As a converted FI/RE skeptic, I thought you might like to read my realtime thoughts as my fiance first started pitching the idea when he sent me Jacob's ERE site. Here is a verbatim excerpt from our Google Chat, edited only for privacy. This conversation took place in May, 2013. In August, 2013, we
started a journal, and you can read about our progress in both frugality and attitude there if you're interested. It took about two months of talking exhaustively about what early retirement was all about to get me excited about it. Also, I found MMM much more palatable after checking out Early Retirement Extreme, which felt (and still feels) super extreme to me. It's also important to note that even before this conversation we had been talking about trying to be better with money. We'd started baby stepping our way toward optimization in January, 2013 and had communicated about it constantly.
Anyway, you may find it comforting to know that people don't just wake up one day and adopt this. It takes TONS of communication and understanding on both sides. Try to hear what your SO is really saying when she pushes back on ways you think you should be saving. If you read my responses below, you'll see there's a ton that's tied up in my resistance to the idea. I've highlighted sections where I expressed fears and doubts to him.
Ioseftavi: have I showed you this?
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/me: i'm not sure
Ioseftavi: it is interesting. The guy is basically retired at like 35 i think.
me: now reading
yeah
living in a van down by the riverIoseftavi: He lives off about $7k/year
nah
it's interesting, I thought it'd be WAY more insane in terms of his standard of living
me: i'm just going over the "about"
Ioseftavi: about ERE or "about me"
me: um, about ERE
Ioseftavi: This is fascinating to me. I could read this stuff all day.
me: haha
sometimes you scare me sweetie
i am afraid you are going to take me away to live in the woods
or worse go without me.
Ioseftavi: Nah. I don't want to live in the woods, and I definitely don't want to be without a you.
But this is really well thought out. the idea of mutually reinforcing goals for example
10:14 AM
Every part of one's lifestyle can be analyzed this way, but the most substantial gains come from optimizing the top three most expensive parts of the budget (see Pareto principle). These are usually housing, food, and transportation. Rather than buying these items separately, they should be selected as a holistic shelter-food-transport system.
continued:
A typical, systems-based solution would be:
1) a small apartment or cash-bought house
2) within walking distance of a market that sells healthful bulk ingredients
3) and within walking distance of work and other amenities
10:15 AM The strategic location of the home minimizes the distance that must be traveled, eliminating the need for a personal automobile. That in turn eliminates the need for a garage, making a smaller home more feasible. Cooking from scratch entails less transport than prepared food or restaurants, further reducing transportation needs.
In addition to meeting all basic needs for shelter, food, and transport at low cost, this solution has ripple effects, facilitating additional life goals. It involves very little effort spent on commuting and housework, and the freed time and energy can then be directed toward other projects. Traveling by foot or bike also provides exercise, eliminating the need to devote additional time to exercise. Cooking from scratch facilitates a healthy diet and provides light exercise. Those lifestyle choices free up time, improve physical health, and save money, which improves quality of life and reduces time and money spent on health care. I quite like that.
10:16 AM me: true
being a lawyer is basically the opposite of thatioseftavi I dunno, I like the cut of this dude's jib.
me: i guess there's a very petty part of me
10:28 AM that feels like dudes like this are always the ones who were potheads and never tried in high school
and acted like i was stupid for working hard and getting good grades Ioseftavi: I thought that this dude was that type
10:29 AM but his bio says he's got a PhD and worked for a few big companies
just got sick of the school - career - retire - die idea
me: i guess
it's hard to divest yourself of that system
when you've played by its rules your whole lifeIoseftavi: Yeah, but it’s kind of like investing
"If you do the same things everyone else is doing, you can expect to get about the same results."
10:37 AM I dunno, I want to look into this.
me: ok
but please, don't get rid of your cell phone me: back when we were in the early stages of datingme: and you had a pay as we go phone, it would drive me absolutely nuts
because you'd run out of money on your plan and then I would not be able to reach you Ioseftavi: I'm not going to make any crazy changes without talking to you.
Ioseftavi: I won't be doing some cocoon transformation where you don't get to see what the hell I'm doign
Ioseftavi: I'm not even sure how seriously I want to take this
10:42 AM but the idea of having hobbies and habits that cross-reinforce each other and promote independence and frugality really appeals to me.
me: true
i see that
Ioseftavi: yeah
you still reading?
me: yeah
10:52 AM though i should stop
Ioseftavi: nooooo, I want you to read more!
I'm curious to hear what you think
me: i dunno
10:54 AM i just feel like i missed the boat on this
Ioseftavi: what do you mean?
me: well
i have 96k in loans
no credit card debt
so that's good
but
Ioseftavi: yes!
me: if i wanted to do this i didn't need a law degree to do it
10:58 AM I honestly don't know
except that these type of minimalist, survivalist type things always feel like a criticism of everything I've accomplished in life
and my whole values systemIoseftavi: I don't think that it has to be that way at all
I think you just frame it differently
there's so much shit that people, in my view, confuse with being 'wealthy' and 'successful'
11:00 AM wealth = money in the bank, especially money that you don't have to use, and money that is way higher than your yearly needs
11:01 AM success = being good at the things you set out to do. If that is a career then that's fine, but people aren't "successful" because they work a lot or work for a certain firm or whatever. You can be successful at raising a family or successful at raising a garden and involved in your community or whatever it is
me: you're definitely right about success being unhelpfully defined by most people
but I like being able to afford nice "consumer" things11:22 AM
i grew up surrounded by people who could when I couldn'tIoseftavi: Yeah, I get that.
for me it's just the opposite to a degree
I grew up in huge houses with a shit ton of toys etc
11:29 AM and I'm fairly certain that none of that stuff really helps in raising good kids, and some of it might have even hurt
11:30 AM my parents worked REALLY hard but basically committed full tilt to a lifestyle where my dad earned as much as possible, and my mom tried to spend it as best she could, but I still think that both of them (especially my dad) probably could have had a better time if they lived a skosh simpler and just had more time to spend with their kids in general
me: yeah
i know what you mean
and i don't want that life either
i really don't
me: i dunno
my feelings about money and wealth are very jumbled