The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: bertrandhustle on July 28, 2016, 02:04:19 PM
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I am going to propose to my girlfriend at the end of this year. She is smarter and better looking than me so this part is a huge no brainer ;) Buuuut, her dream ring costs $4700 at Costco (and includes a wedding band). Her parents have also said they will pay for the wedding, within reason. After taking our circumstances (below) into account, is $4700 as absurdly expensive as my gut is telling me it is? Or is it stupid to get something cheaper and save ~$2k in the short run but have her not be as thrilled with it (as my parents insist)?
Oh, and I've already suggested Moissanite etc., to no avail. FWIW, she has actually been pretty cool and low key about this whole deal, it is mostly just me wanting to get her what I know she wants but being stressed about the price.
About us:
We're both 24. I'm going into my second year of law school. Have $100k in retirement accounts, $9k in cash, and will graduate with only ~$50,000 in debt. I maxed out my Roth IRA for 2016. Next summer I will make ~$40k at my internship, and should graduate with a job that starts at $180,000 excluding a small bonus. I will pay my debt off in well under a year.
She has a job that currently pays $95k (excluding fairly substantial stock options, which we don't factor into net-worth calculations since they are only on paper) with big potential for growth. Her skills are in high demand and her salary could easily double within the next two years. She is frugal, and has around $50k in retirement accounts, and <$10k in very low interest student debt.
Given all of this, would I be doing us a big disservice by buying the $5k ring set? Or is it short sighted to get her something she likes less to save around $2,500, which in the scheme of things is a drop in the bucket?
I realize there are no "right" answers to these questions, but I'm interested to hear your opinions.
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Short answer IMO, yes.
The reason your GF wants that diamond ring is due to marketing, nothing else. Do you know where the wedding ring tradition came from? Is it even a tradition? We are conditioned from birth by advertisers that it is necessary to have this shiny rock on your finger in order to show/feel love. Really it is despicable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU
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her dream ring costs $4700 at Costco
If she's specifically asked for this particular ring, then based on what you describe, I would say, yes go for it if it makes her happy.
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Long term, $5K isn't a huge deal. Short term, it might be tight for you, but I'm with the others - if this is what she really wants, go for it. I spent about this much on my wife's rings, but I was already in an $80K / year salary situation when I did that. Also not on MMM at that point in my life - given that my wife was thrilled that I had some design input on the ring more so than at the size of the rock, I think I could have spent quite a bit less than I did. No regrets, of course.
Also - are you my cousin? going into 2nd year of law school, great long-term girlfriend matches the story so far.
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Well, Up to you. I, for one, never bought a wedding ring or any kind of ring. My wife and I we don't wear any jewelry on a daily basis. My wife does on a rare occasion. Our mindset is this: "I don't need an effing wedding ring to prove that I am married" and "Wedding ring does not a marriage make" and "Have the wedding ring, so what?"
But again that's just us. But I do feel that, in the long term, having a good relationship with the spouse is very important and if this makes it better, then why not? But again, I'd also say do you really want that kind of spouse? I know that you said she's cool either way. What I am trying to say is, don't get emotional. Every penny that you save now makes you happier long term. Also FYI, if it's a diamond ring, it has no resale value.
Been very happily married for 5.5 years with a daughter and without any expensive jewelry. The best 2 people I could ask to be in my life.
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Please post link of said ring. :)
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$4700 is a lot. But it's worth it if it really makes her happy. I would talk to her about it though. If you can't have a frank discussion on how much things cost now, getting legally bound to her isn't going to make it better.
Wait, wait. I just saw that you have talked about it. She still wants it. Go for it. You (hopefully) only get married once. Don't forget about lab grown diamonds (like, real diamonds, but no children had to mine them) or recycled diamonds.
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Please post link of said ring. :)
http://www.costco.com/Round-Brilliant-1.18-ctw-VS2-Clarity%2c-I-Color-Diamond-Platinum-Ring.product.11650596.html (http://www.costco.com/Round-Brilliant-1.18-ctw-VS2-Clarity%2c-I-Color-Diamond-Platinum-Ring.product.11650596.html)
In store it comes with a band that apparently adds ~$700 to the $3999 price tag above
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Please post link of said ring. :)
http://www.costco.com/Round-Brilliant-1.18-ctw-VS2-Clarity%2c-I-Color-Diamond-Platinum-Ring.product.11650596.html (http://www.costco.com/Round-Brilliant-1.18-ctw-VS2-Clarity%2c-I-Color-Diamond-Platinum-Ring.product.11650596.html)
In store it comes with a band that apparently adds ~$700 to the $3999 price tag above
It seems like she is being pretty reasonable in getting a ring from Costco. Many women would scoff at the idea. Here's a similar ring from a local jewelry store.
http://www.daysjewelers.com/all-engagement-and-wedding/diamond-engagement-rings/diamond-halo-ring-in-14kt-white-gold-1-3-8ct-tw-40756
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Well, Up to you. I, for one, never bought a wedding ring or any kind of ring. My wife and I we don't wear any jewelry on a daily basis. My wife does on a rare occasion. Our mindset is this: "I don't need an effing wedding ring to prove that I am married" and "Wedding ring does not a marriage make" and "Have the wedding ring, so what?"
But again that's just us. But I do feel that, in the long term, having a good relationship with the spouse is very important and if this makes it better, then why not? But again, I'd also say do you really want that kind of spouse? I know that you said she's cool either way. What I am trying to say is, don't get emotional. Every penny that you save now makes you happier long term. Also FYI, if it's a diamond ring, it has no resale value.
Been very happily married for 5.5 years with a daughter and without any expensive jewelry. The best 2 people I could ask to be in my life.
I am also not a jewelry person. DH got me a sapphire engagement ring (which I guess I wore maybe 50% of the time we were engaged?). I got a simple white gold band for my wedding ring on amazon for like $60. I didn't wear it at all during our first year of marriage other than to social events. Then some creepy dude who knew I was married and had met my husband started hitting on me. He told me I must not take my marriage very seriously since I don't wear my ring. Let me tell you, since that day I've worn my wedding band to keep the creeps away.
To answer OP's question: it is up to you. In my personal opinion $4700 is too much to spend, but if that's what she has her heart set on maybe you give into it. I worry that it might indicate future materialism, but maybe you are okay with that. Did you already get a big law offer? It seems that big law hiring is getting pushed earlier and earlier :-P Maybe she'll feel more comfortable at the big law welcome dinner type events with you with a fancy ring. I know that there is a lot of "status" attributed to rings especially in Manhattan.
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Short answer IMO, yes.
The reason your GF wants that diamond ring is due to marketing, nothing else. Do you know where the wedding ring tradition came from? Is it even a tradition? We are conditioned from birth by advertisers that it is necessary to have this shiny rock on your finger in order to show/feel love. Really it is despicable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU
Engagement (betrothal) and wedding rings have been around for hundreds of years, but it's only been recently that the DeBeers campaign took over.
If it makes her happy and won't put you into debt, go for it.
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Because people always end up suggesting privileged things like "if it makes you happy, do it :) "
https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/conflict-diamonds/
IMO the only way to put a permanent end to this is for peole to chooose not to think of these useless trinkets as valuable.
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$4700 is a lot. But it's worth it if it really makes her happy.
Isn't the core theme of this website about questioning what makes us happy and trying to redefine our desire to match with what actually makes us happy? I think everyone here would agree that a thing cannot make you happy. If we head down that road then we might next be justifying a Bentley because it will bring happiness, or any other thing. To me this blog is about questioning the status quo, and engagement rings definitely fit in here, especially when you consider that the whole idea of them was invented for profit.
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We spent $500 total for our rings. My husband wears his. I don't wear mine. When we go out together, I look like his mistress.
Obviously I'm a woman who doesn't give two shits about jewelry. I think it's totally stupid. I don't understand the appeal.
Having said that, your financials and salaries are awesome for 24 year olds. Color me jealous.
Buy the ring. In the scheme of things, it's a drop in the bucket for you, as long as it's not a trend in your marriage. In other words, don't start buying her more expensive jewelry moving forward.
I do think rings on women are a status thing. I don't live anywhere close to Manhattan and all the other moms in my modest suburb wear huge-ass (at least to me) rocks. I don't get it. I much prefer to buck the trend, but if it's important to her? Eh, it's not a deal breaker. Making it into a big deal and buying the cheaper ring on principle would be the stupid move IMO.
Edited to add: I think the ring itself is beautiful.
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I am also not a jewelry person. DH got me a sapphire engagement ring (which I guess I wore maybe 50% of the time we were engaged?). I got a simple white gold band for my wedding ring on amazon for like $60. I didn't wear it at all during our first year of marriage other than to social events. Then some creepy dude who knew I was married and had met my husband started hitting on me. He told me I must not take my marriage very seriously since I don't wear my ring. Let me tell you, since that day I've worn my wedding band to keep the creeps away.
Been in an argument recently with a female friend of mine along the similar lines. She insists she has to wear a wedding ring/band whatever that is to "tell" people that she is married. My point is, OK. So a creep tries to hit on you. Do you give in? No, right? Then what's the problem. Discuss the issue with your spouse and everything's cool. As long as you are not reciprocating, what's wrong? Again, this is just marketing BS that got ingrained so deep in the current society. A creep is a creep is a creep. They'll hit on you even if you are married. The wedding band is just a smoke screen.
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Because people always end up suggesting privileged things like "if it makes you happy, do it :) "
https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/conflict-diamonds/
IMO the only way to put a permanent end to this is for peole to chooose not to think of these useless trinkets as valuable.
To be fair, Costco at least claims to us the UN Kimberley process to obtain conflict free diamonds. Anyone out there know if this actually means anything? Part of my hesitancy has been the ethical implications of a diamond ring too, so thanks for mentioning this.
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That honestly looks incredibly uncomfortable if they put the diamonds around the ring like it looks in the pic. It's going to be always rubbing on the pad of her hand when she goes to grip, plus it's going to mar things up all the time and possibly have diamonds fall out of it from constantly bumping things.
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Better, buy some gold jewelry. At least there are people who go ape shit about it so you can sell it for cash if you ever end up in a bad situation. With that kind of money you can easily get more than 2 ounces of 24K gold. Don't buy the 16ct, shit that they sell in stores. Nothing less than 22K. It is still jewelry but with a slight upside compared to carbon.
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That honestly looks incredibly uncomfortable if they put the diamonds around the ring like it looks in the pic. It's going to be always rubbing on the pad of her hand when she goes to grip, plus it's going to mar things up all the time and possibly have diamonds fall out of it from constantly bumping things.
Haha, are you me? I made all of these points to her, but she seems to think it will be comfortable.
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I am also not a jewelry person. DH got me a sapphire engagement ring (which I guess I wore maybe 50% of the time we were engaged?). I got a simple white gold band for my wedding ring on amazon for like $60. I didn't wear it at all during our first year of marriage other than to social events. Then some creepy dude who knew I was married and had met my husband started hitting on me. He told me I must not take my marriage very seriously since I don't wear my ring. Let me tell you, since that day I've worn my wedding band to keep the creeps away.
Been in an argument recently with a female friend of mine along the similar lines. She insists she has to wear a wedding ring/band whatever that is to "tell" people that she is married. My point is, OK. So a creep tries to hit on you. Do you give in? No, right? Then what's the problem. Discuss the issue with your spouse and everything's cool. As long as you are not reciprocating, what's wrong? Again, this is just marketing BS that got ingrained so deep in the current society. A creep is a creep is a creep. They'll hit on you even if you are married. The wedding band is just a smoke screen.
Right but I'd rather deal with the minimum amount of creepiness. When I wear my ring and a guy hits on me, he outs himself immediately as a creeper. FWIW my husband is not at all the jealous type and he didn't insist that I wear my ring, I came to that decision on my own.
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Background: My husband and I were together for 5 years before he proposed. The engagement lasted 2 years because I have commitment issues and we wanted to save money to pay for it ourselves. We have now been married for 5 years.
When he proposed he did it with 2 rings. One was an old family diamond that he had put into a new setting (he knew I would like the recycle/reuse part). It was a solitaire, typical engagement ring, that he knew I did not want. I am a simple band with maybe a few chip diamonds in it kind of girl. The other ring was a ring that I saw advertised and decided it was exactly what I wanted (infinity band ring). We skipped the wedding band and basically just considered the infinity band the wedding band.
On our honeymoon he pulls out a box with a 3rd ring, it was/is a simple band with small chip diamonds in it. When I asked why he bought another ring, he told me that he had bought this 3rd ring 1st and probably a couple years before he proposed but he wasn't sure if I would like it. Then his parents gave him the solitaire and he got a new setting for it trying to make it as low profile as possible. He still hadn't popped the question when I saw the advertisement for the infinity band so when I said I loved that ring he decided that he had to buy that ring before he could propose. Obviously, I am the more budget friendly in our relationship.
All that to say, out of the 3 rings my favorite is the one that he picked out himself based on what he thought I would like. Added bonus it was probably the cheapest too (I still struggle with how much he spent total when the 1st one was perfect). The solitaire has since been turned into a necklace that I wear everyday. The infinity band I like (and wear with the other band that he picked out) but it has a lot less sentimental value to me because he just followed my "order" and didn't put his own energy/personality into it.
She will not say no based on the ring (and if she does I would be concerned about the marriage), buy a ring that you think will fit her personality but shows that you know/listen to what she likes. If she does hate it, find something later (when you have more income) that she loves.
After seeing the link... have you looked at infinity bands rings or does she like the big diamond?
http://www.bluenile.com/luna-diamond-eternity-ring-platinum_43664?gclid=Cj0KEQjw2ua8BRDeusOkl5qth4QBEiQA8BpQcPhYcuMJgZf7yAgYNI0JAFTeRlC5sDYM_Ls5Squc7mQaAox38P8HAQ&click_id=337537758
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Mustachian brag. Shortly after announcing our engagement (20 years ago now) my now wife and I visited my Mum, who asked what we were doing about a ring. It was not something we had thought about.
She told us to have a look in the spare key jug, as she thought there were some old rings in there that my niece - 4 at the time - liked to play with. Just to oblige her, my Mrs took a look and found amongst the old keys, curtain rings, buttons and plastic rings an old ring covered in stoor (Scottish word for dust & dirt).
It turned out to be an antique platinum and diamond engagement ring. Total cost at the time to be re-sized and cleaned - £15 (c$20).
NB My platinum wedding ring £200, lost about 3 months after the wedding. The cheaper replacement slipped off my finger whilst swimming in Nice - cold fingers shrink apparently. Karma, perhaps?
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Because people always end up suggesting privileged things like "if it makes you happy, do it :) "
https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/conflict-diamonds/
IMO the only way to put a permanent end to this is for peole to chooose not to think of these useless trinkets as valuable.
To be fair, Costco at least claims to us the UN Kimberley process to obtain conflict free diamonds. Anyone out there know if this actually means anything? Part of my hesitancy has been the ethical implications of a diamond ring too, so thanks for mentioning this.
If you want to minimize the ethical implications have you thought about buy a not new ring/diamond? You could put it in a new setting if you/she wants.
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super personal decision. its the only expensive piece of jewelry i bought my wife and probably ever will buy it was before MMM it was around 5600 if i remember correctly. i personally wouldnt buy it from costco but find someone in the area who can make it for a similar price
Si2 and H color are all the farther you need to go in diamond status CUT is really the most important for the shimmer. then it just comes down to size. for the overall price. i mean its a one time expense should last 50+ years you're looking at an avg cost of 100 bucks a year or so.
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I ended up going for an Amora Gem when I was in your situation, about $800 for a .83 carrot Amora gem, more fire and brilliance than diamonds. Had David Klass Jewelers put it on a Platinum Setting with 2 blue side diamonds, total cost just over $2,000.
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So I'm not one to talk because my wedding ring set cost about that much and I love sparkly objects. It looks very different from the one you posted, however Mr. D actually wanted to purchase one that cost three times as much as what we actually got. We were also 100% debt free when the ring was purchased.
On one hand, yes your fiance should be happy with the ring she will be wearing, however you both need to be happy with the cost.
It sounds like right now you are currently earning $40k/year with $50k in debt. Based on your current salary, buying this ring will be almost 13% of your annual income. Yes next year you may get a 6 figure salary, however that is next year. Right now you are talking about buying a ring and justifying it by saying "well next year I'll be able to afford it." That is not a good way to justify a purchase.
You have a great amount in your retirement account, but it would take more than half of your savings. I don't think this ring is a smart purchase for you right now.
Also you say your fiance is frugal however she is a high income erarner with very little in savings and wants you to spend money you don't have on a ring. That doesn't sound frugal to me.
ETA: Why not wait until next year to propose with the ring she wants? You will be able to afford it on a 6 figure salary.
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$4700 is a lot. But it's worth it if it really makes her happy.
Isn't the core theme of this website about questioning what makes us happy and trying to redefine our desire to match with what actually makes us happy? I think everyone here would agree that a thing cannot make you happy. If we head down that road then we might next be justifying a Bentley because it will bring happiness, or any other thing. To me this blog is about questioning the status quo, and engagement rings definitely fit in here, especially when you consider that the whole idea of them was invented for profit.
I won't argue with that. My wife's wedding band and mine together were under $500. But comparing a $4700 engagement ring and wedding band to a Bentley is hyperbole. MMM and his wife, and many of the people here and 100% into the frugal lifestyle. Our intrepid OP has tried to talk his beloved out of a ridiculously expensive ring. She still wants it. It's his decision, but this isn't the sort of thing to dick around with. We can't immediately unbrainwash our spouses.
$4700 invested well buys several days a year of freedom. Saving $2000 buys a day or two of freedom down the road, and possibly a lot of heartache. This is why a Bentley is vastly different. For the price of a decent one, you're half-way to FIRE. For the price of the ring his wife to be really wants, its a day or two you can easily make up. Perspective, especially when they're looking at pulling down almost $300k a year.
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I'm guessing you will get a number of "why buy a ring?" responses here, but here are my two cents which may not line up with the majority view.
In your case, go with something less expensive ONLY IF you have a good non-monetary reason for doing so. I'll use my own experience as an example of what I mean: I proposed to my now wife after undergrad when I had little money. I got her a diamond that is very clear and very precisely cut, but it is quite small and not as colorless as diamond aficionados would desire. Put it in a simple-but-elegant setting and I was out the door for less than $2,000. The cut and clarity mean the diamond sparkles more than most any other engagement ring I've seen. I view it as being symbolic of the way we choose to live our lives: it is understated but, if you examine it closely, it is very high quality.
If you can get something less expensive, that is very meaningful, fits your girlfriend's style, and you are reasonably confident she will like it when you sell her on the reason you didn't get her the dream ring, then do it. The important thing is that she will feel that it is an expression of how you value her and that you had a good reason for not getting the dream ring. But if she is dead set on that ring and you aren't sure you can sell her on something else, then just get her the ring. While it's a bit expensive now, it is not completely out of the realm of reason given your joint income potential (assuming what you said is accurate and not overly optimistic).
What you absolutely do NOT want to do is to buy her something cheaper, then, when (not "if"... when) she asks why you didn't get her the one she obviously wanted, only be able to come up with an explanation along the lines of, "it was cheaper but I thought you'd still like it." THAT would be a bad move and you would risk the wrath of a woman scorned. Don't do that.
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That seems like an awful lot to spend on something that won't hold its value at all. But it's really your choice ultimately; it looks like you can afford it. However, what snags me is the fact that you know you're going to be $50,000 in debt very soon. I wonder if the "go ahead and do it" responses would be the same if you already had that $50,000 in debt. And it might be worth unpacking why a diamond ring like that would make her happy (status? spending=happiness? incorrectly considers it an investment?). We spent just under $2k on our wedding rings, so I can't really say "don't spend money on frivolous jewelry!!!" But we did wait two weeks to make the purchase (and would have waited longer, but we didn't have much time before the wedding due to a snafu with another jeweler).
Have you thought about estate jewelry (if that doesn't creep you out)? Supposedly you can get some really nice looking stuff for a fraction of the price of new, and they don't contribute to the blood diamond issue.
ETA: I just saw the suggestion for a custom ring. I'd second that, especially if you can source stones and get them re-set. We originally wanted to have my mom's diamonds re-set in a custom band, but the quote we got for just one ring was $4500--way too rich for our budget, but right in line with yours and much more personal than just grabbing something off a Costco shelf. If you do go this route, make sure you have lots and lots of lead time before your date.
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Why can't you split the cost of the ring - you spend what you want and she tops up the difference. I don't have an engagement ring but for my wedding band my husband thought $500 was enough to spend, the band I wanted was $1000 (it has diamonds inlaid in the band), so we each paid $500 and I got what I wanted and my husband spent what he wanted. win, win!
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Why can't you split the cost of the ring - you spend what you want and she tops up the difference. I don't have an engagement ring but for my wedding band my husband thought $500 was enough to spend, the band I wanted was $1000 (it has diamonds inlaid in the band), so we each paid $500 and I got what I wanted and my husband spent what he wanted. win, win!
So jealous. I suggested this approach and she actually said she would prefer to get a a less expensive ring instead of that set-up. Maybe that's the answer to my initial question actually. She doesn't value it enough to cover the difference, and she isn't demanding that specific ring - it's just clear to me that she would be delighted with it.
Looks like I need to do some more searching on my own and see if I can find something that would add sentimental value without coming across as a price thing, as others have suggested.
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From my view, yes, that is too much money. My wedding set cost $500 and was still more than I might spend these days. While I love the look of my set, I now realize that a flat band with an embedded stone would work so much better for carrying kids around, wearing gloves, etc.
The wedding band/engagement ring/wedding set is just a symbol.
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You girlfriend makes 95K/year? I am less concerned about the price of the ring (to each their own, since I personally don't like diamonds and think everyone's diamond wedding set looks cheesy and the same) than she wants you to buy a ring for her that you clearly can't afford, even 2K is unaffordable to a second year law student.
Why isn't she willing to contribute to the cost? We were broke students when we got engaged with our finances basically merged by then and I picked out a ring that was affordable to our household (i.e. <$100). I was happy to be getting married, the ring was practically the last thing of concern. I understand that people have this grand, longtime idea of what engagement rings "should" be, but it's refreshing to shake up this mindset.
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Get her the ring that she wants. Its important to her and you should respect that; especially since the cost is a drop in the bucket relative to what is going to be your household income.
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Get her the ring that she wants. Its important to her and you should respect that; especially since the cost is a drop in the bucket relative to what is going to be your household income.
What's that old saying about not counting your chickens....
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Why can't you split the cost of the ring - you spend what you want and she tops up the difference. I don't have an engagement ring but for my wedding band my husband thought $500 was enough to spend, the band I wanted was $1000 (it has diamonds inlaid in the band), so we each paid $500 and I got what I wanted and my husband spent what he wanted. win, win!
So jealous. I suggested this approach and she actually said she would prefer to get a a less expensive ring instead of that set-up. Maybe that's the answer to my initial question actually. She doesn't value it enough to cover the difference, and she isn't demanding that specific ring - it's just clear to me that she would be delighted with it.
Looks like I need to do some more searching on my own and see if I can find something that would add sentimental value without coming across as a price thing, as others have suggested.
Yes, this answers your question. Try to figure out why she likes that particular ring, then go out and find something that fits her style, has greater sentimental value, and happens to have a lower price tag. Then emphasize the sentimental reasons you made the choice you made. If she sees that that you put forth genuine thought and effort, she will probably appreciate it even if it isn't exactly what she would have chosen for herself.
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$4700 is a lot. But it's worth it if it really makes her happy.
Isn't the core theme of this website about questioning what makes us happy and trying to redefine our desire to match with what actually makes us happy? I think everyone here would agree that a thing cannot make you happy. If we head down that road then we might next be justifying a Bentley because it will bring happiness, or any other thing. To me this blog is about questioning the status quo, and engagement rings definitely fit in here, especially when you consider that the whole idea of them was invented for profit.
I like this.
As far as the rings, I personally would not ask or want any piece of jewelry that cost that much.
It sounds like your wife to be does though so you are marrying her go with your instinct.
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I think it's a lot - I don't like diamonds for ethical reason, and I think you'll be just as married with a plain band.
But there are a lot of emotional issues in play here, and I don't think, if you are married for 50 years, that it's all that extravagant.
OTOH, dh and I bought plain wedding bands at a big box store in 1977, for $100 each, and it turns out that they are quite heavy and would be hard to replace.
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Get her the ring that she wants. Its important to her and you should respect that; especially since the cost is a drop in the bucket relative to what is going to be your household income.
What's that old saying about not counting your chickens....
OP's would-be-wife is already making nearly $100K, and presumably will continue to do so after they get married. I'm making an assumption about how they will handle their finances once married, but at that salary level $5K for wedding rings is very doable if she's decided that the expense is important to her.
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Get her the ring that she wants. Its important to her and you should respect that;
I strongly object to this line of reasoning. It reads like a guide on how to spoil a child.
OP, you should take all these go-for-it responses with a grain of salt. I suspect they are mainly coming from those who did expensive rings themselves, and their subconscious forces them to believe it was the right decision. The brain goes to great lengths to avoid regrets. In light of many sensible arguments, as well as anecdotes from those who got cheap rings and were perfectly happy with them, it has to squirm about and rationalize, so that they don't have to come to terms with the following facts: 1) the $ value that they ascribe to rings was invented for them by advertisers, and 2) it contributes to oppression.
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Get her the ring that she wants. Its important to her and you should respect that;
I strongly object to this line of reasoning. It reads like a guide on how to spoil a child.
OP, you should take all these go-for-it responses with a grain of salt. I suspect they are mainly coming from those who did expensive rings themselves, and their subconscious forces them to believe it was the right decision. The brain goes to great lengths to avoid regrets. In light of many sensible arguments, as well as anecdotes from those who got cheap rings and were perfectly happy with them, it has to squirm about and rationalize, so that they don't have to come to terms with the following facts: 1) the $ value that they ascribe to rings was invented for them by advertisers, and 2) it contributes to oppression.
I told him to "go for it" and my husband's ring was $300 and my ring was $200. No subconscious justification going on there. I just think their income, current and future, is such that 4K is not that big of deal if it's something that's important to her.
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American marketing is the most powerful force in the universe. Find someone who would be happy with $4700 worth of Vanguard mutual funds. Thats just me. For you, happy wife, happy life. Good luck.
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American marketing is the most powerful force in the universe. Find someone who would be happy with $4700 worth of Vanguard mutual funds. Thats just me. For you, happy wife, happy life. Good luck.
*Twitch* but why couldn't you round it out to an even $5500?
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American marketing is the most powerful force in the universe. Find someone who would be happy with $4700 worth of Vanguard mutual funds. Thats just me. For you, happy wife, happy life. Good luck.
I always thought it was strong nuclear force, dang
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Get her the ring she wants. Together you guys will be making a lot of $. This is an important purchase and she will be looking at and enjoying it for years to come. If you guys were low earners then that would be a different story. I think it would be sad for her to be disappointed and she will be even if she hides it from you.
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her dream ring costs $4700 at Costco
If she's specifically asked for this particular ring, then based on what you describe, I would say, yes go for it if it makes her happy.
+1
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For the naysayers, think of it this way. People drop a few grand on a short vacation all the damned time. Two plane tickets: $800 minimum. Five nights in a hotel: $500 minimum (in any major location). Food: Let's say $50 a day, which is pretty cheap, so $250. Throw in another few hundred for incidentals, and you've got a cheap, arguably Mustachian vacation for two at 2K. Granted, I don't spend that much on a vacation very often, but I'm one cheap daughter of a cheap bitch :). Most "normal" people drop that and more on a vacation, sometimes multiple times a year.
I just don't see a one-time extravagant purchase of a ring to be that big of deal for dual income earners who make a decent income. For better or for worse (I would lean towards the worse), our culture sees this as a symbol of something important. The to-be wife cares about it. I don't think that makes her a terrible person. If she doesn't expect to continue to get expensive jewelry throughout their marriage, I just can't find the outrage, even if it's a choice I don't understand or relate to.
Hell, I bought a $40 silver ring and tried to wear that as a wedding ring and failed. I just hate jewelry. My husband proposed with some diamond earrings, since I had already told him I didn't want an engagement ring. I think I wore them twice. I must just be way less hot than sis upthread, because I've never had a problem with men hitting on me without a ring. Having three young kids in tow most of the time might have something to do with it :).
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I just don't see a one-time extravagant purchase of a ring to be that big of deal for dual income earners who make a decent income.
The problem is they are not a dual income couple. She has made it clear she will not contribute towards the ring. He is still in school and his 6 figure salary is 1-2 years away from becoming a reality.
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OP, are you balking at the price because you feel the outlay would place you in an uncomfortable situation wrt savings and debt? Or, is the squirming just from having to pay that much for a single item? Do you feel like you'll have to surrender your MMM card?
The first situation merits a discussion with your wife, where you lay out your concerns and worries. If she's a reasonable adult who loves you, she will respond with a solution. The second situation should also trigger a conversation about your expectations regarding money, and how that will intersect her sphere.
If you've already had conversation(s), and she still wants the ring without compromises or regards towards your thoughts, you've found yourself in a tough situation. One I'm not sure the internet can solve for you.
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The biggest American hobby is throwing money at whatever marketers say is important. A shiny rock is still a rock. But for you, again, happy wife, happy life. She can show her friends how much you love her by the size of the rock. Keep it clean and shiny. Good luck.
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I just don't see a one-time extravagant purchase of a ring to be that big of deal for dual income earners who make a decent income.
The problem is they are not a dual income couple. She has made it clear she will not contribute towards the ring. He is still in school and his 6 figure salary is 1-2 years away from becoming a reality.
I see your point. I do think it a little strange that she won't kick in some of her money, since she is currently the higher earner. I was just looking at it long term...you know, when they're married and her money is his and vice versa.
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I think it is strange how a lot of people are encouraging this guy to go ahead any buy it, when if it was anything other than an engagement ring people would be facepunching him.
It comes down to:
This guy wants to buy something that is 52% of his current cash savings. He currently has more debt than his non-steady income. He MIGHT make more in a couple of years time, but right now his student loans are more than he earns. This item he buys will depreciate in value the moment he pays for it. It is a bad financial move.
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The first situation merits a discussion with your wife, where you lay out your concerns and worries. If she's a reasonable adult who loves you, she will respond with a solution. The second situation should also trigger a conversation about your expectations regarding money, and how that will intersect her sphere.
I agree with this OP - time for you to have another conversation with your gf.
From my, entirely subjective, point of view - both your stances seem reasonable. You aren't earning an income currently, as you're a full time student - buying a 5k ring seems crazy in that situation. She, on the other hand, is almost on 100K a year and will likely earn more. Likewise, you'll also be high earning in the future. so, a 5K costco ring is an entirely reasonable wish.
One solution that acknowledges both positions is to push back the engagement until you're at least earning your internship money, but ideally, when you've landed that 180K job. Yes, that means you're waiting a while but my preference would be to do things like marriage, kids, home buying when both in full time employment.
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The first situation merits a discussion with your wife, where you lay out your concerns and worries. If she's a reasonable adult who loves you, she will respond with a solution. The second situation should also trigger a conversation about your expectations regarding money, and how that will intersect her sphere.
I agree with this OP - time for you to have another conversation with your gf.
From my, entirely subjective, point of view - both your stances seem reasonable. You aren't earning an income currently, as you're a full time student - buying a 5k ring seems crazy in that situation. She, on the other hand, is almost on 100K a year and will likely earn more. Likewise, you'll also be high earning in the future. so, a 5K costco ring is an entirely reasonable wish.
One solution that acknowledges both positions is to push back the engagement until you're at least earning your internship money, but ideally, when you've landed that 180K job. Yes, that means you're waiting a while but my preference would be to do things like marriage, kids, home buying when both in full time employment.
I like the waiting idea. We met and fell in love in high school (2000), but we waited until school was done and stable jobs were obtained--we were married in 2014. Maybe wait a bit (but maybe not 14 years!) and see if the ring is still important--if it isn't great, now you know. If it is, great, now you know.
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My 2 cents FWIW - 15 years ago when DH and I were discussing matrimony, I too got googoo eyed over sparkly rocks of smashed carbon and yearned for something flashy that would make my hand shimmer like a thousand baby angels sat upon my finger. We were just two kids trying to make a go of adulthood and didn't have a pot to piss in, much less thousands of dollars for an engagement ring. So, unbeknownst to me, DH met with a local jeweler and the two of them designed a ring for me. The actual diamond size is only 1/3 of a carat (smaller than 20 year old me thought I deserved) but it's a brilliant white (no one likes yellowed diamonds!) and the band is simple, and architecturally elegant - and designed by my DH. He explained how he wanted me to have a ring like no one else had, completely custom, that reflected how he envisioned our love - simple, pure, and unadulterated - one of a kind... I bawled like a baby when he gave it to me, and I can't fathom the hours that went into the craftsmanship from the jeweler. Unrelated plus side, my girl friends were envious because their rings were "off the rack" and mine had a romantic back story. Total cost? $1000, which he paid cash. It's the only piece of jewelry I wear, and sometimes when I'm really pissed off at him (happens sometimes when you've been together this long....), the light catches the ring just right and it is like a thousand baby angels gleaming off my finger when I flip him the bird.
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I can recommend Blue Nile as a decent place to get jewelry from. We got our wedding bands from there. For her engagement ring I spent a fair bit more and had it made by a local jeweler. It was/is lovely, but pretty expensive.
A few options - go for a different stone? Consider something 'vintage' from a antique shop etc if that is her style? Is there a family heirloom you can claim?
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My 2 cents FWIW - 15 years ago when DH and I were discussing matrimony, I too got googoo eyed over sparkly rocks of smashed carbon and yearned for something flashy that would make my hand shimmer like a thousand baby angels sat upon my finger. We were just two kids trying to make a go of adulthood and didn't have a pot to piss in, much less thousands of dollars for an engagement ring. So, unbeknownst to me, DH met with a local jeweler and the two of them designed a ring for me. The actual diamond size is only 1/3 of a carat (smaller than 20 year old me thought I deserved) but it's a brilliant white (no one likes yellowed diamonds!) and the band is simple, and architecturally elegant - and designed by my DH. He explained how he wanted me to have a ring like no one else had, completely custom, that reflected how he envisioned our love - simple, pure, and unadulterated - one of a kind... I bawled like a baby when he gave it to me, and I can't fathom the hours that went into the craftsmanship from the jeweler. Unrelated plus side, my girl friends were envious because their rings were "off the rack" and mine had a romantic back story. Total cost? $1000, which he paid cash. It's the only piece of jewelry I wear, and sometimes when I'm really pissed off at him (happens sometimes when you've been together this long....), the light catches the ring just right and it is like a thousand baby angels gleaming off my finger when I flip him the bird.
+100000
Love this so much--especially the punchline.
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Is this is what she wants, and she's perfect in every other way, then get her the ring.
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Why can't it ever be happy husband happy life??????
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Personally I would get the ring she likes for 5k.
She will be happy with it.
She will also think about you when she looks at it.
My savings rate is about 55% right now, and I wouldn't skimp on that.
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When you're an old Geezer like I am now...49, believe me, you won't care one bit about the trinkets you bought and you will think back on all the good things that money could have bought. 5K over 20-30 years, invested well, allowing time to live and love life...that is what this is all about. And when you get to this stage, you reflect on things like, was I good to people, did I step up with the best character, did I love and lead enough...you , seldom remember the trinkets - only how much they really don't matter and look back in amazement at how hard you worked for them and how really meaningless all those material things are in the end. It's about the people in your life, the time you have to spend with them, learning, teaching, enjoying. Those things are very hard work and provide limitless value that can never be lost. Invest the 5K - this week for example, I would have put it into FB - I already have a ton in that, lucky me :).
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It's the only piece of jewelry I wear, and sometimes when I'm really pissed off at him (happens sometimes when you've been together this long....), the light catches the ring just right and it is like a thousand baby angels gleaming off my finger when I flip him the bird.
I love it!
OP at the end of the day you can collect internet opinions all you want but only you know her and whether this strong preference for an expensive bauble paid for entirely by you is a one off thing or indicative of other financial issues.
Personally I skipped the engagement ring and we got married with $20 rings from Amazon so I'm not one to understand the joy of expensive jewelry but...
1. Skipping an engagement ring did lead to a lot of social pressure - mainly on my now husband. I quite happily announced "I'm cheap, I said I didn't want one" and everyone who knows me found that easy to believe. I think he worried more that people thought it was him being cheap when they asked and found we didn't get one.
2. Weddings are weird and do weird things to people. I can completely understand why she doesn't want to chip in to pay for her own engagement ring. I'm not saying it makes sense but I could see it really not being easy to tell people that your husband didn't value you enough to pay for the ring you really wanted and so you paid for half yourself. Of course that's not what you would say... but it's how it would come across to a lot of people.
I'd say talk, talk and talk some more about it with your fiancee. The money isn't really the main issue, it's how she's going to feel about this. If that particular ring is really what she has her heart set on and you want to marry her then, since you can actually afford it, then I think you should. But I'd be more curious to know what it is exactly that is driving her desire for a Costco ring of all things.
At the end of the day $5000 is nothing compared to the cost of marrying the wrong person (read some of the threads on here where people talk about the cost of their divorce if you want some stories) and so I think understanding her thinking is much more important that the cash.
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Thinking about this more. Maybe you get her the ring at the end of your 2L summer when you've been actually extended a Big Law offer. As long as you don't screw up too much and don't summer at a firm with bad financials you'll be in good shape. Then get married right after you take the bar. You'll have time for a nice honeymoon before getting into big law where your soul will be crushed for the first few years ;-)
DH and I got married after the bar but before he started at his big law job.
Getting engaged now probably doesn't make too much sense unless she wants a two year engagement. You don't want to be distracted with wedding planning while you are a summer because you should be focused on impressing them. That said, to get a no offer from a big law firm after summering there meant that you really screwed up...
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I always remember this story:
http://www.ultimatehusband.com/8cow_wife.htm (http://www.ultimatehusband.com/8cow_wife.htm)
Don't be cheap here. Symbolic value matters. Don't just do the minimum, try to out do her expectations. Go the extra mile. Surprise her. Be romantic. This is not groceries.
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I really don't think we as commenters should tell the OP when he should propose or get married. "I am going to propose at the end of the year" is how he opened this thread. No doubt. No equivocation. Telling him to wait another six months to a year qualifies as relationship advice, which he didn't really ask for. I guess you could argue that all advice about these kinds of things are at root relationship advice, but I dunno. Telling someone who didn't ask when you think he should get married? I just find that presumptuous and underscores how low the stakes are for all of us on here compared to the OP. This is his life. This is his relationship. I think he knows best when to propose.
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I think it's a ridiculous amount to spend on a ring. BUT considering your savings and income at your age, if you want to spend a ridiculous amount it would probably not kill you in the grand scheme of things. I'd blow that on travel in a heartbeat, and your girlfriend/wife will wear it every day, so I suppose you could justify it that way.
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@justajane I re-read my comment and I can see how it, and others comes off that way. It also looks like I strangely think there are only two marriage models for this couple.
I think I want to say that marriage and relationships are about more than just money, and that the decision needs to be made in the context of their own relationship, which we, as internet commenters don't know anything about.
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You're going to find a whole lot of people on here who will say that's a lot of money for a trinket. To me, it would be a lot of money for a wedding ring set but you just said it's her dream ring. You could take all these people's advice and try to convince her that her dream is unrealistic. I don't know your girlfriend so I don't know how well that will go over. However, I could think of worse things to spend money on, where you would have rather not spent it. Two summers ago my wife lost her wedding band/engagement ring at the beach and she cried for days. I mean hysterical, hyperventilating crying. It was that important to her. She's a frugal person too so it's not like she heavily values material things. Shoot, she probably considered it her most valuable (emotionally) possession. Everyone is different. You know your money situation and your girlfriend the best. Maybe there's a great alternative, or maybe it's worth it.
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I really don't think we as commenters should tell the OP when he should propose or get married. "I am going to propose at the end of the year" is how he opened this thread. No doubt. No equivocation. Telling him to wait another six months to a year qualifies as relationship advice, which he didn't really ask for. I guess you could argue that all advice about these kinds of things are at root relationship advice, but I dunno. Telling someone who didn't ask when you think he should get married? I just find that presumptuous and underscores how low the stakes are for all of us on here compared to the OP. This is his life. This is his relationship. I think he knows best when to propose.
I was just thinking of how to make the financial burden of an expensive ring have less of an impact on his financial future. He'll have a lot more available cash after his summer internship than he does now. I guess that was my main point - financially he'll be in a much better position after his summer. Also he will know after he summers whether or not big law is for him. There are definitely people who do the summer internship after 2L and decide "nope" big law is not for me. The summer internship is definitely big law on easy mode, but he can get an idea of firm culture, etc. Also, in the very rare instance that he gets no-offered it would make sense to have that available cash.
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I'm also a member of a jewelry forum, and I probably wouldn't buy a ring from CostCo or BlueNile, as recommended in this thread. Another option: buy the center stone and propose with that (or put in a simple solitaire), and then she can buy the setting or upgrade the setting to a halo setting later. Jewelry websites I'd recommend since they aren't drop shippers:
www.whiteflash.com
www.jamesallen.com
www.briangavindiamonds.com
If you want more specific advice, feel free to private message me. I'm happy to help people find rings within their budget.
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I did not read all replies, forgive me, but I wanted to share our anecdote. When we first started looking, my (now) wife started looking solely at Tiffany engagement rings in the $6000+ price range. It gave me sticker shock, and we had an emotional discussion following this. Of course she liked the idea of a crazy, instantly recognizable brand name high-end ring. But she also values making smart choices with money very much. We talked about what was important to us, what we value in the long-term, and, not without some tears, agreed to consider options outside of the Tiffany bubble. We ended up on www.idonowidont.com, and she actually ended up finding the ring set that we purchased. It was 8-months old, and the recently divorced girl was selling the set for about $1600. The original retail was around $4000. She absolutely loves this ring, and she also absolutely loves that we came to the decision together, agreed upon it, and spent a lot less than the initial suggestions.
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it's too much for some, and fine for others.
If this is representative of a desire to impress family, friends or co-workers then one could easily argue against it.
If this is the one time in your entire life that you will spend lots of money on something that isn't necessary or functional then I doubt anyone would argue against it.
The reality is somewhere in between. What do you think? Is it too much for YOU?
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...We ended up on www.idonowidont.com, and she actually ended up finding the ring set that we purchased. It was 8-months old, and the recently divorced girl was selling the set for about $1600. The original retail was around $4000. She absolutely loves this ring, and she also absolutely loves that we came to the decision together, agreed upon it, and spent a lot less than the initial suggestions.
This is a great story. It's a perfect compromise because you both got what you wanted and worked as a team to make it happen -- designer ring AND affordable price point.
As an engaged person, I like these stories about working together even more than "how s/he proposed stories".
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This is a great story.
Thanks!
As an engaged person, I like these stories about working together even more than "how s/he proposed stories".
That's too bad, it's a really good story as well :)
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...We ended up on www.idonowidont.com, and she actually ended up finding the ring set that we purchased. It was 8-months old, and the recently divorced girl was selling the set for about $1600. The original retail was around $4000. She absolutely loves this ring, and she also absolutely loves that we came to the decision together, agreed upon it, and spent a lot less than the initial suggestions.
This is a great story. It's a perfect compromise because you both got what you wanted and worked as a team to make it happen -- designer ring AND affordable price point.
As an engaged person, I like these stories about working together even more than "how s/he proposed stories".
I always forget about that site! I just looked at it and there are several for sale that are very similar to what OP is considering, but at half the cost.
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OP at the end of the day you can collect internet opinions all you want but only you know her and whether this strong preference for an expensive bauble paid for entirely by you is a one off thing or indicative of other financial issues.
Personally I skipped the engagement ring and we got married with $20 rings from Amazon so I'm not one to understand the joy of expensive jewelry but...
1. Skipping an engagement ring did lead to a lot of social pressure - mainly on my now husband. I quite happily announced "I'm cheap, I said I didn't want one" and everyone who knows me found that easy to believe. I think he worried more that people thought it was him being cheap when they asked and found we didn't get one.
2. Weddings are weird and do weird things to people. I can completely understand why she doesn't want to chip in to pay for her own engagement ring. I'm not saying it makes sense but I could see it really not being easy to tell people that your husband didn't value you enough to pay for the ring you really wanted and so you paid for half yourself. Of course that's not what you would say... but it's how it would come across to a lot of people.
I'd say talk, talk and talk some more about it with your fiancee. The money isn't really the main issue, it's how she's going to feel about this. If that particular ring is really what she has her heart set on and you want to marry her then, since you can actually afford it, then I think you should. But I'd be more curious to know what it is exactly that is driving her desire for a Costco ring of all things.
At the end of the day $5000 is nothing compared to the cost of marrying the wrong person (read some of the threads on here where people talk about the cost of their divorce if you want some stories) and so I think understanding her thinking is much more important that the cash.
+1 (emphasis added as well)
This is a frugal board. Of course you're going to get a lot of people here advising against it. Let's agree - this is not the most frugal move! Regardless, it may still be the best decision.
People here are quick to attack things that aren't their gazingas. If they travel, they attack those living in HOC area. If they spend money on their children's education (and woe betide one who pays for an ivy league college education rather than making the kid pay), they attack those spend their money on travel. And so on.
Kamingoe is right. Figure out if this is a one off, or if this is indicative of a difference in values. If it's a difference in values, you've got a lot more thinks to coming. If it's a one off, only you can decide if it's worth it - if she really wants it, it's very sentimental to her, she'll wear it every day as her only piece of jewelry, etc. Talk to her.
But the other posters are right that you may change your mind about biglaw or not get that plum job. I had friends that happened to them. So consider compromises. There's no need to postpone a wedding over a ring you can't currently afford though. Why not agree to $100 rings now, until after you start your biglaw job full-time. Then when you have the income to afford it, replace it. Use the $100 ring when you travel and you may be worried about safety. For the $100 ring, consider something quite sentimental - friends of mine made each other rings in a jewelry studio which looked really awesome. (Btw, don't get $1k rings then upgrade to $5k rings!)
ETA: I will confess that I turned down a family ring, which is not the most frugal move. My MIL offered us her ring and DH & I both wanted to decline it. I'm not normally a "karma" person, but since her marriage ended *extremely* poorly and DH still has a bad relationship with his dad, I didn't want that to remind me whenever I looked at my ring. So you may get a great bargain at https://www.idonowidont.com/, but you may want to make sure she's comfortable with it. An anonymous ring is likely better than a family ring with known really bad history.
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I'm in a relationship and have had discussions on this very topic with friends. For the most part, people have told me: "You must do the 3 months salary" thing, which I think is bonkers, while others have said "shop together, find something reasonable, but beautiful."
From the sounds of it, a $4700 ring from Costco is reasonable. It's Costco, not Tiffany's (btw, does Costco give you bulk rings? :D Kidding...). I also factor in the type of girl my SO is - she barely wears any jewelry and she has always stated I should never buy it for her because it's a waste of money. I think she owns maybe 3 sets of earrings and 1 necklace, tops.
So for me, knowing that she will never ask for jewelry in the future, if she saw a ring, and said: "This is what I want", and it was reasonable, I'd go for it, knowing it would probably be the only piece of jewelry I would ever buy her. And so, yeah, I'd drop the $4700 because I'd want to get it right.
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I just don't see a one-time extravagant purchase of a ring to be that big of deal for dual income earners who make a decent income.
The problem is they are not a dual income couple. She has made it clear she will not contribute towards the ring. He is still in school and his 6 figure salary is 1-2 years away from becoming a reality.
Dude, they're 24 and already have $100k in retirement accounts, and next year he is going to earn $40k in a single summer being a summer associate in a huge law firm. They're fine. And she's happy with a ring from Costco that costs less than half what a similar ring would cost elsewhere. This is just not a big deal.
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Why can't it ever be happy husband happy life??????
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
Happy spouse, happy house.
The original saying is telling, of course, in a gender politics way.
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I just don't see a one-time extravagant purchase of a ring to be that big of deal for dual income earners who make a decent income.
The problem is they are not a dual income couple. She has made it clear she will not contribute towards the ring. He is still in school and his 6 figure salary is 1-2 years away from becoming a reality.
Dude, they're 24 and already have $100k in retirement accounts, and next year he is going to earn $40k in a single summer being a summer associate in a huge law firm. They're fine. And she's happy with a ring from Costco that costs less than half what a similar ring would cost elsewhere. This is just not a big deal.
+1000
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I just don't see a one-time extravagant purchase of a ring to be that big of deal for dual income earners who make a decent income.
The problem is they are not a dual income couple. She has made it clear she will not contribute towards the ring. He is still in school and his 6 figure salary is 1-2 years away from becoming a reality.
Dude, they're 24 and already have $100k in retirement accounts, and next year he is going to earn $40k in a single summer being a summer associate in a huge law firm. They're fine. And she's happy with a ring from Costco that costs less than half what a similar ring would cost elsewhere. This is just not a big deal.
+1000
Yeah, the 100K in retirement at twenty fucking four years old sold me too. After I saw that I was basically like, DO IT!
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MMM Forum Response: Find a woman who would be happy wearing paper bag that you found behind a local organize market. Also, live behind Home Depot for inexpensive living. You would be surprised with how much great stuff they throw away. All of the cut pieces of lumber too small to resell is thrown out and you can forage that to build your house. The flowers that are dying and marked off 50%? When those don't sell, they throw those out too! Use these to create a beautiful yard to your newly created house.
We know nothing about your spending other than what you have accumulated through your retirements, but it seems that you guys are doing well.
Obviously, putting that $5k into an index fund is financially more literate so is living under a freeway overpass.
$5k for a wedding set? Go for it.
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Honestly, here are my thoughts:
- I'd go with moissanite, but that's because: 1. I used to work for the company that made the material, and I have some at home (discount, obv), and 2. Blood diamonds (can you check whether the Costco diamonds are ethically sourced?)
- My engagement ring was...$2000? $3000? Purchased in 1995. Wanna know how much I wear it? 2x a year. (it's not massive, it's a 3/4 ct princess cut. I just spent over a decade working in a cleanroom, and it was a pain to put a glove on over it, so I stopped wearing it). I realize, however, that I am the exception. Most of my girlfriends wear their rings.
- I think it's spendypants and consumerist. But honestly, at your incomes, I wouldn't sweat it. I was making about $50k back then and my future husband had recently quit work to start grad school. $95k is a great salary at 24. I'm 46, and ... I don't wanna talk about it. (just remind myself...you have exchanged location and flexibility for salary...ad nauseum).
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Please post link of said ring. :)
http://www.costco.com/Round-Brilliant-1.18-ctw-VS2-Clarity%2c-I-Color-Diamond-Platinum-Ring.product.11650596.html (http://www.costco.com/Round-Brilliant-1.18-ctw-VS2-Clarity%2c-I-Color-Diamond-Platinum-Ring.product.11650596.html)
In store it comes with a band that apparently adds ~$700 to the $3999 price tag above
ooh pretty. I like shiny things. I just don't wear them much.
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I just don't see a one-time extravagant purchase of a ring to be that big of deal for dual income earners who make a decent income.
The problem is they are not a dual income couple. She has made it clear she will not contribute towards the ring. He is still in school and his 6 figure salary is 1-2 years away from becoming a reality.
Eh, I'm coming at this as someone who just celebrated her 20th wedding anniversary.
When my husband proposed, he'd just left the Navy and it was July. Grad school started in September. He was unemployed and earning NO income (so I guess he could have taken it to the extreme and not gotten me a ring?) At that point, we'd been together 2.5 years. The wedding date was very soon after set for the following summer. Our *future* dual income was my Navy salary and his $13k per year grad student salary. (He was in grad school for 7 years.)
So, to me, 1-2 years is kind of a drop in the bucket, compared to the 7 year plan. (as far as "future income")
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We ended up on www.idonowidont.com, and she actually ended up finding the ring set that we purchased. It was 8-months old, and the recently divorced girl was selling the set for about $1600. The original retail was around $4000. She absolutely loves this ring, and she also absolutely loves that we came to the decision together, agreed upon it, and spent a lot less than the initial suggestions.
I'm intrigued by this idea. How did/can you verify that what you buy is legit on this site?
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Relative to your assets, income and earning potential, it's nbd. She isn't asking for a lot in relative to your earning power. One thought is that as a summer associate, she may be your guest at a lot of social events where the women will wear $30K+ rings and want to ogle her ring. That may not matter to you, but it could matter to her. You are going into an extremely status conscious environment, so whatever you can get her that she'll feel proud of, is worth it, IMO.
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Buy the ring she wants. It's the most important piece of jewelry she will have. She is clearly not someone who doesn't care, so don't treat her as such. My engagement ring alone was more than that I love it every single day (for 12 years now). My sisters DH got her a ring and my sister had to tell him she didn't like and they went and exchanged it. She's still disappointed with her ring. Who wants to be disappointed with their engagement/wedding ring? It's not about being spoiled or greedy or falling for marketing. Just because some people see it that way, doesn't mean everyone does and not does it make it true. Do what makes HER happy, not people on this forum. You're starting a life with HER. I do realize if you were both making min wage at walmart, then maybe you have to scale down your expectations, but she knows what's realistically appropriate for you guys.
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I think it is strange how a lot of people are encouraging this guy to go ahead any buy it, when if it was anything other than an engagement ring people would be facepunching him.
It comes down to:
This guy wants to buy something that is 52% of his current cash savings. He currently has more debt than his non-steady income. He MIGHT make more in a couple of years time, but right now his student loans are more than he earns. This item he buys will depreciate in value the moment he pays for it. It is a bad financial move.
Exactly. Since it is an emotional decision tied to an institution that most people can relate to this gets a pass on the face punches.
Following the line of thinking about having to have a big ring for others to ogle at company events, next comes the fancy car, big house, expensive suits and other crap to show off you status and have folks ogle over. All of this is keeping up with the joneses wrapped up with emotions and justified because of the high lifestyle profession chosen. Hey, but at least this ring might go well with your golden handcuffs.
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FWIW, I don't think it's a crime for even Mustachians to have one or two "must-haves" when it comes to weddings/engagements, things that just make you so, so happy.
For my wedding I wanted a very specific dress by an indie designer that cost ~$2400, but mentally I just couldn't justify it- I really, really loved it and even experimented with having a local seamstress help me copy it, but ultimately that fell through and I just couldn't spend the money. Instead I got a different dress by the same designer that was much less intricate and was "good enough," and cost a fraction of the price
Well, it's been almost four years and I STILL regret not getting the dress I wanted.
(here it is: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XCCQaVLf58g/Tr4DUTozR8I/AAAAAAAAGl8/Oto5aeu2AakET_u9yxXCN0MdPBaGySEXgCHM/s140-c/IMG_6089.jpg)
I know it's dumb, and irrational, but it's a wedding and will (hopefully) only happen once! A splurge on the PERFECT ring or dress or venue or whatever, if you are in a good financial situation, shouldn't be a source for guilt.
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Is this is what she wants, and she's perfect in every other way, then get her the ring.
I agree completely with this one. It's great to be frugal, and it sounds like she normally is. It's more than fine to allow yourself some luxuries. As long as you don't go overboard with other luxuries in the future that it makes you deep in debt, that is. :)
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I think it is strange how a lot of people are encouraging this guy to go ahead any buy it, when if it was anything other than an engagement ring people would be facepunching him.
It comes down to:
This guy wants to buy something that is 52% of his current cash savings. He currently has more debt than his non-steady income. He MIGHT make more in a couple of years time, but right now his student loans are more than he earns. This item he buys will depreciate in value the moment he pays for it. It is a bad financial move.
Exactly. Since it is an emotional decision tied to an institution that most people can relate to this gets a pass on the face punches.
Following the line of thinking about having to have a big ring for others to ogle at company events, next comes the fancy car, big house, expensive suits and other crap to show off you status and have folks ogle over. All of this is keeping up with the joneses wrapped up with emotions and justified because of the high lifestyle profession chosen. Hey, but at least this ring might go well with your golden handcuffs.
Your argument is too slippery slope-like for a couple who has 100K in retirement by age 24. Seriously, I would have killed to have that much financial know-how by that age. Did you see that his loans are 50K for a degree that could earn him annually over three times that? I would say that is a pretty good ROI. Plus, his future wife makes 90K by 24. Holy shit.
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Nothing in the OP tells me the future wife is frugal, everyone seems to be making that assumption. Are you basing that off of retirement accounts vs salary?
Here is how I see it: OP will do whatever he wants in the end. People do not come post questions like this to have their minds changed. They want confirmation of their decisions.
My real honest suggestion: Propose with a piece of string ;)
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Nothing in the OP tells me the future wife is frugal, everyone seems to be making that assumption. Are you basing that off of retirement accounts vs salary?
No. We are basing it off of OP's original post, which includes this quote:
She is frugal, and has around $50k in retirement accounts, and <$10k in very low interest student debt.
Of course there is always a question of degree of frugality, but we are taking OP at his word and reasoning that, since OP is on this forum, he has a basic understanding of what people on this forum consider to be "frugal."
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I think it is strange how a lot of people are encouraging this guy to go ahead any buy it, when if it was anything other than an engagement ring people would be facepunching him.
It comes down to:
This guy wants to buy something that is 52% of his current cash savings. He currently has more debt than his non-steady income. He MIGHT make more in a couple of years time, but right now his student loans are more than he earns. This item he buys will depreciate in value the moment he pays for it. It is a bad financial move.
Exactly. Since it is an emotional decision tied to an institution that most people can relate to this gets a pass on the face punches.
Following the line of thinking about having to have a big ring for others to ogle at company events, next comes the fancy car, big house, expensive suits and other crap to show off you status and have folks ogle over. All of this is keeping up with the joneses wrapped up with emotions and justified because of the high lifestyle profession chosen. Hey, but at least this ring might go well with your golden handcuffs.
Yes 100% this! My husband works big law and a lot of people try to keep up with appearances. He has some coworkers in his year earning 260k base + 70k bonus who basically live paycheck to paycheck. It is insane. I feel like you really need to fight the lifestyle creep. "Oh of course, I work in big law, I need at least a 2 bedroom on the upper east side" "I work big law, I can drop $100+ per night on drinks" "I NEED a housekeeper for the apartment that I'm never home at because I work long hours and go out all the time" "I NEED a fancy kitchen (even though I never cook)" The one that really gets me is people who own personal cars in Manhattan - really? Anyway, as the wife of a big law associate, I really don't care what people think about my $60 wedding band or my clothes that I buy on clearance. Luckily DH and I are mostly on the same page as far as frugality. I probably go to maybe 1 or 2 work functions with him per year -- they don't happen all the time. I don't think that anyone has judged me for my lack of a fancy ring, and if they did I think that says a whole lot more about them than about me.
You should really have a discussion about your financial expectations/budgeting moving forward. These financial conversations need to take place before marriage (and ideally before engagement).
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Nothing in the OP tells me the future wife is frugal, everyone seems to be making that assumption. Are you basing that off of retirement accounts vs salary?
Here is how I see it: OP will do whatever he wants in the end. People do not come post questions like this to have their minds changed. They want confirmation of their decisions.
My real honest suggestion: Propose with a piece of string ;)
Haha. Or a cracker jack box ring.
But here's the thing: if his wife isn't frugal, buying or not buying the ring really doesn't matter much, does it? There would be larger problems not outlined here. Tell me how not buying the ring that a woman really wants is going to make things better long term for them if she isn't frugal. It's not like if she isn't frugal, him giving her a piece of string is going to lead her to scratch her head and say, "Huh. I guess you're right honey. What have I been thinking all these years? I will embrace frugality and the simpler life now."
He hasn't given any indication that she's a spendthrift or that this is a sign of a larger problem. Honestly? Based on the circles they seem to be in, this is a frugal ring.
I don't get it at all. Jewelry matters to me none. Less than none. But, sorry, I just can't find the outrage or embrace the slippery slope on this one.
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You've probably had more opinions on this then you want but I'm going to chime in. You are in a good place financially, the reason you don't fritter away money on crap is so you have some when you either A) need something or B) really want something, have thought about it and shopped around for a good deal on it.
If that is the use of $4700 that will make your future wife the most happy, buy her the damn ring. If not, use it for something else like a great photographer, fabulous wedding dress, 3 week honeymoon, ect, etc. You can't have all of these things, so you have to choose which is the most important to you and her. If it's the ring that she will wear for hopefully a really long time or the honeymoon you will look back on for years, or looking at your bank balance and seeing an extra 5k - act accordingly.
Personally, I think the ring is gorgeous! I recently got engaged ($400 ring, similar style with non-diamond center stone) and decided I'd rather take a fabulous honeymoon trip than have a fancier ring. But that is me, it's a personal choice. By all means don't feel any "Mustache guilt" for buying a 5k ring.
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Haha. Or a cracker jack box ring.
Nowadays you only get stickers or temporary tattoos from Cracker Jack. Nevermind, I just looked--you don't even get that anymore. Just a digital code that'll let you "bring the ballpark to life on your mobile device." Lame. http://www.today.com/food/cracker-jack-replacing-toy-prizes-inside-digital-codes-t87811
Maybe propose with an onion ring?
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Just ran across this.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/07/28/mila-kunis-ashton-kutcher-wedding-band-etsy
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I'm usually frugal and not sentimental. That said, I am very glad that we got engaged before we found MMM.
My DH picked out the ring on his own and was very generous. It's perfect. Every time I look at it I smile, and it's the only jewelry I wear besides cheap earrings. It will last a lifetime and even though it's not what we would decide if we were to buy one today, I wouldn't change it for the world.
This shouldn't matter, but it does: while my coworkers have Porches and McMansions and we choose to live simply, I do love that my ring is just as pretty (more so, IMHO) than theirs.
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I wanted an engagement ring that was pretty expensve for my grad student soon-to-be husband. But in every other category, I am frugal. He also had a lot of assets, even though his income as a graduate assistant was not much.
So he bought it and I still love it 25+years later.
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Hey, but at least this ring might go well with your golden handcuffs.
Lololol
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Hey, but at least this ring might go well with your golden handcuffs.
1. I haven't decided to get this ring and am, in fact, leaning against doing so. At least until I've exhausted all these great suggestions. 2. I grossed ~$100k/yr before law school and managed to keep my expenses below $15k/yr in a very HCOL area, despite cynics like yourself assuring me I wouldn't be able to resist. But I greatly appreciate your totally logical and not at all emotional concern over this. Plus, I get great joy out of living ironically, so I'm much more likely to show up to the office on a cargobike than in a BMW, for a number of reasons. 3. I could easily graduate with $0.00 in debt, but my strategy is to leverage a relatively small amount of loans to benefit from my retirement investments' compound interest/tax advantages/etc. over the next X years, instead of just avoiding like 8 months of low loan interest upfront.
To answer a couple other questions that have come up. The gf has never once mentioned wanting jewelry outside of this engagement ring, she bought a Honda Fit before I even knew how Mustachian it was, she buys 95% of her clothes at Costco, and was glad to live in an absolute shithole of a studio with me so that I could save enough money to attend law school. We talk about our finances weekly and have agreed to consult w/ each other for purchase above a certain price. Not to mention, she frontloads her Roth IRA, maxes her 401k, and contributes to Vanguard taxable accounts. She's definitely not as frugal as me, but hey, that's one small cost of partnering with someone whose own strengths compliment my weaknesses. The more I think about it, we should start a blog on this ha!
Ok, I've already shared way more than I needed to, but I appreciate all the great responses. Thanks everyone.
***OP drops mic and leaves the room***
OP: Sorry this thread blew up like it did. I imagine you didn't realize how strong some of the push-back would be when you first posted. Most of the time the people here are well-meaning, intelligent, insightful, and balanced but there are certain subjects that set people off. You found one of those subject's where this forum's unflinching dedication to rationality clashes with sentimentality and general social norms. Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that it is okay that other people don't always agree with the areas in which we choose to spend more freely.
Your girlfriend sounds like a good catch and it seems you have a strong relationship with her. Go forth and propose to her in the way you think is best, opinions of us internet folks be damned. We'll shut up now, as you have clearly heard enough from us on this subject.
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For the naysayers, think of it this way. People drop a few grand on a short vacation all the damned time. Two plane tickets: $800 minimum. Five nights in a hotel: $500 minimum (in any major location). Food: Let's say $50 a day, which is pretty cheap, so $250. Throw in another few hundred for incidentals, and you've got a cheap, arguably Mustachian vacation for two at 2K.
I don't think that's a mustachian vacation....
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http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/17/royal-wedding-shloyal-fledding/
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Jeremy linking the above article illustrates my point. As we continue to justify expensive things due to societal norms, or because it would "make us happy" we lose sight of what this blog/forum is about. This blog and forum is about bucking the status quo, questioning these norms, and resisting the temptation for lifestyle inflation. Just because this is a wedding and love and emotions are involved does not make it OK to ignore the core principles of the forums. If you ask a question like this expect a face punching.
OP, I was not assuring you that you would not be able to resist the temptation of lifestyle creep due to a high lifestyle career, I was following another poster's logic that you need shiny things to impress coworkers, and entertaining where this line of thinking leads. Perhaps I should not have used the word "your" in the golden handcuff comment, that made it personal. However, it is obvious that a nerve was touched.
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For the naysayers, think of it this way. People drop a few grand on a short vacation all the damned time. Two plane tickets: $800 minimum. Five nights in a hotel: $500 minimum (in any major location). Food: Let's say $50 a day, which is pretty cheap, so $250. Throw in another few hundred for incidentals, and you've got a cheap, arguably Mustachian vacation for two at 2K.
I don't think that's a mustachian vacation....
Depends on where you are going. If you ever in your entire life want to see a place that is not driving distance from where you live, these days it's hard to fly anywhere for less than $300-$400 a person. If it's a major city or desirable place anywhere in the world, a hotel will cost ca. $100 a night or more.
Food is debatable, of course, depending on your tastes, but come on, in what universe is the vacation I described above extravagant? Mind you, I haven't taken a trip like this for a long time, but I'm a cheap bastard who doesn't go on vacations. If you value travel at all, these are reasonable numbers. Show me how they aren't without extensive travel hacking.
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For the naysayers, think of it this way. People drop a few grand on a short vacation all the damned time. Two plane tickets: $800 minimum. Five nights in a hotel: $500 minimum (in any major location). Food: Let's say $50 a day, which is pretty cheap, so $250. Throw in another few hundred for incidentals, and you've got a cheap, arguably Mustachian vacation for two at 2K.
I don't think that's a mustachian vacation....
Depends on where you are going. If you ever in your entire life want to see a place that is not driving distance from where you live, these days it's hard to fly anywhere for less than $300-$400 a person. If it's a major city or desirable place anywhere in the world, a hotel will cost ca. $100 a night or more.
Food is debatable, of course, depending on your tastes, but come on, in what universe is the vacation I described above extravagant? Mind you, I haven't taken a trip like this for a long time, but I'm a cheap bastard who doesn't go on vacations. If you value travel at all, these are reasonable numbers. Show me how they aren't without extensive travel hacking.
All I'm saying is I don't think it's mustachian. There is credit card rewards (travel hacking), air bnb, geographic arbitrage slow travel, making your own food, and many other things in your example not being utilized. This is a topic for another thread though...
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I agree with those who say to buy your future wife the ring that she selected -- despite the fact that this is not a Mustachian choice.
Reasons:
* Your future wife has probably chosen this ring with the idea that she is going to be wearing it every day. Personally, if I were you, I would want my spouse to feel 100% happy about something that I had to choose for them to wear at almost all times for the rest of their life.
* You aren't paying for your own wedding. So this whole "getting married" thing would only cost you $4,700, for the ring. And it seems like you can afford this, as a couple.
* For some people in the more minimalist camp, wearing a ring is just an extravagance or not something thy would want anyway. But for others a ring is vested with important symbolic meaning. Sometimes it is okay to acquire such objects -- a prop in an significant ritual. Maybe you don't care about the prop, but your fiancee clearly does, and this might be one of those moments where it is best to defer to her wishes.
* I'm assuming that this is a one-time, special thing -- you aren't going to be in a marriage where you are always guilted into buying expensive consumer goods.
Having said this, I must also ask:
Might there be less expensive options that are even better? Maybe there's an old heirloom ring lying at the bottom of a jewelry box that everyone has forgotten about? Or you could buy a diamond ring second-hand and have it re-set to your fiancee's exact specifications.
I myself wasn't planning to have an engagement ring -- it was not important to me, & I didn't want my husband to buy me something expensive just because of weird old gender norms. But then I inherited a ring from my great-grandmother. I had the diamond put in a new custom setting that mirrored my mother's engagement ring. This cost about $1,300 (which I paid for myself). I love the ring so much more than I even expected. It's basically the only sparkly expensive jewelry I wear or care about. It was maybe not the absolute most thrifty choice but well worth the joy it brings me. My husband and I also made our own wedding bands at a metal-working shop.
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In my personal opinion, yes absolutely it's insanely expensive. We were married 6 years ago, early 20s and had enough money to buy extravagant rings. Instead, my husband found a used ring from a jewelry store he loved and I bought mine new. Set totaled under $1000. We both still love the rings, they're beautiful and looking at them means more then what we paid.
That's fine, some say to just buy it for her as it will make her happy. For me, it's hard to fathom that still. How a $5000 set makes you happier then a $1000... I'm not sure. We only went to two stores and it was quite easy finding one that I loved with a price I could live with. I would much rather take the extra money saved and use it for the honeymoon or future expenses.
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I'm 28 and got engaged last year and married in January, so I know the feeling. My wife's ring was around $5500 and band maybe $800-$1000
My opinion - buy the ring she wants. Zero question about it.
My thought was - do I really want to spend the next 40 years looking at her finger thinking, "sure am glad I skimped on that thing." Especially when I'm already maxing retirement accounts and lots of saving in addition to that.
Not to mention - she's already frugal and her parents are paying for the wedding.
My wife is the most easy to please and down to earth woman I have met. She would be happy with anything I bought her. However, because of this, I wanted to buy her something I found beautiful as well. She never gave me a specific ring she wanted, just ideas. I bought her a 1 carat oval diamond with a halo and diamonds on the band in platinum. I love it.
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Sorry I didn't read the thread, but I can only assume that with such incredible group of people here, buying used must have been mentioned 'numerous times' by this point. I will make no suggestion as to how much Op spend as that is purely a very personal decision. This is the most classic mustacian example I can think of where something should be bought used, so I will focus on that rather than specific dollar amount you should spend.
My 'additional' example of buying new (Even at Costco) is for suckers:
I originally purchased my wife a $200 ring on Ebay which was okay. After a couple years my wife bought a .75 carat on Ebay that was high quality for $500. (Actually it ended up being ~2/3 carat, but we got such a good deal we kept it.) Her band / wrap cost another couple hundred dollars. (She has kept the original ring so far, but for comparison sake, I am not going to include it in the following calculation.) I am unaware of how good Costco is pricing is on rings, but For $700 she ended up with a set that is likely as good, or nearly as good as the one you are looking at. *Update I looked at Costco rings, and although they are priced a good deal less that other places, I'd still say they are overpriced compared to used. For comparison, I need to mention that the 2/3 carat weight I mentioned above was for a single stone and purchased 7 years ago. Costco mentions some wild carat weights that need some smaller stones subtracted from them. (.9-1 carat is the highest main stone I saw in the <$5000 price range).
**** I'm sure Ebay will be highly criticized for some of the junk that gets pushed on there. I will mention that for both the rings, I asked a local pawn shop (Which specializes in Jewelry) what they would pay me to purchase. They offered something just under my (undisclosed) purchase price on both occasions. To me that means I got a good deal. Anyone that doesn't agree, take your ring from Kays, Jarad, or Costco and see what a pawn shop offers.
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Just a point to think about to put things into perspective, $4700 is equal to 940 Costco Chickens.
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/confusion-about-how-to-be-'set-for-life'/msg1152755/#msg1152755
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Sorry I didn't read the thread, but I can only assume that with such incredible group of people here, buying used must have been mentioned 'numerous times' by this point. I will make no suggestion as to how much Op spend as that is purely a very personal decision. This is the most classic mustacian example I can think of where something should be bought used, so I will focus on that rather than specific dollar amount you should spend.
My 'additional' example of buying new (Even at Costco) is for suckers:
I originally purchased my wife a $200 ring on Ebay which was okay. After a couple years my wife bought a .75 carat on Ebay that was high quality for $500. (Actually it ended up being ~2/3 carat, but we got such a good deal we kept it.) Her band / wrap cost another couple hundred dollars. (She has kept the original ring so far, but for comparison sake, I am not going to include it in the following calculation.) I am unaware of how good Costco is pricing is on rings, but For $700 she ended up with a set that is likely as good, or nearly as good as the one you are looking at. *Update I looked at Costco rings, and although they are priced a good deal less that other places, I'd still say they are overpriced compared to used. For comparison, I need to mention that the 2/3 carat weight I mentioned above was for a single stone and purchased 7 years ago. Costco mentions some wild carat weights that need some smaller stones subtracted from them. (.9-1 carat is the highest main stone I saw in the <$5000 price range).
**** I'm sure Ebay will be highly criticized for some of the junk that gets pushed on there. I will mention that for both the rings, I asked a local pawn shop (Which specializes in Jewelry) what they would pay me to purchase. They offered something just under my (undisclosed) purchase price on both occasions. To me that means I got a good deal. Anyone that doesn't agree, take your ring from Kays, Jarad, or Costco and see what a pawn shop offers.
Price is based on more than just carat weight, there's also cut, color, and clarity. You can have a beautiful tiny diamand or a dull huge one for the same price. http://www.bluenile.com/education/diamonds?gclid=CjwKEAjww_a8BRDB-O-OqZb_vRASJAA9yrc5-K7FeRW9ESUWMioB-DCiJjCN2rdOEj9sCKmVGJXOGBoCPGvw_wcB&click_id=630285599
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Jeremy linking the above article illustrates my point. As we continue to justify expensive things due to societal norms, or because it would "make us happy" we lose sight of what this blog/forum is about.
It's interesting where the line gets drawn. Why $4700? What if a $20,000 Tiffany would "make her happy"? Is that outrageous and why? Would she still get a pass?
Why would a $4700 ring have more sentimental value than a used $1000* ring that looks just as nice (and is more unique)? Does the extra $3700 mean it has MORE inherent sentimental value the instant it's put on the finger? If that's the case, then the $20,000 Tiffany would be over 4x as sentimental! Who could deny that to the love of their life?
* That has a "real" value of $3000 but we all know that jewelry appraisals are garbage.
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Jeremy linking the above article illustrates my point. As we continue to justify expensive things due to societal norms, or because it would "make us happy" we lose sight of what this blog/forum is about.
It's interesting where the line gets drawn. Why $4700? What if a $20,000 Tiffany would "make her happy"? Is that outrageous and why? Would she still get a pass?
Why would a $4700 ring have more sentimental value than a used $1000* ring that looks just as nice (and is more unique)? Does the extra $3700 mean it has MORE inherent sentimental value the instant it's put on the finger? If that's the case, then the $20,000 Tiffany would be over 4x as sentimental! Who could deny that to the love of their life?
* That has a "real" value of $3000 but we all know that jewelry appraisals are garbage.
I can't speak for anyone else on this thread, but I have taken into account the relative cost of the ring in my answer. No, based on their income, 20K would not have been received in the same way, at least not by me.
Based on your logic, though, we should all be wearing $50 silver rings, because you could argue anything more expensive is too extravagant. That 1K ring you're talking about could certainly be found even cheaper as well.
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First, I think both her current income and your hypothetical future income are both irrelevant. Even if you made $1M yearly, I'd still ask the same question:
Does buying a $4,700 ring ever make sense? Does one truly get an increase in satisfaction every day by looking down at something valued at $4,700 vs something valued at $200? Considering all of the manufacturing processes and different materials available today, does it really make sense to pay for the real thing? Just about anything "real" can be mimicked. The point is - how is the average consumer going to ever know what is actually real and what isn't?
So I guess that's my personal thoughts on it - I never would purchase one simply out of principle. I can basically get 95% of the real thing in terms of looks and long-term happiness for probably 1/10th or less of the cost. I just seriously doubt that rings bring any real long-term happiness.
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I think part of the problem with answering questions like this, is the second person. The OP isn't asking if he should spend $4700 on himself. He's asking if he should $4700 on a ring is gf has requested, and has reaffirmed her continued desire for that particular ring. Right?
Which means the OP seeks isn't permission to buy, or denial to buy. He's posting on a forum that's connected to a blog, that's designed root and stem to ridicule and pillory emotionally driven purchases. He knows what the answer will be (or should be, if posters remain faithfull to the spirit of the blog). What posters like this are really asking is: help me convince the other person that my desire for frugality is superior to their emotions. That's really, really not something an internet forum can actually accomplish.
Secondary concern, posts like this open the other person up to ridicule. Probably all unknown to them. The gf sounds monetarily responsible, but doesn't seem to fit into the MMM mould. She wants that ring. That doesn't make her immoral. Yet, in the frame of this forum, her desire for frippery opens her to ridicule. Doesn't seem very loving.
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I think part of the problem with answering questions like this, is the second person. The OP isn't asking if he should spend $4700 on himself. He's asking if he should $4700 on a ring is gf has requested, and has reaffirmed her continued desire for that particular ring. Right?
Which means the OP seeks isn't permission to buy, or denial to buy. He's posting on a forum that's connected to a blog, that's designed root and stem to ridicule and pillory emotionally driven purchases. He knows what the answer will be (or should be, if posters remain faithfull to the spirit of the blog). What posters like this are really asking is: help me convince the other person that my desire for frugality is superior to their emotions. That's really, really not something an internet forum can actually accomplish.
Secondary concern, posts like this open the other person up to ridicule. Probably all unknown to them. The gf sounds monetarily responsible, but doesn't seem to fit into the MMM mould. She wants that ring. That doesn't make her immoral. Yet, in the frame of this forum, her desire for frippery opens her to ridicule. Doesn't seem very loving.
+1 to this, and with her income the rings of her friends and coworkers likely cost much, much more. She probably thinks that $4700 is quite frugal, and in her world it probably is.
We're on the MMM forum, so we've all had some time to think about this and change our ways, but most of us haven't always lived this way.
Family money goals and discussions are very, very important, and they got much easier for us once we were married and the money was all in one pot. OP is in a tough position right now because he doesn't have a high income yet and she does. Maybe they could purchase less expensive rings now and agree to upgrade for an anniversary gift if they still want to in the future. Maybe by then she'll be a MMM forum contributor too and no longer want to upgrade, or maybe not.
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Go for it! A wedding ring is a symbol and a piece of jewellery she'll wear everyday.
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In another life I worked in the jewelry department of a department store. To only have 4 prongs on a 1ct. diamond would be a no-go for me. You do not want to skimp on the setting if you are springing for a 1ct stone! I would not get the one you linked to, but go to a jeweler in your area and look at similar rings with better, sturdier settings with at least 6 prongs. Mine is just a 1/4 ct. stone, and has either 6 or 8 prongs. If you have 4 prongs, one gets snagged, you lose your diamond and it is GONE. I got mine from a private jeweler, even though I worked in the jewelry dept. of that department store. When you are looking at a piece of jewelry your wife will wear daily, you want something that is made well, even if it costs a little more.
Other things to think about in a ring- how much does it stick up? WIll it get caught in everything? Are the prongs snaggy? SOme are smoother than others.
You asked more about the price. You can afford it, so my vote goes to yes. If you could not afford it, I'd say no. If it was a recurring expense, I'd say no. Happy shopping!
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Buy the ring. You can afford it and it will make her happy for the rest of her life. I have been married for 35 years. Not a day goes by that I don't look at my ring and smile. It is expensive but if the rest of the wedding is paid for and she is reasonably frugal otherwise it isn't really that much.
I do agree with a pp about the prongs. You should find something with a six prong setting.
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We ended up on www.idonowidont.com, and she actually ended up finding the ring set that we purchased. It was 8-months old, and the recently divorced girl was selling the set for about $1600. The original retail was around $4000. She absolutely loves this ring, and she also absolutely loves that we came to the decision together, agreed upon it, and spent a lot less than the initial suggestions.
I'm intrigued by this idea. How did/can you verify that what you buy is legit on this site?
https://www.idonowidont.com/how-it-works
The ring is shipped from the seller to the site. The site acts as an escrow. When they get the ring, they appraise it and send you a report. If it's not acceptably close to the described item, the deal is off, and the ring is returned, and you are given a refund. (Our ring was appraised for a lot more than the selling price, and our local jewelry store appraised the ring within an acceptable deviation from the IDNID report.)
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Well since we are talking about ring quality and getting good quality for the money, I would be skeptical about Costco. I doubt that they are using GIA rating. That color range, I, is not very high.
My guess is that your FI likes that setting and not so much the specs of the center diamond. Would she be open to you using that setting as your guide and finding another jeweler to provide something very similar?
I personally find the idea of a big box store engagement ring to be skeevy. I have look at the ones at Sam's and they are uniformly poor quality. Is Costco better? I doubt it.
My personal taste is to buy vintage, or else go to blue Nile online for somethng new. blue Nile has a great reputation and you can choose center stones with specific Criteria.
On the other hand, if you just want to get it done because you are a student and busy with other stuff, then go for the Costco ring and be done with it.
Edited to add: bigger is not better.
Yhere is a super gorgeous half carat oval Solitaire ring on . Idonowidont for $1700 that I would rather have than a Costco 1 carat. It is color E and VS1, GIA rated. That is high quality and it will sparkle a lot!
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Didn't read every comment here, but my thoughts:
(note: these are not necessarily aimed at the OP, as I get the sense he has taken all the commentary he wants, but just to add to the overall discussion)
- Don't buy something different without talking to her about it/getting her approval. You want everyone to be on board with the purchase, and the last thing you want is to disappoint her (particularly if she doesn't understand your reasoning for buying something different than what she showed you).
- If you present her with other options, be very clear that her original choice is still an option! I love the write-up in "step 21" here. (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/)
- If she decides she wants the original ring, buy it, be happy, and move on! Use the rest of the linked article to convert her over time :)
And to all the people saying SHE IS NOT CONTRIBUTING TO THE PURCHASE --- what?! I feel like this leads down a dark path of score-keeping of each thing someone in a relationship does to support one another. Ignoring the amount of paid and unpaid work they each likely do on a daily basis to contribute to their mutual success, THEY ARE GETTING MARRIED, and therefore the money he spends on the ring is essentially theirs, or at least it will be in a short amount of time. They are a team. It is a mutual decision and a mutual effort.
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Jeremy linking the above article illustrates my point. As we continue to justify expensive things due to societal norms, or because it would "make us happy" we lose sight of what this blog/forum is about. This blog and forum is about bucking the status quo, questioning these norms, and resisting the temptation for lifestyle inflation. Just because this is a wedding and love and emotions are involved does not make it OK to ignore the core principles of the forums. If you ask a question like this expect a face punching.
OP, I was not assuring you that you would not be able to resist the temptation of lifestyle creep due to a high lifestyle career, I was following another poster's logic that you need shiny things to impress coworkers, and entertaining where this line of thinking leads. Perhaps I should not have used the word "your" in the golden handcuff comment, that made it personal. However, it is obvious that a nerve was touched.
I always thought that it involved living according to your values. Lots of people get facepunched here for not being "perfect", but the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Whether it be cleaning ladies, a big house, nice cars, jewelry, vacations...everyone has their "thing". It's *ok* for some people, and not others. It's a sliding scale. Clearly, if you are at a negative net worth, it's wrong. For most people, if you are FIRE and can pay for it off the interest, it's okay.
So, what are your values? This site is full of people saying it's *okay* to fly to Ecuador, or Europe, or wherever on vacation if you can afford it, or are savvy enough to churn credit cards for miles, etc. To me, it's not a game. It's: what are my values?
Am I going to spend $2000 a month on organic, locally grown, grassfed groceries? If I can afford it, yes, if not, no. (Not really, but I'm illustrating a point).
Am I going to spend a few months looking for *just* the right used compact car when my other car gets totaled, or am I going to just go out and pay cash for a Civic and be done with it? The question is, which can I afford?
Am I going to plan my next vacation to be full-family affair at a nice resort in Hawaii, or am I going to Air-BNB it somewhere in driving distance. Well, does it matter? What if I can afford both?
Yes, as a mid-40s woman who is not into jewelry - I sort of agree that I wish I had the wherewithal to realize how dumb society's engagement ring expectations are. (The ring still makes me smile, even though I rarely wear it). But while we are rewriting history, let's just start with teaching me to cook at 22 instead of 32 (so I didn't spend hundreds a month on eating out over a decade), and let's just say I bought a house in 1997 (or even 2010) instead of 2004.
Despite my personal thoughts on jewelry and societal expectations, I still have plenty of friends with nice rings that they love. And it's okay that they like jewelry. Some of them are into clothing. Some have kick-ass camping gear. Some of them pride themselves in a nice home (whether it be designer homes or eclectic stuff from the thrift store).
As I look at the total net worth of these two at this age, you know what? They can afford the damn ring. When I got married in 1996 I had *just* paid off my college loans. I did not want a fancy wedding. I don't like being the center of attention, and I did not want to pay for it. No matter, my fiance wanted a big party and he paid for it. $10k. No debt, it was probably 10% of his net worth at the time.
Choosing to spend money on *one thing* does not mean they are going to go all crazy. Sometimes people do, but often they don't.
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It's a lot if money but I did it too. Bought my wife's ring at costco for $4500. Just glad it's still on her finger after 13 years!
Many blessings to you and your future wife!
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While I agree with Iris Lily about quality issues, big v. smaller stones, etc., I think that misses the point. My husband used to work for the GIA. I find rings like the one the OP's fiancée wants kind of ugly--all those crappy tiny stones are cheap looking.
But to her, it is beautiful and meaningful and that is what matters. Joan Rivers used to have a funny routine making the case that the size of the stone is the only important factor, not the cut, clarity or color because she didn't hang out with jewlers' wives. People like different things and that is OK.
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In another life I worked in the jewelry department of a department store. To only have 4 prongs on a 1ct. diamond would be a no-go for me. You do not want to skimp on the setting if you are springing for a 1ct stone! I would not get the one you linked to, but go to a jeweler in your area and look at similar rings with better, sturdier settings with at least 6 prongs. Mine is just a 1/4 ct. stone, and has either 6 or 8 prongs. If you have 4 prongs, one gets snagged, you lose your diamond and it is GONE. I got mine from a private jeweler, even though I worked in the jewelry dept. of that department store. When you are looking at a piece of jewelry your wife will wear daily, you want something that is made well, even if it costs a little more.
Other things to think about in a ring- how much does it stick up? WIll it get caught in everything? Are the prongs snaggy? SOme are smoother than others.
You asked more about the price. You can afford it, so my vote goes to yes. If you could not afford it, I'd say no. If it was a recurring expense, I'd say no. Happy shopping!
+1 very helpful, if I wanted an engagement ring this info is super helpful! Hope the OP is reading .......
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I ended up getting the ring set. It was painful to plunk down the quiche, but she loves the ring and seems to get genuine happiness from it on a daily basis. The purchase ended up covering my Chase Sapphire Reserve 100k bonus worth $1,500 in travel money so that helped lessen the sting.
Thanks for all the helpful replies. To those who said this was the wrong place to post a question like this, I understand your point. However, I wanted to hear all the skeptical reasons why I shouldn't buy the ring to make sure that I didn't miss anything important myself.
As it turns out, since purchasing the ring things have gone well for us from a financial standpoint. I started a side-hustle where I net $4,500 per client, so even though I recognize this is not a logical way to think about money, in this one instance the $4,700 I spent on the ring now seems smaller in the scheme of things. Since I last posted, my fiance got a nice raise/equity refresher and I secured a couple internships this summer where I'll gross ~$40,000. This is all a longwinded way of saying I have sufficiently come to terms with this thoroughly Unmustachian purchase.
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$5k is not that much for a quality setting and stone. My ring is custom platinum setting w/ moissanite (no diamond) and I think we paid $4500. I love the ring and will wear it daily for 40+ years. I actually went looking at diamonds at first and sticker shocked as most were around $10k.
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I say buy it. You both have good salaries, even higher salary potential, and a decent amount of savings. Plus you don't even have to pay for a wedding!
My SO and I got even more expensive rings (both top of the line unmustacian purchases) and made less and had less in savings at that time. We both knew we aren't party people and didn't want a wedding, and had a modest honeymoon. In the end, we got the rings, honeymoon, and wedding we wanted and spent a lot less than anyone else we knew, and did not go into debt to pay for any of it. While a fancy ring is expensive and many would say "materialistic", it is something you wear every single day and if you appreciate fine jewelry you don't get tired of admiring it. Plus you never get tired of others admiring it either.
I think it would be silly to spend $2500, still a big purchase, on a ring you aren't even sure if she would like. Given your financial picture, I do not see it being an issue to spend more for the rings she really wants.
I know SO many women who buy themselves "upgrade" rings for anniversaries because they didn't like the original ring they had when they got married. And of course the old rings lay around in the sock drawer because you can't get rid of the ring you got married in (memories!).
Do it right, only buy one ring, and make it a good one
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I am glad you bought it :) You have your whole married lives to be frugal.
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Congrats on your engagement!!!
I got my ring at Costco 15 years ago and love it. It's a solitaire on a platinum band and the quality is excellent. And.... it survived a bout in the washing machine! I forgot I put it in my pocket when washing dishes and the garment went in the wash. The ring came out good as new. Talk about relief! Platinum is much stronger than gold and the Costco settings are generally very sturdy. I worked for years at a jewelry store and you can't beat the quality and price at Costco.
I think you were wise to get the ring she wanted. Having gotten my gorgeous ring, I have never even considered any other jewelry purchases and probably won't buy anything else ever. It's a lifetime investment and I have no need for any other trinkets so in the long run I think it pays off.