Input regarding our daughter . . .

[Bernard]

My wife and I live in Southern California. I discovered MMM and Fire "by accident" about 2 years ago and it has completely changed the way I view money and everything associated with it. Luckily, my wonderful wife is on board with this.

My wife's daughter -- her dad surprisingly died at age 36 when she was only 3 -- will turn 30 next month. She is really into environment, healthy living, animals, etc.) and graduated from a California State university with majors in Environmental Communications and Political Science. A few months after graduation she moved to Asheville, NC, to volunteer at a major health clinic, eventually got hired as an employee, a year or so later promoted to be in charge of their animal farm. She then changed jobs and worked for an no-kill animal rescue. Roughly a year (?) later she quit that job to pursue her lifelong passion of dance (she started ballet as a child). She works at a dance studio and makes some extra money in arts and crafts. While I don't know her exact income, it can't be much more than $1,200 per month take-home from the dance studio and perhaps a few hundred bucks from the side gig.

She rents a 3-bedroom house in Asheville. Rent is about $1,600 and she has two roommates to help with the rent. As you may imagine, she is struggling financially. About a year ago she got roughly $17,5K from her late dad's life insurance policy, and she spent probably $9K on her teeth, $7K on Invisalign alone. She just told me that's she's paying it off at $300 per month, for another 18 months. Some of the money went to help her transitioning from her previous job. Long story short: it's all gone. She has no savings and still drives the 2003 Scion we bought her before she moved to North Carolina. Must have about 150K on the clock now, if not more.

Our daughter has a 3 year-old Carolina dog, her "baby." It's pretty, and pretty big.  Not long ago, the dog broke one of her K9 teeth, and it got infected. Options are to extract the teeth or, as the vet suggested, to do a root canal and then get a crown to the tune of $2,5K. Since she has insufficient credit, she asked us to co-sign a no-interest credit application for the procedure. She would pay it off in 2 years, at about $60 per month.

My wife and I have stellar credit. We could also just loan her the money, but since it's zero interest, I don't think we want to do that. In addition, we have really never gotten any money back from her for previous . . . expenses, like partial airline tickets and that sort.

So my question for you is 2 fold:

Part 1: what should we do regarding the dog's dentist issue?

Part 2: what would you suggest we can do to show our daughter the light when she visits us over the holidays? I'd love for her to make more money, save some money, get an emergency fund, etc.

Thank ya'll for your input!

[Fru-Gal]

Just give her the money, never co-sign anything. That would be crossing a new boundary of dependence. But make her work for it, as in, provide you with 3 estimates from 3 different veterinarians. And maybe before that, have her go to her friends in animal rescue and plead her case there. Having you as a resource allows her to be shielded from social reproach. But if she has to gofundme among friends, that's a different story.

However, the car sounds great. Mine is much older than that and at least 2x the miles. I have no concerns there.

[BECABECA]

I’ve had dogs all my life and they’ve been part of the family, but I wouldn’t consider doing a root canal on their teeth. It’s not that I can’t afford it, it’s that it’s totally unnecessary for a dog. The vet recommending that she get parents to co-sign on such an expensive elective procedure feels really off. They should have just extracted the infected tooth with no other option suggested.

Also, by suggesting a root canal, the dog is being put through prolonged pain while it is eating with a broken tooth with an exposed root. She really needs to go get a second vet’s opinion.

[Kris]

I agree the tooth should just be extracted.

And do not co-sign a loan. That has disaster written all over it. If she is adamant about the root canal (which seems like a very bad idea), lend her the money, if you can and want to. If you don't like the zero-interest part... then charge her interest. I actually think that is a good idea, anyway. Maybe it will show her that you guys aren't just a pot of money she can dip into when she needs it.

Somewhere along the line, she has not managed to connect the dots that how much she earns is related to how much she can spend.

Maybe you could just get her the Dave Ramsey book or something as her Christmas present.

[BlueHouse]

I’ve had dogs all my life and they’ve been part of the family, but I wouldn’t consider doing a root canal on their teeth. It’s not that I can’t afford it, it’s that it’s totally unnecessary for a dog. The vet recommending that she get parents to co-sign on such an expensive elective procedure feels really off. They should have just extracted the infected tooth with no other option suggested.

Also, by suggesting a root canal, the dog is being put through prolonged pain while it is eating with a broken tooth with an exposed root. She really needs to go get a second vet’s opinion.

Agree with tooth extraction. 
Also, do not cosign.  Many other things could then go wrong and with you in the middle of it, you'd then be the ones making a decision that could turn into life or death. 

[Tuskalusa]

I would give her money for the dog root canal. I would also tell her that she’s welcome to keep whatever isn’t needed for the root canal. I’m guessing the extraction route might be cheaper. Of maybe she finds a cheaper option. But then it’s up to her.

[BECABECA]

I would give her money for the dog root canal. I would also tell her that she’s welcome to keep whatever isn’t needed for the root canal. I’m guessing the extraction route might be cheaper. Of maybe she finds a cheaper option. But then it’s up to her.

Yes, extraction is an order of magnitude cheaper. Like $200 vs $2000

[Laura33]

What does your wife want to say or do? 

Has your stepdaughter asked for your advice?

This is a potentially fraught situation on a number of levels.  As the stepdad, you should be very, very, very careful about jumping in to "fix" her unless it is very clear both that your wife is leading the charge and that your stepdaughter is open to advice.* 

If the answer to either question is no, then decide whether you want to pay $200 to get the tooth pulled out of kindness to the dog, and otherwise stay out of it, refuse to lend or give her additional money (and stick to it), and let her find her own way.  And make it eminently clear that you love her through all of it, and that you trust her to figure it all out.

*In particular, her dad's death at an early age may have affected both her view on the value of saving for the future and your wife's parenting approach.  I suspect this is much more of a multi-layered emotional issue than a financial one, and so all the financial advice in the world, and all the lectures about the moral value of thrift, are at best going to be completely ignored, and at worst may well cause a serious rift.

[Bernard]

What does your wife want to say or do? 

Has your stepdaughter asked for your advice?

This is a potentially fraught situation on a number of levels.  As the stepdad, you should be very, very, very careful about jumping in to "fix" her unless it is very clear both that your wife is leading the charge and that your stepdaughter is open to advice.* 

If the answer to either question is no, then decide whether you want to pay $200 to get the tooth pulled out of kindness to the dog, and otherwise stay out of it, refuse to lend or give her additional money (and stick to it), and let her find her own way.  And make it eminently clear that you love her through all of it, and that you trust her to figure it all out.

*In particular, her dad's death at an early age may have affected both her view on the value of saving for the future and your wife's parenting approach.  I suspect this is much more of a multi-layered emotional issue than a financial one, and so all the financial advice in the world, and all the lectures about the moral value of thrift, are at best going to be completely ignored, and at worst may well cause a serious rift.

She contacted her mom, asked if we would be so kind to co-sign, as her credit isn't good enough. I spoke with her today and suggested to extract the tooth, which is what I would do in that situation if it was my dog, as I feel the dog will be perfectly fine with 3 K9 teeth. It's not like the dog has to hunt for a living. But the veterinarian told our daughter that pulling a K9 tooth at a 3 year-old dog *could* lead to complications later on. I may be wrong, but that reminds me of the saying "never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

In any case, I know her since she was a young 13 and I love her very much. I want to help her, but ultimately I cannot tell a 29-year-old what to do. I can only give my unsolicited advice and she may consider it, or not.

[Cassie]

We have had young dogs lose teeth and it’s no big deal. Even our money hungry vet never suggested a root canal. I wouldn’t bail her out otherwise because at 29 she should grow up. I would pay to have the dog’s tooth pulled.

[affordablehousing]

Easy to say from where I sit with a young kid, but looking at the experience of a younger sister and younger sister in law, as for teaching the bigger lesson of self-reliance and financial planning, the best you can do is to teach it as you go along life, suggest some resources, and hope that the biggest lesson comes from your child's friends "adulting" and convincing her to pursue more responsibility. This is beginning to happen in our family, with siblings seeing friends marry, buy houses, get professional jobs, etc. They haven't made any compromises yet, but I can see that the pressures are there, grinding quietly, like the earth's crust mounting for an earthquake event like marriage, moving, etc.

[mozar]

It sucks that your daughter is using her parents like an emergency account. Try to get your wife to agree to only giving 200 for a tooth extraction. The way for her to get better with money is for her parents to stop enabling her to make poor financial choices. The sooner she gets cut off the better.

[charis]

Offer to pay for am extraction or $200 toward whatever procedure she wants. I had to ask my parents to cosign a small educational (professional board related) loan after I had already graduated and had a well paying job in hand. I hadn't asked them for/taken a dime of my pricey tuition or living expenses and had worked throughout. I also didn't ask for money when my cat needed surgery even though I know they would have given it immediately.

They reluctantly agreed to cosign bc I was almost broke for three months until my job started and had no credit history yet. I paid it off very early, within 6 months (after my credit card bill).

This is an example of not enabling, but helping a responsible person in a pinch. This is not your situation.

[reeshau]

Given that your daughter is into environmentalism, I wonder if she would respond better to the sustainability / dematerialization / minimalist flavor of FI than focusing purely on the hardcore math.  I just listened to a raucous What's Up Next podcast titled "Can Wealth Be Taught?"  While it wasn't my favorite episode, (as there were a lot of unsubstantiated figures thrown around that I have a strong hankering to fact check) Vicky Robin was in it, and made some great arguments for working for "enough," rather than wealth.  (She joked about wanting to write a book titled:  "I will teach you to be poor.")  So, whether it's that interview, Your Money or Your Life, or just exposing your daughter to Vicky's writing would be a good bridge to the more basic financial skills.

[Frankies Girl]

Could also check out this book, written by a member here...

https://www.amazon.com/Rising-Strategies-Broke-At-Risk-Those-ebook/dp/B01EXOK814/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Rising%3A+Strategies+for+the+Broke%2C+the+At-Risk%2C+and+Those&qid=1574761964&s=books&sr=1-1

Rising: Strategies for the Broke, the At-Risk, and Those Who Love Them



But absolutely no way would I do a 2K crown for an animal... that's just nuts and the vet/dentist is taking advantage and she should find another vet. That is greedy and manipulative.

[Metalcat]

I've had rescue dogs my entire life with various levels of toothlessness down to being completely toothless, none have suffered any long term consequences.

Did the vet offer any clear explanation as to what these long term consequences could be?
Also, root canals and crowns have a life span and can fail over time, I'm guessing the vet didn't explain that either.

[KBecks]

Clearly, extract the dog's tooth.

Your daughter cannot afford her dog, but that is her own lesson to figure out.  Your message back to her is, it's your dog, honey.

For your info only -- if *she* needed a root canal, *then* you could consider a gift.  If *she* had a painful or life-threatening concern, of course you would help out.  Emergency money from relatives is for people, not pets.

Your daughter is choosing to live close to the wire. She owns the consequences of her choices.


Feed her a good meal over the holidays, maybe buy her a new pair of shoes or a new coat, and shut up and smile.  Unless she asks you for advice, you are likely wasting your breath.

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving and enjoy your daughter's company.

Would she consider Dave Ramsey's program?  That might be useful, but this is your step-daughter.  How close is your relationship?

You could talk about the MMM forum online as a place where a bunch of hippies live uber-cheap.  Just delete this thread first. (We'll educate her for you.... just kidding, sort of!)  :)

Good luck!  Happy Holidays!

[PoutineLover]

Extract. It'll take away the pain and the dog will be fine.
Fancy dental procedures for dogs are for people who have more money than they need.

[BlueHouse]

I didn't see anything in the OP posts that indicate the daughter is doing anything other than living her life the way she wants to.  She hasn't chosen to save for early retirement.  She has chosen to work in low-paying fields that give her a lot of pleasure and to adopt a dog to enrich her life.  It sounds to me as if she's living the life she wants with no terrible consequences, so I'm not sure why some of these responses make it sound as if she's completely irresponsible. 

The worst thing from my perspective is that she got really crappy advice from the vet. 

Yeah, it would be nice if everyone had an emergency fund, but this daughter has found a way to live within her limited means except for a medical issue with a pet.  She just needs to be realistic about the costs she can take for the pet.  Maybe help her find an animal organization that will help with emergency medical costs (and they'll be sure to tell her that root canal (and a Crown????) is NOT a necessity)

I would definitely not use a beloved pet's medical condition to push a frugal lifestyle on anyone.

[KBecks]

Bluehouse, not saving for retirement has terrible consequences.  At least, IMO.

She's 30 and has missed some great years for compounding.  It's time to grow up.  Asking mom and dad to co-sign for a loan at age 30 is wrong and embarrassing. She needs to learn to plan for the future.

[BlueHouse]

Bluehouse, not saving for retirement has terrible consequences.  At least, IMO.

She's 30 and has missed some great years for compounding.  It's time to grow up.  Asking mom and dad to co-sign for a loan at age 30 is wrong and embarrassing. She needs to learn to plan for the future.

I agree and that's why we're here.  But how many of us would give this unsolicited advice at, say, a dinner party?   

[Dicey]

This adult woman sounds like a self-styled "free spirit", which is fine, but nothing says you have to support her and her choices. The life support she's received so far (college, car, life insurance, etc.) has all been spent in pursuit of whatever she wants with no thought for the future. Hell, who wouldn't want to live a completely self-indulgent lifestyle? The fact that she's environmentally conscious doesn't make her lifestyle any less so.

Learning how to make hard decisions is part of what makes someone an adult. Enabling her so she doesn't need to develop does nobody any good in the long run, even her dog. I'm sorry you're in this position.

I know a couple who were in a similar situation, but only one of them really knew how much life support the mom was giving her daughter. When mom died unexpectedly, stepdad dad was left with far less money than he thought he had. Life support to the adult stepdaughter ended. She's now a total train wreck without mommy's aid. He had to sell the house and move to a lower COLA to survive, leaving the life he knew and all their friends behind. The daughter has not one shred of gratitude. She's just pissed that the money tree is gone.

It would be a shame if the same thing happened to you.
.

[Cpa Cat]

Why on Earth would a dog need a crown? We preserve human teeth with root canals and crowns for vanity, not because we physically need all of our teeth to eat.

Dogs don't even use their canines to chew dog food.

I once had a vet who recommended my 15 year old cat get a kidney transplant. Which involves spending tens of thousand of dollars to harvest a kidney from another cat and implanting it in your cat, and at the time came with a 45% failure rate under ideal conditions. I said "My cat is old. Why would I do that? That sounds really invasive and expensive, not to mention possibly unethical." The vet told me that if I didn't love my cat enough to give it a kidney transplant, maybe I should give it to the pound, so that someone who would love it could adopt it. I wondered, aloud, if I had entered the Twilight Zone.

And then I found a new vet.

Some vets serve a high-end clientele who are willing to spend a lot of money on their pets, and so their default position is to start at the highest priced treatment and present that treatment as though it's the best and most successful treatment, without offering alternatives.

At the time (and probably currently), the more common and successful treatment for a cat with kidney disease was Sub-Q fluids and a special diet, administered at home and not by the vet. This treatment would have virtually no profit margin for the vet and was a fraction of the price. Likewise, the most common and successful treatment for a pet's rotten tooth is to simply extract it for marginal cost.

[BlueHouse]

I know a couple who were in a similar situation, but only one of them really knew how much life support the mom was giving her daughter.
.

Good point.  Parents often aren't on the same page about giving life support to adult children.  Make sure you know if there are any "small stipends" going out to help the daughter out. 

[Sibley]

Why on Earth would a dog need a crown? We preserve human teeth with root canals and crowns for vanity, not because we physically need all of our teeth to eat.

Dogs don't even use their canines to chew dog food.

I once had a vet who recommended my 15 year old cat get a kidney transplant. Which involves spending tens of thousand of dollars to harvest a kidney from another cat and implanting it in your cat, and at the time came with a 45% failure rate under ideal conditions. I said "My cat is old. Why would I do that? That sounds really invasive and expensive, not to mention possibly unethical." The vet told me that if I didn't love my cat enough to give it a kidney transplant, maybe I should give it to the pound, so that someone who would love it could adopt it. I wondered, aloud, if I had entered the Twilight Zone.

And then I found a new vet.

Some vets serve a high-end clientele who are willing to spend a lot of money on their pets, and so their default position is to start at the highest priced treatment and present that treatment as though it's the best and most successful treatment, without offering alternatives.

At the time (and probably currently), the more common and successful treatment for a cat with kidney disease was Sub-Q fluids and a special diet, administered at home and not by the vet. This treatment would have virtually no profit margin for the vet and was a fraction of the price. Likewise, the most common and successful treatment for a pet's rotten tooth is to simply extract it for marginal cost.

That was an unexpected benefit when I moved to my current location. I have a strong philosophy regarding animal care, and in HCOL areas the vet practices tend to not align with my philosophy. I moved to a lower COL, and as a result the vet practices are much more grounded in reality and align better with my philosophy. It's not perfect, but it was so much easier when Sibley died that the vet wasn't giving me a guilt trip that I wasn't spending gobs of money trying to prolong the inevitable.

And yes, fluids and diet at home are still standard care for kidney disease.

[merince]

I vote extract. Dogs use their canines to tear toys and play tug-o-war. Having a cap on those is a recipe for repeat business for the vet. The cap will keep falling off and getting lost. The dog will have to be put under every single time to have it re-attached which is not good health-wise. Just extract and be done.

[Laura33]

What does your wife want to say or do? 

Has your stepdaughter asked for your advice?

This is a potentially fraught situation on a number of levels.  As the stepdad, you should be very, very, very careful about jumping in to "fix" her unless it is very clear both that your wife is leading the charge and that your stepdaughter is open to advice.* 

If the answer to either question is no, then decide whether you want to pay $200 to get the tooth pulled out of kindness to the dog, and otherwise stay out of it, refuse to lend or give her additional money (and stick to it), and let her find her own way.  And make it eminently clear that you love her through all of it, and that you trust her to figure it all out.

*In particular, her dad's death at an early age may have affected both her view on the value of saving for the future and your wife's parenting approach.  I suspect this is much more of a multi-layered emotional issue than a financial one, and so all the financial advice in the world, and all the lectures about the moral value of thrift, are at best going to be completely ignored, and at worst may well cause a serious rift.

She contacted her mom, asked if we would be so kind to co-sign, as her credit isn't good enough. I spoke with her today and suggested to extract the tooth, which is what I would do in that situation if it was my dog, as I feel the dog will be perfectly fine with 3 K9 teeth. It's not like the dog has to hunt for a living. But the veterinarian told our daughter that pulling a K9 tooth at a 3 year-old dog *could* lead to complications later on. I may be wrong, but that reminds me of the saying "never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

In any case, I know her since she was a young 13 and I love her very much. I want to help her, but ultimately I cannot tell a 29-year-old what to do. I can only give my unsolicited advice and she may consider it, or not.

This is what I am asking you to please not do.  At best, unsolicited advice is ignored -- blown off, seen as evidence of how the giver "just doesn't get it," is out of touch with [insert whatever group stepdaughter identifies with], etc.  At worst, giving unsolicited advice makes it less likely stepdaughter will come to you when she finally is ready to hear it -- because at that point, asking you what to do will require her to admit to herself and you that she was wrong before, and made stupid decisions, and needs stepdad's help to come and save her.*  There is not one single emotionally-healthy kid I know who would be willing to do that!  Instead, she will shut you out, double down on her choices, and turn to friends or other relatives for advice.  And those folks will most definitely not be giving advice of the MMM variety. 

When a kid is establishing her independence and her place in the world, unsolicited advice says "I don't trust you to get it right."  It says "I don't think you are ready to make adult decisions," and "I don't think you have good judgment."  That is the last thing a kid needs to hear -- particularly when they are making questionable decisions.  At some point, you need to trust that she's smart and you raised her right and she'll figure her way through it on her own.  After all, you did -- and I'm sure you made your own mistakes along the way.  Mistakes don't mean we're stupid or incapable; that's just how we learn.

The most effective way to get a kid to come to you for advice is to treat her like she doesn't need it.  (Ask me how I know.)  Just send the vibes that say you love her and accept her as she is, right now, and that you know she'll figure it out, and you're there if she ever wants to talk.  No lectures.  No tones that say "I completely disapprove of your choice but am trying to hide it but not really because I actually want you to know I disapprove but I want plausible deniability to keep the peace."  That makes you a "safe" place for her -- she can be open about her fears and insecurities and mistakes without having to worry about "I told you sos" and disapproval.  Only after she fees comfortable being totally open with you, without fear of criticism, will her head be in a place where she can actually hear and consider what you have to say.

Tl;dr:  Asking for money does not justify responding with unsolicited advice.  If you don't want to provide the money, just say no, and leave it at that.

*Example:  my mom didn't tell her mom she and my dad were divorced for 5 years, when I spilled the beans that my dad was getting remarried.  Because my grandma had been so adamant that my dad wasn't good for my mom and didn't love her enough, and so when that turned out to be true, my mom couldn't bear letting my grandma know that she was right and my mom was wrong. 

[charis]

I know a couple who were in a similar situation, but only one of them really knew how much life support the mom was giving her daughter. When mom died unexpectedly, stepdad dad was left with far less money than he thought he had. Life support to the adult stepdaughter ended. She's now a total train wreck without mommy's aid. He had to sell the house and move to a lower COLA to survive, leaving the life he knew and all their friends behind. The daughter has not one shred of gratitude. She's just pissed that the money tree is gone.

I fear that this is my parents' and sibling's futures.  My parents are retired and are pouring out money to support my sibling (including cosigning a significant loan and paying off other debts).  This person is closer to 40 than 30 and my folks still think that things will miraculously turn around despite their decades of economic life support.  My mother wants to stop it (kind of - it's mostly empty talk) but my father will probably never stop the bail out.

[bacchi]

I vote extract. Dogs use their canines to tear toys and play tug-o-war. Having a cap on those is a recipe for repeat business for the vet. The cap will keep falling off and getting lost. The dog will have to be put under every single time to have it re-attached which is not good health-wise. Just extract and be done.

+1

A cap means more pain and more money. Extract it.

[rothwem]

Tl;dr:  Asking for money does not justify responding with unsolicited advice.  If you don't want to provide the money, just say no, and leave it at that.

I don't totally agree.  For my family, asking for money meant that I had to listen the advice.  I learned pretty quick that the way to avoid a lecture was to not ask for money. 

You could talk about the MMM forum online as a place where a bunch of hippies live uber-cheap.  Just delete this thread first. (We'll educate her for you.... just kidding, sort of!)  :)

She already lives in Asheville...its historically where liberal kids from rural NC go to escape their conservative parents so they can smoke weed and "do art".  Cost of living is pretty low (though creeping up from rich retirees), but wages are super depressed due to a lack of economy outside of tourism. 

[iris lily]

Why on Earth would a dog need a crown? We preserve human teeth with root canals and crowns for vanity, not because we physically need all of our teeth to eat.

Dogs don't even use their canines to chew dog food.

I once had a vet who recommended my 15 year old cat get a kidney transplant. Which involves spending tens of thousand of dollars to harvest a kidney from another cat and implanting it in your cat, and at the time came with a 45% failure rate under ideal conditions. I said "My cat is old. Why would I do that? That sounds really invasive and expensive, not to mention possibly unethical." The vet told me that if I didn't love my cat enough to give it a kidney transplant, maybe I should give it to the pound, so that someone who would love it could adopt it. I wondered, aloud, if I had entered the Twilight Zone.

And then I found a new vet.

Some vets serve a high-end clientele who are willing to spend a lot of money on their pets, and so their default position is to start at the highest priced treatment and present that treatment as though it's the best and most successful treatment, without offering alternatives.

At the time (and probably currently), the more common and successful treatment for a cat with kidney disease was Sub-Q fluids and a special diet, administered at home and not by the vet. This treatment would have virtually no profit margin for the vet and was a fraction of the price. Likewise, the most common and successful treatment for a pet's rotten tooth is to simply extract it for marginal cost.

That was an unexpected benefit when I moved to my current location. I have a strong philosophy regarding animal care, and in HCOL areas the vet practices tend to not align with my philosophy. I moved to a lower COL, and as a result the vet practices are much more grounded in reality and align better with my philosophy. It's not perfect, but it was so much easier when Sibley died that the vet wasn't giving me a guilt trip that I wasn't spending gobs of money trying to prolong the inevitable.

And yes, fluids and diet at home are still standard care for kidney disease.

I have been using the same veterinary office for 30 years even though about five years ago the old guys retired and young women took over. They are grounded in reality. They also know that I have plenty of money and I will go to a specialist when needed, so they might suggest expensive alternate choices at times.  Bit seldom do they because my dogs, bulldogs, die fairly early of things that are not fixable.

Here in St. Louis we have lots of board certified specialists  for the fancy stuff. I admit my car knows its way to the skin doctor as well as all the hell the way out in another county to a general veterinary practice that has all kinds of expertise with Bulldog  issues.

 Based on what little we know about the subject dog of this thread, there’s no way I’d have a root canal done.

I can’t imagine that my general veterinarian even knows how to do a root canal.

[Car Jack]

Your wife's daughter has chosen a path in life where what she does is more important than making enough money to support herself.  Clearly, a dog is a luxury for her that she can't afford.  With her connections, she should give up the dog to a no kill shelter so that someone who indeed can easily afford to care for the dog adopts it.

Back in the days where everyone farmed, pets were the Porsche of the day.  Having an animal that didn't earn its keep was a luxury and a sign that one had arrived.  Unfortunately, today, people take in pets who can't afford to even take care of themselves.

My recommendation:  No money.  If she wants to work in her dream job that pays nothing and keep a pet she can't afford, then she should figure out what to do and learn how to make the hard decisions.  Some people can't afford Porsches and some people can't afford dogs.

[iris lily]

I will add that I would definitely give money ASAP to keep the dog out of pain. That means tooth extraction.

The rest of it is not really important.

[six-car-habit]

 I suppose the obvious thing here is that her main source of income is pursuing her "passion" of dancing. And she gets paid to teach dance to students. But maybe doesn't make any money from actual performances where she is the lead / support dancing role [?].

  With her 2 other degrees, she has the opportunity to apply herself in those fields instead and make a better income.  That doesn't preclude teaching or hanging out at the dance studio, in her "free time".  But she chooses to engage in her passion, potentially 'part-time' where she will probably always be at the edge of self sufficiency.

  I would think if she owned a thriving dance studio, she might make good money, if she were business savvy, and had a large client base.
 A friend of mine growing up, his mom owned a "dance supply store" for many years . Shoes, costumes, leotards, etc.  - just a small storefront but it was financially viable for 15+ years - and kept the mom and daughter involved in the dance world / scene with lots of connections to schools and producers, etc.

  If she isn't ready to get into a lucrative carreer at this point, i think you may be waiting awhile before she starts accumulating assets / savings / etc...

[startingsmall]

Veterinarian here.

If it was my dog, I'd extract the tooth. I offer referral for root canals and all that stuff, because some clients are really weird about the idea of a young dog without a canine... but if it was my dog, I'd extract.

[Bernard]

Thank you all for your advice.
I'd like to clear up a few things. Our daughter is a great kid. Her mom had to raise her alone on a very limited budget, and she grew up with her head in the right place. She never got in trouble, not even once, and graduated with honors and double majors and without any student debt. Zero.

She couldn't find a job in her field in California, which is why she moved to Asheville as an intern. The gamble paid off as she was one of the few who got hired afterward. She got promoted eventually, then found another job in the same field. She is self-sufficient, follows her passion, but she just doesn't make a lot of money. She wants to improve her financial situation though, and that's a great start.

She on her own opted to have the tooth extracted. But since that requires general anesthesia, they want to perform teeth cleaning at the same time. The extraction itself is $240, but with everything the bill will be $595.27. We will lend her the money, and she'll pay us back with 12 monthly installments of $50.
When she comes home for the holidays, we can chat about options to improve her financial situations.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Linea_Norway]

Thank you all for your advice.
I'd like to clear up a few things. Our daughter is a great kid. Her mom had to raise her alone on a very limited budget, and she grew up with her head in the right place. She never got in trouble, not even once, and graduated with honors and double majors and without any student debt. Zero.

She couldn't find a job in her field in California, which is why she moved to Asheville as an intern. The gamble paid off as she was one of the few who got hired afterward. She got promoted eventually, then found another job in the same field. She is self-sufficient, follows her passion, but she just doesn't make a lot of money. She wants to improve her financial situation though, and that's a great start.

She on her own opted to have the tooth extracted. But since that requires general anesthesia, they want to perform teeth cleaning at the same time. The extraction itself is $240, but with everything the bill will be $595.27. We will lend her the money, and she'll pay us back with 12 monthly installments of $50.
When she comes home for the holidays, we can chat about options to improve her financial situations.

Thanks again for the advice.

I am not a dog owner, but that teeth cleaner sounds like an expensive treatment, compared to human teeth cleaning by a dentist. Maybe she should find another vet for the next visit? This one seems to focus on very expensive treatment.

[KBecks]

The economy is good. If she wants more money, benefits, etc., now is a great time for her to upgrade her job.

[startingsmall]

Thank you all for your advice.
I'd like to clear up a few things. Our daughter is a great kid. Her mom had to raise her alone on a very limited budget, and she grew up with her head in the right place. She never got in trouble, not even once, and graduated with honors and double majors and without any student debt. Zero.

She couldn't find a job in her field in California, which is why she moved to Asheville as an intern. The gamble paid off as she was one of the few who got hired afterward. She got promoted eventually, then found another job in the same field. She is self-sufficient, follows her passion, but she just doesn't make a lot of money. She wants to improve her financial situation though, and that's a great start.

She on her own opted to have the tooth extracted. But since that requires general anesthesia, they want to perform teeth cleaning at the same time. The extraction itself is $240, but with everything the bill will be $595.27. We will lend her the money, and she'll pay us back with 12 monthly installments of $50.
When she comes home for the holidays, we can chat about options to improve her financial situations.

Thanks again for the advice.

I am not a dog owner, but that teeth cleaner sounds like an expensive treatment, compared to human teeth cleaning by a dentist. Maybe she should find another vet for the next visit? This one seems to focus on very expensive treatment.

I live in NC and that price sounds pretty typical. Your dentist doesn't have to put you under general anesthesia... If they did, I guarantee the bill would probably be 10x higher than the dog's bill.

[Kris]

Thank you all for your advice.
I'd like to clear up a few things. Our daughter is a great kid. Her mom had to raise her alone on a very limited budget, and she grew up with her head in the right place. She never got in trouble, not even once, and graduated with honors and double majors and without any student debt. Zero.

She couldn't find a job in her field in California, which is why she moved to Asheville as an intern. The gamble paid off as she was one of the few who got hired afterward. She got promoted eventually, then found another job in the same field. She is self-sufficient, follows her passion, but she just doesn't make a lot of money. She wants to improve her financial situation though, and that's a great start.

She on her own opted to have the tooth extracted. But since that requires general anesthesia, they want to perform teeth cleaning at the same time. The extraction itself is $240, but with everything the bill will be $595.27. We will lend her the money, and she'll pay us back with 12 monthly installments of $50.
When she comes home for the holidays, we can chat about options to improve her financial situations.

Thanks again for the advice.

I am not a dog owner, but that teeth cleaner sounds like an expensive treatment, compared to human teeth cleaning by a dentist. Maybe she should find another vet for the next visit? This one seems to focus on very expensive treatment.

I live in NC and that price sounds pretty typical. Your dentist doesn't have to put you under general anesthesia... If they did, I guarantee the bill would probably be 10x higher than the dog's bill.

Yeah, teeth cleaning for animals is very expensive, for this reason.

[Sibley]

Thank you all for your advice.
I'd like to clear up a few things. Our daughter is a great kid. Her mom had to raise her alone on a very limited budget, and she grew up with her head in the right place. She never got in trouble, not even once, and graduated with honors and double majors and without any student debt. Zero.

She couldn't find a job in her field in California, which is why she moved to Asheville as an intern. The gamble paid off as she was one of the few who got hired afterward. She got promoted eventually, then found another job in the same field. She is self-sufficient, follows her passion, but she just doesn't make a lot of money. She wants to improve her financial situation though, and that's a great start.

She on her own opted to have the tooth extracted. But since that requires general anesthesia, they want to perform teeth cleaning at the same time. The extraction itself is $240, but with everything the bill will be $595.27. We will lend her the money, and she'll pay us back with 12 monthly installments of $50.
When she comes home for the holidays, we can chat about options to improve her financial situations.

Thanks again for the advice.

I am not a dog owner, but that teeth cleaner sounds like an expensive treatment, compared to human teeth cleaning by a dentist. Maybe she should find another vet for the next visit? This one seems to focus on very expensive treatment.

That amount is consistent with what I've paid for my cat's dentals. Really, most of the expense is related to the fact that they have to knock them out. When you go to the dentist, they don't have to have an anesthesiologist there.

[dodojojo]

In my area, the cleaning alone would be over $500, nevermind the extraction.  As pointed out already, it's the going under that makes it expensive.  My dentist charge $160 per cleaning but I don't think he's keen to clean my cats' teeth.

[Cassie]

We have Maltese and small dogs have bad teeth. If we just need a cleaning it’s 350. If teeth need to be pulled they charge by the time it takes. I have paid up to 1k. Molars take longer to extract and they have to be careful because they can break a dogs jaw.

[Lanthiriel]

This is what I get for not reading all the way through. Sounds like your daughter made a smart decision! And dental cleanings are expensive, but not a bad idea if the dog is already out. Sounds like you worked out a good solution!

__________________________________
My dumb post that is now irrelevant...

I love my dogs. I just spent $4000 on knee surgery for one of mine when she blew her CCL. I would not pay for a dog root canal. I cannot think of any medically necessary reason for a dog to have a root canal and crown. What is she going to do? Never let the dog tug on a toy or chew a stick lest it break the crown? Have her get a second opinion from a different vet.

FWIW, my now 11-year-old corgi had a huge molar pulled when he was 2 after it shattered for some unknown reason. Other than some tartar on the teeth below over the years, he's perfectly fine. Zero issues with teeth moving or surrounding teeth not being protected.

[PJ]

Differences in cost between vet practices, or different areas, are not just about greed from some vets, but can also represent real differences in the approaches taken, and those real differences can translate to different outcomes. One simple example - for a standard spay/neuter surgery, does the vet have a line in, in case they need to push fluids or meds in a crisis? Or do they only put the line in if a crisis hits, saving money on the standard surgery (assuming nothing does go wrong), but costing precious time in a crisis? I've had a lot of pets and done a bunch of fostering in the past, so I've had lots of conversations about these things! Even to the extent of listening to vets debate which drugs to use, older/cheaper or newer/safer/pricier. Got to make sure you're comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

Also, as the owner of a large, difficult dog, who needs to be fully sedated for ANY vet visit, I can also add that vets charge by the quantity of medication they have to use. So my big dog will cost more than Cassie's Maltese terrier, and based on average weight, OP's step-daughter's dog would probably be somewhere in between. So that could be a factor too. Since my dog takes a lot of meds (some quite pricy!) I know I'm planning to choose a smaller dog next time! Ha ha ha!

Anyway, glad that OP's step-daughter opted for the extraction. That sure did seem like the most logical course of action. Little risk to the dog, and less cost to owner. It also makes some sense to me to do cleaning while the dog is under. Most of us probably don't take good enough care of our pets' teeth. I wanted to do the same when my dog had some lumps and bumps checked out, but ultimately we decided to keep the surgery short due to her other medical conditions.

[Cassie]

We had a 80lb husky/shepherd mix and everything was expensive because he was so big:))

[Hula Hoop]

Your daughter sounds like she's doing pretty well.  I'm glad that she came round to a more common sense view re. her dog.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Jeez, I've decided on a tooth extraction over a root canal for myself based on cost (and the fact it was a very back molar). I love my cat to bits but there's no way he's getting a root canal. He doesn't give a shit, so he can have an extraction.

[Tami1982]

For the tooth extraction vs Root canal situation - I was in the same place a few years ago with my labrador and I have pet insurance that would have paid for a majority of the root canal.  After research it seems that it really depends on which tooth it is in terms of benefit.  Certain teeth are more important. 

After research and a second opinion I elected to do an extraction.  It simply wasn't one of the teeth that would cause real issues with its removal.

That said.  It's her dog.  She gets to make the decision for her pup's care.  If you only want to cover the cost of extraction and she will find a way to make it work, cool.  If you want to give it freely for however much, cool, but I wouldn't loan it. 

[mistymoney]

root canals for animals?

No way. Not only does it seem unnecessary, but a crown will require ongoing maintenance at some point, and the dog can't tell you if something is wrong. Roots canals can be iffy - even when performed by certified endodontists with years of specialized training.

DD needs a new vet. This one is recommending either based on money or something "fun" to do.

This is not in the dogs best interest.