The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Kiwi Mustache on March 17, 2015, 05:24:46 PM
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My fianc’e (27) and I (26) have been together for six years. We are engaged and planning a wedding for February 2016.
We get along incredibly well the majority of the time and have similar interests and outlooks on life. We own a house together and have lived together for the last four years. We both live the same sort of frugal lifestyle, enjoy keeping fit and healthy (her swimming and myself hiking and cycling) and prefer a night in rather than going out to bars/pubs etc which a lot of people our age are into.
Three months ago, I booked in for couples counselling as we were starting to get a bit more short tempered towards each other and I/we wanted to get a few things ironed out before we got married.
The critical point for me was that our intimacy has pretty much disappeared completely. Sex has never been a huge part of our relationship (once every 2-3 weeks or so at the beginning, moving onto once every 2 months or so in years 2-4) but for the last year, we have had sex only twice. Whenever I go to hold her in a hug to show I’m happy to see her home after a day at work or go to kiss her, she gets all defensive. I’ve brought this up over and over again at the counselling sessions and it is driving a wedge between us. I’ve read up on “sexless” marriages and it seems to be more common than people think. I just find it really difficult to live with someone who I find incredibly attractive but can’t even kiss her without fear of being rejected and the emotional roller coaster that comes with it. She has said she just isn’t an affectionate person but it is soul destroying when you go to hug or kiss someone and they flat out reject you time after time. I’ve tried not initiating touch but then I went two weeks without a hug, kiss goodnight, etc.
I don’t want to feel like a nagging partner demanding more intimacy but it feels like I’m about to marry a friend not my life partner/lover. The councelling has made these issues arise to the surface, but it seems my fiancée doesn’t even care how much strain it is putting on me/our relationship.
I care for my fiancé deeply but don't want to spend the next 40-50 years sharing my life with someone who I can't share this part of life with. I feel like it is so difficult to split up since we have built a life together, own a house, know each others families, etc but then I find the thought of marrying someone that I can't share all of life with horrible at the same time.
Anyone else been in the same situation? What did you do?
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Please don't get married. You can possibly continue to be friends but there's no point entering into a marriage that already has such a huge mismatch between the two of you.
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I left my live-in ex (~2.5 yr relationship) the day after he declined an invitation from me standing in only a towel in the living room with the excuse that he was working on leveling his rogue in World of Warcraft. This was part of an extended period of no/very little sex.
I would have a serious problem with being denied a hug or a kiss on a regular basis, let alone sex.
Has this come up in couple's therapy? I'm a huge supporter of couple's therapy -- it's done wonders for my relationship.
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Send her flowers anonymously. If she doesn't tell you, she cannot be trusted and should be dumped immediately.
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Is it a deal breaker for you?
It would be for me, barring a medical reason for which my partner is actively seeking help or has been confirmed as beyond treatment.
If you don't want to live the next X years like this and she shows no desire to change once this is discussed plainly, you know what you need to do. Don't stay in a relationship because of inertia.
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What does your fiance say on the matter? Can she express why she isn't interested in physical intimacy? Have the two of you discussed whether her reticence to engage in physical contact is because she doesn't want it to lead to sex (e.g., she doesn't want to participate in a hug or kiss because that could open to door to sex) or whether it is because she just does not want to interact physically in any way? If the former, perhaps agreeing to a period of no sex/no sexual activity (whatever activity she wishes to avoid) would allow you two be able to engage in hugging, goodnight kisses, cuddling, etc. without her feeling "pressure" (real or imagined) to engage in more. Then, perhaps you can explore why she doesn't want more. Some people are asexual -- this could describe her. Or, perhaps she's not enjoying sex for x, y, or z reason.
Furthermore, if she is not interested in/willing to participate in sex but you are, have you two discussed the idea of sexual non-monogamy? For couples with discordant sexual drives, this may allow the sexually motivated partner to seek that outside of the relationship while still maintaining an emotional relationship within the partnership. Of course, you would have to define for yourself what sort of non-monogamy would be comfortable (don't ask/don't tell, no friends, only mutually agreed upon partners, only one-night stands, etc.). Just as there are many companionnate marriage, there are many that don't fall into society's rigid understanding of monogamy -- polyamorous couples/triads/quads, open marriages, non-monogamy, monogamish, swingers, etc.
In any event, I would put the breaks on the wedding planning at the moment. I do believe that you can have a happy, fulfilling companionate marriage (if that's what you want), but I also think that if one of you is unhappy with your sexual intimacy now, that's a problem that will only get worse. Ultimately, you two need to decide if there's a way you can arrange a relationship where you both get what you want/need (either within the relationship or outside of it) -- and if you can't, it may be time to part ways.
Best of luck.
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I have been through this as the rejecter. I said most of the things your fiance said, and my partner said most of the things youre saying. During this time, I was on the pill (completely cut my libido), very stressed about work, exhausted every damn night. I had been through the most ill years of my life. I had my weekends constantly overbooked and had nothing to help me relax. There was no time to just "be" with my partner, so I certainly didn't want to be intimate with him! For me, I can only be intimate when we are also being randomly cuddly during the day/week.
Couples counseling is the best thing you could possibly do. To get through it, we did the following:
Went to separate psychologists. We had started this as things went downhill, but we also went to a couple of sessions with the other person and their psychologist.
I got off the pill. He was very resistant to it, both for possibility of getting pregnant and my periods becoming more painful (the reason I'd gone on it), but I'd started other solutions for periods and we're very good with condoms now!
We started regular no-pressure touching, eg hugs, massages of head/back/feet, just holding each other.
We also improved the crap out of our lives. Cut back weekends to one, maybe two outings. I switched projects and offices at work. He finished his degree and has a temporary job. We spent a lot of time talking about everything and going on walks. It took a lot of effort from him when he felt he was just going to get rejected for everything (he kept doing sweet romantic things) and from me to start doing those things for him.
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Once you're married this is likely to get worse. I spent over a year on the marriagebuilders forum. If you go there, most of them would tell you the prognosis isn't good.
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I have come to realise that there are people in your life that you can deeply connect to on a lot of levels and yet, not be physically attracted to. Is this the case, do you think?
I would not marry this person, at least until you figure out why this is happening. Life throws enough at you over a long marriage and mismatched sex drives just dont bode well for success.
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it feels like I’m about to marry a friend not my life partner/lover.
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but it seems my fiancée doesn’t even care how much strain it is putting on me/our relationship.
I'm coming up on 40 now and have been married and divorced. I made the mistake of marrying my best friend. Sparing the details, we really never were truly on the same page as far as being life partners, and we only had sex maybe 50 times in our 8 years together. I was rejected almost every single time. I'd say I successfully initiated without being turned away maybe 5 times our entire time together and was rejected probably 100+ times before I gave up. All the rest were because she decided she was in the mood and that I was adequate to satisfy her need.
The fact that you say your fiancée doesn't seem to care is what concerns me most. I'll take a moment to suggest the book His Needs, Her Needs. Everybody has different needs, but for the overwhelming majority of men, sex with a woman is one of the typical man's needs, especially under age 60 or so. Heck, even my 86-year old grandfather has basically implied he's got an active sex life with his wife still. So age isn't much of a factor in men, although I know it is often listed as a huge factor in women, as far as their desire level. I'll let women comment on that, or you can just Google for honest studies on the subject.
Either way, the bottom line is that the real scary part of what you said is that your fiancée doesn't seem to care about something you care about. It doesn't matter what the subject is, to be honest. Suppose you cared greatly about always cooking eggs thoroughly as opposed to leaving them raw or runny. If it's important to you, it should be important to your spouse. The object is truly for two to become one. You should be compatible enough that you care about certain things not because your brain tells you to care about them, but because your heart tells you to care about them on the basis of its importance to your spouse. I'm not going to call your fiancée heartless towards you, but see if you can step back and see what other areas you may have sacrificed or found that she simply doesn't care about even if it matters to you.
I agree 1000% with the statement above to not get married just because there's inertia. I think that was part of what I did wrong and let me tell you, it's far, far worse to have a marriage end after many years than to break up with a BF/GF or call off a wedding before it happens. Don't let inertia drive your decision. You need to decide what's right based on what's truly right, not just because you know this person better than anyone else and co-own a house with them.
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Deal breaker. I wouldn't go through with it unless counseling led to some miraculous breakthrough.
I think the average couple gets it on like 2.2x per week or something. OP, you're at 0.04x per week. Maybe somewhere in between .04x and 2.2x works for both of you.
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I left my live-in ex (~2.5 yr relationship) the day after he declined an invitation from me standing in only a towel in the living room with the excuse that he was working on leveling his rogue in World of Warcraft. This was part of an extended period of no/very little sex.
I would have a serious problem with being denied a hug or a kiss on a regular basis, let alone sex.
Has this come up in couple's therapy? I'm a huge supporter of couple's therapy -- it's done wonders for my relationship.
Too right. A rogue is a terrible class.
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I left my live-in ex (~2.5 yr relationship) the day after he declined an invitation from me standing in only a towel in the living room with the excuse that he was working on leveling his rogue in World of Warcraft. This was part of an extended period of no/very little sex.
I would have a serious problem with being denied a hug or a kiss on a regular basis, let alone sex.
Has this come up in couple's therapy? I'm a huge supporter of couple's therapy -- it's done wonders for my relationship.
Too right. A rogue is a terrible class.
And it was level 11! We're not talking about an expansion and needing to get back up to max level or anything ;( It was his only class not at 80...(or 85? don't remember...)
/sorry for thread derail OP please seek serious help with this serious issue
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For me, it's a deal breaker, and it sounds like it is for you, otherwise you wouldn't of started a thread ...
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A lot of people are saying deal-breaker, but you have to figure out if its a deal-breaker for you. Is sexual intimacy important to you in a partnership? What does sexual intimacy look like for you and for your partner (perhaps the kind of sexual intimacy you both desire differs)? If the relationship goes without sexual intimacy, is it worth severing the relationship?
1. See a sex-positive counselor/therapist.
2. Read/listen to Dan Savage, who has a lot to say on sexual give and take in relationships and is, surprisingly, fairly conservative in his views on relationships (although not sex, obviously). While I've stopped listening over the years, I felt 99% of his advice was solid.
I will say as a woman her in 20s, my libido comes and goes for large swaths at a time--and when I'm on contraceptives, it mostly goes. I find at these times I don't feel very sexual; this is not a reflection on my partner's appeal, but a reflection on my perception of my self and my self-worth. I can understand that feeling like a friend rather than a partner, but your fiancee may be finding intimacy via nonsexual avenues, and think you are also satisfied with the relationship as such.
My partner and I have worked through these issues through explicit conversation about our sexual needs and desire (not always the most comfortable thing to do, even with your partner--think lots of "I" statements) and through a lot of give and take *ba du cha!*
A (again, sex-positive) counselor will certainly help facilitate working through much of this.
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I left my last relationship partly because of a soul crushing lack of intimacy. It felt terrible and I'm a woman with an average libido. Some counseling by yourself might help.
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If you like your marriage counselor, ask him/her for an individual session with you (maybe your fiancé will want to also) and get all of this off your chest. When you're meeting with a counselor as a couple, they sometimes have to fill in the puzzle pieces of what's really going on. I'm guessing you're not saying totally openly in therapy that you have doubts about lifetime intimacy, right? (otherwise you wouldn't be here asking all of us on a financial forum.) Most people probably have doubts about getting married, and people tend to just want to show excitement about it (which makes it hard to talk about)... add intimacy issues on top of it - it's not like you want to go talk to your mom about it. Individual therapy could actually be really, really good for you right now. The stress will only get worse.
Can I point out though... there's an irony that you're looking for intimacy but sharing that intimacy with a group of strangers (who know little to nothing about you or your situation, and many who give really awful relationship advice). I get it - it's a touchy topic. But, sometimes intimacy issues aren't about our partner opening up to us - it's about us opening up to our partner.
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The lack of sex is one thing. But not even wanting to be hugged/kissed is another. Something is up and it sounds like she isn't being honest with you. I'd give it some time and thought but if keeps up, that'd be a deal breaker for me.
I would never marry someone who A. Doesn't want me to touch them B. Won't tell me why they don't want me to touch them.
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I think this is a deal breaker.
It's one thing to not be interested in sex/have a low libido, but it's another to get defensive over an attempt at a hug.
And just because sexless marriages are more common than one might think doesn't make them okay. It's common for american households to have consumer debt. Doesn't mean you should too.
I'm sorry that you have gotten this far with the relationship only to have it fall apart now. It's possible that she could change, but she has to be willing to work at it, and I think she has to work enough at it to meet your needs, or the relationship isn't going to work in the long run. Does she know that this is important to you?
My husband is a very tactile person and physical intimacy is important to him. It's less important to me, but I am happy to meet his needs because he meets mine. (Have you heard of 5 love languages? DH is definitely physical touch, and mine is acts of service. We both like words of affirmation, but they don't do as much as our "primary" languages do for us... For the record, you don't need to run out and read the book, just understand that people have differ in their preferred ways to give and receive love, and the author boils it down to 5 basic languages.)
Since you are already in some type of counseling, has this been brought up? I agree with another response about having an individual session with the counselor if it hasn't been brought up in your sessions together.
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Intimacy is probably the most important thing there is in a romantic relationship. I would look into the counseling and see if that works. If not, then you shouldn't marry her. Marrying your best friend is a wonderful thing. I'm married to my best friend. However, there is very little point to being married if you can't share every part of yourself with the other person. The physical side of marriage is extremely important. If she is completely unwilling to love you physically, then maybe she'd be better off with a cat and a sewing group.
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If you want a relationship with intimacy in it, then you want a relationship with intimacy in it. Could this become one? Maybe it depends on the cause.
1) Is she asexual (by nature)? Do some reading on the internet about asexuality and think about the different kinds of relationship definitions that exist, maybe some of them will appeal to both of you. It doesn't have to be married-couple-or-nothing. If she is asexual and hasn't heard of the term, she may be defensive and thinking there is something wrong with her, so take that into account. Asexual people aren't 'broken'.
2) Is she asexual (by circumstance)? Stress, exhaustion, hormones, health conditions, or previous trauma can kill a sex drive. Is she willing to see a GP and/or individual counsellor to get to the bottom of it? Are you willing to give her the space to do so, and/or rearrange your lifestyle to support her health?
3) Is there a rift in the relationship that is causing this? I've just come out of a marriage during which I had a low libido, and thought that was just how I am, or maybe just overfamiliarity in a long term relationship. Since I left, holy cow, it's a different story. Apparently I'm just not interested if I've been condescended to and/or snapped at in the last couple of days. I hope counselling will help sort this question out for you.
The worrying bit is if she truly doesn't care. That points to one of three things - either you are not meeting her needs (read marriagebuilders, go to counselling and do a lot of listening); she genuinely feels that she cannot do anything about it (eg asexuality); or she is no longer invested enough in the relationship to care about your needs, and has yet to admit it, perhaps even to herself. There's a strong chance she hasn't figured out which one herself yet. Can you treat her with compassion while you figure it out together?
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I married someone like that. We had sex every other week when we dated. Once we moved in together, instead of going up, it quickly went down to once a month and was never satisfactory for me.
This was an issues we were fighting early on, with hopes of this getting better (stupid me) we go married. It quickly declined further to once every 2-2.5 months. Most of my advances were rejected by him. I've had enough when 12 years into the marriage I spent 4 months trying to get him to put out. He came up with every single excuse there is from "lots of work" to "headache" to "need to mow the lawn tomorrow morning". That was truly the beginning of the end for us.
Add to this the fact that there were always money issues with crazy spending, and I was done. Just done.
Just to give a bit of perspective, once i decided to get divorced, I completely took over all finances, put him on allowance, opened a separate bank account where I was stashing every penny I could (he knew about the account, but had no access to it as it was in my name only). In 12 years that we were married we've never had any savings. Nothing. Only credit card debt and nearly zero checking account balance.
I spend 6 months digging us out of the $6K credit card debt and once we were at zero, saving everything I could in the separate bank account. January 2014 we had $3K in there. Today there is a balance of $45,700. I think I can get another $10K in there before I move out in July. This money will be split between us, but $25K will give me a start to be able to rent an apartment for myself and kids and have a small emergency fund so that I can sleep at night.
I can't wait for this divorce to be over and for me to be able to start fresh.
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Deal breaker. I've been married for 40 years ( two 20-year marriages), and could not even imagine a husband who was seldom if ever sensual and who did not care. I'm not saying you have to be swinging off the chandeliers all the time, but those cosy, warm moments.. that can lead to those toe-tingling, behind-closed-door moments…that lead you to going to work the next morning with a smile on your face…are part of what makes a great marriage. Or even a good marriage. Or even an okay marriage. If there's no physical sizzle going on, and the partner doesn't care about that, I would just be good friends, but not get married. And of course there will be those times when one or the other is sick, or exhausted, or has a broken leg or something. Those are just real life issues, and caring partners will be understanding about that…take a raincheck for awhile, if necessary.
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DEAL BREAKER!!! RUN! This is the time in a relationship when you should be all over each other. If she doesn't even seem motivated to change, this will only get worse.
I was with my ex husband for 26 years and we had sex 2-3 times a week throughout that whole time. And that was despite me having thyroid disease and him suffering from depression. It's not the only thing that matters in a marriage, but it's pretty darn important. Don't go through life starving to death. Find someone who is a better match.
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Please do not marry your fiancé. This happened to my partner exactly the same as you described. He did marry her and suffered years of unhappiness, eventually developing depression and becoming suicidal. It ended in a terribly messy divorce with kids. Years on and he still suffers. Marrying the wrong person can ruin your life. You need hugs, and you will go crazy. Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
Intimacy, love, touching, kissing, are human needs. You'll starve of affection, and possibly seek it elsewhere - and then when you're caught, it'll be your fault! Not fair.
You deserve more and you will find her.
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I spend 6 months digging us out of the $6K credit card debt and once we were at zero, saving everything I could in the separate bank account. January 2014 we had $3K in there. Today there is a balance of $45,700. I think I can get another $10K in there before I move out in July. This money will be split between us, but $25K will give me a start to be able to rent an apartment for myself and kids and have a small emergency fund so that I can sleep at night.
I can't wait for this divorce to be over and for me to be able to start fresh.
Good luck. That is an incredible achievement. Congratulations.
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I spend 6 months digging us out of the $6K credit card debt and once we were at zero, saving everything I could in the separate bank account. January 2014 we had $3K in there. Today there is a balance of $45,700. I think I can get another $10K in there before I move out in July. This money will be split between us, but $25K will give me a start to be able to rent an apartment for myself and kids and have a small emergency fund so that I can sleep at night.
I can't wait for this divorce to be over and for me to be able to start fresh.
Good luck. That is an incredible achievement. Congratulations.
Thank you! I'll be honest, I often log into that account and just stare at the balance there. Just thinking what a bit of restrain and frugality would've done over all these years brings tears to my eyes. But that is all behind me and I am moving on.
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I spend 6 months digging us out of the $6K credit card debt and once we were at zero, saving everything I could in the separate bank account. January 2014 we had $3K in there. Today there is a balance of $45,700. I think I can get another $10K in there before I move out in July. This money will be split between us, but $25K will give me a start to be able to rent an apartment for myself and kids and have a small emergency fund so that I can sleep at night.
I can't wait for this divorce to be over and for me to be able to start fresh.
Good luck. That is an incredible achievement. Congratulations.
+1
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I spend 6 months digging us out of the $6K credit card debt and once we were at zero, saving everything I could in the separate bank account. January 2014 we had $3K in there. Today there is a balance of $45,700. I think I can get another $10K in there before I move out in July. This money will be split between us, but $25K will give me a start to be able to rent an apartment for myself and kids and have a small emergency fund so that I can sleep at night.
I can't wait for this divorce to be over and for me to be able to start fresh.
Good luck. That is an incredible achievement. Congratulations.
Thank you! I'll be honest, I often log into that account and just stare at the balance there. Just thinking what a bit of restrain and frugality would've done over all these years brings tears to my eyes. But that is all behind me and I am moving on.
That's great.
Curious,...does your husband know you are planning on divorcing him, in July?
Has it changed your intimate relationship with him.
For the OP...
Have your g/f go to her GP, and have a physical reason ruled out.
Maybe sex is painful? Does she have infections?
Hormones, thyroid, depression could be playing havoc with her.
As others have mentioned, she may be pulling away from your kisses, because she feels it always leads to sex.
How is your personal relationship. Is she angry with you?
Are you always nagging her? Does she say you are always trying to control her.
Have you ever hit her, push her, caledl her degrading names etc?
How about you?
Has your physical appearance changed?
Rotten teeth, bad breath, gained a lot of weight...not showering enough?
Was there sexual abuse in her childhood?
Maybe she is having second thoughts about getting married?
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I have been through this as the rejecter. I said most of the things your fiance said, and my partner said most of the things youre saying. During this time, I was on the pill (completely cut my libido), very stressed about work, exhausted every damn night. I had been through the most ill years of my life. I had my weekends constantly overbooked and had nothing to help me relax. There was no time to just "be" with my partner, so I certainly didn't want to be intimate with him! For me, I can only be intimate when we are also being randomly cuddly during the day/week.
Couples counseling is the best thing you could possibly do. To get through it, we did the following:
Went to separate psychologists. We had started this as things went downhill, but we also went to a couple of sessions with the other person and their psychologist.
I got off the pill. He was very resistant to it, both for possibility of getting pregnant and my periods becoming more painful (the reason I'd gone on it), but I'd started other solutions for periods and we're very good with condoms now!
We started regular no-pressure touching, eg hugs, massages of head/back/feet, just holding each other.
We also improved the crap out of our lives. Cut back weekends to one, maybe two outings. I switched projects and offices at work. He finished his degree and has a temporary job. We spent a lot of time talking about everything and going on walks. It took a lot of effort from him when he felt he was just going to get rejected for everything (he kept doing sweet romantic things) and from me to start doing those things for him.
+1
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I don't think anybody should get married if they aren't sure they doing the right thing. Sounds like you're not sure, so my advice is to not get married.
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Just a quick reply: read some Dan Savage, or listen to his podcast.
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It'll help, I swear. And oh: good luck to you.
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A relationship without intimacy sounds like a business transaction.
Was there sexual abuse in her childhood?
Sometimes that one has no solution. Some poor victims feel tormented for their entire lives.
I don't blame them, can only imagine that it is a truly harrowing experience.
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I left my live-in ex (~2.5 yr relationship) the day after he declined an invitation from me standing in only a towel in the living room with the excuse that he was working on leveling his rogue in World of Warcraft.
This is a simple misunderstanding.
"I'm leveling up my rogue in WOW" is just the way we guys say "can you give me oral while I'm leveling up my rogue in WOW?"
If you really want to rock his world, bring him a beer (make sure you open it first), then give him oral while he plays WOW.
If you want to qualify for "girlfriend of the year," bring him a beer, and a sandwich, then give him oral while he plays WOW. You might want to have "Sports Center" playing in the back ground for ambiance.
To qualify for Goddess status, bring him a beer, and a sandwich, then call a female friend and you and the friend give him oral while he plays WOW. Have sports center playing in the background.
Then again, maybe the guy is just gay (not that there's anything wrong with that).
And for those who may be wondering. Yes, I did learn all of this from watching old episodes of "Seinfeld."
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I left my live-in ex (~2.5 yr relationship) the day after he declined an invitation from me standing in only a towel in the living room with the excuse that he was working on leveling his rogue in World of Warcraft.
Hi there,
I got the hint, come round to my place ;)
Yours truly,
interested
.....
(hehe, sorry for that).
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From my experience, she's being cold and wants out of the relationship, but doesn't have the balls to end it.
Do yourself and her a favour, and move relationship to a friendship.
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I couldn't be with someone that doesn't want to hug or kiss at least. I love hugs! I say see a councelor on your own and see if you can make a decision but if she doesn't care that it's affecting you it doesn't sound good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I would put the wedding on pause while you investigate this. It may be fixable but it may not. If you are not happy now it is not going to magically get better. I know it's hard to think about facing your family and friends and saying you changed your mind, but IME anybody whose opinion is actually worth anything will support you for making the right decision for you and wanting to do what makes you happy.
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agree with most everyone else. I am all about the importance of compatible sex drives. I told my SO early on that I enjoyed intimacy 5x or more per week and I would expect that from him forever. We have been married for several years now and it hasn't declined. Occasionally we have a bad week, but I remind him that intimacy is very important to me and he obliges.
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If you don't feel confident that you are going to be happy in this marriage, don't get into it.
Go to counseling. Others have described some of the medical and psychological reasons that your girlfriend may not want to have sex. Use counseling to investigate those medical and psychological causes. If you can find and solve them, that's great!
If you can't solve the problems that are identified, don't get married because of inertia, or because you don't want to face up to the possibility of breaking up. You're not going her any favors if you carry on with a relationship simply because you don't want to go through ending it, or don't want to deal with being single.
If counseling brings up problems that can't be solved, don't marry her because you feel sorry for her or don't want to be seen as punishing her. You're not going to hold your breath for the rest of your life, so you'd only be upgrading from a breakup to a divorce.
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I spend 6 months digging us out of the $6K credit card debt and once we were at zero, saving everything I could in the separate bank account. January 2014 we had $3K in there. Today there is a balance of $45,700. I think I can get another $10K in there before I move out in July. This money will be split between us, but $25K will give me a start to be able to rent an apartment for myself and kids and have a small emergency fund so that I can sleep at night.
I can't wait for this divorce to be over and for me to be able to start fresh.
Good luck. That is an incredible achievement. Congratulations.
Thank you! I'll be honest, I often log into that account and just stare at the balance there. Just thinking what a bit of restrain and frugality would've done over all these years brings tears to my eyes. But that is all behind me and I am moving on.
That's great.
Curious,...does your husband know you are planning on divorcing him, in July?
Has it changed your intimate relationship with him.
Yes he knows. The only reason I stayed a year longer is to save some money so that I can move out and provide for the kids. We are in divorce mediation right now.
The intimacy was never really there in a sexual sense. For many years we were very close, lots of touching, kissing, etc, but no sex. He has almost non existend sex drive with practically no regards to my enjoyment of the process. I moved out of the bedroom two years ago and will be moving out of the house this July once school is over.
I can't wait!
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The vows generally include "to have and to hold" and I think have refers to sex.
According to Willard Harley, (His Needs, Her Needs) Sex is the number one thing that men desire in a relationship. I have seen bat shit crazy relationships that survive with sex.
So yeah, this deal is already a nonstarter. Couples counseling won't fix this unless the counselor is well trained in the Harley school.
That said splitting up is difficult and scary. Good luck my friend.
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There is much more than sex in a relationship based on love. Personally, I think sex is over-rated, and if I were in a sexless marriage, and as long as I knew that my wife loved me, I would still chose my wife without the sex and I would still be happy, because my wife is the most wonderful, kind, simple, gentle, loving, caring and attractive woman I ever met and I am 100 % sure the lack or absence of sex would not be a reason to leave her.
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There is much more than sex in a relationship based on love. Personally, I think sex is over-rated, and if I were in a sexless marriage, and as long as I knew that my wife loved me, I would still chose my wife without the sex and I would still be happy, because my wife is the most wonderful, kind, simple, gentle, loving, caring and attractive woman I ever met and I am 100 % sure the lack or absence of sex would not be a reason to leave her.
Sorry to say, but sex is only overrated to those who do not desire sex. To those who do desire sex, it is anything but overrated.
It's been said that when sex is good (good as in both partners are happy and satisfied with status quo whatever that may be), it is 10% of the relationship. But when sex is bad, it is 90% of the relationship.
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I couldn't handle that unless there was a good reason. Have you had a straight-up conversation about it?
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I think there are plenty of opportunities for intimacy in a relationship that do not involve sex but, having experienced a relationship (thank God not a marriage!) without intimacy (physical or otherwise), I know that I couldn't handle it. I kept asking myself if it was enough to end the relationship over because everything else was good -- we got along well, the kids liked him, we were financially compatible (before I was MMM-exposed anyway), we had fun together. But I decided then that yes, it was enough to break up over because there is nothing as meaningful between two people as true intimacy - including physical intimacy. To be desired, to desire, to share something so personal... that's a true expression of love. To be missing that is no way to live. Might as well live alone.
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So sorry that you are dealing with this Kiwi. I think you got good advice with the poster who suggested you postpone the nuptuals. You and proposed DW have some stuff to figure out and cancelling a wedding is much easier than a divorce would be.
I'll tell you what my momma told me (imagine a bit of Texas twang) "Darlin, just because you love him, doesn't mean you can live with him forever."
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I would say - don't get married unless you can resolve this problem to your satisfaction. Problems are unlikely to spontaneously improve just because you've had a wedding. In fact, if anything, the opposite seems to happen. So try counseling, or a medical check-up, or whatever to try to get things to a happier place. If she is unwilling to do it - don't marry. If that is not possible - don't marry.
Something like 30% of marriages are sexless - meaning intercourse happens less than 10x a year. So, given your current sexless status I would expect that you would be highly likely to join that statistics unless these problems are resolved before marriage.
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Yes, it is a complete deal breaker*
* Unless both parties are completely satisfied with that arrangement, which you (very legitimately, I might add) are not.
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There has been a lot of good advice posted here - so I won't elaborate other than to say I couldn't do it. I would suggest ethical non-monogamy, but chronic rejection from hugs would be a hard stop for me. I might need/want more physical connection than some people, but still - that's rough.
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If you can't solve the problems that are identified, don't get married because of inertia, or because you don't want to face up to the possibility of breaking up. You're not going her any favors if you carry on with a relationship simply because you don't want to go through ending it, or don't want to deal with being single.
+1
I hate to say it but if I wanted to live with someone with shared sense of humour, interests and goals but intimacy was off the table, I would just flatmate up with one of the guys from the pub football team. And I would still be pretty miffed if he refused to hug me ever. Sometimes a man needs some hug action even if it is beard-on-beard.
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I'm curious as to how she thinks she can get married while refusing to even address this issue with you. That's unacceptable. I don't care what the issue is, if one spouse's basic needs aren't being met and the other spouse refuses to even discuss it, that is toxic to the relationship.
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It honestly sounds like she's been sexually assaulted at some point in time in her life. I am CRAZY about people touching me, like I will seriously break your damn hand if I'm not expecting it kind of crazy, it took my husband a looooong time for me to be comfortable having sex with him and he got it. That said, I do have a fairly low libido (pill) however we still have sex multiple times a week, even when I don't want to, because I know it's something that is important to him. If she's not willing to go that far, don't marry her.
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The OP posted a topic yesterday about how he felt he wasn't going to do anything special w/ his life. It sounds like he is bored. I have been there, and there is nothing worse than having a boring life.
My suggestion will just get shot down. But I would end the relationship. Travel and try new things for a few years, become a real life Indiana Jones, and then find someone new that fulfils your needs. IMO most men don't end relationships that they should because they are afraid they won't find anyone new, which is completely delusional. If you are doing anything worthwhile with your life, you will find someone new.
Side note: If its libido related, go see a doctor.
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I'm more concerned about her not caring about how much this issue is bothering you. It's a big deal to you and she doesn't seem open to discussing or sharing her feelings with you. It's also a problem that you want to be intimate and she won't concede at all. Sure, desire is one part, but the more you do it the more you want to do it. Sometimes you have to fake it till you make it.
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I strongly agree with couple's therapy. There can be a number of reasons for this physical or psychological, and you really want to know what's going on in her head. For example, some people who are OCD or Aspy just don't like contact, and aren't likely to change. Others might need help getting over an incident from their past.
As everyone said, don't go through with the marriage without thinking this through very carefully. It's must worse to be years down the line and you find that she's unable to change, and/or that you just can't live with it anymore.
You're not being selfish if you call it off.
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OP: Please don't think that marriage will fix problems in a relationship. It doesn't.
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OP: Please don't think that marriage will fix problems in a relationship. It doesn't.
Agreed. It will just make them more complex and expensive to resolve.
If you are not feeling 100% good about things [which you are clearly not] take marriage off the table and start thinking about whether you should not be with this person at all.
-- Vik
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Kiwi: you'll notice that this is my first post on the MMM forum. I'm a long-time (2+ years) on-and-off lurker, who finally registered for the sole purpose of chiming in on your post. You might even consider this a message from a future/alt. universe version of yourself, one who chose a path that he is now warning you against (insert creepy music here).
Assuming that there are no medical issues at play (and based on your description of your early relationship, I'm guessing there's not), go with your gut on this one. Things almost certainly won't improve. In fact, they will probably only get worse over time. And as they get worse, resentments will build. You'll eventually find yourself dropping snarky passive-aggressive comments in the adult version of pulling her pigtails in some misguided attempt to get her attention. This will only lead to more resentments on her part. And if you're a decent enough guy, looking for that which is missing outside of marriage is an option you won't allow yourself to seriously consider. And if you have children, divorce won't really seem like a good option either. And eventually you'll find slowly going somewhat crazy over the whole matter. Love can die of benign neglect. Trust me.
And none of that is to say she is a bad person. But if you're incompatible on such a basic level, and she's indifferent to your needs, it's far better to move on now. There's a whole, big wonderful world out there full of people, very likely including someone for whom you are better suited.
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If it were me I would get out. You are room-mates, not lovers. Marriage will only complicate things. Tell her you care about her but can't get married under these conditions. If she isn't willing to work through these issues find someone you are more compatible with. Good luck.
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There is much more than sex in a relationship based on love. Personally, I think sex is over-rated, and if I were in a sexless marriage, and as long as I knew that my wife loved me, I would still chose my wife without the sex and I would still be happy, because my wife is the most wonderful, kind, simple, gentle, loving, caring and attractive woman I ever met and I am 100 % sure the lack or absence of sex would not be a reason to leave her.
Now this is a REAL sign of intimacy in a relationship. What a wonderful thing to say about your partner.
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It honestly sounds like she's been sexually assaulted at some point in time in her life. I am CRAZY about people touching me, like I will seriously break your damn hand if I'm not expecting it kind of crazy, it took my husband a looooong time for me to be comfortable having sex with him and he got it. That said, I do have a fairly low libido (pill) however we still have sex multiple times a week, even when I don't want to, because I know it's something that is important to him. If she's not willing to go that far, don't marry her.
When I'm anxious (whether it's over work or feeling rushed or whatever) being touched is like nails on a chalkboard, so the last thing I want is intimacy. It has absolutely nothing to do with my partner (and I've never been assaulted). I completely agree with whoever said it could be a lifestyle problem and not a relationship problem. At 24 or 27, it's entirely possible that neither of these people have any f'ing clue who they are or what they need, let alone how to fix a relationship that's become stagnant. (No offense intended, btw.)
They haven't been married before. What experience do they have with difficult conversations in a relationship? Probably very little. If they were 10 or 20 years into a relationship with these issues, I'd say run for the hills. But this one sounds like it needs more time to figure out. Maybe she's not in touch with her body. Maybe she's not in touch with her emotions. Maybe they are both immature and don't know how to experience intimacy (outside of sex). This is the EXACT type of issue where a couple can learn about themselves, and how to communicate and work through things that aren't working. A good marriage isn't one where you get along all the time... It's those moments when you butt heads (and how you handle it) that defines who you are. I see two people willing to go to therapy and try to repair things - which is more than most couples do.
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Your fiancé sounds like a roommate, not a potential life-partner. I would be very wary of taking this to the next level.
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It honestly sounds like she's been sexually assaulted at some point in time in her life. I am CRAZY about people touching me, like I will seriously break your damn hand if I'm not expecting it kind of crazy, it took my husband a looooong time for me to be comfortable having sex with him and he got it. That said, I do have a fairly low libido (pill) however we still have sex multiple times a week, even when I don't want to, because I know it's something that is important to him. If she's not willing to go that far, don't marry her.
When I'm anxious (whether it's over work or feeling rushed or whatever) being touched is like nails on a chalkboard, so the last thing I want is intimacy. It has absolutely nothing to do with my partner (and I've never been assaulted). I completely agree with whoever said it could be a lifestyle problem and not a relationship problem. At 24 or 27, it's entirely possible that neither of these people have any f'ing clue who they are or what they need, let alone how to fix a relationship that's become stagnant. (No offense intended, btw.)
They haven't been married before. What experience do they have with difficult conversations in a relationship? Probably very little. If they were 10 or 20 years into a relationship with these issues, I'd say run for the hills. But this one sounds like it needs more time to figure out. Maybe she's not in touch with her body. Maybe she's not in touch with her emotions. Maybe they are both immature and don't know how to experience intimacy (outside of sex). This is the EXACT type of issue where a couple can learn about themselves, and how to communicate and work through things that aren't working. A good marriage isn't one where you get along all the time... It's those moments when you butt heads (and how you handle it) that defines who you are. I see two people willing to go to therapy and try to repair things - which is more than most couples do.
I think you are saying a lot of good and sensible things here. I'm just not sure they apply to OP's situation. A four year relationship which has had a gradual tailing off of intimacy sounds pretty normal for mature adults to me. And it seems from OP's post that the lack of sex, and even more the lack of hugging and kissing, is not mood-dependent. And for a couple in their early twenties in a new relationship, sex every two to three weeks is I suspect very considerably below the norm. Which is not a problem is both partners are happy, but unfortunately one partner here is very unhappy and the other partner doesn't seem open to change even within a counselling process.
Sorry to say, I think the OP has found an awesome friend in this girl but not a life partner. He is still a year out from the proposed wedding: knocking it on the head now is going to be a lot easier than doing it later.
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Love can be expressed in a lot of different ways. A couple can be very happily in love without intimacy, and people I know even say it is better without intimacy, and longer lasting.
However, this needs to be a very mutual agreement - not something imposed by one on the other. Imposition would be the deal breaker for me.
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Do not think the problem will get better post-marriage. I'm reminded of the old joke of why is the bride smiling when she walks down the aisle? Because she knows she's given her last b-job.
As others have said, if you are fine with celibacy, then this is not a problem. But if it is problem for you already, it is only going to get worse. Get out now.
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I don't think people should ever get married to someone they think they can live with.
Maybe I'm idealistic, but, I kind of think the only reason to get married is when you've found someone feel you cannot live without.
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The lack of sex is one thing. But not even wanting to be hugged/kissed is another.
It's one thing to not be interested in sex/have a low libido, but it's another to get defensive over an attempt at a hug.
I'm curious as to how she thinks she can get married while refusing to even address this issue with you. That's unacceptable. I don't care what the issue is, if one spouse's basic needs aren't being met and the other spouse refuses to even discuss it, that is toxic to the relationship.
That said, I do have a fairly low libido (pill) however we still have sex multiple times a week, even when I don't want to, because I know it's something that is important to him. If she's not willing to go that far, don't marry her.
I'm more concerned about her not caring about how much this issue is bothering you. It's a big deal to you and she doesn't seem open to discussing or sharing her feelings with you. It's also a problem that you want to be intimate and she won't concede at all. Sure, desire is one part, but the more you do it the more you want to do it. Sometimes you have to fake it till you make it.
TOTALLY agree with all of these. I too have a lower libido than my BF, but the big differences are a) I ACTIVELY work on trying to make him happy in this way (and after reading some of y'all's posts I'm thinking maybe I should try getting off hormonal BC?) and b) I love other kinds of physical intimacy (hugs, kisses, massages, snuggling). the lack of ANY of that would make me feel so unloved and totally insane!!!
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Holy cow, my hubs and I have been together close to 25 years and have sex a couple times a week, which is of course less than at the beginning but acceptable to both of us. And I still get a charge holding, kissing him. Don't get me wrong we do not have a perfect relationship and argue alot, but we end up making up in the end. I think that would be hard to do without that physicial, emotional intimacy, which for me are related.
I think it is great that you signed up for couples therapy to address these issues. I think you need to see whether you can get on the same page, make compromises to get on the same page, or if that is not possible, whether it is a dealbreaker to you. I know some people sex or physical intimacy is not as important and not a dealbreaker. For me, at my age I know that would be a dealbreaker. I also think it is very touching the person who would stay with wife even with no sex. Of course if something happened to my husband, accident injury where he was unable to do those things I would stick with him. But to me that is a different thing.
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The OP hasn't ever posted a response, so no idea if they are reading.
There are also alternative styles of physical intimacy than straight up PIV sex leading towards orgasm. If you can get back to a touching/cuddling baseline, talk to her about Karezza. It's a method that worked wonders for my wife and I after a long dry spell.
You can get a basic gist of the approach at r/karezza but if you want to see all of the science and philosophy behind it, read the book "Cupid's Poisoned Arrow"
I definitely wouldn't proceed any further in the relationship until you've arrived at a balanced intimacy that BOTH of you are happy with AND that level has been maintained for at least a year. There's an awful lot of folks on relationship forums like r/deadBedrooms that thought they had things fixed, moved to the next relationship stage, and then the libido immediately shut off again.
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Deal breaker in my opinion but you have to decide for yourself. Don't worry about the life you've built together. Just like in financial investments those are sunk costs. Cut your losses and start fresh. You are way too young to worry about time invested in a relationship that is not working for you. Just imagine how much harder it will be after marriage and possibly kids.
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Echo most of what has been said.
To me, if you are not having sex, you are roommates.
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Thanks for all the replies so far. Glad to I’m not the only person that has gone through this sort of thing.
I have no idea how or when to break the news to my fiancée that I want to end the relationship. How do I tell her, what is the right moment? What do I say? I’ve never done this before. I still care a lot about this person so don’t want it to end ugly with us hating each other and going through legal battles with lawyers to split up the house assets, etc. I know this is going to crush her completely but I want to do it in a respectable way.
I’m also deeply embarrassed because all my family and friends were looking forward to our wedding. I get along with her parents and sister really well also.
I’ll probably have to move out the next day as it would be really awkward living together after I’ve told her.
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I have been through this as the rejecter. I said most of the things your fiance said, and my partner said most of the things youre saying. During this time, I was on the pill (completely cut my libido), very stressed about work, exhausted every damn night. I had been through the most ill years of my life. I had my weekends constantly overbooked and had nothing to help me relax. There was no time to just "be" with my partner, so I certainly didn't want to be intimate with him! For me, I can only be intimate when we are also being randomly cuddly during the day/week.
Couples counseling is the best thing you could possibly do. To get through it, we did the following:
Went to separate psychologists. We had started this as things went downhill, but we also went to a couple of sessions with the other person and their psychologist.
I got off the pill. He was very resistant to it, both for possibility of getting pregnant and my periods becoming more painful (the reason I'd gone on it), but I'd started other solutions for periods and we're very good with condoms now!
We started regular no-pressure touching, eg hugs, massages of head/back/feet, just holding each other.
We also improved the crap out of our lives. Cut back weekends to one, maybe two outings. I switched projects and offices at work. He finished his degree and has a temporary job. We spent a lot of time talking about everything and going on walks. It took a lot of effort from him when he felt he was just going to get rejected for everything (he kept doing sweet romantic things) and from me to start doing those things for him.
This is a very important thing to read. There can be many things causing this. I too have been in the situation as the rejector, and stress, lack of sleep, many things can cause it.
We went a year after our first kid with none.
There were times that I didn't want him to touch me because I didn't want sex. I wanted a cuddle only, and I was afraid he'd push for sex.
We've had pretty long dry spells after #2 also. Not getting much sleep at night, wakeups from the little one, stress at work, no time to relax. Plus I don't want another baby and it took him 2.5 years to go through with the snip. Sometimes, I'm not in the mood!! And, I was tired of being the only birth control.
Frankly, I wouldn't START my marriage like this (ours didn't start this way either). It's important to find a middle ground. There will be ebbs and flows, but you have to make sure it's not 100% ebbs. And that means for the person doing the rejecting, sometimes you just have to go with it. I married a husband, not a roommate. (Plus I find the more you get, the easier it is to get in the mood). I find that I have to make time for snuggles, and sometimes just make time for a quickie.
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Thanks for all the replies so far. Glad to I’m not the only person that has gone through this sort of thing.
I have no idea how or when to break the news to my fiancée that I want to end the relationship. How do I tell her, what is the right moment? What do I say? I’ve never done this before. I still care a lot about this person so don’t want it to end ugly with us hating each other and going through legal battles with lawyers to split up the house assets, etc. I know this is going to crush her completely but I want to do it in a respectable way.
I’m also deeply embarrassed because all my family and friends were looking forward to our wedding. I get along with her parents and sister really well also.
I’ll probably have to move out the next day as it would be really awkward living together after I’ve told her.
There will never be a good time. It will always be painful. She will be upset. You will be judged by your family and friends. But ultimately, you have to do what is right for your life and not burden her with a resentful husband, so it is the best decision for the onyl two people who matter in the decision.
As far as what to say, be honest. Don't cast blame, but point out how it is not a healthy relationship for both parties. Maybe after some time and distance, you two will be able to rebuild your friendship, but I wouldn't expect that to instantly be okay.
Good luck.
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You're simply friends. Roommates. Don't get married.
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I’ll probably have to move out the next day as it would be really awkward living together after I’ve told her.
I don't know the laws where you are but this could be a very bad move. It is damn uncomfortable to stay in a house with someone once you have ended the relationship (been there, done that) but you do have to protect your property and rights
Also, it sounds like you have made a decision, but instead of starting the conversation with "I want to break up with you" Why don't you start with "These are my concerns and issues, can we talk about them" and use lots of "I and me statements" instead of "you" blaming statements. How you start the conversation will determine how it goes. She might be relieved you are bringing it up, but you don't want to start with putting her on the defensive.
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Speaking as someone who has far too much experience ending relationships, I'd recommend against going to her and saying "I'm breaking up with you."
Instead, start by discussing your relationship issues around touch and intimacy. Explain that these are really important to you and a vital part of what separates a marriage partner from a best friend, and that the two of you need to decide together which of those two things your future relationship is going to be.
You probably won't get anywhere in one session, and it's okay to let it sit for a few days while she thinks about it. During that time, try to be as supportive and wonderful of a partner as you know how to be.
Eventually you'll have to get back to this topic. She might realize that she'd rather start having more sex than lose you, or she might acknowledge some event in her past that makes her feel this way and agree to seek outside help, or she might be relieved to have a ready escape hatch from a relationship she's also unsure about.
In any case, try to make the decision as mutual as possible. If she cares about your feelings at all she won't demand that you give up sex for life for her. This approach gives her a framework for making the decision about whether to try to change herself or end her engagement.
Even partnerships that are in the process of failing are still partnerships. Don't do anything unilaterally, be open and honest about your feelings, desires, and goals, and then decide whether you want to try to work through a long and hard solution that keeps you together or accept the long and hard process of extricating your romantic feelings from your potential future friendship.
In all cases try not to make her angry even if you know it's going to make her upset. Upset is something you can talk about together. Angry just leads to bad decisions.
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Speaking as someone who has far too much experience ending relationships, I'd recommend against going to her and saying "I'm breaking up with you."
Instead, start by discussing your relationship issues around touch and intimacy. Explain that these are really important to you and a vital part of what separates a marriage partner from a best friend, and that the two of you need to decide together which of those two things your future relationship is going to be.
You probably won't get anywhere in one session, and it's okay to let it sit for a few days while she thinks about it. During that time, try to be as supportive and wonderful of a partner as you know how to be.
Eventually you'll have to get back to this topic. She might realize that she'd rather start having more sex than lose you, or she might acknowledge some event in her past that makes her feel this way and agree to seek outside help, or she might be relieved to have a ready escape hatch from a relationship she's also unsure about.
In any case, try to make the decision as mutual as possible. If she cares about your feelings at all she won't demand that you give up sex for life for her. This approach gives her a framework for making the decision about whether to try to change herself or end her engagement.
Even partnerships that are in the process of failing are still partnerships. Don't do anything unilaterally, be open and honest about your feelings, desires, and goals, and then decide whether you want to try to work through a long and hard solution that keeps you together or accept the long and hard process of extricating your romantic feelings from your potential future friendship.
In all cases try not to make her angry even if you know it's going to make her upset. Upset is something you can talk about together. Angry just leads to bad decisions.
+1
at least give her a chance to work on herself. if you've been going along with it for a long time she probably doesn't know this is seriously a relationship-ending issue for you.
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I'm a bit worried that if OP's SO starts to "work on it", she may be pushing herself into something which she will not be comfortable with long-term, with the result that things default back to where they are now (and in the past it was only ever sex every two weeks at best) and OP will find himself back in the same position he is in now but much closer to the wedding, or even after it.
I'd suggest something like "I love you. But our relationship has become one of friends and room mates rather than lovers, so it seems to me that it wouldn't be right for us to get married."
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Thanks for all the replies so far. Glad to I’m not the only person that has gone through this sort of thing.
I’m also deeply embarrassed because all my family and friends were looking forward to our wedding. I get along with her parents and sister really well also.
I'd recommend against giving up on the relationship completely. Just because its not time for a marriage doesn't mean that the relationship cant be saved.
Take it to counseling and see if it can help. The chance of success is worth the time and money.
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I'd recommend against giving up on the relationship completely. Just because its not time for a marriage doesn't mean that the relationship cant be saved.
Take it to counseling and see if it can help. The chance of success is worth the time and money.
That's all well and good, but don't get married either. There's a lot of middle ground between marriage and dumpsville. Don't feel compelled to pick one or the other.
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Eventually you'll have to get back to this topic. She might realize that she'd rather start having more sex than lose you, or she might acknowledge some event in her past that makes her feel this way and agree to seek outside help, or she might be relieved to have a ready escape hatch from a relationship she's also unsure about.
In any case, try to make the decision as mutual as possible. If she cares about your feelings at all she won't demand that you give up sex for life for her.
I would say, "BEWARE". If she does these things its calculated to keep you, not because she has changed. Thinking that she changed because you gave her a warning shot happens far too often. The no sex will pop its head up the day after the ring goes on, or worse, the day after shes pregnant.
Give her time to change, if that's what you want, but it appears you already have.
If that's the case, just dump her, spend that psychic energy on yourself and let her worry about her own issues. You're not a miracle worker, you're a human being with your own issues and happiness to worry about. Its not like you will be friends with your old GF who wont hug you.
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This is a fascinating thread, indeed.
But there should be no question- dump this chick. Choice of spouse is one of the top 10 decisions we make. Get it right the first time.
Sorry you're going through this, OP.
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I'd recommend against giving up on the relationship completely. Just because its not time for a marriage doesn't mean that the relationship cant be saved.
Take it to counseling and see if it can help. The chance of success is worth the time and money.
That's all well and good, but don't get married either. There's a lot of middle ground between marriage and dumpsville. Don't feel compelled to pick one or the other.
Both of these. She's your fiancée. Try further counselling. Professional counselling. These are very common issues, and it's amazing what a skilled third party who knows the right questions to ask can draw out and uncover about the real causes of a situation..
Even if you break up, both of you will understand the root causes of what happened and begin to heal from them and have better relationships later. And if it resolves things, even better!
I need wayyyy more touch and physical closeness than DH does, and used to always initiate. It was toughest a few years into the marriage. With intention and communication, we got to a much better place now and things are good. Really, really good. You've been together six or seven years, you said? There's a lot of things can be at the root of this. I wouldn't just end things based on a symptom. Get to the root.
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I wouldn't just end things based on a symptom.
On the other hand, if he does end things and move on to other women, he's going to be blown away the first time a girl he's dating tries to mount him in the back of a taxi cab. I can already see his next relationship having the exact opposite problem with lust overcoming good sense and obscuring real relationship problems, if he's spent so long with someone for whom sex doesn't exist. He might as well be 19 again.
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I would end things if they don't improve. I would continue the counseling and see if there is improvement but after 3 months of counseling I would expect some. I'd push the wedding off for 2-3 years to see how things go.
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Damn, breaking up with a life partner because they aren't interested in engaging in an arbitrary physical act with the same frequency as you would prefer? What about all the more important things in a relationship, like the common goals, the time you share together, and the history between you? Not to mention "love", assuming you believe in that. Why cast that all aside over an arbitrary physical act?
If you want sex, there are many ways to get it without a relationship. Maybe you could investigate whether your partner is okay with you having sex outside the relationship in order to satisfy that need, while the emotional exclusivity remains between you and your wife.
Some of the the replies here just blow me away. I suppose it's clearer than ever that I will never have a romantic relationship though.
+1
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Take it to counseling and see if it can help. The chance of success is worth the time and money.
We have. Four appointments so far over two months.
Nothing has changed.
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Damn, breaking up with a life partner because they aren't interested in engaging in an arbitrary physical act with the same frequency as you would prefer?
As people have widely discussed above, this isn't just about different preferences for an arbitrary physical act. It's about one partner failing to listen to the other partner's expressed feelings and needs.
Second, I think people in this thread are neatly divided into two camps. The half that includes Cathy and ykphil can't understand why you would leave someone just because they don't want sex (the "love is about more than sex" camp), and the other half can't understand why you would ever be with someone who doesn't want sex (the "sex is what defines romantic love" camp).
I think I can understand both sides, but I'm pretty firmly in camp number two. I love my sister, but the reason I'm not going to marry her is because we won't ever have sex. I could share a house with her, share finances, raise children, grow old, and generally have a great time every day. But it would never be a romantic relationship.
To my mind, romantic love is always founded on either sexual attraction or (via the oppressive patriarchy) some sense of ownership that excludes other sexual options. Love is a beautiful and expansive things and I don't mean to demean the love you feel for your best childhood friend, or your mother, or your dog, or the Grateful Dead. But those types of love are not romantic love, and I can say so with certainty because you're not having sex with any of them.
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TOTALLY agree with all of these. I too have a lower libido than my BF, but the big differences are a) I ACTIVELY work on trying to make him happy in this way (and after reading some of y'all's posts I'm thinking maybe I should try getting off hormonal BC?) and b) I love other kinds of physical intimacy (hugs, kisses, massages, snuggling). the lack of ANY of that would make me feel so unloved and totally insane!!!
Definitely a good idea. It bothers me how readily people are willing to mess with their bodies' natural hormonal chemistry. Hormones are some of the most powerful substances in development and psychological well-being, and ingesting said hormones (especially reproductive ones) is bound to produce some unwanted consequences. A quick search brought up some changes in the likelihood of some cancers (up and down): http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/causes-prevention/risk/hormones/oral-contraceptives-fact-sheet (http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/causes-prevention/risk/hormones/oral-contraceptives-fact-sheet)
If condoms are out of the question, non-hormonal IUDs are are a viable option... Let your body do its thing!
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Damn, breaking up with a life partner because they aren't interested in engaging in an arbitrary physical act with the same frequency as you would prefer? What about all the more important things in a relationship, like the common goals, the time you share together, and the history between you? Not to mention "love", assuming you believe in that. Why cast that all aside over an arbitrary physical act?
If you want sex, there are many ways to get it without a relationship. Maybe you could investigate whether your partner is okay with you having sex outside the relationship in order to satisfy that need, while the emotional exclusivity remains between you and your wife.
Some of the the replies here just blow me away. I suppose it's clearer than ever that I will never have a romantic relationship though.
I couldn't ever imagine going off somewhere else to have sex and then come back and be happy couple. That sickens me at the thought. I consider myself a loyal and faithful partner and my best friends Dad cheated on his wife and I swore I would never ever to that to anyone. I would never make that compromise. This is just me and how I feel about it based on my up-bringing and family morals.
And it isn't just about the sex as a physical act. This might sound like I'm just a horny guy that needs to release some sort of urge.
I can assure you it is not!
This is about feeling a deep connection, trust, emotional vulnerability and overall closer relationship to my partner. It is absolutely soul destroying when you open yourself up and put yourself in a situation where you want to connect with your partner and she just crushes your self confidence when she rejects you time after time.
Perhaps one night you just want to snuggle on the couch when watching a movie with the woman/man you are in love with. I can't do that. I just get rejected when I mention it or get closer or put my arm around her.
What about when your partner is brushing her teeth and night and you come up behind her and wrap your arms around her stomach to hold and hug her and lock eyes in the mirror? I can't do that either as I just get told not to.
It's pretty horrible to live through it.
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The fiancee secretly wants to break up but doesn't want to be seen as the one who ended things.
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The fiancee secretly wants to break up but doesn't want to be seen as the one who ended things.
I think this is a distinct possibility. She wouldn't be the first woman to apply this tactic in order to avoid feeling responsible for a relationship she wanted to end.
Which is still a cop out. If I wanted out of my marriage I could punch my wife in the face so she would leave me for domestic assault. Just because she would be the one doing the leaving doesn't mean it wouldn't be my fault.
OP, are you 100% sure she actually wants to marry you? I would certainly have my doubts, if my partner acted in the way you describe.
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Perhaps one night you just want to snuggle on the couch when watching a movie with the woman/man you are in love with. I can't do that. I just get rejected when I mention it or get closer or put my arm around her.
What about when your partner is brushing her teeth and night and you come up behind her and wrap your arms around her stomach to hold and hug her and lock eyes in the mirror? I can't do that either as I just get told not to.
It's pretty horrible to live through it.
Again, these exact situations happened to my partner with his ex wife. (We are Kiwis too). Today he is a ruined man, a decade after meeting her, and deeply regrets walking down the aisle. Can you guess what happened on the wedding night? Nothing. And pretty much every night since then? No cuddles, touches, no funny stuff in the hallway, nothing physical at all. It drove him mad. He would lie awake each night desperate for some sort of human physical connection. He put on a brave face and got on with it as he is a good and kind man.
But by the end he was so unhappy that she was unhappy too. Which is another aspect to consider - from her side. So she may be asexual, and there is nothing wrong with that, except someone who is not asexual should not marry her. Can you imagine being a woman married to a man you love, but who has a deep unhappiness that you are not able to fulfil, because you were just not made that way? It;s a recipe for depression.
Despite the awkwardness, the hassle, the pain, it will never get better. I almost want to get your phone number so the two of you can chat!
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Even partnerships that are in the process of failing are still partnerships.
This. If my partner came to me and said, "I want to break up cause we don't have enough 'intimacy'," (aka sex) I'd think he was a total a$$hole and things would NOT go well in our separation. I completely agree with what Sol said about making your case abundantly clear - "I need you to decide if you want to be my friend or my spouse." I'm wondering why the sense of urgency to get out. If you've been having problems for 4 years (which means a lot of resentment and frustration built up), it could take some time to work out.
Can I reframe the question... What if your therapist (or fiancee) said, "We've got a diagnosis (maybe it's medical). She'll recover and you'll have great intimacy, but it could take six months or a year." Would you stay?
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Even partnerships that are in the process of failing are still partnerships.
This. If my partner came to me and said, "I want to break up cause we don't have enough 'intimacy'," (aka sex) I'd think he was a total a$$hole and things would NOT go well in our separation. I completely agree with what Sol said about making your case abundantly clear - "I need you to decide if you want to be my friend or my spouse." I'm wondering why the sense of urgency to get out. If you've been having problems for 4 years (which means a lot of resentment and frustration built up), it could take some time to work out.
Can I reframe the question... What if your therapist (or fiancee) said, "We've got a diagnosis (maybe it's medical). She'll recover and you'll have great intimacy, but it could take six months or a year." Would you stay?
That is basically what we did. I decided I wanted to be my SO's spouse, not friend, and besides the lifestyle factors mentioned I also went to my doctor to chat, and after appointments with a few others was prescribed a treatment for an issue I'd had the whole time that made sex difficult and painful. Check if it's not something like that with her too if you want to continue this relationship, but for us it took a year to start to really work well together again because there were emotional things to get through as well as treatment.
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Even partnerships that are in the process of failing are still partnerships.
I'm wondering why the sense of urgency to get out. If you've been having problems for 4 years (which means a lot of resentment and frustration built up), it could take some time to work out.
Can I reframe the question... What if your therapist (or fiancee) said, "We've got a diagnosis (maybe it's medical). She'll recover and you'll have great intimacy, but it could take six months or a year." Would you stay?
Things in life build up and then hit a point where enough is enough. I reached that point in early January.
Yes of course I'd stay.
It's like a job. If the pay is good, the work is challenging and fun, your workmates are great but you hate your boss completely. The other dozen things are great but the only thing you think of is the crappy boss. After a while, you just leave the job because you can't stand that one thing.
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She might not be aware, but she is completely checked out of this relationship through her contentment and (lack of) actions. I'm curious what she would say if you asked her why she wants to marry you and what makes you as a couple any different from just a couple of close friends. Close friends don't marry.
I'm also curious what she would say if you suggested you get your needs fulfilled elsewhere. Its abit f-ed up according to some peoples standards yes, but it certainly isn't cheating.
How about you start a discussion with her and ask some tough, critical questions regarding your issues that needs to be solved or you will have to break up. Put some ultimatums out there.
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OP, you have never said whether she responded to your concern, in therapy or otherwise. What is the reason she has given for treating you like this?
Frankly, at this point, I would just let her read this thread.
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Damn, breaking up with a life partner because they aren't interested in engaging in an arbitrary physical act with the same frequency as you would prefer? What about all the more important things in a relationship, like the common goals, the time you share together, and the history between you? Not to mention "love", assuming you believe in that. Why cast that all aside over an arbitrary physical act?
If you want sex, there are many ways to get it without a relationship. Maybe you could investigate whether your partner is okay with you having sex outside the relationship in order to satisfy that need, while the emotional exclusivity remains between you and your wife.
Barf.
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Whenever I go to hold her in a hug to show I’m happy to see her home after a day at work or go to kiss her, she gets all defensive.
This right here. Wow.
Free yourself. Right now.
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Like mm1970, my husband and I have had pretty long dry spells during pregnancy and the postpartum period. In that case, there was a distinct hormonal reason, and the lack of sleep didn't help. I kind of relate to the OP's partner's reaction to the OP, since I have also responded negatively to being touched. In my circumstance, it was having young children in my arms and being manhandled by them all day. It was not fair, but in my mind I just thought of sex and intimacy as one more thing on my "to do" list, as another person who wanted something from me. I have learned, of course, not to think this way. I love my husband deeply. I am still attracted to him. There is no one else I would want to be with. It would break my heart if he wanted to divorce me because we weren't having sex as frequently as he wanted. Honestly it would lead me to step up more. If she doesn't when "threatened" (I don't actually think it's a threat) with the relationship ending, then I do think it is best to end it. Plus you two are still not married and don't have kids. These matters will likely make things much harder.
I'm interested in the idea that a marriage is defined as "sexless" if you only have sex 10 times a year.
I would agree with those who have mentioned the problems surrounding hormonal birth control. I was on it for only a year, and let me tell you - it really did its job. I never felt like having sex anyway. I was an asexual being. It sucked that this was our first year of marriage. The same happened to me on antidepressants. I decided then and there that I had to find a way to regulate my depression without pills.
I want to mention one more thing. Before I had children, sex was oftentimes painful for me. I went to a gynecologist to explore why but never really got a reason. After my first, I was amazed at how much nicer sex was. I'm certainly not saying, "Go ahead and have kids and then see how your sex life is....." I just wanted to point out that sexuality is often very complicated.
What about orgasms and masturbation? I ask mainly to bring out the fact that she might not have discovered her sexuality yet. Some women can be late bloomers in that department. Without this, they might just think of sex as a chore or a service to their partner rather than a mutually pleasurable experience. I.e. when you have had sex, was the sex good? For you? For her?
Ultimately, it sounds like you have made the decision. I also couldn't be with someone who rejected hugs and kisses. It also sounds like she hasn't explained to you why. All this rejection and lack of knowledge must really be painful for you. You really have my sympathies.
Having said that, just because one's sex life is good doesn't mean that one's relationship is. If I had to choose between a good sex life and a good marriage, I would choose the latter. Not saying they are mutually exclusive, but one does not equal the other, despite what people have said. In another marriage thread, I had written about my present struggles with sex frequency, and one regular commenter said that my husband was "thinking of divorce and probably surfing porn." I'm glad to see more varied views on here. Ykphil, you are awesome.
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Damn, breaking up with a life partner because they aren't interested in engaging in an arbitrary physical act with the same frequency as you would prefer? What about all the more important things in a relationship, like the common goals, the time you share together, and the history between you? Not to mention "love", assuming you believe in that. Why cast that all aside over an arbitrary physical act?
Physical affection is a legitimate channel for two people to feel connected to each other. It's no more "an arbitrary act" than acts of verbal communication. If my partner lost interest in having periodic talks with me, and spurned attempts at conversation, I'd feel similarly isolated and rejected -- and unloved.
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Take it to counseling and see if it can help. The chance of success is worth the time and money.
We have. Four appointments so far over two months.
Nothing has changed.
Umm...that's not enough time or frequency for counseling to be effective. I would urge you to give it a bit more time/effort than 4 sessions/2 months.
Like others have said, if she's having a medical issue (physical or mental), that could take some time to sort out.
Also like others have said, have you brought this up in therapy and what has her response been? It's a totally different situation depending on what she says -- "F you, I hate sex and we're never having it" vs. "Omg I love you I just don't know why I can't handle physical intimacy right now." Totally different scenarios and if she's reacting like my first example, then I would rescind all previous advice about giving it more time...
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Whenever I go to hold her in a hug to show I’m happy to see her home after a day at work or go to kiss her, she gets all defensive.
This right here. Wow.
Free yourself. Right now.
Maybe she just doesn't want to be touched without warning? From the OP's posts, it sounds like he believes he should be free to touch his partner from behind, with no warning. Touching is something that requires consent and asking permission. In the context of some relationships, there might be an overriding agreement that touching can be done without asking specific permission first, but that may not be what the OP's partner expects.
I am a bit disturbed by all the suggestions of "counselling" personally. It sounds pretty horrific to me to be faced with an implicit ultimatum of "either you let me have sex with you, or I break up with you". It would not be an exaggeration to say that, if she later does "consent" to touching, I would have serious doubts over whether the consent was given voluntarily or simply out of extreme pressure. To make a very provocative claim: Using counselling as a device to pressure somebody into sex could be akin to a sexual assault.
Um, wow. No. I agree with you that the OP's fiancee may not enjoy unexpected touching, and she has every right to not allow OP to sneak up on her. However, you're incredibly off base on the nature of couple's counseling...
First of all, any halfway decent therapist will not allow a counseling session to become a situation in which ultimatums and extreme pressure are happening.
Secondly, suggestions of seeking counseling, at least from me, are intended to provide both OP and his fiancee with a safe space to work out the WHY behind how they both are feeling about this issue. Not a way for either one of them to "win" and get what they want in their relationship. Couple's therapists aren't supposed to take sides and validate one member of the couple's opinion or preference; they're supposed to help both members of a couple reach agreeable compromises and work through their emotions/preferences/motivations/subconscious feelings about certain subjects. If as counseling progresses, the couple realizes that they're incompatible, the counselor will help them transition out of the relationship in the least damaging way possible.
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I do not see how "Sex or I leave" is sexual assault any more than "Do your share around the house or I leave" is slavery or "I want a future with/without children, or I leave" is taking control of someone else's reproductive choices.
People get to make decisions. Just because you present someone with an unpleasant decision doesn't mean you are abusive. Threatening someone's physical safety is one thing. Defining what you want your life to look like and inviting them to decide if they are in or out is another, entirely. Of COURSE someone's emotional security is threatened by the prospect of a relationship ending. It's still OK to dump someone if you aren't getting what you want/need from the relationship.
I think counseling is recommended by everyone in this case because the hope is to be sure that what OP wants out of a potential marriage has been clearly communicated, and rebuffed with no attempt at compromise, before he jumps ship. Not to "pressure" someone into having sex that they don't want. If this is really something she doesn't want to change, then it's time to confirm that, and leave.
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@Cathy
I think what you are saying will make many on here uncomfortable, but I am nonetheless glad you wrote it. I have to push you though. Do you think counseling is ever indicated then? What about when other emotional needs are not being met in a relationship? Counseling is a way to air out grievances and hopefully bring two people closer together again.
If one side of a relationship can't expect the other side to change in any way, then all relationships are doomed.
I would, however, hope that counseling would revolve not around the OP's fiance agreeing to have sex however often he wanted. I don't imagine that is how it transpires. Rather, I think it would open up a discussion about how often they would be intimate in the future and that the result would involve compromise on both sides.
It is interesting how some on here expect a specific amount of sex regardless of the wishes of their partners. It reminds me of discussions I have read about the number of kids a couple might want and the notion that someone not wanting any more overrides the wishes of the individual who wants another or a first child. In that circumstance, the negative vote supposedly overrides the positive. In the case of sex, we seem to be saying the opposite. The implication is that having sex in perpetuity when you might not want to is supposedly required and not that big of a deal, whereas raising another child to please your spouse is too much to ask.
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I expect sex in my relationship, and if my partner doesn't want to have sex anymore, then we do not want the same things, and need to see if we can come to some sort of agreement, or we part ways, hopefully without rancor.
Ditto on if I desperately wanted a second child, and he did NOT. I don't get to have sex/another child without his buy-in, but I am not bound to remain in a relationship that prohibits me from having things that are important to me. It does not make me a shitty person for not staying in a relationship that requires I surrender my priorities, and it does not make him a shitty person for not giving me what I want. It makes us two OK people with incompatible expectations from life.
Edit to change double sentence.
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If you are caught up on the "sex" thing, pretend it's something else.
One partner really, really likes walks to talk about "how was your day?" after work and feels incredibly close when having these conversations. The other only wants "serious" conversations and is completely and utterly unsympathetic towards the other's needs and desires for "light" conversation.
When talking about it, the other basically indicates they have no interest in trying to meet that need for the other, understanding they will constantly feel rejected and lonely if they don't have the need for "light" conversation met. They don't care about this need not being met and are completely ok with that situation - understanding them not wanting to attempt to have light conversation will result in the other feeling lonely and unloved.
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There is nothing coercive about saying: these are my needs, if you cannot meet them, we need to part ways. I sincerely doubt that the OP wants any part of a forced encounter with his SO. To suggest this shows a profound lack of understanding/knowledge about the basic need for physical contact that humans are born with. Unless your partner is willing to go without, denying him/her affection is cruel.
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I do not see how "Sex or I leave" is sexual assault any more than "Do your share around the house or I leave" is slavery or "I want a future with/without children, or I leave" is taking control of someone else's reproductive choices.
I think a huge part of the problem is that people focus on having sex too much rather than giving the other person a reason to want it. I think it is extremely important in a relationship but in this context it is framed as "what do I have to say to make sure he/she has sex with me" rather than what can I do to make myself someone that they want to have sex with.
If someone is nagging you to have sex it becomes a chore and something that you begin to loathe. If they nag more it makes it even less appealing. If you work on being someone that they want to have sex with it lifts the pressure. Maybe work out more, maybe do something to show them you care, maybe show them you appreciate and value everything they bring to your life. I think most people would be a lot more successful with that approach rather than pointing at a calendar saying it's been x amount of days, take your clothes off.
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Damn, breaking up with a life partner because they aren't interested in engaging in an arbitrary physical act with the same frequency as you would prefer? What about all the more important things in a relationship, like the common goals, the time you share together, and the history between you? Not to mention "love", assuming you believe in that. Why cast that all aside over an arbitrary physical act?
If you want sex, there are many ways to get it without a relationship. Maybe you could investigate whether your partner is okay with you having sex outside the relationship in order to satisfy that need, while the emotional exclusivity remains between you and your wife.
Some of the the replies here just blow me away. I suppose it's clearer than ever that I will never have a romantic relationship though.
This is not really about the sex, it is about compatibility. Intimacy, touching, sex are important to the OP...his partner will not give these to him and apparently she doesn't care to change (according to OP). Why on earth would anyone marry someone who does not share a core value that is important to you? If marrying someone religious is important to you should you marry an atheist? If frugality is important to you should you marry a spendthrift? OP should be in a relationship with someone who will make him happy. Maybe some people don't care about physical intimacy...but the vast majority do, including the OP. Sex and physical contact is not "arbitrary" to the OP. To say so dismisses his feelings and concerns.
Another example. Lets say OP meets his partner and they talk for hours every day at first. Everything is good. Six years into the relationship she never wants to talk any more. She will only talk for a minute or two a day and any time the OP tries to talk she refuses to engage. Should he stay with her because he shouldn't be concerned about the frequency and duration of such an "arbitrary act" like verbal communication?
Also maybe keeping the relationship and outsourcing sex would work for a few people, most want one stop shopping. Would you stay in a relationship with absolutely no physical contact if this was important to you?
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Um...He has already decided what he wants out of a relationship. He COULD change his expectations, and counseling might get him to dial them back, but he doesn't have to. She doesn't either. If his idea of options is that he will stay in the relationship if she puts out on schedule, even if she's lying like a limp rag while they have intercourse...yuck, unless that's a kink they share. If it's "let's explore whether it would be possible to have more physical affection in this relationship." and they find out if they can reach a spot where they are both happy with it, that's something else entirely.
Sex is only irrelevant to a relationship if it is irrelevant to both people in the relationship.
I do not love organized religion. I will not treat people badly because of it, but if my partner "found god" I would divorce him. Lots of people think that would be silly, but it is a thing that is important to me.
Some people are vegetarians, and will not live with someone who eats meat. I like meat, but I can still understand someone who might leave a relationship because of that incompatibility.
There is NOTHING WRONG with not wanting to have sex. But there is also nothing wrong, shallow, ridiculous, etc, about wanting sex and having it be an important component of a romantic relationship for a person. It DOES make it tough for someone who is aesexual to have a romantic relationship when people who like sex tie it up with their idea of a romantic relationship. That still doesn't make it wrong for all the people who like sex to make it part of their version of romance.
People who like useless gifts like flowers and jewelry as expressions of romance don't suck either,(though it would suck for me to be in a relationship with one of them) even though it isn't particularly Mustachian. It doesn't make them foolish or bad to leave an otherwise good relationship if a large component of what makes them feel loved/important/happy is not a part of that relationship.
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Yes.
the end.
i feel myself getting pissy after a week. cannot imagine only 2x per year. even 2x per month and i would be in a horrible mood pretty much all the time.
edit:
i think most people would find it insanely hard to maintain a marriage where one partner wants that physical contact including frequent sex, while the other doesn't want any physical contact or sex unless it is on their terms and time schedule.
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But that said, I don't see why you would choose to end a relationship over this in the first place. It's awfully presumptuous to assume that OP's partner wants him to "constantly feel rejected and lonely". I see no evidence of that in the narrative we've read. It seems to me that OP has a certain set of expectations, that he can touch his partner whenever he wants, including sneaking up on her with she is brushing her teeth, or grabbing her as she walks in the door after an exhausting day of work, all without asking for permission or obtaining consent.
Relationships have two people with different needs to varying degrees.
Healthy relationships involve both working to meet the other's needs. They do not have one partner basically shrugging off stated needs of the other and (from what we've read, at lesat) not even attempting to talk through or work through the differences. A healthy relationship has both working to understand the other's needs, understanding their own needs, and working together to meet their needs together as a couple. This does not appear to be happening in the OP's relationship.
And for what it's worth, people have different ways they receive/give love. For some people, hugs are incredibly meaningful to both give/get. Acting as if desiring physical contact and closeness is "wholly irrelevant to a relationship" is utterly ridiculous.
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Take it to counseling and see if it can help. The chance of success is worth the time and money.
We have. Four appointments so far over two months.
Nothing has changed.
Umm...that's not enough time or frequency for counseling to be effective. I would urge you to give it a bit more time/effort than 4 sessions/2 months.
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I agree with this. And I think calling off the wedding doesn't necessarily need to be the end of the relationship, so I might dial back a bit from thoughts of "can't tell her until I've packed my suitcase 'cos I'll have to leave immediately". Perhaps you could consider suggesting in your next counselling session that until you have worked through your problems, it would be a good idea to remove the pressure of a wedding. It does sound a bit like you had kind of made up your mind and were glad to get some feedback from people here that it'd be okay to break up with her but just thought I'd throw the idea out there of not necessarily going full-tilt at a break-up immediately.
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OP, you have never said whether she responded to your concern, in therapy or otherwise. What is the reason she has given for treating you like this?
Frankly, at this point, I would just let her read this thread.
"I'm just not that into it" is her standard response. "I'm just not a touchy, feeley person"
Which goes full circle when I say it is extremely important for me to be able to hug and kiss and hold hands walking down the street, etc.
It's like someone who's favorite thing to do is go running or swimming. They "need" to do this to feel complete. Then one day, someone comes along and takes that away from you. You can still chat away with the person, you are friends, you cook meals and share the same house, but you always resent this person for taking that away from you, no matter how well everything else in life is going, that is the thing always on the front of your mind when you see this person.
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OP, you have never said whether she responded to your concern, in therapy or otherwise. What is the reason she has given for treating you like this?
Frankly, at this point, I would just let her read this thread.
"I'm just not that into it" is her standard response. "I'm just not a touchy, feeley person"
Which goes full circle when I say it is extremely important for me to be able to hug and kiss and hold hands walking down the street, etc.
It's like someone who's favorite thing to do is go running or swimming. They "need" to do this to feel complete. Then one day, someone comes along and takes that away from you. You can still chat away with the person, you are friends, you cook meals and share the same house, but you always resent this person for taking that away from you, no matter how well everything else in life is going, that is the thing always on the front of your mind when you see this person.
You have had a lot of great advice in this thread, but it appears that all indicators are saying that while you may be compatible as friends, you are not compatible as a couple.
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It's like someone who's favorite thing to do is go running or swimming... but you always resent this person for taking that away from you.
It's far worse than that, though. Sex/intimacy is a key element of almost all romantic relationships; it's an absolute biological need for most of us, almost on par with eating, drinking, and sleeping; and it's an activity you can't ethically carry on with one anyone else, assuming you're in a traditional relationship like 99.9% of us. So, no one else besides your romantic partner can meet that need for you, unlike other needs for companionship, workout partners, talking, shared interests, political debates, drinking buddies, and so on.
I guess what I'm saying is I'm agreeing with you and then some, and there's no reasonable way to continue a relationship where this need of yours is being unmet. Hope you can work it out with her, but on the assumption you two are just on different wavelengths on this issue, good for you for taking the steps to recognize it and move on.
For what it's worth, I was not getting the level of sexual satisfaction I wanted in my first marriage. Now that I'm on my second marriage, it is 1 million percent better -- I would never go back to the way things were in marriage #1. There is life after this relationship, and probably a much better/more compatible one.
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In general I would agree that this relationship won't work out and most of the advice given above is good but I do want to make one comment:
Be conscious of how you're initiating the physical contact. DH has a habit of touching/caressing at the worst times. Giving me a hug from behind while I'm brushing my teeth would be a bad time as I'm likely to drool toothpasty spit all over myself. When I'm cooking or talking on the phone annoys me too. That being said I'm very much into physical contact/intimacy normally (it's one of my love languages) it's just a big turn off in the wrong situations.
There are certainly inappropriate times, but based on an earlier post I doubt that is the case:
Whenever I go to hold her in a hug to show I’m happy to see her home after a day at work or go to kiss her, she gets all defensive. I’ve brought this up over and over again at the counselling sessions and it is driving a wedge between us. I’ve read up on “sexless” marriages and it seems to be more common than people think. I just find it really difficult to live with someone who I find incredibly attractive but can’t even kiss her without fear of being rejected and the emotional roller coaster that comes with it. She has said she just isn’t an affectionate person but it is soul destroying when you go to hug or kiss someone and they flat out reject you time after time. I’ve tried not initiating touch but then I went two weeks without a hug, kiss goodnight, etc.
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There's a difference between an ultimatum and breaking up over incompatibilities. If you are fundamentally incompatible with your partner, then sure, breaking up is probably a likely outcome. But that's different from framing it as a choice that your partner can make.
I was once rejected by somebody for the stated reason that I was not interested in having sex. I don't know whether that was his actual reason. It may have been one of many reasons, but it's the the reason he chose to state when rejecting me. I can tell you how that made me feel. It felt horrible, like I would never be able to be loved by anybody, because the world fixates on arbitrary things that are wholly irrelevant to a relationship. Before then, I actually imagined that one day I might have a successful romantic relationship, but since then I've realised it's impossible and not worth the pain. It was a very difficult experience.
One of my best friends is asexual and has been happily married in a reasonably sex-free marriage for more than 25 years now. Early on the relationship required some intense negotiations and they settled on a fairly open marriage where he was free to have sexual relationships with others (but not intimate emotional relationships) and she was free to have platonic romantic relationships with others (but not sexual relationships). It was mysterious to me since I couldn't understand what a platonic affair was even after she explained it to me several times, but that's my problem not hers.
I say this to point out that it is not impossible to find what you want in the world. The hard part is knowing what you want, asking for it, and being willing to negotiate to meet both your own needs and your partner's. Don't give up on a loving asexual relationship if this is what you want. Just be aware that this is a kink that most people don't share. :)
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For fuck sake there is some ridiculous advice in here. People seem to be living under a rock. The OP is 27, he's not even in his prime yet and should not be worried about a "compromise" on this "arbitrary physical act." If he doesn't have some sort of extreme physical deformity or autism he will find another partner. Sure the breakup will be painful, but its only temporary. I see so many guys in late 20s and 30s who are unhappy because they are tied down from taking the path of least resistance.
I'm sure some people will be butthurt about this post, but if OP read it and considered it in any type of way, I made a positive difference.
smh
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stlbrah- Right on, brother. I'm with you on this.
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I think counseling is recommended by everyone in this case because the hope is to be sure that what OP wants out of a potential marriage has been clearly communicated, and rebuffed with no attempt at compromise, before he jumps ship. Not to "pressure" someone into having sex that they don't want. If this is really something she doesn't want to change, then it's time to confirm that, and leave.
The goal of counseling isn't necessarily to stay together. It's also to help figure out if you don't want to be together, and to help with an exit strategy. At least that's what a good therapist does.
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I would think you would know, but everything you describe sounds like an abuse victim. You think there's something from her past she hasn't let you in on?
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Marriage is rough. Having kids together is rough. In my experience, 2nd time in, 3rd for DH, having a sexual bond is a huge help. Sharing a pleasurable experience, being vulnerable and trusting your partner makes up for spats over schedules or meal planning or whatever you bicker about. Being in a sexless marriage in your mid-20s sounds pretty awful. That said, my dh and I have drpped down to 1x/month more than once due to stress, pregnancy and postpartum.
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It sounds like the OP wants something different from what he has. I think it's totally fine to pursue counseling if you think that will make a difference. If you don't think it'll make a difference, and you know in your gut that this is a long-standing issue that won't be resolved, then don't waste your time.
I know that our societal expectations tell us that men want sex more than women, and I just have to say that every person is different. I've been in more than one relationship that's ended due to disparate sexual desires (ie. mine was notably higher than his). It totally sucks when you think that the person you're with is amazing, but they just refuse to take off their stupid clothes. There's nothing you can you do besides leave and look for someone more compatible elsewhere.
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For fuck sake there is some ridiculous advice in here. People seem to be living under a rock. The OP is 27, he's not even in his prime yet and should not be worried about a "compromise" on this "arbitrary physical act." If he doesn't have some sort of extreme physical deformity or autism he will find another partner. Sure the breakup will be painful, but its only temporary. I see so many guys in late 20s and 30s who are unhappy because they are tied down from taking the path of least resistance.
I'm sure some people will be butthurt about this post, but if OP read it and considered it in any type of way, I made a positive difference.
smh
Most posters have already said this, repeatedly. There are only small minority of posters who seem to feel that he should reconsider staying with his fiance.
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There is much more than sex in a relationship based on love. Personally, I think sex is over-rated, and if I were in a sexless marriage, and as long as I knew that my wife loved me, I would still chose my wife without the sex and I would still be happy, because my wife is the most wonderful, kind, simple, gentle, loving, caring and attractive woman I ever met and I am 100 % sure the lack or absence of sex would not be a reason to leave her.
Sorry to say, but sex is only overrated to those who do not desire sex. To those who do desire sex, it is anything but overrated.
It's been said that when sex is good (good as in both partners are happy and satisfied with status quo whatever that may be), it is 10% of the relationship. But when sex is bad, it is 90% of the relationship.
I'm in a similar boat. My wife and I have a pretty mismatched sex drive, and it causes a pretty terrible feedback loop - The longer I go without sex, the harder it is for me to be intimate without 'pushing' for sex. She's a cuddler, she likes to just lay together, fall asleep or watch a movie together. The problem is when I can't cuddle without something coming up (pun intended).
This either leads me to two things, either I just lay there miserable because my body is getting all ready to go but she's like 'but we just got comfortable!', or she is like 'if you HAVE to, go ahead'.
I've warned her about it, I think for me if I go for more than 3 days without sex, I start to get agitated by things a lot sooner, and I become less receptive to her emotional needs, because I feel like my needs aren't getting met. As you can imagine, when I start to get like this, it is exactly the opposite of what I should be doing to try to woo her and get her in the mood!
One of the biggest things is that she's on the pill, and we've tried several different types. The was one that she was miserable on, but had an ok sex drive, and the one she's on now, the only time she really has any drive is during the time she's on the placebo, but sex during that time is a no-go for her, so the only real good times are right on the edges of that week. But if stressful work days, or other activities or things happen, sex isn't at the top of the priority list for her, so it usually goes by the wayside.
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This is a bit of a thread jack but the topic seems to be coming up a lot -- for anyone with issues with hormonal birth control, you might try/have her try the copper IUD (Paragard). I have a hormonal IUD and I've never had kids but it was still relatively painless to get put in. I'm thinking of switching to the copper one because I think the hormonal one is causing other issues (mood changes, mainly) and from what I've seen it's the best alternative to hormonal birth control that doesn't involve a giant production every time you're trying to get laid... And other than the possible hormone issues, I really really love the IUD -- it's way less stressful than worrying about a pill or other method.
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This is a bit of a thread jack but the topic seems to be coming up a lot -- for anyone with issues with hormonal birth control, you might try/have her try the copper IUD (Paragard). I have a hormonal IUD and I've never had kids but it was still relatively painless to get put in. I'm thinking of switching to the copper one because I think the hormonal one is causing other issues (mood changes, mainly) and from what I've seen it's the best alternative to hormonal birth control that doesn't involve a giant production every time you're trying to get laid... And other than the possible hormone issues, I really really love the IUD -- it's way less stressful than worrying about a pill or other method.
Another perk of IUDs is that they don't increase your chance of a pulmonary embolism or female cancer like hormonal birth control does (a slight increase but still).
We have been perfectly successful with condoms combined with spermicide (also combined with the occasional withdrawal method if I think I am ovulating). I would take the added steps over decreased libido any day. But I can understand that this would be somewhat disconcerting for some. Up until now, an accidental pregnancy didn't seem like the end of the world. Now that we have three kids and the thought of another just about leads me to a panic attack, a vasectomy is already scheduled.
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This is a bit of a thread jack but the topic seems to be coming up a lot -- for anyone with issues with hormonal birth control, you might try/have her try the copper IUD (Paragard). I have a hormonal IUD and I've never had kids but it was still relatively painless to get put in. I'm thinking of switching to the copper one because I think the hormonal one is causing other issues (mood changes, mainly) and from what I've seen it's the best alternative to hormonal birth control that doesn't involve a giant production every time you're trying to get laid... And other than the possible hormone issues, I really really love the IUD -- it's way less stressful than worrying about a pill or other method.
I'll continue the threadjacking here....
My Wife and I have talked about other options before, but whenever IUD comes up, she immediately says 'But I am very tiny' (note, she is, she was a premie and has never been over 90lbs in her life, but is physically fit and has a good physic, healthy, not very tall). Also, she always brings up the 'it could go though the uterus wall' situation.
I'm not sure of the best way to bring this up with her to help her feel more comfortable about it. If I get facts and statistics about the actual odds of this happening her eyes just glaze over.
Part of the reason she disliked the one pill that she did still seem to have a decent sex drive on was because it made her period irregular and heavier. She also worries constantly about Toxic Shock Syndrome b/c she knew someone who had it and almost died when she was young. I've brought up Menstrual cups as an alternative to tampons before, but she won't even consider giving them a try.
She tends to relate more to someone she knows well (other than me, haha) than seeing the hard data about things, and is usually very resistant to change in general.
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This is a bit of a thread jack but the topic seems to be coming up a lot -- for anyone with issues with hormonal birth control, you might try/have her try the copper IUD (Paragard). I have a hormonal IUD and I've never had kids but it was still relatively painless to get put in. I'm thinking of switching to the copper one because I think the hormonal one is causing other issues (mood changes, mainly) and from what I've seen it's the best alternative to hormonal birth control that doesn't involve a giant production every time you're trying to get laid... And other than the possible hormone issues, I really really love the IUD -- it's way less stressful than worrying about a pill or other method.
I'll continue the threadjacking here....
My Wife and I have talked about other options before, but whenever IUD comes up, she immediately says 'But I am very tiny' (note, she is, she was a premie and has never been over 90lbs in her life, but is physically fit and has a good physic, healthy, not very tall). Also, she always brings up the 'it could go though the uterus wall' situation.
I'm not sure of the best way to bring this up with her to help her feel more comfortable about it. If I get facts and statistics about the actual odds of this happening her eyes just glaze over.
Part of the reason she disliked the one pill that she did still seem to have a decent sex drive on was because it made her period irregular and heavier. She also worries constantly about Toxic Shock Syndrome b/c she knew someone who had it and almost died when she was young. I've brought up Menstrual cups as an alternative to tampons before, but she won't even consider giving them a try.
She tends to relate more to someone she knows well (other than me, haha) than seeing the hard data about things, and is usually very resistant to change in general.
I'm 5'2" and was ~115 when I got the IUD put in. They gave me prescription Ibuprofen and two or three oxycodone or something similar; one to take before the appointment and the rest for afterwards. It's really not any more painful than bad cramps or a pap smear. I think period issues are a fairly common side effect with the Paragard (non hormonal IUD) so that might not be good :/ But there is also a new hormonal IUD that came out recently, or is about to come out, that is specifically designed for younger women who haven't had children -- it's a lot smaller than the other two so maybe that would ease her fears? I personally think the hormonal IUDs are still waaaaay superior to hormonal BC pills.
Also, ummm...I wouldn't get within 50 ft of a menstrual cup either so I don't blame her on that one ;P
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The OP's fiance might be asexual and not know it. I was in my second marriage before I knew asexuality was even a thing. I just thought there was something wrong with me. I've always hated sex. I like hugging, kissing, cuddling...except these things can frequently lead to sex, which makes me not want to do them.
For me, it's like this...imagine the grossest chore you routinely do. Like scrubbing down the toilet (a gross toilet). Not fun. But at least you don't have to pretend it's this glorious thing. You grit your teeth, hold your breath, scrub it and then it's clean and you don't have to do it again for another week.
With sex, it's like you have to go through all the deceit of faking like you WANT it. I hate every part of it - increased heart rate, slime wiggling around in my lady parts, nasty nasty nasty. But having to pretend I love it to spare my partner's feelings is even worse. So much easier not to have to go there in the first place.
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Where there's a will, there's a way.
If sex was really important to her and she had issues that made it painful, she would work on findings remedy to those issues. I recently had a minor problem (turned out to be a polyp) that made intercourse painful, and I was more distraught than my husband! I cried and cried because my primary care physician told me that I might just feel this way now that I'm older--forever! We also practiced the "everything but" method until I figured out my problem.
If she was suffering from low libido, it would be something she worried about, too! It seems like sex is just not a priority for her, which is O.K.! But, if it is a priority for you, that's a huge, possibly unsolvable rift in your relationship.
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Damn, breaking up with a life partner because they aren't interested in engaging in an arbitrary physical act with the same frequency as you would prefer? What about all the more important things in a relationship, like the common goals, the time you share together, and the history between you? Not to mention "love", assuming you believe in that. Why cast that all aside over an arbitrary physical act?
If you want sex, there are many ways to get it without a relationship. Maybe you could investigate whether your partner is okay with you having sex outside the relationship in order to satisfy that need, while the emotional exclusivity remains between you and your wife.
Barf.
Yeah, hippies sure are strange.
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Damn, breaking up with a life partner because they aren't interested in engaging in an arbitrary physical act with the same frequency as you would prefer? What about all the more important things in a relationship, like the common goals, the time you share together, and the history between you? Not to mention "love", assuming you believe in that. Why cast that all aside over an arbitrary physical act?
If you want sex, there are many ways to get it without a relationship. Maybe you could investigate whether your partner is okay with you having sex outside the relationship in order to satisfy that need, while the emotional exclusivity remains between you and your wife.
Barf.
Yeah, hippies sure are strange.
I am an aspiring hippie. JP Sears is my guru.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oht9AEq1798
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Damn, breaking up with a life partner because they aren't interested in engaging in an arbitrary physical act with the same frequency as you would prefer? What about all the more important things in a relationship, like the common goals, the time you share together, and the history between you? Not to mention "love", assuming you believe in that. Why cast that all aside over an arbitrary physical act?
If you want sex, there are many ways to get it without a relationship. Maybe you could investigate whether your partner is okay with you having sex outside the relationship in order to satisfy that need, while the emotional exclusivity remains between you and your wife.
Barf.
Yeah, hippies sure are strange.
These are ad-hominem attack based on "couple-privilege".
You don't have a right to attack relationship models that don't fit your own idea of what a "proper" relationship is.
http://www.robot-hugs.com/healthy-relationships/
http://www.robot-hugs.com/questions/
LOL! This is a parody account, right?
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I have been through this as the rejecter. I said most of the things your fiance said, and my partner said most of the things youre saying. During this time, I was on the pill (completely cut my libido), very stressed about work, exhausted every damn night. I had been through the most ill years of my life. I had my weekends constantly overbooked and had nothing to help me relax. There was no time to just "be" with my partner, so I certainly didn't want to be intimate with him! For me, I can only be intimate when we are also being randomly cuddly during the day/week.
Couples counseling is the best thing you could possibly do. To get through it, we did the following:
Went to separate psychologists. We had started this as things went downhill, but we also went to a couple of sessions with the other person and their psychologist.
I got off the pill. He was very resistant to it, both for possibility of getting pregnant and my periods becoming more painful (the reason I'd gone on it), but I'd started other solutions for periods and we're very good with condoms now!
We started regular no-pressure touching, eg hugs, massages of head/back/feet, just holding each other.
We also improved the crap out of our lives. Cut back weekends to one, maybe two outings. I switched projects and offices at work. He finished his degree and has a temporary job. We spent a lot of time talking about everything and going on walks. It took a lot of effort from him when he felt he was just going to get rejected for everything (he kept doing sweet romantic things) and from me to start doing those things for him.
+1
I've read this blog and forum for a while now and never really been compelled to post before reading this OP. I am going through something very similar right now, and I 100% agree with anatidaev. A change in the level of intimacy is never it's own problem; something else is always behind it.
Similar to your situation, we are unmarried but have been together for years. Although we go out and have some separate interests, we are absolutely each other's best friend. Our intimacy followed a very similar slow down to yours as well. Once or twice a month at first. Now, a couple years later, I don't even actively initiate and somedays I actively avoid intimacy. Sparing you all the details, lots of things in our lives have changed since I first met my significant other, but we don't love each other any less.
The way I saw it in my own relationship, I had two options: the relationship was worth the effort of figuring out the root issue and fixing or it wasn't. That goes for both me and my significant other. I decided it was worth it to me, so I approached my significant other about he. It took him a while to understand what I was really asking him. I think at first he just thought I wanted him to end the relationship, because I couldn't; he saw the problem as me just being unsatisfied in our relationship, and we should break up. Several long emotional talks later, and we're on the same page trying to get to the root cause and fix things. We're both reading "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman as a starting point (recommended by someone I know, and hopefully will give us a better idea of what's happening), and we've decided to start going to counseling.
In the end, if you don't both want to put in the effort to figure out what's really going on and fix it, then THAT'S the deal breaker, not the lack of intimacy. Just make sure that your significant other understands that you want to fix this (it sounds like you do), so that she has permission to eventually soften (sounds like she's very upset and defensive right now) and say something is off. I'm sure she's not happy constantly avoiding your hugs and kisses either. Avoidance is a defensive behavior, definitely not a sign that everything is A-Okay.
Wishing you the best!
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This is a bit of a thread jack but the topic seems to be coming up a lot -- for anyone with issues with hormonal birth control, you might try/have her try the copper IUD (Paragard). I have a hormonal IUD and I've never had kids but it was still relatively painless to get put in. I'm thinking of switching to the copper one because I think the hormonal one is causing other issues (mood changes, mainly) and from what I've seen it's the best alternative to hormonal birth control that doesn't involve a giant production every time you're trying to get laid... And other than the possible hormone issues, I really really love the IUD -- it's way less stressful than worrying about a pill or other method.
I'll continue the threadjacking here....
My Wife and I have talked about other options before, but whenever IUD comes up, she immediately says 'But I am very tiny' (note, she is, she was a premie and has never been over 90lbs in her life, but is physically fit and has a good physic, healthy, not very tall). Also, she always brings up the 'it could go though the uterus wall' situation.
I'm not sure of the best way to bring this up with her to help her feel more comfortable about it. If I get facts and statistics about the actual odds of this happening her eyes just glaze over.
Part of the reason she disliked the one pill that she did still seem to have a decent sex drive on was because it made her period irregular and heavier. She also worries constantly about Toxic Shock Syndrome b/c she knew someone who had it and almost died when she was young. I've brought up Menstrual cups as an alternative to tampons before, but she won't even consider giving them a try.
She tends to relate more to someone she knows well (other than me, haha) than seeing the hard data about things, and is usually very resistant to change in general.
Continuing threadjacking, sorry. IUDs and pain here:
https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/is-an-iud-painful-if-so-how-can-i-reduce-the-pain/
Adding to the things one can do to minimize pain, stay with her during the procedure. No substitute for the show of support.
There's a lot of misinformation out there on IUDs. This is compounded by the fact that a majority of people who have problems with it turn out to be the ones that post online and in forums, so a casual reader looking to get information online will probably be misled by the troves of women complaining about their problems with the IUDs.
IUDs unfortunately got a bad rap for the expulsion/perforation problems in the 1980s (that too just one brand which was problematic). Since then there have been IUDs that are vastly safer and efficient to pretty much any method of contraception. A good OB-GYN should discuss these issues with the patient. Moreover, nearly no one recommends the procedure prior to an ultrasound to gauge the size of the uterus. Any uterus about 4 cm wide and 6 cm long should be sufficient. There's also Skyla, which is for smaller women:
https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2013/11/20/how-does-the-sklya-iud-compare-with-the-mirena/
(Note: This is not and should not be taken as medical advice. Consult with an OB-GYN).
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I relied on various forms of birth control for all of my 20s, and the non-hormonal IUD is a winner in my book. It's effective for years, it doesn't mess with a woman's hormones, and it's cheap. Honestly I'm not sure why it's not everyone's first choice, within a sexually exclusive relationship.
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Honestly I'm not sure why it's not everyone's first choice, within a sexually exclusive relationship.
Three reasons why people shoot down IUDs a) pain during insertion, b) perforation/expulsion scare stories (usually anecdotal), and c) non-hormonal IUDs may not recommended by OB-GYNs in case of women having or predisposed to (e.g., genetically) menorrhagia/uterine fibroids. This is the one area where the hormonal IUDs actually score - a good majority of women have lighter periods 3-6 months post insertion of mirena/skyla which in itself might improve moods and sex drive. A smaller percentage stop having periods altogether on the hormonal IUDs.
But, the clear takeaway from several large scientific studies is that IUDs (hormonal/non-hormonal, depending on the woman's body) is possibly the best birth control there is. The pain/cramping can be managed by asking the doctor for a localized anesthetic if a woman's pain threshold is unusually low.
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I'll put in my support of the IUD. I ended up choosing the hormonal one and never had the issues I had with the pills (even low dose pills). (Potential TMi) it also helped so my periods are light to nonexistent - pre-IUD I'd be outta commission 1-2 days each period (reason I didn't go for the non hormonal copper one).
My only current concern is removal when my 5 years is up. But the insertion wasn't horrible (NSAID pain reliever and meditative breathing helped) so I'm hopeful. I did have some bad cramps the day of and after insertion but in the grand scheme so worth it.
Another reason I love my IUD? 5 years of practically free and worry-free birth control. The insurance I had through my employer at the time covered it - I just had to pay the $30 copay for the inpatient specialist visit. Definitely a deal to not have worry about taking a pill or having to schedule a pharmacy run.
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N = 1 here, but regarding IUD insertion, it was the worst pain I have ever experienced. I've had it done twice now and the pain was the same both times (worse the second time, in fact, because the old one had to be removed as well as the new one inserted). It wasn't the cramping, although that was bad and lasted for hours; it was the actual (sorry) cervical breaching.
That said, I love it. I'll probably get a third one, although I will BEG for local anesthetic this time.
This is getting slightly off topic, but I thought I might as well share. :P
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N = 1 here, but regarding IUD insertion, it was the worst pain I have ever experienced. I've had it done twice now and the pain was the same both times (worse the second time, in fact, because the old one had to be removed as well as the new one inserted). It wasn't the cramping, although that was bad and lasted for hours; it was the actual (sorry) cervical breaching
That said, I love it. I'll probably get a third one, although I will BEG for local anesthetic this time.
This is getting slightly off topic, but I thought I might as well share. :P
Sorry to hear you had to go through that with local anesthetic, Cressida. I should clarify that I received a local so beside the shot (which was unpleasant) I just felt an uncomfortable pressure during insertion). I would have figured a local anesthetic was common practice.
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N = 1 here, but regarding IUD insertion, it was the worst pain I have ever experienced. I've had it done twice now and the pain was the same both times (worse the second time, in fact, because the old one had to be removed as well as the new one inserted). It wasn't the cramping, although that was bad and lasted for hours; it was the actual (sorry) cervical breaching.
That said, I love it. I'll probably get a third one, although I will BEG for local anesthetic this time.
This is getting slightly off topic, but I thought I might as well share. :P
Sorry to hear you had to go through that with local anesthetic, Cressida. I should clarify that I received a local so beside the shot (which was unpleasant) I just felt an uncomfortable pressure during insertion). I would have figured a local anesthetic was common practice.
Thanks for the sympathy. I'm glad to read this, because it means (1) local anesthetic is available, at least in some areas, (2) I'm not just a total wuss after all, and (3) not everyone had the same awful experience I did. I do totally recommend IUDs. Even if nothing else, the lack of periods (with the hormonal ones) is an awesome side effect.
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+1
Similar to your situation, we are unmarried but have been together for years. Although we go out and have some separate interests, we are absolutely each other's best friend. Our intimacy followed a very similar slow down to yours as well. Once or twice a month at first. Now, a couple years later, I don't even actively initiate and somedays I actively avoid intimacy. Sparing you all the details, lots of things in our lives have changed since I first met my significant other, but we don't love each other any less.
The way I saw it in my own relationship, I had two options: the relationship was worth the effort of figuring out the root issue and fixing or it wasn't. That goes for both me and my significant other. I decided it was worth it to me, so I approached my significant other about he. It took him a while to understand what I was really asking him. I think at first he just thought I wanted him to end the relationship, because I couldn't; he saw the problem as me just being unsatisfied in our relationship, and we should break up. Several long emotional talks later, and we're on the same page trying to get to the root cause and fix things. We're both reading "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman as a starting point (recommended by someone I know, and hopefully will give us a better idea of what's happening), and we've decided to start going to counseling.
Your relationship sounds like where my marriage was about 3 years ago. What someone wants out of a relationship at 24 can be totally different than 30 (and it truly is brain development - the frontal cortex is still growing into the early 30s). For DH and I in our 20s, our attraction was common interests (especially work). We spent a lot of time doing activities together (and had a great time), but more or less our relationship ran on automatic. My priorities started shifting, and that's when things got tough.
The word "intimacy" was just gross to me at 24. I was more interested in having a partner who was exciting and fun and a good friend (and all of that in bed, too). Around 30, I started craving connection, family, closeness/intimacy, and a deeper sense of belonging. I didn't recognize that's what it was for a couple years - I just knew that the relationship didn't feel right anymore. If I had to sum it down to one thing: we weren't nurturing our relationship. I feel bad for all the blame I put on him when I was doing an equally sh*tty job paying attention to or prioritizing the relationship. It's really easy to talk about redecorating or where you want to go for a weekend getaway vs why you've been having the same argument for 5 years. I read once that 90% of marriage issues don't have a solution - it's 2 people doing things differently, and we just differ on how to do it. So, I don't see the questions as, "Are we compatible? Is this a bad relationship?" Instead, I see it like, "something is broken in this relationship. Do you want to nurture it back to health?" Maybe it's worth it, or maybe it's not.
Gottman is great - another book you might be interested in is "Passages" by Gail Sheehy. It was written in the 70s, but is a really interesting look at the shift in mindset we go through in each decade of our lives, and different crises that we go through during those shifts.
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I relied on various forms of birth control for all of my 20s, and the non-hormonal IUD is a winner in my book. It's effective for years, it doesn't mess with a woman's hormones, and it's cheap. Honestly I'm not sure why it's not everyone's first choice, within a sexually exclusive relationship.
It can be really expensive. Even with Obamacare, health care providers aren't required to provide all types of birth control. The pill was free for me, but IUD was going to be over $1k! Lame.
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Saw this, made me think of this thread...
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/6d/51/9a/6d519ac189c00c24455f9bf19e51f921.jpg)
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I don't mean to be shallow but mid 20's is way too young for sexless marriages it's a romantic notion better suited for the twilight years...hormones do shift with birth control, pregnancy, etc but I sense that you two just haven't found that special person who really rings bells for you...and are just holding on going through the motions. It's near impossible for a guy to take the initiative to get out unless there's another lady involved. Pregnancy and breastfeeding and 15 pounds of extra chubb later and my husband can't keep his hands off me...it's a little too much but I don't say no....and if it ever got to two weeks with no sex and no clear medical reason for it, I'd be going crazy trying to figure out why...so good luck but I'd get out...
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I read the entire thread and my first thought is my last; you are not compatible. You have lots of areas of compatibility, but sex and touching are important to you, not her, and so you should a) call off the wedding b) continue the counseling with the realization that it may end up helping you break up. Which is ok. At your age you have plenty of time to find someone who is a better fit.
Your fiancée may have some deep seated issues to work on, but that doesn't mean you have to weather that, you're not married yet. In any case they may not resolve to a better relationship. Assuming your hygiene is good, the sex was good when you had it, you pull your weight around the house, your fiencée doesn't meet your needs. Not wants, needs.
Your breakup, if/when it happens, will be hard. There's lots of pressure to stay and work on relationships even when you should bail. But you're young, don't have kids, and can do-over fairly easily. It may be the best for both of you, she sounds equally unhappy. Good luck.
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Update for anyone who is interested.
Thanks for all the feedback and advice also.
We went to another counselling session and I basically said at the start of the meeting, I want this addressed. It doesn't matter how well other things are going in the relationship, this is always going to be a wedge that separates us. We talked it over between the three of us for the better part of an hour and at the end of it we went home and continued the conversation and decided jointly it was for the best not to continue the relationship. So she was thinking along the same lines (which I never picked up on until that point).
We are going to continue to live together for the next two weeks, sort through things and then go our separate ways. It ended on good terms and I think we will remain friends.
It's like a complete weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I felt sad for the first two days, but now I feel like I have made the completely right decision. I went to a wedding over the weekend and I thought to myself, I'm glad I'm not going through with this with my fiance, my parents who I've talked to said not many people would have the courage to end it the way we did, most people would just go along with it and then bring up the issues once we were married.
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It's like a complete weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I felt sad for the first two days, but now I feel like I have made the completely right decision.
This is really good news. Glad to hear you're at peace with what must be a pretty major upheaval in your life.
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I am glad you updated us. Hopefully the two of you can find your way apart and onto more satisfying relationships without too much heartache..
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Update for anyone who is interested.
Thanks for all the feedback and advice also.
We went to another counselling session and I basically said at the start of the meeting, I want this addressed. It doesn't matter how well other things are going in the relationship, this is always going to be a wedge that separates us. We talked it over between the three of us for the better part of an hour and at the end of it we went home and continued the conversation and decided jointly it was for the best not to continue the relationship. So she was thinking along the same lines (which I never picked up on until that point).
We are going to continue to live together for the next two weeks, sort through things and then go our separate ways. It ended on good terms and I think we will remain friends.
It's like a complete weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I felt sad for the first two days, but now I feel like I have made the completely right decision. I went to a wedding over the weekend and I thought to myself, I'm glad I'm not going through with this with my fiance, my parents who I've talked to said not many people would have the courage to end it the way we did, most people would just go along with it and then bring up the issues once we were married.
Wonderful news. Happy to hear.
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I left my live-in ex (~2.5 yr relationship) the day after he declined an invitation from me standing in only a towel in the living room with the excuse that he was working on leveling his rogue in World of Warcraft.
I love this line. I might try it on my wife.
As for op I think you have to have sex in a marital based relationship otherwise its not a marriage.
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I'm really glad to hear you had such a good resolution. It sounds like once the two of you heal you'll be a lot better off.
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You did your best and this relationship was not workable for either of you really. I am glad you came to a resolution.
I was in a similar situation with a live-in boyfriend a long time ago. We were together for several years and it never got better.
One thing I learned from that relationship was if you are not happy in the relationship today, something is wrong. While he and I were together, I remember thinking that "one day" we would be fine. Well, that day never really arrived. Just incompatible.
Kudos to you.
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**clipped**
Ha in my head I was already plotting to quote and bold the exact same two sections.
Kiwi - this was a mature, rational, challenging decision that speaks highly of your character. I'm glad to hear the positive you've found in this!
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Update for anyone who is interested.
Thanks for all the feedback and advice also.
We went to another counselling session and I basically said at the start of the meeting, I want this addressed. It doesn't matter how well other things are going in the relationship, this is always going to be a wedge that separates us. We talked it over between the three of us for the better part of an hour and at the end of it we went home and continued the conversation and decided jointly it was for the best not to continue the relationship. So she was thinking along the same lines (which I never picked up on until that point).
We are going to continue to live together for the next two weeks, sort through things and then go our separate ways. It ended on good terms and I think we will remain friends.
It's like a complete weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I felt sad for the first two days, but now I feel like I have made the completely right decision. I went to a wedding over the weekend and I thought to myself, I'm glad I'm not going through with this with my fiance, my parents who I've talked to said not many people would have the courage to end it the way we did, most people would just go along with it and then bring up the issues once we were married.
Yay communication!
I'm glad you were able to come to a mutually beneficial resolution. The bolded part says to me that you definitely made the right decision.
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Kiwi: I'm sure you'll have a lot of mixed emotions in the next few weeks/months, but it sounds as if you guys came to right decision (for the both of you). Best of luck to you both in love and life in all the years ahead.
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Glad that you found some resolution. Come and post here if you need a listening year. :)
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thank you for the update, and good luck to both of you in the future.
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I'm sad for you that it ended. I know how hard that is.
But I'm happy for you too. It's a rare person who can learn from other's experiences.
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A few years ago, we had traveled from Nova Scotia to Calgary for a wedding.
It was cancelled the morning of the wedding.
After meeting the bride to be a couple of days before , we understood why.
She was very immature, and it seemed she was marrying to get away from her family.
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Update for anyone who is interested.
Thanks for all the feedback and advice also.
We went to another counselling session and I basically said at the start of the meeting, I want this addressed. It doesn't matter how well other things are going in the relationship, this is always going to be a wedge that separates us. We talked it over between the three of us for the better part of an hour and at the end of it we went home and continued the conversation and decided jointly it was for the best not to continue the relationship. So she was thinking along the same lines (which I never picked up on until that point).
We are going to continue to live together for the next two weeks, sort through things and then go our separate ways. It ended on good terms and I think we will remain friends.
It's like a complete weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I felt sad for the first two days, but now I feel like I have made the completely right decision. I went to a wedding over the weekend and I thought to myself, I'm glad I'm not going through with this with my fiance, my parents who I've talked to said not many people would have the courage to end it the way we did, most people would just go along with it and then bring up the issues once we were married.
honestly i am really glad that you addressed this before your choices made things much harder to unwind.
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Thanks for the update...it takes two to tango (or not)...so I'm not surprised that your girlfriend was having thoughts on her end too...it seems so hard at the time but I bet in a few years when you've finally found someone that turns you on that way both of you will be grateful...
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Spam alert.
ETA - the OP was last seen in these parts on October 21, 2016. Hopefully he's found happiness by now.
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Spam alert.
ETA - the OP was last seen in these parts on October 21, 2016. Hopefully he's found happiness by now.
I've already notified the moderators.