Author Topic: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?  (Read 12619 times)

COlady

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New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« on: November 19, 2015, 10:00:46 AM »
I see all these posts on here about people being crazy for buying an SUV just because they had kids....but now I kind of get why it might be a good idea.  When I got pregnant we had no plans on changing up our vehicles.  We have a 2007 Subaru Legacy (mine) and a 2013 4 door Toyota Tacoma (his).  We were incredibly surprised to find that my car was impossible to drive with two infant seats in the back.  The front and passenger seats had to be so far forward that I couldn't actually drive the vehicle or have a passenger for that matter. I'm 5'9" so taller than average (husband is 6'2'')...but a person would literally need to be 5'2'' to drive my Legacy with the seat like that. We couldn't pull the trigger on a different vehicle at that time because all of the baby expenses were pretty overwhelming to us. I just purchased new convertible carseats that will be rear facing for as long as possible (5X safer than forward facing) and they're just as huge as the infant seats front to back.

Now, 8 months later, I'm driving my husband's truck with the babies and he drives the Subaru.  The babies fit in the truck fine but it's not ideal now that winter is approaching. I need somewhere to put the giant double stroller and in the back where it gets snowed on really isn't ideal.  I suggested to my husband that we could get a topper for the truck (I don't know how much those are but definitely cheaper than a new vehicle). He's been looking at them but isn't excited about them.

If I had my way we would sell the truck and get an SUV that better meets our needs.  I suggested this to my husband and he isn't budging.  He loves his truck and we saved for 10 years before finally getting a new vehicle (I realize not entirely mustacian but we aren't as hardcore as some on here). I don't really want a truck and an SUV...two expensive to maintain and insure vehicles. It would make more sense to trade the truck. Help!

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2015, 10:10:00 AM »
I swore I'd never drive a minivan, but with 4 kids, it's been fantastic. Power sliding doors make getting everyone in and out a breeze when your hands are full (and no worries about kids flinging doors open  into other vehicles!), stowable seats, plenty of cargo space, lots of cup holders...  I'm also a stickler for extended rear-facing, and there's plenty of space to do that in our second row, even with 5'11" me and 6'3" DH. 

COlady

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2015, 10:11:07 AM »
I knew the minivan suggestions was coming :).  My husband is all about it but I just can't do it. I'm just not ready. Ha ha.

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2015, 10:13:55 AM »
Ha!  I understand!  I resisted for years! 

johnny847

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2015, 10:15:49 AM »
I knew the minivan suggestions was coming :).  My husband is all about it but I just can't do it. I'm just not ready. Ha ha.

Why aren't you ready? Because of the connotation surrounding a mother owning a minivan?
If that's the case, I know this is easier said than done, but you shouldn't care what other people think. I mean, as Mustachians, we're already labelled by the general population as pretty crazy to begin with!

COlady

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 10:21:01 AM »
I honestly don't give a crap about what people think.  I just don't like the look of minivans.  If I'm going to spend a significant amount of money on a vehicle I at least want to be excited about it....

COlady

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2015, 10:21:46 AM »
Maybe I should rent one for a week....put the babies in and out and see if it's really as life changing as everyone says it is :).

Argyle

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2015, 10:31:19 AM »
A mini-van is overkill for this situation.  It will seat eight — you don't need to seat eight, you only need to seat four.  No use hauling around twice as much vehicle as you need.  My car is old, so mine's not a useful suggestion, but it (a Toyota Tercel from the '90s) definitely fits a car seat behind the driver's seat without pushing the driver's seat up at all.  I've done it many times.  So I imagine there must be tons of cars that do.  Why not look around for good solid used cars, sold privately (because that's a lot cheaper), and when you go to look at them, just take one of the car seats with you and try fitting it in the car.  Also get the car checked out by a mechanic before you buy.

catccc

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2015, 10:37:02 AM »
I have 2 kids, not twins, but for a long time the both rear faced  (The kids are 2 years apart, but we RF to age 5).  Our 2005 Toyota Matrix fits them just fine.  You and Dad might have to sit more upright, but it's doable.

My sister does have twins, and they can both RF in a Civic and in their Mazda 3.  My BIL is around 6' and it works just fine. If your carseat is the problem, look into getting one that fits in the car.  Spending hundreds on a couple of car seats to fit in your car make much more sense than spending thousands on a car to accommodate the car seats.   

I also know another family with a couple of tall parents and they own a Civic and a Matrix for their family of 4.  It works, really.  Don't make excuses to get a bigger car!

The forums at car-safety.org are full of helpful CPS Techs that can probably make more thorough car seat recommendations than mustachians.

johnny847

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2015, 10:46:52 AM »
I honestly don't give a crap about what people think.  I just don't like the look of minivans.  If I'm going to spend a significant amount of money on a vehicle I at least want to be excited about it....

Sweet.

I have 2 kids, not twins, but for a long time the both rear faced  (The kids are 2 years apart, but we RF to age 5).  Our 2005 Toyota Matrix fits them just fine.  You and Dad might have to sit more upright, but it's doable.

My sister does have twins, and they can both RF in a Civic and in their Mazda 3.  My BIL is around 6' and it works just fine. If your carseat is the problem, look into getting one that fits in the car.  Spending hundreds on a couple of car seats to fit in your car make much more sense than spending thousands on a car to accommodate the car seats.   

I also know another family with a couple of tall parents and they own a Civic and a Matrix for their family of 4.  It works, really.  Don't make excuses to get a bigger car!

The forums at car-safety.org are full of helpful CPS Techs that can probably make more thorough car seat recommendations than mustachians.

+1

COlady

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2015, 10:54:25 AM »
I have 2 kids, not twins, but for a long time the both rear faced  (The kids are 2 years apart, but we RF to age 5).  Our 2005 Toyota Matrix fits them just fine.  You and Dad might have to sit more upright, but it's doable.

My sister does have twins, and they can both RF in a Civic and in their Mazda 3.  My BIL is around 6' and it works just fine. If your carseat is the problem, look into getting one that fits in the car.  Spending hundreds on a couple of car seats to fit in your car make much more sense than spending thousands on a car to accommodate the car seats.   

I also know another family with a couple of tall parents and they own a Civic and a Matrix for their family of 4.  It works, really.  Don't make excuses to get a bigger car!

The forums at car-safety.org are full of helpful CPS Techs that can probably make more thorough car seat recommendations than mustachians.

Maybe it's just the way the Legacy back seat is designed but I cannot drive the vehicle. It's not a matter of comfort but safety.  My knees are literally in the dash.  Maybe I could look at more of a full size sedan? Like a Honda Accord or similar.  I bought the Britax Advocate Clicktight (not cheap) and they are some of the smallest convertible seats front to back when rear facing per my friend that's a carseat tech. I haven't tried to put them in the Legacy yet because I'm guessing they won't fit since the infant seats wouldn't fit but I'll try before ruling it out.

MayDay

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2015, 10:58:50 AM »
We managed in a Civic just fine, but not with the giant rear facing seats.  Those things suck donkey balls.  I am glad the extended rear facing reccs came out after my kids were already flipped.

That said, if you are going to have any more kids just get the damn van.

And also, I have 2 kids, and you can pry my van out of my the grip of my cold dead hands.  (but we still have the Civic that we take as much as possible, and leave the van parked). 

If you really don't like the van, and you promise that your tubes are tied, I would look at what smaller cars/wagons can fit what seats, and also look at a big sedan like an Accord or Camry.  Those are super cheap new compared to bigger SUV's and have seriously roomy back seats.  If you "need" and SUV, well, take the truck on those days and cover the stroller with a tarp. 

But buy a van.

COlady

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2015, 11:06:47 AM »
We managed in a Civic just fine, but not with the giant rear facing seats.  Those things suck donkey balls.  I am glad the extended rear facing reccs came out after my kids were already flipped.

That said, if you are going to have any more kids just get the damn van.

And also, I have 2 kids, and you can pry my van out of my the grip of my cold dead hands.  (but we still have the Civic that we take as much as possible, and leave the van parked). 

If you really don't like the van, and you promise that your tubes are tied, I would look at what smaller cars/wagons can fit what seats, and also look at a big sedan like an Accord or Camry.  Those are super cheap new compared to bigger SUV's and have seriously roomy back seats.  If you "need" and SUV, well, take the truck on those days and cover the stroller with a tarp. 

But buy a van.

Ha ha, this made me laugh. My husband said we should agree on no further children before we decide we aren't getting a van.  I think I'm okay with being done....but we also have 8 month old twins, one of which doesn't sleep so right now is not the best time for me to make that decision. I told him it's not like getting a vehicle is an irrevocable decision.  If we decide we want another kid in 3 years I think we can change out vehicles if necessary.

Jack

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2015, 11:13:35 AM »
I just purchased new convertible carseats that will be rear facing for as long as possible (5X safer than forward facing)...

"5x safer" is pretty much meaningless. If it reduces the probability of injury from 25% to 5%, that's significant. But if it reduces the probability of injury from 0.025% to 0.005% then that's negligible. The claim (intentionally!) totally fails to give any meaningful indication of which case it's closer to.

My car is old, so mine's not a useful suggestion, but it (a Toyota Tercel from the '90s) definitely fits a car seat behind the driver's seat without pushing the driver's seat up at all.  I've done it many times.  So I imagine there must be tons of cars that do.

Here's the issue: in the name of "safety," cars' doors, pillars and crumple zones have been getting thicker and thicker (reducing interior volume even as the size of the car itself grows), while car seats have been getting larger and larger. The net effect is that I'd expect an old car seat to fit in an old subcompact car a lot better than a new car seat would fit in a new mid-size car.

Personally, as far as safety goes I think we're way beyond the point of diminishing returns at this point.

FrozenAssets

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2015, 11:20:10 AM »
I think renting any vehicle you're seriously considering purchasing is a great idea!  Give it a few days of real world use, hauling groceries/stroller/dog/whatever. I find that I'm most often hauling extra people these days, carpooling our kids' friends to their mutual activities and whatnot. Not the most mustachian, I know, but I suppose having 4 kids isn't, either. ;)

COlady

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2015, 11:21:49 AM »
I just purchased new convertible carseats that will be rear facing for as long as possible (5X safer than forward facing)...

"5x safer" is pretty much meaningless. If it reduces the probability of injury from 25% to 5%, that's significant. But if it reduces the probability of injury from 0.025% to 0.005% then that's negligible. The claim (intentionally!) totally fails to give any meaningful indication of which case it's closer to.

My car is old, so mine's not a useful suggestion, but it (a Toyota Tercel from the '90s) definitely fits a car seat behind the driver's seat without pushing the driver's seat up at all.  I've done it many times.  So I imagine there must be tons of cars that do.


Here's the issue: in the name of "safety," cars' doors, pillars and crumple zones have been getting thicker and thicker (reducing interior volume even as the size of the car itself grows), while car seats have been getting larger and larger. The net effect is that I'd expect an old car seat to fit in an old subcompact car a lot better than a new car seat would fit in a new mid-size car.

Personally, as far as safety goes I think we're way beyond the point of diminishing returns at this point.

I don't know what the actual probability of injury is but I do know that car accidents are the #1 cause of death in children. If by rear facing I'm significantly reducing the chances of my children getting severely injured or dying in a car accident I'm going to do it, because it's one of the few things I'm able to control. From a physics perspective rear facing totally makes sense (and I'm a CPA, not a scientist of any sort). Rear facing my children is not something I'm willing to budge on.  If it means buying a different vehicle so that they can rear face that is what I am going to do.  Here's a link with greater explanation: http://carseatblog.com/5168/why-rear-facing-is-better-your-rf-link-guide/

Jack

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2015, 11:49:26 AM »
I don't know what the actual probability of injury is but I do know that car accidents are the #1 cause of death in children. If by rear facing I'm significantly reducing the chances of my children getting severely injured or dying in a car accident I'm going to do it...

Here's the thing: the second statement does not logically follow from the first.

Consider the fact that the "#1 cause" of death in children necessarily has a lower probability of occurring than all causes put together. Makes sense, right?

So then, what's the probability of a child dying from any cause? Take a moment to actually guess before reading on.

...

Okay, you've guessed? Good. Now here's the actual answer: 0.016% Note that that's not one percent, it's one hundredth of a percent.

That's lower than you expected, I'll bet. So, what does that mean? It means that, at best, the maximum benefit of a safer car seat is to take an event whose probability is already negligible and merely make it even more so.

In other words, the claim that, by mitigating the #1 cause of death, you're significantly reducing the chances of your children dying, isn't true because even the #1 cause isn't significant.

Now, I'm not saying you should intentionally try to be less safe. If the safer choice costs the same as the less-safe choice, by all means, pick the safer choice! But if the safer choice is only a tiny bit safer yet much more expensive -- as it might be in your case -- then it isn't worth it.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2015, 11:50:40 AM »
I just purchased new convertible carseats that will be rear facing for as long as possible (5X safer than forward facing)...

"5x safer" is pretty much meaningless. If it reduces the probability of injury from 25% to 5%, that's significant. But if it reduces the probability of injury from 0.025% to 0.005% then that's negligible. The claim (intentionally!) totally fails to give any meaningful indication of which case it's closer to.

My car is old, so mine's not a useful suggestion, but it (a Toyota Tercel from the '90s) definitely fits a car seat behind the driver's seat without pushing the driver's seat up at all.  I've done it many times.  So I imagine there must be tons of cars that do.


Here's the issue: in the name of "safety," cars' doors, pillars and crumple zones have been getting thicker and thicker (reducing interior volume even as the size of the car itself grows), while car seats have been getting larger and larger. The net effect is that I'd expect an old car seat to fit in an old subcompact car a lot better than a new car seat would fit in a new mid-size car.

Personally, as far as safety goes I think we're way beyond the point of diminishing returns at this point.

I don't know what the actual probability of injury is but I do know that car accidents are the #1 cause of death in children. If by rear facing I'm significantly reducing the chances of my children getting severely injured or dying in a car accident I'm going to do it, because it's one of the few things I'm able to control. From a physics perspective rear facing totally makes sense (and I'm a CPA, not a scientist of any sort). Rear facing my children is not something I'm willing to budge on.  If it means buying a different vehicle so that they can rear face that is what I am going to do.  Here's a link with greater explanation: http://carseatblog.com/5168/why-rear-facing-is-better-your-rf-link-guide/

I absolutely agree that ERF is the best choice based on all the evidence we have. I wanted to clarify, though, that MVAs are not the #1 cause of death. Unintentional suffocation is for sub-1 yr old, while MVA is #4, and then 1-4yrs old, MVA is #2. (Second to drowning). Which is not to say it isn't vital and we shouldn't be as proactive as possible, I'm just a stats nerd.

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_injury_deaths_highlighting_unintentional_injury_2013-a.gif

catccc

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2015, 12:14:43 PM »
let's not make this a debate about the efficacy of extended RF in injury prevention in vehicular collisions.  The twins are only 8 months old now, they "need" to rear face for a minimum of 16 more months.  ("need" and not just need, because IDK if there are any legal obligations around this, it could vary by state.)  But basically there is a consensus around this RF this and the AAP recommends RF until at least 2. 

COlady, I think it is clear, but I just want to reiterate that my recommendation to find a different car seat and not get a bigger car has no bearing on your decision (which I happen to agree with) to extended RF.  I don't think that the sale of your current car and subsequent purchase of a similarly compact car with differing interior, uh, geometry that might work better would be unreasonable, though.  But I think a "bigger" vehicle is unnecessary.

(Don't let those soccer moms tell you that you'll definitely need more.  I could fit a lot of soccer balls in the back of our matrix.  IDK what kind of enormous soccer balls these soccer moms have that require SUVs and Minivans.  We road trip and camp with a full load of gear, and the matrix can handle it all.)

mm1970

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2015, 12:42:11 PM »
I see all these posts on here about people being crazy for buying an SUV just because they had kids....but now I kind of get why it might be a good idea.  When I got pregnant we had no plans on changing up our vehicles.  We have a 2007 Subaru Legacy (mine) and a 2013 4 door Toyota Tacoma (his).  We were incredibly surprised to find that my car was impossible to drive with two infant seats in the back.  The front and passenger seats had to be so far forward that I couldn't actually drive the vehicle or have a passenger for that matter. I'm 5'9" so taller than average (husband is 6'2'')...but a person would literally need to be 5'2'' to drive my Legacy with the seat like that. We couldn't pull the trigger on a different vehicle at that time because all of the baby expenses were pretty overwhelming to us. I just purchased new convertible carseats that will be rear facing for as long as possible (5X safer than forward facing) and they're just as huge as the infant seats front to back.

Now, 8 months later, I'm driving my husband's truck with the babies and he drives the Subaru.  The babies fit in the truck fine but it's not ideal now that winter is approaching. I need somewhere to put the giant double stroller and in the back where it gets snowed on really isn't ideal.  I suggested to my husband that we could get a topper for the truck (I don't know how much those are but definitely cheaper than a new vehicle). He's been looking at them but isn't excited about them.

If I had my way we would sell the truck and get an SUV that better meets our needs.  I suggested this to my husband and he isn't budging.  He loves his truck and we saved for 10 years before finally getting a new vehicle (I realize not entirely mustacian but we aren't as hardcore as some on here). I don't really want a truck and an SUV...two expensive to maintain and insure vehicles. It would make more sense to trade the truck. Help!
Funny story.

I have a very good friend who has a little boy.  She and her husband "take turns" getting cars.  Her 1993 Honda Civic lived a very long time (in fact someone else still is driving it!).  Her husband had an old Jeep.  She upgraded to a RAV4 when she was pregnant.

Fast forward a few years.  When her son is 2 she gets pregnant with twins!  She says "I need a new car, my RAV won't be big enough."  First, I suggested she check to see if she could fit 3 Diono radians. (She's 5'1", so there was less of an issue with leg room).  However, I'd already done research, and knew that many of these "SUVs" aren't actually configured well for 3 car seats across. So before you do anything, for sure check car seat forums.

I told her "Time to get the minivan!"  She said "no, it's hubby's turn for a car, not mine.  He will NOT get a minivan."  So, they traded in his Jeep for an Explorer with the third row.

Months go by and I don't see her (which is sad, I know, but we were both in the throes of motherhood.  My younger child is less than a year older than her twins.)  I stop by to drop off some baby clothing, and what do I see?  A Toyota Sienna in her driveway.

So of course I tease her about it.  "I told you to get the minivan!"  She said "MM, it was awful.  With the two baby seats in the car, the ONLY way to get our son in his carseat was through the back/ trunk.  It was too hard to do that."

In any event, I kept my 2nd child rear facing for...eh...1.5 years I think.  Maybe closer to two?  Longer than *most* of my friends thought that I should.  I eventually switched him because he kept kicking his brother in the face.  The rear facing convertible seat was in the center - was the only way it fit into our small cars.  Note that there are different convertible seats. I  have used several Britax that work well, but the Diono Radians are REALLY tall and hard to fit.

So, that said - if you have two rear facing seats, they will be behind the driver's seats and passenger seats.  You will need to have length in the car.  Your honest best bet for space is a minivan, not an SUV.  There are some SUVs that may work, but they tend to be the larger ones, which get worse gas mileage compared to a minivan.  There *may* be some cars like station wagons that could work.  Or, perhaps, a "full size" car like a Camry or Sonata or ...?  Think cars with leg room in the back.

My friends with twins or multiple kids in carseats have gone with minivans.  We made do without, but our boys are 6 years apart, so we could swing the rear facing seat in the center with a backless booster for short trips, and rear facing behind my seat (because I'm 5'2") for longer trips.

mm1970

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2015, 12:45:33 PM »
I have 2 kids, not twins, but for a long time the both rear faced  (The kids are 2 years apart, but we RF to age 5).  Our 2005 Toyota Matrix fits them just fine.  You and Dad might have to sit more upright, but it's doable.

My sister does have twins, and they can both RF in a Civic and in their Mazda 3.  My BIL is around 6' and it works just fine. If your carseat is the problem, look into getting one that fits in the car.  Spending hundreds on a couple of car seats to fit in your car make much more sense than spending thousands on a car to accommodate the car seats.   

I also know another family with a couple of tall parents and they own a Civic and a Matrix for their family of 4.  It works, really.  Don't make excuses to get a bigger car!

The forums at car-safety.org are full of helpful CPS Techs that can probably make more thorough car seat recommendations than mustachians.
This is a good point, because we did have a RF carseat in our Matrix for awhile.  It worked.  But it did not work with the Radian - it worked with the shorter Britax Roundabout.  The key was to get the seat that fit.

Certain Britax seats go to 60 pounds, ours only went to 40 pounds.  We figured we'd switch to FF by the time we needed more than a 40-lb limit (our boys are small).

However, if you have big kids (my 3 YO is 30 lbs, he's got friends who are over 40 lbs), and are going to RF kids that are 40, 50, 60 lbs, then it's going to be more of an issue - hence a full sized car or minivan.

Also, not all minivans seat 8, some only seat 6 or 7.

catccc

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2015, 12:55:07 PM »
I have 2 kids, not twins, but for a long time the both rear faced  (The kids are 2 years apart, but we RF to age 5).  Our 2005 Toyota Matrix fits them just fine.  You and Dad might have to sit more upright, but it's doable.

My sister does have twins, and they can both RF in a Civic and in their Mazda 3.  My BIL is around 6' and it works just fine. If your carseat is the problem, look into getting one that fits in the car.  Spending hundreds on a couple of car seats to fit in your car make much more sense than spending thousands on a car to accommodate the car seats.   

I also know another family with a couple of tall parents and they own a Civic and a Matrix for their family of 4.  It works, really.  Don't make excuses to get a bigger car!

The forums at car-safety.org are full of helpful CPS Techs that can probably make more thorough car seat recommendations than mustachians.
This is a good point, because we did have a RF carseat in our Matrix for awhile.  It worked.  But it did not work with the Radian - it worked with the shorter Britax Roundabout.  The key was to get the seat that fit.

Interesting, we had 2 RF Diono Radians in our Matrix.  DH is not 6'2" - only 5'11", but has long legs.  He sits fairly upright.  The other dad I know with the matrix is def. taller than DH, and he's got a RF car seat in the matrix.  But anyway, yes, get a seat that fits.

Jack

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2015, 01:08:19 PM »
let's not make this a debate about the efficacy of extended RF in injury prevention in vehicular collisions.  The twins are only 8 months old now, they "need" to rear face for a minimum of 16 more months.  ("need" and not just need, because IDK if there are any legal obligations around this, it could vary by state.)  But basically there is a consensus around this RF this and the AAP recommends RF until at least 2. 

No, we can't just declare it to be a "need" and throw cost-effectiveness out the window because cost-effectiveness is an important part of decision-making. Otherwise, you might as well say "the safest thing is to drive a damn tank, so obviously that's what I should do!"

One of the important principles of this entire forum/blog/philosophy is "constant optimization," right? Well, arbitrarily excluding factors from consideration when making a decision is the opposite of that.

By the way, AAP recommendations are fine and dandy, but you have to remember that it's not the one paying so it has little reason to consider cost.

And if going against the "consensus" were some kind of deadly heresy, this forum wouldn't exist in the first place.

lbmustache

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2015, 01:40:51 PM »
I agree with the others, try to rent a car you are considering or haul the car seats to the dealer (or wherever you are buying the car from). I don't think you need something massive like a Highlander - but the plus of those SUVs is the middle seats slide and recline for maximum adjustability.

Perhaps a CR-V or Accord or something will suit your needs better while still getting decent MPGs.

Or you need to have another talk with your husband. He wants to keep the truck but won't get a cover? It doesn't have to be those faux-camper/SUV covers (idk what they are called), it can just be a tonneau cover like below.


Argyle

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2015, 02:05:51 PM »
If you're tempted to get an SUV and you're worried about safety, remember that SUVs have higher roll-over statistics than cars that are lower to the ground.  Safety is not just about which direction the babies are facing.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2015, 02:09:11 PM »
If you're tempted to get an SUV and you're worried about safety, remember that SUVs have higher roll-over statistics than cars that are lower to the ground.  Safety is not just about which direction the babies are facing.

Okay, can someone help me with this? It's easy to find safety data WITHIN classes of cars (ie, all midsize SUVs), but I can't find comparisons of safety BETWEEN classes (ie, is a full-size truck safer than a mid-size SUV)? Anyone know where to find this data?

Jack

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2015, 02:14:35 PM »
If you're tempted to get an SUV and you're worried about safety, remember that SUVs have higher roll-over statistics than cars that are lower to the ground.  Safety is not just about which direction the babies are facing.

Okay, can someone help me with this? It's easy to find safety data WITHIN classes of cars (ie, all midsize SUVs), but I can't find comparisons of safety BETWEEN classes (ie, is a full-size truck safer than a mid-size SUV)? Anyone know where to find this data?

I linked to a source (the MMM article "Safety is an Expensive Illusion") earlier:

Personally, as far as safety goes I think we're way beyond the point of diminishing returns at this point.

It included this table from the NHTSA:



So yes, a full-size pickup is safer than a mid-size SUV (as of 2004, at least).
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 02:16:17 PM by Jack »

Bracken_Joy

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2015, 02:28:04 PM »
If you're tempted to get an SUV and you're worried about safety, remember that SUVs have higher roll-over statistics than cars that are lower to the ground.  Safety is not just about which direction the babies are facing.

Okay, can someone help me with this? It's easy to find safety data WITHIN classes of cars (ie, all midsize SUVs), but I can't find comparisons of safety BETWEEN classes (ie, is a full-size truck safer than a mid-size SUV)? Anyone know where to find this data?

Okay, I found a source that compiles the data from multiple safety reviews (IIHS and the NHTSA) and has it all in one list, which is what I was looking for. For any other data nerds: http://www.informedforlife.org/

Jack- I did see that link, and have read it many times before. My concern with the stats pulled there is those stats end up being reflective of confounding variables- Ie, SUVs are most likely to be in crashes, but is that because of visibility or the sleep deprived parents who drive them? Which is still very valuable to know, but I wanted the data from crash-test style comparison.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2015, 02:36:34 PM »
What about a Mazda 5? Not as big as a full-on minivan and if you fold the rear seats down, you can get your double stroller in there.

I really wish I had a minivan sometimes. I wished I had one for getting the car seats in and out when my kids were babies, and I wish I had one now that they are 3 and 4 and I always worry about them whapping other people's cars when they climb in and out. It's the sliding doors. I waaaant them.

catccc

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2015, 02:59:49 PM »
let's not make this a debate about the efficacy of extended RF in injury prevention in vehicular collisions.  The twins are only 8 months old now, they "need" to rear face for a minimum of 16 more months.  ("need" and not just need, because IDK if there are any legal obligations around this, it could vary by state.)  But basically there is a consensus around this RF this and the AAP recommends RF until at least 2. 

No, we can't just declare it to be a "need" and throw cost-effectiveness out the window because cost-effectiveness is an important part of decision-making. Otherwise, you might as well say "the safest thing is to drive a damn tank, so obviously that's what I should do!"

One of the important principles of this entire forum/blog/philosophy is "constant optimization," right? Well, arbitrarily excluding factors from consideration when making a decision is the opposite of that.

By the way, AAP recommendations are fine and dandy, but you have to remember that it's not the one paying so it has little reason to consider cost.

And if going against the "consensus" were some kind of deadly heresy, this forum wouldn't exist in the first place.

I never said you cannot go against the consensus, that's a slippery slope.  Just consider this a non-negotiable for the OP, like in a case study with tithing or a dog or whatever that person's thing is. 

OP has already decided she is going to extended RF.  And I did look up state regulations for CO (assuming OP's username refers to the state).  This is not an arbitrary factor, it's a legal requirement.  The babies are 8 months old and are currently required by state law to rear-face. 

If you want to come back and tell us all about how you are going FF your kid at 1 if/when you have a baby, that's fine.  That's your prerogative as a parent to make that choice for your children.  We all have different backgrounds and get to pick and choose what we worry about as parents.  I choose to RF because in the unlikely event of an accident, my preschooler, who's spinal cord is not fully ossified, has a better chance of walking away.  It's important to me because an immediate family member had a spinal cord injury, and guess what, being quadriplegic sucks!  This decision doesn't cost me anything extra, it's not an issue of optimizing.  We don't need a newer or bigger car for it.

slschierer

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2015, 03:05:05 PM »
When I became pregnant with my second child, I HAD to have an SUV, too.  We got a "great deal" on a GMC Yukon, and I loved it--for a few months.  Then, I started to add up the fuel consumption.  I sold the Yukon private party and purchased a Honda Accord.  Both kids and their car seats fit great.  I'm very petite, but my husband is 6'3".  We have had no issues with comfort for either of us.  The backseat of the Honda Accord is quite roomy, and the truck is also huge.  To be honest, for our family of 4, the Accord suits our needs much better than an SUV.  One other positive, my Accord averages 34 MPG!  That's so much better than the 14-16 MPG I was getting with the Yukon!

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2015, 03:12:25 PM »
let's not make this a debate about the efficacy of extended RF in injury prevention in vehicular collisions.  The twins are only 8 months old now, they "need" to rear face for a minimum of 16 more months.  ("need" and not just need, because IDK if there are any legal obligations around this, it could vary by state.)  But basically there is a consensus around this RF this and the AAP recommends RF until at least 2. 

No, we can't just declare it to be a "need" and throw cost-effectiveness out the window because cost-effectiveness is an important part of decision-making. Otherwise, you might as well say "the safest thing is to drive a damn tank, so obviously that's what I should do!"

One of the important principles of this entire forum/blog/philosophy is "constant optimization," right? Well, arbitrarily excluding factors from consideration when making a decision is the opposite of that.

By the way, AAP recommendations are fine and dandy, but you have to remember that it's not the one paying so it has little reason to consider cost.

And if going against the "consensus" were some kind of deadly heresy, this forum wouldn't exist in the first place.

I never said you cannot go against the consensus, that's a slippery slope.  Just consider this a non-negotiable for the OP, like in a case study with tithing or a dog or whatever that person's thing is. 

OP has already decided she is going to extended RF.  And I did look up state regulations for CO (assuming OP's username refers to the state).  This is not an arbitrary factor, it's a legal requirement.  The babies are 8 months old and are currently required by state law to rear-face. 

If you want to come back and tell us all about how you are going FF your kid at 1 if/when you have a baby, that's fine.  That's your prerogative as a parent to make that choice for your children.  We all have different backgrounds and get to pick and choose what we worry about as parents.  I choose to RF because in the unlikely event of an accident, my preschooler, who's spinal cord is not fully ossified, has a better chance of walking away.  It's important to me because an immediate family member had a spinal cord injury, and guess what, being quadriplegic sucks!  This decision doesn't cost me anything extra, it's not an issue of optimizing.  We don't need a newer or bigger car for it.

+1


Jack, I'm sure COlady is optimizing while considering lots of factors; cost-effectiveness, safety, efficiency, mileage, ease of use... all while sleep-deprived and exhausted from the demands of parenting two infants. ;)

The AAP recommendations have encouraged 3 states (so far) to enact rear-facing laws. 
Quote
3 states (California, New Jersey and Oklahoma) require children younger than two be in a rear-facing child seat.
Source: http://www.ghsa.org/html/stateinfo/laws/childsafety_laws.html  There are convertible car seats available that will rear face to 40# for under $50 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Cosco-Scenera-NEXT-Convertible-Car-Seat-Choose-your-Print/41126739), so cost of the seat isn't really a factor when it comes to extended rear facing. 

MicroRN

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2015, 03:30:16 PM »
I'd check out new gear before a new car.  I'm 5'8" and put 2 RF Britax Marathons in the back of my Civic (not twins, but born close together).  DH is 5'10".  We also had 2 RF in the Prius with no problems.  I could also fit either our Baby Jogger City Select or Joovy Caboose Ultralight (both double strollers) in the trunk of the Civic along with diaper bag and everything else we need.  In the Prius we fit the stroller, 2 pack n' plays, and our bags and a small cooler for a weekend trip. 
     
If you're certain you need a new vehicle, I'd go for a station wagon type.  I had an Accord station wagon years ago, and wish I still owned it.  My parents have a Subaru Forester and love it.  It handles better on ice than any other vehicle I've driven.  We used it when traveling once and had tons of room to install car seats, and still plenty of rear storage space. 

Jack

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2015, 03:52:56 PM »
I never said you cannot go against the consensus, that's a slippery slope.  Just consider this a non-negotiable for the OP, like in a case study with tithing or a dog or whatever that person's thing is.

I was reminded of the tithing thread too... and I'm on the "everything is negotiable" side of that argument as well.

OP has already decided she is going to extended RF.  And I did look up state regulations for CO (assuming OP's username refers to the state).  This is not an arbitrary factor, it's a legal requirement.  The babies are 8 months old and are currently required by state law to rear-face. 

Well shit, if it's against the law then that changes things, doesn't it? Did I say anywhere in my post that she should violate the law? I don't think I did, but please, let me know if that's not the case!

On a side note, Colorado law is fucking stupid: I own a 2-seat sports car and a regular-cab truck; apparently if I had a baby I wouldn't be allowed to drive it around at all because they aren't allowed in the front seat. That's because airbags are dangerous to kids, but my Miata is too old to have a passenger airbag in the first place. So, to recap, the law would prohibit me from doing something due to a danger that doesn't even apply in my case! Fucking nanny state run amok...

The AAP recommendations have encouraged 3 states (so far) to enact rear-facing laws. 
Quote
3 states (California, New Jersey and Oklahoma) require children younger than two be in a rear-facing child seat.
Source: http://www.ghsa.org/html/stateinfo/laws/childsafety_laws.html  There are convertible car seats available that will rear face to 40# for under $50 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Cosco-Scenera-NEXT-Convertible-Car-Seat-Choose-your-Print/41126739), so cost of the seat isn't really a factor when it comes to extended rear facing. 

Sure, the $50 cost of a car seat isn't really a factor... but the cost of having to replace the whole goddamn car is! "Recommending" is fine, but when the law disallows me the use of my property I consider that to be an unjust taking.

(Just so we're clear: when I have kids I'll be buying a 4-seat car for them -- if nothing else, at least because we'd need to be able to carry more than two people -- but also because that marginal increase in safety compared to what I'm driving now really is significant. I only object to car seat laws getting so out-of-hand that even a car as eminently practical as a Subaru Legacy can't accommodate them!)

ysette9

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2015, 04:23:39 PM »
If someone hasn't already been very specific about this, I recommend new carseats. I personally got the Corroco cumbi convertible carseat (http://www.amazon.com/Combi-Coccoro-Convertible-Seat-Grape/dp/B00RU1V1NC) and have been very pleased with it. It is literally the smallest convertible carseat I could find on the market. I drive a Golf and there is room on either side of it for an adult to sit.

My husband didn't like that seat too much and went out and bought something different for his car. Let me tell you, in comparison the seat he chose is truly massive. He has a RAV4 and even though the car is bigger the back seat has less room for passengers due to the size of that seat.

Finally - keep those babies rear facing for as long as possible. 3 or 4 years old and rear facing is still perfectly acceptable and safer than turning them around. Don't get fooled into thinking that once their feet touch the back seat they need to be turned around. Babies' legs have this cool folding mechanism called knees that allow them to fit in smaller spaces comfortable. :)

parkette

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2015, 05:05:02 PM »
Chiming in primarily to share that we have 10-month old twins and I sympathize with the situation! We drive a 2007 Toyota Matrix with 2 RF Britax Boulevards and they fit fine. We're shorter though- 5'2" and 5'10". There is a lot of pressure to get a minivan, which I've resisted so far based on buying the right sized car for our family. My husband would love a minivan though and I guess he has a point- he does a lot of handyman/renovation work and he can haul things more easily than with our trailer. We've been leveraging that my parents and brother have vans and borrow it when something won't fit in the trailer, or we're travelling, or we need an extra seat for whatever reason.

COlady

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2015, 06:18:51 PM »
Chiming in primarily to share that we have 10-month old twins and I sympathize with the situation! We drive a 2007 Toyota Matrix with 2 RF Britax Boulevards and they fit fine. We're shorter though- 5'2" and 5'10". There is a lot of pressure to get a minivan, which I've resisted so far based on buying the right sized car for our family. My husband would love a minivan though and I guess he has a point- he does a lot of handyman/renovation work and he can haul things more easily than with our trailer. We've been leveraging that my parents and brother have vans and borrow it when something won't fit in the trailer, or we're travelling, or we need an extra seat for whatever reason.

Can your husband comfortably drive the car? I'm assuming you have a carseat behind each seat (not using the middle)?


Fuggled

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2015, 11:51:03 AM »
I bought the Britax Advocate Clicktight (not cheap) and they are some of the smallest convertible seats front to back when rear facing per my friend that's a carseat tech.

Out of curiosity, what is a carseat tech?

catccc

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2015, 12:18:19 PM »
I bought the Britax Advocate Clicktight (not cheap) and they are some of the smallest convertible seats front to back when rear facing per my friend that's a carseat tech.

Out of curiosity, what is a carseat tech?

I think OP is referring to a CPST, a Child Passenger Safety Technician.  There's an organization that has established  education/knowledge standards that an individual can meet to earn a certification as a CPST.  The idea is that parents know you are well versed in child passenger safety and child safety restraints to educate and advise the public on proper use of child safety restraints.  If you've ever had your local hospital or fire department offer free car seat checks, it is likely a CPST that is administering the service.

Actually, to bring this back to relevant to MMM, I wonder if being a CPST has side gig potential...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 12:23:38 PM by catccc »

parkette

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2015, 04:37:31 AM »

Chiming in primarily to share that we have 10-month old twins and I sympathize with the situation! We drive a 2007 Toyota Matrix with 2 RF Britax Boulevards and they fit fine. We're shorter though- 5'2" and 5'10". There is a lot of pressure to get a minivan, which I've resisted so far based on buying the right sized car for our family. My husband would love a minivan though and I guess he has a point- he does a lot of handyman/renovation work and he can haul things more easily than with our trailer. We've been leveraging that my parents and brother have vans and borrow it when something won't fit in the trailer, or we're travelling, or we need an extra seat for whatever reason.

Can your husband comfortably drive the car? I'm assuming you have a carseat behind each seat (not using the middle)?

Yes, no problem.

Eric222

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2015, 07:16:55 AM »
Chiming in primarily to share that we have 10-month old twins and I sympathize with the situation! We drive a 2007 Toyota Matrix with 2 RF Britax Boulevards and they fit fine. We're shorter though- 5'2" and 5'10". There is a lot of pressure to get a minivan, which I've resisted so far based on buying the right sized car for our family. My husband would love a minivan though and I guess he has a point- he does a lot of handyman/renovation work and he can haul things more easily than with our trailer. We've been leveraging that my parents and brother have vans and borrow it when something won't fit in the trailer, or we're travelling, or we need an extra seat for whatever reason.
I'm going to second this - I have a 2010 Toyota Matrix (for now).  I'm 6'0" and was able to fit just fine.  Hatchbacks are awesomely mustachian.

mm1970

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2015, 12:54:07 PM »
Quote
On a side note, Colorado law is fucking stupid: I own a 2-seat sports car and a regular-cab truck; apparently if I had a baby I wouldn't be allowed to drive it around at all because they aren't allowed in the front seat. That's because airbags are dangerous to kids, but my Miata is too old to have a passenger airbag in the first place. So, to recap, the law would prohibit me from doing something due to a danger that doesn't even apply in my case! Fucking nanny state run amok...
There may be a loophole for that.

There is in California.

Jack

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Re: New Car Needed for Twins. Suggestions?
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2015, 09:42:49 AM »
Quote
On a side note, Colorado law is fucking stupid: I own a 2-seat sports car and a regular-cab truck; apparently if I had a baby I wouldn't be allowed to drive it around at all because they aren't allowed in the front seat. That's because airbags are dangerous to kids, but my Miata is too old to have a passenger airbag in the first place. So, to recap, the law would prohibit me from doing something due to a danger that doesn't even apply in my case! Fucking nanny state run amok...
There may be a loophole for that.

There is in California.

I looked it up before posting, and there is no loophole. That's why it's so ridiculous.

I'm just glad Georgia law is reasonable enough to make an exception ("A child under age 8 may only be in the front seat, properly restrained in a car seat or booster seat when the vehicle has no rear seating position appropriate for correctly restraining a child").

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!