Author Topic: Job Offer Negotiation/Commute Considerations  (Read 1248 times)

netloc

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Job Offer Negotiation/Commute Considerations
« on: September 02, 2021, 09:03:46 AM »
Background:
I went to an interview a little over three weeks ago. The application required me to enter an expected salary, so I put a modest increase over what I make now. I got an interview and it went super well. I really hit it off with the hiring manager and there was not a rigid structure to the conversation so I ended up being on site for much longer than is typical. It turned out we had some mutual acquaintances and I felt very comfortable there. I did the usual next day follow-up email and he replied to that positively.

I was told I would hear back within two weeks, but didn't. Yesterday was three weeks so I just sent a simple email reiterating my interest and asking if I was still under consideration for the role. He replied within a few hours -- he started the email by saying, "I am going to be blunt. I wanted to offer you the job on the spot." He then explained that because I don't quite have 5 years of experience* their strict HR definitions would indicate he can only offer me the max salary for an entry level position (which is anyone <5 years experience). The max for entry level, which he told me, is bit less than what I make now. He then apologized for the delay and said he's still battling with HR to get a fair offer on the table. He ended with a line about being transparent, but more so with me because he believes I bring great potential to his team.

*Including my internships, I'm at ~4.5 years. I recall when I was looking for my first job a company lowballed me and said "besides your internship experience, you don't have any experience, so..." Well, yeah, if you discount my experience I don't have experience. Duh. Do companies just not count internships as experience? Isn't that the whole point of them?

His comments made me feel good about myself, but they were not really what I wanted to hear.

Questions:
1. I seem to be in good position as far as the hiring manager really wanting me on his team. I want to reply to his email but I'm not sure how much I should say. I could just thank him for the transparency and ask to be kept in the loop. Maybe a strong offer is coming.

Or I could make suggestions. Would it be too forward to request something like an agreed upon promotion/raise once I hit five years experience? According to his response that technicality seems to be the hang-up. I'd be willing to work for less for a few months if there was a signed agreement detailing the promotion and raise ahead of time. What I am unwilling to do at this point is start a new job at less than I'm making now and "restart" my timer with a new company and end up waiting another 3-4 years to get a promotion. I've put in my time at my current company and getting the new job is supposed to be the promotion. Obviously, he knows this, and would expect me to perform well above entry level expectations.

Alternatively, and this seems a little bit too silly to suggest, could I just say: if I'm your guy and the five years is a hard rule, lets just wait for six months and then you can hire me when I meet the criteria. I don't hate my current job so I'm not extremely desperate to leave it and could easily wait. But this suggestion doesn't really feel right to me.

Also note: the job posting suggests they want candidates with 5 years of experience, so I don't think the issue is with the budget for the position; I think it's specifically that I don't check the 5 years box. Plus, they knew what I had requested and still interviewed me, so...

2. The local HR rep was not on site at the time of my interview, so I did not get to meet with them. Because of this, I don't really have a solid grasp of the benefits package. I would like to have the higher salary of a level 2 position, but I could potentially be enticed by a few extra weeks vacation, scheduled WFH days (not the kind of job that could be completely remote)... are there any other common sweeteners that people ask for? And does it make sense at this point to put those on the table?

3. This one is kind of a change of gears. A major consideration for this job is it would reduce my commute from ~30 miles to ~10. My current commute is not stressful at all. Light traffic and mostly non-highway. But it's still lots of miles and lots of time.
Music, phone calls and podcasts are nice, but I could definitely put my time to better use. Using the IRS reimbursement rate, I would spend $6000/year less on car stuff at the new job. If I use MMM's calculation which considers the time then it's something more like $15k.* Of course, MMM would say to bike the 10 miles which would boost those numbers even more. I may consider that (but would increase to ~13 miles to avoid a small section of highway).

*I do have some "side hustle" ideas but also some potential creative pursuits that are just as likely to chew up that extra time.

Anyway, I live in a LCOL area, so $6k is a decent portion of my salary -- I've never gotten a raise anywhere close to that much. So I'm looking for some feedback from others on how slashing the commute has impacted them. I can't tell if I'm under- or overvaluing this factor. Maybe I should be salivating at receiving a max entry-level salary, maybe I should turn down anything less than an offer that's commensurate with my experience. Any help on weighing this factor against the others would be appreciated.

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Lots of jumbled thoughts at this point, but I'd like to get back to the manager in a timely manner. Any advice on any of these items would be greatly appreciated. I'm happy to field any questions.

plog

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Re: Job Offer Negotiation/Commute Considerations
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2021, 01:26:46 PM »
1.  Yes reply.  Iterate your interest, thank him for fighting for a better offer. Do not backtrack on salary expectations or offer any compromises.  You are not dealing with people at this point (other than your future manager), you are dealing with an inflexible, unthinking beuaracracy.  They have checkboxes to mark, lines to color within, lanes to follow.  There's no compromise you can offer because theres no "Compromise Standard Operating Procedure" section in the HR manual they must follow.  However, there exists a person somewhere who can override these inflexible rules and allow you the salary you deserve, but its going to take time to reach their desk.

2. Wait for an offer or other feedback to discuss other benefits.  It is perfectly acceptable at that point to make those part of the deal and yours are perfectly reasonable. You may also ask for a sign-on bonus for any lost bonus from your current company.  Like a quarterly bonus you will lose by leaving before October 1, or stock options that vest on January 1, etc.

3. I think commute is best communicated in time, not distance;  10 miles in Kansas isn't 10 miles in California.  With that said--this is really on you--how much do you hate commuting?  I will not even listen to an offer that is longer than 8 miles from my house.     

Lastly, accept no handshake/behind-HR's-back deals from your future manager.  Like, a promise of a 20% raise/bonus when you reach 1 year or extra vacation days off the books.  He sounds like a good guy, but he may not have the power to actualy enact them when the time comes, or he may not be there. 

netloc

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Re: Job Offer Negotiation/Commute Considerations
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2021, 06:28:42 AM »
1.  Yes reply.  Iterate your interest, thank him for fighting for a better offer. Do not backtrack on salary expectations or offer any compromises.  You are not dealing with people at this point (other than your future manager), you are dealing with an inflexible, unthinking beuaracracy.  They have checkboxes to mark, lines to color within, lanes to follow.  There's no compromise you can offer because theres no "Compromise Standard Operating Procedure" section in the HR manual they must follow.  However, there exists a person somewhere who can override these inflexible rules and allow you the salary you deserve, but its going to take time to reach their desk.

2. Wait for an offer or other feedback to discuss other benefits.  It is perfectly acceptable at that point to make those part of the deal and yours are perfectly reasonable. You may also ask for a sign-on bonus for any lost bonus from your current company.  Like a quarterly bonus you will lose by leaving before October 1, or stock options that vest on January 1, etc.

3. I think commute is best communicated in time, not distance;  10 miles in Kansas isn't 10 miles in California.  With that said--this is really on you--how much do you hate commuting?  I will not even listen to an offer that is longer than 8 miles from my house.     

Lastly, accept no handshake/behind-HR's-back deals from your future manager.  Like, a promise of a 20% raise/bonus when you reach 1 year or extra vacation days off the books.  He sounds like a good guy, but he may not have the power to actualy enact them when the time comes, or he may not be there.

Thanks for the reply. I agree -- no handshake deals.

I will just keep my response to him short and simple and make sure the door stays open for now.

Regarding commute: I'd be saving ~250 hours/year, pretty rural area so not much traffic. I've never had a short commute so I'm not sure how much relief a shorter one would bring. I anticipate it having a large impact because it would give me back basically an hour each day.

bryan995

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Re: Job Offer Negotiation/Commute Considerations
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2021, 07:43:33 AM »
The years of experience is just a guideline. You don’t magically become a better employee when you move from 4.5 years experience to 5 years experience. So I’d push back on that. They seem to be fishing for an excuse to save on their budget. Just say you are a quick learner :)

You should also be applying and interviewing elsewhere to have leverage. You should be able to get the higher level role and higher salary. I wouldn’t settle, I’d keep looking. To me it is a bit of a red flag to see the push back so early in - will they end up delaying future growth? Have you considered even relocating to a MCOL/HCOL area for work? 

And next time an application asks for expected salary, just put $1. Then always have an ballpark idea (Glassdoor) or even competing offers to know your true worth! I always force HR provide the first number, or better yet if I already have a competing offer I just share that.

Regarding the commute etc, cash is king. I’d keep all of those fringe benefits as icing on the cake. Aim to make ~20% more in salary and obtain a higher level with much make growth potential to justify the move. Though IMO, when starting out, it’s often best to value growth potential above all else. Good luck!

Rdy2Fire

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Re: Job Offer Negotiation/Commute Considerations
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2021, 07:47:45 AM »
1.  Yes reply.  Iterate your interest, thank him for fighting for a better offer. Do not backtrack on salary expectations or offer any compromises.  You are not dealing with people at this point (other than your future manager), you are dealing with an inflexible, unthinking beuaracracy.  They have checkboxes to mark, lines to color within, lanes to follow.  There's no compromise you can offer because theres no "Compromise Standard Operating Procedure" section in the HR manual they must follow.  However, there exists a person somewhere who can override these inflexible rules and allow you the salary you deserve, but its going to take time to reach their desk.

2. Wait for an offer or other feedback to discuss other benefits.  It is perfectly acceptable at that point to make those part of the deal and yours are perfectly reasonable. You may also ask for a sign-on bonus for any lost bonus from your current company.  Like a quarterly bonus you will lose by leaving before October 1, or stock options that vest on January 1, etc.

3. I think commute is best communicated in time, not distance;  10 miles in Kansas isn't 10 miles in California.  With that said--this is really on you--how much do you hate commuting?  I will not even listen to an offer that is longer than 8 miles from my house.     

Lastly, accept no handshake/behind-HR's-back deals from your future manager.  Like, a promise of a 20% raise/bonus when you reach 1 year or extra vacation days off the books.  He sounds like a good guy, but he may not have the power to actualy enact them when the time comes, or he may not be there.

I totally, 100%, agree with this ^^ ESPECIALLY since you say you don't hate your job so there is no reason or need to jump to something if you're not getting what you really want.

netloc

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Re: Job Offer Negotiation/Commute Considerations
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2021, 08:57:09 AM »
The years of experience is just a guideline. You don’t magically become a better employee when you move from 4.5 years experience to 5 years experience. So I’d push back on that. They seem to be fishing for an excuse to save on their budget. Just say you are a quick learner :)

You should also be applying and interviewing elsewhere to have leverage. You should be able to get the higher level role and higher salary. I wouldn’t settle, I’d keep looking. To me it is a bit of a red flag to see the push back so early in - will they end up delaying future growth? Have you considered even relocating to a MCOL/HCOL area for work? 

And next time an application asks for expected salary, just put $1. Then always have an ballpark idea (Glassdoor) or even competing offers to know your true worth! I always force HR provide the first number, or better yet if I already have a competing offer I just share that.

Regarding the commute etc, cash is king. I’d keep all of those fringe benefits as icing on the cake. Aim to make ~20% more in salary and obtain a higher level with much make growth potential to justify the move. Though IMO, when starting out, it’s often best to value growth potential above all else. Good luck!

Oh yeah. The years of experience is definitely just a guide. And he knows that too, just as HR does. I'm obviously going to be expected to perform well above an entry level candidate. I don't think I need to do anything else to sell my skills based on his comments. It's on him to make a compelling pitch to his superiors/HR.

As I said, the job posting referenced 5 years, so they should have the budget for someone with 5 years. Also, if I asked for too much I wouldn't have gotten an interview at all. So it does just appear to be HR trying to save a buck. The tone of his email suggests he actually is pushing for them to give in. And while he did tell me the max entry level salary, no offer has been made yet.

Regarding other opportunities/moving, I unfortunately haven't made many attempts. We have talked about moving but we want to stay in this community once we are FI (~10-12 years away) and have some pretty strong ties already. My wife has two non-brick-and-mortar businesses that rely on word of mouth (which she plans to do even once we're FI), and we are very involved with another that has a storefront. Also many family and friends that are local. So far, those things have outweighed any financial benefits of moving for work, even though all those moneymaking ventures produce far less than my regular job. Because we are so rural, jobs that suit me and are close by are rare, hence why this one is of such interest. Otherwise my commute now is fairly typical.

Is the benefit of a competing offer worth the hassle of applying and interviewing for jobs that I'm not as interested in? I guess one could surprise me and make me an offer I can't refuse.

I do see this new role as having more growth potential than where I'm at now. Current company's leadership is not strong and I've twice been blocked from making lateral moves because my manager doesn't want to lose me. Almost all positions above me are filled by what I would call "lifers." I plan on being FI before they plan on retiring. That's a separate issue, but again, I don't dislike my job. It's pretty comfy, just unengaging. But if it comes to it I can slug out another decade or so.

I replied with three sentences, thanking him for his transparency, thanking him for his efforts to get a fair offer on the table, and reiterating my interest.

lutorm

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Re: Job Offer Negotiation/Commute Considerations
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2021, 09:21:12 PM »
It depends on what kind of company and job it is, but if there is equity on the table, too, it might be possible to negotiate that against salary. Equity is often cheaper for the company, and more risky for you, so it depends on how you value salary now for future payoffs. It doesn't sound like that's applicable here, though.