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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: ebella on July 17, 2018, 01:19:31 PM

Title: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on July 17, 2018, 01:19:31 PM
Long story short, I make 3 times what my partner does.  I've got a professional degree (and ensuing student debt) and he's a blue collar dude with no degree and some credit card debt (incurred when we were long distance).  We've been together for many years; last year I relocated to a better job market and he came along this year once he got a job in his line of work (bicycles).  I've just purchased my first home in the center of the city so that commuting costs are zero for me because I can take public transit which my employer pays. 
His commuting costs were also zero....until recently when his employer wanted to promote him to manage a different location which is 19 miles from where we live (in the suburbs) and not easily accessible via transit or bike given the delight that is Atlanta suburban traffic.  They've offered to give him a $5000 raise ($40k from $35k).  I'm not happy about this because 1) this does not cover the IRS .54 per mile commuting cost and 2) he will be using my 2008 Subaru outback (he has no car) which I have paid off, intend to drive into the ground, and do not like to get lots of miles or and 3) that is our only car and, because he works on weekends, this means I will have no car on weekends. So basically, I (and my car) are subsidizing this commute which, is, essentially, a net decrease in take his home pay and our joint income.  He is unhappy at the current location where he works and thinks he will be happier at this other location and that it is a step up (as it is management) and its the nature of the bike industry. He also says there will be bonuses and they will look at raises in the Fall.
 I don't disagree with him trying to be happier or move up and I don't disagree that the bike industry is pretty shitty in terms of renumeration.  But I've seen this before in 2 other bike stores.  Last year, he got in credit card debt because he was commuting almost 2 hours a day but he took it because it was the only bike store offering health insurance.  At the bike store before that,where he got no health insurance and which is now probably about to go out of business, he kept being promised raises but they never materialized.  He was not particularly happy with managing either place but he loves bikes and people and, without a college education, can't imagine doing much else.  He could easily get a contracting job but says he would hate that. 
At the end of the day, I want him to be happy but I also feel like, when I bear the costs for this sort of thing, it perpetuates this cycle of him working for employers that are not willing to invest in him and (at some points) have directly stated that they don't need to pay compensate him with a livable wage because I have a good job.  I don't care that he makes less than I do and cannot contribute as much, but this particular scenario, really grates on me because its directly causing a net decrease for me.  I can't infantilize him and tell him he can't do it but, if he doesn't get a raise in the fall and isn't appreciably happier and more relaxed with work, I think I will insist that he start looking for other employers.
My question is, how do people deal with this sort of financial and professional imbalance while respecting that one's partner was born into different advantages and has different professional opportunities?  I'm going to try to have us do a budget tonight and I've laid out my long term goals re: paying off my student debt and mortgage pretty clearly.  I'd like him to have his goals laid out too but I don't want him to feel like I'm giving him some sort of financial ultimatum.  Please help with any stories of your own or advice,
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: GuitarStv on July 17, 2018, 01:30:52 PM
You're in a committed relationship.  What hurts one, hurts the other.  You need to calmly, compassionately, and without judgement put all your cards on the table, and trust that your partner loves you enough to work together with you to find the best possible solution for everyone.  It sounds like there are a lot of possible options for your scenario . . . list everything out that you can think of and start the discussion.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: sokoloff on July 17, 2018, 01:35:38 PM
Tough spot for sure.

The costs of driving a 2008 Subaru are not $0.54/mile for sure. What would it be if he bought a beater Honda Civic or Prius? That seems like it would alleviate several of your concerns (all/most of which are totally valid). The cost of driving a depreciated, older car are probably closer to $2500 for 10K miles a year, which is close to a wash with the raise (probably ends up slightly positive).

As for specific stories, I out-earned DW when we were dating and living together. I didn't (and still don't) give half a crap, but she was insistent that she pay rent equal to what her old place cost (which was cheap) and half the utilities and groceries. Was OK with me, but lots of other arrangements would have also been OK. Now that we're married, that semi-charade/semi-point-of-principle is behind us.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: nobody123 on July 17, 2018, 01:43:02 PM
The costs of driving a 2008 Subaru are not $0.54/mile for sure. What would it be if he bought a beater Honda Civic or Prius? That seems like it would alleviate several of your concerns (all/most of which are totally valid). The cost of driving a depreciated, older car are probably closer to $2500 for 10K miles a year, which is close to a wash with the raise (probably ends up slightly positive).

+1.  If you don't want him driving your car, tell him he needs to buy one for himself.  This isn't difficult.  You could always loan him the money and have him pay you back over a couple of months with the money from his raise.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: lbmustache on July 17, 2018, 01:43:51 PM
Well, he willingly came along for your job, so I think it's only fair that you support him for his next career "move."

I would sit down and calmly discuss your goals. I agree that it is unfair for him to take this job knowing he does not have transportation unless you're there to lend your car, especially since you are focused on the goal of paying off debt. With that said, there seem to be far more upsides to his new job. Maybe you two could start a joint replacement car fund since this seems to be a big issue atm, or he can use some of his savings to purchase a beater. Does he pay rent to you?

If this is a long-term relationship and you want things to continue to work long-term, you will have to come to some sort of compromise or collaborative effort. I think your ultimatums are a bit mismatched for his income level/career choices, and maybe that means the relationship cannot continue.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on July 17, 2018, 01:45:09 PM
What would it be if he bought a beater Honda Civic or Prius?

Since our building comes with only 1 deeded parking spot, it would be the cost of parking (which runs approx $100/mo) plus insuring and registering said vehicle.  That doesn't come out ahead, unless I sell my Subaru which I don't see as being worthwhile given its BlueBook value (100,000 miles currently) and that I bought it with cash because I wanted it to last forever. 
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on July 17, 2018, 01:49:26 PM
Well, he willingly came along for your job, so I think it's only fair that you support him for his next career "move."

I would sit down and calmly discuss your goals. I agree that it is unfair for him to take this job knowing he does not have transportation unless you're there to lend your car, especially since you are focused on the goal of paying off debt. With that said, there seem to be far more upsides to his new job. Maybe you two could start a joint replacement car fund since this seems to be a big issue atm, or he can use some of his savings to purchase a beater. Does he pay rent to you?

If this is a long-term relationship and you want things to continue to work long-term, you will have to come to some sort of compromise or collaborative effort. I think your ultimatums are a bit mismatched for his income level/career choices, and maybe that means the relationship cannot continue.

Oh yes, I definitely want to be supportive, I just worry that I'm kind of enabling shitty employers to continue to not fully compensate him. 

As for your questions: no he has no savings and no he pays no rent.  I wanted him to be able to focus on paying off credit card debt so when he moved into my place here I just kept paying it but, now that I've bought a place, I'll ask him to pay the HOA fees and insurance (I'll cover the mortgage which is less than my previous rent).
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Bracken_Joy on July 17, 2018, 01:57:41 PM
Well, he willingly came along for your job, so I think it's only fair that you support him for his next career "move."

I would sit down and calmly discuss your goals. I agree that it is unfair for him to take this job knowing he does not have transportation unless you're there to lend your car, especially since you are focused on the goal of paying off debt. With that said, there seem to be far more upsides to his new job. Maybe you two could start a joint replacement car fund since this seems to be a big issue atm, or he can use some of his savings to purchase a beater. Does he pay rent to you?

If this is a long-term relationship and you want things to continue to work long-term, you will have to come to some sort of compromise or collaborative effort. I think your ultimatums are a bit mismatched for his income level/career choices, and maybe that means the relationship cannot continue.

Oh yes, I definitely want to be supportive, I just worry that I'm kind of enabling shitty employers to continue to not fully compensate him. 

As for your questions: no he has no savings and no he pays no rent.  I wanted him to be able to focus on paying off credit card debt so when he moved into my place here I just kept paying it but, now that I've bought a place, I'll ask him to pay the HOA fees and insurance (I'll cover the mortgage which is less than my previous rent).

That seems incredibly condescending. If you don't trust him to make his own employment choices, then you don't respect him enough to be in a committed relationship with him. The way you write, it sounds more like a mother writing about a teenage son, not mutually respectful adults in a mature relationship. Especially since you brought this to the forums, vs just saying "hey I worry they're not paying you what you're worth. Does that worry you?" and listening to his answer. And respecting the answer.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: HPstache on July 17, 2018, 01:58:50 PM
He makes $35,000 and soon to be $40,000 a year and has low expense, he can afford to buy his own car, fill it, park it & insure it... what else does he spend his money on?  It sounds like this isn't as complicated as you're making it out to be in your mind.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Retire-Canada on July 17, 2018, 02:06:14 PM
My question is, how do people deal with this sort of financial and professional imbalance while respecting that one's partner was born into different advantages and has different professional opportunities?  I'm going to try to have us do a budget tonight and I've laid out my long term goals re: paying off my student debt and mortgage pretty clearly.  I'd like him to have his goals laid out too but I don't want him to feel like I'm giving him some sort of financial ultimatum.  Please help with any stories of your own or advice,

I have been in relationships with several people who made less than me...some 1/3rd or 1/4er as much. In general I feel like people need to contribute a fair amount. What's fair varies from situation to situation. For essentials I'd want them to contribute what they would if they were not with me. So that would be 50% of reasonable rent [say $500/month], 50% of reasonable groceries [say $250/month], etc... If I wanted to live someplace fancy I'd still only expect $500/month even if the true cost was $3000/month. When we did fancy holidays I would expect them to pay for some of it....maybe their airfare and then I covered everything else.

For your situation I'd say he should get a cheap car or motorcycle with the extra $5K he's getting paid. If he can't make that work the promotion seems like a bad career move....more responsibility and effort for less money after the commute costs are factored in.  Here is the thing...if it was a dream job...say wrenching for a World Cup Downhill champion and he needed some financial support for a couple years to make that dream come true I'd say help him. OTOH subsidising a low paying job that is not some amazing opportunity seems silly. Especially when you will need a car on the weekends.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: CrustyBadger on July 17, 2018, 02:09:50 PM
To your immediate question about his commute -- I think it is reasonable to not want your significant other to rely on your car for his commute to work. His employers should not be counting on it, either!

He needs to get his own car, or take the bus to work. I see you live in Atlanta -- the MARTA bus runs to the suburbs and seems to me to be bike friendly.

https://www.itsmarta.com/bring-your-bike.aspx

I don't know anything about Atlanta geography but I see for example that the town of Vinings is about 15 miles from downtown.   Here's a description of how you could take a bus to almost there, then walk or bike the rest of the way.

https://martaguide.com/2014/11/18/marta-to-vinings
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: historienne on July 17, 2018, 02:10:54 PM
I agree that, given he's followed you to the new city, you owe him some serious support.  And it sounds like you agree with that too.  Ideas to buy a used car (however that's financed) sound reasonable to me.

The bigger issue, though, is that it sounds like you don't like his career choice.  Reading between the lines, you think he's picked the wrong industry, and is doomed to crappy jobs if he stays in the bike shop world, and worry that his choice will impact you down the line.  Y'all need to talk that through, but when you do so, make sure you aren't just thinking about his contributions to the household in terms of money.  Also consider what skills and talents he brings to the table; most bike shop people are pretty handy! Depending on your own job, it may also be very convenient to have a spouse who could cut his own hours at work and pick up slack around the house without too much impact on the family budget.  That goes triple if you are planning to have kids--this is the classic traditional family model, after all. 

In the interim, I can say that my husband and I decided early on to split expenses according to the ratio of our incomes.  At some points, this meant that I was paying for 90% of the household bills.  When we actually got married, we moved to a one-pot system, and budget for the same amount of personal spending money for each of us each month.  And all career decisions have been made jointly--but with an eye to life satisfaction, not just spending power.  My husband took a 50% pay cut a few years ago to switch jobs (he was moving to the nonprofit sector, so this was unavoidable).  He likes his job way more than he used to, and that outweighed the money for us. 
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: CNM on July 17, 2018, 02:15:59 PM
Has he tried to negotiate higher pay?
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: FrugalFisherman10 on July 17, 2018, 02:32:10 PM
Definitely just talk to him about it. I'm a guy so maybe it helps to hear my perspective...

if I were him, I would already feel like I'm pretty much "bumming off you" in a lot of ways (place to live mainly), so any little bit of pushback my loving, caring, generous girlfriend has about sharing/lending me something ELSE (her car on the weekends so I can go to work) would be received pretty reasonably.
Caveats : this assumes yall are in a good relationship and he would otherwise say you're loving, caring and generous haha.

You seem to be concerned about one money thing and two non-money things:
Money thing - car lending cost (of putting Miles on it)
Non money thing - not having your car on the weekends
Non money thing - concern for his happiness, wellbeing at work, and ability to "move up"

I think those are all valid. The 'employers taking advantage of him/not delivering on their promises" is a bit of a "stretch" concern though. You're worried about something that hasn't happened yet. It's not up to you to prevent employers from doing that, protect him from it, etc. I would just express your concern about it but you can't control an employers actions.  Sure it happened in a different instance, but who's to say it is going to happen with this manager /this time? Instead of worrying about it before it happens, maybe wait and see if it does happen (i.e. he doesn't get to move up much, doesn't get a bonus, whatever ) then address it. ("Hey, i think your management didnt really deliver on their promises now that it's been 6 months or so. What can we do to fix that? Take a different job closer to where we live?") That way you'll be addressing something that's actually occurring, not addressing something that hasn't yet occurred.

P.S. The issue here is (i think obviously) NOT the income imbalance in your relationship. Perhaps it would be a good exercise to "rename it" (in your head, if the forum doesn't allow you to actually rename the thread itself).
So here's a test...if you were to rename this "problem", what would you name it? I don't want to answer that for you because it doesn't really matter to me..it matters how YOU see it, and I don't think it's the income imbalance

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: charis on July 17, 2018, 02:35:21 PM
My spouse is a professional in an industry that just barely pays a a living wage (for a family in a MCOL city anyway) and requires a graduate degree.  It's crazy.  But that's how it is in that field.  I can't force my spouse's employers to pay more, even if it was appropriate for me to weigh in, which it's not.   It is what it is.  You can encourage your spouse to seek higher paying positions when the time comes, but that's about it.  You have to decide whether his career path is a deal breaker for you or whether you can be ok with the draw backs.   It sounds like he is making other financial decisions that you are unhappy with, so you may want to examine the full picture scenario of your life with this person.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on July 17, 2018, 02:56:59 PM
Has he tried to negotiate higher pay?

Yes they initially proposed 38K and he was like "that's a loss for me"
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: SilveradoBojangles on July 17, 2018, 02:59:06 PM
Are you in this relationship for the long haul? Have you combined finances? If not, do you split costs based on your incomes, or 50-50? Because you'll get different advice depending on the answers to those questions.

If you see yourselves making a life together, then in the long term this really doesn't matter that much. You want him to be happier, he think's he'll be happier at this other job, he may as well give it a shot. I second the suggestion of you two considering buying a second car (or you sucking it up and biking/using public transport on weekends for a few months). Presumably if the job isn't all it's cracked up to be you two can revisit down the line and then maybe it will make sense for him to look for something closer. But this isn't the same as him asking you to subsidize an expensive hobby

If you keep your finances separate, and plan to do that for the forseeable future, then maybe you should tell him that you are fine with him taking the job if that is what he wants, but he can't use your car so he'll need to buy one if he wants to do this commute.

Finally - Are you really fine with dating someone with lower income prospects? Because you don't sound that fine with it, and it sounds like this particular issue is symptomatic of a deeper resentment.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on July 17, 2018, 03:00:30 PM
To your immediate question about his commute -- I think it is reasonable to not want your significant other to rely on your car for his commute to work. His employers should not be counting on it, either!

He needs to get his own car, or take the bus to work. I see you live in Atlanta -- the MARTA bus runs to the suburbs and seems to me to be bike friendly.

https://www.itsmarta.com/bring-your-bike.aspx

I don't know anything about Atlanta geography but I see for example that the town of Vinings is about 15 miles from downtown.   Here's a description of how you could take a bus to almost there, then walk or bike the rest of the way.

https://martaguide.com/2014/11/18/marta-to-vinings

Yeah the Atlanta buses are notoriously unreliable.  The one time I tried to take it it just didn't come.  I am not sure he can rely on those when he has to be at a store on weekends (when they are even less reliable) to open it.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Samuel on July 17, 2018, 03:20:55 PM
The bigger issue, though, is that it sounds like you don't like his career choice.  Reading between the lines, you think he's picked the wrong industry, and is doomed to crappy jobs if he stays in the bike shop world, and worry that his choice will impact you down the line.  Y'all need to talk that through, but when you do so, make sure you aren't just thinking about his contributions to the household in terms of money.  Also consider what skills and talents he brings to the table; most bike shop people are pretty handy! Depending on your own job, it may also be very convenient to have a spouse who could cut his own hours at work and pick up slack around the house without too much impact on the family budget.  That goes triple if you are planning to have kids--this is the classic traditional family model, after all.   

+1

Also, if he is open to leaving the bike world at some point (the way it was phrased made it sound like he loves bikes but also doesn't feel qualified for much else) the mechanical skills of a kick ass bike mechanic would likely translate well into industrial applications. Trade school to learn to repair and maintain some kind of high end machinery wouldn't be a huge leap.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: calimom on July 17, 2018, 04:08:55 PM
I'm confused about the IRS mandated .54 per mile reimbursement. Is he actually using the car for deliveries and job related tasks during his workday? In that case, the employer should be the one paying mileage, not out of the BF's salary. If he is simply using the car to commute to and from work, it would seem reasonable for him to pay for fuel and his portion of insurance and repairs. It sounds like it's an understandable challenge for him to use the car on weekends when you need it to; what are the solutions? Can you drive him to work sometimes if there are no transit options? Can he carpool with a coworker?

The comment about subsidizing an employer's low wage is also a bit curious. There are lots of jobs in the world that do not pay six figures. In fact, most don't Agreed, it's better when people do their best and strive for better pay and benefits, and it sounds like your partner is trying to have a decent job in an industry he likes.

I hope you two can work out all these details. Nothing seems horribly insurmountable, at least on the surface.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: use2betrix on July 17, 2018, 06:03:56 PM
I would break up with him. You’re obviously unable to get over this wage gap mentally and that’s not fair to him.

FYI, I’m 30 and a blue collar worker with just an associates degree. I’ve had several years over $200k in the construction industry. I’ve already taken home over $120k this year by this weeks end.

If I was to limit myself to women who were “near my pay range” I’d be an awfully lonely guy. In fact, I have a near flawless relationship with my wife who’s never made more than like 20-30k and typically doesn’t work at all because I don’t find it worthwhile.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: CrustyBadger on July 17, 2018, 06:20:29 PM
To your immediate question about his commute -- I think it is reasonable to not want your significant other to rely on your car for his commute to work. His employers should not be counting on it, either!

He needs to get his own car, or take the bus to work. I see you live in Atlanta -- the MARTA bus runs to the suburbs and seems to me to be bike friendly.

https://www.itsmarta.com/bring-your-bike.aspx

I don't know anything about Atlanta geography but I see for example that the town of Vinings is about 15 miles from downtown.   Here's a description of how you could take a bus to almost there, then walk or bike the rest of the way.

https://martaguide.com/2014/11/18/marta-to-vinings

Yeah the Atlanta buses are notoriously unreliable.  The one time I tried to take it it just didn't come.  I am not sure he can rely on those when he has to be at a store on weekends (when they are even less reliable) to open it.

OK, but public transportation is how people without cars do get around.  You tried the bus "the one time"... Did you ever try it again?   People who take the bus often have to plan to get one earlier than necessary just to be sure to arrive somewhere on time... It's a pain but that's what people without cars have to do.   

Is the particular route from your home to his new workplace always running late?
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Retire-Canada on July 17, 2018, 08:04:57 PM
OK, but public transportation is how people without cars do get around.  You tried the bus "the one time"... Did you ever try it again?   People who take the bus often have to plan to get one earlier than necessary just to be sure to arrive somewhere on time... It's a pain but that's what people without cars have to do.   

Is the particular route from your home to his new workplace always running late?

Yup. He can get up early and take the bus to be sure he is on time. If he is early he can carry a thermos of tea/coffee and chill out before he has to open the shop.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Hargrove on July 17, 2018, 08:15:18 PM
I don't understand. Who volunteered your pay in the first place that an employer had the gall to use it as a reason not to pay your partner? That should be unacceptable to all involved.

Does he assume he can use your car, or did you assume he assumed that? You say "my home;" if he's using "his raise" to buy "his moped" then there isn't even an issue... right?

Flip your question: if it cost you $1000 ($2000? $3000?) for your partner to attempt to do something to substantially improve his happiness, would you pay it? It's either "my money" or "our money." If it's "my money," he can't actually accept this job without getting his own car and paying his own parking, or own the fact that he's on the bus, maybe early. If it's "our money," you're talking about a partnered expense that it's fair to sit down and hash out what the benefits could be for this (perhaps temporary) financial loss.

If your problem is that he's "still waiting for bicycle work to pay," you need to address that issue or else move on, because it doesn't sound like he has a clue you want him to reconsider his career, if that's the case.

Check the Bluebook on that Subaru... I'd be impressed if 100k miles hadn't run most of its depreciation out already (the remaining depreciation, if that's really your concern, will be extremely slow at this point).

The more important question to bring you to a real understanding here is why your partner needs to do this. Does he want recognition? To measure up to you a little bit? To feel successful and competent? To overcome doubt and anxiety? To prove something to you or himself? To work in a preferred location? To learn management skills? To eventually... own a bike shop? Kudos to him for negotiating more money in the first place - if the difference is just 2k more, maybe he can make a counter offer for it.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Rural on July 17, 2018, 08:36:12 PM
OK, but public transportation is how people without cars do get around.  You tried the bus "the one time"... Did you ever try it again?   People who take the bus often have to plan to get one earlier than necessary just to be sure to arrive somewhere on time... It's a pain but that's what people without cars have to do.   

Is the particular route from your home to his new workplace always running late?

Yup. He can get up early and take the bus to be sure he is on time. If he is early he can carry a thermos of tea/coffee and chill out before he has to open the shop.


Not an option if he works in an Atlanta suburb. Weekend busses, at best, will run their routes two trips out of three scheduled to the suburbs, and weekends are worse, plus they likely won't run as early as he has to be there to open on weekends. The Atlanta public transit system really is that bad, has been for years. It's like that in a great many southern cities. Anyone who relies on buses in Atlanta to get to suburb jobs will lose that job in short order if they don't have a flex schedule.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: jlcnuke on July 18, 2018, 05:48:37 AM
I see a relationship issue here more than a money issue. Sure, the job may result in a fairly slight net decrease in finances. He obviously thinks it is worth it however. You seem to not think his happiness is worth the extra monetary cost however. Based on your post, we can assume that between the two of you the total income will be ~$150-160k/year (his 40k plus your earning ~3x his pay). With that total income, sharing the car and the slight inconvenience or just buying a cheap commuter so that his work-life happiness can increase seems to be something you don't think is a good idea.

It's "your" home.
It's "your" car.
"His" job doesn't pay enough.
"His" career doesn't seem to be good enough.
"His" happiness at work doesn't seem to matter.

Quite frankly, I don't see much of you invested in making your relationship a mutual one, and you don't seem to respect his work or his wishes. If that doesn't change, I don't think any of his financial situation will matter for long as I can't see the relationship lasting anyway.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: LouLou on July 18, 2018, 06:16:33 AM
I see a relationship issue here more than a money issue. Sure, the job may result in a fairly slight net decrease in finances. He obviously thinks it is worth it however. You seem to not think his happiness is worth the extra monetary cost however. Based on your post, we can assume that between the two of you the total income will be ~$150-160k/year (his 40k plus your earning ~3x his pay). With that total income, sharing the car and the slight inconvenience or just buying a cheap commuter so that his work-life happiness can increase seems to be something you don't think is a good idea.

It's "your" home.
It's "your" car.
"His" job doesn't pay enough.
"His" career doesn't seem to be good enough.
"His" happiness at work doesn't seem to matter.

Quite frankly, I don't see much of you invested in making your relationship a mutual one, and you don't seem to respect his work or his wishes. If that doesn't change, I don't think any of his financial situation will matter for long as I can't see the relationship lasting anyway.

This seems harsh, but this is the impression I got too.  A slight decrease in net pay to advance a career is a reasonable choice. Maybe there wouldn't be a net increase this step, but having management on his resume could help him with future opportunities. Plus, if you had a "team" mindset to this relationship, you would see that your joint income is pretty high and you just have some logistical problem. (Long distance bike commute? How to deal with Atlanta's public transit system? Budget for occasional Lyfts when the bus fails to show up? Drop him off and pick him up on weekends?)

I just took an actual pay cut to switch jobs and my husband is 100% in favor of the switch. Why? Because I am much happier and I think the switch will help me get to the career I want long term. My happiness and fulfillment are more important than money to him. We live below our means anyway so it's not like we are going hungry.

That said, my husband and I decided to be a team when we got married. I do not have a "team" mindset without being legally married. The bigger questions for you are: are you a team? do you want to be on his team? if not now, what do you need to see? why?  No judgment if this is not the right relationship for you.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Villanelle on July 18, 2018, 06:46:42 AM
If having him take the car on weekends doesn't work for you, tell him that.  You say you don't want to infantilize him, but that seems to be exactly what you are doing.  Be up front--I really want this job for you, but being stuck without the car just isn't going to work for me.  What I can do is help you find something cheap and reliable to buy.  [And, if you are comfortable with it, offer to loan him maybe $1500 for a car purchase, to be paid off over the next 4 months of higher paychecks, or something similar.]"

Because you are correct; he isn't a child so he's capable of sorting this out on his own, but to do that he needs you to be up front about what you are and are not willing to contribute to this new endeavor of his.  It would have been better if you would have given him this info before he made this decision (if it is in fact a done deal), but you are where you are, so tell him and let him deal with it as a man.  And as his partner, support him in that however you can, whether that means a loan to be paid off with his higher paychecks, or offering to help him car shop, or maybe letting him drive the better car unless you need it for some reason, or just being there for him while he sorts this out. 
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: brute on July 18, 2018, 08:23:18 AM
I make ∞ more than my spouse currently. She's unemployed. When she does get a job, she'll make 1/4 what I do at best even though she has a Master's degree in a hard science. Avian biologists, amirite?

So, the question here is: Do I care?
Answer: sometimes. But I do my best to never, ever say anything about it when I'm not in a great mood. We also talk openly about finances, which helps a lot. She understands money even though she's never had much of it, and is open with me about her wants and understands when we have to put things off or settle for something less than the best and newest.

Now, $40k. Thats a lot of money. In fact, it's ~20% more than average. No reason he can't buy a car and handle the costs himself. If that isn't running through his head, then either he's not very bright or he's become completely dependent on you. If you can't undo dependency, dump him and let him grow into the best version of himself instead of being stunted and corralled. If you don't like supporting him, stop supporting him. Don't play with guilt, don't play with power. Be equals. Money is just money, not a representation of the worth of someone.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: frugaliknowit on July 18, 2018, 09:37:31 AM
"...I don't care that he makes less than I do and cannot contribute as much, but this particular scenario, really grates on me because its directly causing a net decrease for me.  I can't infantilize him and tell him he can't do it but, if he doesn't get a raise in the fall and isn't appreciably happier and more relaxed with work, I think I will insist that he start looking for other employers..."

This concerns me.  I'm thinking this guy is too much of an "inconvenience".  A "net decrease", WTF?  He's your partner, you say?  When you bought the house you just bought, did you consult with him?  Did you attempt to include him in a (small) way?  Did you consider buying something appropriate for an $80K income (his $40K plus $40K from your end or some kind of split...), or renting together?  Hey, the GUY WORKS!  There are guys out there (I've met them) that CANNOT EVEN HOLD A JOB OF ANY KIND!

Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Radagast on July 18, 2018, 09:39:40 AM
He makes $35,000 and soon to be $40,000 a year and has low expense, he can afford to buy his own car, fill it, park it & insure it... what else does he spend his money on?  It sounds like this isn't as complicated as you're making it out to be in your mind.
That's sort of how I'm leaning too. I have not heard that Atlanta is a high cost of living city, at best medium cost. $40k should easily be enough to support one entire person and low cost commuter car, without any debt, maxing out an IRA, with some additional savings building up on the side.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on July 18, 2018, 09:58:05 AM
Wow, alot of replies here. I would like to reply to all of them but, for simplicity's sake won't.  To all those who have experienced similar things: thanks for sharing. I think it will work out; we're communicating alot about it and have decided, going forward, we need to st aside one night a week to talk about these sorts of financial things and set out clearer goals.  We'll see how it goes when we do that next week. In the meantime, I'll manage on the weekends without a car and he'll fix a scooter he has (back in our old town) so we can have that too (without paying extra parking or buying something).  He thinks the raise in the fall will be around 5-8k more and, if that's the case AND he's happier, it's a good move. 
To those who said something along the lines of "dump him" or "it seems like you're judging him" or "it seems like money matters to you," I deliberately started my post with "long story short" because, in a seven year relationship, there's alot of context that goes into why I moved to a new city and the sacrifices we've made for one another's careers and finances.  So here's some context. 
While I got my professional degree, he was working full time but I paid half our shared expenses.  I think that's fair, as I incurred half of them.  He had an old truck; I had a used bike.  I did not seek jobs that required me to use his truck (in fact, he didn't let me use it at all).  Again, it's his truck, it's his choice. 
After grad school, I got my professional license in his state and found work there because he wanted to stay there.  After trying to use a bus to get to and from work for a few months, I caved and bought the Subaru on craigslist with money I got from my grandpa's life insurance policy. When I got offered more lucrative jobs more in line with what I wanted to do, I stayed in his town because he wanted to see where opportunities at the bike store (that promised him raises they never gave) went.  Those promises didn't go anywhere and my career (his health and our relationship) suffered. The place I worked dissolved, I was on unemployment (again still paid half the expenses from my unemployment benefits and savings), and it took me six months to find permanent employment.  At the same time, he was working in the bike shop 7 days a week, with no benefits, no raises and would come home grumpy and tired.  We fought alot.  Ultimately I moved out because I felt that, in structuring my life to support his lifestyle and career goals, I had lost sight of my own and didn't feel supported.
A few months later (after I dated other people, found a better therapist, and got my career back on track), we reconnected.  I had a term job that was about to end and was still seeking permanent work in our town, but not having any luck. Then the opportunity to move to Atlanta--where the market rate pays me a third more than our previous town--opened up, so I took it.  We continued to see each other and talk and, when I found out that bike shops here offer health insurance and 401ks because it's a bigger market, I urged him to look into it. 
He moved when he got a job here that 1) had health insurance 2) a 401k (he is not using) and 3) a bigger market for his career.  With rising COL in our previous city but stagnant wages and few benefits, he couldn't continue to live there alone.  So, yes, he moved for me, but it is also a no brainer career move for him.  I bought the property I recently did because the place I was renting (which I was fine with) is too small for all his bikes and vinyl records and 2 people.  When I bought, I used the rest of my grandpa's life insurance payout (which I'd invested) and money I saved over the last 3 years.  I took out the mortgage alone because, with just my credit, the rate was better.
What I love about my partner is that he is different than me.  I hated the white collar types I dated before and after him; I hated their pretension and that they cared about where I got my degrees and how many countries I've lived in.  I love that my partner is from small town, blue collar America but defies its constraints.  For instance, the reason he refuses to work more lucrative construction type jobs (despite his father being a master plumber) is because he hated the people who worked in those fields and considered it a culture of toxic masculinity.  My version of a budget is mint and spreadsheets, his is "don't spend all your money."  We're a very odd pair for sure but there's no one else we can be our weird imperfect selves with.
I guess what I was trying to get at with my original question was how to overcome the external shit, like how retail employees are devalued, or how hard it is for people who come from blue collar backgrounds to conceive of and advocate for an employment context in which they are not taken for granted, or how your parents whack ideas about finances take time to unlearn.  We've been through alot together, I expect we will go through much more (we're getting married next year, low key).   It's not that I don't want to support him or share finances; I've just generally shouldered my financial burdens alone (with the immense privilege of my family's generosity in paying for part of my education and in leaving me something when they died) and assume I always will.  So I don't know how to balance that self-supporting role (which, in this case, is telling me "you pay a higher mortgage so you can avoid using your car!") with a partnership where the other person may need my financial support more often than I need theirs. 
I feel like the message I get (especially as a woman who is more educated or professionally mobile than her partner) is that socio-economic opposites can't ever work.  I want that to not be the case and I guess this whole car thing just brings up those deeper concerns.  I felt like, because MMM is focused on financial self-betterment (and fostering a community that enables that) there might be some interesting insight here.  I guess I'm kind of disappointed to hear alot of the comments echo the negativity I've heard elsewhere about romantic partnerships in which the people were dealt very different socio-economic hands and, consequently, negotiate financial decisions very differently.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Gyosho on July 18, 2018, 10:04:31 AM

Oh yes, I definitely want to be supportive, I just worry that I'm kind of enabling shitty employers to continue to not fully compensate him. 

As for your questions: no he has no savings and no he pays no rent.  I wanted him to be able to focus on paying off credit card debt so when he moved into my place here I just kept paying it but, now that I've bought a place, I'll ask him to pay the HOA fees and insurance (I'll cover the mortgage which is less than my previous rent).

I also vote for breaking up with him. He is acting like your child, not a self-sufficient adult. Make him stand on his own two feet for a while, especially before you consider a further commitment and/or children. He will be a much better person for it. If you want, you could always get back together when he has grown up.

Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: PathtoFIRE on July 18, 2018, 10:06:28 AM
Maybe a solution to both of your problems would be for him to start his own bike shop close to your house. It would certainly mean a financial hit initially, and of course is also risky longer term, but I guess it depends on how financially secure you currently are.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on July 18, 2018, 10:23:54 AM
"...I don't care that he makes less than I do and cannot contribute as much, but this particular scenario, really grates on me because its directly causing a net decrease for me.  I can't infantilize him and tell him he can't do it but, if he doesn't get a raise in the fall and isn't appreciably happier and more relaxed with work, I think I will insist that he start looking for other employers..."

This concerns me.  I'm thinking this guy is too much of an "inconvenience".  A "net decrease", WTF?  He's your partner, you say?  When you bought the house you just bought, did you consult with him?  Did you attempt to include him in a (small) way?  Did you consider buying something appropriate for an $80K income (his $40K plus $40K from your end or some kind of split...), or renting together?  Hey, the GUY WORKS!  There are guys out there (I've met them) that CANNOT EVEN HOLD A JOB OF ANY KIND!

I don't know where you got inconvenience from; I never said that.  As far as your actual question re rent v buy, we considered all the things you mentioned. I was renting a 600 sq ft place that he moved into but, it didn't fit all his belongings so he paid for storage and didn't get to use his stuff (like his records).  I had been considering buying before he moved in so, when he joined me, the places I looked at (including the one he looked at with me) all accommodated his things.  The price of those places was not affordable for someone with 80k unless we bought in the suburbs which would mean we'd have substantial commuting costs (his employer proposed this location change the day I closed).  Rent on similar places was the same as buying, so I bought.  So, no, the issue isn't that he doesn't work or makes less, the issue is WE will be in a financial inferior position because of a job change that came out of nowhere (literally they first proposed it on 7/9), depends on a shared resource and, was not able to negotiate in such a way that it didn't set us back (7/16), and the change is effective 7/21.  I'm not pissed at him; I'm pissed at his employer for springing this on him like this and not giving him any alternative.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: jlcnuke on July 18, 2018, 10:51:36 AM
Quote
It's not that I don't want to support him or share finances; I've just generally shouldered my financial burdens alone (with the immense privilege of my family's generosity in paying for part of my education and in leaving me something when they died) and assume I always will. So I don't know how to balance that self-supporting role (which, in this case, is telling me "you pay a higher mortgage so you can avoid using your car!") with a partnership where the other person may need my financial support more often than I need theirs. 
I feel like the message I get (especially as a woman who is more educated or professionally mobile than her partner) is that socio-economic opposites can't ever work. I want that to not be the case and I guess this whole car thing just brings up those deeper concerns.  I felt like, because MMM is focused on financial self-betterment (and fostering a community that enables that) there might be some interesting insight here.  I guess I'm kind of disappointed to hear alot of the comments echo the negativity I've heard elsewhere about romantic partnerships in which the people were dealt very different socio-economic hands and, consequently, negotiate financial decisions very differently.

I think you've let your experiences and the influence of others guide your responses to the situation more than you might like or realize.

Socio-economic opposites often work. In fact, most successful (professionally) people I know have spouses who are in a completely different income category. This is why there are so many stay-at-home parents imo. One spouse's income prospects are so low that the cost of paying for childcare makes their net income from going to work approach zero (or worse in some cases). This is generally the woman in most relationships, but far from always.

The fact is your significant other has few marketable skills and doesn't have any high-demand skills that would result in a lucrative career in a short period of time.  $40k is about the norm salary for a retail manager in a small to medium sized business. Since his job doesn't require any significant education or specific skills, he's fairly easily replaceable and thus will not "generally" be treated as a highly valued employee that an employer needs to "work with to retain".

The relationships can work with people of very disparate incomes. The comments here about our perceptions on your relationship weren't based on there being an income imbalance so much as they were based on the way you appear to be handling the situation; i.e. seeming to focus on "you" and how it hurts "you" financially as opposed to being happy for him".

Had your post read:
"SO got a promotion, but it means he has to commute and the pay isn't really much better, but it's what he wants and will make him happy, how should we deal with the new commute?"
or
"I think my SO's employer is taking advantage of him, here's what they did, because I don't think his compensation went up as much as it should, how can he address this? Should he start looking elsewhere? Is he just stuck dealing with it? What would you do in his situation?"

then I think the conversation here would have been very different. Your posting instead seemed to read more like:
"my undereducated SO took a crappy position that doesn't pay enough and now he's going to use my car, making me stuck at my home on weekends, to work a job that may or may not even go anywhere and his pay raise for this promotion isn't even covering the depreciation on my car, and now I'm stuck paying the difference and that's not good for my finances".

It's because of the tone and way things were stated that we are interpreting your posts in the way you see. Perhaps that isn't how you meant things or what you meant things to sound like, or perhaps it was an unconscious undertone that you didn't realize was there, but that's what it looks like to me and I think others as well.


Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: formerlydivorcedmom on July 18, 2018, 11:11:21 AM
I feel like the message I get (especially as a woman who is more educated or professionally mobile than her partner) is that socio-economic opposites can't ever work.  I want that to not be the case and I guess this whole car thing just brings up those deeper concerns.  I felt like, because MMM is focused on financial self-betterment (and fostering a community that enables that) there might be some interesting insight here.  I guess I'm kind of disappointed to hear alot of the comments echo the negativity I've heard elsewhere about romantic partnerships in which the people were dealt very different socio-economic hands and, consequently, negotiate financial decisions very differently.

This is bunk.  I agree with a lot of the other comments that the way you are looking at some of this may be the problem.

I'm a well-educated professional woman.  My current husband was a mechanic for 20 years. When we met, I made almost 4x what he did.   He never made close to $40k - but he had no debt, had a decent 3-bedroom apartment without roommates, owned a car, and paid child support for his daughter.  A few years after we got married he quit his job to become a part-time SAHD/full-time college student.  He now has a Bachelor's degree and his first job...and he still makes just under $40k (but his job is physically easier and has PTO!).  He could have gotten a job making $5k more...but he really wanted to work in this particular industry, and in the grand scheme of things the money didn't make that big a difference for us to meet our goals..

Our relationship works because

You and your SO are in a grey zone right now - engaged and living together but not married yet.   There are things I'd recommend for a married couple that wouldn't necessarily make sense for you.  So you need to work together to figure out what the finances will look when you get married (joint or separate?), and make sure you have agreed-upon goals and that you are both in the right mental place to make this relationship work.

And I'd tell him to get his own inexpensive car.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: HPstache on July 18, 2018, 11:23:12 AM
I feel like the message I get (especially as a woman who is more educated or professionally mobile than her partner) is that socio-economic opposites can't ever work.  I want that to not be the case and I guess this whole car thing just brings up those deeper concerns.  I felt like, because MMM is focused on financial self-betterment (and fostering a community that enables that) there might be some interesting insight here.  I guess I'm kind of disappointed to hear alot of the comments echo the negativity I've heard elsewhere about romantic partnerships in which the people were dealt very different socio-economic hands and, consequently, negotiate financial decisions very differently.

How in the world do you come to this conclusion?  I feel as if you want this to be the problem, so you're making it the problem.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: GrumpyPenguin on July 18, 2018, 11:35:33 AM
I'm actually surprised at all the negativity here too, and all the jumping to conclusions I see.

If it were me, I'd look closer at the 54 cent/mile IRS rate that you were using for your math, and understand that it doesn't apply here. Instead, estimate the real number for you.  For a 10 year old car, I suspect it'll come up to a per mile rate that is less than the $5k raise over a year.  Once that is done, he should offer to cover those costs as being the reasonable thing to do.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Retire-Canada on July 18, 2018, 11:39:52 AM
Maybe a solution to both of your problems would be for him to start his own bike shop close to your house. It would certainly mean a financial hit initially, and of course is also risky longer term, but I guess it depends on how financially secure you currently are.

The joke in the bike industry goes...How do you make a small fortune owing a bike shop? Start with a big fortune. ;)
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on July 18, 2018, 11:46:19 AM
Quote

Had your post read:
"SO got a promotion, but it means he has to commute and the pay isn't really much better, but it's what he wants and will make him happy, how should we deal with the new commute?"
or
"I think my SO's employer is taking advantage of him, here's what they did, because I don't think his compensation went up as much as it should, how can he address this? Should he start looking elsewhere? Is he just stuck dealing with it? What would you do in his situation?"

then I think the conversation here would have been very different. Your posting instead seemed to read more like:
"my undereducated SO took a crappy position that doesn't pay enough and now he's going to use my car, making me stuck at my home on weekends, to work a job that may or may not even go anywhere and his pay raise for this promotion isn't even covering the depreciation on my car, and now I'm stuck paying the difference and that's not good for my finances".

It's because of the tone and way things were stated that we are interpreting your posts in the way you see. Perhaps that isn't how you meant things or what you meant things to sound like, or perhaps it was an unconscious undertone that you didn't realize was there, but that's what it looks like to me and I think others as well.

Did you read my original post? I stated: "His commuting costs were also zero....until recently when his employer wanted to promote him to manage a different location which is 19 miles from where we live (in the suburbs) and not easily accessible via transit or bike given the delight that is Atlanta suburban traffic.  They've offered to give him a $5000 raise ($40k from $35k)."
That is LITERALLY ""SO got a promotion, but it means he has to commute and the pay isn't really much better, but it's what he wants and will make him happy, how should we deal with the new commute?"
I think (for whatever reason) people are making alot of assumptions about my tone that are just flat out not supported by the actual words I wrote.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on July 18, 2018, 11:50:04 AM
I'm actually surprised at all the negativity here too, and all the jumping to conclusions I see.

If it were me, I'd look closer at the 54 cent/mile IRS rate that you were using for your math, and understand that it doesn't apply here. Instead, estimate the real number for you.  For a 10 year old car, I suspect it'll come up to a per mile rate that is less than the $5k raise over a year.  Once that is done, he should offer to cover those costs as being the reasonable thing to do.
Thank you! And some of the more helpful money-centric (as opposed to people basically critiquing my relationship) posts yesterday got us to do just that.  Which was really helpful.  I hate cars and never want to be a 2 car household and we both prioritize reducing our environmental impact. But, if this has an end goal in sight that is more in line with our finances and values, I am on board.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: GrumpyPenguin on July 18, 2018, 12:00:30 PM
I'm actually surprised at all the negativity here too, and all the jumping to conclusions I see.

If it were me, I'd look closer at the 54 cent/mile IRS rate that you were using for your math, and understand that it doesn't apply here. Instead, estimate the real number for you.  For a 10 year old car, I suspect it'll come up to a per mile rate that is less than the $5k raise over a year.  Once that is done, he should offer to cover those costs as being the reasonable thing to do.
Thank you! And some of the more helpful money-centric (as opposed to people basically critiquing my relationship) posts yesterday got us to do just that.  Which was really helpful.  I hate cars and never want to be a 2 car household and we both prioritize reducing our environmental impact. But, if this has an end goal in sight that is more in line with our finances and values, I am on board.

Yeah, this sounds pretty straight forward.  Try something like this:
http://artofbeingcheap.com/calculator/

(I haven't used it, just quick internet search, probably want to check reasonableness).  Nice, I'm also in a one car household (it is owned by my long term girlfriend).  I hardly ever drive the car, but if I did, I'd definitely want to be paying the fair share of using it.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: jlcnuke on July 18, 2018, 12:06:31 PM

Had your post read:
"SO got a promotion, but it means he has to commute and the pay isn't really much better, but it's what he wants and will make him happy, how should we deal with the new commute?"
or
"I think my SO's employer is taking advantage of him, here's what they did, because I don't think his compensation went up as much as it should, how can he address this? Should he start looking elsewhere? Is he just stuck dealing with it? What would you do in his situation?"

then I think the conversation here would have been very different. Your posting instead seemed to read more like:
"my undereducated SO took a crappy position that doesn't pay enough and now he's going to use my car, making me stuck at my home on weekends, to work a job that may or may not even go anywhere and his pay raise for this promotion isn't even covering the depreciation on my car, and now I'm stuck paying the difference and that's not good for my finances".

It's because of the tone and way things were stated that we are interpreting your posts in the way you see. Perhaps that isn't how you meant things or what you meant things to sound like, or perhaps it was an unconscious undertone that you didn't realize was there, but that's what it looks like to me and I think others as well.

Did you read my original post? I stated: "His commuting costs were also zero....until recently when his employer wanted to promote him to manage a different location which is 19 miles from where we live (in the suburbs) and not easily accessible via transit or bike given the delight that is Atlanta suburban traffic.  They've offered to give him a $5000 raise ($40k from $35k)."
That is LITERALLY ""SO got a promotion, but it means he has to commute and the pay isn't really much better, but it's what he wants and will make him happy, how should we deal with the new commute?"
I think (for whatever reason) people are making alot of assumptions about my tone that are just flat out not supported by the actual words I wrote.

Yes, I did read those TWO sentences, or ~15% of the original. Hence where I got the information for the suggested postings....

I also read the other 85% of the post, about 5%being was you saying you want him to be happy and most of the rest seeming to complain (or state negative facts) about his income/jobs and/or the impact on you and your money.

Hence why my suggested post left the other 85% out of it as that's where the "alot of replies" discussing your relationship seem to have come from. As I said, maybe you didn't mean to come across that way, but the number of posters that thought you did come across that way is quite numerous so it isn't just one person inventing something in their head that no one else sees in the words you posted.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: charis on July 18, 2018, 12:14:05 PM
Had your post read:
"SO got a promotion, but it means he has to commute and the pay isn't really much better, but it's what he wants and will make him happy, how should we deal with the new commute?"
or
"I think my SO's employer is taking advantage of him, here's what they did, because I don't think his compensation went up as much as it should, how can he address this? Should he start looking elsewhere? Is he just stuck dealing with it? What would you do in his situation?"

then I think the conversation here would have been very different. Your posting instead seemed to read more like:
"my undereducated SO took a crappy position that doesn't pay enough and now he's going to use my car, making me stuck at my home on weekends, to work a job that may or may not even go anywhere and his pay raise for this promotion isn't even covering the depreciation on my car, and now I'm stuck paying the difference and that's not good for my finances".

It's because of the tone and way things were stated that we are interpreting your posts in the way you see. Perhaps that isn't how you meant things or what you meant things to sound like, or perhaps it was an unconscious undertone that you didn't realize was there, but that's what it looks like to me and I think others as well.
Did you read my original post? I stated: "His commuting costs were also zero....until recently when his employer wanted to promote him to manage a different location which is 19 miles from where we live (in the suburbs) and not easily accessible via transit or bike given the delight that is Atlanta suburban traffic.  They've offered to give him a $5000 raise ($40k from $35k)."
That is LITERALLY ""SO got a promotion, but it means he has to commute and the pay isn't really much better, but it's what he wants and will make him happy, how should we deal with the new commute?"
I think (for whatever reason) people are making alot of assumptions about my tone that are just flat out not supported by the actual words I wrote.

Tone aside, none of the comments, as I read them, have indicated that socio-economic opposites can't ever work.  That is a conclusion that you have jumped to, for some reason.  People are saying that YOU need to consider whether YOUR relationship is working for YOU.  Many of the posters have point to their own relationship where incomes are very different, including myself - so they are obviously working. 

It's not simply negativity to suggest that your posts are exhibiting a me v. him vibe, rather than a partnership vibe.  But it sounds like this mentality was set early on in your relationship.  In my partnership, we look at the total household income and make joint financial decisions accordingly (not broken down by percentage of income).  Some couples have separate finances and it works for them.  You have to decide what works for you.  It sounds like you might be holding some resent because you always paid your own way, but your spouse doesn't intend to do the same.  That is something you need to get on the same page about asap.

Finally, you can't change the market value of retail work.  You can suggest your spouse apply for higher paying jobs and/or go back to school, but getting upset about it isn't helping your spouse.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Dee18 on July 18, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
When I lived in Atlanta (years ago) many employers allowed domestic partners to be on the employee's health insurance.  I have no idea if that is still true, but just wanted to mention it in case that's away for you all to save money that could then go for transportation.

I'll also add, I think couples can arrange their money any way they want, as long as they are both happy with it.  If they are not happy with it-or one is not-meeting with a neutral (counselor or financial advisor) just a couple times could be very helpful.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Candace on July 18, 2018, 02:12:13 PM
It sounds a little to me like the OP is dealing with some feelings of resentment. When she was a poor student, she paid half her way even though her partner had an income. During this time, she was not allowed to use her partner's truck. A whole bunch of events and trade-offs ensued.

....

Now that the tables are somewhat turned, where she actually bought a house partially to accommodate his belongings, and her perception is he seems to assume he's entitled to use her truck to commute, leaving her without a vehicle in the Atlanta suburbs (not exactly bike-friendly), in order to take a job transfer she's not sure is actually in his best interest or theirs. When she was a student she couldn't use his vehicle, but now he expects to use hers on a daily basis.

From a wider perspective, I hear a constant drip of anxiety that his background and his skill/education level are at least somewhat playing into what the OP might see as un-advantageous decision making pattern on her partner's part. My perception is that she is anxious that this pattern will end up affecting her and their relationship disproportionately (e.g., him basically making her car his car, leaving her without a car, so he can pursue his job). There is a little bit of negativity and more than a little bit of "mine vs. his" mentality going on, which might be a self-defense mechanism brought on partially due to her not completely accepting his pattern of decision-making as part of who he is. They actually split up and got back together in the past, and the split happened after she spent some time sacrificing her career opportunities in order to stay with him in a small town. When she decided to pursue a good career opportunity in another place, he ended up following her partially because it made financial sense for *him* to do so.

So... although on a personality and day-to-day level, she says they have a fantastic relationship, it sounds like the financial and practical side of things is a little bit shakier in terms of whether they have a match. She seems to feel that his background and the level of opportunities he has partially play into a pattern of non-optimal decision-making. I'm guessing she is afraid that pattern will continue and engender bigger problems in the future.

OP, perhaps you should at least consider having, er, a long engagement? That doesn't mean break up. That means let the financial things play out for a year or two and see how you think he's going to be as a partner 10, 20, 50 years from now. Partner means all the good stuff and all the bad stuff. Forever.

I say this as someone who's had to make peace with my DH's approach to money. My DH doesn't save much of anything. All the long-term planning is up to me. He could make more and save more, but he chooses not to. He doesn't buy anything for himself. He's a white collar professional but serves the "under-served" most of the time, and is incredibly generous with his time and goes incredibly easy on the billing. One absolutely key thing from my perspective, that makes our relationship work, is that he's unlikely to be a huge drain on my expected financial outlays on a year to year basis. We have an arrangement that works for us for our ongoing expenses. I FIRE'd last year. He probably won't retire for several years. In the long term, I expect it will be my stash that supports both of us when he decides to retire, because I can't count on him to accumulate. I've accepted that, although I don't understand or sometimes agree. What's the stash for, if not to share?

Your partner will probably never approach his career and money the same way you do. You have fundamentally different ways of looking at money and career. Since I have gone through this myself, I think I can recognize it in others. The question is, are you going to be happy with accommodating his approach? Does your relationship *as a whole work*, even if you're not happy with his approach to money? Even if you end up contributing more? Is he going to expect you to float him, and how much of that are you willing to do/can you do while having a healthy relationship that works for you?
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: FIFoFum on July 18, 2018, 02:33:16 PM
Lots of good advice already.

I think it's realistic to consider both that:

- OP is using a professional/white collar mindset about how things work in retail/blue collar jobs that ignores partner's reality and lived experience. The low pay or poor work conditions aren't likely a consequence of partner failing to "show gumption" or ask for raises, for example.

AND

- partner seems comfortable automatically shifting the cost of living true to their values to someone else (here - it's OP). It's fine to say you don't want to work a less fulfilling higher pay job or to reject entire fields of work for toxic culture. It's another thing to make these choices and expect someone else will foot the bill of making this work.

What doesn't make sense is OP blaming the employers here. The OP is not subsidizing the business practices. OP is subsidizing partner's choices. Period.

OP - it sounds like you're on the path to good communication with your partner, which is really what this comes down to. I agree with those above who said it's really a conversation about your choices and boundaries (e.g., having your car) and how to blend your finances & decisions as a workable couple. If you're constantly having resentment related to how you were treated before, I'd look into what's changed since you and partner got back together and really let go the past. If you're having resentment about stuff that is ongoing, that's something for a conversation - or MANY - with your partner.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Hargrove on July 18, 2018, 03:22:45 PM
Also, I don't know that there's much you can do to get retail employees treated as "not expendable," except to have great relationships with really good bosses. Being financially independent so that you can't be taken advantage of easily is also helpful, but won't change the nature of retail work.

It's fine to reject environments of toxic masculinity on his part, but hopefully it motivates towards (something else). I don't see running a bike shop as anything shameful OR virtuous.

Income imbalance in a relationship is pretty common. Nearly total imbalance used to be the norm. You may need to identify new boundaries and rules in the modern era, but there's no reason an income imbalance can't be overcome by parties willing to overcome it.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: one piece at a time on July 18, 2018, 03:29:59 PM
He should ask his boss if he can drive a company vehicle to and from work, or even between the two stores with the final leg of the commute done by walking/biking (solving the parking as well). I'm sure there are deliveries going between the stores from time to time and likely that the van has already been purchased.

FWIW my wife earns nothing other than passive income on the investments held in her name, this doesn't come up in conversations about my work!
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: galliver on July 18, 2018, 07:21:19 PM
I think even when people keep largely separate finances, it can sometimes be hard to disentangle the exact financial impacts people have on each other as partners in a couple. Is it your bf's choice of job that is forcing this issue of a car commute, or is it your choice of housing? If you weren't part of the equation, is it possible he would find a housing arrangement biking-distance from the new shop?

My higher-earning bf followed me halfway across the country (I wish it was for a lucrative job, but actually my PhD advisor moved schools...). His work wasn't interrupted, but it was a more expensive area, we basically needed a car, and some moving expenses weren't covered. We did improve in a few categories (food, utilities) and no longer had to travel to see each other, so our base expenses, somewhat surprisingly, barely changed. But in the more optional stuff, whether it's getting things for the apartment, entertainment, eating out, travel, etc. there is definitely a degree of influence on each other and I suspect it mostly bumps expenses up... I haven't felt right either denying him a thing or experience he wants or the pleasure of my company if I could afford it, but I also haven't always felt right saying "if you want it, you pay for it." When it's something I know I will enjoy or use, doing so makes me feel like I'm taking advantage. (To that end, I have also insisted we  contribute to joint expenses 50/50 and not income-based split, as long as said expenses were IMO reasonably within my/our budget).

I'm not necessarily saying you are bumping your bf's expenses upwards, perhaps you are both the higher earner and the more frugal one in the partnership. Perhaps he lives with you rent-free, or you split shared expenses by relative income which might account for any spendier choices you make based on your income. You haven't said. But I think before jumping to "his potential commute would impact my bottom line," it's worth contemplating how your choices impact his career options, transportation options, expenses, and so forth. You talk about "your money" and "his money" which  makes me think you don't have your expenses completely pooled...in which case why is the cost of his commute coming out of "your money" (or your car's worth) and not out of his discretionary expenses, anyway? My bf technically owns our car, but we've been sharing all the running expenses (gas, insurance, repairs, registration) in return for my right to drive the car if/when I need to. I have no idea if it works out perfectly mathematically, but it seems fair to us. Even if I'm not directly contributing to the depreciation, I'm offsetting his costs for insurance, etc. that he'd have to pay in full otherwise. I don't know if you already do something like that, or if it would work for you; you're welcome to consider it.

With respect to an income imbalance generally...that's not at all an unusual situation historically, I'm sure you realize what I mean. How is your situation fundamentally different than that your grandparents likely experienced? How do your expectations differ from their expectations of each other, and why? To this end I liked the advice of @FIFoFum and @Candace. It's kind of unclear to me what the problem is...if your partner really is a lazy bum who wants to live above his means using your money, or if he contributes in other ways that you aren't seeing/appreciating while focusing on the money, or if you're unhappy with your current standard of living and want him to make more, or if you're happy with your lifestyle but something inside you rebels against the idea of supporting/subsidizing your partner...maybe you were generally raised with very self-reliant ideals and expectations, maybe it's a gender-roles thing and it seems if you are making more and he benefits (even indirectly), he's taking advantage? I think it matters a lot what the situation is...the first one is a huge red flag. The latter ones, I think you could work/think your way out of...you're collectively making $160k/year together (and I assume there are raises in your future if not his). You're worrying about a possible change of something like $1-2k/year ($10.5k miles at $0.54, less $5k raise minus some taxes)...in my field, that's measurement error! You'll be ok if you want to be!
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Radagast on July 18, 2018, 10:31:14 PM
I feel like the message I get (especially as a woman who is more educated or professionally mobile than her partner) is that socio-economic opposites can't ever work.  I want that to not be the case and I guess this whole car thing just brings up those deeper concerns.  I felt like, because MMM is focused on financial self-betterment (and fostering a community that enables that) there might be some interesting insight here.  I guess I'm kind of disappointed to hear alot of the comments echo the negativity I've heard elsewhere about romantic partnerships in which the people were dealt very different socio-economic hands and, consequently, negotiate financial decisions very differently.
It has long been recognized that there is a vocal "pro-divorce" crowd here who immediately suggests ending a relationship at the first sign of disagreement or difficulty. Feel free to ignore them at your convenience and do what is best based on your first hand knowledge of your situation.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Villanelle on July 19, 2018, 12:14:10 AM
Even your follow up posts smacks of judgement. (The comment about how he's not using his 401k, for example.)

I think you want to be someone who doesn't care what your partner does or makes but you are not that person.  So you pay lip service to it, but you can't actually integrate the concept in to your life because it isn't true to your feelings. 

I don't think you necessarily need to break up with him.  But I think you need to be far more honest with yourself and with him about your feelings surrounding money, and this is even more true since you plan to marry.  Maybe he will get that raise.  I suspect that if he does, he is likely reaching the high end of his earning potential.  Ever.  Sure, he might get lucky, but he has a skill set that is a dime a dozen, from the sounds of it, and has nothing about it (danger, unpleasant conditions, etc.) that makes it worth much on the labor market.  So this is your life with him, probably forever.  *If* he gets that $5-8k raise, and that is the only raise he sees for the next decade, excepting *maybe* a couple percent a year for inflation, can you *truly* live with that?  if so, under what terms?  Personally, I'd think I'd be okay with a medium-income earner (which is what he is), but not if he wasn't contributing to rent and transportation expenses, among other things.  I'd be okay paying more than 50%, but never, ever 100% when he has the means to contribute.  I've seen several friends split things based on % of income.  If you make 75% of the household income, you pay 75% of the bills.  This seems fair and reasonable, though there are several other fair and reasonable ways to divide things as well.  Generally, "I pay all of X, Y, and Z and you pay none, even though you have a reasonable income" isn't one of them and few people are going to live that way long term and not feel resentment (for the higher earner/payer) or shame and excessive obligation and perhaps resentment at not getting as much of a say (for the low earner/non-payer).  And based on your posts, it seems like you are feeling the things associated with the latter, but you are trying to tell yourself you are okay with it, rather than dealing with it and having hard conversations in which you guys might have some very difficult and awkward disagreements.

You aren't doing yourself, him, or your relationship any favors but not being more candid and by not acknowledging that you clearly *do* have some negative feelings about the current set up.  It does seem a bit off to me that as a student, you paid your way, but as a lower (than you) income earner, he is not.  You aren't a greedy bitch for not being okay with that.  It does seem inequitable and unreasonable.  If that's what you feel, that's fine and normal and reasonable.  But that situation is that way because you've let it be.  So no longer let it be.

In your shoes, I think I'd tell him that in 3 months, he needs to have transportation, and that once his transportation is sorted out, you really need him to start contributing to the mortgage, and that you propose (but are willing to negotiate or try a different approach is he has other suggestions) a % of his income proportion to the % of his income that makes up your total household income. 

Also, it sounds like you really need to hash out things like shared expenses. (What about when the a/c dies or you need a new roof?) And especially retirement.  I don't think this relationship is fatally flawed by any means, but if you don't address your clear resentments head on, you may well be dealing it a fatal blow.  Similarly, if he isn't willing to step up and start using is sufficient income to actually contribute to the things in life he uses, he may be killing the relationship, but if that is the case, the sooner you know the better.

Good luck.  Brutal assessment and the resulting conversations can be painful and tough, but it's what is necessary. 
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Noodle on July 19, 2018, 06:41:27 AM
A lot of posters have given good advice about the apparent relationship dynamics here so I will just say--it looks like your financial issues are partly coming from the fact that you are in a weird grey area, where you are sort of merged but sort of separate. In a relationship where everything is "ours" it would be natural for the partner with the longer commute to take the newer car on the days when he's commuting (or the bigger car when he needs to transport the kids, or the car closer to the end of the driveway to go to the grocery store). In a relationship where everything is financially separate, you'd drive him to the used-car lot to pick out the beater he's going to buy to get to work and otherwise stay out of it. In this in-between area, everything has to be negotiated so you have to have really great communication skills and trust and will probably have to have some uncomfortable conversations to work things out. I think you will be happier if you pick a lane and commit to the advantages and disadvantages of it.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: bognish on July 19, 2018, 12:07:28 PM
I have no idea what 19 miles in Atalanta look like, but he works in a bike shop. He must be able to get a great deal on a commuter ebike. Maybe he uses the car on weekdays and bike on the weekend? Seems like a great way to sell them to suburban commuters "hey I commute here on my ebike". Take the job as a trial period and see if you both can make the split car/bike commute work for 4 months. If you are not happier and the raise has not occurred reevaluate and come up with a new plan. Its not like this has to be a one time decision you are stuck with for 20 years.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: jlcnuke on July 19, 2018, 01:42:06 PM
I have no idea what 19 miles in Atalanta look like, but he works in a bike shop. He must be able to get a great deal on a commuter ebike. Maybe he uses the car on weekdays and bike on the weekend? Seems like a great way to sell them to suburban commuters "hey I commute here on my ebike". Take the job as a trial period and see if you both can make the split car/bike commute work for 4 months. If you are not happier and the raise has not occurred reevaluate and come up with a new plan. Its not like this has to be a one time decision you are stuck with for 20 years.

Atlanta traffic is absolutely terrible. I won't ride my motorcycle in the city or even the suburbs anywhere near rush hour (which starts about 5:30am and lasts ~3 1/2 hours) because of fear for my safety. There are almost no bike lanes, there is no room, there are almost no commuters that even look for other cars before changing lanes, much less a bicyclist, etc.  If it were a couple miles in some of the nicer suburbs, I'd recommend biking anyway probably. Anywhere near the city? I wouldn't consider it at normal traffic times without extenuating circumstances.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: one piece at a time on July 19, 2018, 03:55:49 PM
I have no idea what 19 miles in Atalanta look like, but he works in a bike shop. He must be able to get a great deal on a commuter ebike. Maybe he uses the car on weekdays and bike on the weekend? Seems like a great way to sell them to suburban commuters "hey I commute here on my ebike". Take the job as a trial period and see if you both can make the split car/bike commute work for 4 months. If you are not happier and the raise has not occurred reevaluate and come up with a new plan. Its not like this has to be a one time decision you are stuck with for 20 years.

Atlanta traffic is absolutely terrible. I won't ride my motorcycle in the city or even the suburbs anywhere near rush hour (which starts about 5:30am and lasts ~3 1/2 hours) because of fear for my safety. There are almost no bike lanes, there is no room, there are almost no commuters that even look for other cars before changing lanes, much less a bicyclist, etc.  If it were a couple miles in some of the nicer suburbs, I'd recommend biking anyway probably. Anywhere near the city? I wouldn't consider it at normal traffic times without extenuating circumstances.

...a little off topic, but I've always found that the worse the traffic is, the safer it is on a motorbike. Filter to the front at lights; zip off to the next set of traffic; wait for the next red light; repeat.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: jlcnuke on July 19, 2018, 04:22:27 PM
I have no idea what 19 miles in Atalanta look like, but he works in a bike shop. He must be able to get a great deal on a commuter ebike. Maybe he uses the car on weekdays and bike on the weekend? Seems like a great way to sell them to suburban commuters "hey I commute here on my ebike". Take the job as a trial period and see if you both can make the split car/bike commute work for 4 months. If you are not happier and the raise has not occurred reevaluate and come up with a new plan. Its not like this has to be a one time decision you are stuck with for 20 years.

Atlanta traffic is absolutely terrible. I won't ride my motorcycle in the city or even the suburbs anywhere near rush hour (which starts about 5:30am and lasts ~3 1/2 hours) because of fear for my safety. There are almost no bike lanes, there is no room, there are almost no commuters that even look for other cars before changing lanes, much less a bicyclist, etc.  If it were a couple miles in some of the nicer suburbs, I'd recommend biking anyway probably. Anywhere near the city? I wouldn't consider it at normal traffic times without extenuating circumstances.

...a little off topic, but I've always found that the worse the traffic is, the safer it is on a motorbike. Filter to the front at lights; zip off to the next set of traffic; wait for the next red light; repeat.
If that was remotely legal here if maybe consider it... But probably not as someone would cut you off or open their door etc here if they saw that happening.

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Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Calvawt on July 19, 2018, 05:45:08 PM
ebella-  I read your initial post and had some takeaways, but the context you added in your lengthy reply cleared up all of that.  I think sometimes choices can be negatively monetarily, but still positive overall.  Remember to see the big picture, a few thousand each year won't make your FIRE date much different, but it could make a big difference to you or your SO's happiness.  If he doesn't prioritize savings as much (401k example), just realize you have to let it land in the middle sometimes, not just on the side of your preference.

I make a ridiculous salary.  If my wife went back to work, even with her college degree, she would make maybe 15% of what I do.  I have had to accept that it is our income and that was hard for me as a finance person.  I don't always like some of the choices, but she works hard too raising our kids and deserves to be treated as an equal partner.  I realize you are not married, but I think you are getting to the same conclusion.  We still argue about spending and savings sometimes, but I don't take it to heart like I used to.

Good luck!
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: One on July 19, 2018, 07:19:16 PM
Long story short, I make 3 times what my partner does.  I've got a professional degree (and ensuing student debt) and he's a blue collar dude with no degree and some credit card debt (incurred when we were long distance).  We've been together for many years; last year I relocated to a better job market and he came along this year once he got a job in his line of work (bicycles).  I've just purchased my first home in the center of the city so that commuting costs are zero for me because I can take public transit which my employer pays. 
His commuting costs were also zero....until recently when his employer wanted to promote him to manage a different location which is 19 miles from where we live (in the suburbs) and not easily accessible via transit or bike given the delight that is Atlanta suburban traffic.  They've offered to give him a $5000 raise ($40k from $35k).  I'm not happy about this because 1) this does not cover the IRS .54 per mile commuting cost and 2) he will be using my 2008 Subaru outback (he has no car) which I have paid off, intend to drive into the ground, and do not like to get lots of miles or and 3) that is our only car and, because he works on weekends, this means I will have no car on weekends. So basically, I (and my car) are subsidizing this commute which, is, essentially, a net decrease in take his home pay and our joint income.  He is unhappy at the current location where he works and thinks he will be happier at this other location and that it is a step up (as it is management) and its the nature of the bike industry. He also says there will be bonuses and they will look at raises in the Fall.
 I don't disagree with him trying to be happier or move up and I don't disagree that the bike industry is pretty shitty in terms of renumeration.  But I've seen this before in 2 other bike stores.  Last year, he got in credit card debt because he was commuting almost 2 hours a day but he took it because it was the only bike store offering health insurance.  At the bike store before that,where he got no health insurance and which is now probably about to go out of business, he kept being promised raises but they never materialized.  He was not particularly happy with managing either place but he loves bikes and people and, without a college education, can't imagine doing much else.  He could easily get a contracting job but says he would hate that. 
At the end of the day, I want him to be happy but I also feel like, when I bear the costs for this sort of thing, it perpetuates this cycle of him working for employers that are not willing to invest in him and (at some points) have directly stated that they don't need to pay compensate him with a livable wage because I have a good job.  I don't care that he makes less than I do and cannot contribute as much, but this particular scenario, really grates on me because its directly causing a net decrease for me.  I can't infantilize him and tell him he can't do it but, if he doesn't get a raise in the fall and isn't appreciably happier and more relaxed with work, I think I will insist that he start looking for other employers.
My question is, how do people deal with this sort of financial and professional imbalance while respecting that one's partner was born into different advantages and has different professional opportunities?  I'm going to try to have us do a budget tonight and I've laid out my long term goals re: paying off my student debt and mortgage pretty clearly.  I'd like him to have his goals laid out too but I don't want him to feel like I'm giving him some sort of financial ultimatum.  Please help with any stories of your own or advice,

Sounds like a good guy, he has a job, maybe loan him the car.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: carolina822 on July 20, 2018, 12:36:12 AM
   I've just generally shouldered my financial burdens alone (with the immense privilege of my family's generosity in paying for part of my education and in leaving me something when they died) and assume I always will.  So I don't know how to balance that self-supporting role (which, in this case, is telling me "you pay a higher mortgage so you can avoid using your car!") with a partnership where the other person may need my financial support more often than I need theirs.

This part of your post jumped out at me. Yes, you've worked hard and done well, but as you acknowledge, you had privileges and a safety net that your partner doesn't. For someone without a degree or family money that they can fall back on, taking a promotion to management, even if the money isn't all that great, may seem like one hell of a step up in career prospects. It may or may not work out that way, but I'd be hard-pressed to tell the guy to keep turning a wrench instead of moving up in the company for the sake of not having a commute.

 (On a side note, I'm not a clown car person at all, but even living ITP, there is nowayinhell I would live in Atlanta without a car, and there is nofuckingway I would just give mine to someone else every weekend, for whatever reason. 40k is plenty of money to afford a reasonable car and a 20 mile commute.)

I think your boyfriend sounds like a fun person to be around and he doesn't appear to be afraid of working, which is good. I don't think you're some kind of harpy making unreasonable demands either, I just see two people with different life experiences who need to figure out how to work together.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Dee18 on July 20, 2018, 05:13:02 AM
I lived in Atlanta for many years and from my experience I think you were very smart to buy close in.  You probably already thought of this, but I know Marta allows bikes on the subway and on all the buses.  Is there some combination of riding to the bus/train by bike and then riding from the bus/train by bike to the shop that is feasible? My experience was that Marta was only useful for going to downtown and back out, so there may not be, but with every bus now having a bike rack it might work. 
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: charis on July 20, 2018, 07:57:35 AM
   I've just generally shouldered my financial burdens alone (with the immense privilege of my family's generosity in paying for part of my education and in leaving me something when they died) and assume I always will.  So I don't know how to balance that self-supporting role (which, in this case, is telling me "you pay a higher mortgage so you can avoid using your car!") with a partnership where the other person may need my financial support more often than I need theirs.

This part of your post jumped out at me. Yes, you've worked hard and done well, but as you acknowledge, you had privileges and a safety net that your partner doesn't. For someone without a degree or family money that they can fall back on, taking a promotion to management, even if the money isn't all that great, may seem like one hell of a step up in career prospects. It may or may not work out that way, but I'd be hard-pressed to tell the guy to keep turning a wrench instead of moving up in the company for the sake of not having a commute.

 (On a side note, I'm not a clown car person at all, but even living ITP, there is nowayinhell I would live in Atlanta without a car, and there is nofuckingway I would just give mine to someone else every weekend, for whatever reason. 40k is plenty of money to afford a reasonable car and a 20 mile commute.)

I think your boyfriend sounds like a fun person to be around and he doesn't appear to be afraid of working, which is good. I don't think you're some kind of harpy making unreasonable demands either, I just see two people with different life experiences who need to figure out how to work together.

On the car thing, my spouse and I shared a car (mine) for several years before we were married and for a while after that.  We lived close to my job for a chunk of that and I frequently walked to work, by preference, or was dropped off to avoid the crazy downtown parking situation.  Prior to that we took turns dropping each off at school and work, depending on schedule.  Lots of families have to share a car.  It's not ideal, but it's doable if you don't want to get a second car, which we didn't.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: GuitarStv on July 20, 2018, 08:56:12 AM
   I've just generally shouldered my financial burdens alone (with the immense privilege of my family's generosity in paying for part of my education and in leaving me something when they died) and assume I always will.  So I don't know how to balance that self-supporting role (which, in this case, is telling me "you pay a higher mortgage so you can avoid using your car!") with a partnership where the other person may need my financial support more often than I need theirs.

This part of your post jumped out at me. Yes, you've worked hard and done well, but as you acknowledge, you had privileges and a safety net that your partner doesn't. For someone without a degree or family money that they can fall back on, taking a promotion to management, even if the money isn't all that great, may seem like one hell of a step up in career prospects. It may or may not work out that way, but I'd be hard-pressed to tell the guy to keep turning a wrench instead of moving up in the company for the sake of not having a commute.

 (On a side note, I'm not a clown car person at all, but even living ITP, there is nowayinhell I would live in Atlanta without a car, and there is nofuckingway I would just give mine to someone else every weekend, for whatever reason. 40k is plenty of money to afford a reasonable car and a 20 mile commute.)

I think your boyfriend sounds like a fun person to be around and he doesn't appear to be afraid of working, which is good. I don't think you're some kind of harpy making unreasonable demands either, I just see two people with different life experiences who need to figure out how to work together.

On the car thing, my spouse and I shared a car (mine) for several years before we were married and for a while after that.  We lived close to my job for a chunk of that and I frequently walked to work, by preference, or was dropped off to avoid the crazy downtown parking situation.  Prior to that we took turns dropping each off at school and work, depending on schedule.  Lots of families have to share a car.  It's not ideal, but it's doable if you don't want to get a second car, which we didn't.

+1

I shared a car with my wife for the first ten years out of university.  Although coordinating getting to work in the morning was a hassle, it saved us a tremendous amount of money.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: bluebelle on July 20, 2018, 10:25:35 AM
I don't want to start a firestorm, but gender equality still doesn't exist, and there are lots of societal pressures and expectations between men's and women's roles....it's still okay for the 'wife' to have a hobby job, while the big strong man is the breadwinner.  Hell, it's still common for people to talk about men 'babysitting' their own children, and how men 'help out' around the house, like either of those aren't 50% their job.

!e may have come a long way baby, but we're not equal yet.

I make more than double what my husband does, and money is "our" money, but I don't talk raises or bonuses alot with him because I worry that he'll "feel bad". 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4341645/women-lie-about-their-salary/
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: partgypsy on July 20, 2018, 10:32:57 AM
If having him take the car on weekends doesn't work for you, tell him that.  You say you don't want to infantilize him, but that seems to be exactly what you are doing.  Be up front--I really want this job for you, but being stuck without the car just isn't going to work for me.  t.

I agree with this. You seem to have a lot of unvoiced assumptions of what he should be doing, and what he should be spending his money on. You don't want him borrowing your car. But it sounds like you don't want him to get a vehicle because you feel his money should be going to paying off debts.
 
Yes, you are in a relationship, but ultimately he decides what kind of job he wants, what he is willing to be paid, and what he will spend his money on. If borrowing your car is a no go, just tell him. He will need to get alternate transportation up to and including getting his own car. He is not a child. I do feel for you. Moving from a 1 car to a 2 car household sucks.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: charis on July 20, 2018, 11:00:01 AM
I don't want to start a firestorm, but gender equality still doesn't exist, and there are lots of societal pressures and expectations between men's and women's roles....it's still okay for the 'wife' to have a hobby job, while the big strong man is the breadwinner.  Hell, it's still common for people to talk about men 'babysitting' their own children, and how men 'help out' around the house, like either of those aren't 50% their job.

!e may have come a long way baby, but we're not equal yet.

I make more than double what my husband does, and money is "our" money, but I don't talk raises or bonuses alot with him because I worry that he'll "feel bad". 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4341645/women-lie-about-their-salary/

I am confused about what this has to do with the OP's situation.  There may be many men who are still uncomfortable with being out-earned, and that's evidence of a bigger problem I suppose, but the OP hasn't mentioned it being in issue in her relationship.  And for what it's worth, I know many men who, unlike your husband apparently, are quite pleased with their wife's high(er) income.  I happen to run in circles where this is very common.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: expatartist on July 20, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
It sounds a little to me like the OP is dealing with some feelings of resentment. When she was a poor student, she paid half her way even though her partner had an income. During this time, she was not allowed to use her partner's truck. A whole bunch of events and trade-offs ensued.

....

Now that the tables are somewhat turned, where she actually bought a house partially to accommodate his belongings, and her perception is he seems to assume he's entitled to use her truck to commute, leaving her without a vehicle in the Atlanta suburbs (not exactly bike-friendly), in order to take a job transfer she's not sure is actually in his best interest or theirs. When she was a student she couldn't use his vehicle, but now he expects to use hers on a daily basis.

From a wider perspective, I hear a constant drip of anxiety that his background and his skill/education level are at least somewhat playing into what the OP might see as un-advantageous decision making pattern on her partner's part. My perception is that she is anxious that this pattern will end up affecting her and their relationship disproportionately (e.g., him basically making her car his car, leaving her without a car, so he can pursue his job). There is a little bit of negativity and more than a little bit of "mine vs. his" mentality going on, which might be a self-defense mechanism brought on partially due to her not completely accepting his pattern of decision-making as part of who he is. They actually split up and got back together in the past, and the split happened after she spent some time sacrificing her career opportunities in order to stay with him in a small town. When she decided to pursue a good career opportunity in another place, he ended up following her partially because it made financial sense for *him* to do so.

So... although on a personality and day-to-day level, she says they have a fantastic relationship, it sounds like the financial and practical side of things is a little bit shakier in terms of whether they have a match. She seems to feel that his background and the level of opportunities he has partially play into a pattern of non-optimal decision-making. I'm guessing she is afraid that pattern will continue and engender bigger problems in the future.

OP, perhaps you should at least consider having, er, a long engagement? That doesn't mean break up. That means let the financial things play out for a year or two and see how you think he's going to be as a partner 10, 20, 50 years from now. Partner means all the good stuff and all the bad stuff. Forever.

I say this as someone who's had to make peace with my DH's approach to money. My DH doesn't save much of anything. All the long-term planning is up to me. He could make more and save more, but he chooses not to. He doesn't buy anything for himself. He's a white collar professional but serves the "under-served" most of the time, and is incredibly generous with his time and goes incredibly easy on the billing. One absolutely key thing from my perspective, that makes our relationship work, is that he's unlikely to be a huge drain on my expected financial outlays on a year to year basis. We have an arrangement that works for us for our ongoing expenses. I FIRE'd last year. He probably won't retire for several years. In the long term, I expect it will be my stash that supports both of us when he decides to retire, because I can't count on him to accumulate. I've accepted that, although I don't understand or sometimes agree. What's the stash for, if not to share?

Your partner will probably never approach his career and money the same way you do. You have fundamentally different ways of looking at money and career. Since I have gone through this myself, I think I can recognize it in others. The question is, are you going to be happy with accommodating his approach? Does your relationship *as a whole work*, even if you're not happy with his approach to money? Even if you end up contributing more? Is he going to expect you to float him, and how much of that are you willing to do/can you do while having a healthy relationship that works for you?

+1, especially the bolded. Take some more time. If you get married (especially to a partner who earns much less) and things don't work out, it will be financially as well as emotionally devastating.

It's not unusual for women to feel conflicted about earning more than their partners, however modern and egalitarian we might consider ourselves to be https://www.refinery29.com/2017/04/148488/millennial-women-are-conflicted-about-being-breadwinners so cut the OP some slack. I struggled with this with my ex-H who was raised working class - in a different country - and who had an ambivalent relationship with work. He wanted kids but didn't like the strictures of a job (and work visa living overseas) required to support them. He never distinguished between a job and a career, and expected a job would fall into his lap via online applications. When I ran into this article about struggles couples have when marrying between classes https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/tension-couples-marry-across-classes/476742/ it hit home for me.

Best of luck OP as you negotiate your ways through this. He can and should get a car.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: rubybeth on July 20, 2018, 01:08:47 PM
We've been through alot together, I expect we will go through much more (we're getting married next year, low key).   It's not that I don't want to support him or share finances; I've just generally shouldered my financial burdens alone (with the immense privilege of my family's generosity in paying for part of my education and in leaving me something when they died) and assume I always will.  So I don't know how to balance that self-supporting role (which, in this case, is telling me "you pay a higher mortgage so you can avoid using your car!") with a partnership where the other person may need my financial support more often than I need theirs. 

I feel like the message I get (especially as a woman who is more educated or professionally mobile than her partner) is that socio-economic opposites can't ever work.  I want that to not be the case and I guess this whole car thing just brings up those deeper concerns.  I felt like, because MMM is focused on financial self-betterment (and fostering a community that enables that) there might be some interesting insight here.  I guess I'm kind of disappointed to hear alot of the comments echo the negativity I've heard elsewhere about romantic partnerships in which the people were dealt very different socio-economic hands and, consequently, negotiate financial decisions very differently.

I guess I could share my story. I've always out-earned my husband (married nearly 10 years, together for 13). I likely always will. It's absolutely fine, there's no resentment on either side, we pool our incomes so it's just "our money" and I manage the money because I like doing it and he trusts me. He can look at Mint or our spreadsheets whenever, he just isn't bothered to. I'll show him things and talk to him about investments before making them. I don't really see it as me supporting him--it's just our money, and I happen to get paid more for my work than he does. He has always worked harder than me, honestly. He just doesn't happen to get paid as much.

I also brought a lot more debt into the marriage, but we decided to pay off his smaller student loans first, then tackle mine. I think you're letting what others might think get to you. You kind of have to not give a shit that you out-earn your spouse, or turn it around in your thinking to be a positive and not a negative. I'm pretty proud of the work I put in to get where I am in my career, whereas my husband is just getting started in his career (finished a graduate degree in 2016). I look at our combined incomes as an achievement, not just my income, and his income, as separate things.

I can see being annoyed that his employer is mistreating him--that's a fair point, but that's up to him to negotiate. For years, my husband worked in a place that didn't value him, but he said he wanted to stay until his 401k was fully vested and he felt it was time to move on, and I supported him in that decision. He eventually switched to part-time work, and then ultimately quit when he started his graduate school coursework full time.

I grew up middle class and had some definite advantages from my parents, while DH was the opposite--single parent, no-frills childhood. We come from different places financially but we honestly agree on finances most of the time; we discuss large purchases (and to us, anything $100 or more is "large") before making them, we agree on financial goals, etc. Again, I am not bothered that my family has afforded us more opportunities than his family. I don't really keep score in that way. I think you'll need to work on your mind set when it comes to money and "contributing." Don't keep score, don't even try--you'll end up with even more resentment.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Reddleman on July 22, 2018, 01:06:34 PM
I hear the tone here.  But we all know that the internet leaves little nuance.  Since the OP was writing out of frustration, things are bound to come out snarkier than they need to be.  It would have been really interesting to hear what he would have posted from his point of view.

So here's my take- I'm pretty similar to the OP's significant other (actually a certified bike mechanic too, but not working as one!). Let me tell you about it from my perspective.

I'm a teacher, and while I make a decent wage (over the U.S. average) my wife makes more than twice what I do.  I'm in a profession where wages pretty much rise with inflation, and she's the ambitious one.  I out-earned her for exactly one year when we first moved to our current location- then she got a promotion.  The gap has just grown since then.  So I come from a relationship with a pretty big financial imbalance in favor of the female earner, and it's definitely possible!  In fact, I know of several couples in long-term relationships (some for decades) where women regularly and consistently out-earn their SOs.

1. I'm not going to lie.  Society expects men to be primary breadwinners.  As much as I'm excited that my wife enjoys her work and is well compensated, it still feels a little "odd" at times.  I wouldn't be surprised if he feels this too, and if you criticize his decisions or treat him like less of an equal in any way, he probably will resent it.  Notice that basically nobody cares if women make less than men in a relationship- it seems "natural". 
2. In my situation, we both have the same level of education, but she works more (ummm. . . teacher summers off!) and has some resentment/jealousy on her part at times. I would be shocked if you don't at times too.  You've done well and it seems like he's kind of slacking.  Well, compared to you, he is!  And so am I.  If this continues to bug you and/or your SO it WILL be an issue. 
3. You really do have to work this out between you in some realistic way.  Don't think this is somehow abnormal.  All people who are in long term relationships at some point have to work out the whole money thing.  It sounds like it's time to hash this out.  EVERY relationship goes through this, and it will continue to evolve over time.  While it's cropping up now because of the new job/car situation, it would have at some other point anyway.

My suggestion is to have a good discussion about it.  When you are both in a good, low stress mood, and figure out where you stand.  If he's anything like me, he'd probably be fine living as a bike mechanic in a 1-2 bedroom apartment and enjoying the mustachian dream.  While we may be a bit skewed reading these forums, $40k a year is a really decent wage, much less for doing something that you actually enjoy.  He might be a little concerned that with your income you might be wanting a different lifestyle than he is comfortable with.  Since you're posting on MMM, I'm assuming you're pretty reasonable with money, but if you haven't had "the talk", he wouldn't necessarily know that.   You have to be realistic about what you both want in the future, and how to get there.

As an aside, in my relationship it works out just fine because she hates thinking about money so I've just taken over that part of our lives as part of my "contribution".  I help find ways of saving money, have set us up to max out all of our tax advantaged accounts, etc.  Essentially, she earns it, I help to make it grow.  I also maintain the house, deal with the taxes, and all the other things she hates thinking about.  Your SO probably complements you in many ways, financially and otherwise.  If you both have important roles in the financial part of the relationship, have similar goals, and value each other, it's really pretty wonderful! 

Big issues aside here's some practical advice.  First- if this is a serious, long-term relationship you really should start thinking about it as "our money" to some extent not "yours" and "his".  If he's making $40k and your lifestyle is $80k a year or less (as it should be, right?) all the rest that you make is for investing and growing!  If this means that you both max out your 401ks, he takes home less, and you pick up more of the rent/expenses.  Maybe his first paycheck or two goes towards that (reliable) beater truck for his commute? 

Together you are both doing really well financially- way better than the average U.S. household.  You've got plenty of financial resources to work this out.  As long as you can get on the same page and work towards the same goals, you're in great shape!
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: bluebelle on July 22, 2018, 01:17:37 PM
I don't want to start a firestorm, but gender equality still doesn't exist, and there are lots of societal pressures and expectations between men's and women's roles....it's still okay for the 'wife' to have a hobby job, while the big strong man is the breadwinner.  Hell, it's still common for people to talk about men 'babysitting' their own children, and how men 'help out' around the house, like either of those aren't 50% their job.

!e may have come a long way baby, but we're not equal yet.

I make more than double what my husband does, and money is "our" money, but I don't talk raises or bonuses alot with him because I worry that he'll "feel bad". 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4341645/women-lie-about-their-salary/

I am confused about what this has to do with the OP's situation.  There may be many men who are still uncomfortable with being out-earned, and that's evidence of a bigger problem I suppose, but the OP hasn't mentioned it being in issue in her relationship.  And for what it's worth, I know many men who, unlike your husband apparently, are quite pleased with their wife's high(er) income.  I happen to run in circles where this is very common.

I didn't actually say that my husband had a problem with me making more.   I don't think he does.  The point I was trying to make (albeit unsuccuessfully), was that women still have some very mixed ideas about gender roles.....and maybe the OP has a little of that going on.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: 2704b59cc36a on July 22, 2018, 04:55:38 PM
Get used to supporting him if he doesn't leave the bike shop industry or go find someone with an education and good job.

Maybe a solution to both of your problems would be for him to start his own bike shop close to your house. It would certainly mean a financial hit initially, and of course is also risky longer term, but I guess it depends on how financially secure you currently are.

The bike shop industry is very tough and with high probability it would go out of business.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: SimpleCycle on July 23, 2018, 08:17:40 AM
I had a similar reaction to a lot of the other posters, and I think what I reacted to was the extent to which you feel you have influence and control over his choices.  To me, that does not seem like a healthy relationship dynamic.

I honestly think you need to make peace with his desire to work in the bike industry, despite circumstances you personally wouldn't want to put up with.  It's his passion and his career, and he is an adult and gets to make his own choices.

So if you do that, you also need to come up with a way to approach financial goals equitably (note I don't say equally).  And it's fine if that includes him not having access to your car to commute.  Let him figure out the alternative arrangement (it sounds like you've already made progress here).  The problem overall seems to be that you both want to make your own choices independently of him, and want to influence his choices.  That's not really fair - you need to approach decision making as equals.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: charis on July 23, 2018, 09:45:51 AM
I don't want to start a firestorm, but gender equality still doesn't exist, and there are lots of societal pressures and expectations between men's and women's roles....it's still okay for the 'wife' to have a hobby job, while the big strong man is the breadwinner.  Hell, it's still common for people to talk about men 'babysitting' their own children, and how men 'help out' around the house, like either of those aren't 50% their job.

!e may have come a long way baby, but we're not equal yet.

I make more than double what my husband does, and money is "our" money, but I don't talk raises or bonuses alot with him because I worry that he'll "feel bad". 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4341645/women-lie-about-their-salary/

I am confused about what this has to do with the OP's situation.  There may be many men who are still uncomfortable with being out-earned, and that's evidence of a bigger problem I suppose, but the OP hasn't mentioned it being in issue in her relationship.  And for what it's worth, I know many men who, unlike your husband apparently, are quite pleased with their wife's high(er) income.  I happen to run in circles where this is very common.

I didn't actually say that my husband had a problem with me making more.   I don't think he does.  The point I was trying to make (albeit unsuccuessfully), was that women still have some very mixed ideas about gender roles.....and maybe the OP has a little of that going on.

Then why are you worried that he will "feel bad"?  You didn't explicitly say he had a problem with you making more, but your words certainly implied that he did.  If he didn't have a problem with your income, raises, or bonus, why would you avoid talking about it?  In any event, I still think this an odd leap, re the OP.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: whywork on July 23, 2018, 11:25:34 AM
I'm quite surprised at this thread. There is no love. My wife brings nothing. There are so many in my situation where the wife doesn't work. Is it that when the husband doesn't work or gets paid less it is hard for the wife to take it?

I never even asked my wife once to go find a job. I keep telling her I am happy for you and I want to be in a similar situation (= retire for me).

I see the love is missing in your post. Your belief that husbands should have equal or higher pay than wife is hurting your relationship. What if you were in his situation in the bicycle job and get the promo and your husband who is making 3 times is cribbing about you putting on miles on his car? You guys are not roommates. Think with love. Think of it as your own job and deal in the same way how you would deal. Your husband is not trying to live on you, his salary allows him to live on his own. Just think of this as two people trying to live together than like a roommate situation.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: expatartist on July 23, 2018, 12:20:23 PM
There are so many in my situation where the wife doesn't work. Is it that when the husband doesn't work or gets paid less it is hard for the wife to take it?

It can be, yes. It was for me. I have high expectations of myself, and to be partnered with someone who didn't was eventually unsustainable financially or emotionally.

It's important these conversations are had publicly. These internal and interpersonal conflicts are new in our culture as we hash out fresh challenges in a world where more women are being paid what we're worth, and men are able to expand the definition of masculinity. It's complicated, and not particularly helpful to judge whether a stranger loves their partner from a few paragraphs on the internet.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: whywork on July 23, 2018, 02:51:38 PM
It's complicated, and not particularly helpful to judge whether a stranger loves their partner from a few paragraphs on the internet.

Agreed. I just spoke my mind (which has its own biases and judgements).
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: one piece at a time on July 23, 2018, 03:17:04 PM

a world where more women are being paid what we're worth

Women are paid the least amount possible for them to turn up.  The same is true for men. Other systems have been tried but those folks end up starving to death. On average, many women have chosen jobs that have an ample supply of willing workers which has suppressed wages. When you grow up you might learn why they (on average) chose those jobs.

MOD EDIT: Don't be rude. Forum rule #1
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: MrMoneySaver on July 23, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
I hear the tone here.  But we all know that the internet leaves little nuance.  Since the OP was writing out of frustration, things are bound to come out snarkier than they need to be.  It would have been really interesting to hear what he would have posted from his point of view.

So here's my take- I'm pretty similar to the OP's significant other (actually a certified bike mechanic too, but not working as one!). Let me tell you about it from my perspective.

I'm a teacher, and while I make a decent wage (over the U.S. average) my wife makes more than twice what I do.  I'm in a profession where wages pretty much rise with inflation, and she's the ambitious one.  I out-earned her for exactly one year when we first moved to our current location- then she got a promotion.  The gap has just grown since then.  So I come from a relationship with a pretty big financial imbalance in favor of the female earner, and it's definitely possible!  In fact, I know of several couples in long-term relationships (some for decades) where women regularly and consistently out-earn their SOs.

1. I'm not going to lie.  Society expects men to be primary breadwinners.  As much as I'm excited that my wife enjoys her work and is well compensated, it still feels a little "odd" at times.  I wouldn't be surprised if he feels this too, and if you criticize his decisions or treat him like less of an equal in any way, he probably will resent it.  Notice that basically nobody cares if women make less than men in a relationship- it seems "natural". 
2. In my situation, we both have the same level of education, but she works more (ummm. . . teacher summers off!) and has some resentment/jealousy on her part at times. I would be shocked if you don't at times too.  You've done well and it seems like he's kind of slacking.  Well, compared to you, he is!  And so am I.  If this continues to bug you and/or your SO it WILL be an issue. 
3. You really do have to work this out between you in some realistic way.  Don't think this is somehow abnormal.  All people who are in long term relationships at some point have to work out the whole money thing.  It sounds like it's time to hash this out.  EVERY relationship goes through this, and it will continue to evolve over time.  While it's cropping up now because of the new job/car situation, it would have at some other point anyway.

My suggestion is to have a good discussion about it.  When you are both in a good, low stress mood, and figure out where you stand.  If he's anything like me, he'd probably be fine living as a bike mechanic in a 1-2 bedroom apartment and enjoying the mustachian dream.  While we may be a bit skewed reading these forums, $40k a year is a really decent wage, much less for doing something that you actually enjoy.  He might be a little concerned that with your income you might be wanting a different lifestyle than he is comfortable with.  Since you're posting on MMM, I'm assuming you're pretty reasonable with money, but if you haven't had "the talk", he wouldn't necessarily know that.   You have to be realistic about what you both want in the future, and how to get there.

As an aside, in my relationship it works out just fine because she hates thinking about money so I've just taken over that part of our lives as part of my "contribution".  I help find ways of saving money, have set us up to max out all of our tax advantaged accounts, etc.  Essentially, she earns it, I help to make it grow.  I also maintain the house, deal with the taxes, and all the other things she hates thinking about.  Your SO probably complements you in many ways, financially and otherwise.  If you both have important roles in the financial part of the relationship, have similar goals, and value each other, it's really pretty wonderful! 

Big issues aside here's some practical advice.  First- if this is a serious, long-term relationship you really should start thinking about it as "our money" to some extent not "yours" and "his".  If he's making $40k and your lifestyle is $80k a year or less (as it should be, right?) all the rest that you make is for investing and growing!  If this means that you both max out your 401ks, he takes home less, and you pick up more of the rent/expenses.  Maybe his first paycheck or two goes towards that (reliable) beater truck for his commute? 

Together you are both doing really well financially- way better than the average U.S. household.  You've got plenty of financial resources to work this out.  As long as you can get on the same page and work towards the same goals, you're in great shape!

This is a great post. Couldn't say it any better.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Exhale on July 23, 2018, 04:34:47 PM
Perhaps you and your SO could submit a MMM case study together?
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: use2betrix on July 23, 2018, 08:25:55 PM
I don't want to start a firestorm, but gender equality still doesn't exist, and there are lots of societal pressures and expectations between men's and women's roles....it's still okay for the 'wife' to have a hobby job, while the big strong man is the breadwinner.  Hell, it's still common for people to talk about men 'babysitting' their own children, and how men 'help out' around the house, like either of those aren't 50% their job.

!e may have come a long way baby, but we're not equal yet.

I make more than double what my husband does, and money is "our" money, but I don't talk raises or bonuses alot with him because I worry that he'll "feel bad". 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4341645/women-lie-about-their-salary/

I am confused about what this has to do with the OP's situation.  There may be many men who are still uncomfortable with being out-earned, and that's evidence of a bigger problem I suppose, but the OP hasn't mentioned it being in issue in her relationship.  And for what it's worth, I know many men who, unlike your husband apparently, are quite pleased with their wife's high(er) income.  I happen to run in circles where this is very common.

That is great for your relationship and your circle. That being said, statistics have shown that the majority of men AND women still believe it’s more important for the man to be the sole breadwinner.

In fact, I agreed with the post you quoted here and a while back had a post typed up nearly similar and decided not to post it. I feel it may be relative here.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: charis on July 23, 2018, 08:50:46 PM
I don't want to start a firestorm, but gender equality still doesn't exist, and there are lots of societal pressures and expectations between men's and women's roles....it's still okay for the 'wife' to have a hobby job, while the big strong man is the breadwinner.  Hell, it's still common for people to talk about men 'babysitting' their own children, and how men 'help out' around the house, like either of those aren't 50% their job.

!e may have come a long way baby, but we're not equal yet.

I make more than double what my husband does, and money is "our" money, but I don't talk raises or bonuses alot with him because I worry that he'll "feel bad". 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4341645/women-lie-about-their-salary/

I am confused about what this has to do with the OP's situation.  There may be many men who are still uncomfortable with being out-earned, and that's evidence of a bigger problem I suppose, but the OP hasn't mentioned it being in issue in her relationship.  And for what it's worth, I know many men who, unlike your husband apparently, are quite pleased with their wife's high(er) income.  I happen to run in circles where this is very common.

That is great for your relationship and your circle. That being said, statistics have shown that the majority of men AND women still believe it’s more important for the man to be the sole breadwinner.

In fact, I agreed with the post you quoted here and a while back had a post typed up nearly similar and decided not to post it. I feel it may be relative here.

Yes, it is nice. But I'm not trying to apply my personal circumstances on that point to the OP's. Given that she is planning to marry someone who has been making, and will continue to make substantial less money, I was seeking some clarification on what seemed like an almost sexist assumption. I totally get that other people read it differently, but that's how it sounds to me.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: expatartist on July 23, 2018, 09:29:47 PM

a world where more women are being paid what we're worth

Women are paid the least amount possible for them to turn up.  The same is true for men. Other systems have been tried but those folks end up starving to death. On average, many women have chosen jobs that have an ample supply of willing workers which has suppressed wages. When you grow up you might learn why they (on average) chose those jobs.

Completely uncalled for. You know nothing about me, my life, or my career choices.

Perhaps you and your SO could submit a MMM case study together?

Great idea.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: gerardc on July 23, 2018, 11:05:39 PM
Could you strive for more independence, i.e. don't tell him what to do, but keep finances separate and pay half of the expenses each. This way if he doesn't get a raise or doesn't save, he'll still have to be financially responsible of his part of the deal; and seeing you doing better and eventually FIRE might motivate him. I don't think you should share the stash and the FIRE, he needs to work for it, otherwise he won't be motivated to even carry his own weight. You can still make compromises on things that affect both of you (as in where to live) but in general I'd say establish clear boundaries. I'm in a similar situation as you and that's what I'm doing. Not sure what the consequences will be long-term though... is it weird to only have 1 person FIRE but not the other? IMO it's fine, because you have made the efforts and he hasn't, he should WANT to work until 65 or make the necessary adjustments... anything else is a red flag. Even if you can support him, IMO it's better not, similarly to rich parents not spoiling their kids too much.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: sokoloff on July 24, 2018, 06:14:21 AM
Quote from: http://www.eugenewei.com/blog/2012/11/28/amazon-and-margins
If you have bigger lungs than your competitor, all things being equal, force them to compete in a contest where oxygen is the crucial limiter. If your opponent can't swim, you make them compete in water. If they dislike the cold, set the contest in the winter, on a tundra.
Forcing equal split of expenses in the face of substantially unequal incomes is stacking the deck terribly unfairly against the lower-earning member of the contest/partnership. You have to decide whether you're more interested in winning a contest or having a successful partnership.

We chose partnership, and in choosing that, I couldn't hold any grudge that she wasn't stacking as many Benjamins as I was. If I was the type to be prone to "keeping score" like that or holding a grudge, it would be critical for me to break up with her and find someone of relatively equal earning capacity, so that we could compete together effectively in the 401K Olympics. My life would be so much worse if that's the path I chose. (This I think is where the vocal "break up with him" comments are coming from, assuming they're motivated out of practicality rather than spite.)

Could you strive for more independence, i.e. don't tell him what to do, but keep finances separate and pay half of the expenses each. This way if he doesn't get a raise or doesn't save, he'll still have to be financially responsible of his part of the deal; and seeing you doing better and eventually FIRE might motivate him. I don't think you should share the stash and the FIRE, he needs to work for it, otherwise he won't be motivated to even carry his own weight. You can still make compromises on things that affect both of you (as in where to live) but in general I'd say establish clear boundaries. I'm in a similar situation as you and that's what I'm doing. Not sure what the consequences will be long-term though... is it weird to only have 1 person FIRE but not the other? IMO it's fine, because you have made the efforts and he hasn't, he should WANT to work until 65 or make the necessary adjustments... anything else is a red flag. Even if you can support him, IMO it's better not, similarly to rich parents not spoiling their kids too much.
The fundamental problem with this arrangement is that "half the expenses" are likely to be extremely comfortable for the higher earner and taking nearly all the oxygen out of the room for the lower earner.

DW (back when she was DG) and I had an income spread of about 4x. If we'd been rigorous about splitting expenses down the middle, she'd have been starved of any opportunity to save enough money to FIRE or at a minimum, I'd have been saving 8-15x what she was saving. This would, in turn, have hurt me, because she would have been incented to reduce/stop 401K contributions in order to "keep up" and we would have felt constrained to not buy a $1.2MM house (that 10 years later is worth over $2.2MM) because she couldn't afford half of it.

Instead, we looked at what was equitable (not equal) and did what made sense for us. She insisted on paying at least her old rent figure and half the groceries/utilities. I paid the rest of the house, airplane trips, etc. It allowed both of us to live better and save better than if we'd taken a hard-line "every bill, right down the middle" approach. Now, she works from home part-time in her field and works as a mom (more than) full-time. We live in the house we (I at the time) bought 10 years ago, that has a nice little fenced in yard for the kids and dog and has added more to our net worth than anything else we could have done over that 10 year period. All the money is "ours". We manage it day-to-day in separate pots, but we each have access (logically and practically) to all of it. We're probably FI now and I plan to retire around the time the kids are finishing high school. That works for us. Maybe it wouldn't work for others.

Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: gerardc on July 24, 2018, 09:22:34 AM
Could you strive for more independence, i.e. don't tell him what to do, but keep finances separate and pay half of the expenses each. This way if he doesn't get a raise or doesn't save, he'll still have to be financially responsible of his part of the deal; and seeing you doing better and eventually FIRE might motivate him. I don't think you should share the stash and the FIRE, he needs to work for it, otherwise he won't be motivated to even carry his own weight. You can still make compromises on things that affect both of you (as in where to live) but in general I'd say establish clear boundaries. I'm in a similar situation as you and that's what I'm doing. Not sure what the consequences will be long-term though... is it weird to only have 1 person FIRE but not the other? IMO it's fine, because you have made the efforts and he hasn't, he should WANT to work until 65 or make the necessary adjustments... anything else is a red flag. Even if you can support him, IMO it's better not, similarly to rich parents not spoiling their kids too much.

There are countless relationships out there where one partner works and the other doesn’t or works very little and the ‘stache is shared.
You can’t generalize. It depends on the couple.

For one couple, fair might mean each reaching FI independently and at different times, for another couple that might seem crazy. You do you, but be open to the idea that what’s right for you could be utterly wrong for others.

That’s why it’s up to each couple to be open and honest enough to be able to figure out what’s right for them in particular, and it’s not always easy to figure out, but I guarantee you there is no single best arrangement for everyone.

I'm totally open and not generalizing, I was just suggesting an alternate way that makes things very simple, since the OP seems struggling. They should be open to new ideas too ;)
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: gerardc on July 24, 2018, 09:42:03 AM
Quote from: http://www.eugenewei.com/blog/2012/11/28/amazon-and-margins
If you have bigger lungs than your competitor, all things being equal, force them to compete in a contest where oxygen is the crucial limiter. If your opponent can't swim, you make them compete in water. If they dislike the cold, set the contest in the winter, on a tundra.
Forcing equal split of expenses in the face of substantially unequal incomes is stacking the deck terribly unfairly against the lower-earning member of the contest/partnership. You have to decide whether you're more interested in winning a contest or having a successful partnership.

We chose partnership, and in choosing that, I couldn't hold any grudge that she wasn't stacking as many Benjamins as I was. If I was the type to be prone to "keeping score" like that or holding a grudge, it would be critical for me to break up with her and find someone of relatively equal earning capacity, so that we could compete together effectively in the 401K Olympics. My life would be so much worse if that's the path I chose. (This I think is where the vocal "break up with him" comments are coming from, assuming they're motivated out of practicality rather than spite.)

Could you strive for more independence, i.e. don't tell him what to do, but keep finances separate and pay half of the expenses each. This way if he doesn't get a raise or doesn't save, he'll still have to be financially responsible of his part of the deal; and seeing you doing better and eventually FIRE might motivate him. I don't think you should share the stash and the FIRE, he needs to work for it, otherwise he won't be motivated to even carry his own weight. You can still make compromises on things that affect both of you (as in where to live) but in general I'd say establish clear boundaries. I'm in a similar situation as you and that's what I'm doing. Not sure what the consequences will be long-term though... is it weird to only have 1 person FIRE but not the other? IMO it's fine, because you have made the efforts and he hasn't, he should WANT to work until 65 or make the necessary adjustments... anything else is a red flag. Even if you can support him, IMO it's better not, similarly to rich parents not spoiling their kids too much.
The fundamental problem with this arrangement is that "half the expenses" are likely to be extremely comfortable for the higher earner and taking nearly all the oxygen out of the room for the lower earner.

DW (back when she was DG) and I had an income spread of about 4x. If we'd been rigorous about splitting expenses down the middle, she'd have been starved of any opportunity to save enough money to FIRE or at a minimum, I'd have been saving 8-15x what she was saving. This would, in turn, have hurt me, because she would have been incented to reduce/stop 401K contributions in order to "keep up" and we would have felt constrained to not buy a $1.2MM house (that 10 years later is worth over $2.2MM) because she couldn't afford half of it.

Instead, we looked at what was equitable (not equal) and did what made sense for us. She insisted on paying at least her old rent figure and half the groceries/utilities. I paid the rest of the house, airplane trips, etc. It allowed both of us to live better and save better than if we'd taken a hard-line "every bill, right down the middle" approach. Now, she works from home part-time in her field and works as a mom (more than) full-time. We live in the house we (I at the time) bought 10 years ago, that has a nice little fenced in yard for the kids and dog and has added more to our net worth than anything else we could have done over that 10 year period. All the money is "ours". We manage it day-to-day in separate pots, but we each have access (logically and practically) to all of it. We're probably FI now and I plan to retire around the time the kids are finishing high school. That works for us. Maybe it wouldn't work for others.

I understand, and when I say splitting equally, I don't mean being an ass about it and counting every penny. I earn about 10x my partner (and she works FT) and while I'm striving for equality of payments, in practice I end up paying for all restaurants and small/medium ticket items so that we can afford to go. I'm trying to keep those as one-off "exceptions" (even though I admit they happen regularly) and the goal is still equality as much as possible. For example when deciding a place to live or a trip to organize, I'd take her finances into consideration and only go if she can afford her part, and I wouldn't inflate our lifestyle too much that the responsibility would be on me to provide. It's more of a mental frame that I'm not providing for her so that she doesn't get used to it, because it seems like a slippery slope. I don't mind the frugality part so I don't feel like I'm missing out at all.

As for your example of house value doubling in 10 years, is this reproducible? You could have done almost the same with the stock market. This seems like a big part of luck to me, so this shouldn't be used to base your decisions off. Don't forget you could have lost money in that deal too.

All in all, I prefer the idea of keeping assets separate in a relationship, except all that's related to the common living arrangement. In Canada, you can actually easily select this arrangement when you marry ("separation as to property" matrimonial regime) with no special prenup, and the family home and other common assets ("family patrimony") are automatically shared. This seems like the best, safest way to move forward and a lot of young couples are using this regime these days.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Slow&Steady on July 24, 2018, 10:39:06 AM
I read a lot of score keeping going on in OP's post but I also understand trying to tally a score when you feel frustrated and want to see if things are fair.

I am another woman on here that makes more than my husband (always have and probably always will).  We started dating 14 years ago when I was still in college (he never went to college), in those 1st 8 years he quite/got fired/was demoted 8 different times and even when I was still in school I bailed him out of financial holes.  We (if you are keeping score this is mostly me) paid off his truck loan before seriously tackling any of my debt because it had the highest interest rate.  We also focused on cleaning up his collection accounts before focusing on my debt, to the point that 12 years after finishing school I will finally finish off my student loans this year.  Before we had kids the discussion was always that I didn't want to stay home and that I had the better income, so when kids came he took a huge step back to be more available for the kids.  He has started a business now that was a negative to our financial life for the 1st 1.5 year.  He has picked out several different lemon cars that we have had to put extra money into and eventually had to replace due to unreliability.

I can write much more but the point is that even though I can list all of these things down and if I wanted to I could keep score on how he has benefited (or not benefited) my life financially, we would not still be together if I had been keeping score.  I would be resentful, and he would never feel "good enough".  If you are going to stay in this relationship, you need to stop keeping score.  If you want to to have use of your car on weekends then tell him that. Don't vent to a bunch of internet strangers unless you are also communicating these things to your SO, your relationship will eventually fall apart if you keep score and refuse to communicate your frustrations/joys/goals/heartaches/etc.   
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: one piece at a time on July 25, 2018, 06:43:17 PM

Women are paid the least amount possible for them to turn up.  The same is true for men. Other systems have been tried but those folks end up starving to death. On average, many women have chosen jobs that have an ample supply of willing workers which has suppressed wages. When you grow up you might learn why they (on average) chose those jobs.
[/quote]

Completely uncalled for. You know nothing about me, my life, or my career choices.


I was responding to your statement about average wage inequality, not your choices. You presented a position that "women are now being paid what they deserve" which sent me off down a rabbit hole. I believe that the merits of the free market and reality of many prioritising non-financial aspects of employment conditions were discussed previously on this board but the mods had to shut it down because many many people were profoundly wrong and wouldn't accept it.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: sokoloff on July 25, 2018, 06:49:18 PM
I believe that the merits of the free market and reality of many prioritising non-financial aspects of employment conditions were discussed previously on this board but the mods had to shut it down because many many people were profoundly wrong and wouldn't accept it.
It’s too bad that not everyone can be as open-minded and politely and respectfully discuss differing points of view as you evidence...
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: expatartist on July 25, 2018, 10:06:35 PM
I believe that the merits of the free market and reality of many prioritising non-financial aspects of employment conditions were discussed previously on this board but the mods had to shut it down because many many people were profoundly wrong and wouldn't accept it.
It’s too bad that not everyone can be as open-minded and politely and respectfully discuss differing points of view as you evidence...

Advising a stranger to 'grow up' because you disagree with them is polite and respectful? Oh - ok...

ETA: Can't imagine why that previous thread [haven't read it] might've been shut down by mods -
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Kyle Schuant on July 27, 2018, 01:09:57 AM
how do people deal with this sort of financial and professional imbalance
It's a common misconception that relationships are about equality. They're not. When Christopher Reeve broke his neck, his wife needed to care for him 24 hours a day. He tossed a lot of money the way of people researching fixing spinal cords, said he was determined to walk again, and "when I get better, she has a lot of loving coming to her." He didn't recover, of course, and died. Their relationship was not equal, but it was most certainly loving, and a happy marriage.


Today he will earn less in some job he wants to change to. Tomorrow you'll want to spend tens of thousands on postgrad study, or take unpaid leave to have a baby or go overseas for six months without him. Or maybe not. But it'll never be equal.

You pool your resources, beginning with a joint bank account for basic expenses, and each of you supports the other in pursuing whatever crazy dreams you have - and you work on some shared dreams, too.



Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: MDfive21 on July 30, 2018, 10:54:30 AM
well that's a lot of ink spilled to answer what should be a super simple question.

obviously finances are separate!  prob should be until/if they get married.

BF can't use GF's car to get to work.
BF makes $40k at new job.  not bad!
BF can afford to buy a car, because no other bills.
BF should buy a car, preferably cash, but since finances are separate, this is one instance when taking on a $5k debt for basic work transportation is reasonable.  He can pay it off in less than 6 months EASY.

Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Prairie Stash on July 31, 2018, 12:41:04 PM
"...I don't care that he makes less than I do and cannot contribute as much, but this particular scenario, really grates on me because its directly causing a net decrease for me.  I can't infantilize him and tell him he can't do it but, if he doesn't get a raise in the fall and isn't appreciably happier and more relaxed with work, I think I will insist that he start looking for other employers..."

This concerns me.  I'm thinking this guy is too much of an "inconvenience".  A "net decrease", WTF?  He's your partner, you say?  When you bought the house you just bought, did you consult with him?  Did you attempt to include him in a (small) way?  Did you consider buying something appropriate for an $80K income (his $40K plus $40K from your end or some kind of split...), or renting together?  Hey, the GUY WORKS!  There are guys out there (I've met them) that CANNOT EVEN HOLD A JOB OF ANY KIND!

I don't know where you got inconvenience from; I never said that.  As far as your actual question re rent v buy, we considered all the things you mentioned. I was renting a 600 sq ft place that he moved into but, it didn't fit all his belongings so he paid for storage and didn't get to use his stuff (like his records).  I had been considering buying before he moved in so, when he joined me, the places I looked at (including the one he looked at with me) all accommodated his things.  The price of those places was not affordable for someone with 80k unless we bought in the suburbs which would mean we'd have substantial commuting costs (his employer proposed this location change the day I closed).  Rent on similar places was the same as buying, so I bought.  So, no, the issue isn't that he doesn't work or makes less, the issue is WE will be in a financial inferior position because of a job change that came out of nowhere (literally they first proposed it on 7/9), depends on a shared resource and, was not able to negotiate in such a way that it didn't set us back (7/16), and the change is effective 7/21.  I'm not pissed at him; I'm pissed at his employer for springing this on him like this and not giving him any alternative.
To be fair, the employer always gives the alternative...he can quit. There is no such thing as an employer giving no alternatives, however its probably not an alternative you like. 

Although you say your pissed at his employer, he's probably excited for the promotion and I imagine its hard to hear all this negativity about his new job. You're really pissing in your boyfriends cornflakes.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: MDfive21 on August 01, 2018, 07:55:13 AM
well that's a lot of ink spilled to answer what should be a super simple question.

obviously finances are separate!  prob should be until/if they get married.

BF can't use GF's car to get to work.
BF makes $40k at new job.  not bad!
BF can afford to buy a car, because no other bills.
BF should buy a car, preferably cash, but since finances are separate, this is one instance when taking on a $5k debt for basic work transportation is reasonable.  He can pay it off in less than 6 months EASY.

or, as they say in the cycling community, HTFU and ride your bike to work.  ;)
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: use2betrix on August 01, 2018, 04:51:23 PM
I don't want to start a firestorm, but gender equality still doesn't exist, and there are lots of societal pressures and expectations between men's and women's roles....it's still okay for the 'wife' to have a hobby job, while the big strong man is the breadwinner.  Hell, it's still common for people to talk about men 'babysitting' their own children, and how men 'help out' around the house, like either of those aren't 50% their job.

!e may have come a long way baby, but we're not equal yet.

I make more than double what my husband does, and money is "our" money, but I don't talk raises or bonuses alot with him because I worry that he'll "feel bad". 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4341645/women-lie-about-their-salary/

I am confused about what this has to do with the OP's situation.  There may be many men who are still uncomfortable with being out-earned, and that's evidence of a bigger problem I suppose, but the OP hasn't mentioned it being in issue in her relationship.  And for what it's worth, I know many men who, unlike your husband apparently, are quite pleased with their wife's high(er) income.  I happen to run in circles where this is very common.

That is great for your relationship and your circle. That being said, statistics have shown that the majority of men AND women still believe it’s more important for the man to be the sole breadwinner.

In fact, I agreed with the post you quoted here and a while back had a post typed up nearly similar and decided not to post it. I feel it may be relative here.
I'm going to disagree with the bolded unless you can show me statistics. I dont think I've ever met a man who wanted his female SO to be a SAH spouse/homemaker while the male is the sole breadwinner other than you (nor have I met any women who want that) - unless raising kids. Even then many men and women still prefer they both work outside the home.

However I do agree that many men (and perhaps a lot of women too) may feel emasculated if the the woman earns more. I believe this is much much less common with younger people though who have shunned (fortunately imho) the idea of traditional gender roles.

 I'm not saying that is the case with the OP as she seems OK with SO earning less but some of her comments seem that she doesn't view his choices as valid and important as hers. Maybe because of the earnings difference.

Maybe not “sole breadwinner” but...

“Roughly seven-in-ten adults (71%) say it is very important for a man to be able to support a family financially to be a good husband or partner. By comparison, 32% say it’s very important for a woman to do the same to be a good wife or partner, according to a new Pew Research Center survey.

Men are especially likely to place a greater emphasis on their role as financial providers. While a nearly equal share of men and women say a man needs to be able to provide for his family to be a good husband or partner (72% and 71%, respectively), men are less likely than women to say the same about women. Just a quarter of men say this is very important for a woman to be a good wife or partner, compared with 39% of women.“



http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/20/americans-see-men-as-the-financial-providers-even-as-womens-contributions-grow/
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: SomedayStache on August 01, 2018, 06:37:11 PM
Posting mostly to follow because despite the many negative posts here there has also been some insightful sharing.

I struggle with occasionally falling into resentment of my husband and his freedom to make choices of work because he enjoys it: line cook, assistant at a plant nursery, woodcarver.  His list of jobs reads like a bunch of fun hobbies, and indeed they are.  Meanwhile I'm stressed and working OT.

15 years ago while I was working split shifts as a waitress in college, maintaining a 3.8 GPA in a full course load of engineering classes, and feeling so stressed that I developed shingles he was...working for a beekeeper and getting paid in honey and marijuana.

It was probably over a decade before I realized that I had a lot of resentment which stemmed from this time period.  It took me that long to put it into words and it took another few years and the help of a marriage counselor before I explained this to him.  He was surprised because he had seen that time period from an entirely different perspective.  Because he's a wonderful empathic person my sharing of this old resentment led to some very helpful discussions.  Not a silver bullet, because this is still an issue that sometimes bothers me.  Nowadays  I've found it helpful to be very forthright with him when I'm falling into this old pattern of feelings.  It doesn't usually change his actions but does change my attitude just getting my feelings out into the open.

Good luck finding him a reasonable car!
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: SomedayStache on August 01, 2018, 06:41:50 PM


I would break up with him.

If I was to limit myself to women who were “near my pay range” I’d be an awfully lonely guy. In fact, I have a near flawless relationship with my wife who’s never made more than like 20-30k and typically doesn’t work at all because I don’t find it worthwhile.

Hah!  Really hope your SO also doesn't find it "worthwhile". Otherwise you shouldn't be posting relationship advice.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Kyle Schuant on August 01, 2018, 06:53:12 PM
If we worried what the majority were thinking, then we wouldn't be on this forum at all.

Fuck the majority. Do what is right for you.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: use2betrix on August 02, 2018, 07:26:05 AM


I would break up with him.

If I was to limit myself to women who were “near my pay range” I’d be an awfully lonely guy. In fact, I have a near flawless relationship with my wife who’s never made more than like 20-30k and typically doesn’t work at all because I don’t find it worthwhile.

Hah!  Really hope your SO also doesn't find it "worthwhile". Otherwise you shouldn't be posting relationship advice.

Lol. Umm yes, it’s a joint decision.

So far this year I’ve made about $170k and we’re 7 months into it. I’ll probably end up around $265k for the year.

If she worked full time she’d make maybe? $30k a year. Let me correct myself, “we” don’t find that worth it to “us.”
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 03, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
From a wider perspective, I hear a constant drip of anxiety that his background and his skill/education level are at least somewhat playing into what the OP might see as un-advantageous decision making pattern on her partner's part. My perception is that she is anxious that this pattern will end up affecting her and their relationship disproportionately (e.g., him basically making her car his car, leaving her without a car, so he can pursue his job). There is a little bit of negativity and more than a little bit of "mine vs. his" mentality going on, which might be a self-defense mechanism brought on partially due to her not completely accepting his pattern of decision-making as part of who he is. They actually split up and got back together in the past, and the split happened after she spent some time sacrificing her career opportunities in order to stay with him in a small town. When she decided to pursue a good career opportunity in another place, he ended up following her partially because it made financial sense for *him* to do so.

Your partner will probably never approach his career and money the same way you do. You have fundamentally different ways of looking at money and career. Since I have gone through this myself, I think I can recognize it in others. The question is, are you going to be happy with accommodating his approach? Does your relationship *as a whole work*, even if you're not happy with his approach to money? Even if you end up contributing more? Is he going to expect you to float him, and how much of that are you willing to do/can you do while having a healthy relationship that works for you?
[/quote]

You nailed it.  I'm not concerned about contributing more than him (I mean I pay twice what he does for our home) nor am I concerned about paying my own way.  I think it's fair that I paid my half in law school and would never have asked him to do the same just like I never expected to use his old truck to commute to work and bough my car (his truck was unreliable, a gas guzzler, and I had cash to buy my own).  However, I have financial goals,.  One of them, is paying off my student loans and another is paying down our mortgage.  So my concern isn't him using something of mine, but the impact it will have on my ability to be debt free by 40 and stop working jobs I hate.  I've tried to explain this to him but his response is "just tell me how much I need to pay" but I'm reluctant to set a figure for my goals because I feel like his credit card debt (which he has yet to tell me the exact amount of but it's less than $10k) needs to be prioritized.  I don't want to be putting him in a tough place financially but I also don't want to be nagging him to take care of his financial issues so that we can work on our goals together (because we have a better chance of acheiving them as a team).   
I don't think his decision-making patterns will ever be like mine which I understand.  I just think he's been socio-culturally ingrained to avoid dealing with long-term planning or these types of detailed analysis of finances and logistics.  People who grew up with little money or financial literacy often think about money in the short term, as in, do I have enough to pay my bills right now, not in terms of what they want things to look like in a few month or years.  And I think there's some fear there too, because he hadn't been taught about it and considers it something only wealthy people know about. It's really hard to address this with him and not have him react with avoidance (I don't know the numbers right now, I'm too tired to talk about this, just tell me what to pay) or hostility (you're so annoying).  That's what I'm getting at when I ask people for insights. 
And to clarify, we don't live in the suburbs and don't want to.  He works there (though he would never live there).  We've been doing the new car arrangement for 2 weeks now and it's been . .ok.  I've had to get help from my boss and friends to get to and from work on the weekend when public transit doesn't feel safe after hours (there was a shooting on my walk from the train a few months ago that's probably made me more scared than I should be to go into work alone after hours when there's no security). Socializing has been ok since most of my friends have been understanding when I ask them to give me a ride or come over since I can't get to their places (not train or bike accessible) easily.  I was told I could not longer do the Big Sister volunteering program (a requirement is to have car access on weekend which I don't) which was upsetting.  I love not driving; it's the only reason I paid more to live in the only part of Atlanta where I can walk, take marta or bike to work, church, doctors, groceries, park.  I thought that was important to him to, but I think, after years of having access to other people's cars (mine and, after I moved, his parents), he doesn't prioritize walkability and transit as much as I do.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 03, 2018, 01:01:38 PM


Sounds like a good guy, he has a job, maybe loan him the car.
[/quote]
Yes and I did.;)
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 03, 2018, 01:19:08 PM
I still think it would be helpful to know exactly what the parameters of the debt are here on both sides (are we talking 10k or 100s of ks?), and what the general monthly budget is.  I'm having a hard time getting my brain around why buying a beater is such a big deal for a household earning 160k/year.
My debt: $283,000.  That's my federal student loans for college and law school (ranging from 4-7%) and my new mortgage (4.85%)
His debt: Chase Sapphire Preferred credit card debt which he says is a little less than $10,000 (though he hasn;t yet told me exact number.  I assume interest is 15-20% as it's Chase Sapphire.
My income: $94,000 and is set by statute (as in, not negotiable and no raises or bonuses) and I get no 401k but I max out my HAS so after taxes it's like $5000 a month. 
His income: $40,000.  I don't know what his monthly take home is after taxes since he just got the raise.  He doesn't contribute to any kind of retirement.
My monthly expenses: my IRA, $900 student loan, $1000 mortgage and $200/mo property taxes $500/yr for my law license/taxes/bar dues. My cellphone, clothes, travel, Amazon.
His monthly expenses: The HOA and homeowners insurance $400.  He also pays for netflix, $300 for 2 storage units, his cellphone and his credit card debt. I'm going to have him pay for all car stuff except we will split insurance and registration
Split pretty evenly: groceries, household stuff, utilities.  He prefers to pay when we go out together so I usually end up covering more of our at home costs like toilet paper and detergent.

But to answer your question: It would cost $100 a month for parking; we only have one deeded spot and there is no secure street parking.  Also I don't want us to have 2 cars.  Being a two car household is so against my values (as in, I'm the sort of person who's not having children because of carbon impact)
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: me1 on August 03, 2018, 01:55:01 PM
I saw your responses above and I am reticent to comment, because you don't seem to take well to comments that don't say what you want to hear. I guess most of us don't, though.
I made about 6 times more than my SO last year. We don't have any of the issues you seem to have. we also have one car and agree how to use it. if we lived somewhere where we couldnt make it work, we'd buy another. 
So, to me this reads like your question is about a lot deeper issues than whether to let him use your car. And you seem like you are letting him use it but are still resentful about it. You can't do your volunteering because of it, you have to bother your friends for rides... etc. How is your relationship otherwise?
Resenting him for how he spends money is not really good for a relationship.
 
If you want another way to look at it, you may be making ~2x more money but you have 28x more debt!
That seems like the real hair on fire emergency, and a lot more higher priority than whether he gets a $5K raise or buys a $5k car.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: sokoloff on August 03, 2018, 02:02:38 PM
If you want another way to look at it, you may be making ~2x more money but you have 28x more debt!
That seems like the real hair on fire emergency, and a lot more higher priority than whether he gets a $5K raise or buys a $5k car.
Mortgage debt doesn't count the same as personal debt, IMO. Even student loans for an advanced degree that one uses to make an above-average income need to be considered as "other than a simple numerator/ratio", IMO.

Several of your other points are spot-on, though.

If person A has a car they need in order to live the life they want and person B has the same arrangement (two cars total), it seems disingenuous for person A to then claim that the world is worse off if persons A and B move in together (better for the world/overall carbon footprint) and that after moving in together that they can only make the world right by dropping down to one car between them, which will necessitate person A dropping a charity activity that they previously enjoyed and still feel positively about.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 03, 2018, 02:39:25 PM
I saw your responses above and I am reticent to comment, because you don't seem to take well to comments that don't say what you want to hear. I guess most of us don't, though.
I made about 6 times more than my SO last year. We don't have any of the issues you seem to have. we also have one car and agree how to use it. if we lived somewhere where we couldnt make it work, we'd buy another. 
So, to me this reads like your question is about a lot deeper issues than whether to let him use your car. And you seem like you are letting him use it but are still resentful about it. You can't do your volunteering because of it, you have to bother your friends for rides... etc. How is your relationship otherwise?
Resenting him for how he spends money is not really good for a relationship.
 
If you want another way to look at it, you may be making ~2x more money but you have 28x more debt!
That seems like the real hair on fire emergency, and a lot more higher priority than whether he gets a $5K raise or buys a $5k car.

Oh I agree that my debt is a hair on fire emergency.  But, I thought people were telling me to not keep score?  If we're keeping score, I look at mortgages and student debt differently as long as the person is paying it off with a viable plan.  For me, I'm hoping to double my salary next year when I move out of government, as the reliable public service employment (and loan forgiveness) I went to school to do is fast becoming non-existent.  If I get a job at a firm I could make $190,00 as my base salary and pay off my student loans before the 2020 election (my new goal).  I would never expect him to shoulder the burden of my student loan debt and if we do a pre-nup that will be expliicit.
However, $200,000 of that is debt I took out largely because he moved to be with me and I wanted to accommodate his possessions (5 bikes, a large record collection) and have more space so he's feel happier moving to be with me instead of sharing the studio I rented.  His credit score was not great so I was the only person that applied for the mortgage.  Before we were together, I was very happy to continue renting a studio.  Now that I've bought, I pay less on the mortgage than I did renting less space alone because he pays HOA and insurance without being on the hook for the debt.  I'm trying to make that a win/win. 
The car I don't care about per se, I just am concerned he's not taking financial responsibility for his career and lifestyle choices.  I certainly have taken full reponsibility (to the tune of $283,000) to get the degree for mine and live in a location where (for basically any legal job I have) commuting costs will be zero and commuting time without a car will be less than 30 minutes each way.  I feel like the car is symptomatic of not addressing his life choices in a long-term or strategic way which, in turn, is symptomatic of his background (and I don't fault him for that).  I want to be debt free and able to do work I love and I want that for him too, but I don't see that happening when he's resistant to financial planning.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: me1 on August 03, 2018, 03:00:03 PM
I hear ya, and I may have misread the debt to all be student loans, but it seems it's both house and student loans, so that makes more sense. But either way.... you ARE keeping score. You can't seem to help it.
If you really weren't keeping score none of this would be an issue. But it is. And that's ok, if that's how you feel.
To me it reads like your financial plans are a lot more important to you than the guy. Is that true?
It may be hard to admit to yourself that it is, after all the history you guys shared. But if it is true, than I think the fair thing to do to him and to you would be to let him go.
He is not going to change. His priorities don't seem to line up with yours. Being financially independent seems really important to you. But there is more to it than that. If you will really be making 4 times more than him in a year, how insignificant is the car issue and whether he asks for a raise? What tiny percentage is that going to add up to in your budget at that point?
My SO has the potential to make a lot more than he makes right now (but still probably not as much as me), and he is relatively frugal most of the time.  But I don't really take what he will or won't be making into my calculations.  I have a projected FIRE date based solely on my current salary. It would be great if we could get there faster, but I can't make him ask for a raise (it doesn't even work like that for him), and we still don't know if he will ever land a non-temporary job.  But I want him to be in my life, and I want to make it work for us, not for me.
To me it reads like you are asking relationship not financial questions.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: MKinVA on August 03, 2018, 09:08:53 PM
Why can't you just drive him to work on the weekends? He uses the car during the week while you walk to work, and then drive him on the weekend so you have the car. Many family live for years with only one car. Sure it takes some scheduling and compromise, but it works.

On the relationship, you need to get on the same page. If you don't have the same goals (very specific goals), there will be resentment that will fester and ruin it. You see your future very clearly, it seems. Where does he fit in? How does he enhance that future? Or...
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: catccc on August 03, 2018, 10:14:06 PM
My partner and I have quite the income gap.  For most of our 10 year marriage, when working, he has earned anywhere from $3-20K and I have earned around $80-90K.  Just in the last year he's really stepped it up, grabbing an opportunity and landing a job that gets him almost to 1/2 of my salary, earning 40K.  Which is super exciting because this is big bucks to our family. He's also eligible for a 403b and a 457b, and we put a lot into both of those, so his take home pay is about $160 a month!  But there is no resentment that he always has earned less, or currently saves more (I only have a 401K).  One reason this works is because despite the income gap and varied savings rates, we are both on board for joint FIRE.  We also have 2 kids, and we both took some time being a SAHP, so there's very much a family mentality and not a mine v. yours mentality.  We are in this together.

So I wouldn't be worried about how much he is earning, I would be worried about what his plans are for the future, and whether they are compatible with yours.  Which you've said is the real issue here.
The car I don't care about per se, I just am concerned he's not taking financial responsibility for his career and lifestyle choices.

Talk to him about this.  If he's not on the same page, and this is really important to you, there are a lot of threads about getting your SO on board.  I think it will be a slow process given the lifestyle he has as you currently describe.  But it's worth a try.  Good luck.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: CrustyBadger on August 04, 2018, 06:34:27 AM
Man people love to jump to advising people to break up! That’s so friggin’ intense!

OP, I totally agree that this is a relationship issue and that you and your BF need to ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THIS, but I don’t think that necessitates that you break up just because your relationship has a communication issue that happens to be the most common communication issue in existence.

Fucking hell.
Note to self, don’t mention any goddamn fallibility about my marriage on MMM forum.

Well, it is a very common marital (or relationship) issue, but incompatibility in dealing with finances is also a highly common reason for splitting up.  You can certainly work on discussing how to deal with finances, and come to have common goals surrounding finances. But if you don't, it's not a great way to start out a marriage.

ebella, I wonder if you guys might be interested in doing some preengagement or premarital financial counseling?   Do they have that kind of things where you live?  I don't know what your plans are for marriage, but it seems like you are definitely starting to think somewhat like a joint economic unit.  You mentioned "our" mortgage, for example, and you are making other decisions (like where to live and how to handle debt repayment) thinking of both of your needs.

Premarital financial counseling would be the opportunity for both of you to back up and start from scratch. You would each talk about your individual financial goals and ways of dealing with finances, and why it is important to you.  Then together you would create a plan for how you would prioritize things as a couple. 

Your decisions might make sense for your goals, but his goals might be different.  And you both need to have the same goals to be able to work as a team.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: me1 on August 04, 2018, 06:51:28 AM
Man people love to jump to advising people to break up! That’s so friggin’ intense!

OP, I totally agree that this is a relationship issue and that you and your BF need to ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THIS, but I don’t think that necessitates that you break up just because your relationship has a communication issue that happens to be the most common communication issue in existence.

Fucking hell.
Note to self, don’t mention any goddamn fallibility about my marriage on MMM forum.

I guess I will just STFU and crawl back into my hole. Sorry for having opinions on a post where someone asked for opinions. Knew I should have kept my mouth shut.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Hargrove on August 04, 2018, 11:38:32 AM
@ebella, here's a for instance. I'm not guessing at your situation; this is a post about communicating.

Do you have a fear of working indefinitely in a job you hate? I get a little of that from your last couple posts, but mostly you say the reverse - that you want financial freedom, you want to pay off debt, etc. However, in your mind, you may draw a straight line through these things while he does not.

This is step 1 of talking past each other.

So say HE has a fear, that you don't know about exactly, that he's not quite telling you (so you get avoidance when you bring up the topic). Say he thinks you'll resent him for not handling his bills and retiring early or something, but instead of talking about that, he's talking about the reverse - doing well enough by you financially that you're satisfied.

Here's what happens: you talk about fixing your fear instead of the fear itself.
Now he reads your signal as the beginning of the resentment he's afraid of.
He addresses fixing HIS fear instead of the fear itself.
He loves you, so he just asks you to give him a number to fix it.
"It doesn't work that way" you reply, perhaps reasonably...
"I can't even fix it??" he hears, confirming finances are just another one of life's unsolvable problems...

I am sure if that sounds plausible to you, it's totally not intentional, and that's all normal (and fixable). It's hard to go from a rut to smooth communication sometimes, but the "opener" skillset is talking about how you feel instead of what has to get done. If you try to quit smoking, for example, the goal and the steps to get there are awfully simple, but that doesn't make DOING it any easier.

You have explained in your last couple posts more about how his avoidance makes you feel - have you communicated these things with him? If so, did you explain them along the lines of (for instance) "Can we talk please? Something is bothering me and I hope we can figure it out as a team - it's causing me a lot of stress. I am afraid of working through my life at a job I don't like, and looking at a future, I want us to on the same page about managing money so I don't have to be afraid of that happening. I feel hurt when you avoid me when I bring up finances, because that fear is what I'm trying to address when I do it. I would love you if you repaired bikes or fixed toilets, and that's not the problem - it's not about the number we each pay for things every month, but about how we look at planning a financial future. Is that ok? If not, can we pick a time to talk about it later?"

This does a few things. It gives the option for him to talk about it later, which reduces the stress of the conversation. It confirms your love for him and that this is not a signal towards any fear he may have - basically, it orients the discussion around YOUR feelings, instead of what he may or may not be doing. This is extremely valuable. The response to "help me I'm afraid" is usually very direct and easy to read! It also sets up the conversation for him to talk about how he feels instead of focusing on totally grasping, right now, "the finances." Listen to what he says and reflect it. Don't defend yourself if he says something and you feel hurt - rephrase to be sure you have it correctly first and check with him if you do. He will feel like you care about where he's coming from, and you may be able to both unwind your anxieties about this.

I like to tell the story of driving around happily in a hilly area with lots of curvy roads. My girlfriend at the time was not having a swell ride because she was getting nervous, but she didn't talk about that, she remarked sarcastically about the speed limit and my ability to read. I was angry, because I am like, SO GOOD at reading street signs! Actually, I was angry because I felt I was being blamed for her anxiety about "perfectly reasonable" speeds, and that hardly seemed fair to me. So I said how I felt about her comment, and got her to say she felt unsafe, which I totally didn't want, so I said if she ever felt afraid or unsafe, and she told me that instead of impugning my ability to read, I would always slow down for her. She tried it once, couldn't believe it worked, I wasn't annoyed about the sarcasm anymore... everybody won. But it can be hard to talk about the issue directly, sometimes. We feel more vulnerable doing it, and we can get carried away in completely irrelevant conversations very easily.

Though these "for instances" of talking past each other may not hold bearing on your situation, they're the sort of thing a therapist is supposed to help you do in counseling, and you may find a pre-marriage or couples therapy session extremely helpful. We often think of therapists more like mechanics you go to when something is broken, rather than facilitators for communication and health, but they're way more valuable as the latter.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Hargrove on August 04, 2018, 12:09:52 PM
Quote
N’ah, you have your opinion and I have mine. Who says mine is more valid than yours?

Gah! Paradox!
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Mezzie on August 04, 2018, 04:47:02 PM
Financially, my husband and I are similar to you and your SO. I make over 2x what he does and likely always will. I have a career I love and get life satisfaction from; he has a job that pays bills. He's good at it and has good friends there but has to do extra things to derive life satisfaction. He has less formal education than me and fewer choices despitebeing brilliant. He is bad with money. All of that was true before we got married and I did not expect that to change (good thing, too, since it hasn't).

Before we got married, I helped him pay off his debt (that is, I made a budget for him because he didn't even know about some of his debt, let alone how to pay it off).

After marriage, everything got combined. We each get the exact same personal spending and savings each month despite adding very different amounts to the same pot. What matters is that we both work hard. No one is slacking; I just get paid more per hour. He trusts me to make the family budget, and I update him on it. He makes requests (say, a replacement car) and, if it's possible, I rework the budget to meet those requests. If not, he knows it's true that it can't happen now but that we can work towards it if we agree on certain sacrifices.

We plan to retire the same year. He has some side hobbies that might earn extra income and knows if those reach $X, he can quit his job and we'll still be on track. He also knows that if he becomes overwhelmingly unhappy at his job, he can just quit and we'll figure it out. On my end, I have a disability that he supports me through. It may lead to me not being able to work as much as I do (or at all). Again, if that happens, we'll figure it out. We respect and are dedicated to one another.

I'm the one who worries about and plans for our future. He's the one who makes sure we have fun now. It's a wonderful balance.

Ours is not the only way such a relationship can work, but it is one way, and it semed relevant to share.

On a side note, if not for the disability, we would likely be a one-car family right now as I love public transit. The compromise was a used electric car for me to assuage my carbon footprint guilt a bit. Is $100/mo for parking worth keeping your Big Sister gig? Only you can decide. I'd probably go for it.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: bugbaby on August 04, 2018, 07:11:48 PM
I agree, it's more of a character and relationship issue than an income one. 

If he loves his low paying job, fine. But he sounds beyond entitled, expecting her to cover his housing and now transportation by sacrifing her own money, comfort and boundaries. Even a shade abusive.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Villanelle on August 05, 2018, 08:01:46 PM
You are engaged but he has yet to tell you how much debt he has?

More and more you are giving the impression that the two of you have some serious communication issues, and some uge gaps to fill before you are anywhere close to being in a healthy place from which to enter marriage.  That conversation should take less than five minutes.  So either he doesn't care that it is important to you and can't be bothered to add up the number and share it, or you haven't made it clear that is is important.  I can't see another explanation. 

Then there is the fact that he asks for a number, and you are "hesitant" to provide it.  You guys are crazy if you don't sit down before you take another step toward marriage, and hash out a specific plan for finances going forward--who pays what for what, what triggers a change in that, what retirement looks like for each of you, and more.

It sounds very much like you are afraid to set boundaries with him or make clear and specific requests.  You didnd't just say, "you borrowing my car long term won't work, so I'll lend it to you for X time under Y circumstances, but when that's over you need to have your own transportation."  You haven't said, "tell me how much debt you have" (or if you have he has either disrespected you by ignoring that, or you've given him the impression this isn't a serious or immediate need).  You won't say, "I need you to contribute X toward the bills in order to feel comfortable"  (Or "I propose you provide X and I provide Y", but let's discuss and come up with a specific plan if that doesn't work for you".) 

Seriously. *Talk* to your partner.  And don't be afraid to be assertive.  The worst that could happen is that your relationship crumbles and while that's awful, kicking that awful can down the road makes it more awful, not less.  Express your needs in a calm, reasonable way, be willing to compromise but don't compromise so far that you aren't okay with the final agreement.   But for heavens sake, don't let this stiff continue to linger and fester.  Speak up, be honest and trust your partner to be reasonable and honest himself.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: formerlydivorcedmom on August 06, 2018, 10:43:12 AM
The car I don't care about per se, I just am concerned he's not taking financial responsibility for his career and lifestyle choices.  I certainly have taken full reponsibility (to the tune of $283,000) to get the degree for mine and live in a location where (for basically any legal job I have) commuting costs will be zero and commuting time without a car will be less than 30 minutes each way.  I feel like the car is symptomatic of not addressing his life choices in a long-term or strategic way which, in turn, is symptomatic of his background (and I don't fault him for that).

I think that, in part, you are enabling him.

You won't tell him to get his own car and/or get a job within a short distance of where you work - you handed over your car and stopped doing an activity you love.

You won't tell him how much extra money you would like him to contribute so that you can more easily reach your goals - because you'd rather that he spend his money on HIS debt.  But it's very frustrating for you because you don't know how much debt he has or if that money that he isn't contributing to the household is even going to the debt.  [This would have been a deal-breaker for me - if my H hadn't shared his debt-level with me before he proposed, there would have been no engagement.]

Quote
I want to be debt free and able to do work I love and I want that for him too, but I don't see that happening when he's resistant to financial planning.
What does he want?  It sounds like he's already doing work he loves...

As many of us have said, you need shared goals that are pretty clear.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: carolina822 on August 06, 2018, 01:06:00 PM
However, $200,000 of that is debt I took out largely because he moved to be with me and I wanted to accommodate his possessions (5 bikes, a large record collection) and have more space so he's feel happier moving to be with me instead of sharing the studio I rented.

So, why is he still paying $300 a month on storage units? That's a car payment. Or a few months to save for a beater that can get him to work on the weekends. Or three parking spaces for said car, since that seems to be one of your sticking points on the two car thing. (Yes, I get the environmental impact part too, but ideally the two-car thing wouldn't be long term. Either way, I don't think it's quite fair for you to unilaterally decide he doesn't need a car since you already have one. Nor is it fair for him to assume he can just drive yours whenever. Ok, I'll stop with the car thing now.)

I promise I'm not some conservative "don't live in sin" type, but I do believe strongly that it's a bad idea to combine finances, mortgages, etc. when you're not married or in some other form of legal partnership that protects both parties in the event of a split. I'd say the same thing if you and a friend wanted to buy a rental condo or invest in a startup together. You love this man and enjoy living with him, to the point that you went into debt to buy a house that would accommodate his needs. That's fine - but it's YOUR house, not his. Until you two are able to communicate and either be on the same page financially, or accept that you're never going to be and make peace with that, you need to keep your finances separate. That means that he gets to make his own career decisions and until he buys into the whole "work together as a family" thing or asks for your advice, you need to assume that things aren't going to change and decide whether that's a dealbreaker or not. (I don't know if it would or wouldn't be for me - it's a tough thing, for sure, and I'm sorry you're there right now.)
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: MDfive21 on August 07, 2018, 11:21:42 AM
i don't normally recommend this, but you two are prime candidates for financial peace university.  only because you need to learn how to budget as a team.  i'm 'this close' to dragging my wife to it myself.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 08, 2018, 08:02:00 AM
You are engaged but he has yet to tell you how much debt he has?

More and more you are giving the impression that the two of you have some serious communication issues, and some uge gaps to fill before you are anywhere close to being in a healthy place from which to enter marriage.  That conversation should take less than five minutes.  So either he doesn't care that it is important to you and can't be bothered to add up the number and share it, or you haven't made it clear that is is important.  I can't see another explanation. 

Then there is the fact that he asks for a number, and you are "hesitant" to provide it.  You guys are crazy if you don't sit down before you take another step toward marriage, and hash out a specific plan for finances going forward--who pays what for what, what triggers a change in that, what retirement looks like for each of you, and more.

It sounds very much like you are afraid to set boundaries with him or make clear and specific requests.  You didnd't just say, "you borrowing my car long term won't work, so I'll lend it to you for X time under Y circumstances, but when that's over you need to have your own transportation."  You haven't said, "tell me how much debt you have" (or if you have he has either disrespected you by ignoring that, or you've given him the impression this isn't a serious or immediate need).  You won't say, "I need you to contribute X toward the bills in order to feel comfortable"  (Or "I propose you provide X and I provide Y", but let's discuss and come up with a specific plan if that doesn't work for you".) 

Seriously. *Talk* to your partner.  And don't be afraid to be assertive.  The worst that could happen is that your relationship crumbles and while that's awful, kicking that awful can down the road makes it more awful, not less.  Express your needs in a calm, reasonable way, be willing to compromise but don't compromise so far that you aren't okay with the final agreement.   But for heavens sake, don't let this stiff continue to linger and fester.  Speak up, be honest and trust your partner to be reasonable and honest himself.

Oh I've asked him straight up about the debt.  Here's how the conversation goes (assume we're at home eating dinner):
Me: How much is that debt exactly?
Him: Maybe around $10,000.
Me: Ok but what is the exact number and interest rate?  If we know that mybe we can do a balance transfer to get rid of the interest rate.
Him:  I don't know off the top of my head
Me:  Well it should be easy enough to look up.
Him: Yeah, but not now.
Me: Ok, well maybe do it tomorrow on your day off while I'm at work.
Tomorrow tolls around, and nothing.  This literally has been going on for weeks.
I'm not sure what I can do except try to force him to look it up in my presence while I sit over his shoulder.  That feels infantalizing to me, like telling a child they need to brush thier teeth before bed and watching them do it to make sure.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Retire-Canada on August 08, 2018, 08:06:46 AM
I'm not sure what I can do except try to force him to look it up in my presence while I sit over his shoulder.  That feels infantalizing to me, like telling a child they need to brush thier teeth before bed and watching them do it to make sure.

I sympathise, but at some point you have to either accept this as the way it is and forget about optimising that debt or put your foot down and say you are not marrying someone who can't get their shit together.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 08, 2018, 08:36:16 AM
Or instead of asking him what his debt amount is you could openly communicate to him that you have a serious relationship need for openness about finances and that it’s a non-negotiable for you that you both be proactive and responsible about money moving forward.

He obviously has no clue what your needs and expectations are.

My DH is like that about numbers too, and I simply stated in clear terms that I needed him to be far more engaged about our finances and that we were going to talk about it openly, honestly, and FREQUENTLY, as a normal and healthy part of our relationship and that talking about money was going to be as normal as talking about our day at work.

DH still sucks at knowing actual balances because he’s hopeless with numbers, but I have access to all of his accounts, so I update him regularly on the state of all of our accounts and we talk about what those numbers mean on a daily basis just like talking about work. Talking about work usually is the same as talking about money because work generates money, so they really are the same issue.

You two aren’t actually talking and it’s a real problem.
Not once in that exchange that you posted did you say *anything* to him about *why* you are asking about his debt other than to offer a suggestion for a balance transfer, which he may or may not even care about. That’s not communicating.

Neither of you have any actual clue about how either of you feel about that debt.
That’s crazy!
Common...but still crazy!

ETA: you realize that you are more open and honest with strangers on the internet about your real feelings than you are with the man you want to marry. You do see how ass-backwards that is, right???
I post a lot of feelings and opinions here, but nothing compared to what I share with my DH.
[/quote]

I have stated that to him, in those exact terms.  To make things more concrete, I told him (the dame day I wrote the original post) that I wanted us to have a night once a month (at least) where we sit down and talk about money.  I suggested doing it on a day he doesn't work so that he is less stressed.  I tried to do it last night (after sending him yet another copy of our budget) but he said we should do it next week because he will know his actual takehome pay.  So he's well aware that this is important to me.  I'm honestly not sure what more I can do to emphasize how important this is to me.  I would talk about it everyday but he tells me I'm nagging.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: sokoloff on August 08, 2018, 08:48:43 AM
You've made a great first step, which is always the hardest.

I can sympathize with your current standoff, as my DW is often less patient with my natural timeline. Over time, what we've found to work well is for her to ask me what timeframe would be realistic and reasonable, let me propose a timeline, and then we write down what we just agreed to. Do I hit it everytime? No, but way more often than not.

"When do you think you can come up with an inventory of your debt balances and interest rates?"
"Next Friday"
"OK, I'll count on that. Let's plan to talk next Friday night and see what we can do to build a better future with regards to killing all of our debt."

He's going to stumble a few times. Make it clear that it's disappointing, but then let him make a new commitment. He'll eventually (and quite soon, probably) start making thoughtful commitments and hit them. (My problem was that I would make a best-case, knee-jerk, guess and then some problem would come up. For the simple case of just logging into a website to look up a balance, this is less of a factor, but when it's a "repair XYZ", there are often delays and multi-step processes, each with their own chances to fail/cause delays.)

Keep pushing, but be smart about the pushing. Be firm that this is important and you won't accept not making progress jointly. Be a little more flexible and supportive of whether individual steps of progress come in August vs September. Focus on "getting better" rather than "being excellent" at this. Continually getting better beats starting out excellent. (Math geek: In "y = mx + b", the m term dominates over b.)
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: MDfive21 on August 08, 2018, 08:59:31 AM
if he's not willing to get the #s himself, and he just says 'how much do i need to pay' maybe he just wants you to do it.  get his approval and pull his credit report.  it's getting ridiculous.  if he wants to play house with you he needs to do his part and if that's strictly in the emotional support arena that's fine, but one of you has to work the finance for the family and it can't be done without knowing the numbers.

honestly, if he agrees to a budget for himself, turns over the keys to his finances to you and allows you to do it, that's preferable to dragging him along kicking and screaming.  i've been there in both ways and i'd rather just do it and know it's done right.  don't try to fix him if he doesn't want to be fixed.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: historienne on August 08, 2018, 09:05:05 AM
Oh I've asked him straight up about the debt.  Here's how the conversation goes (assume we're at home eating dinner):
Me: How much is that debt exactly?
Him: Maybe around $10,000.
Me: Ok but what is the exact number and interest rate?  If we know that mybe we can do a balance transfer to get rid of the interest rate.
Him:  I don't know off the top of my head
Me:  Well it should be easy enough to look up.
Him: Yeah, but not now.
Me: Ok, well maybe do it tomorrow on your day off while I'm at work.
Tomorrow tolls around, and nothing.  This literally has been going on for weeks.
I'm not sure what I can do except try to force him to look it up in my presence while I sit over his shoulder.  That feels infantalizing to me, like telling a child they need to brush thier teeth before bed and watching them do it to make sure.

This is...really not great.  I'm not saying break up, but please don't get married until you can have conversations about this stuff that end productively.  Maybe that means investing in couples counseling for a few months.  Maybe it means doing the Dave Ramsey thing, as someone else suggested.  But once you get married you own each others' financial decisions, so you absolutely need to be able to talk them through. 

Also - I don't remember if you are thinking about kids at some point, or not.  But if so, you REALLY need to get this sorted first.  An extremely common pattern among my friends goes like this (and yes, it's almost always gendered this way, although obviously it could be reversed and can happen in queer couples too. Maybe I only see this version of it because I, a woman who has her shit together, tend to be friends with other woman who have their shit together):
Couple without kids: woman takes the lead on life logistics, including finances, maybe has a small degree of irritation about it, but it really doesn't matter because she loves her partner and gets a lot of emotional benefits from the relationship
Couple has kids: woman keeps doing most of the life logistics stuff, but there is now 3x as much stuff to do (daycare! doctor's visits! buying the right formula! making sure a growing kid has clothes that fit!).  Plus she's usually doing at least 50%, often more, of the hands-on childcare.
6-12 months in: woman's resentment boils over like a volcano and she absolutely loses it at her partner.  Sometimes this leads to renegotiation and a more equitable division of labor, sometimes not.  In all cases, it's extremely unpleasant and tough on the relationship.  Worst case scenario, couple splits up because woman can't handle being the only grown-up in the family.

So yes, I agree that you can't treat your partner like a child and sit over his shoulder while he does what you tell him to do.  You can, though, insist that he put in the work if he wants to be in a relationship with you.  Couples counseling might really help to get this message across in a way that doesn't explode the relationship. 
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 08, 2018, 09:16:49 AM
Definitely not planning on kids...ever.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: historienne on August 08, 2018, 09:24:05 AM
Definitely not planning on kids...ever.

That definitely lowers the stakes!  I still think you want to be able to talk this stuff through, but it's possible to make his finances stay his problem in a way that it wouldn't be with kids.

I do think you need to pick a side, though.  Either you are a financial team, or not.  If you are, then he needs to bring numbers to the table so you can make joint financial decisions that benefit the relationship as a whole.  If not, then you should take him up on his offer to pay his fair share of ongoing costs.  That probably includes paying for his own car, so that you can use yours on the weekends, or maybe paying you for the use of your car so that you can afford to take the occasional Uber/use Zipcar, etc.  Also, obviously, you'd need a prenup before getting married.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Retire-Canada on August 08, 2018, 09:26:07 AM
Also, obviously, you'd need a prenup before getting married.


Or don't bother getting married. Without kids in the plans there is not a really compelling reason to do so.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Villanelle on August 09, 2018, 02:50:15 PM
You are engaged but he has yet to tell you how much debt he has?

More and more you are giving the impression that the two of you have some serious communication issues, and some uge gaps to fill before you are anywhere close to being in a healthy place from which to enter marriage.  That conversation should take less than five minutes.  So either he doesn't care that it is important to you and can't be bothered to add up the number and share it, or you haven't made it clear that is is important.  I can't see another explanation. 

Then there is the fact that he asks for a number, and you are "hesitant" to provide it.  You guys are crazy if you don't sit down before you take another step toward marriage, and hash out a specific plan for finances going forward--who pays what for what, what triggers a change in that, what retirement looks like for each of you, and more.

It sounds very much like you are afraid to set boundaries with him or make clear and specific requests.  You didnd't just say, "you borrowing my car long term won't work, so I'll lend it to you for X time under Y circumstances, but when that's over you need to have your own transportation."  You haven't said, "tell me how much debt you have" (or if you have he has either disrespected you by ignoring that, or you've given him the impression this isn't a serious or immediate need).  You won't say, "I need you to contribute X toward the bills in order to feel comfortable"  (Or "I propose you provide X and I provide Y", but let's discuss and come up with a specific plan if that doesn't work for you".) 

Seriously. *Talk* to your partner.  And don't be afraid to be assertive.  The worst that could happen is that your relationship crumbles and while that's awful, kicking that awful can down the road makes it more awful, not less.  Express your needs in a calm, reasonable way, be willing to compromise but don't compromise so far that you aren't okay with the final agreement.   But for heavens sake, don't let this stiff continue to linger and fester.  Speak up, be honest and trust your partner to be reasonable and honest himself.

Oh I've asked him straight up about the debt.  Here's how the conversation goes (assume we're at home eating dinner):
Me: How much is that debt exactly?
Him: Maybe around $10,000.
Me: Ok but what is the exact number and interest rate?  If we know that mybe we can do a balance transfer to get rid of the interest rate.
Him:  I don't know off the top of my head
Me:  Well it should be easy enough to look up.
Him: Yeah, but not now.
Me: Ok, well maybe do it tomorrow on your day off while I'm at work.
Tomorrow tolls around, and nothing.  This literally has been going on for weeks.
I'm not sure what I can do except try to force him to look it up in my presence while I sit over his shoulder.  That feels infantalizing to me, like telling a child they need to brush thier teeth before bed and watching them do it to make sure.

"We;ve had this conversation multiple times, and yet you still haven't given me the number.  This is extremely important to me, so I need for it to be a priority for you.  Please have the number tomorrow night and we will discuss if after dinner.  I need for this to be the last time we have this conversation."

Then, he either has the number, or he doesn't.  If he doesn't, at that point, I'd likely be reconsidering being with this man.  That may seem extreme over just a failure to produce a number, but this is so much more than that.  It means he's a shitty partner who doesn't value what is important to you when you've made the exceptionally clear to him  Why would you ever consider tying your life legally to someone like that?  It truly seems like you are afraid to stand up to him and set firm boundaries.  I wonder why that is?  Are you afraid if you set a boundary that he doesn't like he will leave you?  I don't mean to be glib about matters of disappointment in love as I know they can be extremely painful and earth-shattering, but if that's who he is, this is never going to work out.  Refusing to stick up for yourself is not a sustainable relationship strategy.  Refusing to ask for what you need and stick to your guns will not somehow make him respect you more.  It will make him respect you less.  *MAYBE* this is just a case of him not really understanding this is important to you, because it does seem like you've shied away from taking it past just a light "it would be nice to know" conversation.  That seems unlikely, but possible.  So you need to take it past that light conversation and have the hard conversation.  Hard conversations are critical to healthy relationships.  Make it very, very clear that you need this and are frustrated and aren't going to wait any longer.  He will either see that and give you what you need, or he will--without words--tell you that he doesn't care if it is important to you and he either can't be bothered or is hiding something.  Either way, I don't see how anyone who is thinking even semi-clearly would continue a relationship like that. 

You need to stop being afraid to be assertive with him.  Things like wanting to know a partner's financial picture before engagement (or marriage), wanting your partner to contribute toward household expenses, wanting him to buy his own vehicle so you aren't stuck without yours--these are very reasonable.  And yet you seem to be acting as though you think they are hugely unreasonable demands so you are afraid to make them.  That's not how one treats a partner.  It's not fair to him, assuming all of this is really just cluelessness on his part.  And if it isn't cluelessness, then you are making a massive mistake combining your life with this mine.  So find out which of those two it is, and act accordingly. 
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: The_Dude on August 09, 2018, 04:11:38 PM
A potential solution to avoiding resentment about the SO's earnings is to not treat all income and expenses in a marriage as joint.  I get that culturally this is the "normal" thing to do.  However, in the modern times that we live in it doesn't need to be a given. 

My wife and I do not share finances and split shared expenses 50/50.  Its great, as we don't fight about spending and saving. 

When I discovered the concept of early retirement my wife also wasn't on board with it.  But with our separate finances she didn't mind if I worked towards this goal and I didn't mind if she made other choices that would result in more working years for her. 

We have been together nearly 20 years, have kids, and as long as we are both healthy and capable our finances will continue to be separate. 



Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Hargrove on August 09, 2018, 05:18:54 PM
Whoa. We went from caution right back to intense.

Neither the words "brazen" nor "clueless" accurately describe a scenario of serious anxiety. His difficulty with switching career gears, his opinions on socioeconomics, his relatively narrow comfort zone, and his significant challenge communicating about it all may not mean anything like "he doesn't care." If his ego is tied into something he thinks he has already failed (living up to his SO financially), it will be much harder for him to meet in the middle on this than may seem obvious (or desirable). That, however, may be what you "have to live with" if you stay with him, rather than someone who "doesn't value you."

Jesus.

If you are out of ideas on ways to approach the conversation and the relationship is worth it to you, involving a therapist would be a great idea. People who are otherwise reasonable and caring can have areas they are terrified to tackle. That sucks, and it's frustrating, and you may decide to opt out, ultimately, but it's also not impossible to work through.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Simple Dad on August 09, 2018, 06:48:23 PM
If he is getting $5000 raise, have him buy a cheap car or better yet a motorcycle.  Motorcycle would be much cheaper if he is comfortable riding.  I am not familiar with the Atlanta area but I would think he could pick up a small truck or car for under $3000 easily.  Seems like a simple enough solution.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 10, 2018, 12:54:51 PM
Whoa. We went from caution right back to intense.

Neither the words "brazen" nor "clueless" accurately describe a scenario of serious anxiety. His difficulty with switching career gears, his opinions on socioeconomics, his relatively narrow comfort zone, and his significant challenge communicating about it all may not mean anything like "he doesn't care." If his ego is tied into something he thinks he has already failed (living up to his SO financially), it will be much harder for him to meet in the middle on this than may seem obvious (or desirable). That, however, may be what you "have to live with" if you stay with him, rather than someone who "doesn't value you."

Jesus.

If you are out of ideas on ways to approach the conversation and the relationship is worth it to you, involving a therapist would be a great idea. People who are otherwise reasonable and caring can have areas they are terrified to tackle. That sucks, and it's frustrating, and you may decide to opt out, ultimately, but it's also not impossible to work through.

Yea I think it's this.  We had the discussion (only about his credit card debt) two night ago because (on the advice of someone in this thread) I told him he could either tell me or I could pull his credit report.  The conversation...didn't exactly go well.  He didn't understand why his credit card debt affected me and I explained that, if we're sharing expenses and he's using my car to commute, the fact that he has ($9000 at 14% interest) credit card debt and, therefore, less money to afford an alternative means of communication or split expenses evenly is an issue.  He was like "well just tell me how much you need" and I was like "I am not going to give you a number that puts you back in debt, that's not worthwhile for either of us."  I explained to him the reason I want us to get on board financially is, if I am sharing a life with him, I want to be able to get rid of my student debt and have jobs I like.  He asked me if I would be able to get such jobs and that I should just go get jobs I like.  I explained that, if I did that, we could not afford to live how we live and that the reason he has been able to work a job he likes is because he's had people sharing expenses (whether it's housing or transport). He was like "well, maybe you just aren't cut out for work" which offended me (I've worked since highschool and, while I haven;t always been paid for my work or worked full time while in school one could hardly accuse me of eschewing work).  But I explained that it's not that I don't want to work; it's that I don't want to do work that makes me miserable (aka what I do right now).   He said alot of other weird things like he likes being poor because it feels comfortable and like home and I just don't understand.  I explained that, technically, he is not poor and I'm not asking him to be different than what he's used to, I'm trying to give us both more freedom from big banks.  I showed him my bank account (on my phone) so he could see how I was being transparent with him and that, if his credit card debt was lower I could do an interest free loan for him to pay the credit card debt off.  Eventually we sort of came to an agreement that his credit card debt was something we needed to address together.
The next day, when we were both at work, he texted to thank me for forcing him to have this conversation and apologizing for unfairly directing frustration at me.  That he loves me and cannot imagine life without me and is sorry his job caused me difficulty and thanking me for being patient while we make our life in a new city more permanent.  I was floored.  Historically he's been unwilling to thank or acknowledge me for these sorts of things (or acknowledge how his conduct is unfair to me).  I responds that it's not the job; it's that I see a place where I have some expertise and interest (finance) so I want to apply that to making our shared lives better the same way he applies his expertise in other areas (like plumbing or bikes or cars).  That night he came home and asked me if it made sense to loan him $5000 to pay off the debt and he was able to tackle the rest through a balance transfer.  I would prefer he just use a balance transfer so what I'm thinking of doing is setting him up for one and then, if he can't get rid of the debt within the zero APR introductory period, loaning him the remaining amount to pay it off. 
So I do think some progress was made albeit with some hurtful words directed at me, which is why I tend to avoid these conversations.  I don't think he is a bad or abusive dude.  I think there's alot of shitty patterns about shared family decision-making and money that he's grown up with and has a hard time shaking.  Very few of his friends have female partners who are educated or have careers and, even those that do, elected to be SAHM or are not the main breadwinner.  I think he would like to be able to provide for us but, ultimately, is not willing to take an awful job to do it (which I do not begrudge him).  As unfulfilled as I am at my job, the pay and benefits are fine and the work environment is not particularly onerous or toxic and I don't do it to provide for him. 
I'm steeling myself for next week's budget discussion, when he gets his first new pay check after the raise.....
P.S. He has a Vepsa-type scooter back at his parents which needs to be fixed but works just fine.  I told him he could take the job if he gets it fixed and brings it here for us to share when we both need a set of (non-bike) wheels.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: sokoloff on August 10, 2018, 01:31:41 PM
So I do think some progress was made albeit with some hurtful words directed at me, which is why I tend to avoid these conversations.  I don't think he is a bad or abusive dude.  I think there's alot of shitty patterns about shared family decision-making and money that he's grown up with and has a hard time shaking.  Very few of his friends have female partners who are educated or have careers and, even those that do, elected to be SAHM or are not the main breadwinner.  I think he would like to be able to provide for us but, ultimately, is not willing to take an awful job to do it (which I do not begrudge him).  As unfulfilled as I am at my job, the pay and benefits are fine and the work environment is not particularly onerous or toxic and I don't do it to provide for him. 
I'm steeling myself for next week's budget discussion, when he gets his first new pay check after the raise.....
I think you are underestimating the amount of progress you made. The first step of a diet or exercise program or relationship topic is by far the hardest. Don't stew over the words said in frustration any more than you'd stop an exercise program if you were sore for the next two days after your first workout. It's part of the process and unless he went WAY over the line, forget it just as you'd forget the initial soreness from a workout.
P.S. He has a Vepsa-type scooter back at his parents which needs to be fixed but works just fine.  I told him he could take the job if he gets it fixed and brings it here for us to share when we both need a set of (non-bike) wheels.
It might just be the language, but that same idea would probably land a lot better if you phrased it as "Fixing that scooter and having it available here would eliminate the need for a second car and all the associated expenses. Do you think you could do that?" rather than "I'll allow you to take the job if you fix the scooter and bring it here". Anything that starts with "I'll allow you..." is going to land badly in my experience (as either the speaker or listener of those words)...
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: me1 on August 10, 2018, 01:47:01 PM
P.S. He has a Vepsa-type scooter back at his parents which needs to be fixed but works just fine.  I told him he could take the job if he gets it fixed and brings it here for us to share when we both need a set of (non-bike) wheels.
It might just be the language, but that same idea would probably land a lot better if you phrased it as "Fixing that scooter and having it available here would eliminate the need for a second car and all the associated expenses. Do you think you could do that?" rather than "I'll allow you to take the job if you fix the scooter and bring it here". Anything that starts with "I'll allow you..." is going to land badly in my experience (as either the speaker or listener of those words)...

Yes! This is what I was trying to articulate from the beginning. It's the attitude of "I will allow you to do xyz" that was off putting to me from the beginning of this thread. My SO and I have never had to "allow" one another to do anything. Sometimes we check with each other if whatever we are planning will infringe on the other person's time or our joint money. But I would seriously walk the first time someone told me they won't "allow" me to do something.

It's great that you were able to have the conversation with him and change his mind, even if he was defensive at first.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 10, 2018, 01:52:10 PM
Oh, the exact words (I remember because I texted them after someone on this thread suggested a motorcycle) were "I have come up with a solution: you pay to fix scooter and bring and register in in ga so i have it on wknd"  His response "Hmmm, fun idea!"  I've anted that scooter here anyway...
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: gerardc on August 10, 2018, 10:34:12 PM
Posting mostly to follow because despite the many negative posts here there has also been some insightful sharing.

I struggle with occasionally falling into resentment of my husband and his freedom to make choices of work because he enjoys it: line cook, assistant at a plant nursery, woodcarver.  His list of jobs reads like a bunch of fun hobbies, and indeed they are.  Meanwhile I'm stressed and working OT.

15 years ago while I was working split shifts as a waitress in college, maintaining a 3.8 GPA in a full course load of engineering classes, and feeling so stressed that I developed shingles he was...working for a beekeeper and getting paid in honey and marijuana.

It was probably over a decade before I realized that I had a lot of resentment which stemmed from this time period.  It took me that long to put it into words and it took another few years and the help of a marriage counselor before I explained this to him.  He was surprised because he had seen that time period from an entirely different perspective.  Because he's a wonderful empathic person my sharing of this old resentment led to some very helpful discussions.  Not a silver bullet, because this is still an issue that sometimes bothers me.  Nowadays  I've found it helpful to be very forthright with him when I'm falling into this old pattern of feelings.  It doesn't usually change his actions but does change my attitude just getting my feelings out into the open.

Good luck finding him a reasonable car!

Honestly in a situation like this it would only be fair to FIRE before him, if you want to. He can decide to work fun very low-paying jobs if he wants to, but he should then expect to work for most of his life. I wouldn't support a partner's FIRE in these conditions. There should be some kind of relationship between work-related hardship and ability to FIRE. Increasing/decreasing income is often a decision more than just a coincidence.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: gerardc on August 10, 2018, 10:56:01 PM
A potential solution to avoiding resentment about the SO's earnings is to not treat all income and expenses in a marriage as joint.  I get that culturally this is the "normal" thing to do.  However, in the modern times that we live in it doesn't need to be a given. 

My wife and I do not share finances and split shared expenses 50/50.  Its great, as we don't fight about spending and saving. 

When I discovered the concept of early retirement my wife also wasn't on board with it.  But with our separate finances she didn't mind if I worked towards this goal and I didn't mind if she made other choices that would result in more working years for her. 

We have been together nearly 20 years, have kids, and as long as we are both healthy and capable our finances will continue to be separate.

Nice setup, but since you are married, aren't your finances legally joined by default?
Also, if you have kids but don't get married, how can you maintain separate finances while raising the kids?
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: The_Dude on August 10, 2018, 11:14:05 PM
A potential solution to avoiding resentment about the SO's earnings is to not treat all income and expenses in a marriage as joint.  I get that culturally this is the "normal" thing to do.  However, in the modern times that we live in it doesn't need to be a given. 

My wife and I do not share finances and split shared expenses 50/50.  Its great, as we don't fight about spending and saving. 

When I discovered the concept of early retirement my wife also wasn't on board with it.  But with our separate finances she didn't mind if I worked towards this goal and I didn't mind if she made other choices that would result in more working years for her. 

We have been together nearly 20 years, have kids, and as long as we are both healthy and capable our finances will continue to be separate.

Nice setup, but since you are married, aren't your finances legally joined by default?
Also, if you have kids but don't get married, how can you maintain separate finances while raising the kids?

There is a practical answer and legal answer. Legally you can use a prenup to change what the “default” is. Practically, it’s easy to never open a joint checking account.  With a little practice/habits it’s not hard to come up with a system for shared expenses.  Though I guess it helps that we trust each other 100% so it’s not like I’m asking for receipts or anything.  We have kids. That’s one of the shared expenses.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: BigMoneyJim on August 11, 2018, 07:40:03 AM
I only read the first of four pages and skipped the rest as it seemed to be devolving into a discussion on relationships. (On the other hand, that's what the title indicates....) So apologies if this got covered since page 1.

It can be worth taking a step down to get ahead sometimes. So if he wasn't employed as a manager before, the opportunity to gain and show experience as a manager may be beneficial long term. And in some cases, being management gets lots of bonuses that non-management don't get. (On the other hand, some places slap the "manager" title on people as an excuse to get cheap labor because of salary vs hourly.) So it's possible the net reduction in base salary vs commute & labor value return could pay off in other ways.

Whether he should be using your car or otherwise relying on your assets really does get into the terms of the relationship, and I can't constructively contribute to that discussion.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: bugbaby on August 11, 2018, 02:04:11 PM
I'm sorry OP but from my past experience with an ex just like your fiance: the circular, mean way he carried out the conversation is a huge red flag. 

Even worse, next day out of the blue he apologizes, right before basically asking you to pay off his CC debt - just rubs wrong.

Please, slow down. First take a looong time to watch his behavior and attitude whether he's truly on board to a fully open financial partnership.

Have you examined all his credit and bank statements?  Can you be sure he'll cut his spending and quickly pay you back and clear his debts and arrange his transportation all by his own initiative?

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: DCJrMustachian on August 14, 2018, 12:58:09 AM
Thank you for sharing so much.  My first thought is that I agree with you that it sucks how some employment is not valued fairly, while CEOs and corporations are raking in $$.  As hard as it affects you, separate that from your partner or his ability to negotiate with his direct boss. 

It seems that the transportation issue you started with has been solved.

The short version confused people, so thank you for filling in the history.  What seemed fair and unfair in the past has to evolve to where you are now.  The CC debt with a high interest rate is the low-hanging fruit, and together a focus on that first would be wisest.  Since you are about to be married, I think the mentality of his/yours is going to have to start shifting.  It's not "his credit card debt" anymore but shared debt, and "his stuff" in storage is now as a couple "our stuff".  If "he pays for xx" and "you pay for yy" its magnifying the division of finances and the income disparity.    I think part of what makes these conversations uncomfortable is because he thinks of this as "his problem" his mentality of mine/yours will need to shift as well. Would you consider starting a joint account that you both put paychecks into?

You didn't mention this but another thing to think about would be ways to pare down ongoing storage costs that seem high.  Maybe a combination of selling large items and reconfiguring some space could get that lower.

Generally congrats!  A couple making combined $134,000 living together in ATL with one car will be pretty comfortable and quickly build assets and get ahead of debt.

While working towards this, You'll get the benefit of listening to records, riding scooters, and free bike maintenance.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: ebella on August 14, 2018, 12:21:32 PM
Thank you for sharing so much.  My first thought is that I agree with you that it sucks how some employment is not valued fairly, while CEOs and corporations are raking in $$.  As hard as it affects you, separate that from your partner or his ability to negotiate with his direct boss. 

It seems that the transportation issue you started with has been solved.

The short version confused people, so thank you for filling in the history.  What seemed fair and unfair in the past has to evolve to where you are now.  The CC debt with a high interest rate is the low-hanging fruit, and together a focus on that first would be wisest.  Since you are about to be married, I think the mentality of his/yours is going to have to start shifting.  It's not "his credit card debt" anymore but shared debt, and "his stuff" in storage is now as a couple "our stuff".  If "he pays for xx" and "you pay for yy" its magnifying the division of finances and the income disparity.    I think part of what makes these conversations uncomfortable is because he thinks of this as "his problem" his mentality of mine/yours will need to shift as well. Would you consider starting a joint account that you both put paychecks into?

You didn't mention this but another thing to think about would be ways to pare down ongoing storage costs that seem high.  Maybe a combination of selling large items and reconfiguring some space could get that lower.

Generally congrats!  A couple making combined $134,000 living together in ATL with one car will be pretty comfortable and quickly build assets and get ahead of debt.

While working towards this, You'll get the benefit of listening to records, riding scooters, and free bike maintenance.

Haha yes, he brings alot of fun things to the table like scooters and records and bikes.  And we are doing great financially compared to most.  I am trying to get him to part with the storage (that was one of the things that pushed me to buy a bigger place) but he is taking forever.  We did a joint account before but he refused to ever log on to look at it or set up direct deposits and would insist on just writing me checks and then, when I moved out and closed it, he accused me doing the math wrong.  When I bought the home, I set up a joint savings account to deposit the downpayment.  I'm hoping we can use for home shared expenses.  I also got us both Chase Freedom card with the idea of him using it for his daily expenses so I can see where his money is going.  As others have said, it's hard for me to imagine what he's been doing with his money the last few months when he hasn't paid rent or utilities since April and still hasn't put much of as dent in his credit card debt.  He only noticed last week he was still paying renter's insurance on his old place
What I've realized it comes down to is he is just pretty terrible at planning and money.  The storage is one example.  Another, more recent one is, yesterday he told me he bought $500 new wheels for his road bike with is credit card points.  While he needed new wheels and they do run around that for his road bike, I was town between being relieved he found a way to save money on them but annoyed he bought them at all and used all his Chase points that could have covered airfare to Europe at a much lower redemption value (despite me explaining to him the importance of using them for airfare to visit my family). 
It's hard to believe these behaviors are willful ignorance so much as perceiving himself as poor and perpetuating that narrative. He sees a certain nobility in being poor and rejects financial planning as a way to not, himself, feel insecure about society's perceptions about poor or blue collar people.  I'm trying to get him to understand that money and financial planning are just a tools and he's letting socialized ideas about them prevent him from using them efficiently. 
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: PoutineLover on August 14, 2018, 01:17:37 PM
I've been following along with interest, and as this goes on it just seems like it's getting worse the more you tell us. It sounds like he doesn't have his shit together, doesn't know how to get his shit together, and worst of all, doesn't even want to get his shit together. And honestly, he doesn't ever need to if he has you to pick up after him. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I am sure he has other positive qualities in the relationship, but in money management he's a disaster and it affects you too. I would seriously reconsider joining finances with him and/or establish some sort of plan or milestone to reach before you get married. Money fights are a main reason for divorce, and you'll probably owe him a bunch of alimony if you do split.
To me, the car issue is one thing, and that can be dealt with simply by either using the scooter or getting a beater. But the credit card debt is hugely expensive, and needs to be dealt with asap, and you shouldn't bail him out or he will have no reason to ever change his habits. It's also a huge red flag that he can't keep track of where any of the rest of his money is going, until he figures that out he'll definitely end up in debt again.
Obviously I only have part of the picture, but if I were you I'd think about what you need from him (be it a commitment to pay off the debt, to get his own transport, to contribute to household bills, to get rid of the storage, etc.) and get him to commit to doing it (maybe even in writing) within a reasonable timeline. He can only blame his upbringing for so much. He's an adult, he has a good role model and potential teacher in you, and he is responsible for his own financial future. You say you don't want to infantilize him, but if you let this go on like this you'll end up acting like a mom to an immature little boy for your whole marriage.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: charis on August 14, 2018, 02:46:56 PM
Wait, he sees a nobility in being poor but asks you for a "loan" to pay for credit card debt that he should have been able to make a dent in because he has had very few expenses, thanks to you?   At the risk of being jumped on by the DTMF police in this thread, I would be very concerned about entering into a marriage with someone who sees no problem with refusing to get his act together while going along for the ride with you.  This is a big red flag, and it is not about having a low paying job.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: CrustyBadger on August 14, 2018, 03:05:13 PM
I get that kind of attitude towards money.   I might not be very good at describing it, but here's a link to a discussion of different types of attitudes towards money.   ebella's boyfriend could be something of, as described here, a "Money Avoider" or even a "Money Monk".

https://www.moneyharmony.com/moneyharmony-quiz/show-all-types

Boyfriend didn't ask her to lend him money to pay off his credit card, until Ebella made it clear that she felt his debt was affecting her, as they are planning to have a future together.  I presume at some point she made the offer to lend the money? 

I think many if not most married couples start off married life with a difference in money personalities, and it can be a big source of friction in a marriage until things get sorted out (if they ever do).    But it isn't necessarily spelling doom to a relationship if you have different personalities. 

But ebella, I really think some kind of premarital financial counseling would be a good idea.  You are already very firmly set in your opinions as to the best way to manage finances.  You have a clear goal in mind and know exactly how you think you and a spouse should get there.  Your boyfriend hasn't even agreed yet to your goals.   He hasn't even agreed yet that it is a good idea to HAVE financial goals! 

It will be very frustrating to be having discussions about the best way to pay off credit card debt or how to store extra items or commuting costs, when you haven't yet come to an agreement on the underlying goals you have -- financial, social, emotional, career.   You need to have a talk about that, first.

And it can come from a place of caring, not of trying to force someone to see things your way.  He can say "I don't care if I'm poor" but really mean, "I don't want to be the kind of person who is always thinking about money, because in my experience that kind of person is miserably anxious and unhappy."   You can tell him, "I want both of us to be financial secure, so that we don't have to always be thinking about money and have a lot of anxiety."   You might find that BOTH of you are trying to avoid anxiety, but you have different ways of going about it.   If you can both agree that the goal is to live a life free of anxiety, now it becomes a matter of working together as a team -- you can help him avoid his money anxiety (by doing certain things, like maybe handling the day to day finances and planning).   And he can help you avoid money anxiety (by agreeing to work together to create a spending plan you are both comfortable with.) . These are just examples... everything depends upon what you guys can agree on as your underlying goals.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: skp on August 14, 2018, 05:37:23 PM
What a mess.
I can only  tell you how I dealt with a similar situation. 
My husband quit his job because he hated it at age 40.  Our mortgage was paid off, we could live on my salary, and any money he made extra with side gigs was gravy.  We were not FI- I worked for basic household expenses and most importantly health insurance.  I admit sometimes I was resentful. 
The only way I could survive this was that a- I basically liked my job and b- as long as his side gigs didn't cost me any more money and he didn't spend more money than I brought in I was OK with it. c- he was a good dad, cooked dinner, shopped, did laundry and helped clean. d) His working and making good money early in his career had put us in a good but not FI position. e) I wondered if I was resentful because I was a woman and that I shouldn't have to be the responsible one and that I wasn't being fair.
My advice-
You have a job you dislike and a huge student loan burden.   Both would be there with or without your SO.  If you hate your job get a new one.  He didn't make those student loans you did- you are responsible for them. 
Chill a little- you sound a lot like me.  Everything is not about money.  You could potentially end up rich and lonely.
Make him pay for living expenses.  He is not responsible for your school loans and you are not responsible for his credit card debt. You guys are not married.  Don't let him cost you money- you are supporting him when he is making $40,000 a year.  Is this your choice? I don't get the idea that he is demanding to be taken care or-  YOU chose that so that he will pay off his credit card debt. 
However=  when you expect him to pay his fair share of the expenses, he should be allowed to say what those expenses are.  My question is=   How much input did the SO have in the expenses of this relationship???  As someone up thread said  each person should contribute 50% on only what the lower earner can afford.  Since OP makes $40,000 a year, you should be living a $80,000 lifestyle, If you chose housing based on you ability to pay and not his, you need to eat the difference.  Did he have any say in the housing you chose?  It sounds like you picked it based on your aversion to cars, proximity to your work, and to allow him to have storage space for his things which he is not utilizing because he is paying $300 a month for a storage space for them (what percentage is that of the rent?)
Evaluate whether your relationship is good long term.  Think long and hard, get counseling if necessary, and be honest with yourself, as to whether you would be happy marrying someone so totally different from you ambition wise and financial philosophy wise, as  neither of you will change.  Do it sooner rather than later.  Don't waste both of your time on a relationship that won't work.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: skp on August 14, 2018, 08:27:17 PM
Added to above.  I must have missed your response to some of my expense questions regarding your finances.  I just saw your last post.  I was under the impression that he was a total freeloader and you were paying all the bills.  It looks like he is paying for his share of the groceries.  He is paying the HOA and you are paying the mortgage.  Which is fair to me because I assume the house is in your name,   One thing you said was that you didn't know what he was spending his money on.  I think you know at least where some of the money is coming from.
He is not costing you money- Other than he is "borrowing" your car and inconveniencing you.  But there are reasons you don't want him to have a car. Parking. Your aversion due to the environment.  He can afford a car. If he got rid of the storage units, he could pay for a parking spot for a car and could buy a car.  This "choice" is as much yours as his.
Title: Re: income imbalance in a relationship
Post by: Kyle Schuant on August 14, 2018, 10:51:56 PM
A big tough Mexican man married a good-looking Mexican lady and, after the wedding, laid down the following rules: “Honey, I’ll be home when I want, if I want, and at what time I want, and I don’t expect any hassle from you. I expect a great dinner to be on the table unless I tell you otherwise. I’ll go hunting, fishing, boozing, and card playing when I want with my old buddies and don’t you give me a hard time about it. Those are my rules. Any comments?”

His lovely new bride said, “No, that’s fine with me. Just understand that there’ll be sex here at eight o’clock every night—whether you’re here or not.”