I want a pre-nup but girlfriend does not

[G-String]

Ok not quite a pre-nup, but more of a co-habitation agreement since no plans to get married. Here's the story: my GF and I have been together over 10 years now. It's been an up and down relationship. She wants a child and I've been delaying and delaying. She's now set to leave me unless we have a child, which I'm strongly considering. Yes I know I should not have a child to keep my partner. I'd be having a child partly because I love my GF and partly because I think I might like it and it'd give some meaning to my life. I've been just drifting for a while now, focusing on retiring early and focusing on my finances.

In terms of assets, I have around $200k in liquid investments/savings, a little over $200k equity in my home, and  my DB pension is worth around $500k. My GF has similar assets including her paid off home worth $250k. We both have same salary, approximately $90k per year. She is educated and has a good career.

She does not want to sign an agreement where if we separate I keep what's mine and she keeps what hers. She wants everything split down the middle if we were to separate.

One issue we've had is disagreement on how much a child costs. I'd be a little more frugal than her where I think she'd spend more on the child than I would. I'd be very generous, but she'd likely spend more.

I guess my question is whether I'm being stupid in wanting an co-habitation agreement, considering both of our current assets. I'm a very risk averse person who wants to protect my assets. I don't want my FIRE goals to go down the drain in the event we separate. I don't want to be penalized if my investments perform better than hers. My hope is we never separate and live happily ever after, but I also know 50% of marriages end in divorce; I'm a realist.

So my question is whether I'm being overly cautious here?  I'm considering walking if she won't sign an agreement, but is that stupid considering our assets?

[LWYRUP]

I think having a kid to stay with someone in an up and down relationship is one of the worst ideas I've heard in my life, almost on par with the time a college friend decided to try heroin (he's now a CEO so I guess that turned out OK).

But to answer your specific question, since you have similar income and assets, not sure I see the point of a pre-nup.  But if you push it hard, you guys could end up arguing over the terms and break up, which would probably save you both a lot of heartache given that you don't actually seem all that enthused about being a husband and father.

Sorry if this is too blunt but I figured that might make it more convincing and to save you from a bad choice. 

(Disclaimer: This is obviously not even close to legal advice.)

[kei te pai]

Dont have a baby, you two are not on the same page. If its this hard now, it will be ten times harder with a child involved.

[Psychstache]

Dont have a baby, you two are not on the same page. If its this hard now, it will be ten times harder with a child involved.

+1000

[G-String]

Dont have a baby, you two are not on the same page. If its this hard now, it will be ten times harder with a child involved.

Well I think it's just that I'm very financial minded, perhaps to a fault. And while she's good with her money, she's just more into family, and really has a big heart. I'm not sure if it's we're apart, but just have different perspectives. And she sees me wanting an agreement as a sign I don't trust her or know who she is. Where from my perspective, in the event we separate, I want it to go as smooth and stress free as possible.

[LWYRUP]

Dont have a baby, you two are not on the same page. If its this hard now, it will be ten times harder with a child involved.

Well I think it's just that I'm very financial minded, perhaps to a fault. And while she's good with her money, she's just more into family, and really has a big heart. I'm not sure if it's we're apart, but just have different perspectives. And she sees me wanting an agreement as a sign I don't trust her or know who she is. Where from my perspective, in the event we separate, I want it to go as smooth and stress free as possible.

How is shared custody and child support for 21+ years going to be smooth and stress free?

[G-String]

Dont have a baby, you two are not on the same page. If its this hard now, it will be ten times harder with a child involved.

Well I think it's just that I'm very financial minded, perhaps to a fault. And while she's good with her money, she's just more into family, and really has a big heart. I'm not sure if it's we're apart, but just have different perspectives. And she sees me wanting an agreement as a sign I don't trust her or know who she is. Where from my perspective, in the event we separate, I want it to go as smooth and stress free as possible.

How is shared custody and child support for 21+ years going to be smooth and stress free?

We already agreed on 50/50 custody if we were to separate. And since we make the same income, neither of us would pay the other child support. She's already agreed to that.

[LWYRUP]

Dont have a baby, you two are not on the same page. If its this hard now, it will be ten times harder with a child involved.

Well I think it's just that I'm very financial minded, perhaps to a fault. And while she's good with her money, she's just more into family, and really has a big heart. I'm not sure if it's we're apart, but just have different perspectives. And she sees me wanting an agreement as a sign I don't trust her or know who she is. Where from my perspective, in the event we separate, I want it to go as smooth and stress free as possible.

How is shared custody and child support for 21+ years going to be smooth and stress free?

We already agreed on 50/50 custody if we were to separate. And since we make the same income, neither of us would pay the other child support. She's already agreed to that.

Not legal advice, but as a fellow FIRE compatriot, consider googling "enforceability of prenup on child custody and child support in [my state]."

It might be the most profitable Google search you ever run.

[G-String]

Dont have a baby, you two are not on the same page. If its this hard now, it will be ten times harder with a child involved.

Well I think it's just that I'm very financial minded, perhaps to a fault. And while she's good with her money, she's just more into family, and really has a big heart. I'm not sure if it's we're apart, but just have different perspectives. And she sees me wanting an agreement as a sign I don't trust her or know who she is. Where from my perspective, in the event we separate, I want it to go as smooth and stress free as possible.

How is shared custody and child support for 21+ years going to be smooth and stress free?

We already agreed on 50/50 custody if we were to separate. And since we make the same income, neither of us would pay the other child support. She's already agreed to that.

Not legal advice, but as a fellow FIRE compatriot, consider googling "enforceability of prenup on child custody and child support in [my state]."

It might be the most profitable Google search you ever run.

Fair but if her and I agree on 50/50 custody and we both make the exact same income, how could I need to pay child support?

[Apple_Tango]

It seems to me like she wants a baby and doesn’t care if it’s with you or someone else. If you guys broke up tomorrow, she would be married within a year to someone else. But to answer your question, no you don’t need a pre-nup...you’re not married. You will have to pay for the kid though....that’s going to be a 50/50 thing no matter what.

I would recommend no kid.

[LWYRUP]

Dont have a baby, you two are not on the same page. If its this hard now, it will be ten times harder with a child involved.

Well I think it's just that I'm very financial minded, perhaps to a fault. And while she's good with her money, she's just more into family, and really has a big heart. I'm not sure if it's we're apart, but just have different perspectives. And she sees me wanting an agreement as a sign I don't trust her or know who she is. Where from my perspective, in the event we separate, I want it to go as smooth and stress free as possible.

How is shared custody and child support for 21+ years going to be smooth and stress free?

We already agreed on 50/50 custody if we were to separate. And since we make the same income, neither of us would pay the other child support. She's already agreed to that.

Not legal advice, but as a fellow FIRE compatriot, consider googling "enforceability of prenup on child custody and child support in [my state]."

It might be the most profitable Google search you ever run.

Fair but if her and I agree on 50/50 custody and we both make the exact same income, how could I need to pay child support?

Many (most? all?) US states will not enforce prenup clauses regarding child custody.  It's best interest of the child standard.

Joint custody is more common than in the past but women win most custody disputes.  (Leave aside whether that's fair, it's reality). 

Child support will then be determined by formula.  And I am wildly speculating (really, no idea, do your own research) that formula  will have support payments even for identical incomes to offset the cost of primary custody. 

Plus you are assuming incomes will remain static over 20 years?

Bonus -- if 50/50, who claims kid on the taxes?  Who covers health insurance?  Are there offsetting payments for that?

Also, why do you want 50/50 custody if you are hesitant about the kid anyways?  Is it just to avoid child support? 

I wouldn't trade my kids for anything but don't be fooled parenting is hard work.

[marty998]

I don't know what to tell you here, but here are a few random questions:

What are the chances of her maintaining her income when you have a child? You think she'll immediately go back to working full time?

You've been together 10 years... I'm surprised things are not more commingled than they currently are. Do you live together? She owns a house - do you pay her rent?

It's hard to see how a house can be split down the middle, you can't exactly carry away half the bricks.

You can't possibly have agreed to 50/50 custody if you split. You don't even have the child yet. What if they're disabled? What if one of you gets a job in another state? What if you have two or three children? What if you end up hating each other and renege on the 50/50 deal?

There are so many issues here. I'm sure there are parents on this board who have been through this before who could throw another 50 odd scenarios at you.

I'm not telling you its a bad idea, but courts can and do throw them out if circumstances have materially changed from when you entered into one (e.g. a kid comes along).

You will need to convince her (and a judge down the track) that signing one is in her best interests. That's not easy to do if you are only looking out for yourself here.

[G-String]

It seems to me like she wants a baby and doesn’t care if it’s with you or someone else. If you guys broke up tomorrow, she would be married within a year to someone else. But to answer your question, no you don’t need a pre-nup...you’re not married. You will have to pay for the kid though....that’s going to be a 50/50 thing no matter what.

I would recommend no kid.

Yes obviously I'd have to pay for half of my child's costs if I want 50/50 custody. That's fine with me. My girlfriend just wants a family; she's not a bad person at all, as some are making it seem here. She's got a huge heart and is a beautiful person.

[G-String]

Dont have a baby, you two are not on the same page. If its this hard now, it will be ten times harder with a child involved.

Well I think it's just that I'm very financial minded, perhaps to a fault. And while she's good with her money, she's just more into family, and really has a big heart. I'm not sure if it's we're apart, but just have different perspectives. And she sees me wanting an agreement as a sign I don't trust her or know who she is. Where from my perspective, in the event we separate, I want it to go as smooth and stress free as possible.

How is shared custody and child support for 21+ years going to be smooth and stress free?

We already agreed on 50/50 custody if we were to separate. And since we make the same income, neither of us would pay the other child support. She's already agreed to that.

Not legal advice, but as a fellow FIRE compatriot, consider googling "enforceability of prenup on child custody and child support in [my state]."

It might be the most profitable Google search you ever run.

Fair but if her and I agree on 50/50 custody and we both make the exact same income, how could I need to pay child support?

Many (most? all?) US states will not enforce prenup clauses regarding child custody.  It's best interest of the child standard.

Joint custody is more common than in the past but women win most custody disputes.  (Leave aside whether that's fair, it's reality). 

Child support will then be determined by formula.  And I am wildly speculating (really, no idea, do your own research) that formula  will have support payments even for identical incomes to offset the cost of primary custody. 

Plus you are assuming incomes will remain static over 20 years?

Bonus -- if 50/50, who claims kid on the taxes?  Who covers health insurance?  Are there offsetting payments for that?

Also, why do you want 50/50 custody if you are hesitant about the kid anyways?  Is it just to avoid child support? 

I wouldn't trade my kids for anything but don't be fooled parenting is hard work.

I'm in Canada so slightly different situation, but all good considerations.

[LWYRUP]

It seems to me like she wants a baby and doesn’t care if it’s with you or someone else. If you guys broke up tomorrow, she would be married within a year to someone else. But to answer your question, no you don’t need a pre-nup...you’re not married. You will have to pay for the kid though....that’s going to be a 50/50 thing no matter what.

I would recommend no kid.

Yes obviously I'd have to pay for half of my child's costs if I want 50/50 custody. That's fine with me. My girlfriend just wants a family; she's not a bad person at all, as some are making it seem here. She's got a huge heart and is a beautiful person.

I'm more worried about you, honestly.  Are you really ready for all the responsibilities and sacrifice of fatherhood?

[sakura]

Sounds like you could be (not saying you are) such a selfcentered annoying inflexible husband hahaha

 I would suggest compromising with her on a monthly or fixed amount in a shared account to go only for the kid and housing. Say that X amount would make her happy enough to pamper kids, save for college.., it should be  higher than what you wished buy at least you can keep the rest of your finances separately. And if she goes on a reckless shopaholic fever it wont affect you.

If you cant even agree on that sacrifices now, just embrace being single asap because real life issues and kids will be way worse. I hope she has many years of fertility ahead of her, as you've been "delaying and delaying" with something so delicate.

And, just curious, whats the issue with marriage?

[G-String]

I don't know what to tell you here, but here are a few random questions:

What are the chances of her maintaining her income when you have a child? You think she'll immediately go back to working full time?

You've been together 10 years... I'm surprised things are not more commingled than they currently are. Do you live together? She owns a house - do you pay her rent?

It's hard to see how a house can be split down the middle, you can't exactly carry away half the bricks.

You can't possibly have agreed to 50/50 custody if you split. You don't even have the child yet. What if they're disabled? What if one of you gets a job in another state? What if you have two or three children? What if you end up hating each other and renege on the 50/50 deal?

There are so many issues here. I'm sure there are parents on this board who have been through this before who could throw another 50 odd scenarios at you.

I'm not telling you its a bad idea, but courts can and do throw them out if circumstances have materially changed from when you entered into one (e.g. a kid comes along).

You will need to convince her (and a judge down the track) that signing one is in her best interests. That's not easy to do if you are only looking out for yourself here.

All great points. Initially I was only looking out for myself, but after talking to my GF tonight, I'm seeing more her side in that she just wants things split evenly if we separate. Perhaps I was initially being to selfish and only looking out for my own interests.

She is a beautiful person with a huge heart. I'm lucky to be with her, even considering our struggles. My reason for wanting an agreement is that if we did separate, we'd likely not like eachother very much at that time, so having these issues addressed already would help with the separation.

[G-String]

Sounds like you could be (not saying you are) such a selfcentered annoying inflexible husband hahaha

 I would suggest compromising with her on a monthly or fixed amount in a shared account to go only for the kid and housing. Say that X amount would make her happy enough to pamper kids, save for college.., it should be  higher than what you wished buy at least you can keep the rest of your finances separately. And if she goes on a reckless shopaholic fever it wont affect you.

If you cant even agree on that sacrifices now, just embrace being single asap because real life issues and kids will be way worse. I hope she has many years of fertility ahead of her, as you've been "delaying and delaying" with something so delicate.

And, just curious, whats the issue with marriage?

Yes I can be self centred and selfish. I think a child could help me grow and be a better person. Her and I are also both stubborn people which doesn't help with these issues.

On marriage I've never seen the need; it's just a piece of paper. She's never pushed it much either.

On the fertility: yes she's nearing the end of her biological clock, which is prompting this urgency.

[G-String]

It seems to me like she wants a baby and doesn’t care if it’s with you or someone else. If you guys broke up tomorrow, she would be married within a year to someone else. But to answer your question, no you don’t need a pre-nup...you’re not married. You will have to pay for the kid though....that’s going to be a 50/50 thing no matter what.

I would recommend no kid.

Yes obviously I'd have to pay for half of my child's costs if I want 50/50 custody. That's fine with me. My girlfriend just wants a family; she's not a bad person at all, as some are making it seem here. She's got a huge heart and is a beautiful person.

I'm more worried about you, honestly.  Are you really ready for all the responsibilities and sacrifice of fatherhood?

I think I'd be a good father. I just hear about so many men getting screwed through divorce/separation that it scares me. And me being a risk averse person by nature, heightens my concerns. Perhaps warranted, perhaps not. It's just if I ever wanted to have a child and family, my current GF is the ideal partner. Shes got such a big heart and would be a wonderful mother. I just worry about the "what if...".  But that worry could cause me to miss out on some great things in life.

[LWYRUP]

It seems to me like she wants a baby and doesn’t care if it’s with you or someone else. If you guys broke up tomorrow, she would be married within a year to someone else. But to answer your question, no you don’t need a pre-nup...you’re not married. You will have to pay for the kid though....that’s going to be a 50/50 thing no matter what.

I would recommend no kid.

Yes obviously I'd have to pay for half of my child's costs if I want 50/50 custody. That's fine with me. My girlfriend just wants a family; she's not a bad person at all, as some are making it seem here. She's got a huge heart and is a beautiful person.

I'm more worried about you, honestly.  Are you really ready for all the responsibilities and sacrifice of fatherhood?

I think I'd be a good father. I just hear about so many men getting screwed through divorce/separation that it scares me. And me being a risk averse person by nature, heightens my concerns. Perhaps warranted, perhaps not. It's just if I ever wanted to have a child and family, my current GF is the ideal partner. Shes got such a big heart and would be a wonderful mother. I just worry about the "what if...".  But that worry could cause me to miss out on some great things in life.

It is a big risk.  Our marriage and divorce culture and legal system are in my view, seriously screwed up and entering into a marriage or having a child is a serious risk.  Especially for men (IMO).  I just don't know if a prenup will actually provide all the protection you need.

I married without a prenup and I met my wife in college but it took me seven years to propose, in part for these reasons.  But I went all in, without a prenup, church wedding in front of our whole families, etc.  I made a bet on my wife and her on me.  Kids were assumed by both.

I think pre-marriage counseling would be good for both of you.  But my advice now that you've explained more can really be boiled down to -- search your soul, and if you are out, be fair to her and let her down now so she doesn't wait any longer, and if you are in then go all-in and do everything you can to be the best husband and father you have it in you to be.  You don't really get halfway on this one.

[sakura]

Sounds like you could be (not saying you are) such a selfcentered annoying inflexible husband hahaha

 I would suggest compromising with her on a monthly or fixed amount in a shared account to go only for the kid and housing. Say that X amount would make her happy enough to pamper kids, save for college.., it should be  higher than what you wished buy at least you can keep the rest of your finances separately. And if she goes on a reckless shopaholic fever it wont affect you.

If you cant even agree on that sacrifices now, just embrace being single asap because real life issues and kids will be way worse. I hope she has many years of fertility ahead of her, as you've been "delaying and delaying" with something so delicate.

And, just curious, whats the issue with marriage?

Yes I can be self centred and selfish. I think a child could help me grow and be a better person. Her and I are also both stubborn people which doesn't help with these issues.

On marriage I've never seen the need; it's just a piece of paper. She's never pushed it much either.

On the fertility: yes she's nearing the end of her biological clock, which is prompting this urgency.

Exactly, it's just a piece of paper that sets terms for two people that will be sharing life, home and children. That piece of paper is called marriage, sounds like that is what you are looking for.

[sakura]

I think pre-marriage counseling would be good for both of you.  But my advice now that you've explained more can really be boiled down to -- search your soul, and if you are out, be fair to her and let her down now so she doesn't wait any longer, and if you are in then go all-in and do everything you can to be the best husband and father you have it in you to be.  You don't really get halfway on this one.

+1000

[G-String]

It seems to me like she wants a baby and doesn’t care if it’s with you or someone else. If you guys broke up tomorrow, she would be married within a year to someone else. But to answer your question, no you don’t need a pre-nup...you’re not married. You will have to pay for the kid though....that’s going to be a 50/50 thing no matter what.

I would recommend no kid.

Yes obviously I'd have to pay for half of my child's costs if I want 50/50 custody. That's fine with me. My girlfriend just wants a family; she's not a bad person at all, as some are making it seem here. She's got a huge heart and is a beautiful person.

I'm more worried about you, honestly.  Are you really ready for all the responsibilities and sacrifice of fatherhood?

I think I'd be a good father. I just hear about so many men getting screwed through divorce/separation that it scares me. And me being a risk averse person by nature, heightens my concerns. Perhaps warranted, perhaps not. It's just if I ever wanted to have a child and family, my current GF is the ideal partner. Shes got such a big heart and would be a wonderful mother. I just worry about the "what if...".  But that worry could cause me to miss out on some great things in life.

It is a big risk.  Our marriage and divorce culture and legal system are in my view, seriously screwed up and entering into a marriage or having a child is a serious risk.  Especially for men (IMO).  I just don't know if a prenup will actually provide all the protection you need.

I married without a prenup and I met my wife in college but it took me seven years to propose, in part for these reasons.  But I went all in, without a prenup, church wedding in front of our whole families, etc.  I made a bet on my wife and her on me.  Kids were assumed by both.

I think pre-marriage counseling would be good for both of you.  But my advice now that you've explained more can really be boiled down to -- search your soul, and if you are out, be fair to her and let her down now so she doesn't wait any longer, and if you are in then go all-in and do everything you can to be the best husband and father you have it in you to be.  You don't really get halfway on this one.

I'm not trying to go half way. I'm just trying to be a realist; that half of marriages end in divorce. It's just reality. In addition, I think pursuing FIRE can be compatible with also being a good father. Like I can also be a good father and want financial freedom. I don't think I need to spend all my extra income on my child. My GF partially understand that, but not fully.  I think she still sees my pursuit of FIRE as selfish and only caring about money. Perhaps I've not done the best job in explaining it to her over the years.

But I've got a big decision to make. She'll be leaving me very soon if I don't agree to try to have a child  with her right away.

[LWYRUP]

I'm not implying that wanting a prenup means halfway, I'm just doing some internet psychoanalysis from your posts. 

As for FIRE, our savings rate dropped from around 70% down to about 20% after three kids and is now about 35% and rising but will probably never be north of 50% again.  I'm still targeting FI and maybe RE, but it's been pushed out a decade and we've done some serious belt tightening in certain areas (travel, eating out) to offset other costs (lost income, mortgage).  But that's three kids and some personal choices regarding things like housing and geography that aren't necessary -- just our own thing.

It's totally reasonable to expect to continue to save aggressively and to want her to respect that.  But I think you'll need to rule out vagabonding and Lean FI and make some compromises along the way.

[ysette9]

Just a quick quibble here. Yes, approximately half of all marriages in the US end in divorce but the statistics are very different when you start breaking them down by demographics. College educated people who marry later (late 20s/30s) are fat less likely to divorce than people without the education or who marry young. By being on this forum you probably already fall into the category for which divorce is relatively rare. Anecdotally I know very few people in our friend cohort who have been through divorce.

[G-String]

Just a quick quibble here. Yes, approximately half of all marriages in the US end in divorce but the statistics are very different when you start breaking them down by demographics. College educated people who marry later (late 20s/30s) are fat less likely to divorce than people without the education or who marry young. By being on this forum you probably already fall into the category for which divorce is relatively rare. Anecdotally I know very few people in our friend cohort who have been through divorce.

Interesting. And when I say "divorce" in my case I mean separate. But it'd be like a divorce because we've been in a committed relationship for over 10 years.

[ysette9]

Just from my personal perspective.

Having a kid is the hardest, most wonderful, most awful, most frustrating, vulnerable thing I have ever done. They make life’s joys higher and the sucky parts lower. It can really be hard on a relationship. as much as I love my kids and am grateful we have them, I don’t recommend them unless you really want them and you have a great relationship with a great person who really has your back and who you trust implicitly.

You can undue a lot of mistakes in life (sell the house, go back to school, get a divorce, quit smoking) but there is no going back once you have a kid.

So I’d advise going in 100% or not doing it at all. That means also going 100% in with the relationship with the potential future mother of your offspring. You trust each other to look out for the other and make the best decisions for the good of the joint family or you call it a day. Once you are committed and start a family there is no more you singular. Your needs are important but they are no longer the most important.

[former player]

You obviously think highly of your partner and if you have been together for 10 years she obviously thinks highly of you too.  Unfortunately that does not mean that you are necessarily the best fit for each other, which may explain the up and down relationship, or that each of you will lead your best lives by staying together.  Having and supporting and raising a child is hard work and stressful and needs a team effort: you and your partner are a couple but are you a team?

On the financial side, while things are currently pretty even between the two of you that will probably end as soon as a child (or children - you only mention one but more seem likely in due course) comes into the picture.  Just take a look at the statistics for what happens to women's incomes after having children.  So your future finances will need to take account of the extra costs of having a child, the potential extra costs of your partner's reduced income, and the potential extra costs of maintaining two child-friendly households if you split up.  While your financial obligations if you have a child and do or don't marry, and the effect of any pre-nup, are dependent on the legal structures where you live, the realities of having a third person to financially support for 18 years and the significant likelihood of your having to bear the major part of that obligation apply wherever you live.

Finally, one metric I use when making difficult decisions is: what will I regret the least?

[2Cent]

You can think now that it will all be clean when you separate, but the reality is that once you have kids there is no option for a clean separation for the next 18-21 years. Besides the legal obligations there is an emotional bond that will be there for life. Having a baby changes you. It changes your perspective. Especially if you're now drifting, this is really something good to latch on to. Human beings are made to be a part of something greater than themselves. Same for your GF. So any agreement you make now will be based on completely different mindsets. I would say just commit 100% or not at all because that is the reality. Having these agreements will just create a false sense of security that you can back out without big problems.

[Imma]

Everyone has already commented on the choice whether to have a child. My thoughts on the cohabitation agreement: do get one. I believe no one should cohabit without one. And don't just think about the bank accounts and property: also make sure you agree about what should happen regarding pensions, medical power of attorney and wills.

I always think it's a bit funny that mustachians, who tend to be fairly progressive otherwise, are still so traditional when it comes to marriage (the consensus is that people should get married and not get a pre-nup). Maybe it's because I'm from Europe but marriage really isn't the norm for long-term relationships anymore.

What I like about having a cohabitation agreement is that unlike marriage, it's not the government who sets the exact terms, we do. We talked extensively about the terms of our relationship before we bought our house and signed the agreement - after a 1 year trial cohabitation in a rental. We are 100% on the same page about everything we put in writing, unlike a lot of married couples who have no idea what exactly they signed up for.

[Metalcat]

I'm sorry, but if you can agree on finances, you shouldn't have a child together. Period.

Also, let's clarify something else, you ABSOLUTELY should examine the laws that apply to your cohabitation situation, see if they feel fair to both of you, and then customize them according to your shared values if needed.

You two aren't having a disagreement about whether or not you should have a cohabitation agreement, you are disagreeing about what should in that agreement.

You want one thing and she wants another. Does she actually *know* that the current laws would give her what she wants, or is she just guessing based on loose information and assumptions?

I would strongly recommend some counselling as well as a session with a family lawyer to figure out exactly how the laws would apply to your situation.

Then, 100% find a way to get on the same page or DO NOT have a baby. If you can't find alignment on this, then you are both in for a world of pain in co-parenting.

[norajean]

If you guys love each other just get married, have kids and start your family and be done with it. Billions of people do this, it isn’t hard. You can’t pre optimize your finances for this. Just jump in and figure it out. Everyone has ups and downs. Figure it out. Stay together and never divorce.

[Catica]

But I've got a big decision to make. She'll be leaving me very soon if I don't agree to try to have a child  with her right away.

My girlfriend just wants a family; she's not a bad person at all, as some are making it seem here. She's got a huge heart and is a beautiful person.

So it's her way or highway?  She sounds selfish and manipulative. Not seeing her huge heart and beautiful person you are describing.
Also, are you implying that one can't have a family without a child?

I think a child could help me grow and be a better person.

Can you explain how the child will help you grow and be a better person?

[MrThatsDifferent]

These aren’t easy decisions. I don’t think having children should be taken lightly although it’s easy for people to do. Having a kid won’t change you that dramatically though. It will ch age your life of course, but I’m sure you’re aware of many people who make bad decisions and are still remarkably selfish as parents. What happens all too often in these situations is the guy relents, they have the kid and the separation still happens because the kid was used as an anchor. So yeah, the risk is quite high for couples who are on the same page with kids, let alone those that are coming from different directions. But what’s the alternative, you drop a good person you love? I feel for you. Have you considered counseling to talk through your various issues and see if you can actively grow through conscious reflection and decision making, as opposed to hoping that having a child forces that change?

[G-String]

Thanks guys for the feedback. Sometimes I worry to that I'm too concerned with finances and FIRE and that I'll miss out on more important things and I'll regret it later on in life. I mean I could miss out on having a family and losing my lady because I'm too concerned with my finances.

My GF does not seem at all like the type of person who would take me to court if we were to separate. I think she just wants her fair share of assets we've built together. She's already said if we were to separate she doesn't want child support, doesn't want spousal support and we both get shared 50/50 custody. What she doesn't want is me living in a palace and her living in lesser home if we were to separate. Is it reasonable for me to give her half of increased equity In my home while we have child?  It probably is a reasonable request that I've been resisting to date. What I've proposed to date is if we separate, I stay in my home and she goes back to hers. What she wants is let's say my house equity increases in value by $50k while we're together, that I'd give her $25k upon separation.

[RetiredAt63]

Your GF has rose coloured glasses on.  No child support if you separate?  Even mustachian children have costs.  Have her read some of the journals on here of women who divorced and how children negatively affected their finances.  Or ask that in Ask a Mustachian.  Financially my Ex did better out of our divorce than I did, the courts and laws are pretty even handed (Ontario) and my income and pension were slightly better than his.

Children (even one) are a huge time and energy drain.  If one partner doesn't really want them, the whole relationship goes downhill.  Even if both want them, the reality is that a lot of people find they don't like the way the relationship has changed, with the new little person needing all that time and energy.  Anecdotally I have seen this more with husbands resenting the energy the wife is now giving to the baby instead of him, but it does happen the other way around too. 

[G-String]

Your GF has rose coloured glasses on.  No child support if you separate?  Even mustachian children have costs.  Have her read some of the journals on here of women who divorced and how children negatively affected their finances.  Or ask that in Ask a Mustachian.  Financially my Ex did better out of our divorce than I did, the courts and laws are pretty even handed (Ontario) and my income and pension were slightly better than his.

Children (even one) are a huge time and energy drain.  If one partner doesn't really want them, the whole relationship goes downhill.  Even if both want them, the reality is that a lot of people find they don't like the way the relationship has changed, with the new little person needing all that time and energy.  Anecdotally I have seen this more with husbands resenting the energy the wife is now giving to the baby instead of him, but it does happen the other way around too.

She has a job that pays $90k per year. The exact same as me. How did you miss that? Yes she'll take 2 years off for mat leave before returning to work, but that's fully topped up by the employer. Her job will be there waiting for her when she returns after the mat leave. It's a very secure government job in Canada.

[Playing with Fire UK]

Here's what I'd tell your girlfriend if she was asking:

1 - Don't have a child with someone who isn't 100% in. Just don't.

2 - Don't sign the agreement. Sure, you earn equal amounts now and don't need it: but what comes next?

Raising a child takes a huge amount of effort. It's going to inflict an amount of career damage on one or both of you. If you are raising a child with someone who isn't 100% in, you will end up doing the majority of the work and suffering the majority of the career damage. The increased work and resentment will tear the relationship apart and then you'll end up trying to fund a home and raise kids, while under-earning and seeing your ex who hasn't had the same career damage.

I've seen excellent fathers and co-parents who pull their weight and share the hours, effort and career damage. But they all start off being 100% in and it increases from there.

I wish you all the best in figuring this out. A baby isn't a solution.

[limeandpepper]

It's been an up and down relationship.

You don't have to elaborate on this, but consider the magnitude and frequency of how up and down the relationship is, and what the issues are behind those ups and downs.

Having a kid can be testing on even a smooth-sailing relationship, and in the case of an up-and-down relationship, it will very likely magnify the problems you have. If it's up and down now it's probably not going to get any easier.

[Metalcat]

Thanks guys for the feedback. Sometimes I worry to that I'm too concerned with finances and FIRE and that I'll miss out on more important things and I'll regret it later on in life. I mean I could miss out on having a family and losing my lady because I'm too concerned with my finances.

My GF does not seem at all like the type of person who would take me to court if we were to separate. I think she just wants her fair share of assets we've built together. She's already said if we were to separate she doesn't want child support, doesn't want spousal support and we both get shared 50/50 custody. What she doesn't want is me living in a palace and her living in lesser home if we were to separate. Is it reasonable for me to give her half of increased equity In my home while we have child?  It probably is a reasonable request that I've been resisting to date. What I've proposed to date is if we separate, I stay in my home and she goes back to hers. What she wants is let's say my house equity increases in value by $50k while we're together, that I'd give her $25k upon separation.

Don't ask us what's reasonable, that's an entirely personal question.

However, if you were married, she would automatically be entitled to 50% of whatever equity was in the house after the point you two got married. So had you two not been ambivalent about marriage, she would have already been covered by the law.

I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, my point is that a set of laws already apply to your situation, and whether or not she would "take you to court" is almost irrelevant, because if you break up, she'll probably become pretty familiar with what she's entitled to, as virtually every mother I have ever seen split has done.

If you feel you need to become less stringent about your finances in order to not miss out on a future that you want, then cool, become less stringent. However, do it in the context of mature, adult cooperation and collaboration. We can't tell you what's reasonable, only the two of you can work that out for yourselves.

[BlueHouse]

Yes obviously I'd have to pay for half of my child's costs if I want 50/50 custody. That's fine with me. My girlfriend just wants a family; she's not a bad person at all, as some are making it seem here. She's got a huge heart and is a beautiful person.

whoa.  You have to pay your share regardless of whether you have custody or not because that would be your responsibility.  You don't pay a share based on how much custody you get. 

I find this entire thread to be awful.  I don't think you're prepared for a child, but I do think that it would be good for you to have something in your life that you are responsible for that will let you focus on it and not yourself.  Maybe start with a dog?   Frankly, they're a lot of work.  You have to be home, you have to walk them a couple of times a day, (not just let them out to do their business....you have to actually walk with them), and you have to think about their needs ahead of yours.  You can't leave them in the car and run inside for a meal.  If you can't deal with a dog, then definitely do not have a kid. 

[G-String]

Yes obviously I'd have to pay for half of my child's costs if I want 50/50 custody. That's fine with me. My girlfriend just wants a family; she's not a bad person at all, as some are making it seem here. She's got a huge heart and is a beautiful person.

whoa.  You have to pay your share regardless of whether you have custody or not because that would be your responsibility.  You don't pay a share based on how much custody you get. 

I find this entire thread to be awful.  I don't think you're prepared for a child, but I do think that it would be good for you to have something in your life that you are responsible for that will let you focus on it and not yourself.  Maybe start with a dog?   Frankly, they're a lot of work.  You have to be home, you have to walk them a couple of times a day, (not just let them out to do their business....you have to actually walk with them), and you have to think about their needs ahead of yours.  You can't leave them in the car and run inside for a meal.  If you can't deal with a dog, then definitely do not have a kid.

Yes I fully understand how child support works, all I'm saying is that if I want 50/50 it means I also want to pay half the costs of the child.  If I have a child, I will be all in.  I'm not some deadbeat asshole like you are making me out to be here.  I WANT 50/50 in the event of a separation.  If I have a child I'll be 100% dedicated.  Like I said earlier, if we separate, I just want the parameters laid out in advance, as much as possible.  I've been through messy breakups in the past and I want to avoid that as much as possible. 

[Steeze]

FWIW - might not happen right away. DW and I are about 8 months in to trying with no luck so far. We are 32 & 31. I waited for an extra 2-3 years to start trying - Looking back, maybe that wasn’t the best choice. I’m still not 100% sure kids are even a good idea, but it’s now or never. Yolo and all that.

[former player]

My GF does not seem at all like the type of person who would take me to court if we were to separate.

She would probably do anything for her child, though.  Including taking it's father to court if she thought that was best.

I think she just wants her fair share of assets we've built together.

Have you built any assets together yet?  I thought so far you had separate finances?

She's already said if we were to separate she doesn't want child support, doesn't want spousal support and we both get shared 50/50 custody.

Child support may not be up to her, there may be State rules about parents having to support minor children that do not live with them full time.  You had better research this for your area, keeping in mind that this is subject to future legislative change which is unlikely to be in favour of a "deadbeat" dad (yes, I know, not how you see yourself). 

What she doesn't want is me living in a palace and her living in lesser home if we were to separate.

You might also do some research on what happens to women's careers and earning power after they have children - they are more at risk of losing their jobs, more likely to work part time or stay at home, less likely to get promoted at the same rate.   Having children is likely to make your partner poorer than you for these reasons, and it sounds as though she is aware of this.

Also bear in mind that living separately while sharing the upbringing of a child is expensive, more expensive than doing it living in the same house and much more so than not having a child in the first place.  You will both be poorer than you would otherwise be (or at least have less disposable income) if you separate after a child is born.  And I don't see how any agreement could guarantee that you will both be equally wealthy, or have equally valuable homes, over the twenty or more years of separate living while childrearing and the possible decades of separate living after that.  It's practically a guarantee that one of you will end up living in a "lesser" home, even if both careers stay on track.

Is it reasonable for me to give her half of increased equity In my home while we have child?  It probably is a reasonable request that I've been resisting to date. What I've proposed to date is if we separate, I stay in my home and she goes back to hers. What she wants is let's say my house equity increases in value by $50k while we're together, that I'd give her $25k upon separation.

Why would you do this?  Won't her home be increasing in equity at the same rate as yours?

[YttriumNitrate]

I'm not trying to go half way. I'm just trying to be a realist; that half of marriages end in divorce.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

While half of marriages may end in divorce, the numbers get skewed by young people with high divorce rates and serial-divorcees.

A more useful stat is that 80% of first marriages among college educated people last more than 20 years.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/04/education-and-marriage/

You can get an even better estimate of your real odds by including other factors as well.
https://dadsdivorce.com/articles/8-factors-affect-odds-divorcing/

[ixtap]

Your GF has rose coloured glasses on.  No child support if you separate?  Even mustachian children have costs.  Have her read some of the journals on here of women who divorced and how children negatively affected their finances.  Or ask that in Ask a Mustachian.  Financially my Ex did better out of our divorce than I did, the courts and laws are pretty even handed (Ontario) and my income and pension were slightly better than his.

Children (even one) are a huge time and energy drain.  If one partner doesn't really want them, the whole relationship goes downhill.  Even if both want them, the reality is that a lot of people find they don't like the way the relationship has changed, with the new little person needing all that time and energy.  Anecdotally I have seen this more with husbands resenting the energy the wife is now giving to the baby instead of him, but it does happen the other way around too.

She has a job that pays $90k per year. The exact same as me. How did you miss that? Yes she'll take 2 years off for mat leave before returning to work, but that's fully topped up by the employer. Her job will be there waiting for her when she returns after the mat leave. It's a very secure government job in Canada.

Two years without bonuses and raises? If so, you may well already be earning more by the end of maternity leave.

I do think you should have an written agreement. You clearly still have a lot to talk about and this is a great format for it.

[LightStache]

The fact that you can't come to terms on a cohabitation agreement points to incompatible financial values. If you can't come to terms now, a baby in the picture is almost certain to make things worse.

You may love your GF, but that doesn't mean you're compatible life partners and parents. Given the biological imperatives, the most selfless thing to do may be to let her go find a compatible father before it's too late.

[ysette9]

But I've got a big decision to make. She'll be leaving me very soon if I don't agree to try to have a child  with her right away.

My girlfriend just wants a family; she's not a bad person at all, as some are making it seem here. She's got a huge heart and is a beautiful person.

So it's her way or highway?  She sounds selfish and manipulative.


I need to politely point out that this is nonsense. OP’s girlfriend wants something that is important to her. She is merely communicating her values and choices and letting OP choose whether to be a part of that or not. Making your needs knows clearly in a relationship and then making decisions to prioritize your needs is not selfish, it is what healthy adults do.

[Sibley]

You guys need couples counseling. Either to help you get on the same page (are you even in the same book?), or to help you figure out you need to break up.

Whatever you do: do NOT have a baby to "save your relationship", "help you become a better person", "help you grow up", etc. That's not the responsibility of a child. Those are YOUR problems. Deal with your shit first, before you bring a baby into the mix.

And if your GF has baby fever badly enough, you really have 2 options: fall into line, or breakup. Figure it out, before she get pregnant.

[MKinVA]

Garrett, I add my voice to everyone else saying don't do it, and probably this relationship has come to an end. You don't want the same things, you don't want to live the same way. The only circumstances in which you would go along with the way she wants to live is if EVERYTHING works out the way you want it to. It doesn't have anything to do with finances or FIRE. You do not want to take chances. You just can't get that in life, but you can get close by not having children, not allowing someone else a say in your financial life, by working toward FIRE so you will be secure not matter what. You say she is a great person, but ultimately, you do not trust her or you wouldn't be on the internet looking for answers.

You have to have an honest, MATURE conversation with yourself and with her. Start with, what if everything that could go wrong, goes wrong? What if it's twins? What if the child is disabled? What if she wants to split, but you don't? What if she runs off with the postman? What if you want to split and she doesn't? What if she wants more children and you don't? I will give you a big clue: if a woman wants a baby, she is gonna get pregnant (other than infertility). It is not up to the man. Women have been getting pregnant to get what they want since the world began. And I say that as a woman. How about this one: what if she wants to split and doesn't want the child full time or part time? It happens. I am the stepmother of two children whose mother split.