The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: hodedofome on November 25, 2014, 02:34:16 PM
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I've wondered about this lately. It seems the reason to be frugal, according to MMM, is because working a regular job sucks and you need to retire early in order to do what you want to do. But what if you enjoy your job? What if you enjoy what you do? Then why not save just 10% and retire at 60 like everyone else?
Full disclosure: my job sucks and I'm trying to retire early like everyone else on here :)
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so you're missing the other what ifs
what if you get cancer
what if you have kids and your SO passes away or cant work anymore
what if you lose your job that you love
FI doesnt have to be linked to RE but it gives you peice of mind and FU money to basically say i'm doing what i'm doing b/c i love it and want to be here. and if what you love to do changes in 10 years and your FI you can quit and go try your hand at something new
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Early retirement is for people who hate their jobs.
Financial independence is for everyone.
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One of the big concepts is just that spending money doesn't necessarily do much for your happiness.
Swapping out bought goods/experiences for personal accomplishments can build your personal fulfillment while saving you money.
(Of course, if you really love your job, you might find a lot of fulfillment in it, and maybe you just want to shut down after work. Suit yourself, but one might argue that it's not an "optimal" life.)
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One of the impressive things about MMM is that his blog has actually anticipated much of what gets asked on this forum. In this case, here is the relevant post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/
I never liked that post much. In my line of work the person who "holds his line against management" is dooming his career. It's only the shit-eating workaholics who get ahead. Adopting the SWAMI lifestyle and refusing to work evenings or weekends because you have a family is a sure-fired way to get fired for sure.
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One of the impressive things about MMM is that his blog has actually anticipated much of what gets asked on this forum. In this case, here is the relevant post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/
I never liked that post much. In my line of work the person who "holds his line against management" is dooming his career. It's only the shit-eating workaholics who get ahead. Adopting the SWAMI lifestyle and refusing to work evenings or weekends because you have a family is a sure-fired way to get fired for sure.
You make a good point. Depending on your industry, the "Swami" tactic could be career suicide. I have a close buddy who works on Wall Street. He'd be replaced in a minute if he didn't eat shit from his desk mananger on a daily basis. It is a shame that some jobs are worse than others. But, hey, I guess it is a trade-off.
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I don't mind my job, I just don't want to do it full-time forever.
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In my experience, if you're working for a well-managed company, and you love your job (and these things usually go together) then you aren't as likely to have to "eat shit" just to keep your job.
I've also found that those with valuable skills and productivity don't tend to need to cave to unreasonable demands, nor do they need to spend a lot of extra time to get their work done, because they've developed their skills and can work efficiently.
I am far from FIRE, but I don't find that I need to make a show of spending extra time at work to get respect or have job security. Rather, I get what needs done quickly, but done well.
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I dream of a day when I will have a job again, after living overseas. I am not sure husband will ever want to not work. He gets a great deal of fulfillment and personal satisfaction from his work. He's doing the job he dreamed of since boyhood, and even the bureaucratic shit that comes with every job (and his perhaps more than many, given his employer and what that employer is allowed to get away with), it's how he wants to spend his time. I call it his job and his hobby. He'll come home from work and spend 2 hours on the computer researching Sharepoint so he can optimize some process, while I'm reading a book. Hobbies.
My parents, who are basically mustachians, were doing most of these things their whole lives. In their 70s, they still have positive cash flow and certainly no need for additional income, yet my dad keeps going back to work.
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It's a lifestyle. It can include or not include a job. That part is up to the individual. MMM isn't as much about FIREing asap as much at is adopting a smarter and more efficient lifestyle that allows oneself to do what they want.
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I enjoy my job.
But I'm not used to working for someone else. And there are things that I have to manage and deal with (and tell my staff they have to deal with) which I don't agree with. And that's at a relatively well-managed, well-meaning, non-profit employer. I don't want to do it forever...
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Funny you should ask. I've been teaching for 17 years. The first several years of my career were wonderful: challenging, fulfilling, lots of autonomy...
Now - I've become completely disillusioned with public education. All the bureaucratic red tape, mountains of paper work, inane meetings, unreasonable demands from administration, and jumping through endless hoops - I'm tired just writing about it. Being discouraged and overwhelmed certainly does motivate one to reach financial goals sooner.
However, my end game may be surprising to some. Once I reach FIRE, I'd like to return to high need schools and volunteer my time for free. Yes, that's right. My ultimate dream is to retire comfortably from the very system that drove me into early retirement - then return to school and actually TEACH (sans the hoops and red tape).
The thought of being able to show up when I want to and where I want to while using my training, skills, and talent where it matters most - free of bullshit, baggage, and stress of course - is HIGHLY desirable to me.
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Then why not save just 10% and retire at 60 like everyone else?
Saving 10% won't get you to retirement at 60 in most cases. Consider the real rate of return on investments, behavioral risk, the necessity of reducing exposure to risky asset classes as you age, lifestyle inflation & perceived needs brought about by playing the games of careerism and consumerism, and the fact that when saving 10% it takes ten years of saving to allocate one year's cash flow. There's also the risk that as you get older your zest for work will decline.
I'd rather not spend my 50's sweating whether or not I'll be able to retire in my 60's. I don't think I'll ever "retire" because I love playing the game of business, but I want to get to a point where I can stop showing up if I choose.
IMO Mustachianism is for people who want health and optionality.
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Early retirement is for people who hate their jobs.
Financial independence is for everyone.
This.
Also, I love my job, but I know it might not stay that way forever. If my job stays as good as it is I'll likely go to half-time once I hit FI. If it changes for the worse, I'll have the flexibilty to choose what I want to do.
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Early retirement is for people who hate their jobs.
Financial independence is for everyone.
Could be your most astute observation ever, Sol. Beautiful, just beautiful.
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The Job might not love you back ... Or not forever.
Ask the guys who lost the Job in '08, then the house, cashed the 401k... then had to settle for a lower paying job they don't love...
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<- Self Employed. I don't take shit from anyone now. I didn't like taking shit from crappy management, so I quit, and went to work for myself. Problem solved.
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I used to love my job working for a fantastic company.. But after 20 years things started to go downhill fast,.. eventually I became very glad I was a career stash monster!
Frank
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Not necessarily. Plenty of people on these forums love their work. They may not like having to do it every day though, or for the rest of their lives. Our society seems to enforce this one-career-per-life thing where you only exercise one aspect of your skills for a very long time. I was curious to learn/re-learn a bit about our founding fathers in the US recently, and realized many of them had multiple types of work/businesses they dabbled in, in addition to starting a revolution and creating the US system. Patents, technologies, farmers, etc. It seems like many of the day had to wear multiple hats. Maybe it made life more interesting...I don't know.
I'm nearing the end of my paid career in software. I never really loved it, I guess, but there have been some fun times. I like to dabble in creative stuff and there is some of that in software.
I have about a year or two left for my desired FIRE number and just recently cut a lot of expenses with a house sale and move, so I am constantly doing FIRE calculations in my head.
I had a one-on-one meeting with my new manager today. I got moved to a coding position again after working in architecture for a while. A lot of reorgs at my company. It wasn't my decision, but I thought it would be a good way to brush up on coding skills anyways, so I will try to make the best of it. My manager just came into the group as well, although he has worked at the company for about 15 years. I've known him for a long time.
So he's sitting across from me and telling me about all of the training I'd have to catch up on, how he has done it sometimes when his kids go to bed...and I start looking at him like he's sprouted two heads. I do not plan on reading this on my own time. I couldn't believe he was doing all of that on his own time.
As I'm sitting there and starting to dread my new reality, I am quietly calculating my FIRE numbers again in my head and can't wait to get back to my cube and open up the FIRE spreadsheet one more time to get reassurance. I quietly nod at his suggestions.
Then he asks me for some feedback on him because the last group meeting got a little wild with people complaining about stuff. He trusts me because we go way back. So I start telling him the truth about how people are feeling. I seriously felt like Peter in Office Space and he was one of the Bobs. It was great fun. He told me to keep letting him know how he is doing.
So I don't totally hate my job, but I am starting to get more "done" with this industry after about 24 years in it. Time to move on to my other interests soon, I hope. ;-)
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FI also provides you with options, when things outside of your control intervene (let that be a lay-off, illness, or something else).
Also, attitude goes a long way. Based on the decisions my husband and I have made (having a lower mortgage than most, not having car loan payments, etc), I could be equally happy working a lower paying job than I have now, without having to worry about how we will pay our bills.
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Even one year seems to me like an oppressively long time to work all day, every weekday. I really can't fathom how ordinary people do it for decades.
I'm only 24 but I still have days where I think, "I should just retire right now". There are places in US/Canada where I could do so, although it would be far from lavish. I'd really like to reach millionaire status before retiring though (which will probably take until around age 30, but could be sooner...), but if I can't go any longer, I might just do the frugal retirement.
Yes, I was thinking these thoughts during my meeting with the Bobs today. I was treated very well, but the thought of my new role almost made me want to cry. Don't get me wrong, it's a great role to have...he lauded me on past accomplishments and they all wanted me to work on this stuff, yada yada yada...but I know I am so done with it.
I seriously contemplated leaving earlier than I want to so that I don't have to retrain on some of the new stuff...sigh...
I am also waiting for a layoff severance package though. I'm going to start hinting at one next year once I pay off some big bills that are due.
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Even one year seems to me like an oppressively long time to work all day, every weekday. I really can't fathom how ordinary people do it for decades.
I'm only 24 but I still have days where I think, "I should just retire right now". There are places in US/Canada where I could do so, although it would be far from lavish. I'd really like to reach millionaire status before retiring though (which will probably take until around age 30, but could be sooner...), but if I can't go any longer, I might just do the frugal retirement.
A millionare at age 30.. cool..:)
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I get the feeling a lot of people on the forum hate their jobs. I'm not one of them.
I absolutely love my career. I enjoy having influence, using my knowledge and problem solving skills, socializing with others and generally having something to contribute to society.
I have other hobbies, but these don't take up 168 hours of the week, so I like having 40-50 of these hours to devote to something I get a lot of enjoyment and sense of satisfaction from doing.
If and when my hobbies take up more time, I'd still work. I'd just negotiate working perhaps 4 days per week.
I'm frugal because I've realised that buying things doesn't equate to making me happier. What makes me happy is getting outdoors, hiking, cycling and coaching a few local triathletes. These are all cheap things.
I don't need to buy new clothes, a new $10,000 bike or a $50,000 boat to enjoy doing these things.
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It's not for people who love their jobs so much as people who love their freedom.
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It can also be for people that want to live a sustainable lifestyle. A lot of mustachian choices have to do with minimizing the resources required to live.
I like my job just fine, but I definitely want more freedom, or to do it on my own terms (seasonal/part-time. consulting. Full time till 60 isn't going to cut it for me. There are just so many other things I want to do, so many other things that are more important than work.
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Early retirement is for people who hate their jobs.
Financial independence is for everyone.
Could be your most astute observation ever, Sol. Beautiful, just beautiful.
+1. Rarely seen a question answered so completely and so compactly at the same time.
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Put me down as another one who loved Sol's observation.
You also forget that FIRE is just one component of Mustachianism. Even if you work forever, you can benefit from the joys of DIY, Stoicism, the Low Information Diet, etc. MMM is an environmentalism and lifestyle design site masquerading as an early retirement blog ;)
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I like my job, it has usually been interesting, sometimes it's been great, but after 25 years of doing it, I'm just running out of patience. I want to do other things already.
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probably a good majority hate their jobs, so would agree
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If my life away from the job was "meh" I may very well have plugged away at my career, spent money on "stuff", not saved a hell of a lot in the process. It's what pretty much everyone I know (outside of this forum) does.
But my life outside of my job was so full of awesomeness that I little choice but to save, invest, build a "Stache" so that I could do the stuff that really thrills me FULL TIME - be it in the Baja, the Gulf Islands/San Juans or even in Vancouver. The stuff I have the ability to do and see (think kayaking with orcas) is so badass that I little choice but to retire early... really early.
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I've wondered about this lately. It seems the reason to be frugal, according to MMM, is because working a regular job sucks and you need to retire early in order to do what you want to do. But what if you enjoy your job? What if you enjoy what you do? Then why not save just 10% and retire at 60 like everyone else?
Full disclosure: my job sucks and I'm trying to retire early like everyone else on here :)
I don't "hate" my job. If I did, I wouldn't come into work. But hell, I want the option to never come into any work if I so please. The fact that I must work anywhere at all to pay bills and eat just pisses me off in general. Capiche? My job is fine, but the fact that I can't just go fucking around whenever I want is the issue. I want to own my own freedom 100% in its entirety.
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One of the impressive things about MMM is that his blog has actually anticipated much of what gets asked on this forum. In this case, here is the relevant post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/
I never liked that post much. In my line of work the person who "holds his line against management" is dooming his career. It's only the shit-eating workaholics who get ahead. Adopting the SWAMI lifestyle and refusing to work evenings or weekends because you have a family is a sure-fired way to get fired for sure.
You make a good point. Depending on your industry, the "Swami" tactic could be career suicide. I have a close buddy who works on Wall Street. He'd be replaced in a minute if he didn't eat shit from his desk mananger on a daily basis. It is a shame that some jobs are worse than others. But, hey, I guess it is a trade-off.
These would be the jobs that people hate. I would consider being FI and getting fired from that job, a good "eff you" moment.
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I love what I do and don't see retiring in the immediate future but I wouldn't trade my financial independence in for anything. Of the four companies I've worked at in my career path, two have declared bankruptcy and one outsourced all of its work to Canada. Being financially independent allows me to pick and choose what I want to do next on my schedule, not on the schedule of when my checking account runs out of cash. Financial independence buys a lot of peace of mind.
Mike
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I love my job and don't think I will retire early. I have a few hobbies, but I don't like any of them as much as I like my job--I don't think I'd be as happy without my work. My husband really enjoys his job, but he prefers his hobbies. He wants to retire at around 45.
FI appeals to me more than RE because I like the idea of security and options. Also, I just don't want that much crap.
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One of the impressive things about MMM is that his blog has actually anticipated much of what gets asked on this forum. In this case, here is the relevant post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/
I never liked that post much. In my line of work the person who "holds his line against management" is dooming his career. It's only the shit-eating workaholics who get ahead. Adopting the SWAMI lifestyle and refusing to work evenings or weekends because you have a family is a sure-fired way to get fired for sure.
You make a good point. Depending on your industry, the "Swami" tactic could be career suicide. I have a close buddy who works on Wall Street. He'd be replaced in a minute if he didn't eat shit from his desk mananger on a daily basis. It is a shame that some jobs are worse than others. But, hey, I guess it is a trade-off.
These would be the jobs that people hate. I would consider being FI and getting fired from that job, a good "eff you" moment.
Well I don't hate my job (yet), but that is my plan. I will work my hours and do my best, but if the new boss starts expecting me to spend my evening hours catching up on training I can do at work, well then I will say no. If that puts me on the next layoff list, that will work just fine with my FIRE schedule. ;-)
I already worked for this boss once and put in some hours two weekends in a row to keep on schedule. Then I just told him (not ask) that I was taking the next Monday off. He started calculating the hours and said I could take half of the hours that I had worked overtime (we don't get paid overtime). I resisted, and he caved and I took my Monday off. ;-)
The work situation is deteriorating slowly...right on schedule with FIRE. So nice!
My hobbies are infinitely more interesting than my work.
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Early retirement is for people who hate their jobs.
Financial independence is for everyone.
+1
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Mustachianism is for people who want to do what they want, whenever they want. With Mustachianism, you could actually retire early and become the underwater basket weaver you dreamt of being when you were a kid, before the weight of the world crushed your spirit and poured your liquified remains into a cubicle.
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"We noticed your TSP reports haven't been completed and you've been missing a lot of work..."
"I wouldn't exactly say I've been missing it, Bob.."
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before the weight of the world crushed your spirit and poured your liquified remains into a cubicle.
That is exactly how it felt when I worked in a cubicle. Great description!
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I love my job. It would be perfect if I could afford to do it for only 15-20 hours a week though. I currently work 40 and it just sucks. I just hated it when I worked a 60 hour a week job.
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It would be perfect if I could afford to do it for only 15-20 hours a week though. I currently work 40 and it just sucks. I just hated it when I worked a 60 hour a week job.
+1
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Early retirement is for people who hate their jobs.
Financial independence is for everyone.
Well said. MMM also said this is secretly an environmental blog. So I like that too.
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I think I'm kind of middle of the road here:
I like my job, but I wouldn't do it for free, and I have plenty of hobbies that are more fun than work.
I am very aware that any job could end suddenly, along with the steady paychecks.
I am very aware that my health could end suddenly, along with the steady paychecks.
I've reached the point that working is now a CHOICE, but working a few more years plays into my overall plan.
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I think I'm kind of middle of the road here:
I like my job, but I wouldn't do it for free, and I have plenty of hobbies that are more fun than work.
I am very aware that any job could end suddenly, along with the steady paychecks.
I am very aware that my health could end suddenly, along with the steady paychecks.
I've reached the point that working is now a CHOICE, but working a few more years plays into my overall plan.
+1 well said Mrs. Pete.
My job or my health could end suddenly. I think this is a reality for middle-aged people like me and I would like to be as ready as I can. However, I still need to work. For me, work isn't a choice.
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I discovered that when I compared working in college where I needed the money to survive and working in high school for fun money, I had less stress working in high school. I have a bad back which is exasperated by stress. I want to reduce my stress load, that is why I want FI. I probably will continue working, for fun money, but I want to be able to say no.
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No.
Quitting my field is unimportant to me. I love my work and while my current job is not ideal, my opportunities are good enough that I'm not worried. I don't plan to retire in 10 years when I'm 35. I plan to retire the day I say to myself, "I don't feel like coming in to work anymore. I want to do something else." What's important to me is being independent so my choices are not constrained by financial slavery.
Honestly, I'm mainly here because I want to live a good life and afford cryonics when I die. Everything else is just fun frosting for doing the best I can.
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I like my job quite a bit. But that doesn't mean I don't want to FIRE.
By the time I do FIRE, I'll have been doing my job for nearly a decade.
To me, a decade is long enough to do anything. I have other things I want to do. Spend lots of time raising a kid and traveling are two things that would be quite limited if I kept my job, instead of FIREing to do them (for a few years at least).
So yeah, one can like their job and still want to do other things. No, FI/RE isn't just for people who hate their job.
My job was one of my lives; now I'm ready for new ones:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722 (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722):
(http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120902.gif)
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Good one Arebelspy!
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I like that arebelspy!
I've kind of thought that way, but haven't really put it into action too much in my working life...maybe a little more in my hobbies as I have tried quite a few things. That will be changing soon when I skedaddle away from my software job. I can't believe 24 years of my life have been dedicated to this which was never my intent when entering engineering. Sometimes I wonder how it all happened. It's been a good ride, but now I see so many other rides at the park I'd like to try. ;-)
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Like what others said in the above posts, I love my job but I'm also working towards FIRE.
Thing is, right now there are two reasons why I work:
1. For livelihood
2. Because I happen to love it
But I can't deny that #1 was a real reason. The moment I become FI, I will still work because I love it, but my attitude every morning will change. It's no longer "ugh I have to do this because otherwise I'm fired" but rather "I want to go... I don't have to really, but I want to because it gives me purpose in life"
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The MMM way is also more environmentally responsible in so many ways.