Author Topic: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?  (Read 1701 times)

ChpBstrd

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What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« on: January 30, 2023, 03:28:12 PM »
Problem:
The floors in my 1940's 1300sf shack are very cold, contributing to draftiness and unpleasant barefoot walking. I've read that an uninsulated ventilated crawlspace like mine contributes to only about 10% of a house's heat loss, but I suspect the cost is higher for air conditioning (warmth under the house moving upward) and I live in warm, humid climate where I use AC about 5 months out of the year. I have not installed fiberglass between the floor joists because of concerns about mold growing on the bottoms of the joists*. There is already a dusting of fungus growing on them, although that may be from before I installed a ground barrier. 

Financial Feasibility:
If I'm only losing about 10% of my heating/cooling through the floor, as reputable sources suggest, I cannot justify spending a lot of money or effort on insulating it. My current 12-month electric bill is $1773, and if we assume 54% of that is my 14 SEER heat pump**, we arrive at (957 x .10=) only about $95 worth of energy escaping through the floor annually. I tend to think a 6 year payback period is acceptable for DIY insulation projects, so if I could save $80/year, that would only allow me to spend (80 x 6=) $480. I might be willing to spend more for two reasons: (1) more comfortable floor, and (2) if the solution could also inhibit fungal growth on the exposed wood in my crawl space.

*If you just put fiberglass between joists, it leaves the bottom of the joists exposed to crawl space air. When AC cools the floor the joists also get cool and attract condensation where they protrude past the insulation. In my area, 80-95% humidity can occur for weeks at a time. I already have had a bit of fungal growth on wood under the house, so conditions seem right for a bad outcome if I install fiberglass.
**https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/homes.php

Product:
Product Info: https://www.reflectixinc.com/applications/diy/crawl-space/
Price, ~$0.52/sf: https://www.lowes.com/search?searchTerm=reflectix

Rationale:
This product staples to the bottom of floor joists. This seems better than stuffing insulation between the joists because the bottoms of the joists are insulated rather than being exposed. The product could also offer a vapor barrier, which fiberglass cannot do. Finally, it looks very easy to install. At a cost of about $0.53/sf, I could insulate all the floors in my house to R-16 for about (1300 x 0.53=) $689 plus tax.

Skepticism:
Can one really get R-16 out of a layer of mirror-finish bubble wrap, when it takes about 4 inches of fiberglass to achieve the same result? Presumably, they can't outright lie and sell their product at Lowes, but this claim still seems counterintuitive.

Second, the math works out to a longer-than-acceptable payback period. An outlay of over $700 to earn back $80/year (optimistic estimate) puts the payback at 8.75 years. Using a DCF method with a 5.5% discount rate, the project doesn't break even for 12 years.

Specific Ask:
What am I missing in this analysis? Which assumptions are way out of range? Would you take on this project?

bacchi

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2023, 04:53:24 PM »
R value is about conductive heat* and radiant barriers are about reflective heat. Giving an R value to this product is crap.

Most of the heat loss from the floor would be conductive or convection (holes).**

It's probably more effective to install 1" rigid foam on the underside of the joists.

https://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights-newsletters/bsi-115-crawlspaces-either-or-out


* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-value_(insulation)
** https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Radiant_heat

Paper Chaser

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2023, 06:22:52 PM »
Letting moist/humid air into your crawlspace in the first place puts you at a disadvantage. Current thinking is that it's much better to seal and insulate the perimeter of your crawlspace, keeping that air out in the first place. It's known as encapsulation, and can easily be DIY'able in many cases.

There are two basic components:
1) Thick, sheet plastic vapor barrier across the floor with taped seams. This prevents soil gas and moisture from entering your crawlspace through the soil underneath your house. 6 mil vapor barrier can be found in a bunch of different sizes at any home store for less than $0.10/sqft.

2) Rigid foam panels along the exterior to air seal and insulate. Ideally, you'd do the whole crawlspace wall, but that might blow your budget. The most critical parts are sealing up the vents, and the joist bays which are currently uninsulated. These areas above grade will have the most heat transfer and therefore most bang for your buck. 2" thick XPS rigid foam board is ~ $40/sheet. If your joist bays are roughly 10" tall x 16" wide, you'd get 27 small filler panels out of a big sheet (1 per joist bay).

*You may need a dehumidifier as well, or a way to utilize any ducting in the crawlspace to help keep that area from getting too humid/musty once it's more sealed up.

snic

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2023, 07:22:37 PM »
Read up on that Reflectix stuff - as someone said above, it's very misleading to assign it an R value. If it were real, then this magic stuff would be used everywhere instead of bulkier forms of insulation like fiberglass, spray foam, and blown-in. But it's not.

GilesMM

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2023, 07:26:45 PM »
 I worry about insulation trapping moisture and rotting out wood in the crawl space.  Is that a potential issue?

sonofsven

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2023, 06:58:21 AM »
I don't think much of it. Their claim of R16 is with an air space of 9.5", which means 2x10 joists.
Your rationale for not using standard unfaced batts seems dubious. Unless you have serious water intrusion issues in your crawlspace I would not be overly concerned using fiberglass.
The construction industry is riddled with specious claims and faulty products; the consumer is basically the guinea pig and often left holding the bag when the product fails or underperforms.
Rigid could work but the installation is much more difficult in a crawlspace, and it would be more expensive for the product as well.
Whatever you do, seal up any penetrations with spray foam first from the underside.
The really bad mold situations I have seen have been caused by a continuous ingress of water into a non or poorly ventilated space, like from a leak.
I wiil say that my experience is in a very wet climate, but one that rarely needs AC.


ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2023, 09:05:27 AM »
R value is about conductive heat* and radiant barriers are about reflective heat. Giving an R value to this product is crap.

Most of the heat loss from the floor would be conductive or convection (holes).**

It's probably more effective to install 1" rigid foam on the underside of the joists.

https://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights-newsletters/bsi-115-crawlspaces-either-or-out

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-value_(insulation)
** https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Radiant_heat

Letting moist/humid air into your crawlspace in the first place puts you at a disadvantage. Current thinking is that it's much better to seal and insulate the perimeter of your crawlspace, keeping that air out in the first place. It's known as encapsulation, and can easily be DIY'able in many cases.

There are two basic components:
1) Thick, sheet plastic vapor barrier across the floor with taped seams. This prevents soil gas and moisture from entering your crawlspace through the soil underneath your house. 6 mil vapor barrier can be found in a bunch of different sizes at any home store for less than $0.10/sqft.

2) Rigid foam panels along the exterior to air seal and insulate. Ideally, you'd do the whole crawlspace wall, but that might blow your budget. The most critical parts are sealing up the vents, and the joist bays which are currently uninsulated. These areas above grade will have the most heat transfer and therefore most bang for your buck. 2" thick XPS rigid foam board is ~ $40/sheet. If your joist bays are roughly 10" tall x 16" wide, you'd get 27 small filler panels out of a big sheet (1 per joist bay).

*You may need a dehumidifier as well, or a way to utilize any ducting in the crawlspace to help keep that area from getting too humid/musty once it's more sealed up.

Sounds like I was right to be skeptical that R-16 could be achieved in half an inch. How are these people lawsuit-proof?

The problem I have with today's consensus "best practices" is that they also describe an excellent way to spend $15,000 to turn a crawlspace into a more pleasant place for the spiders to hang out.

The idea of venting crawl space air into the house, no matter how much I've cleaned it up, simply does not appeal. I suppose if you get rats you'd know it from the smell?

The recommendation to run a mechanical dehumidifier all the time seems like a good way to add $100/mo to the electric bill, while replacing a $400 appliance every few years (follow up questions: How do you know when it fails? What moisture damage occurs before you figure out it needs replacing?).

With any of these recommendations, it's far more economical to just pay the extra $100/year in HVAC expenses and leave the crawl space vented/uninsulated. 

« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 09:11:02 AM by ChpBstrd »

Paper Chaser

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2023, 10:54:33 AM »
Letting moist/humid air into your crawlspace in the first place puts you at a disadvantage. Current thinking is that it's much better to seal and insulate the perimeter of your crawlspace, keeping that air out in the first place. It's known as encapsulation, and can easily be DIY'able in many cases.

There are two basic components:
1) Thick, sheet plastic vapor barrier across the floor with taped seams. This prevents soil gas and moisture from entering your crawlspace through the soil underneath your house. 6 mil vapor barrier can be found in a bunch of different sizes at any home store for less than $0.10/sqft.

2) Rigid foam panels along the exterior to air seal and insulate. Ideally, you'd do the whole crawlspace wall, but that might blow your budget. The most critical parts are sealing up the vents, and the joist bays which are currently uninsulated. These areas above grade will have the most heat transfer and therefore most bang for your buck. 2" thick XPS rigid foam board is ~ $40/sheet. If your joist bays are roughly 10" tall x 16" wide, you'd get 27 small filler panels out of a big sheet (1 per joist bay).

*You may need a dehumidifier as well, or a way to utilize any ducting in the crawlspace to help keep that area from getting too humid/musty once it's more sealed up.


The idea of venting crawl space air into the house, no matter how much I've cleaned it up, simply does not appeal. I suppose if you get rats you'd know it from the smell?

You're already doing this right now though. The stack effect brings things from the crawlspace into your home no matter what. Especially if there's any ductwork or other penetrations between your living space above and the crawlspace below. Subflooring has joints that aren't sealed. Dust, soil gases, mold, humidity, musty smells, etc are exchanged between the two spaces. That fungal growth you're seeing in the crawlspace is likely present in your living area to some degree.

Crawlspaces tend to stay relatively temperate compared to outdoor air temps. It's not like your crawlspace is 30F while your living space right above it is 70F. It's common to run exposed copper plumbing through vented crawlspaces in places that go weeks or months at a time below freezing, and these pipes rarely burst because the temp in the crawlspace rarely gets low enough to cause any damage if the space above is conditioned. The crawlspace's moderate temps are not only due to conduction through your floors. Convection plays a big part of it. By properly sealing up and insulating the exterior of the crawl space, you ensure that the bad stuff stays outside of your building envelope rather than entering your living space.

The recommendation to run a mechanical dehumidifier all the time seems like a good way to add $100/mo to the electric bill, while replacing a $400 appliance every few years (follow up questions: How do you know when it fails? What moisture damage occurs before you figure out it needs replacing?).

If there's any ductwork in the crawlspace, it's common to open some of that into the crawlspace rather than installing a separate dehumidifier. It would be wise to consider the sizing of the HVAC units before doing this however, as you'd be increasing the envelope of the conditioned space.

And really, the crawl space should only be as humid as the interior of your house at that point because it would be fully sealed from the exterior, while also having some amount of air exchange with your living space. If the dehumidifier is running constantly where it's adding $100/mo to your bill, then that indicates a larger issue where the crawl is likely not sealed off properly.


With any of these recommendations, it's far more economical to just pay the extra $100/year in HVAC expenses and leave the crawl space vented/uninsulated.

If you see it purely from a financial perspective, then having it professionally done for thousands of dollars is likely not going to pay off. But DIY-ing the project to bring costs down can make a very large difference in the ROI. Rough cost estimates for a 1300 sqft crawlspace would probably be:
$120-$150 in vapor barrier ($0.10/sqft, but it's typically cheaper with larger rolls)
$50 in tape/supplies
$120-200 in rigid foam panels (27 joist bays per sheet with a bit leftover for smaller areas, plus continuous strips along the rim joists parallel to the floor joists).

Depending on specifics of your design/layout you could probably have your crawl sealed up and insulated for under $400 (below your $480 budget listed in the OP).
And there are non-financial benefits as well (things like more comfortable floors, and inhibiting fungal growth which you indicated was a major motivation for this project anyway).



Sibley

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2023, 12:35:12 PM »
The idea of venting crawl space air into the house, no matter how much I've cleaned it up, simply does not appeal. I suppose if you get rats you'd know it from the smell?

You already do. Rarely, I get a bit of water in my dirt crawl space. I know when this happens primarily because the water allows the mold in the soil to reactivate, which then filters up into the living space and my mold-induced asthma gets triggered.

I'm not encapsulating the crawlspace until I've fixed the water drainage problem which contributes to this. And fixing that will be expensive because I have to tear up a ton of concrete and install drainage. Until then, my floors are cold and when the conditions are just right I get water in the crawlspace.

lutorm

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2023, 03:02:35 PM »
Letting moist/humid air into your crawlspace in the first place puts you at a disadvantage. Current thinking is that it's much better to seal and insulate the perimeter of your crawlspace, keeping that air out in the first place. It's known as encapsulation, and can easily be DIY'able in many cases.

There are two basic components:
1) Thick, sheet plastic vapor barrier across the floor with taped seams. This prevents soil gas and moisture from entering your crawlspace through the soil underneath your house. 6 mil vapor barrier can be found in a bunch of different sizes at any home store for less than $0.10/sqft.

2) Rigid foam panels along the exterior to air seal and insulate. Ideally, you'd do the whole crawlspace wall, but that might blow your budget. The most critical parts are sealing up the vents, and the joist bays which are currently uninsulated. These areas above grade will have the most heat transfer and therefore most bang for your buck. 2" thick XPS rigid foam board is ~ $40/sheet. If your joist bays are roughly 10" tall x 16" wide, you'd get 27 small filler panels out of a big sheet (1 per joist bay).

*You may need a dehumidifier as well, or a way to utilize any ducting in the crawlspace to help keep that area from getting too humid/musty once it's more sealed up.
I agree with this. Keeping humidity in check is going to be important.

I've been learning more about insulation and moisture issues (now that we're planning on buying a home not in Hawaii) and it seems insulating the floors in old buildings often leads to moisture problems. Before, air would circulate in the crawl space up through the floor (and also often being heated by bottom part of the chimney (don't know if there's an English term for it) since houses were often heated with stoves or fireplaces, so the chimney was constantly warm. This kept the humidity down, When you insulate the floor, you prevent this air circulation and moisture coming up through the ground, or humid air entering through vents, then gets stuck and you risk ending up with rot in the floor joists.

Jon Bon

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2023, 06:24:21 AM »
Spray foam all the things!

Its expensive and a pain in the ass but nothing is better for R-value. It provides an air tight seal that other products cannot duplicate, and that further makes it a more efficient product. No idea if it would work for your situation, but I love foam.

But yeah as other have said those claims of R-** are complete BS.

Dicey

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2023, 02:03:38 PM »
Spray foam all the things!

Its expensive and a pain in the ass but nothing is better for R-value. It provides an air tight seal that other products cannot duplicate, and that further makes it a more efficient product. No idea if it would work for your situation, but I love foam.

But yeah as other have said those claims of R-** are complete BS.
I keep trying to get DH to use it, but he resists. It doesn't move with the house, so eventually cracks. In our climate (and in most), the wood 2x4s expand and contract a LOT and the foam eventually fails. Plus he says that shit is bad for the environment. Sigh. I'm guessin' I'm never gettin' no spray foam, even if it does come in cool colors.

index

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2023, 09:06:57 AM »
The Reflectix is BS an doesn't work for the crawlspace. I used it :-(. I finally got the crawl encapsulated with closed cell foam and solved our issues. Just note the floors will still be cold unless you heat the insulated crawl space.

AnotherEngineer

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Re: What do you think about Reflectix crawl space floor insulation?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2023, 12:53:06 PM »
https://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights-newsletters/bsi-115-crawlspaces-either-or-out


I came here to post this link and encourage you to look at the rest of their page. It is all from a southern perspective. 

I now live in warm, moist North Carolina and plan on DIY encapsulating my crawlspace and possibly putting in a dehumidifier to deal with mold, bugs, and moisture first and efficiency second.

I DYI sealed up my Alaska crawlspace and put R-45 batts on the walls as they main issue was conduction with cold soil in cold, dry conditions.