Japan vs US?

[oldtoyota]

We've been watching Japanese anime. I know that's not a great indicator of life in Japan! Go ahead and make fun of me. LOL.

I did notice in these movies that the characters hang their laundry on their balconies. Of course, I approve of this. I assumed these were lower income earners. Later, I was reading an article about Japan--not an anime movie!--and read that it's common in Japan to hang laundry out to dry. It seems like hanging out laundry is still considered "weird" or "low class" in the US.

In another thread, someone asked about buying beds, and I started to think about Japanese futons. For many years, my only bed was a futon on the floor. This was comfortable to me, and I wondered why I do not just do that now? My bed is rickety and it's hard to find good furniture that doesn't fall apart.

All of these led me to wonder if there are other examples of Japanese life that might be less consumerist than the American life? Or, am I just making too much of the above two examples? I have little experience with Japanese culture.

[BFGirl]

I don't know about Japanese life, but I love anime :)

[CarDude]

They drive smaller cars in Japan, on average, than in the US, although I'm pretty sure this is due to societal regulation (which is a good thing), and not from a cultural desire to drive smaller vehicles.

[Exflyboy]

Growing up in the UK we never had a dryer.. Everybody had a clothes line.

Frank

[JENRETIRE]

I think hanging out laundry is pretty regional in the US. I live in the Midwest and it's very common to hang out laundry (at least in nicer weather). Most people I know do it, and most are middle to upper middle class. 

[YK-Phil]

I really enjoy Yokohama Kaidashi Kikō. It looks a bit childish at first, but when you scratch the surface, it gives you a deeper understanding of the Japanese psyche.

My wife is Japanese, and like most of her Japanese friends living in Canada, she is one of the most mustachian person I ever met. I don't think she used the dryer once since I know her. This goes for re-using, recycling, and repurposing almost everything we use. I don't know whether this is a normal way for Japanese living in Japan, in fact I would suspect it is not due to the impacts of post-WWII consumerism, but for most Japanese living abroad and at least those we know who have left Japan to escape the daily grind of the salaryman's life and live a simpler life, it seems to be the case.

[Jamesqf]

I did notice in these movies that the characters hang their laundry on their balconies. Of course, I approve of this. I assumed these were lower income earners. Later, I was reading an article about Japan--not an anime movie!--and read that it's common in Japan to hang laundry out to dry. It seems like hanging out laundry is still considered "weird" or "low class" in the US.

Even in the US, I think it depends on where you live, and how you grew up.  To lots of people who grew up in rural areas, for instance, line-drying is normal.  Likewise in the rest of the world, I think hanging it out to dry tends to be the norm, even in very wealthy areas where the servants are the ones to do the hanging :-)

One thing I liked when I lived in Switzerland (wealthy area on Lake Geneva) were the laundry lines that worked sort of like sun umbrellas.  Most of the time it's just a pole: want to hang out the laundry, you just turn a crank and the lines spread out.

[Kriegsspiel]

The thread title made me think there was going to be a mention of a Celebrity Deathmatch style cagefight referenced in here somewhere.

The first paragraph led me on even more.

Then you ruined it. HOW DARE YOU?

[vern]

Six thousand dollar watermelons!

Never mind.

[johnintaiwan]

In Taiwan that is what you do. i dont know of anyone with a dryer. I think the laundromats have them. It doesnt make sense because you have balcony space and typicaly dont have a lot of space in your apartment/house for a big dryer. It was a pain when I first moved here sine I was used to using a dryer, but you get used to it pretty quick. Winter sometimes take a while to dry, but only 2-3 days. summer they are almost dry before you hang them up.

[limeandpepper]

It's not just Japan... most Asians in general use clotheslines instead of dryers... even the richer people are more likely to have a maid who hangs the clothes out for them rather than having a dryer. ;)

[Daisy]

I am no expert on Japanese culture, but I do notice they save money on electricity by not cooking their fish. ;-)

About the no dryer thing...I do this a lot but it doesn't seem to work well with towels as they dry kind of crusty-ish. I only use the dryer now to dry my towels and linens (too big to hang).

[zolotiyeruki]

I took a few business trips over there a few years back.  Private car use is a lot lower than the US, but that's primarily enabled by a very high population density and a good public transit system (neither of which are gonna happen in the US).  Since Japanese families typically live in much smaller homes in the US, they're pretty good about avoiding the accumulation of clutter.

[DollarBill]

I lived in Okinawa for two years and it's crazy expensive. I think they are way more Mustachian than the US due to their survival skills. They are a very efficient culture. I have many thing I could share but it would be a big ramble. I think most other cultures are this way...it's finally starting to catch on here. 

[worms]

All of these led me to wonder if there are other examples of Japanese life that might be less consumerist than the American life?

At the risk of being flamed, tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail...

I think you could cite anywhere else on earth and it will, in general, be "less consumerist than the American life"!  ...but we are all doing our damndest to catch up!

[Daleth]

It's not just Japan... most Asians in general use clotheslines instead of dryers... even the richer people are more likely to have a maid who hangs the clothes out for them rather than having a dryer. ;)

I have Chinese tenants who strung up a clothesline in the basement next to the dryer. :)

[destron]

I lived in Japan for a few years. Clothes dryers are practically non-existent. Everyone line dries.

They drive smaller cars in Japan, on average, than in the US, although I'm pretty sure this is due to societal regulation (which is a good thing), and not from a cultural desire to drive smaller vehicles.

They have higher races on cars over a certain size, but gas is also very expensive.  In the city there is nowhere to park, so those Japanese that do own cars use them more for excursions. The vehicles themselves are, surprisingly, cheaper than the US. I would argue that, rather than the Japanese having a cultural desire to drive small cars, Americans have a cultural desire to drive large cars.

[bobmarley9993]

Yes and no on Japan being more MMM.   In addition to the things already mentioned, houses/apartments tend to be much smaller, mass transit more widely available (just due to greater percentage of population being in densely populated areas + skytrains), smaller meal sizes, AC is used but set at temps way higher than in US.   However, my experience is Japanese people very much still like their stuff, it's just more focused on cars/electronics/clothers, basically personal items.  Cars it's less "big" cars and more just nice cars.   Just my somewhat limited experience.

[oldtoyota]

Six thousand dollar watermelons!

Never mind.

What?!

[oldtoyota]

Thanks, all. This is interesting. The fact that line drying clothing is done even by the wealthy surprises me a little. In the US, it's looked down upon in some areas, and some HOAs forbid it!

[Hedge_87]

Thanks, all. This is interesting. The fact that line drying clothing is done even by the wealthy surprises me a little. In the US, it's looked down upon in some areas, and some HOAs forbid it!

This is why I will never live in a HOA. I Don't play nice with others especially when they try and tell me how to live my life.

[DollarBill]

Here's some more things I found out living there:
-Timers on hot water heaters, cut off during peak hrs
-Don't eat a lot of meat (unlike in the US it's our main course)
-Usually have small sit down bath tubs and cut off the water when they wash
-Don't have dish washers
-If they have clothes washers then it's half the size of ours
-Most kitchens don't have an oven but may have a fish cooking slot
-Sleep on futons and roll them up in the morning to have more space
-Kids live longer with their parents and my have grand parent staying in one small house
-I liked the fact on Sundays the school kids would clean the school and around the town (think that would fly in the US?)
-Most don't have a living room, they mostly have tatami room witch is a sitting room
-I had like 4 trash cans for recycling: Wet trash, plastics (but the label had to be removed and the cap goes into a different bag), paper, metal. Any card board had to be flattened and tied with a string. Plus, you have to buy the City's trash bags because they were clear but it had to have the correct markings
-At the market all of the fish was sushi grade, they even had sample for you on tooth picks...try that in the US
-A lot of liquid items sold in stores are pouches instead of jugs
-Their vehicles had funny names like: The Nissin Cube is called the Naked, other ones that stand out Surf (4Runner), Move (Didn't like those because they were slow), Zest, latte, fuga.
-Sushi  is like their fast food and it's not expensive. I really miss that part.
-They don't care much for the beach and if you do see them there they cover up with long sleeves w/ gloves and granny hats. I was told that society views the lighter skin more attractive (Don't know if that's too)
-It's crazy expensive to be caught drinking and driving (about $10K and $6K for any passengers)
-They have outside soda machines everywhere, they also sell hot coffees in them (it's funny to see them in the sugar cane fields)

 

[randymarsh]

-Timers on hot water heaters, cut off during peak hrs

My house has this. Never used it. Too inconvenient. I'm American and I want my hot Freedom Liquid now.

[Latwell]

I work for a Chinese family.

@dollarbill - they do find lighter skin to be more attractive. The mom of the family doesn't like her kids going to the town pool because they keep getting so tan in the summer haha. It's funny and weird.


I love learning little differences between Asian cultures and our own. The mom is always telling me stuff about where she came from. She lived in an area where if you wanted to go to high school, you had to go to the city and most people couldn't because they couldn't afford to travel there.

She thought it was so fascinating that I had a dryer (I no longer have it though). She explained to me how she use to use a wash board to scrub their clothes.

Idk if this common, but the whole family has one dish for each person (1 spoon, 1 bowl, 1 pair of chopsticks). I don't think I've ever seen them use a plate. I'm pretty sure in America, most families have wayyyyyy more dishes than they'll even need.

The mom told me she doesn't even like red meat. It makes her stomachs hurt (this isn't the first time I've heard about people who would try to eat red meat after a long time of not having and they would feel sick).

The portions are definitely different too and being forced to eat. I remember growing up and my parents yelling at me to finish everything on my plate. So instead of finishing it, I would feed to to my dog under the table. Even as an adult, there are a lot of people who get upset when you don't finish your oversized plate. My SO even yelled at me bc. I would make our portions to big (I've been working on making food better sized).

Because Asian's cram into small apartments, they've become very creative. I love the idea of having a space that is cozy and small. I don't need so much extra space and I'd rather make the best use of the space I have. If you ever have extra time, look at images of tiny apartments or search Asian apartments. Very cool stuff.

In America, god forbid we share a bathroom with someone else in our household. We have to have one bathroom for each person plus another half bath. Some Asian apartments don't event have bathrooms. Instead, there will be a bathroom outside of the apartment for all of the tenants to use.

[DollarBill]

I work for a Chinese family.

@dollarbill - they do find lighter skin to be more attractive. The mom of the family doesn't like her kids going to the town pool because they keep getting so tan in the summer haha. It's funny and weird.


I love learning little differences between Asian cultures and our own. The mom is always telling me stuff about where she came from. She lived in an area where if you wanted to go to high school, you had to go to the city and most people couldn't because they couldn't afford to travel there.

She thought it was so fascinating that I had a dryer (I no longer have it though). She explained to me how she use to use a wash board to scrub their clothes.

Idk if this common, but the whole family has one dish for each person (1 spoon, 1 bowl, 1 pair of chopsticks). I don't think I've ever seen them use a plate. I'm pretty sure in America, most families have wayyyyyy more dishes than they'll even need.

The mom told me she doesn't even like red meat. It makes her stomachs hurt (this isn't the first time I've heard about people who would try to eat red meat after a long time of not having and they would feel sick).

The portions are definitely different too and being forced to eat. I remember growing up and my parents yelling at me to finish everything on my plate. So instead of finishing it, I would feed to to my dog under the table. Even as an adult, there are a lot of people who get upset when you don't finish your oversized plate. My SO even yelled at me bc. I would make our portions to big (I've been working on making food better sized).

Because Asian's cram into small apartments, they've become very creative. I love the idea of having a space that is cozy and small. I don't need so much extra space and I'd rather make the best use of the space I have. If you ever have extra time, look at images of tiny apartments or search Asian apartments. Very cool stuff.

In America, god forbid we share a bathroom with someone else in our household. We have to have one bathroom for each person plus another half bath. Some Asian apartments don't event have bathrooms. Instead, there will be a bathroom outside of the apartment for all of the tenants to use.

It is funny and weird because we do the exact opposite here, we all want to be tan. I got to learn a lot over there because I brought over both my dogs and I didn't have an option to stay on base because I wasn't married. Most Americans stayed on the sea wall but none of those had a yard. So I choose a house about 25-30mins away in Yomitan. So glad I did there were no Americans were I lived, I had a 5 min walk to a seclusive beach that belonged to a hotel but they didn't use. I would go almost every day to let my dogs run and play in the water. The other people on the sea wall were in apartments, one car spot and no beach and I was in a two story (3 bed, 2 1/2 bath) all Americanized, yard, 4 car spots. I got to know my neighbors well because when I went deep sea fishing I would bring them a couple of tuna's or Bonita's. They would invite me in and make sushi and offer sake. One of my neighbors was a famous artist Minoru Kinjo. The funny thing was he was an activist against military on Okinawa. I didn't think he would like me but after I brought him fish he invited me in and his wife cook amazing dishes and we drank sake and he loved to talk about American politics. He even gave me some of his work when I left.
     

[CarDude]

-It's crazy expensive to be caught drinking and driving (about $10K and $6K for any passengers)

Imagine how much lower our drunk driving rates would be if we actually had and enforced policies like these.

[Villanelle]

Pretty much everyone in Japan hangs laundry out.  And because they often have no yards, it isn't just hung in the privacy of the backyard.  It is hung on balconies, outside the front door, or anywhere there is access to the outdoors.  I lived in basically a row house style 4 plex.  No back yards at all, and the fronts just had sliding glass doors onto the sidewalk that ran in front of all the house.  So that's where laundry was hung.  No need to wonder "boxers or briefs" about your neighbors, as you see the answer flapping in the breeze! 

Also, smaller house and very little closet space mean people clothes shop for quality, not quantity. 

Appliances are smaller and as such use less energy.  Also, most homes I was in had no central heat or A/C.  Instead, they had built in wall units in each large room, so you could heat and cool only the rooms you were using.   And for the bathroom, which was literally sometimes freezing due to the lack of heat, you had the heated toilet seats. 

They definitely drive cars less (and drive much smaller cars), but while that's good ecologically, the trains are costly so I'm not sure it actually saves money.

[MayDay]

My sister lives near Mexico City, and has a maid come in three days a week (for something crazy cheap like 12$ a day).  The maid does all the laundry, hangs it to dry as there is no dryer, and then irons it all afterwards so it isn't wrinkly and stiff. 

I hang dry almost everything but I dry H's work clothes, towels, and enough socks to fill up the load.  I hate ironing.  It is well worth having a dryer just so I don't have to iron work clothes. 

They do sell the umbrella clothes lines here in the US.  I bought one on amazon.  Love it. 

[johnintaiwan]

All of these things make living in Taiwan very cheap without even trying. i dont have to force myself to be very frugal, I dont really have any other option, that is just how things are done here. Sure you could live a very western life if you wanted to here, but the time and energy to go and source all of those "conveniences" and living in a western area of the country, not to mention the cost!. Compared to salaries it is probably 1.5-2X more expensive to live a typical western style life here. Much more than that if you want the typical big home.

I am a pretty lazy guy and making frugal living choices would be much more difficult in the US if I was going against the tide. But here since everyone lives like that and it is normal it is much easier to just go with the flow. The weird thing is that you get used to it. The only things i miss from my old life are my family and friends and my guns. It will take some getting used to if I ever move back to the US

[dungoofed]

I remember first reading the MMM site thinking "ok this doesn't apply to me here in Japan.... yes, this also doesn't apply to me..." etc.

The obvious ones of course are the "no cars due to awesome public transport" and lack of clothes driers/dishwashers/etc. One more I have found is that you just have less time to spend money here - after a 10-14 hour day, drinks with workmates, weekend work, etc often it is an effort to think of ways to spend more money.

On a cultural note, Japan is divided with regards to its attitude towards frugality ("setsuyaku"). On the one hand it has a bad reputation, a strong association with "cheap" and "poor" (not to mention that it is the kind of thing one is forced to do during a war) and many people don't want to have anything to do with it. On the other hand, there have been reality TV shows about frugality here, people meticulously fill out their "kakeibo" (budgeting notebook, often as an app these days. Think YNAB), etc so there exists at least a bit of a movement here.

There are also a few cultural reasons Japanese do not make good Mustachians. The first one that comes to mind is how, when leaving a restaurant, it is custom to leave some food and drink behind unconsumed. If a dish of food gets eaten down to the last then another one must be ordered, according to custom. The signal to leave the restaurant is that everyone has half a glass of beer remaining and there are about five dishes on the table each with one or two pieces of food remaining on them lol.

While we're doing a comparison, at least in the West people have a clue about investing. In Japan, it's either "JGBs 100%," or "JGBs 90%, AUD carry trade 10%" lol. Maybe that will change with Abenomics/low bond yields/higher stock prices due to increased money supply/NISA/etc but so far the takeup has been slow.

The hardest thing about being a Mustachian in Japan (Tokyo) would have to be the choice of restaurants and delicious foods.

[Left]

I didn't like hanging clothes up in Taiwan. Mostlly because it came out "stiff" and took longer than I liked. I found that I cheated and used the hair dryer to dry it when it was still a bit damp if I came home and it wasn't completely dry. The "washer/dryer" combo didn't really dry. Might be that I didn't use it correctly, I can't read mandarin... but it might be made to get excessive water out then expected to hang clothes?

I also expect that Japan's lower car usage is due to cost of parking it too. In Taiwan the parking space cost almost as much as rent in Taipei.

I know not much Japan but I saw Taiwan brought up in thread :D

[johnintaiwan]

Eyem, always nice to see someone else on here with experience in TW. I feel like none of my Expat friends here (or even my TW friends) have thought about the future at all and spend their checks every month instead of taking advantage of the low cost of living and the fact that we make a LOT more than the average person here.

[Left]

yes but why would you expect them to live frugally with a lower COL? Look around the world at people earning $100k+, $1m+, etc... regardless of amount and COL, they'll always find something to spend it on because that's how the culture is set up. Taiwan isn't really less consumeristic than the US imo, just "cheaper". Not much different than someone moving from NY to midwest US and still not being able to save money.

But it's this thing that also makes me disagree that Japan/Asia is more mustachian... They have things like hanging clothes/walking more/etc but they aren't less consumeristic than the US. They just spend money differently. If not on drying clothes, they spend it on buying American donuts... yes I saw dunkin donuts/starbucks there being popular and the local versions tasted better but people bought "american" brand

edit: saw the post about japanese being frugal in canada. Well, yes but if you look at 1930s depression-era americans, they were frugal as well. not saying that they were raised in a depression in japan but well... they did recently have their decade of depression in the 1990s...

[vern]

Six thousand dollar watermelons!

Never mind.

What?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon

"The 'Densuke' watermelon has round fruit up to 25 lb (11 kg). The rind is black with no stripes or spots. It is grown only on the island of Hokkaido, Japan, where up to 10,000 watermelons are produced every year. In June 2008, one of the first harvested watermelons was sold at an auction for 650,000 yen (US$ 6,300), making it the most expensive watermelon ever sold. The average selling price is generally around 25,000 yen ($ 250)."

[dungoofed]

Interestingly the dude in this article:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dailydish/2008/06/does-a-densuke.html

who bought the $23K cantaloupes is my former roommate lol.

[Kaminoge]

Chinese tenants who strung up a clothesline in the basement next to the dryer. :)

I'm Australian and I do this. I have a dryer, it's brand new (came with the apartment) but I've never switched it on. Same with the dishwasher. I've lived all over the world in all different climates (Japan, China, UK, Australia and now Bulgaria) and I've never ever felt the need to use a dryer. It would be different if I had huge piles of nappies to wash or something but otherwise dryers really don't even go close to being a necessity.

After 5 years in Tokyo I'd have to say I didn't find Tokyo at all Mustachian. People work ridiculous hours, eat a lot of convenience foods and have horrible work/life balance in many cases which may be frugal but I don't think is at all MMM. Yes they use public transport and small apartments but since those apartments aren't insulated the heating/cooling expenses are very wasteful.

[BFGirl]

I work for a Chinese family.

@dollarbill - they do find lighter skin to be more attractive. The mom of the family doesn't like her kids going to the town pool because they keep getting so tan in the summer haha. It's funny and weird.


I love learning little differences between Asian cultures and our own. The mom is always telling me stuff about where she came from. She lived in an area where if you wanted to go to high school, you had to go to the city and most people couldn't because they couldn't afford to travel there.

She thought it was so fascinating that I had a dryer (I no longer have it though). She explained to me how she use to use a wash board to scrub their clothes.

Idk if this common, but the whole family has one dish for each person (1 spoon, 1 bowl, 1 pair of chopsticks). I don't think I've ever seen them use a plate. I'm pretty sure in America, most families have wayyyyyy more dishes than they'll even need.

The mom told me she doesn't even like red meat. It makes her stomachs hurt (this isn't the first time I've heard about people who would try to eat red meat after a long time of not having and they would feel sick).

The portions are definitely different too and being forced to eat. I remember growing up and my parents yelling at me to finish everything on my plate. So instead of finishing it, I would feed to to my dog under the table. Even as an adult, there are a lot of people who get upset when you don't finish your oversized plate. My SO even yelled at me bc. I would make our portions to big (I've been working on making food better sized).

Because Asian's cram into small apartments, they've become very creative. I love the idea of having a space that is cozy and small. I don't need so much extra space and I'd rather make the best use of the space I have. If you ever have extra time, look at images of tiny apartments or search Asian apartments. Very cool stuff.

In America, god forbid we share a bathroom with someone else in our household. We have to have one bathroom for each person plus another half bath. Some Asian apartments don't event have bathrooms. Instead, there will be a bathroom outside of the apartment for all of the tenants to use.

I went to China 10 years ago with my 2 red headed children.  We were mobbed at every tourist attraction by people wanting to take pictures with my children.  A Japanese tourist even pulled my son off his father's shoulders so he could have his picture taken with my son on his shoulders.  On the first day, my six year old son sat down in the middle of Tiananmen Square, put a hat over his head and said "No more pictures".  His hair is redder than my daughter's, so he got more attention.  My daughter told me on that trip that she didn't want to be a rock star any more.  Our tour guide told us that fair skin and red hair is their ideal of beauty.  It was very interesting and a little scary.

[Icecreamarsenal]

Japanese people are not more mustachian, as a whole. Practicing Buddhists aside, a common tenet among people is to fully enjoy your youth; savings are considered foolish. Housing, as a general rule, DEPRECIATES to close to 0, thanks mostly to fearmlngering architects and government officials (earthquakes). Yes, clothing lines are everywhere, just as in Korea and pretty much everywhere outside the continental us. The exoticism brought on by anime does little to really elucidate Japan to a Westerner.


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