Author Topic: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.  (Read 12354 times)

Joan-eh?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Toronto
One thing that I value over most other things is freedom of choice. I suspect this might be true of most in the forum; further, everyone on the planet.   So far in my life I have only experienced freedom of choice by having money.  For those who have "retired" and now have freedom derived from much time and maybe a bit less freedom derived from money, I'm wondering how you are experiencing freedom of time as the preferred vehicle to freedom.

This is essentially THE question, non?   

Understanding where and how freedom is derived might help me understand my fears of giving up the choices and freedom derived from  "power of money". 

How are these two types of freedoms experienced differently?




MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9618
Good question, although it seems difficult to split the time and money issues cleanly.

Is "freedom to do what I want to do" sufficiently close to "freedom of choice" for you?  Just asking because that's how I think about it. 

Doing what I want requires both the time to do it and the capability (including money) to do it.  Getting to FI is easier if one increases money available while simultaneously choosing wants that require less money.  Then not having to work 40+ hr/wk frees up that much time as well.

GizmoTX

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf


Joan-eh?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Toronto
MDM, Yes sufficiently close, I suspect.

With money, I have choice if I was too busy in the day to get to the grocery store to order-in or go out.  With money, I can buy the book today, and not wait a month or two in the queue  to get it from the library.

But with more time in retirement, there is less money, so the things (or freedom) I could buy will be less available to me.

I see my SIL, Unhappy and always constrained by lack of money, but she has lots of time. For her the lack of money overshadows this gift of time that she has.  But what I need to get my head around is understanding that the freedoms and choices that come with self directed days are worth more than the need I seem to have to not have to cook every night.

I guess I'm wondering if the freedoms feel different. I want to reinvent my relationship to freedom of time and see it as "better" than freedom from money.


Joan-eh?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Toronto
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

Fantastic! A link to PDF, No less! I guess I won't be sleeping for a while!!! :-)

What was the crucial learning for you?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 08:35:51 PM by Joan-eh? »

10YearGoal

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Location: MA
Gizmo, thanks for the How I Found Freedom link!!!!!

Daisy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Wow, Joan-eh, another great psychological topic on why we are seeking FI and possibly RE.

I think with the freedom of time, the money aspect reduces in significance a little bit.

Say you are too tired to cook and decide to do take out. Well, having ample time on your hands would reduce this extra expense because you could have a freezer stashed with food you cooked in the recent past on a binge-cooking-fest. Although eating out for social reasons may still be a possibility, you reduce the need to eat out due to just convenience. You could also use your new ample time to actually cook a meal for your friends and have them over or meet at a park or beach for a picninc. I've noticed when I plan these kinds of events, I often bring some home-cooked food such as hummus or chicken salad, when others bring some convenience or prepared food from the grocery store since they didn't have time to cook.

Or let's say your aging parents need a lot of help and you have to hire someone to help them rather than having the time to help them out yourself. By having the time to do this, you save both money and you get to spend some quality time giving back to the two people that helped raise you.

Some may have the freedom of time but be too constrained with money. They may not realize the blessing of time they have because they are too frustrated with not having enough money that it takes a lot of mental space for them.

It seems to me that it's nice to have BOTH the freedom of time and money. But I guess I do want it all...
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 08:55:16 PM by Daisy »

iris lily

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3336
I agree with you Joan, that for the average American one can have money, or one can have time. When you've got both, you have joined the ranks of truly wealthy. Most Americans who have cash flowing through their fingers also work insane hours, answering to The Man. Or perhaps they are working their own business, but it is working for money.


BadStache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 14
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

Thank you!

iris lily

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3336
I also agree that options are very much what money buys you, that's why it's lovely to have money.

I don't think of the "things" it will buy so much as choices it allows me to make.

Fuzz

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2015, 09:33:44 PM »
I like the frame of freedom derived from time vs freedom derived from money. I would add that freedom derived from time also requires a lot of self-direction and motivation to maximize.

Cooking is an interesting example for me. It's fun to think that what's holding me back from cooking delicious meals and freezing them so I enjoy healthy and cheap things to eat throughout the week is a lack of time. That may partially be true. What's also holding me back is a little bit of laziness. Simple things that I *know* I can do seem like too much trouble, e.g. deciding what to eat, learning how to prepare it, figuring out where to get the ingredients, etc.. .in comparison to a $4 frozen pizza. The abundance of crap to buy seemingly justifies being lazy. All that being said, there are lots of complicated things I do that require planning and delayed gratification. Cooking just isn't one of them. If I had more time-freedom, I'm not sure my diet would improve.

That's why I like the mustachian commitment to living well in an intelligent way and doing things for yourself. It's a challenge.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2015, 09:45:00 PM »
As a teacher, I may have more of a hint into what retirement is like.  After all, I have eight (unpaid) weeks off in the summer.  This is definitely a nice work schedule. 

When I'm not working, I do cook more, including complicated projects like making homemade cheese; and I do make homemade presents to save for Christmas.  I sleep more, read more, go out to lunch more often. 

When I'm working, I sometimes end up "shortchanging projects" and/or spending more because I lack time.  I usually manage to keep a reasonable balance in this regard, but -- for a number of reasons -- work in December just kicked my butt, and I was behind in every way.  The result was that some of our Christmas projects were lackluster -- by that, I don't necessarily mean gifts, but I ended up bringing veggie trays or meatballs-in-a-crockpot to gatherings, whereas I usually make incredible homemade cheesecakes with a choice of homemade sauces.  In contrast, my mom brought my girls these fantastic homemade gifts, which they LOVED.  I was definitely a little jealous that she'd had the time to turn out those lovely things. 


Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Age: 6
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2015, 11:09:01 PM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

Holy guacamole I will also chime in with thanks.  Just finished reading the the Identity Trap chapter (the first chapter) and already learned a few things.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 11:17:20 PM by Grid »

Joan-eh?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Toronto
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2015, 08:48:13 AM »
Great book!

 Chapter one and two: identity  and intellectual and emotional traps.

My take away: fear comes from thinking one can't handle a situation.

Typical fear: leaving work and realizing that I don't have enough money.
Can I handle the situation ? Yes: I can earn more.
Fear of not getting a good paying job again.
Can I handle the situation: get a lower paying job or spend less.

Ha!
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 08:55:47 AM by Joan-eh? »

ambimammular

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Indiana
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2015, 08:55:29 AM »
I appreciate these book links/recommendations so much. I think I've gleaned everything out of the financial section of our library and need to start inter-library-loaning more.

Cookie78

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1893
  • Location: Canada
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2015, 09:25:38 AM »
Time has always been more valuable to me than money, after I have enough to pay the bills. When I worked lots of overtime at my last position I could take double time off or double pay. 99% of the time I chose the time off. Easy overtime and one year I ended up with 11.5 weeks of vacation due to all the overtime. (Now that I know what I know through this forum, I might have split it 50/50 and invested more!)

Now I'm looking forward to FI and having free time to do what I want. I'm excited to be able to spend time on personal projects and small businesses and not feeling tied down to this cubicle. Unfortunately it takes a bit of money to get to that point. Currently I'm debating how much money it might take for me to be comfortable. It's a hard balance for me to decide on, especially when I'm sitting here in this cubicle!

Awesome book link btw. Looking forward to reading it. Thanks.


Joan-eh?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Toronto
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2015, 10:06:27 AM »
Cookie78 and Spartana,

Thank you for your comments. You highlight the interesting question of what is worth more.  The little extra luxury for the little extra savings or the time. From your comments I looks like time wins the "balance of value" (I'm imagining the old balance scale, for my simple mind)

Spartana, good to hear from your experience. Your honest insight is greatly appreciated.


eostache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 210
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2015, 01:56:51 PM »
Can you RE without FI?

Right now I am not working after getting laid off a decent job last fall. It was a nice easy career type job with pleasant working conditions and great co-workers. But the 40 hours a week still killed my soul. I was laid off due to lack of work projects and I was upset for a day or so, then I decided I really liked my free time. I don't have any debts, live pretty frugal and have a small 'stache. UI is covering expenses nicely for now (crappy job market here right now).

Despite recently putting myself through college for a science degree and graduating with honors (and no debt) I am not terribly ambitious. I really don't want a new exciting challenging career at another company. I don't want to be a contractor/consultant on my own either. The place that laid me off would like to hire me back in the spring if things pick up and I'd be ok to go back to that job, I guess.

I like having all of my time to myself. I can go out for a bike ride or hike if I feel like it. Or I can putter around the apt, cook, read books, play with the cats, nap.

Frankly, even if I keep plugging away at a real job I'll never be able to save enough to really be FI (I'm middle aged already), so I may as well just retire now. haha

Joan-eh?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Toronto
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2015, 04:04:48 PM »
hey eostache! (cool name, princely stache??)

i think there is a way to do this !

living "off the land" or bartering your way through, for example, as long as libraries are free - you have everything you need!

in parallel, I'm always amazed at how happy we are after a vacation of camping! We don't have much, it doesn't cost much, we do as we please and we choose to life this way in spare time!

I guess the conformity issue is still there for me, even through I think i'm not confirming!

So i hear a vote here that the freedom of time is so very much worth it!

how about starting a journey and sharing your ability to do this??

And you know that people will challenge you on this, eh? "Frankly, even if I keep plugging away at a real job I'll never be able to save enough to really be FI (I'm middle aged already), so I may as well just retire now. haha" seems you are almost FI NOW!!
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 04:07:59 PM by Joan-eh? »

alleykat

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2015, 07:01:49 PM »
Both is obviously ideal but if I had a choice, freedom of time would be mine.  I love being able to do what I please without being on a mandatory schedule.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28030
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2015, 10:13:22 PM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with two kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Age: 6
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2015, 10:16:08 PM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.

As good as this one is, what are the other two?

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28030
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2015, 10:21:29 PM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.

As good as this one is, what are the other two?

Mindset by Carol Dweck
How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

If you've always dismissed the second as stupid sounding, go read it now.  I made that mistake for years and wish very much I hadn't.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with two kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Age: 6
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2015, 10:22:59 PM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.

As good as this one is, what are the other two?

Mindset by Carol Dweck
How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

If you've always dismissed the second as stupid sounding, go read it now.  I made that mistake for years and wish very much I hadn't.

Thanks!

Cookie78

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1893
  • Location: Canada
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2015, 10:54:15 PM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.

As good as this one is, what are the other two?

Mindset by Carol Dweck
How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

If you've always dismissed the second as stupid sounding, go read it now.  I made that mistake for years and wish very much I hadn't.

Currently reading 2 out of your 3. :D

(And about 6-8 others)

GizmoTX

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2015, 08:27:53 AM »
We didn't just read Dale Carnegie's book, we took the course, in the mid 70s. It was a major life changer. I remember it meeting weekly for about 10 weeks, & there were significant things to do in the interim to prepare for the meetings. We each had a mentor that we had to talk to prior to each meeting -- it was much more interactive than any college course.

TerriM

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2015, 08:44:07 AM »
Joan-Eh,

I definitely think of time and money as interchangeable since working hourly you get paid hourly.   You can also pay other people to do your work hourly--the cleaning lady, a gardener, a cook or going out to eat.

But I think you also have to know which one you want.  Many people here have FIRE numbers that include living frugally.  If you can get your FIRE number to be higher where you have both money and time in retirement, then, as a previous poster said, you are truly rich when you have both.

I once had a fellow school mom who owns her own business tell me how jealous she is that I get to stay home with my kids--not that she regretted having her business, but she wanted more time with them.  It was totally out of the blue, and I really had to contemplate what she said because for a long time now, I've felt trapped by the kids--that I can't go back to work full-time without sacrificing their happiness, that my job options are limited to what gives me summers off, and that right now, I can't even get much part time work in.  I'm looking forward to my daughter being in Kindergarten next year so that I can "get on with my life."  But sometimes I think to what this friend said and worry that I'll end up on the other side of no time but money.  Since my main goal is to buy a house, I see the money as what will make me happy.  Mostly so that I can spend time in the house with my family planting a garden etc, though

Balance is key.  I'm hoping I can find that balance in my life and be truly happy with everything and everyone I have been blessed with.

Joan-eh?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Toronto
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2015, 12:52:48 PM »
TerriM --Perfect timing on your post! Its greatly appreciated.

I just made list of stages from "current working flat out" to "not working at all" and I think I would be most happy (at least today) in stage 4 of 8 stages... just working when I want to and realizing that I don't have to save anymore.  BALANCE, just like you said. And Freedom to chose what, when, who, where, why, and how. Thanks for the reminder.

Again my time in the FORUM is reinforcing that, for me, the typical conception of retirement falls short. This is a major part of my struggle. The dualism of it: Retired or NOT. Ima needing a Phased Conceptualization. Reminder: ITS A PROCESS!

 I think is more that I will retire FROM a place of work (as someone else smartly said)...just move onto other projects. So I think I'll stop using that word in my head for now. It doesn't suit me today. (Though, when I finally leave the employer, and if I'm not happy, I will gladly change my LinkedIn account to RETIRED ;-) as others here have wonderfully done.)

Thanks all for listening to my exploratory thoughts of  today. But I must now prepare for my work tomorrow after 3 weeks "off" :-)
The irony!!

But still, I am interested what the MMMcommunity experiences as more rewarding in their lives.  (there I go again using dualism to help analyse a situation!)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 12:55:01 PM by Joan-eh? »

Joan-eh?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Toronto
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2015, 01:03:05 PM »
glad to hear that it doesn't feel like "giving up something" - but just doing things differently!  good to hear from the experience of someone who is ER!!

TerriM

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2015, 07:28:18 PM »
I think you need to question the idea of "retirement."  FI means doing what you enjoy without obligation to do it.  Retirement often means giving up a job altogether. I think your idea of phases is great.   (Now how does one stand in one of those phases without letting the winds of work push you around!?!)

My mom never intended to retire, but was forced to by the recession.  But she was happy before working 10-20 hours a week from home.  "Tickled pink" and she felt appreciated by her boss which she needed.  Everything was flexible, she was happy and she really needed the appreciation of her skills.  Now she's taking classes!  Still happy, but I think she'd like to be working again part time, from home.  Not for the money, but to be (feel) useful.  If that's what she needs and wants, then I hope she can have it.

Daisy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2015, 10:01:40 PM »
For me, having been ER'd for a long time now, I think the non-money benefits to not working are vastly more important (and more enjoyable) then the ones that need money. The ability do have 24/7 of your time free to do whatever you want. To sleep or wake when you want. To stay home or go out when you want. To be with friends, family, pets, kids, when you want. To be able to hop on my bike or take a long walk when ever I want. To have meals when I want. To be able to read a book, watch a movie, go online, workout, play sports when I want. To stay home when I'm sick or the weather is bad rather than commute to a job so that I can have a bit more "luxury" money. Being able to stay home when it's a bright sunny beautiful warm day out so I can go play rather than have to commute and spend 8 plus hours a day, everyday, so that I can have more luxury money.  Basically  to not be beholden to someone else's schedule.  Having those freedoms for me far outweigh having to give up (or change) the more spendy things in life so that I could ER sooner rather than later. Choosing to make most meals at home rather then eating out so that I can have ALL of my time be MY time is worth it to be - and that doesn't cost anything :-)!

Yes! My goodness...your posts make me want to cry (in a good way). You really know how to frame things to help us focus on what's important and what you're really sacrificing by not FIREing. We unstructured types really suffer in the 9-5 world...way more suffering than  giving up what many consider creature comforts.

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8808
  • Location: Australia or another awesome area
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2015, 01:42:24 AM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.

As good as this one is, what are the other two?

Mindset by Carol Dweck
How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

If you've always dismissed the second as stupid sounding, go read it now.  I made that mistake for years and wish very much I hadn't.
Pity that none of them is available from my library! However, my parents had a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People", so I read it in my teens. They also had another of his books - "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" I remember it as being very similar in style, but I can't remember what it said.

ScroogeMcDutch

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2015, 06:10:04 AM »
It may sound strange, but when I made the step from employment to self-employment, I also found that it was very liberating. After all, I do have control over my time and effort and can choose where to spend it. It does mean spending some time in activities I don't like (acquisition, administration, etc) but all in all I can pick a direction and go for it.

Of course, when I commit to a project at a customer, that perceived freedom does disappear somewhat, but it was by choice, not because my boss told me to work on this project. And I have turned down projects that I didn't think were interesting enough.

And also, the fact that this increased my income almost twofold didn't hurt either in that liberating feeling. So I am definitely not FIRE by any means, but I do have a higher perceived freedom than many of my employed brethren. On the other hand I do miss the easy money from employment every now and then, and to have someone else do the heavy lifting of acquisition.

FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Pencil Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 592
  • Location: Canada
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2015, 07:41:56 AM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.

It's a good thing the recommendation comes from you, or I would have discarded it after the first few pages as libertarian b.s.  "all time high taxes" "government takes so much" etc. etc.  Hopefully, it gets better.

Toque.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2345
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2015, 07:55:18 AM »
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned 'Your Money or Your Life' yet...

As this thread shows (FIRE being different for everyone), THE bottom line question is to define the values of money and time.  It's made more complicated the younger you are, because we only have a general idea of how much our current money (net worth) will be worth over the course of our life.  FIREcalc-type simulators give us the best picture historical data can buy, but it's also easy to argue that the next 50 years will look a lot different than the last 50 years (I'd be more comfortable if the time-frame were shorter, but my Dad is still travelling the world at 70+, with the help of better medicine). 

And obviously, we have a very difficult time knowing how much our time is worth, since we cannot predict our health and longevity. 

But we should all be grateful not knowing either of these things - it's what allows us to live for the day AND feel better to make optimistic plans for how we can live our best future.  Good luck!

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28030
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2015, 08:10:10 AM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.

It's a good thing the recommendation comes from you, or I would have discarded it after the first few pages as libertarian b.s.  "all time high taxes" "government takes so much" etc. etc.  Hopefully, it gets better.

Toque.

There's a lot of that as well.  Ignoring his political viewpoints, there's a lot of good ideas for how people can be free.  I think there are a lot of people who feel "trapped" or unable to do what they really want.  Power through, I think it's worth it.  ;)
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with two kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Rollin

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1192
  • Location: West-Central Florida - USA
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2015, 08:24:57 AM »
For me, having been ER'd for a long time now, I think the non-money benefits to not working are vastly more important (and more enjoyable) then the ones that need money. The ability do have 24/7 of your time free to do whatever you want. To sleep or wake when you want. To stay home or go out when you want. To be with friends, family, pets, kids, when you want. To be able to hop on my bike or take a long walk when ever I want. To have meals when I want. To be able to read a book, watch a movie, go online, workout, play sports when I want. To stay home when I'm sick or the weather is bad rather than commute to a job so that I can have a bit more "luxury" money. Being able to stay home when it's a bright sunny beautiful warm day out so I can go play rather than have to commute and spend 8 plus hours a day, everyday, so that I can have more luxury money.  Basically  to not be beholden to someone else's schedule.  Having those freedoms for me far outweigh having to give up (or change) the more spendy things in life so that I could ER sooner rather than later. Choosing to make most meals at home rather then eating out so that I can have ALL of my time be MY time is worth it to be - and that doesn't cost anything :-)!

Wow!  That really sums it up, we can all go home now!  You really did capture why I want to ER and am planning to do so 11/16, but may move that to 11/15.

Thank you.

frugaldrummer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 695
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2015, 11:50:34 AM »
Can't resist - now I've got this Devo song stuck in my head :)

A victim of collision on the open sea
Nobody ever said that life was free
Sank, swam, go down with the ship
But use your freedom of choice

I'll say it again in the land of the free
Use your freedom of choice
Your freedom of choice

In ancient Rome
There was a poem
About a dog
Who found two bones
He picked at one
He licked the other
He went in circles
He dropped dead

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom of choice!

Then if you got it you don't want it
Seems to be the rule of thumb
Don't be tricked by what you see
You got two ways to go

I'll say it again in the land of the free
Use your freedom of choice
Freedom of choice

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom of choice

In ancient Rome
There was a poem
About a dog
Who found two bones
He picked at one
He licked the other
He went in circles
He dropped dead

[Repeats]
Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom from choice
Is what you want

FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Pencil Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 592
  • Location: Canada
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2015, 11:51:32 AM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.

It's a good thing the recommendation comes from you, or I would have discarded it after the first few pages as libertarian b.s.  "all time high taxes" "government takes so much" etc. etc.  Hopefully, it gets better.

Toque.

There's a lot of that as well.  Ignoring his political viewpoints, there's a lot of good ideas for how people can be free.  I think there are a lot of people who feel "trapped" or unable to do what they really want.  Power through, I think it's worth it.  ;)

Hm.  I've only read up to the "Group Trap" and I'd be worried about anyone who actually tried to live by that book.  Sure, it has some nice advice about not letting other people define what music or food you should like, how to "Be a Man!" or "Be a Woman!" or whatever.

But there's also a lot of "people are lazy" and "tax is theft" and "Morality is just making myself happy, screw the side effects on other people", which seriously taints the message, imo.  Very, very Randian.

I admit I haven't read the whole thing, but it sounds like a pretty selfish, near psychopathic, way to live if you take it whole (which is probably not what you do, based on your comment).

Toque.

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Age: 6
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2015, 01:39:48 PM »
One of the most influential books we've ever read is How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, by Harry Browne, first published in 1973. It changed our lives & was the start of our Mustachism. I urge you to read it:

http://eiiiforum.com/picsfromusers/howifoundfreedom.pdf

This is one of three books I think everyone ought to read.

It's a good thing the recommendation comes from you, or I would have discarded it after the first few pages as libertarian b.s.  "all time high taxes" "government takes so much" etc. etc.  Hopefully, it gets better.

Toque.

There's a lot of that as well.  Ignoring his political viewpoints, there's a lot of good ideas for how people can be free.  I think there are a lot of people who feel "trapped" or unable to do what they really want.  Power through, I think it's worth it.  ;)

Hm.  I've only read up to the "Group Trap" and I'd be worried about anyone who actually tried to live by that book.  Sure, it has some nice advice about not letting other people define what music or food you should like, how to "Be a Man!" or "Be a Woman!" or whatever.

But there's also a lot of "people are lazy" and "tax is theft" and "Morality is just making myself happy, screw the side effects on other people", which seriously taints the message, imo.  Very, very Randian.

I admit I haven't read the whole thing, but it sounds like a pretty selfish, near psychopathic, way to live if you take it whole (which is probably not what you do, based on your comment).

Toque.

I'm at page 190, and if you're thinking this way already, you will scoff at the chapters in Part II on relationships.  I urge you to keep in mind what is truly meant by "selfish".  By Browne's definitions, there is not a single person that is  being unselfish in the world.  Those things we commonly think of as unselfish (charitable giving, volunteering, etc.) are just ways of people selfishly pursuing their own happiness.  If you are a psychopath, you will selfishly cause problems for others.  If you aren't one, you'll selfishly be a congenial individual because it brings you happiness not being a psychopath.

When he talks about relationships, he talks about avoiding any sort of joint arrangement.  Like it would just be awful to make decisions as a team.  And if you have a kid, one should be a primary custodian, so if you split, there's really no issue.  The concept may be pure, and even practical for some, but for others it's probably best to consider the natural choice of joint custody while still together.  ETA:  The point is take what you read with a grain of salt!  He even suggests you do so.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 01:48:06 PM by Grid »

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28030
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2015, 01:50:28 PM »
Indeed.  And it's not all set in stone: he advocates strongly in the book that one ought never marry, then a few years later (or whatever - I'm going on rough memory) later decides he was wrong, gets married, and was successfully married for multiple decades.

It has interesting concepts, I'd take it the same way I take MMM posts: the ideas have value, even if there are implementation issues.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with two kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Age: 6
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2015, 01:32:43 AM »
Indeed.  And it's not all set in stone: he advocates strongly in the book that one ought never marry, then a few years later (or whatever - I'm going on rough memory) later decides he was wrong, gets married, and was successfully married for multiple decades.

It has interesting concepts, I'd take it the same way I take MMM posts: the ideas have value, even if there are implementation issues.

Close.  He uses his first marriage as an example of an difficult choice he made (initiating his divorce).  And apparently married again many years later.  One very interesting thing - and I was totally amazed as I read this admission in the epilogue - is that Browne actually ran for president in 1996 (and 2000 after searching Wikipedia) as the representative for the Libertarian Party.  I guess it's still a great example of choosing a direct alternative to dealing with the government (just become the government), but for someone who was all about circumventing the government in the first version of the book, the author seemed to have changed quite a bit in 25 years.  I couldn't believe what I was reading.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 01:34:26 AM by Grid »

GoldenStache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 239
  • Location: Washington, DC
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2015, 07:12:17 AM »
PETER -That's a really good idea. (sits on the couch) Lawrence, what would you do if you had a million dollars?
LAWRENCE -I'll tell you what I'll do, man--Two chicks at the same time.
PETER -That's it? If you had a million dollars, that's what you'd do, two chicks at the same time?
LAWRENCE -Damn straight, man. I've always wanted to do that. I figure if I were a millionaire, I could hook that up. Chicks dig guys with money.
PETER -Well not all chicks….
LAWRENCE -Well, the type that double up on a guy like me do.
PETER -Good point.
LAWRENCE-NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
PETER-Besides two chicks at the same time?
LAWRENCE-Oh yeah.
PETER -Nothing.
LAWRENCE -Nothing, huh?
PETER -I would relax, I would sit on my ass all day, I would do nothing.
LAWRENCE -You don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin. He's broke and don't do shit.
http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/o/office-space-script-transcript.html

Philociraptor

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 983
  • Age: 30
  • Location: DFW, TX
  • Eat. Sleep. Lift. Repeat.
Re: Is this THE bottom line question? Freedom with money OR freedom with time.
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2015, 07:49:19 AM »
Money is just a method of exchange that you trade your time for. If you have freedom with time, you also have freedom with money.