Author Topic: It's a man's world - vent  (Read 7396 times)

Giro

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It's a man's world - vent
« on: May 31, 2018, 10:22:37 AM »
I'm 43 yo and getting ready to call it quits at the end of the year.  When friends/colleagues/family hear about this, I get the same sexist reply about how I will be a stay at home wife/mom.  I have a 12 yo daughter at home.  The comment is never even a question, its a statement from them.  I earned 350k this year in the middle of nowhere, usa.  My husband is a govt employee and retired military. He doesn't earn 1/2 my salary. That is not a slight on him because he is the most amazing man on the planet.  It's just, I want to scream. I know o shouldn't care but I worked my tail off to retire early.  I've been hustling for years to get here.

Any ladies out there feel the same ?

TheAnonOne

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2018, 10:44:44 AM »
Man here-

Why not just tell them your retiring early because XYZ? People call me (and most people) "Just a X" in various aspects of my life and its hard to not just laugh it off.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2018, 10:55:06 AM »
What you're doing probably won't be considered retirement outside this forum. I don't think it has much to do with gender. If you and your husband flipped this scenario, he'd be becoming a stay-at-home dad, at least to most people.

I get that you're just ranting but retiring early really is a rare thing and since most people can't/won't retire early, they'll say whatever fits into their worldview of "oh, you're not working and you're younger than 65? You must be a stay-at-home whatever."

Anyways, your income is awesome, your plan to retire eoy is awesome...just soak up the hate!

Zikoris

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2018, 11:01:56 AM »
I mean - it doesn't seem like an incorrect description of what's going on, does it? I have a male friend who early retired, whose wife works, and he says he retired to be a stay at home dad. I guess I'm not seeing the negative here.

gaja

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2018, 11:10:09 AM »
I understand your frustration. My DH stays at home, and very few people react the way you describe. It gets annoying after a while when you know you constantly have to choose between people thinking there is something wrong with him, or spending energy explaining your choices.

I personally have spent all the fucks I want to spend on this issue, so I currently let people think whatever they want.

Giro

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2018, 12:03:17 PM »
Good points all around.  I guess what really pushed me was when he mentioned to a group of friends that he was following suit in another year and the reactions were "good for you.  You deserve it.  You've worked hard."   Uhhh....

But yea, I need to be done giving any fucks.

saijoe

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2018, 12:52:53 PM »
But yea, I need to be done giving any fucks.

More of this... You deserve to be done.

okits

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2018, 01:06:01 PM »
I agree that there are sexist gender role expectations at play, however, some of the response is likely due to you being the first to retire.  If your spouse was already a SAHP and you retired, the FI aspect would be obvious.

You're not getting acknowledgement for your financial and frugal contributions to your ER status, but it's probably better that way.  People and your relationships with them change when they know you have money.

Congratulations on your upcoming ER!

Lyssa

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2018, 01:22:26 PM »
Friends, family and colleagues know I've been working my ass off. But yes, I fully expect similar reactions from new acquaintances post fire.

Stopping to give any fucks is solid advise but I guess I won't be fully able to take it to heart and probably am going to develop a snarky go-to reply.

In some peoples' heads gender roles are that rock solid that they are upheld not only in the face of but in the teeth of evidence to the contrary. Just look at a recent thread here that was closed because of some PUA/MRA crap. Some guys manage to spend years in a forum about wealth accumulation and financial independence half of whichs participants are female and staching away and yet they their belief in all females of the species looking for a "provider" to latch on and suck dry is completely intact.

haflander

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2018, 01:32:24 PM »
@Lyssa one ?...is it true that half of the people here are female? Due to the #s of engineers and tech types around here and other FI sites saying the community leans heavily male, I assumed the MMM fourms are about 75% (maybe more?) male. Do we have a poll about this? If it's wrong of me to assume that most engineers and techies are male, then I think some quick research would do the trick.

That being said, I agree with you that traditional gender roles should be a thing of the past. Any guy who thinks women are only leeches looking for "providers" is not someone I'd want in my life.

Imma

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2018, 01:41:48 PM »
@Lyssa one ?...is it true that half of the people here are female? Due to the #s of engineers and tech types around here and other FI sites saying the community leans heavily male, I assumed the MMM fourms are about 75% (maybe more?) male. Do we have a poll about this? If it's wrong of me to assume that most engineers and techies are male, then I think some quick research would do the trick.


I think there is a poll somewhere, actually, that confirms the voters in that poll were majority female. 100% of the posters I've been in touch with through PM's has turned out to be female. I am also pretty sure a few of them were the sole or main earner in their family - including myself.

catccc

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2018, 02:04:30 PM »
I see there is a great deal of pride in your move to retirement, and you definitely should be proud, you've earned it!  I will feel the same way when I get there.  But just understand that others may be jealous and will try to bring you down.  Maybe they are being negative about it in a passive-aggressive way.  I personally don't think there is anything negative about being a SAHM, but maybe your "friends" and colleagues that know you aren't crazy about that role and they are trying to get under your skin?

I may find myself using the term SAHM as a bit of a diversion when people ask 'why' when I stop working.  Because I personally know someone that will give me flak for retiring early, like it is wrong because I will only be in my early 40s, like I'm wasting my life by not working.  I don't actually care what she things, but saying I'm a SAHM will diffuse her contention about it and keep her from questioning of my ability or right to retire.  It's just not worth my breath to debate with her about it or need to defend myself.

Just say, "SAHM?  You can call it whatever you want.  I've saved enough to not need to work anymore.  Traditionally that's called retirement, but you go with whatever floats your boat."


BDWW

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2018, 02:09:18 PM »
I find it interesting that issue is taken with the assumption of being a SAHP, but there is no problem assuming a sexist motivation. Especially since one - in my mind - is relatively benign, and the other more a pernicious assumption.

Dollar Slice

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2018, 02:53:09 PM »
Yeah, it's gross. I'm single/childless so I don't get the same flavor of it (SAHM/husband taking care of me) but I've had people ask or assume multiple times that my parents would 'take care of me' in some huge financial way, like buying me a half-million-dollar apartment when I moved to NYC. Including my boss at the time, because you don't have to feel bad about not giving out sufficient COL increases if you assume your employees aren't supporting themselves, I guess.

I doubt anyone ever asked my brother if his parents bought his house for him.

Undecided

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2018, 03:20:13 PM »
Good points all around.  I guess what really pushed me was when he mentioned to a group of friends that he was following suit in another year and the reactions were "good for you.  You deserve it.  You've worked hard."   Uhhh....

But yea, I need to be done giving any fucks.

Is it possible that's got something to do with him being retired military?

socaso

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2018, 03:52:37 PM »
Also a 43 yo professional woman with a child. I think there is big lack of women with school age children in the professional world. I belong to a leads group and am the only woman my age with a child in the group. All the men are around my age and have kids but most of them have SAH-spouses. The other women in my group are about 15-20 years older than me and their kids are grown or they never had any.

Maybe you would feel better if you came up with a positive spin elevator pitch for your situation so that when you hear these things that drive you bonkers you can use that as an opportunity reframe the conversation.

Giro

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2018, 04:12:33 PM »
Thank you so much for the replies.  I'm feeling so much better just reading them.  To answer a few questions/comments.  My spouse and I are about the same age.  I didn't mean to imply that a SAHP is bad thing, but I'm not one and have never been one. 
I'm definitely going to come up with a few witty replies when confronted with these types of responses.  They can be snarky, I'll be on the beach truly not giving a fuck very soon. 


fuzzy math

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2018, 04:23:18 PM »
Enjoy your beach trip!!

I am actually looking forward to saying I'll be a SAHM when the time happens because I donit want to throw my specialty under the bus and have people assume we are over paid. Also, i have been the solo earner for 10+ yrs and I relish the thought of getting that time at home. My oldest will be gone, my middle graduation and I'll have 1 high schooler left. There have been many times I've felt vaguely resentful of not being a SAHM but the numbers just didn't work out for us to switch the roles up.

FireHiker

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2018, 04:39:24 PM »
Female engineer here, who still has bitterness for only earning 78% of what my husband earns, from the same company, with the same degree (earned from the same university). Current supervisor has done a lot to fix some of the past egregiousness, but once you fall far behind, it's hard to ever catch up. So, yeah, sympathy here on the "it's a man's world" vent. But, major congratulations for your accomplishments!!!

use2betrix

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2018, 06:09:40 PM »
Does “retired stay at home mom” sound better? I don’t think the “sahm” definition specifies “why“ the parent doesn’t work. In my experience it simply means that a parent has a school aged child and doesn’t work. You seem to have such a negative connotation towards it. My wife doesn’t work and we don’t even have kids. Sometimes I joke she’s a “stay at home dog-mom.”

Tell them you’re retiring if it bugs you that much, but I honestly think you just seem to have a chip on your shoulder when it really shouldn’t bother you.

Undecided

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2018, 06:42:00 PM »
Female engineer here, who still has bitterness for only earning 78% of what my husband earns, from the same company, with the same degree (earned from the same university). Current supervisor has done a lot to fix some of the past egregiousness, but once you fall far behind, it's hard to ever catch up. So, yeah, sympathy here on the "it's a man's world" vent. But, major congratulations for your accomplishments!!!

Start a competitor, hire other female engineers for 89% of what your employer pays the men, then undercut your current employer.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 07:48:15 PM by Undecided »

katsiki

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2018, 07:31:49 PM »
OP, wow!  That is quite a salary... Do you mind sharing what you do or general field/industry?

Enjoy your retirement and put those folks on your do not call list.  :)

Roland of Gilead

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2018, 08:25:54 PM »
Female engineer here, who still has bitterness for only earning 78% of what my husband earns, from the same company, with the same degree (earned from the same university). Current supervisor has done a lot to fix some of the past egregiousness, but once you fall far behind, it's hard to ever catch up. So, yeah, sympathy here on the "it's a man's world" vent. But, major congratulations for your accomplishments!!!

I actually find this quite shocking but it might just be that some people are better at self promoting, showing off what they have done vs other people who quietly get the work done and don't get all the credit.

I know in software engineering at my wife's company, it was like that, but she was so good she ended up making twice what the other (male) engineers were making.

use2betrix

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2018, 05:26:40 AM »
Female engineer here, who still has bitterness for only earning 78% of what my husband earns, from the same company, with the same degree (earned from the same university). Current supervisor has done a lot to fix some of the past egregiousness, but once you fall far behind, it's hard to ever catch up. So, yeah, sympathy here on the "it's a man's world" vent. But, major congratulations for your accomplishments!!!

I actually find this quite shocking but it might just be that some people are better at self promoting, showing off what they have done vs other people who quietly get the work done and don't get all the credit.

I know in software engineering at my wife's company, it was like that, but she was so good she ended up making twice what the other (male) engineers were making.

I agree 100%. Good luck explaining to someone who feels they were shorted that it might actually be “them.”

I stumbled across this article last weekend when researching salary negotiations.

https://www.themuse.com/advice/how-to-negotiate-salary-37-tips-you-need-to-know

“Here’s a good example: A famous study done by Linda Babcock for her book, Women Don’t Ask: The High Cost of Avoiding Negotiation—and Positive Strategies for Change, revealed that only about 7% of women attempted to negotiate their first salary, while 57% of men did. Of those people who negotiated, they were able to increase their salary by over 7%.”

Thats just one of countless other explanations.

Dicey

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2018, 05:47:28 AM »
PTF

OtherJen

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2018, 07:35:49 AM »
I hear you on the sexist shit.

I say “I’m semi retired, I only work 3 days a week”
They say “oh! You have young kids at home?”
I reply “God no. If I did, I would work 6 days a week and my husband would stay home”
They ask “if you don’t have kids then why do you only work 3 days a week”
Me “because I can”

When I mention that I’m starting a new side business, most people assume it’s an MLM, not a consulting firm for high net worth professionals as a subsidiary of a major finance firm. Nope, they assume that I’m going to hawk costume jewelry or scented oils on Facebook to my friends and family.

Ugh, yes. Last time I met with one of my corporate clients (I’m a freelance tech writer/editor), one of the full-timers, an older man, started in on how it must be so nice not to have to work full time and just let my husband take care of the insurance and heavy lifting. I held my tongue because I wanted the contract (which I got, and they’ve been great), but I remember thinking “Yeah, sure, I’m such a freeloader. I’m the one in the family with the PhD, I’m the higher income earner, and the current situation is in no way unfair after my previous positions covered our health insurance for the last decade.”

The man in question retired suddenly about a month after I started that gig, so I’m assuming there was something else going on that made him come across as a jerk, but who knows? He’s not the only man of a certain age who’s assumed that I’m freeloading off of my husband.

gaja

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2018, 07:36:12 AM »
Female engineer here, who still has bitterness for only earning 78% of what my husband earns, from the same company, with the same degree (earned from the same university). Current supervisor has done a lot to fix some of the past egregiousness, but once you fall far behind, it's hard to ever catch up. So, yeah, sympathy here on the "it's a man's world" vent. But, major congratulations for your accomplishments!!!

I actually find this quite shocking but it might just be that some people are better at self promoting, showing off what they have done vs other people who quietly get the work done and don't get all the credit.

I know in software engineering at my wife's company, it was like that, but she was so good she ended up making twice what the other (male) engineers were making.

I agree 100%. Good luck explaining to someone who feels they were shorted that it might actually be “them.”

I stumbled across this article last weekend when researching salary negotiations.

https://www.themuse.com/advice/how-to-negotiate-salary-37-tips-you-need-to-know

“Here’s a good example: A famous study done by Linda Babcock for her book, Women Don’t Ask: The High Cost of Avoiding Negotiation—and Positive Strategies for Change, revealed that only about 7% of women attempted to negotiate their first salary, while 57% of men did. Of those people who negotiated, they were able to increase their salary by over 7%.”

Thats just one of countless other explanations.

Don't know much about the Babcock research, but it doesn't sound like it is supported by this very large study by McKinsey and LeanIn (222 companies):

"Women remain significantly underrepresented in the corporate pipeline. From the outset, fewer women than men are hired at the entry level. At every subsequent step, the representation of women further declines, and women of color face an even more dramatic drop-off at senior levels. This disparity is not due to company-level attrition or lack of interest: women and men stay at their companies and ask for promotions at similar rates."
https://womenintheworkplace.com/

Here is the same conclusion based on a large study from Australia: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/05/gender-wage-gap-women-pay-raise-men-study

Now, if women ask as often as men, why is there still a gap? This study is interesting:
"In four studies, Bowles and collaborators from Carnegie Mellon found that people penalized women who initiated negotiations for higher compensation more than they did men. The effect held whether they saw the negotiation on video or read about it on paper, whether they viewed it from a disinterested third-party perspective or imagined themselves as senior managers in a corporation evaluating an internal candidate.
[...]
It’s not that men are immune from being seen as tough or unlikeable when they make aggressive demands. Attempting to negotiate can make anyone seem less nice, Bowles repeatedly found. But it’s only women who subsequently suffer a penalty: people report that they would be less inclined to work with them, be it as coworkers, subordinates, or bosses. The effect is especially strong, Bowles has found, when people observe women who engage in salary negotiations. “Money in particular seems to be a hot one,” she says."
https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-the-dangers-for-women-who-negotiate

okits

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2018, 07:55:14 AM »
Thank you, @gaja .  The social disapproval or outright punishment is real for women who try to be assertive (the way a man is expected to be) and are instead perceived as difficult, demanding, selfish, or unlikable. 

StarBright

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2018, 08:17:31 AM »
I am feeling your vent!

I'm in tech and run operations for a specialty engineering firm (but not an engineer), am the primary earner in our family (DH teaches and is amazing!), and family members still suggest side businesses I could get into to "help support my husband" or "keep busy" while the kids are in school. I have worked an average of 60 hours a week since they've known me. I am continually flummoxed by their inability to understand our situation.

Also - my boss referred to me as an admin this morning and I wanted to kill him. I'll suck it up because he pays me well for the job I do and I have amazing flexibility. But it totally undermines me to call me an admin when introducing me to the customer whose project I'm going to run. 

Down with the patriarchy :) !
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 08:19:23 AM by StarBright »

former player

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2018, 08:18:19 AM »
Whenever I come across the Patriarchy in action there is usually something in the (no longer updating, sadly) blog I Blame the Patriarchy which is on point, although as the author is early retired it's not usually directly about work -

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/patriarchy-blaming-the-twisty-way/the-global-accords/

Altons Bobs

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2018, 08:26:38 AM »
No effect on me. People are entitled to their own opinions, and I have no control over that, so I don't let them bother me. They can think what they want.

Years ago we were having lunch with a business associate, and she asked if my husband started the business and when it became successful that he turned it over to me so that I could claim that it was mine. So this was a lady who said that. I didn't say anything since she was entitled to her own opinion, if it made her happy to believe that, I'd just let it be. But my husband jumped in and told her that I started it all by myself from scratch. And she was very surprised.

Tuskalusa

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2018, 08:37:45 AM »
Same experience here. I out earned my husband for years. When I retired, the general feedback I got was that my husband must have a good job. No recognition that I had contributed to this outcome for years. I think this is because people see the world through their own lens, and not many people amass a savings available for retirement by their early 40’s.  But the sexist assumptions are very irritating.

Altons Bobs

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2018, 08:46:49 AM »
Same experience here. I out earned my husband for years. When I retired, the general feedback I got was that my husband must have a good job. No recognition that I had contributed to this outcome for years. I think this is because people see the world through their own lens, and not many people amass a savings available for retirement by their early 40’s.  But the sexist assumptions are very irritating.

Similar comment from a "friend" - when we were building a new house, they asked if we were paying cash, so I answered honestly, and then she said, "Your husband must make good money, what does he do for work?" "He works for me!" She was speechless. LOL!

nessness

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2018, 09:17:33 AM »
I was a military spouse (still sort of am, but my husband is a reservist now) and when I was briefly unemployed I had multiple people refer to me as a housewife. ("What do you do?" "I just finished my Master's in [field] and I'm looking for a job." "Oh, so you're a housewife"). It was definitely grating, as I'm sure no one would refer to my husband as a househusband in this circumstance.

Congrats on your success and your impending retirement!

use2betrix

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2018, 09:21:17 AM »
Thank you, @gaja .  The social disapproval or outright punishment is real for women who try to be assertive (the way a man is expected to be) and are instead perceived as difficult, demanding, selfish, or unlikable.

My experience is rather different. I spent several years before my current career path working in a 95% female dominated workplace. The last 10 years its the opposite, probably 95% male dominated work place.

When I was in the female dominated work place, the women would have zero issue berating male employees or treating them in any different way, in fact, it sometimes seemed like they felt threatened by having a male work in “their” environment.

In my current industry, which is very cut throat, the women are often put on a pedestal. Less swearing with them around, no yelling, everyone is extra friendly, etc.

Several years ago I had a woman who worked for me that used this to her full advantage. Well - one day a manager who was very popular for not sugar coating anything, laid into her just like he would anyone else who deserved it. His boss came to me (as she worked for me) asking if there was anything that needed to be done (to the gentleman that yelled at her). I told him, “nope, she had it coming and it’s nice to see that he wasn’t treating her any differently than anyone else at the company.” She, of course, was very insulted and upset.

Funny when sometimes people “don’t want to be treated any differently,” until, well, they actually ARENT treated any differently.

FYI - one of the women that worked FOR me, made MORE than me. She just got hired in at a better time. She also had less education, less experience (I know this because she was hired onto her first job while we worked together at a previous company). In fact, when management wanted to lay her off I even pulled strings and reorganized staff to keep her longer, and nothing about her stood out for me to do such aside from being friends.

Did I care? NOPE. Couldn’t have cared less. I knew that she was hired under different circumstances and that’s the way life works. I don’t think I ever even mentioned it to a single person, at work or outside work, until this post.

I’m sure if I walked around with some chip on my shoulder like some people here seem to, I could only see it negatively effecting everything else into a downwards spiral.

RetiredAt63

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2018, 09:32:34 AM »
@Lyssa one ?...is it true that half of the people here are female? Due to the #s of engineers and tech types around here and other FI sites saying the community leans heavily male, I assumed the MMM fourms are about 75% (maybe more?) male. Do we have a poll about this? If it's wrong of me to assume that most engineers and techies are male, then I think some quick research would do the trick.

Lots of women are STEM.  And lots of women may be flying under the radar here with gender neutral names.  Lots of women are interested in their finances.  Being one man away from poverty is not a good place to be, and women tend to live longer, so it only makes sense that women would be well represented on a personal finance forum.

Case

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2018, 09:40:16 AM »
@Lyssa one ?...is it true that half of the people here are female? Due to the #s of engineers and tech types around here and other FI sites saying the community leans heavily male, I assumed the MMM fourms are about 75% (maybe more?) male. Do we have a poll about this? If it's wrong of me to assume that most engineers and techies are male, then I think some quick research would do the trick.

Lots of women are STEM.  And lots of women may be flying under the radar here with gender neutral names.  Lots of women are interested in their finances.  Being one man away from poverty is not a good place to be, and women tend to live longer, so it only makes sense that women would be well represented on a personal finance forum.

Your response doesn't answer the question, just speculates.  I think the answer is: a poll is needed.  Or some data source.

StarBright

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2018, 09:43:12 AM »
@Lyssa one ?...is it true that half of the people here are female? Due to the #s of engineers and tech types around here and other FI sites saying the community leans heavily male, I assumed the MMM fourms are about 75% (maybe more?) male. Do we have a poll about this? If it's wrong of me to assume that most engineers and techies are male, then I think some quick research would do the trick.

Lots of women are STEM.  And lots of women may be flying under the radar here with gender neutral names.  Lots of women are interested in their finances.  Being one man away from poverty is not a good place to be, and women tend to live longer, so it only makes sense that women would be well represented on a personal finance forum.

Your response doesn't answer the question, just speculates.  I think the answer is: a poll is needed.  Or some data source.

Old poll located:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-gender-are-you/


Rosy

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2018, 09:44:22 AM »
Have you noticed how often the comments can easily be translated into - well, I am a woman who had this conversation/situation, but I kept my mouth shut because I wanted the business or found it easier just to let them think whatever?
Sad - but true IRL.

How many more generations of women will have to endure this crap? So glad we are having this conversation so that one day it will not be necessary at all.

Alas, grin and bear it - work around it - ignore it, that is still the modus operandi even in the US today. But at least we can vent out in the open now - openly frowned upon in my generation.

Maybe it is time to throw a hissy fit (love how even our language is often disparaging to women) every time a man or a woman (it galls me no end that there are still in this day and age a ton of women who regurgitate the stereotype reactions of many men) makes disparaging comments - seems our voices are still not heard loud and clear.

Rosy

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2018, 09:51:17 AM »
So the old poll says 196 female vs 161 male. Interesting, glad to see it too.

@Lyssa one ?...is it true that half of the people here are female?

Lots of women are interested in their finances.  Being one man away from poverty is not a good place to be, and women tend to live longer, so it only makes sense that women would be well represented on a personal finance forum.

THAT ^^^

Finallyunderstand

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2018, 10:24:22 AM »
I didn't read all the comments but just wanted to say good job!  You kicked ass and can reap the rewards now!!!!  Nicely done.  Let the comments slide and be happy because you have an option most people will never get or never have the desire to try to achieve because you worked hard.

mm1970

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2018, 10:57:07 AM »
Female engineer here, who still has bitterness for only earning 78% of what my husband earns, from the same company, with the same degree (earned from the same university). Current supervisor has done a lot to fix some of the past egregiousness, but once you fall far behind, it's hard to ever catch up. So, yeah, sympathy here on the "it's a man's world" vent. But, major congratulations for your accomplishments!!!

I actually find this quite shocking but it might just be that some people are better at self promoting, showing off what they have done vs other people who quietly get the work done and don't get all the credit.

I know in software engineering at my wife's company, it was like that, but she was so good she ended up making twice what the other (male) engineers were making.

I agree 100%. Good luck explaining to someone who feels they were shorted that it might actually be “them.”

I stumbled across this article last weekend when researching salary negotiations.

https://www.themuse.com/advice/how-to-negotiate-salary-37-tips-you-need-to-know

“Here’s a good example: A famous study done by Linda Babcock for her book, Women Don’t Ask: The High Cost of Avoiding Negotiation—and Positive Strategies for Change, revealed that only about 7% of women attempted to negotiate their first salary, while 57% of men did. Of those people who negotiated, they were able to increase their salary by over 7%.”

Thats just one of countless other explanations.

Don't know much about the Babcock research, but it doesn't sound like it is supported by this very large study by McKinsey and LeanIn (222 companies):

"Women remain significantly underrepresented in the corporate pipeline. From the outset, fewer women than men are hired at the entry level. At every subsequent step, the representation of women further declines, and women of color face an even more dramatic drop-off at senior levels. This disparity is not due to company-level attrition or lack of interest: women and men stay at their companies and ask for promotions at similar rates."
https://womenintheworkplace.com/

Here is the same conclusion based on a large study from Australia: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/05/gender-wage-gap-women-pay-raise-men-study

Now, if women ask as often as men, why is there still a gap? This study is interesting:
"In four studies, Bowles and collaborators from Carnegie Mellon found that people penalized women who initiated negotiations for higher compensation more than they did men. The effect held whether they saw the negotiation on video or read about it on paper, whether they viewed it from a disinterested third-party perspective or imagined themselves as senior managers in a corporation evaluating an internal candidate.
[...]
It’s not that men are immune from being seen as tough or unlikeable when they make aggressive demands. Attempting to negotiate can make anyone seem less nice, Bowles repeatedly found. But it’s only women who subsequently suffer a penalty: people report that they would be less inclined to work with them, be it as coworkers, subordinates, or bosses. The effect is especially strong, Bowles has found, when people observe women who engage in salary negotiations. “Money in particular seems to be a hot one,” she says."
https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-the-dangers-for-women-who-negotiate

Thank you for this.

I have similar anecdotes, being a female engineer making approximately 80% of what the men make here - and it's not me.  Because I've asked, and have penalized.  In fact, several of the higher paid men weren't "better" - when we downsized they were laid off.  I suppose getting paid less was job security?  In any event, in my 25+ years of engineering, several in management, I can tell you that dollar for dollar, women get paid less - but are worth more.

But the plural of anecdote is not data - which is why I like to see the results of the studies above, like the one from CMU (my alma mater).  Often when women speak up they are penalized - whether it be during a negotiation or during a meeting.  And it's hard - it's damn damn hard - when you are the only woman in the building, much less a meeting.

It's important to keep pointing all of this out, to make it better.  The whole privilege thing, whether it be white or male or both - so many people with the privilege work hard and when things aren't equal "well, they must not be trying hard enough, or they must not be good enough" and ... this isn't helpful - because YOU are part of the problem if you are unable or unwilling to actually look at the stats and recognize there is a systemic issue.  I remember reading a study long ago about inequality at MIT in the amount of money/ support male vs. female professors got.  And one of my male coworkers said "well clearly the female professors weren't as good as the males", which missed the entire point (because he hadn't read the study).  The entire point was that the women had to be MUCH better than the men to even get there in the first place, but they didn't have near the financial support from the school.

For sure, things are better now than 25 years ago, when my friend was told "well, you 2 career couples have it so much easier" when asking about a promotion.  (She eventually went on to be the first female SES at that government organization.)  We still have a long way to go.  And one reason why it is slow is that it is so. fucking. exhausting. to deal with the shit day in and day out for 25 years.  So a lot of women drop out.  Quit.  Give up.  It's incredibly stressful and can mess with your mental and physical health to fight for it all of the time.

charis

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2018, 11:15:58 AM »
And one reason why it is slow is that it is so. fucking. exhausting. to deal with the shit day in and day out for 25 years.  So a lot of women drop out.  Quit.  Give up.  It's incredibly stressful and can mess with your mental and physical health to fight for it all of the time.

Great point, why should anyone be expected to put up with being penalized and unsupported on top of everything else that a leadership role in a demanding career requires?  They shouldn't.  And if they are smart enough to rise to the top, they won't.

simonsez

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2018, 11:57:40 AM »
OP, your thread title includes the word vent, so by all means let it out.  That really sucks and is unfortunate.  Your feelings are valid and all-too-common in the "modern" world.

If it bothers you and you want to go beyond venting, politely and professionally correct the person making the wrong assumption.  I would guess most of the men aren't trying to be malicious and sexist (they may certainly still come off that way, but not on purpose), they literally need their eyes opened to other possibilities.  Ignoring it is fine if you don't care, but if you do and decide to educate a man, it could make him think more intelligently about a situation down the line with another woman.

Lyssa

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2018, 01:54:59 PM »
@Lyssa one ?...is it true that half of the people here are female? Due to the #s of engineers and tech types around here and other FI sites saying the community leans heavily male, I assumed the MMM fourms are about 75% (maybe more?) male. Do we have a poll about this? If it's wrong of me to assume that most engineers and techies are male, then I think some quick research would do the trick.

Lots of women are STEM.  And lots of women may be flying under the radar here with gender neutral names.  Lots of women are interested in their finances.  Being one man away from poverty is not a good place to be, and women tend to live longer, so it only makes sense that women would be well represented on a personal finance forum.

Your response doesn't answer the question, just speculates.  I think the answer is: a poll is needed.  Or some data source.

Old poll located:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-gender-are-you/

That's the one I remembered. Thanks for digging it up!

tralfamadorian

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2018, 02:03:17 PM »
Such a frustrating topic and probably one of the only things that really gets under my skin (I'm a pretty laid back person overall).

Latest example involved a plumber who I hired to do some work on a new rental property and had contact solely with me. He told my husband on the only day DH came by the property with me that "it was great that he bought me a project to keep me out of trouble." 

Undecided

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2018, 03:04:16 PM »
I am feeling your vent!

I'm in tech and run operations for a specialty engineering firm (but not an engineer), am the primary earner in our family (DH teaches and is amazing!), and family members still suggest side businesses I could get into to "help support my husband" or "keep busy" while the kids are in school. I have worked an average of 60 hours a week since they've known me. I am continually flummoxed by their inability to understand our situation.

Also - my boss referred to me as an admin this morning and I wanted to kill him. I'll suck it up because he pays me well for the job I do and I have amazing flexibility. But it totally undermines me to call me an admin when introducing me to the customer whose project I'm going to run. 

Down with the patriarchy :) !

If the boss thinks you're an admin, doesn't that mean you're an admin?

bluebelle

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2018, 03:41:36 PM »
Thank you, @gaja .  The social disapproval or outright punishment is real for women who try to be assertive (the way a man is expected to be) and are instead perceived as difficult, demanding, selfish, or unlikable.
very true...we're taught before we start school to be 'nice' and 'helpful' and 'share'

StarBright

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2018, 04:27:43 PM »
I am feeling your vent!

I'm in tech and run operations for a specialty engineering firm (but not an engineer), am the primary earner in our family (DH teaches and is amazing!), and family members still suggest side businesses I could get into to "help support my husband" or "keep busy" while the kids are in school. I have worked an average of 60 hours a week since they've known me. I am continually flummoxed by their inability to understand our situation.

Also - my boss referred to me as an admin this morning and I wanted to kill him. I'll suck it up because he pays me well for the job I do and I have amazing flexibility. But it totally undermines me to call me an admin when introducing me to the customer whose project I'm going to run. 

Down with the patriarchy :) !

If the boss thinks you're an admin, doesn't that mean you're an admin?


That is a very valid question! But I think the answer is no for the following reasons:

My business card says my title is Business Operations Manager

He only introduces me as "My admin" when the customer is military or men who are approximately his age or older. If the person I'm dealing with is a woman or younger man he introduces me with an appropriate role description.

When customers, vendors, VIPs, etc ask to speak to someone else (after I've been introduced as "his admin") my boss has to actually clarify that I am the person to go to with high-level stuff.

But calling me his admin is both trivializing and possessive in a way that makes me grit my teeth and roll my eyes.




CindyBS

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Re: It's a man's world - vent
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2018, 04:50:37 PM »
In my current role, I've taken on a enormous amount of responsibilities.  I've had no training for it and had to learn about subjects that a graduate level + in order to be successful in this role, even though my degree is not in that field.  This takes a lot of self education and learning literally hundreds of new vocab words, procedures, acronyms, and jargon.  I've had to navigate a massively complex private bureaucracy (with no training) as well as very quickly get up to speed on the legal aspect of this position. 

Because of the wildly varying schedule, I have had my whole life revolve about being successful in this job.  Some weeks - 100+ hour workweeks, sometimes as little as 10.  I've had to show up and produce at every hour of the day - including rushing across town after midnight to meet a deadline or being awaken multiple times in the middle of the night.  I've dealt with dozens of departments and high level professionals, maintaining hundreds of appointments at multiple locations, ordering dozens of different supplies.  All project management, purchasing, accounting, scheduling, transportation, etc. has been handled by me.  I am on call 24/7, with no vacation or sick days.

This position has a extremely high level of stress and failure at the job is literally a life and death situation.  People who hold this position typically have stress levels similar to those of combat soldiers and about 25% of them end up with PTSD in less than 1 year.  I have been fortunate to not get PTSD yet. 

You would think this would be a job with an awesome amount pay, prestige and would look great on a resume.  Nope. 

It pays nothing, and unlike people who lose their previous job due to death, disability, being laid off, or unemployment, there is no federal or private insurance available to cover the loss of income to my family for me doing this job instead of my previous job.  There is some federal help, but only if I were to become very, very poor first.

I also cannot put this job on a resume, because this is not considered "work".  I cannot mention it in a job interview, because people who have hold this role before have stated they never get job offers if it is mentioned. 

I am the caregiver of a critically ill child.  I do work overwhelmingly done by women and it is treated the same by our society if I spent the time sitting on the couch watching TV all day. 

You bet your ass it's a man's world.