Author Topic: Is there any type of wasteful spending you'd 'judge' someone for no matter what?  (Read 24099 times)

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13528
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
I find many of the views shared here to be judgemental and elitist and it often bothers me.

Why does it bother you?  I certainly consider myself an elitist, and have worked pretty darned hard to become part of the elites that matter to me.

Nonjudgementalism is probably the defining moral stance of our era, precisely because, as a culture, we're rejected the idea of a divine moral authority.* If your moral code is self-defined, then everyone else's is just as valid as yours, so you'd better not judge anyone.

I didn't mean being judgmental, but being elitist.  As I said, I work hard to become good at the things I value.  Why shouldn't I be an elitist?  Or should I value incompetence - mediocratism, to maybe coin a word - instead?

I was using the word "elitist" to mean: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources (onlinedictionary.com)
I have no problem with people trying to become among the elite; indeed it's something I personally strive for, and is a goal of most people. What I object to is people who think they are superior because they have reached the upper echelons of some category, and they consequentially treat less fortunate people poorly.  Specifically on thus forum I've encountered lots of demeaning language towards individuals (e.g. moron, clown, fool, idiot or loser), often for individual decisions.  I know someone who drives an F250 but spends every weekend volunteering with kids youth groups.  He loves his truck even though he doesn't really need it.  I'd say his choice in vehicle is a "poor economical choice', but as a person he is wonderful.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3514
Cigarettes
You took mine.  Cigarettes are a product that has NEVER made any sense to me:  It takes money out of your pocket, it makes you a slave to the habit, it makes you sick and shortens your life, and it is a huge turn-off to a large portion of society.  I can't think of anything that makes less sense. 

I can see that a previous generation (mostly dead now) saw smoking portrayed in movies, etc. as "glamorous", and they didn't have all the facts about the health effects.  I can see that they started and then couldn't stop.  But a person who starts today?  What could they be thinking?

impaire

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 241
Actually, the richer people are, the more I judge. If you're poor, stretched thin, buy your clothes and food at Wal-Mart because that's what's accessible to you? Understood. If you're rich and you still buy products that rely on borderline (or not borderline) slave labor, dubious environmental practices, etc.? You're a douchenozzle. I'm not going to be calling for you to be punished for being a douchenozzle, and I may even like you in different contexts, but I will definitely judge you.

(Of course I judge myself fairly often, too...)

Following this line of thinking, things like non-ethical diamonds and edible gold pretty much always qualify for contempt, in addition to harmful consumption. Contrary to the OP, however, I would not put super-expensive meals in that category--they rely on so much work, from the growers and farmers to the cooks and waiters, not to mention that a great chef is a great artist as far as I'm concerned...

Ftao93

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 232
In general, I am a judgemental prick (because I think everyone should try to be cool!).  Part of my paradigm is to minimize that too.

But, getting by on a scooter, when a land yacht goes blowing by you, nearly hits you, and then cuts you off, I have a few things to say regarding that person's questionable parentage, as well as their spending habits :P.

Sometimes in the summer I forget my visor is up, their windows are down, and they can probably hear me....

Thegoblinchief

  • Guest
The more I think about this thread and its implications, I'm trying to remember it is a circle of control versus circle of concern issue.

Getting angry at random A is pointless. But if a family/friend/acquaintance asks me, I'll speak my mind.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28260
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
The more I think about this thread and its implications, I'm trying to remember it is a circle of control versus circle of concern issue.

Getting angry at random A is pointless. But if a family/friend/acquaintance asks me, I'll speak my mind.

There's a difference between telling someone what you think would be best for them, and judging them if they are doing something other than that.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Melody

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1089
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Australia
Actually, the richer people are, the more I judge. If you're poor, stretched thin, buy your clothes and food at Wal-Mart because that's what's accessible to you? Understood. If you're rich and you still buy products that rely on borderline (or not borderline) slave labor, dubious environmental practices, etc.? You're a douchenozzle. I'm not going to be calling for you to be punished for being a douchenozzle, and I may even like you in different contexts, but I will definitely judge you.

This is an interesting one, because I think it can be a habit, even as income increases you shop at the same places etc. I've doubled my income in three years (and quadrupled it over 6 years, starting out a minimum wage) and only now am I realizing "wait second... I can afford to buy it for life, can afford to be ethical with these choices etc" - weirdly I've always thought of food on an ethical spectrum (choosing to eat "no-egg" vegan substitute when I couldn't afford free range eggs, skipping meat altogether if I couldn't afford free range etc), but other stuff (like the environmental impact of buying cheap appliances which break often) is only just starting to dawn on me! I think this one can actually be preached (kindly and non-forcefully) and people will listen.

I judge people who have children which are then (almost exclusively) raised by the nanny (i.e. weekends as well as week days). Seems silly if you ask me - if you don't want to be super involved, don't have them... there is nothing saying you have to reproduce!

impaire

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 241
This is an interesting one, because I think it can be a habit, even as income increases you shop at the same places etc. I've doubled my income in three years (and quadrupled it over 6 years, starting out a minimum wage) and only now am I realizing "wait second... I can afford to buy it for life, can afford to be ethical with these choices etc" - weirdly I've always thought of food on an ethical spectrum (choosing to eat "no-egg" vegan substitute when I couldn't afford free range eggs, skipping meat altogether if I couldn't afford free range etc), but other stuff (like the environmental impact of buying cheap appliances which break often) is only just starting to dawn on me! I think this one can actually be preached (kindly and non-forcefully) and people will listen.

Yes--this also touch on the fact that sometimes people buy things I disapprove of either because they don't know better or I don't know better (i.e. my judgment is erroneous). It's not like you can know everything about everything, and pay attention to every single one of your moves... So of course, while exercising judgment is natural (and I would actually defend, healthy), getting worked up or preachy about it is a dangerous proposition. Judgments certainly say more about oneself than about the judgee...

Emg03063

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 458
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.

mikefixac

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 313
  • Location: Brea
    • Uncommonly Brilliant
I hate people who are judgmental about me being judgmental.

Nothing beats going to Vegas, watching 400 pounders chowing down at a buffett, followed by a good smoke, then standing in line at the ATM machine.

Thegoblinchief

  • Guest
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.

I would disagree, since it depends on how you raise them. I have three, and I'm trying my best to raise them with as low an impact as possible.

OldDogNewTrick

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Age: 61
  • Location: Florida
Installing enormous amounts of St. Augustine sod which require constant watering and visits from the Chem Lawn guy once a week. The national obssession with acres of unnatural turf has got to stop.

I'd like tax credits on installing Xeriscaping.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 01:17:36 PM by OldDogNewTrick »

Emg03063

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 458
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.

I would disagree, since it depends on how you raise them. I have three, and I'm trying my best to raise them with as low an impact as possible.

It does, and presumably mustachians would have less impact than their spendy counterparts, but housing impacts generally exceed differentials in transportation impact by a fairly large margin.  (If you're all living in a tiny house, that may not be the case).  You can run your own footprint analysis if you're interested in proving me wrong.  http://www.footprintnetwork.org  I appreciate your efforts to minimize your impact, but it doesn't change the basic math that if you have 3 kids, you need to cut your per capita resource use (and theirs, and their kids' in perpetuity) by 33% to achieve the same impact avoidance as simply limiting your offspring to two.

Simple Abundant Living

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
    • Simple Abundant Living
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.

I would disagree, since it depends on how you raise them. I have three, and I'm trying my best to raise them with as low an impact as possible.

It does, and presumably mustachians would have less impact than their spendy counterparts, but housing impacts generally exceed differentials in transportation impact by a fairly large margin.  (If you're all living in a tiny house, that may not be the case).  You can run your own footprint analysis if you're interested in proving me wrong.  http://www.footprintnetwork.org  I appreciate your efforts to minimize your impact, but it doesn't change the basic math that if you have 3 kids, you need to cut your per capita resource use (and theirs, and their kids' in perpetuity) by 33% to achieve the same impact avoidance as simply limiting your offspring to two.

Two environmentally raised kids or two conventionally raised kids?  I shouldn't even comment, but the OP asked about wasteful spending, not necessarily environmental impact.  IMO, spending money to raise a thoughtful, educated child is not wasted.

Emg03063

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 458
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.

I would disagree, since it depends on how you raise them. I have three, and I'm trying my best to raise them with as low an impact as possible.

It does, and presumably mustachians would have less impact than their spendy counterparts, but housing impacts generally exceed differentials in transportation impact by a fairly large margin.  (If you're all living in a tiny house, that may not be the case).  You can run your own footprint analysis if you're interested in proving me wrong.  http://www.footprintnetwork.org  I appreciate your efforts to minimize your impact, but it doesn't change the basic math that if you have 3 kids, you need to cut your per capita resource use (and theirs, and their kids' in perpetuity) by 33% to achieve the same impact avoidance as simply limiting your offspring to two.

Two environmentally raised kids or two conventionally raised kids?  I shouldn't even comment, but the OP asked about wasteful spending, not necessarily environmental impact.  IMO, spending money to raise a thoughtful, educated child is not wasted.

Yeah, most bigger families tend to be more conservative in their spending per capita than smaller families. 

Our home had two previous owners, and both families had two kids each.
My kids wore the same cloth diapers as older siblings, and diapers were often bought used.
Clothes are used for 2-3 kids.
Toys are shared, and I don't increase the amount of toys bought by # of kids I have (i.e. we only need one spring horse, one dollhouse, one bike per size kid that just gets passed down)
Homeschool materials are passed down from one kid to the next.
On that note, the kids don't even have to leave the house to do their education (except that they sometimes like to do it by the pond, but they walk there).
My minivan, that I bought used, is the most fuel efficient vehicle that will fit my kids, but many people with two kids have same style minivan or a less fuel efficient SUV.

If it makes you feel any better, we have built-in entertainment, so have less need to travel. 

I love my big family.  They are all precious little people that learn conservation by how we live our life.  If you want to judge me because I enjoy these awesome little humans, so be it.  :)


The older I get, the more I try to to love on people and judge less.  What good is all the judging doing, anyway?  There are plenty of people wasting more than you, and there are plenty of people wasting less than you.  I try to learn from others how to improve upon myself, but it isn't my place to judge (something I need to work on...).

I don't judge you for enjoying your awesome little humans--I judge you for creating them :p.  I have no doubt that they are consuming less resources per capita than a smaller family while they are living in your home.  The problem with little people is that they have a nasty tendency to turn into big people who want their own stuff.  Unless your particular set of DNA is somehow God's gift to humankind, you will be hard pressed to justify creating more than a replacement # of them if you value sustainability (which I obviously do).  The amount of social value they need to create to justify their existence in economic terms just becomes increasingly difficult the more you have.  Obviously you get to have your own values, but given the fact that your offspring will be competing against mine for a finite set of resources, I feel pretty justified in my judgment.  The benefit is it creates a social stigma which is a decent motivator in modifying people's behavior, the same way we judge smoking, or other forms of consumption.

gobius

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Also when is it OK to 'judge' somebody, or is it just never OK?

Social sanctions are an incredibly powerful way to change behavior, possibly more powerful than most state sanctions. Judging is a part of human nature and a powerful force for social good. I would argue that part of the decline in both smoking and overt racist speech in many sectors of society is due to those behaviors being redefined as embarrassingly lower class. In other words, use the n word and people will judge you unfavorably.

+1

Bank

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 223
I was going to say nothing.  But then I realized that I judge people to be dumbasses if they spend money knowing that the things they are purchasing will not bring them satisfaction.  I put engaged couples who complain about the stress and cost of weddings right up there.

Note that I don't judge if you spend money on things you think will be utility maximizing that turn out to be otherwise.  C'est la vie.  But I can't process the logic of paying to less satisfied than you would otherwise be, no matter what social pressure if being exerted.

SweetLife

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 331
  • Location: Ontario

Cause I like the sparkly.....   Why would you take my sparkly away? :(
[/quote]

LOL ... this reminds me of a very very good friend of mine lol...

This thread is pretty funny... "judge/judge not" ... Long ago I decided I really don't care what other people think of what I do or say or wear or buy ... unless of course I ASK for their opinion (as I have in these forums).  It was after I read a quote You wouldn’t worry so much about what people really thought of you if you knew just how seldom they do.

The one thing that has bothered me most recently that I see so many people doing is - working insane amounts of hours/days, spending little or no time at home - when they have toddlers/small children when they do not have to... I guess this bothers me so much because I think it is more important to be home with your kids/spouse than to have extra cash for a disney vacation (that the kids are too small to remember anyways) ... and then complain that their spouse is unhappy because they are never around or are always working overtime (to pay for the vacation/brand new SUV/ipads for kids/52"TV). BUT these are all people I know their situations  ... random people I really don't care about what they do ... except ...

AND I think it is rather sad ... (I am cashier now at work) a man came up to pay on a bottle of whiskey ... his total was $11.05 he gave me his debit card and said "I think there should be money in there" ... Sigh ... Or the people that come up to pay and pull 12 different credit cards out of their wallets going from one to the other as they are declined until they find one with 'room'.   

VIVA Mustashianism!!! :) 

SweetLife

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 331
  • Location: Ontario
Installing enormous amounts of St. Augustine sod which require constant watering and visits from the Chem Lawn guy once a week. The national obssession with acres of unnatural turf has got to stop.

I'd like tax credits on installing Xeriscaping.

I always thought how much cooler it would be to have a giant garden in front of your house (that you could sell the excess!!) rather than an acre of sod (You have to be privvy here to the fact that my family OWNS a sod farm and sells the lovely green stuff - Bluegrass not so water intensive but still... lol... I just laugh...) course we also have always had a half acre garden lol... and LOADS of space to run in as kids ... moving to the city was a little sad - less garden room WAY less running room for kids ... so we will visit my big brother OFTEN lol... :)   

SweetLife

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 331
  • Location: Ontario
I judge people who choose to have more than 2 kids per couple (unless they're adopting).  The environmental harm is far worse than choosing to drive a gas guzzler, especially in America.


I love my big family.  They are all precious little people that learn conservation by how we live our life.  If you want to judge me because I enjoy these awesome little humans, so be it.  :)

I grew up the last of 5 kids ... I wish we could have more but we are just working on the one for now (though my husband is already hinting that since we managed to have the one maybe 2 is a possibility ... I am not even thinking of anything other than getting through this pregnancy everything ok.

Elaine

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 467
  • Age: 33
  • Location: NYC
    • Small Things Good
This is tough because I try not to judge people since it's counter to my larger life goals. But if I'm honest, I'd say it's not so much the things themselves that people buy that I judge, but the complaining about a lack of money for more purchases, etc. Especially when it is framed as if the person has no choice in the matter (e.g. "well my kids need lacrosse camp"; "my daughter has to have a safe new car" etc.), and I guess that triggers an anger/judge reflex in me. I guess it just irks me when people act like their reactions to things are beyond their control- because I don't believe that's true, I think if something bothers you (external or not) it's up to you to change it. Of course this opens up my little circle of irony, because obviously if I had better control over myself then the behavior of others wouldn't irk me at all. Haha, well I'm working on it!


Emg03063

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 458
OK, I do get your point.  I just don't see overpopulation as the problem.  I feel the problem is over consumption as is traditionally done in the US.

The problem is over consumption in aggregate which is equal to per capita consumption * population.  You can say the problem is that we are using too many resources per person (which is true by a factor of ~50% even in a stable population scenario), or that we have too many people, or any combination of the above.  Can we all reduce our consumption?  Of course.   But to get your family's consumption level to that of a 2 child family, you would have to reduce the per capita consumption of your kids (and all of their offspring in perpetuity, assuming they only have 2 kids each by 60%), and that's on top of the 33% reduction we all need to make on average to get to a sustainable level of consumption.  You can economize all you want, but until one of your kids finds a way to genetically engineer chlorophyll into their cells, they all have to eat, and that requires about 2000 calories per day of farmed, gardened, fished, hunted and/or aquacultured biomass.  If all of us decided to have 5 kids, it would only take 13 generations of 250% per generation population growth for our nutritional requirements to demand every watt of sunlight landing on the surface of the earth be converted to nutritional calories for human consumption with 100% efficiency (a technological impossibility), and that's not factoring in increases in longevity.  I don't mean to be alarmist about this, and clearly your particular 5 kids are not going to drive humanity off this resource cliff, but it boggles my mind that people choose to knowingly and willfully put their future generations on the path of this resource squeeze.  When our consumption is down to a sustainable level, if technological improvements let us get some more food out of an acre, or we've given up enough meat eating to allow for a few more people, I could abide some being created without comment, but until that's the case, I can't see any justification for it.  You're simply requiring future generations get by with a lower per capita resource base than you had, and unless you've given them the technology to enjoy the same standard of living off the lower base as you had from your larger one (and we haven't--efficiency improvements from technology have lagged growth rates by 2%/ year on average for the past 40 years), you are condemning your future generations to a lower standard of living than you have had the opportunity to enjoy, which is selfish and irresponsible IMO.  Rant over.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 10:16:23 PM by Emg03063 »

inthenavy

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 8
The one person I admit to judging is an old friend who graduated from an ivy but just doesn't like working, and has used public assistance (food stamps, utility support, unemployment, medicaid) while still smoking, getting cable, travelling to vegas.  It upset me bc  i believe in these programs for people who have no other option, but in this persons case it was laziness and also unethical bc they were making money under the table.  i thought about ending the friendship but I guess i just dont have the guts to tell someone i have no respect for them, so i distance myself.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 06:09:36 AM by inthenavy »

kaetana

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • Location: the Netherlands
You know what REALLY gets to me? When people complain about X, but then do nothing to prevent it. It doesn't even matter what X is; I've heard it in a lot of different contexts. Some couple friends of ours are desperately trying to have kids - they've gone through several unsuccessful rounds of IVF - and yet they don't even try to address the single most important thing that every doctor they've had tells them they need to fix: they are both severely overweight. Another friend likes to rant about how expensive everything is here in Australia and how he can no longer afford it, while having three high-end cars, two motorcycles, two bicycles (yet unused), several thousand-dollar-plus remote control cars, and meals out thrice a day every day. I just don't understand it. If you know there's a problem, why wouldn't you do SOMEthing to fix it?! If you choose not to do anything about it, then stop your whining already.

Oh, and by the way, I judge everyone who judges me for being judgmental. Forming and acknowledging first impressions of people is okay; holding onto those impressions despite facts to the contrary is not.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5215
In addition to behavior damaging to the environment, I would add, "stuff damaging to your kids." Like don't buy them fancy stuff unless they are contributing towards it, too, and have shown that they can take care of things. That's not my problem or my business, of course, it just gets people filed under "moron" in my head.

Thegoblinchief

  • Guest
You know what REALLY gets to me? When people complain about X, but then do nothing to prevent it. It doesn't even matter what X is; I've heard it in a lot of different contexts. Some couple friends of ours are desperately trying to have kids - they've gone through several unsuccessful rounds of IVF - and yet they don't even try to address the single most important thing that every doctor they've had tells them they need to fix: they are both severely overweight. Another friend likes to rant about how expensive everything is here in Australia and how he can no longer afford it, while having three high-end cars, two motorcycles, two bicycles (yet unused), several thousand-dollar-plus remote control cars, and meals out thrice a day every day. I just don't understand it. If you know there's a problem, why wouldn't you do SOMEthing to fix it?! If you choose not to do anything about it, then stop your whining already.

Oh, and by the way, I judge everyone who judges me for being judgmental. Forming and acknowledging first impressions of people is okay; holding onto those impressions despite facts to the contrary is not.

The victim mentality is powerful. Some people just like to complain.

OldDogNewTrick

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Age: 61
  • Location: Florida
Installing enormous amounts of St. Augustine sod which require constant watering and visits from the Chem Lawn guy once a week. The national obssession with acres of unnatural turf has got to stop.

I'd like tax credits on installing Xeriscaping.

I always thought how much cooler it would be to have a giant garden in front of your house (that you could sell the excess!!) rather than an acre of sod (You have to be privvy here to the fact that my family OWNS a sod farm and sells the lovely green stuff - Bluegrass not so water intensive but still... lol... I just laugh...) course we also have always had a half acre garden lol... and LOADS of space to run in as kids ... moving to the city was a little sad - less garden room WAY less running room for kids ... so we will visit my big brother OFTEN lol... :)

We have Bahia by choice as our lawn.... much to the chagrin of our neighbors. :-) Here in Tampa Bay millions of gallons of run off excess fertilizer makes it way into the bay and feeds algae blooms, kills fish, etc... So I'm over-sensitive to the issue. I see people fishing in these retention ponds in the middle of neighborhoods where I know each resident has monthly pesticide and fertilizer sprays on their yard and I wonder that they would even consider eating such fish!