Is ethical consumerism worth it?

[Mellabella]

Hi guys,

What do you all think about ethical consumerism? I'm always torn when I go to the grocery store between buying the cheapest thing and buying the thing that is better for the environment/fair trade/free range. I also feel a bit guilty buying the Coles/Woolworths brand of things because I know they make it really hard for small business to compete. Basically I have an overactive conscience and it could cost me a lot if I always shopped accordingly. At the moment I pay a little more for free range eggs and chicken (but don't buy organic), I buy recycled toilet paper and locally farmed milk and then everything else cheap/mainstream. So I feel I am striking the balance ok but would love to know how you navigate this as it seems lot of Mustachians are quite ethically minded. Thanks.

[HappierAtHome]

Hey, you're Australian! Awesome. If you put 'Australian' in your topic title you'll get more relevant/local responses.

A bigger stash means shit if there's no clean drinking water and we're dying from pollution and heatwaves. I would argue strongly in favour of paying more for the environmentally friendly choice, assuming it is truly better (not just green washing) AND you are doing okay financially.

Paging @Fresh Bread and @mspym and @Anatidae V as they are other Aussies coming to terms with this trade-off.

[Hirondelle]

Instead of only paying more for ethical products, you could start out with buying less unethical products and/or buying ethical products that are cheaper.

Examples:
- Instead of buying organic meat, reduce meat consumption and add in some beans
- Instead of buying ethical clothing, visit a 2nd hand clothing store
- If you drive often, try to carpool instead of immediately upgrading to an electric vehicle

I can think of a few more examples and of course it depends on what you consider 'ethical' (fair trade, environmentally friendly, socially conscious?).

[Mellabella]

Hi Happier at Home. Thanks for the tip fellow Aussie, I have added that now. :)

I totally agree. My partner and I often have the 'you're a drop in the ocean' argument when we go grocery shopping together but I personally feel better living according to my values/conscience.

Hirondelle I was trying to buy ethically made clothes but it got ridiculously expensive so now I try and just buy quality stuff that will last rather than end up in landfill. And I do try and avoid the well known worst brands. I do love my op shopping. :) I eat a low carb diet eat so quite a lot of meat. I drive a small car but should start cycling to work as I am pretty close. That could make even more of a difference than what I buy I guess.

[HappierAtHome]

There are a bazillion footprint calculators online you can use to see where to get 'bang for your buck' in reducing your impact. The usual suspects are reducing intake of meat and dairy (if you can't do this, it's even more important that you buy meat and dairy from the least impactful farming sources possible), reducing your use of passive transportation, reducing your flights, and reducing your purchasing of consumer products generally. I'm guessing you've already got your unnecessary spending dialled down given you're on this site. If cycling to work means you and your partner can share a car and get rid of one, that'll make even more of a difference than just driving less.

[HappierAtHome]

Oh, and email or call your MPs to let them know climate change will decide your vote at the next election!

Edited to add: plus reducing food waste. Food waste is 40% of the average household's contribution to landfill.

Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this, clearly. The Climate Council Climate Action Toolkit (google for the pdf / site) is super helpful.

[Hirondelle]

Good points made by HappierAtHome. Voting is certainly a big way to have an influence too. Especially if you can get more active in the local politics.

Definitely start cycling to work! It's not only a plus for the environment, but also for your health, your wallet and if enough people would start cycling this could mean a pretty big difference in safety (imagine no fear of being hit by a car as a cyclist/pedestrian!).

Regarding meats; if you don't want to/cannot cut back try to switch to lower-impact meat/dairy. The order of emissions is pretty much this: Lamb, beef, cheese, pork, turkey, chicken, eggs, milk/yoghurt. If you can replace the lamb, beef and cheese by something less impactful (chicken is about 4x less emissions than beef) you're also making a huge difference.

[Hula Hoop]

Wow Hirondelle - I'm so sad about cheese.  My life is so blah without it. 

Anyway, where does fish fit into things?  Is it better or worse than chicken or does it depend on what kind of fish?  We've been trying to increase our fish intake for health reasons but maybe the environmental reasons cancel those out.

We're omnivores but have been trying to eat less meat and more beans/pulses for a while now.  We probably have red meat about once every 2 weeks although we have things like ham sandwiches for lunch sometimes.  But we all love cheese so now I'm not sure if we're doing this right.

[Linea_Norway]

I also pay a bit more for free range organic eggs, because I know that the chickens that produce them have a better life. I also buy sausages from pigs with a large outside area. The sausages are alsomgood quality with a lot of meat in them. The cheapest sausages are at least 60% fat. So buying the biological sausages is better for your health.
But I don't buy other organic stuff. (All food is organic, strange choice of word, but never mind). I have understood that organic food doesn't use normal methods spraying pesticides, but uses other, not registered substances that could also be harmful. Also organic food needs more lang to grow on. If the whole world would eat organic, there wouldn't be enough place to grow the food.
So I try to balance a bit. I buy normal vegetables, but organic eggs for the chickens welfare. I also try to eat vegetarian a few times a week to reduce my footprint. I don't fly to other parts of the planet, but do vacation mostly in my own country. I also like to pick/catch some food outside, like mushrooms, fish, greens and other stuff.

[DeltaBond]

I would only pay more if you have thoroughly researched that product.  I'll give you an example.  I used to buy the "free range" "cage free" eggs, then I moved from the suburbs to a rural area and learned through the state's Ag department (I'm in the U.S.) all about raising chickens, and am on year 3 of that.  Ok, what have I learned?  Cage free, free range, and even "vegetarian raised", are not what you think.  Those chickens are not out in an open field somewhwere.  They are in a barn stall that gives each chicken 3 square feet of space.  They CAN live that way, but just because they aren't in stacked cages does not mean they aren't still overly confined.  Also, there is no such thing as a vegetarian chicken.  That chicken would die, and even if you tried feeding them a vegetarian diet, they eat every bug, spider and worm they can reach.  Even in confinement, there are bugs.

So that was a good lesson on eggs, at least.  Organic is another word that has little meaning now, and having gotten to know farmers who happen to currently produce products that can be sold as "organic"... I'm personally not a fan.  They have to use so many pesticides and fertilizers, well, I finally realized why every time I ate any organic vegetable I'd end up with the, um, well, I was in the bathroom the rest of that day. 

This is only an example of things I have learned about, and I won't pay extra for any of those.  If you have a farmers' market nearby, or whatever that might be in your area, and you can buy eggs from someone who truly does have their chickens out in a field like I do, buy those.  Fresh eggs can't be beat.  Chickens get the sunshine, exercise, and a better diet.

I gave up on "ethical" spending, even after all the political nonsense being slung around in my country.  Whomever has the best product for my standards will get my money.  I just bought dishes made in the USA and not in China.  They were not overly expensive, and I know their glaze doesn't have led in it.  Pick and choose, my friend.  Don't go bankrupt over labels.

[Fresh Bread]

@Linda_Norway - I think the word biological has lost something in the translation. Is it free-range or organic maybe?

[Hirondelle]

@Hula Hoop if you click on the link I had in my reply you'll find farmed salmon between pork and turkey and canned tuna right after chicken. Other fishes aren't mentioned and I guess how bad fish is will depend on where you live and whether it's local fish, farmed fish or flown-in fish.

I also totally agree with you on the cheese. I LOVE cheese. I have found some decent vegan-replacement for grated cheese that I occasionally use, but haven't found any yet for any 'fancy' cheeses or the type of cheese I put on bread.

[Linea_Norway]

@Linda_Norway - I think the word biological has lost something in the translation. Is it free-range or organic maybe?

I speak three languages and get sometimes a bit confused. In Dutch they call this type of food "biological". In Norway we use "økologisk" and in English you use "organic". So I changed biological into organic in my previous post.

[Anatidae V]

Hi! This kind of thing can send me into a tailspin, because the world is in an incredibly shitty place and sure, I'm a drop in the bucket so *end of world hysteria*. I've learnt through this site and the delightful peoples of the forum that small changes towards the life you want to live (ethical, frugal, etc) have a big impact because you can keep doing them without your life imploding, and giving up in a depressed huff.

So that said:
- I buy our food in the most sustainable packaging/ best practice production combination I can, and choose the lower cost where the winner isn't clear (e.g. I pay $$ for Uncle Toby's oats because they come in cardboard boxes)
- I quit dairy due to my toddler son's allergy and, being a creature of habit, am more grumpy about my inability to find good packaging options than thinking much on what cheese tastes like any more (it's been over a year). If you can't give up cheese right now, DON'T. Give up the rest of dairy, or most of your meat, or whatever. Take the path of least resistance for every change and one day you might drop cheese because you don't care enough about it any more.
- I buy the best I can with the info I currently can, until I have time and energy to inform myself further (e.g. buying the cheapest free range eggs until I can research the production farms further).
- I am trying out kangaroo meat for our family's red meat intake at home, because it's better for our local environment than any of the ones on the list @Hirondelle provided. If I lived in another country, my "low impact meat" solution would be different. At some point I'll also research beef producers and ask my local butcher questions, but right now it's easy to just swap for kangaroo (and ask my butcher aunt on occasion if she's got any meat available).
- Clothing: I buy clothes I will wear a LOT, in the best fabrics I can, and am focussed on biodegradable/ natural fabrics AND # of wears as my current main criteria. I've bought many unethical clothes recently but they are cotton and I will wear them a lot, so this is as far as I can manage right now.

Treat yourself with kindness for your past actions and don't beat yourself up over slips, and every bit really does count especially if you can help others see that change without judgement (you don't judge on them, they don't judge on you).

Also I'm following for more ideas!

[Fresh Bread]

I saw the bat signal from HaH.

In answer to your question is ethical consumerism worth it, I'd say the short answer is yes. My reasoning is that to be happy we have to live according to our values. So if you come across info like X clothing company exploits minors, and that bothers you, and you fact check it and find it to be true, then you can't buy there and live without a nagging feeling.

What I wouldn't do is spend heaps of time searching out the ultimate most ethical thing because there are so many levels and impacts to consider and the mental load is too high. It can be quite bad for your mental health and you can get analysis paralysis because the information out there is not complete.

My plan falls apart a bit if you don't have the money to follow your conscience in each instance. That's when the substitution products mentioned above would be great eg second hand any brand clothing is probably better than new ethically made.

There was discussion somewhere else about how great it would be if there was a manual for good living to tell what to buy but yeah, doesn't exist. I read a book called How To Be Good *ages* ago and I remembered feeling more confused by the end as everything was bad in its own way like we should all wear sacks and eat weeds. Not helpful. I might re-read it to see if it's anymore useful now that I have a few more years and more knowledge.

[WhiteTrashCash]

I'm with the previous responders on here when I quote Ed Begley Jr.: "Go for the low-hanging fruit first" when it comes to ethical consumerism. Try simply buying fewer things to start and when you do buy them, get them second-hand. That cuts pollution and waste by a ton.

I buy nearly all my clothing second-hand and I've been using a second-hand bread machine in my kitchen for six years now.

Then, branch out by doing some other simple things that save you money and reduce your footprint. Hang dry your clothes instead of using a dryer. Reuse old containers and bags from food items instead of purchasing storage boxes and bags. Repair things instead of throwing them away or replacing them (I repaired my seven-year-old iPad using a hair dryer, guitar picks, and an eyeglass screwdriver set.)

[The Guru]

I would only pay more if you have thoroughly researched that product.  I'll give you an example.  I used to buy the "free range" "cage free" eggs, then I moved from the suburbs to a rural area and learned through the state's Ag department (I'm in the U.S.) all about raising chickens, and am on year 3 of that.  Ok, what have I learned?  Cage free, free range, and even "vegetarian raised", are not what you think.  Those chickens are not out in an open field somewhwere.  They are in a barn stall that gives each chicken 3 square feet of space.  They CAN live that way, but just because they aren't in stacked cages does not mean they aren't still overly confined.  Also, there is no such thing as a vegetarian chicken.  That chicken would die, and even if you tried feeding them a vegetarian diet, they eat every bug, spider and worm they can reach.  Even in confinement, there are bugs.

So that was a good lesson on eggs, at least.  Organic is another word that has little meaning now, and having gotten to know farmers who happen to currently produce products that can be sold as "organic"... I'm personally not a fan.  They have to use so many pesticides and fertilizers, well, I finally realized why every time I ate any organic vegetable I'd end up with the, um, well, I was in the bathroom the rest of that day. 

This is only an example of things I have learned about, and I won't pay extra for any of those.  If you have a farmers' market nearby, or whatever that might be in your area, and you can buy eggs from someone who truly does have their chickens out in a field like I do, buy those.  Fresh eggs can't be beat.  Chickens get the sunshine, exercise, and a better diet.

I gave up on "ethical" spending, even after all the political nonsense being slung around in my country.  Whomever has the best product for my standards will get my money.  I just bought dishes made in the USA and not in China.  They were not overly expensive, and I know their glaze doesn't have led in it.  Pick and choose, my friend.  Don't go bankrupt over labels.

A farmer that is Certified Organic vs. *winkwink "organic" wouldn't be using synthetic pesticides or fertilizers. However, as I understand it, they might be using heavier amounts of manure as fertilzer/soil conditioner which *could* contain E. coli- hence your unfortunate digestive experiences.

[Metalcat]

It can be complicated and expensive, or it can be cheap and simple.

As PPs have said, just grabbing at the low hanging fruit is by far the biggest ethical impact you can have.

You can research until your eyes bleed to find a clothing retailer who uses undyed fabrics, sourced from ethical sources, who makes garments with employees paid a fair wage in safe working conditions, whose corporate responsibility programs you agree with, and have no political or religious affiliations that you conflict with and charge a massive premium for their garments, and you can buy to your heart's content.

OR

You can buy less clothes and stick to mostly used.

The same goes with everything else.
You get the biggest bang by driving less, buying less, prioritizing less plastic waste, less meat in general, buying less clothes/stuff, etc, etc.

All of this has so much more impact than what three red peppers you buy each week. Also, the less you consume, the easier it is to spend more on what matters to you.

Love cute happy cows? Hate cow concentration camps? Love steak?
Easy. Stop eating steak as a day to day meal, have it a few times a year as a special treat, pay whatever it takes to only eat the happiest of cows, and savour it more as a result.
Problem solved!

So yes, ethical consumerism is absolutely worth it, because in general, it will help drive you to consume less. Win win.
Ethics are actually a far more powerful driver to spend less than to spend more. It's a bit counter intuitive on the surface, but it's true.

I used to buy only cheap meats, then ethics drove me to refuse to buy industrial farmed meat because I could afford to live by my ethics.
Frugality then motivated me to stop buying meat weekly and cook a lot more vegetarian meals.
Choosing expensive meat made me spend infinitely less and cut my grocery bill by over 50%.

Putting ethics first saved me way more money than prioritizing cheap meat did. Remember, it's more what you don't buy that saves money than what versions of things you choose to buy.

[gaja]

Regarding fish:
There are two aspects; climate emissions, and how depleted the populations are.

1) climate emissions:
Generally speaking, the emissions from feed production is the largest emission factor for farmed fish (except if you start flying fresh fish across the world). So if you want to lower your climate emissions, wild fish is the best choice, and the closer you live to the fishing fields, the better.

2) sustainable populations
A lot of wild fish populations are in trouble because of climate change and over fishing. There are several "green lists" for fish, showing which species are doing ok. This one is in Norwegian, but there are pictures and names in latin, so maybe still of some use: https://www.wwf.no/engasjer-deg/sjomatguiden/beste-sj%C3%B8matvalg-dette-kan-du-trygt-spise

[Zikoris]

I very much buy and according to my ethics, but it doesn't cost more. I just make different choices.

I personally don't think there's a way to kill ethically, so animal products have been out since I was a kid and figured out what was going on there. But vegan food is cheap anyways. Even if it was more expensive, I'd obviously still do it because the alternative involves literal killing, but fortunately vegan stuff has always been substantially cheaper.

Our food waste is pretty low. So far this year we've tossed a few pieces of pita bread that went bad, maybe 3 tablespoons of tomato sauce, half a cilantro sprig that I couldn't use before it went bad, and about half a serving of noodles. I'd say that's actually a bit more than normal.

We don't really buy enough clothing for it to be an issue. Last year I bought two pairs of jeans and two shirts (the shirts were secondhand), my boyfriend bought a pair of pajama pants for his new "work clothes" (self-employment), and we bought some socks and underwear. Are ethical socks and panties even a thing? Maybe someone makes them somewhere?

I'm starting to get into zero waste and reduced plastic as of very recently, and it's pretty cool to learn about and implement.

[Hirondelle]

We don't really buy enough clothing for it to be an issue. Last year I bought two pairs of jeans and two shirts (the shirts were secondhand), my boyfriend bought a pair of pajama pants for his new "work clothes" (self-employment), and we bought some socks and underwear. Are ethical socks and panties even a thing? Maybe someone makes them somewhere?

That's actually a really good one! Socks and panties are like, the only clothing item I buy regularly and especially for socks I couldn't care less about what they look like. Plus if I'd have to increase my annual budget by $5 to buy ethical socks I'd happily do so.

[mountain mustache]

We don't really buy enough clothing for it to be an issue. Last year I bought two pairs of jeans and two shirts (the shirts were secondhand), my boyfriend bought a pair of pajama pants for his new "work clothes" (self-employment), and we bought some socks and underwear. Are ethical socks and panties even a thing? Maybe someone makes them somewhere?

That's actually a really good one! Socks and panties are like, the only clothing item I buy regularly and especially for socks I couldn't care less about what they look like. Plus if I'd have to increase my annual budget by $5 to buy ethical socks I'd happily do so.

Patagonia actually makes some great underwear and socks, that are fair trade certified. They are $$, but I buy like 1 new pair a year and they last forever. They've recently started making a few more styles which is nice, too. For socks I usually buy Darn Tough, which I like because they are made in Vermont, and have a lifetime replacement warranty.

[DeltaBond]

I would only pay more if you have thoroughly researched that product.  I'll give you an example.  I used to buy the "free range" "cage free" eggs, then I moved from the suburbs to a rural area and learned through the state's Ag department (I'm in the U.S.) all about raising chickens, and am on year 3 of that.  Ok, what have I learned?  Cage free, free range, and even "vegetarian raised", are not what you think.  Those chickens are not out in an open field somewhwere.  They are in a barn stall that gives each chicken 3 square feet of space.  They CAN live that way, but just because they aren't in stacked cages does not mean they aren't still overly confined.  Also, there is no such thing as a vegetarian chicken.  That chicken would die, and even if you tried feeding them a vegetarian diet, they eat every bug, spider and worm they can reach.  Even in confinement, there are bugs.

So that was a good lesson on eggs, at least.  Organic is another word that has little meaning now, and having gotten to know farmers who happen to currently produce products that can be sold as "organic"... I'm personally not a fan.  They have to use so many pesticides and fertilizers, well, I finally realized why every time I ate any organic vegetable I'd end up with the, um, well, I was in the bathroom the rest of that day. 

This is only an example of things I have learned about, and I won't pay extra for any of those.  If you have a farmers' market nearby, or whatever that might be in your area, and you can buy eggs from someone who truly does have their chickens out in a field like I do, buy those.  Fresh eggs can't be beat.  Chickens get the sunshine, exercise, and a better diet.

I gave up on "ethical" spending, even after all the political nonsense being slung around in my country.  Whomever has the best product for my standards will get my money.  I just bought dishes made in the USA and not in China.  They were not overly expensive, and I know their glaze doesn't have led in it.  Pick and choose, my friend.  Don't go bankrupt over labels.

A farmer that is Certified Organic vs. *winkwink "organic" wouldn't be using synthetic pesticides or fertilizers. However, as I understand it, they might be using heavier amounts of manure as fertilzer/soil conditioner which *could* contain E. coli- hence your unfortunate digestive experiences.

Not true, I'm sorry.  Logic doesn't always work with this stuff, and even the word "organic" does not mean what it used to.

[Goldielocks]

I would only pay more if you have thoroughly researched that product.  I'll give you an example.  I used to buy the "free range" "cage free" eggs, then I moved from the suburbs to a rural area and learned through the state's Ag department (I'm in the U.S.) all about raising chickens, and am on year 3 of that.  Ok, what have I learned?  Cage free, free range, and even "vegetarian raised", are not what you think.  Those chickens are not out in an open field somewhwere.  They are in a barn stall that gives each chicken 3 square feet of space.  They CAN live that way, but just because they aren't in stacked cages does not mean they aren't still overly confined.  Also, there is no such thing as a vegetarian chicken.  That chicken would die, and even if you tried feeding them a vegetarian diet, they eat every bug, spider and worm they can reach.  Even in confinement, there are bugs.

So that was a good lesson on eggs, at least.  Organic is another word that has little meaning now, and having gotten to know farmers who happen to currently produce products that can be sold as "organic"... I'm personally not a fan.  They have to use so many pesticides and fertilizers, well, I finally realized why every time I ate any organic vegetable I'd end up with the, um, well, I was in the bathroom the rest of that day. 

This is only an example of things I have learned about, and I won't pay extra for any of those.  If you have a farmers' market nearby, or whatever that might be in your area, and you can buy eggs from someone who truly does have their chickens out in a field like I do, buy those.  Fresh eggs can't be beat.  Chickens get the sunshine, exercise, and a better diet.

I gave up on "ethical" spending, even after all the political nonsense being slung around in my country.  Whomever has the best product for my standards will get my money.  I just bought dishes made in the USA and not in China.  They were not overly expensive, and I know their glaze doesn't have led in it.  Pick and choose, my friend.  Don't go bankrupt over labels.

A farmer that is Certified Organic vs. *winkwink "organic" wouldn't be using synthetic pesticides or fertilizers. However, as I understand it, they might be using heavier amounts of manure as fertilzer/soil conditioner which *could* contain E. coli- hence your unfortunate digestive experiences.

Not true, I'm sorry.  Logic doesn't always work with this stuff, and even the word "organic" does not mean what it used to.

There are highy processed "organic" fertilizers that are not the manure/soil conditioners you (Guru) are likely thinking of.

I personally do like LESS fertilizers / pesticides.   I choose local produce when possible because my local laws are better than the laws in some other countries.   I also really, really like brussell sprouts without bugs in them... but o I choose to eat my own almost-organic (not sprayed) apples with worms (cut them out).

To OP -- my take is to understand exactly what the environmental impacts are, take a trip to see the production, if I can...   I also agree with the "re-use / recycle / buy less" thought.

[Mellabella]

Wow so much great info I feel a bit overwhelmed. The thing I like though is less waste, less consumption over all & buying second hand. At least that part is simple! I know I can’t be perfect (without going crazy at least)  so I’m going to stick with that & try not to stress too much!