for better conditions and support fellow workers who are in trouble.  You can do all of that within your contracted hours and leave at the end of the day unstressed and with the physical and mental capacity to make the most of your non-working hours.

Welcome to the career plateau.

[marcus_aurelius]

Fantastic thread.

I'm 49, and until now, I've always aimed for growth, even if it meant high stress and less stability (as a result of working in startups). But I was recently laid off as a marketing VP and for the first time ever, I am weighing what to do now. Luckily, financially I'm in a good place. I can get a director-level role at a mid-sized company and coast for a few years, or change fields and learn something new but at a lower salary, or do the same thing all over again. I haven't found my answer yet. I do know that the hustle gets old after a few years.

Whatever you decide, I wish you all the best.

[bryan995]

Getting close ... but still in search of my "peter position".  Once I arrive I plan to slack off until I am forced into retirement :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

"The Peter principle is a concept in management developed by Laurence J. Peter, which observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to "a level of respective incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.[1]"

[jade]

Technically I never got to the point of climbing at all - and highly recommend it. In 2012 I figured out that by keeping my expenses low I could just take super chill clerical/reception jobs where I hardly have to do any work, and still save 2/3 of my income. I've been doing that ever since. I'm right on the cusp of early retirement now. Never had any interest in having a career.

I'm going through a job related existential crisis at the moment (just laid off), and this comment of yours is hitting home in all sorts of ways. I'll be spending some time on your blog in the coming days ;)

Slackers of MMM unite!

LOVE this too! 👍 A lot of wisdom in this.

[FLBiker]

Getting close ... but still in search of my "peter position".  Once I arrive I plan to slack off until I am forced into retirement :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

"The Peter principle is a concept in management developed by Laurence J. Peter, which observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to "a level of respective incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.[1]"

I think that's a good approach, but that isn't how it's worked for me.  I've found that my limit tends to be when I look at my boss and decide "that job sucks".  That has been the case in my last two positions -- I like where I am, but I have no interest ( and actively turn down) going any higher.

[Healthie]

Grateful for all the responses! I suspect this is part of growing up - growing wiser?

I find I am not motivated in my current position and it feels a bit 'blah'. I have been in my role for 8 months and have only formed a couple good working relationships, but I do not relate to much of my work place colleagues. I put effort into creating a good working environment, nothing wrong with my colleagues, but I don't think it's my cup of tea. I was working in a similar field with significantly more resources, and it has been a consistent downward trend on what I expect from my employer. Every couple of months I go through a period of dread because of the work and I don't want this sort of working condition any more. I have another position I've asked about that looks interesting, so fingers crossed I can go there.