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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Apocalyptica602 on February 27, 2014, 07:20:33 PM

Title: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Apocalyptica602 on February 27, 2014, 07:20:33 PM
On the way home from work today I got to thinking: I (wrongfully) tend to find myself judging people for making extremely antimustachian purchases. Most of this stems from the usual frustrations mustachians observe with complainypants people - "I hate my job, I hate my boss, I hate my commute, I'm struggling to make ends meet - oooh I just bought my 2nd child their own iPad, they were having trouble sharing one"

IE: They are unhappy with their financial situation yet spend beyond their means and do nothing to change it.

Whereas if there is someone who's comfortably and happily meeting their savings goals but decides to get a big new SUV every few years 'just because'... I don't have much of a problem with that.

I know it's wrong to judge and what other people do with their money is no business of mine, but just as a thought exercise:

If hypothetically there was a person whom you knew, who was financially secure and had plenty of 'fun money' left-over, is there any activity or purchase they could make that would make you think poorly of their decision?

Within reason of course, otherwise "Taking one hundred dollar bills and lighting them on fire in front of homeless people" would be right up there.

To get the ball rolling I'd say: super high-end dining, like hundreds of dollars per person for a meal
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: foobar on February 27, 2014, 07:36:28 PM
Nope. I figure they know what makes them happy.  Go down your spending and think about how much of it is wasteful to some other people.  If you don't like something (dining out, travel, pets, sports, the arts, drinking, ....) that spending will come across as wasteful. If enjoy them you consider them part of what makes life worth living.


On the way home from work today I got to thinking: I (wrongfully) tend to find myself judging people for making extremely antimustachian purchases. Most of this stems from the usual frustrations mustachians observe with complainypants people - "I hate my job, I hate my boss, I hate my commute, I'm struggling to make ends meet - oooh I just bought my 2nd child their own iPad, they were having trouble sharing one"

IE: They are unhappy with their financial situation yet spend beyond their means and do nothing to change it.

Whereas if there is someone who's comfortably and happily meeting their savings goals but decides to get a big new SUV every few years 'just because'... I don't have much of a problem with that.

I know it's wrong to judge and what other people do with their money is no business of mine, but just as a thought exercise:

If hypothetically there was a person whom you knew, who was financially secure and had plenty of 'fun money' left-over, is there any activity or purchase they could make that would make you think poorly of their decision?

Within reason of course, otherwise "Taking one hundred dollar bills and lighting them on fire in front of homeless people" would be right up there.

To get the ball rolling I'd say: super high-end dining, like hundreds of dollars per person for a meal
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: darkadams00 on February 27, 2014, 07:49:27 PM
My advice to my kids has always been "Live with your choices." If someone has set his/her goals--at whatever level--and is successfully meeting those goals with a bit to spare, I think it's okay to spend any excess above those goals in most any way legally and ethically possible (personally, my goals will always include giving, so charity doesn't have to wait for me to have such an excess). For me, conflict begins when a person announces that his wanter is bigger than his getter.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: chasesfish on February 27, 2014, 07:58:52 PM
Cigarettes
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: fadedsunrise on February 27, 2014, 10:48:17 PM
No. I tend not to judge anyone because I've been so hyper focused since grad school about getting to an appropriate level of mustachianism, stoicism, independence, etc, that I don't have time to be judging. I just assume that if they're spending it, they can afford it somehow. What if they have a giant inheritance, or are harboring a large net worth and taking a rare detour from their frugal habits? Since I wouldn't know, I won't assume the worser.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Bookworm on February 27, 2014, 10:57:34 PM
Spending unlimited amounts of money on children, to the point where the children are routinely deprived of the full range of money experiences (i.e. earning, going without, delayed gratification, solving problems without effortlessly throwing money at them) bothers me, even if the person doing it is fully FI.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: LibraTraci on February 27, 2014, 11:43:20 PM
Two things come to mind:

1 - Driving gas-guzzlers sometimes seems like a "crime against humanity" issue.  People who drive a Ford F-350, or a Hummer, for no good reason (i.e. neither hauling construction equipment nor fighting in a war)-- this seems like a very ugly quality to me. 

2 - Getting awful plastic surgery.  If it hurts my eyes to look at you (chipmunk cheeks, duck lips, grapefruit boobs, eyebrows up near your hairline), something's gone horribly wrong and you should have your "privileged spender" card revoked.

Bottom line, if your spending is inflicting something unpleasant on someone else, we got a problem.   


 
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: steveo on February 28, 2014, 12:13:05 AM
I was going to post that they could spend their money on anything they want and then I read the other posts and I basically agree with all the comments on excessive spending that has already been listed.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: galliver on February 28, 2014, 12:55:44 AM
(Famous) Designer clothes/goods, I think. 

If it's a brand that has better quality workmanship or 'fair trade' or some other redeeming feature, sure, whatever. Vote with your wallet. But if it's a white cotton t-shirt produced pretty exactly to a $10 shirt at Target (etc), and it's $500, that's ridiculous. I wouldn't even notice, but if someone told me they got such a thing, I'd laugh in their face.

Also, really expensive jewelry. Like, more than $5k. Exception for royalty. I see less than zero reason for anyone else to spend that much on pretty sparkly things...

Cigarettes
+1
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: mahina on February 28, 2014, 02:36:39 AM
i agree with libratraci that cosmetic surgery (except in cases of reconstruction after trauma or disease) is a ridiculous waste of money. if anyone wants to spend a big chunk of money on feeling better about themselves, i would suggest they give to charity.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Gray Matter on February 28, 2014, 04:55:32 AM
Two things come to mind:

1 - Driving gas-guzzlers sometimes seems like a "crime against humanity" issue.  People who drive a Ford F-350, or a Hummer, for no good reason (i.e. neither hauling construction equipment nor fighting in a war)-- this seems like a very ugly quality to me. 

2 - Getting awful plastic surgery.  If it hurts my eyes to look at you (chipmunk cheeks, duck lips, grapefruit boobs, eyebrows up near your hairline), something's gone horribly wrong and you should have your "privileged spender" card revoked.

Bottom line, if your spending is inflicting something unpleasant on someone else, we got a problem.

Yes to both of these!
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: MayDay on February 28, 2014, 05:23:39 AM
I judge all gas guzzlers, but I also tell myself that for all I know they have 6 kids and need that suburban.

But Hummers I judge hard with no exceptions.  There isn't a single reason I can think of to have a Hummer.  Only the US government armed forces should own a Hummer in this country. 

Upon further thought, I judge people who destroy the environment unnecessarily.   Cars is just the one I notice the most.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: jhartt3 on February 28, 2014, 06:07:18 AM
cigarettes definitely top my list. 

people who buy things b/c it makes them feel like they have achieved some "status" because they purchased something. (obviously this pertains to consumer goods, if someone buys their first share of Berkshire Hathaway.  I think thats a cool mustachian status symbol)
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: dude on February 28, 2014, 06:13:40 AM
Yep, anyone who buys a time share deserves a facepunch, IMHO.  The most ridiculous concept ever, especially in this day and age of cheap, easily available internet travel package options.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: jhartt3 on February 28, 2014, 06:15:58 AM
Yep, anyone who buys a time share deserves a facepunch, IMHO.  The most ridiculous concept ever, especially in this day and age of cheap, easily available internet travel package options.

I made the mistake the other day of voicing my opinion about them to a coworker who had just toured 2 of them.  I assumed he didnt buy. we work at an engineering firm we are engineers we specialize in logic.  Had to eat my words. 
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: dude on February 28, 2014, 06:28:55 AM
Yep, anyone who buys a time share deserves a facepunch, IMHO.  The most ridiculous concept ever, especially in this day and age of cheap, easily available internet travel package options.

I made the mistake the other day of voicing my opinion about them to a coworker who had just toured 2 of them.  I assumed he didnt buy. we work at an engineering firm we are engineers we specialize in logic.  Had to eat my words.

HAHAHAHA!  My younger brother, never very good with his money, got suckered into buying one years ago.  Well, it turned out the management company wasn't paying the property taxes on the place for years, so guess who was on the hook?  Yep, all the time share "owners" got bills for thousands of dollars.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Mister Fancypants on February 28, 2014, 07:54:55 AM
I think that is my biggest problem with the concept of "Mustachianism" it is very judgmental and so is Mr. Money Mustache. Now we can all agree that for those who spend above their means and buy SUV's or Latte's when they are in debt up to their eyeballs that they do deserve Face Punches and to be judged, reprimanded but more importantly they deserve to be helped and guided to a better money management system and financial life.

Mr. Money Mustache and his ideals and a great many people on this forum choose to judge people for their lifestyle choices and it is completely inappropriate. I for one do not care what you choose to do with your surplus capital, and am very happy for Triple MMM for his decadent lifestyle even though I don't find it very decadent, but if he is happy I am happy for him and would never begrudge him for it. Way too many people here feel it is there place to tell people what is acceptable and what is not. I only judge people for judging.

I am a tremendous saver and very savvy investor, I am as green as I can be but only to the extent that it is convenient, I can care less about biking, I outsource a ton of things as I value my time a lot more then the cost of the labor and some skills just don't excite me.

So would I consider myself Mustachian, not really, but I still think there is tremendous value interacting with a group of people who have the common interest in saving and investing.

-Mister FancyPants
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: nereo on February 28, 2014, 08:32:19 AM
I think that is my biggest problem with the concept of "Mustachianism" it is very judgmental and so is Mr. Money Mustache. Now we can all agree that for those who spend above their means and buy SUV's or Latte's when they are in debt up to their eyeballs that they do deserve Face Punches and to be judged, reprimanded but more importantly they deserve to be helped and guided to a better money management system and financial life.

-Mister FancyPants

+1.  I find many of the views shared here to be judgemental and elitist and it often bothers me. I want to educate people who are deeply in debt and support and encourage them to find their way out.  But ultimately people make their own choices.  As an example, my parents are comfortably retired and live the quintessential suburban lifestyle.  They drive two shiny new cars, drive everywhere and frequently spend lots of money on shiny things.  They can afford it, and they both worked into their 60s to get where they are.  I have to respect their choices, even when they aren't my own.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: davisgang90 on February 28, 2014, 08:34:43 AM
Starting a fire with a $100 bill is almost always wasteful.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: ketchup on February 28, 2014, 08:36:54 AM
Starting a fire with a $100 bill is almost always wasteful.
Yeah, bassoons burn longer anyway.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: irononmaiden on February 28, 2014, 08:40:50 AM
Most of the time I can't be bothered to care. But based on my own past, I tend to have a strong opinion when people's spending is hurting someone else. (I'm talking about direct and avoidable harm against a vulnerable individual.)
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: soccerluvof4 on February 28, 2014, 09:06:11 AM
I think that is my biggest problem with the concept of "Mustachianism" it is very judgmental and so is Mr. Money Mustache. Now we can all agree that for those who spend above their means and buy SUV's or Latte's when they are in debt up to their eyeballs that they do deserve Face Punches and to be judged, reprimanded but more importantly they deserve to be helped and guided to a better money management system and financial life.

Mr. Money Mustache and his ideals and a great many people on this forum choose to judge people for their lifestyle choices and it is completely inappropriate. I for one do not care what you choose to do with your surplus capital, and am very happy for Triple MMM for his decadent lifestyle even though I don't find it very decadent, but if he is happy I am happy for him and would never begrudge him for it. Way too many people here feel it is there place to tell people what is acceptable and what is not. I only judge people for judging.

I am a tremendous saver and very savvy investor, I am as green as I can be but only to the extent that it is convenient, I can care less about biking, I outsource a ton of things as I value my time a lot more then the cost of the labor and some skills just don't excite me.

So would I consider myself Mustachian, not really, but I still think there is tremendous value interacting with a group of people who have the common interest in saving and investing.

-Mister FancyPants



I agree whole hardheartedly with your statements. Big difference if your broke wasting money or your are FI and spending. But in any case there is smart spending and just down right foolish and thats even so for the FI.  Which is what I am here for to see what I am dong foolish.

Having said that what bugs me most is when people I know always complain about how they live paycheck to paycheck, Have familys and seem to be out everynight eating fast food or ordering in. And always at some kind of even that costs money. Try to hint some subtlle advice and there answer is always I know but and the blame there partner.  Trust me less and less this is bothering me though.

To answer the OP ?

The biggest one for me is seeing people with large familys buying 4, 5 6 year old laptops to serve as a babysitting device. I know more than one couple that drags all there kids to events. Constantly tells there little ones to shut up and sticks laptops in there face.  It personally really irritates me.  My kids have tablets but are limited to one hour a day if the read an hour the day prior. I am not saying my way is right BUT i dont think all these electronics should be used as overpriced pacifiers and hence becomes a waste of foolish spending.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: jp on February 28, 2014, 09:38:03 AM
I judge all gas guzzlers, but I also tell myself that for all I know they have 6 kids and need that suburban.

But Hummers I judge hard with no exceptions.  There isn't a single reason I can think of to have a Hummer.  Only the US government armed forces should own a Hummer in this country. 

Upon further thought, I judge people who destroy the environment unnecessarily.   Cars is just the one I notice the most.

I automatically assume anyone who drives a Hummer is a massive douche.  I don't really feel the same way about Suburbans and F250s. 


Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: aclarridge on February 28, 2014, 10:20:36 AM
What does it mean to 'judge' somebody anyway? When I see somebody driving alone in their giant SUV, there's probably a 95% chance they don't need it, so I'm about 95% sure they're just kinda foolish with their money. I don't fight them about it or care much. If you tell me I'm an idiot for thinking that way, then somebody might say you're 'judging' me...

I think that is my biggest problem with the concept of "Mustachianism" it is very judgmental and so is Mr. Money Mustache.

I'd also say MMM isn't judgmental in a bad way - he typically writes in a joking/playful way about wasteful spending. It's more laughing about it, not anger/hate.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: aclarridge on February 28, 2014, 10:21:56 AM
Also when is it OK to 'judge' somebody, or is it just never OK?
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Eric on February 28, 2014, 10:38:38 AM
Definitely this:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/jorts/
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: galliver on February 28, 2014, 10:44:46 AM
Also when is it OK to 'judge' somebody, or is it just never OK?

Social sanctions are an incredibly powerful way to change behavior, possibly more powerful than most state sanctions. Judging is a part of human nature and a powerful force for social good. I would argue that part of the decline in both smoking and overt racist speech in many sectors of society is due to those behaviors being redefined as embarrassingly lower class. In other words, use the n word and people will judge you unfavorably.

I agree with you so much. Sometimes my friends will mention that something shouldn't have shame/a stigma attached (e.g. teen pregnancy came up recently) and I'm not so sure about that. I think it can be a powerful demotivator away from undesirable behaviors.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: LibraTraci on February 28, 2014, 10:54:19 AM
It is definitely good to to differentiate between wise and foolish behaviors, and admire the wise behaviors and look askance at the foolish behaviors. 

I can see where we don't want to become arrogant people, full of contempt for others, but I'm not sure that we are in danger of that. 
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Everything in Moderation on February 28, 2014, 10:57:36 AM
+ 1000000000000000000

"I think that is my biggest problem with the concept of "Mustachianism" it is very judgmental and so is Mr. Money Mustache. Now we can all agree that for those who spend above their means and buy SUV's or Latte's when they are in debt up to their eyeballs that they do deserve Face Punches and to be judged, reprimanded but more importantly they deserve to be helped and guided to a better money management system and financial life.

Mr. Money Mustache and his ideals and a great many people on this forum choose to judge people for their lifestyle choices and it is completely inappropriate.
-Mister FancyPants"
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: arebelspy on February 28, 2014, 11:00:49 AM
No.

Not that I can think of at least.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: frugledoc on February 28, 2014, 11:01:34 AM
I once read about a website that allowed disabled hunters the chance to snipe safari animals over the internet in real time by controlling a camera attached to a rifle

That pissed me off.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Gin1984 on February 28, 2014, 11:06:34 AM
Cigarettes
I was going to say nothing, but you are right cigarettes, or any drug really, other than alcohol or pot.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: golfer44 on February 28, 2014, 11:08:27 AM
Nothing, really
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: MooseOutFront on February 28, 2014, 11:43:52 AM
About the only thing that comes to mind for me is lift kits and huge ties on trucks.  They look stupid and couldn't be less practical here in the city.  So, I would roll my eyes at even my richest friend for owning such a thing even as his second vehicle.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Jamesqf on February 28, 2014, 12:13:11 PM
1 - Driving gas-guzzlers sometimes seems like a "crime against humanity" issue.  People who drive a Ford F-350, or a Hummer, for no good reason (i.e. neither hauling construction equipment nor fighting in a war)-- this seems like a very ugly quality to me.

Second that.  And add people who have a lot of outdoor 'landscape' lighting, just to show off their expensive house.

I find many of the views shared here to be judgemental and elitist and it often bothers me.

Why does it bother you?  I certainly consider myself an elitist, and have worked pretty darned hard to become part of the elites that matter to me.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Gin1984 on February 28, 2014, 12:42:40 PM
(Famous) Designer clothes/goods, I think. 

If it's a brand that has better quality workmanship or 'fair trade' or some other redeeming feature, sure, whatever. Vote with your wallet. But if it's a white cotton t-shirt produced pretty exactly to a $10 shirt at Target (etc), and it's $500, that's ridiculous. I wouldn't even notice, but if someone told me they got such a thing, I'd laugh in their face.

Also, really expensive jewelry. Like, more than $5k. Exception for royalty. I see less than zero reason for anyone else to spend that much on pretty sparkly things...

Cigarettes
+1
Cause I like the sparkly.....   Why would you take my sparkly away? :(
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Beaker on February 28, 2014, 01:00:27 PM
People that leave their car idling to warm up when it's 25 degrees out, particularly in a "transitional" neighborhood where the theft of idling cars is common. The lady I saw that drove her dog to the park to poo, and left her car idling while she waited so that it wouldn't get cold.

I do try not to judge people - I try to come up with valid reasons why their behavior is justified. But sometimes it's really hard, particularly when they're causing a bunch of negative externalities (eg, pollution).

Anyone who buys that IV hangover cure subscription.

Yeah, I can't think of a good reason for that one either.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: crumbcatcher on February 28, 2014, 01:14:31 PM
Definitely this:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/jorts/

This is great - paying $455 for the designer label on a pair of denim shorts, for sure.  A few years later those are going to show up in the thrift store near where I live and someone will pay $10 for them. ;-)

My answer to OP was going to be that I'm not sure if it's judging but I kind of feel sorry for many of the women I work with who walk around with designer handbags, because I know they're extremely expensive. They're nice people, and I suspect they can probably afford them, so I feel that I shouldn't care. It just seems like such an enormous waste to me.

Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: galliver on February 28, 2014, 01:50:03 PM
(Famous) Designer clothes/goods, I think. 

If it's a brand that has better quality workmanship or 'fair trade' or some other redeeming feature, sure, whatever. Vote with your wallet. But if it's a white cotton t-shirt produced pretty exactly to a $10 shirt at Target (etc), and it's $500, that's ridiculous. I wouldn't even notice, but if someone told me they got such a thing, I'd laugh in their face.

Also, really expensive jewelry. Like, more than $5k. Exception for royalty. I see less than zero reason for anyone else to spend that much on pretty sparkly things...

Cigarettes
+1
Cause I like the sparkly.....   Why would you take my sparkly away? :(

Nonono, sparklies are great! I love sparklies! Let's all have sparkly things! Let's just not spend as much on them as on a new car. Or a house. Like designer clothing, I feel like jewelry that expensive exists solely as status symbol rather than for the usual uses of jewelry--decoration, wearable art, symbol/reminder...
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: galliver on February 28, 2014, 01:56:10 PM
Also when is it OK to 'judge' somebody, or is it just never OK?

Social sanctions are an incredibly powerful way to change behavior, possibly more powerful than most state sanctions. Judging is a part of human nature and a powerful force for social good. I would argue that part of the decline in both smoking and overt racist speech in many sectors of society is due to those behaviors being redefined as embarrassingly lower class. In other words, use the n word and people will judge you unfavorably.

I agree with you so much. Sometimes my friends will mention that something shouldn't have shame/a stigma attached (e.g. teen pregnancy came up recently) and I'm not so sure about that. I think it can be a powerful demotivator away from undesirable behaviors.

"MY GOD WHAT WOULD MY MOTHER THINK" will always be a much more powerful motivator for me than just about anything else. And by "my mother" I mean the opinions of everyone I care about and respect.

For me, the question isn't "should be judge?" It's "are we judging the right things, and are we stigmatizing the most socially unproductive behaviors, rather that stuff that's relatively trivial?"

Mhmm. A former office-mate would sometimes say "Oh, don't worry about it, I'm just judging" if I caught him looking over as I did something. At first it was odd but then I realized it was just oddly honest. We all judge. Sometimes that's useful, and sometimes we need to catch ourselves and let it go. e.g. I was starting to judge my current office-mate on the way he conducted his phone conversation with a vendor today. And then I put headphones in.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Jamesqf on February 28, 2014, 03:57:01 PM
I find many of the views shared here to be judgemental and elitist and it often bothers me.

Why does it bother you?  I certainly consider myself an elitist, and have worked pretty darned hard to become part of the elites that matter to me.

Nonjudgementalism is probably the defining moral stance of our era, precisely because, as a culture, we're rejected the idea of a divine moral authority.* If your moral code is self-defined, then everyone else's is just as valid as yours, so you'd better not judge anyone.

I didn't mean being judgmental, but being elitist.  As I said, I work hard to become good at the things I value.  Why shouldn't I be an elitist?  Or should I value incompetence - mediocratism, to maybe coin a word - instead?

Nor do I think there's really any moral authority, whether divinely imposed or self-defined, in most judgements.  As for instance the guy who commutes to his desk job in a shiny new F-350.  He's perhaps expecting the world to judge him as a macho, prosperous, high-status person, while I judge him as insecure, wasteful possibly in debt, and likely to be a jerk.  Neither one of us are making a moral judgement, though.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: huadpe on February 28, 2014, 04:35:37 PM
Reacting to the initial thought about very fine dining, I think that is actually something I object to much less than most eating out.  Yes, going to somewhere like Alinea or Per Se or Noma is staggeringly expensive, but at that very pinnacle level, you're talking about food as art and people working at the absolute peak of their craft.  I can cook quite well at home, and going to a steakhouse is pretty much a waste for me, since I can cook a nice steak at home.  But I cannot come anywhere near the skill that is on display at a three star Michelin restaurant.

Of course if you're in hair on fire debt, you should not go to these places.  Heck, if you're not FI, you should not go to these places.  But if you have the money, and you appreciate the artistry and skill of it, I see it as something like being a patron of the fine arts, except really, really delicious.

Also, these places aren't a "rip off" in as much as they're actually not insanely profitable.  They make a profit, but they have margins that are pretty typical of the restaurant industry.  The price is so high largely because providing the service they are is very expensive to provide.  They pay staff a lot, and they pay suppliers a lot.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: PeteD01 on February 28, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
After reading MMM"s "conveniences" post, any fancy car looks to me like a diamond-encrusted bedpan on wheels.

Peter
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Thegoblinchief on February 28, 2014, 05:31:22 PM
Put me down under the generic "behavior damagin to the environment" category. I don't care if you can "afford" it. If you're wasting resources that future generations can use, you're an asshole.

I try not to judge and use my Optimism Gun liberally, but single people who own anything other than a small hatchback or WORK truck make me cringe. Large houses, even though I make money designing lighting systems for them. Lots of things.

I'm increasingly becoming a minimalist. Read books about 19th century or earlier life. We're ridiculously rich but often far more miserable compared to the average person.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Hedge_87 on March 02, 2014, 06:19:05 AM
I really don't like the people who go way overboard on their yard. I used to live in western KS where it was hard to grow stickers and tumble weeds. People would have yards without a single brown blade of grass. And we are talking 3" tall fescue! Oh but it's ok they installed a well in their back yard so the water is free right.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: nikki on March 02, 2014, 06:48:50 AM
Put me down under the generic "behavior damagin to the environment" category. I don't care if you can "afford" it. If you're wasting resources that future generations can use, you're an asshole.


Ditto.

My grandparents ONLY use paper plates, for example. That really bothers me. I won't even use paper towels often, but paper plates have absolutely no place in my home.

Also not impressed with my family members' insistence on having SUVs, Jeeps, or large trucks for solo commuting (30+ minutes for some of them; <5 minutes or non-existent--homemaker--for others). When they go places together, they almost always drive their own vehicles so they can leave when they want, too. Despite living in the same home. Because going and leaving together is such a hassle, you know? One person wants to stop at Sonic for iced tea on the way back and another wants to stop to get lottery numbers at the convenience store. Clearly driving two huge cars in traffic is necessary.

Bleh. It's wasteful in a more-than-monetary way, and that's what really bothers me.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Russ on March 02, 2014, 08:38:32 AM
No.

Not that I can think of at least.
samesies

Of course, the problem is all we've actually done is changed what we're judging. Now we judge people for exercising judgement, because judging people is part of human nature.
Do we? I'm not sure anyone who does that really understands how "not judging" works. Y'all can judge all you want, and that's totally fine. I get that it has utility / you have a reason for doing it. I just disagree that it's the most productive way to encourage the behavior you want to see in others.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Simple Abundant Living on March 02, 2014, 09:06:28 AM
I'm guilty of doing this.  My DH showed me a picture of his brothers new 90K corvette (the old one was four years old). Same brother's second home is a ski-out luxury home on an exclusive ski resort. My mind was full of all the more deserving things I would do with that much money. Then I realized that if 90% of the world saw the luxury that I live in, they would probably make the same judgements about me. I also know my BIL is a great guy and probably gives loads to charities. (He also bought my mother-in-law a townhouse and moved her out of the trailer park she lived in before he bought his ski home).  I guess it's all perspective.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: PMG on March 02, 2014, 10:02:03 AM
I try hard not to.  The more I judge other people the more I cultivate discontent in myself. 

When it comes to environmental issues I do feel that everyone, every where should be living as responsibly as they can on whatever income they have. 

The clothing industry relies on slave labor.  (woah.)

Somewhere just under 50% of the electricity in the US is from coal burning power plants.  Coal extraction not only permanently wrecks the mountains and water but we willingly send people to an early death just to power our lifestyles?  Sounds like something out of a young adult dystopian novel... oh... wait...

Then there is responsible and irresponsible food production... and on and on.

Even if a person cannot or isn't willing to make drastic changes to their lifestyle for pete's sake take one more step and put you pop bottle in the recycling bin.

ugh.



Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Zikoris on March 02, 2014, 10:43:49 AM
Buying plastic crap that end up in landfills or that island of plastic garbage in the Pacific. People with kids tend to be guilty of this a lot. I don't care how much money you make, you are a piece of shit human being if you do this.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: nereo on March 04, 2014, 08:28:00 AM
I find many of the views shared here to be judgemental and elitist and it often bothers me.

Why does it bother you?  I certainly consider myself an elitist, and have worked pretty darned hard to become part of the elites that matter to me.

Nonjudgementalism is probably the defining moral stance of our era, precisely because, as a culture, we're rejected the idea of a divine moral authority.* If your moral code is self-defined, then everyone else's is just as valid as yours, so you'd better not judge anyone.

I didn't mean being judgmental, but being elitist.  As I said, I work hard to become good at the things I value.  Why shouldn't I be an elitist?  Or should I value incompetence - mediocratism, to maybe coin a word - instead?

I was using the word "elitist" to mean: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources (onlinedictionary.com)
I have no problem with people trying to become among the elite; indeed it's something I personally strive for, and is a goal of most people. What I object to is people who think they are superior because they have reached the upper echelons of some category, and they consequentially treat less fortunate people poorly.  Specifically on thus forum I've encountered lots of demeaning language towards individuals (e.g. moron, clown, fool, idiot or loser), often for individual decisions.  I know someone who drives an F250 but spends every weekend volunteering with kids youth groups.  He loves his truck even though he doesn't really need it.  I'd say his choice in vehicle is a "poor economical choice', but as a person he is wonderful.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: MrsPete on March 04, 2014, 04:12:34 PM
Cigarettes
You took mine.  Cigarettes are a product that has NEVER made any sense to me:  It takes money out of your pocket, it makes you a slave to the habit, it makes you sick and shortens your life, and it is a huge turn-off to a large portion of society.  I can't think of anything that makes less sense. 

I can see that a previous generation (mostly dead now) saw smoking portrayed in movies, etc. as "glamorous", and they didn't have all the facts about the health effects.  I can see that they started and then couldn't stop.  But a person who starts today?  What could they be thinking?
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: impaire on March 04, 2014, 05:13:31 PM
Actually, the richer people are, the more I judge. If you're poor, stretched thin, buy your clothes and food at Wal-Mart because that's what's accessible to you? Understood. If you're rich and you still buy products that rely on borderline (or not borderline) slave labor, dubious environmental practices, etc.? You're a douchenozzle. I'm not going to be calling for you to be punished for being a douchenozzle, and I may even like you in different contexts, but I will definitely judge you.

(Of course I judge myself fairly often, too...)

Following this line of thinking, things like non-ethical diamonds and edible gold pretty much always qualify for contempt, in addition to harmful consumption. Contrary to the OP, however, I would not put super-expensive meals in that category--they rely on so much work, from the growers and farmers to the cooks and waiters, not to mention that a great chef is a great artist as far as I'm concerned...
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Ftao93 on March 05, 2014, 01:23:29 PM
In general, I am a judgemental prick (because I think everyone should try to be cool!).  Part of my paradigm is to minimize that too.

But, getting by on a scooter, when a land yacht goes blowing by you, nearly hits you, and then cuts you off, I have a few things to say regarding that person's questionable parentage, as well as their spending habits :P.

Sometimes in the summer I forget my visor is up, their windows are down, and they can probably hear me....
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Thegoblinchief on March 05, 2014, 03:24:26 PM
The more I think about this thread and its implications, I'm trying to remember it is a circle of control versus circle of concern issue.

Getting angry at random A is pointless. But if a family/friend/acquaintance asks me, I'll speak my mind.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: arebelspy on March 05, 2014, 04:04:21 PM
The more I think about this thread and its implications, I'm trying to remember it is a circle of control versus circle of concern issue.

Getting angry at random A is pointless. But if a family/friend/acquaintance asks me, I'll speak my mind.

There's a difference between telling someone what you think would be best for them, and judging them if they are doing something other than that.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Melody on March 05, 2014, 04:25:51 PM
Actually, the richer people are, the more I judge. If you're poor, stretched thin, buy your clothes and food at Wal-Mart because that's what's accessible to you? Understood. If you're rich and you still buy products that rely on borderline (or not borderline) slave labor, dubious environmental practices, etc.? You're a douchenozzle. I'm not going to be calling for you to be punished for being a douchenozzle, and I may even like you in different contexts, but I will definitely judge you.

This is an interesting one, because I think it can be a habit, even as income increases you shop at the same places etc. I've doubled my income in three years (and quadrupled it over 6 years, starting out a minimum wage) and only now am I realizing "wait second... I can afford to buy it for life, can afford to be ethical with these choices etc" - weirdly I've always thought of food on an ethical spectrum (choosing to eat "no-egg" vegan substitute when I couldn't afford free range eggs, skipping meat altogether if I couldn't afford free range etc), but other stuff (like the environmental impact of buying cheap appliances which break often) is only just starting to dawn on me! I think this one can actually be preached (kindly and non-forcefully) and people will listen.

I judge people who have children which are then (almost exclusively) raised by the nanny (i.e. weekends as well as week days). Seems silly if you ask me - if you don't want to be super involved, don't have them... there is nothing saying you have to reproduce!
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: impaire on March 05, 2014, 08:00:10 PM
This is an interesting one, because I think it can be a habit, even as income increases you shop at the same places etc. I've doubled my income in three years (and quadrupled it over 6 years, starting out a minimum wage) and only now am I realizing "wait second... I can afford to buy it for life, can afford to be ethical with these choices etc" - weirdly I've always thought of food on an ethical spectrum (choosing to eat "no-egg" vegan substitute when I couldn't afford free range eggs, skipping meat altogether if I couldn't afford free range etc), but other stuff (like the environmental impact of buying cheap appliances which break often) is only just starting to dawn on me! I think this one can actually be preached (kindly and non-forcefully) and people will listen.

Yes--this also touch on the fact that sometimes people buy things I disapprove of either because they don't know better or I don't know better (i.e. my judgment is erroneous). It's not like you can know everything about everything, and pay attention to every single one of your moves... So of course, while exercising judgment is natural (and I would actually defend, healthy), getting worked up or preachy about it is a dangerous proposition. Judgments certainly say more about oneself than about the judgee...
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Emg03063 on March 05, 2014, 11:01:40 PM
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: mikefixac on March 06, 2014, 01:26:07 AM
I hate people who are judgmental about me being judgmental.

Nothing beats going to Vegas, watching 400 pounders chowing down at a buffett, followed by a good smoke, then standing in line at the ATM machine.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Thegoblinchief on March 06, 2014, 11:02:44 AM
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.

I would disagree, since it depends on how you raise them. I have three, and I'm trying my best to raise them with as low an impact as possible.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: OldDogNewTrick on March 06, 2014, 11:23:48 AM
Installing enormous amounts of St. Augustine sod which require constant watering and visits from the Chem Lawn guy once a week. The national obssession with acres of unnatural turf has got to stop.

I'd like tax credits on installing Xeriscaping.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Emg03063 on March 06, 2014, 09:47:41 PM
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.

I would disagree, since it depends on how you raise them. I have three, and I'm trying my best to raise them with as low an impact as possible.

It does, and presumably mustachians would have less impact than their spendy counterparts, but housing impacts generally exceed differentials in transportation impact by a fairly large margin.  (If you're all living in a tiny house, that may not be the case).  You can run your own footprint analysis if you're interested in proving me wrong.  http://www.footprintnetwork.org  I appreciate your efforts to minimize your impact, but it doesn't change the basic math that if you have 3 kids, you need to cut your per capita resource use (and theirs, and their kids' in perpetuity) by 33% to achieve the same impact avoidance as simply limiting your offspring to two.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Simple Abundant Living on March 06, 2014, 09:59:00 PM
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.

I would disagree, since it depends on how you raise them. I have three, and I'm trying my best to raise them with as low an impact as possible.

It does, and presumably mustachians would have less impact than their spendy counterparts, but housing impacts generally exceed differentials in transportation impact by a fairly large margin.  (If you're all living in a tiny house, that may not be the case).  You can run your own footprint analysis if you're interested in proving me wrong.  http://www.footprintnetwork.org  I appreciate your efforts to minimize your impact, but it doesn't change the basic math that if you have 3 kids, you need to cut your per capita resource use (and theirs, and their kids' in perpetuity) by 33% to achieve the same impact avoidance as simply limiting your offspring to two.

Two environmentally raised kids or two conventionally raised kids?  I shouldn't even comment, but the OP asked about wasteful spending, not necessarily environmental impact.  IMO, spending money to raise a thoughtful, educated child is not wasted.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Emg03063 on March 07, 2014, 02:54:39 AM
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.

I would disagree, since it depends on how you raise them. I have three, and I'm trying my best to raise them with as low an impact as possible.

It does, and presumably mustachians would have less impact than their spendy counterparts, but housing impacts generally exceed differentials in transportation impact by a fairly large margin.  (If you're all living in a tiny house, that may not be the case).  You can run your own footprint analysis if you're interested in proving me wrong.  http://www.footprintnetwork.org  I appreciate your efforts to minimize your impact, but it doesn't change the basic math that if you have 3 kids, you need to cut your per capita resource use (and theirs, and their kids' in perpetuity) by 33% to achieve the same impact avoidance as simply limiting your offspring to two.

Two environmentally raised kids or two conventionally raised kids?  I shouldn't even comment, but the OP asked about wasteful spending, not necessarily environmental impact.  IMO, spending money to raise a thoughtful, educated child is not wasted.

Yeah, most bigger families tend to be more conservative in their spending per capita than smaller families. 

Our home had two previous owners, and both families had two kids each.
My kids wore the same cloth diapers as older siblings, and diapers were often bought used.
Clothes are used for 2-3 kids.
Toys are shared, and I don't increase the amount of toys bought by # of kids I have (i.e. we only need one spring horse, one dollhouse, one bike per size kid that just gets passed down)
Homeschool materials are passed down from one kid to the next.
On that note, the kids don't even have to leave the house to do their education (except that they sometimes like to do it by the pond, but they walk there).
My minivan, that I bought used, is the most fuel efficient vehicle that will fit my kids, but many people with two kids have same style minivan or a less fuel efficient SUV.

If it makes you feel any better, we have built-in entertainment, so have less need to travel. 

I love my big family.  They are all precious little people that learn conservation by how we live our life.  If you want to judge me because I enjoy these awesome little humans, so be it.  :)


The older I get, the more I try to to love on people and judge less.  What good is all the judging doing, anyway?  There are plenty of people wasting more than you, and there are plenty of people wasting less than you.  I try to learn from others how to improve upon myself, but it isn't my place to judge (something I need to work on...).

I don't judge you for enjoying your awesome little humans--I judge you for creating them :p.  I have no doubt that they are consuming less resources per capita than a smaller family while they are living in your home.  The problem with little people is that they have a nasty tendency to turn into big people who want their own stuff.  Unless your particular set of DNA is somehow God's gift to humankind, you will be hard pressed to justify creating more than a replacement # of them if you value sustainability (which I obviously do).  The amount of social value they need to create to justify their existence in economic terms just becomes increasingly difficult the more you have.  Obviously you get to have your own values, but given the fact that your offspring will be competing against mine for a finite set of resources, I feel pretty justified in my judgment.  The benefit is it creates a social stigma which is a decent motivator in modifying people's behavior, the same way we judge smoking, or other forms of consumption.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: gobius on March 07, 2014, 03:29:19 AM
Also when is it OK to 'judge' somebody, or is it just never OK?

Social sanctions are an incredibly powerful way to change behavior, possibly more powerful than most state sanctions. Judging is a part of human nature and a powerful force for social good. I would argue that part of the decline in both smoking and overt racist speech in many sectors of society is due to those behaviors being redefined as embarrassingly lower class. In other words, use the n word and people will judge you unfavorably.

+1
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Bank on March 07, 2014, 07:14:56 AM
I was going to say nothing.  But then I realized that I judge people to be dumbasses if they spend money knowing that the things they are purchasing will not bring them satisfaction.  I put engaged couples who complain about the stress and cost of weddings right up there.

Note that I don't judge if you spend money on things you think will be utility maximizing that turn out to be otherwise.  C'est la vie.  But I can't process the logic of paying to less satisfied than you would otherwise be, no matter what social pressure if being exerted.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: SweetLife on March 07, 2014, 08:50:51 AM

Cause I like the sparkly.....   Why would you take my sparkly away? :(
[/quote]

LOL ... this reminds me of a very very good friend of mine lol...

This thread is pretty funny... "judge/judge not" ... Long ago I decided I really don't care what other people think of what I do or say or wear or buy ... unless of course I ASK for their opinion (as I have in these forums).  It was after I read a quote You wouldn’t worry so much about what people really thought of you if you knew just how seldom they do.

The one thing that has bothered me most recently that I see so many people doing is - working insane amounts of hours/days, spending little or no time at home - when they have toddlers/small children when they do not have to... I guess this bothers me so much because I think it is more important to be home with your kids/spouse than to have extra cash for a disney vacation (that the kids are too small to remember anyways) ... and then complain that their spouse is unhappy because they are never around or are always working overtime (to pay for the vacation/brand new SUV/ipads for kids/52"TV). BUT these are all people I know their situations  ... random people I really don't care about what they do ... except ...

AND I think it is rather sad ... (I am cashier now at work) a man came up to pay on a bottle of whiskey ... his total was $11.05 he gave me his debit card and said "I think there should be money in there" ... Sigh ... Or the people that come up to pay and pull 12 different credit cards out of their wallets going from one to the other as they are declined until they find one with 'room'.   

VIVA Mustashianism!!! :) 
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: SweetLife on March 07, 2014, 09:05:17 AM
Installing enormous amounts of St. Augustine sod which require constant watering and visits from the Chem Lawn guy once a week. The national obssession with acres of unnatural turf has got to stop.

I'd like tax credits on installing Xeriscaping.

I always thought how much cooler it would be to have a giant garden in front of your house (that you could sell the excess!!) rather than an acre of sod (You have to be privvy here to the fact that my family OWNS a sod farm and sells the lovely green stuff - Bluegrass not so water intensive but still... lol... I just laugh...) course we also have always had a half acre garden lol... and LOADS of space to run in as kids ... moving to the city was a little sad - less garden room WAY less running room for kids ... so we will visit my big brother OFTEN lol... :)   
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: SweetLife on March 07, 2014, 09:11:43 AM
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.


I love my big family.  They are all precious little people that learn conservation by how we live our life.  If you want to judge me because I enjoy these awesome little humans, so be it.  :)

I grew up the last of 5 kids ... I wish we could have more but we are just working on the one for now (though my husband is already hinting that since we managed to have the one maybe 2 is a possibility ... I am not even thinking of anything other than getting through this pregnancy everything ok.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Elaine on March 07, 2014, 09:24:43 AM
This is tough because I try not to judge people since it's counter to my larger life goals. But if I'm honest, I'd say it's not so much the things themselves that people buy that I judge, but the complaining about a lack of money for more purchases, etc. Especially when it is framed as if the person has no choice in the matter (e.g. "well my kids need lacrosse camp"; "my daughter has to have a safe new car" etc.), and I guess that triggers an anger/judge reflex in me. I guess it just irks me when people act like their reactions to things are beyond their control- because I don't believe that's true, I think if something bothers you (external or not) it's up to you to change it. Of course this opens up my little circle of irony, because obviously if I had better control over myself then the behavior of others wouldn't irk me at all. Haha, well I'm working on it!

Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Emg03063 on March 07, 2014, 09:59:28 PM
OK, I do get your point.  I just don't see overpopulation as the problem.  I feel the problem is over consumption as is traditionally done in the US.

The problem is over consumption in aggregate which is equal to per capita consumption * population.  You can say the problem is that we are using too many resources per person (which is true by a factor of ~50% even in a stable population scenario), or that we have too many people, or any combination of the above.  Can we all reduce our consumption?  Of course.   But to get your family's consumption level to that of a 2 child family, you would have to reduce the per capita consumption of your kids (and all of their offspring in perpetuity, assuming they only have 2 kids each by 60%), and that's on top of the 33% reduction we all need to make on average to get to a sustainable level of consumption.  You can economize all you want, but until one of your kids finds a way to genetically engineer chlorophyll into their cells, they all have to eat, and that requires about 2000 calories per day of farmed, gardened, fished, hunted and/or aquacultured biomass.  If all of us decided to have 5 kids, it would only take 13 generations of 250% per generation population growth for our nutritional requirements to demand every watt of sunlight landing on the surface of the earth be converted to nutritional calories for human consumption with 100% efficiency (a technological impossibility), and that's not factoring in increases in longevity.  I don't mean to be alarmist about this, and clearly your particular 5 kids are not going to drive humanity off this resource cliff, but it boggles my mind that people choose to knowingly and willfully put their future generations on the path of this resource squeeze.  When our consumption is down to a sustainable level, if technological improvements let us get some more food out of an acre, or we've given up enough meat eating to allow for a few more people, I could abide some being created without comment, but until that's the case, I can't see any justification for it.  You're simply requiring future generations get by with a lower per capita resource base than you had, and unless you've given them the technology to enjoy the same standard of living off the lower base as you had from your larger one (and we haven't--efficiency improvements from technology have lagged growth rates by 2%/ year on average for the past 40 years), you are condemning your future generations to a lower standard of living than you have had the opportunity to enjoy, which is selfish and irresponsible IMO.  Rant over.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: inthenavy on March 08, 2014, 06:03:12 AM
The one person I admit to judging is an old friend who graduated from an ivy but just doesn't like working, and has used public assistance (food stamps, utility support, unemployment, medicaid) while still smoking, getting cable, travelling to vegas.  It upset me bc  i believe in these programs for people who have no other option, but in this persons case it was laziness and also unethical bc they were making money under the table.  i thought about ending the friendship but I guess i just dont have the guts to tell someone i have no respect for them, so i distance myself.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: kaetana on March 09, 2014, 06:27:10 AM
You know what REALLY gets to me? When people complain about X, but then do nothing to prevent it. It doesn't even matter what X is; I've heard it in a lot of different contexts. Some couple friends of ours are desperately trying to have kids - they've gone through several unsuccessful rounds of IVF - and yet they don't even try to address the single most important thing that every doctor they've had tells them they need to fix: they are both severely overweight. Another friend likes to rant about how expensive everything is here in Australia and how he can no longer afford it, while having three high-end cars, two motorcycles, two bicycles (yet unused), several thousand-dollar-plus remote control cars, and meals out thrice a day every day. I just don't understand it. If you know there's a problem, why wouldn't you do SOMEthing to fix it?! If you choose not to do anything about it, then stop your whining already.

Oh, and by the way, I judge everyone who judges me for being judgmental. Forming and acknowledging first impressions of people is okay; holding onto those impressions despite facts to the contrary is not.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: La Bibliotecaria Feroz on March 09, 2014, 06:43:13 AM
In addition to behavior damaging to the environment, I would add, "stuff damaging to your kids." Like don't buy them fancy stuff unless they are contributing towards it, too, and have shown that they can take care of things. That's not my problem or my business, of course, it just gets people filed under "moron" in my head.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: Thegoblinchief on March 09, 2014, 06:43:38 AM
You know what REALLY gets to me? When people complain about X, but then do nothing to prevent it. It doesn't even matter what X is; I've heard it in a lot of different contexts. Some couple friends of ours are desperately trying to have kids - they've gone through several unsuccessful rounds of IVF - and yet they don't even try to address the single most important thing that every doctor they've had tells them they need to fix: they are both severely overweight. Another friend likes to rant about how expensive everything is here in Australia and how he can no longer afford it, while having three high-end cars, two motorcycles, two bicycles (yet unused), several thousand-dollar-plus remote control cars, and meals out thrice a day every day. I just don't understand it. If you know there's a problem, why wouldn't you do SOMEthing to fix it?! If you choose not to do anything about it, then stop your whining already.

Oh, and by the way, I judge everyone who judges me for being judgmental. Forming and acknowledging first impressions of people is okay; holding onto those impressions despite facts to the contrary is not.

The victim mentality is powerful. Some people just like to complain.
Title: Re: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?
Post by: OldDogNewTrick on March 10, 2014, 07:00:00 AM
Installing enormous amounts of St. Augustine sod which require constant watering and visits from the Chem Lawn guy once a week. The national obssession with acres of unnatural turf has got to stop.

I'd like tax credits on installing Xeriscaping.

I always thought how much cooler it would be to have a giant garden in front of your house (that you could sell the excess!!) rather than an acre of sod (You have to be privvy here to the fact that my family OWNS a sod farm and sells the lovely green stuff - Bluegrass not so water intensive but still... lol... I just laugh...) course we also have always had a half acre garden lol... and LOADS of space to run in as kids ... moving to the city was a little sad - less garden room WAY less running room for kids ... so we will visit my big brother OFTEN lol... :)

We have Bahia by choice as our lawn.... much to the chagrin of our neighbors. :-) Here in Tampa Bay millions of gallons of run off excess fertilizer makes it way into the bay and feeds algae blooms, kills fish, etc... So I'm over-sensitive to the issue. I see people fishing in these retention ponds in the middle of neighborhoods where I know each resident has monthly pesticide and fertilizer sprays on their yard and I wonder that they would even consider eating such fish!