The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: SuperSecretName on December 20, 2016, 06:12:37 PM
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35
D.C. Suburbs in tech. Company typically has lower than market salaries.
I've been there 12 years. Great reviews every year. Raise was 3.5% last year and again this year. Before them it was higher %, and I was OK. Still climbing the ladder
I've taken increasing responsibility and play a critical role on a project. Essentially a functional promotion with no salary promotion
I voiced my displeasure with my boss and with his boss. Said I wanted another 10k (make 115 after bonus)
Boss#2 (VP) went to boss#3 (Senior VP). #3 said they will do a review of comparable positions/experience/salaries in the company and if there is "inequity" they would adjust. Would probably have to get CEO approval. This is a 2000 employee 500million revenue company. CEO approval seems crazy, but hey, that's what it is.
Anyway, if it comes back denied, I think I'm going to quit. No other job lined up yet, but significant savings, e.g. Fuck you money
Monthly expenses of 4K. I can get a mediocre job and just never work that hard again. I'm pretty good at getting by and making money from credit cards, buy/sell etc...
Seems crazy over 10k, but on the other hand, they'd be crazy to let me go over 10k
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Is $10K before taxes $6K after taxes or $500/month? Doesn't seem worth quitting over. Every month you stay there is a trip to Hawaii.
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I would stay for if we're only arguing over $6k after tax.
At some point your investment income is going to more than compensate... whether you earn 115 or 125 is neither here nor there.
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35
D.C. Suburbs in tech. Company has typically lower than market salaries.
I've been there 12 years. Great reviews every year. Raise was 3.5% last year and again this year. Before them it was higher %, and I was OK. Still climbing the ladder
I've taken increasing responsibility and play a critical role on a project. Essentially a functional promotion with no salary promotion
I voiced my displeasure with my boss and his boss. Said I wanted another 10k (make 115 after bonus)
Boss#2 went to boss#3. #3 said they will do a corporate review of comparable positions and salaries and if there is "inequity" they would adjust. Would probably have to get CEO approval. This is a 2000 employee 500million revenue company. CEO approval seems crazy, but hey, that's what it is.
Anyway, if it comes back denied, I think I'm going to quit. No other job lined up yet, but significant savings, e.g. Fuck you money
Monthly expenses of 4K. I can get a mediocre job and just never work that hard again. I'm pretty good at getting by and making money from credit cards, buy/sell etc...
Seems crazy over 10k, but on the other hand, they'd be crazy to let me go over 10k
PM me if you end up looking for another job. I work for a company that has all sorts of open tech, engineering, analyst type positions and is rated as one of the top mid-size companies in the DC area.
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I think you're being precious about it. I also think this part is a woeful miscalculation: "I can get a mediocre job and just never work that hard again."
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Is $10K before taxes $6K after taxes or $500/month? Doesn't seem worth quitting over. Every month you stay there is a trip to Hawaii.
It's not so much the fact that he wants to make 10K more, it's the crazy hoops that he has to go through at this place to get a pretty tiny raise (given that it comes with a promotion). I mean come on - CEO approval for a 10K bump? If that's true (doubtful), his direct and skip-level managers are incredibly ineffective.
If he does actually jump ship, I assume it'll be at a company that is paying him at least 15% more than what he's currently making. (More like 15-20K more)
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PM me if you end up looking for another job. I work for a company that has all sorts of open tech, engineering, analyst type positions and is rated as one of the top mid-size companies in the DC area.
Certainly will do. I'm actively looking. Thanks.
I also think this part is a woeful miscalculation: "I can get a mediocre job and just never work that hard again."
I have 550k saved. At our 4% rule, that 1.83k/month. I can cut my expenses 10% (at least) to get down to 3600. That only leaves me having to earn another 1800/month, or 21.6K/year after taxes. Completely doable.
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I am a terrible poker player because I always think the other person is bluffing. Well, I think the company is bluffing right now and will come through. Could be I am very wrong. If that happens, I really don't see how I can stay. Work quality will certainly suffer, which would make coworkers I actually care about suffer. I'd just be biding my time before something else comes along.
At this point they have to expect that I will quit if I don't get the raise. Maybe they think I'm bluffing. If they say no, and I give my two-weeks notice on the spot, I am really interested to see what happens.
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"Mediocre" jobs are often a lot harder and more stressful than professional ones in one's own field. Plus I get the sense you wouldn't deal well with feeling underpaid.
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Is there anything in particular about the job you don't like? I can see that you've taken on more responsibility without getting an immediate raise. While that may suck, there's a lot more to a job than just what it pays. If it's a job you generally like, then my advice would be to think long and hard before quitting. Some jobs are really sh***y and don't pay well to boot.
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"Mediocre" jobs are often a lot harder and more stressful than professional ones in one's own field. Plus I get the sense you wouldn't deal well with feeling underpaid.
I probably wouldn't go back to entry-level corporate IT. Maybe non-profit or something. Or Starbucks. Or a park. I don't know.
Is there anything in particular about the job you don't like? I can see that you've taken on more responsibility without getting an immediate raise. While that may suck, there's a lot more to a job than just what it pays.
The job is fine. Not great, not terrible.
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The whole process pisses me off. You work hard, you do an amazing job (their scale, not mine. 5/5. average is 3, 4 is a great/above-average job, 5 is amazing), and you climb the ladder and get more money (this is a 500million revenue company, so not some mom and pop shop where everyone is in it together). I contend that they broke that unwritten rule first. The project I work on is probably close to 10% of the company revenue, so the money is there.
If I didn't get more money, why would I work harder? Having people do more complicated and project-critical work, and not adequately compensating, is nuts. I work for money, not great reviews.
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I wouldn't just quit, but start looking for something else while you stay in your position. It might take time to find a good alternative.
For the mediocre jobs, who wants to hire an overqualified person? That person might leave at any time for something better.
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I'm not sure I understand quitting (unless you are just ready to FIRE); but certainly go look elsewhere. Another offer in hand might be enough to get you your raise here if you like it.
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If they say No, my only leverage at that point is to quit on the spot. If I don't, they will know that I'll be looking and will start planning for my departure.
Being close to FIRE certainly isn't helping me play ball.
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Yes but it sounds like you are instigating a power struggle and sort of relishing it. Also my point was, working in Starbucks etc. would not necessarily feel less stressful -- quite the opposite, I'd guess.
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Yes but it sounds like you are instigating a power struggle and sort of relishing it. Also my point was, working in Starbucks etc. would not necessarily feel less stressful -- quite the opposite, I'd guess.
Maybe so, but I think I'll win :)
I don't mind the stress, and am naturally able to handle it well. Undoubtedly it helps me succeed in my current role.
I just thought of something else. If they contend that my salary is on par with my peers in the company, that means it was also on par 2 years ago. My raises have only be a total of 7% over two years, which really isn't that much. That's an even crazier position for them to take.
Anyway, thanks for the input all and letting me vent. I think they'll pay up. Still not sure what I'll do if they don't though.
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In a similar circumstance, I thanked them for checking, throttled back to meet the basic requirements of the job but no more, and started a job hunt.
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This is a business negotiation. You're selling your time for your price. Getting insulted at the price is what is leading to all these hurt feelings. I understand time is important, but it doesn't really serve you to feel slighted and react based on that. In the end, the only way to prove 3% raises and your current salary are below market is to go prove it with an offer in hand and you're both free to take that offer and your employer is free to choose not to match it.
The difficult part of this process is your peers probably give much more variable effort than the pay justifies. Salaries tend to be in a pretty tight range for people who started in similar positions. But even if you are technically working higher grade jobs and not getting paid for it, you are still growing your value and beefing up your resume. Turning down progress only limits your upside even in the short term - unless you are prepared to FIRE before any value can be extracted.
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Yes but it sounds like you are instigating a power struggle and sort of relishing it. Also my point was, working in Starbucks etc. would not necessarily feel less stressful -- quite the opposite, I'd guess.
This depends on the person. My coffee shop job is still my favorite one I've ever had. I would definitely go back to it if money wasn't an object.
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Yes but it sounds like you are instigating a power struggle and sort of relishing it. Also my point was, working in Starbucks etc. would not necessarily feel less stressful -- quite the opposite, I'd guess.
This depends on the person. My coffee shop job is still my favorite one I've ever had. I would definitely go back to it if money wasn't an object.
I took a job at Borders between six-figure jobs and thoroughly enjoyed it. Many of my fellow employees were PhD candidates at Rutgers. I had a CPA, worked as a cashier, and made damn sure my cash register balanced to the penny every time. I also got great deals on Christmas presents.
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My typical experience has been when they say I don't understand the business or a raise"needs higher approval", I can find another job that pays 10 to 15% more pretty easily.
The problem with switching jobs is you start over and have to prove your self again so you're going to be working harder for a year or two.
My guess is you never get CEO approval, and should start looking for another position but be picky about it. At the end of the day, it may not be worth it to leave depending on intangibles (not enough info other than the immediate frustration). You may also be able to get 20% more, which may change your thinking.
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35
D.C. Suburbs in tech. Company typically has lower than market salaries.
I've been there 12 years. Great reviews every year. Raise was 3.5% last year and again this year. Before them it was higher %, and I was OK. Still climbing the ladder
I've taken increasing responsibility and play a critical role on a project. Essentially a functional promotion with no salary promotion
I voiced my displeasure with my boss and with his boss. Said I wanted another 10k (make 115 after bonus)
Boss#2 (VP) went to boss#3 (Senior VP). #3 said they will do a review of comparable positions/experience/salaries in the company and if there is "inequity" they would adjust. Would probably have to get CEO approval. This is a 2000 employee 500million revenue company. CEO approval seems crazy, but hey, that's what it is.
Anyway, if it comes back denied, I think I'm going to quit. No other job lined up yet, but significant savings, e.g. Fuck you money
Monthly expenses of 4K. I can get a mediocre job and just never work that hard again. I'm pretty good at getting by and making money from credit cards, buy/sell etc...
Seems crazy over 10k, but on the other hand, they'd be crazy to let me go over 10k
If you don't get what you're asking with a company with those sort of profit margins then you'll have your answer on whether or not you're actually valuable to the company.
A reality that many people don't like to hear is that most of the time, you are replaceable. Unless you have a very rare skill, or are exceptionally good at what you do compared to what the average job applicant can do, you are replaceable. There is a cost associated with replacing a person (time interviewing, moving packages, etc..). Companies usually like to avoid this, but it doesn't mean they can't find someone new. I'm just saying this so that you can be more aware of what your value to the company really is. Since you have no back up offer from another company, you have limited ammunition. I would apply to other companies first. Even if you are close to FIRE...
Either way, it's always good to ask for a higher salary. I wouldn't assume the company is going to can you even if they don't meet your demands (then again, only you know your company).
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Just got some news today about my employment situation too. May start an advice thread once I process the information.
Back on topic, how are you close to FIRE if your monthly expenses are 4K but your investment at 4% only yields 1.8K? I guess I'm close to FIRE too...1.6K yield and 2.6k in expenses.
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How long is your commute?
I think two things:
1) you are overestimating how much they need you
2) you are underestimating how much another company will be willing to pay for your services.
In other words, it's not about you and you're making it all about you. Go to another company, and they will make it all about you, until you're hired. Jump around. That's great and usually makes for a better employee because you're exposed to different corporate settings. But in the end, just figure out if the pros outweigh the cons.
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I agree with others that this is a business negotiation and you are taking it personally. With FU money, that is your prerogative, you have the freedom to do that. It is probably not the most efficient path to FIRE, though. Sometimes if someone has insulted you, you choose to not act rationally and it feels good. You may also later regret it. But you might not. ;)
I agree you need leverage to get more money in this job, but an offer in hand is more effective than threatening to quit if your pay bump is declined. My guess is you are quite dissatisfied with this job for many reasons, and the pay bump issue has become a line in the sand. If they decline a raise, you can either re-think and re-draw the line, or quit.
Keep us updated on how this all works out. Also, check out this thread:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/epic-fu-money-stories/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/epic-fu-money-stories/)
Sometimes you can get the satisfaction by living vicariously through others' stories. Sometimes you gotta be the hero.
People want to be appreciated and get money heaped upon them without having to ask for it. It rarely happens. Those who find leverage and use it effectively without being a jerk about it seem to do the best from what I've seen. It's the difference between out-bluffing and out-maneuvering.
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I don't really have advice about this but am very curious. Sounds like maybe I have been doing this annual review thing wrong for the last 10 years and might need some tips.
They gave you a 3.5% raise (this has seemed like a pretty standard "good but not great job" raise in my past)
You want an additional 8.5% raise on top of this?
I know you said you took on more responsibility but did you get a title change or promotion with that change. If not that might have been where you messed up. I have not ever been about to see those kind of increases without a promotion or a job change. Please report back if your request works out, I am very curious how I could go about asking for this type of review without stepping on my own toes.
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Back on topic, how are you close to FIRE if your monthly expenses are 4K but your investment at 4% only yields 1.8K? I guess I'm close to FIRE too...1.6K yield and 2.6k in expenses.
I can get my monthly expenses down. I am also very good at making money from credit cards and other financial arbitrage. That added to a part-time job and I'll be fine.
How long is your commute?
I think two things:
1) you are overestimating how much they need you
2) you are underestimating how much another company will be willing to pay for your services.
15 minutes.
Both of your points are valid and that is what concerns me. But I think it would only be natural to have some fear and trepidation at this stage.
I agree you need leverage to get more money in this job, but an offer in hand is more effective than threatening to quit if your pay bump is declined. My guess is you are quite dissatisfied with this job for many reasons, and the pay bump issue has become a line in the sand. If they decline a raise, you can either re-think and re-draw the line, or quit.
Keep us updated on how this all works out. Also, check out this thread:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/epic-fu-money-stories/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/epic-fu-money-stories/)
That thread makes it worse :)
You are right with dissatisfaction. It's not the best, most exciting work. But, that never bothered me that much.
I don't really have advice about this but am very curious. Sounds like maybe I have been doing this annual review thing wrong for the last 10 years and might need some tips.
They gave you a 3.5% raise (this has seemed like a pretty standard "good but not great job" raise in my past)
You want an additional 8.5% raise on top of this?
I know you said you took on more responsibility but did you get a title change or promotion with that change. If not that might have been where you messed up. I have not ever been about to see those kind of increases without a promotion or a job change. Please report back if your request works out, I am very curious how I could go about asking for this type of review without stepping on my own toes.
Yeah, another 10k. Currently after this 3.5% raise, 115.
The company doesn't do title changes or true "promotions" so it's not like I got screwed while others are climbing up. There are lots of PhDs and I don't think they really understand the tech world. Boss #3 isn't a tech person. Boss #2 was at one point.
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I'll be sure to update when I hear something. With the holidays and everything, not sure if it will be this week though.
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If you are as awesome as you seem to think you are and work in tech in the DC area, find something else.
You can trivially get that extra $10k there and potentially a lot more if you have 10 years of experience.
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Yes but it sounds like you are instigating a power struggle and sort of relishing it. Also my point was, working in Starbucks etc. would not necessarily feel less stressful -- quite the opposite, I'd guess.
Maybe so, but I think I'll win :)
I don't say this a lot, but that is a dumb attitude to have and a good way to get fired and burn bridges in the process. Regardless of how strong your current position is, the tide turns quickly and the goodwill is some of the best capital to have when things go bad.
If they come back with a raise (even a nominal one, say 3-5K), say thank you first and then (if you want) express that you were hoping for 10K. At that point it's not worth pushing it because it's not going to happen. If you want more money, you act excited, do great work, and in your offtime you look for a better job.
Strongarming your employer is childish and unprofessional and a good way to earn a bad reputation.
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This is a good example of the dark side of Mustachianism. On one hand, you seem to have FI squared away, but you could be more diplomatic about the leverage. On the other hand, you are acting like a terrible employee. Maybe you feel entitled to make demands since you think you can walk away, but in a perfect situation, a Mustachian should be a good employee until a mutually agreed parting of ways. For one, many compatriots are stuck at that company and you ultimately depend on them buying stuff and being stuck doing the crap that you didn't want to do. Two, you might just have to return to the working world if health insurance, global arbitrage, and credit hacking all fizzle (which is entirely possible).
Don't take this that I wish you ill, make the most of being on top of the world like Pete did! Fortune favors the bold
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Do you have an expensive D.C. area house? What's your stache if you leave D.C.?
I think you should apply to other jobs, not just quit this one in a huff.
Edit: dyac
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It is called FU money for a reason right guys?
If OP feels he is worth more then by all means go out and get it at your current company or a different one. If $10k happens to be your number for go for it. Quit your job, F the man, etc etc. Sounds like your expenses are manageable and you have a nice net worth, I say do whatever you feel like.
Personally I don't think six figure incomes don't grow on trees, but for you they might!
Check out livingafi.com He quit his stressful jobs a few times just because he felt like it was no longer worth it, and had no job lined up.
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I suggest you stop busting your hump for this company, and use the time you free up to look for a replacement job. Job hunting while working is hard. I have never figured out how to do that. You are a lot more desirable to a new company if you already have a job, however. DC is a target rich environment for new jobs.
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I think you hit the head on the nail when you first said this "Company typically has lower than market salaries." Some companies are just not going to pay any extra. Being there for 12 years and probably getting merit raises every year, you may very well be one of the highest paid employees.
If you want more that this company offers, you may have already tapped the well dry. I would look around. Unemployment numbers are down, skilled labor in the DC area is hard to find, and your resume is probably chalked full of lots of experience.
Salary at 110k + bonus... After 12 years? In the DC area? I would be looking around.
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Salary at 110k + bonus... After 12 years? In the DC area? I would be looking around.
This. $110k for tech work is not really a high salary in DC. Granted, I don't know exactly what you do.
The easiest way to increase your pay is to get another job offer. You are worth what someone is willing to pay you. In my experience, sometimes you have to quit you way to higher pay, especially in tech. Ill walk you thru my journey.
As a software engineer in the DC area, I started as a contractor at $55/hr (had 2 years experience at the time). After a year I was let go, but found another gig at $85/hr. I worked that job for a year, then found out that people that had an inferior work product were pulling in well over $100/hr. I tried to convince my client to up me to $100/hr but they resisted. I (quickly) found another gig at $105/hr that increased to $110/hr after 6 months. I worked that job for a year. My client's company was bought by another company, which caused pay issues, so I left for lack of getting payed (the risks of being a contractor) for another $110/hr job. I eventually collected all money I was owed but had already left. After 6 months at this new job, I was contacted by a west coast tech megacorp due to the fact that someone I worked with previously had worked with them and recommended me as a contractor. At that point my rate jumped to $150/hr (I was asking 200/hr), and now I work for megacorp (from DC) as an FTE.
Point is it's on you to seek greener pastures. At no point in my journey was I anything less than professional. I always gave my current client the opportunity to match, and always offered to stay on (within reason) to train my replacement. I always left at an appropriate time in the development cycle (i.e. never 2 weeks before a major release). I burned no bridges (except with company that had payment problems).
At the same time, I always made it known that I do what I do for money, as it ultimately gives me freedom. In other words, employer/clients always knew that I wanted to payed. I set salary expectations from the beginning. I have never received anything less than a stellar review, other than at my first gig. I always tried to live up to what I was getting payed; everyday I asked (and still ask) am I worth what I am getting payed. If the answer is no, I worked harder.
Moral of the story is, sometimes you need to quit your way to the top, but there is a professional way to do it.
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Salary at 110k + bonus... After 12 years? In the DC area? I would be looking around.
This. $110k for tech work is not really a high salary in DC. Granted, I don't know exactly what you do.
The easiest way to increase your pay is to get another job offer. You are worth what someone is willing to pay you. In my experience, sometimes you have to quit you way to higher pay, especially in tech. Ill walk you thru my journey.
As a software engineer in the DC area, I started as a contractor at $55/hr (had 2 years experience at the time). After a year I was let go, but found another gig at $85/hr. I worked that job for a year, then found out that people that had an inferior work product were pulling in well over $100/hr. I tried to convince my client to up me to $100/hr but they resisted. I (quickly) found another gig at $105/hr that increased to $110/hr after 6 months. I worked that job for a year. My client's company was bought by another company, which caused pay issues, so I left for lack of getting payed (the risks of being a contractor) for another $110/hr job. I eventually collected all money I was owed but had already left. After 6 months at this new job, I was contacted by a west coast tech megacorp due to the fact that someone I worked with previously had worked with them and recommended me as a contractor. At that point my rate jumped to $150/hr (I was asking 200/hr), and now I work for megacorp (from DC) as an FTE.
Point is it's on you to seek greener pastures. At no point in my journey was I anything less than professional. I always gave my current client the opportunity to match, and always offered to stay on (within reason) to train my replacement. I always left at an appropriate time in the development cycle (i.e. never 2 weeks before a major release). I burned no bridges (except with company that had payment problems).
At the same time, I always made it known that I do what I do for money, as it ultimately gives me freedom. In other words, employer/clients always knew that I wanted to payed. I set salary expectations from the beginning. I have never received anything less than a stellar review, other than at my first gig. I always tried to live up to what I was getting payed; everyday I asked (and still ask) am I worth what I am getting payed. If the answer is no, I worked harder.
Moral of the story is, sometimes you need to quit your way to the top, but there is a professional way to do it.
It's very difficult to tell from your description whether you are talking about a pay rate/hour or a billing rate/hour. They are vastly different. It would help to know.
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Just to give a quick update also:
- Current company is still doing a salary review. It's been a few weeks. Boss #2 is talking with other VPs this week.
- I'm not going to quit on the spot if I don't get the raise. That would be stupid. Thank you all for convincing me that would be an irrational and emotional response. Even though I'm close, I'm not ready to FIRE yet.
- I have a phone interview scheduled with a competitor on Monday. Already passed screening Q's. The job would be very similar to what I do now and would be a perfect fit - I just need to convince them of that also. Tough thing is that it's 45 min away vs the 15 min I have now.
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Lots of good points in this thread, however... I have to say... I LOL'ed hard at the fact that they are kind of trying to have you back down by threatening you that they might have to go to the CEO for what appears to be a reasonable raise (considering the place is 2000 employees).
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It's very difficult to tell from your description whether you are talking about a pay rate/hour or a billing rate/hour. They are vastly different. It would help to know.
Those rates were my rates to my client (what I got paid). The client was charging the customer a higher rate. I don't know all of them but I do know at my first job, where I was getting $55/hr the bill rate to the customer was $120/hr. I think when I was charging $105/hr the bill rate was $125/hr. In my experience with contracting the people actually doing the work often make less for their toil then the ones doing the billing.
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"Mediocre" jobs are often a lot harder and more stressful than professional ones in one's own field. Plus I get the sense you wouldn't deal well with feeling underpaid.
I probably wouldn't go back to entry-level corporate IT. Maybe non-profit or something. Or Starbucks. Or a park. I don't know.
Is there anything in particular about the job you don't like? I can see that you've taken on more responsibility without getting an immediate raise. While that may suck, there's a lot more to a job than just what it pays.
The job is fine. Not great, not terrible.
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The whole process pisses me off. You work hard, you do an amazing job (their scale, not mine. 5/5. average is 3, 4 is a great/above-average job, 5 is amazing), and you climb the ladder and get more money (this is a 500million revenue company, so not some mom and pop shop where everyone is in it together). I contend that they broke that unwritten rule first. The project I work on is probably close to 10% of the company revenue, so the money is there.
If I didn't get more money, why would I work harder? Having people do more complicated and project-critical work, and not adequately compensating, is nuts. I work for money, not great reviews.
I feel you.
Just saying that because I've been there, still there, have the t-shirt.
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- I have a phone interview scheduled with a competitor on Monday. Already passed screening Q's. The job would be very similar to what I do now and would be a perfect fit - I just need to convince them of that also. Tough thing is that it's 45 min away vs the 15 min I have now.
Keep in mind that this will cost you an hour of your private time per day (5 hours a week) pluss extra commuting cost. If you end getting home later and therefore eat out instead of cooking yourself, a salary increase might not be as big as you would expect.
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The one thing I would add is if you are mobile strongly think about taking a job in a cheaper area of the country. I worked in DC for 13 months in 2007-2008 at the time I was making about $80,000 a year and I found it impossible to save money in any significant quantity. My rent was $2300 a month and it wasn't even that nice. My utilities ranged from $700-$1000 a month.
Making 85-95K annually in Atlanta, Dallas, San Antonio etc is way better than making 110 in DC.
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If you are dissatisfied with the pay in your current, managerial role do the following:
-keep the job
-shop for a new managerial job that (a) meets salary desires, and (b) is even closer to home than your 15 min commute - ideally bike distance.
-share your resume and strict requirements with a recruiter.
-be patient, the perfect job might appear a year or two from now.
If you are dissatisfied with your current managerial role:
-do all the above, except look for an operational role.
There seems to be a tension between what you want. If you want the pay, look for a managerial role. If you want low stress, look for an operational role. I understand the problem is you have a managerial role with operational pay. You need to pick a path, or it could harm your personal marketing efforts by leading to the sort of impressions others have pointed out.
Your biggest career asset is not the FU money, it's your current job. Your current job allows you to shop carefully and long-term for your next job. If you were out of work today, you might have to settle for a role you didn't necessarily want at a pay rate you don't want with a commute you don't want. You're more likely to be hired while currently employed, and with 12y experience with no job hopping, you should be able to command a premium.
While you look for the perfect opportunity, work with a recruiter on your resume (it's worse than you think) and do some reading on interviewing skills (they're worse than you think). Despite your qualifications, you could easily blow an interview by stumbling through common/typical questions, and THAT will affect the salary offered.
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Your biggest career asset is not the FU money, it's your current job. Your current job allows you to shop carefully and long-term for your next job. If you were out of work today, you might have to settle for a role you didn't necessarily want at a pay rate you don't want with a commute you don't want. You're more likely to be hired while currently employed...
This. I just started a new job making significantly more than I made with my previous employer, and I attribute it a lot to having a job and having options. By the time everything was said and done, I rejected 3 offers from different companies because either the salary didn't line up with the number I had in mind, or the long-term growth wasn't there.
My current company outbid the second highest salary by almost 30% (way more than I had expected), and gave me a signing bonus to boot. The point is your background is worth vastly different amounts to different companies (even if you'll essentially do the same work at each company.)
In order to find the company that values you most you need to have the flexibility to say no to everyone else.
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Yes but it sounds like you are instigating a power struggle and sort of relishing it. Also my point was, working in Starbucks etc. would not necessarily feel less stressful -- quite the opposite, I'd guess.
Maybe so, but I think I'll win :)
I don't mind the stress, and am naturally able to handle it well. Undoubtedly it helps me succeed in my current role.
I just thought of something else. If they contend that my salary is on par with my peers in the company, that means it was also on par 2 years ago. My raises have only be a total of 7% over two years, which really isn't that much. That's an even crazier position for them to take.
Anyway, thanks for the input all and letting me vent. I think they'll pay up. Still not sure what I'll do if they don't though.
I was getting 2% annual raises at my last company, with performance reviews that basically said I was perfect. 3.5%/year consistently is not terrible if you're staying at the same company with the same title.
That said, you're not likely to ever make substantially more than you do now unless you leave. In my experience (IT), a new hire into a role will be paid more than an existing employee promoted/transitioned into the exact same role.
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That said, you're not likely to ever make substantially more than you do now unless you leave. In my experience (IT), a new hire into a role will be paid more than an existing employee promoted/transitioned into the exact same role.
That indeed seems to be the case. If you want your salary to increase a lot, you'll need to change jobs. My my DH also had en ex colleague to apply for a job in his company. He offered him a good pay. But the person stayed in his current job. It obviously was a job interview only to increase the pay in his current position.
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That said, you're not likely to ever make substantially more than you do now unless you leave. In my experience (IT), a new hire into a role will be paid more than an existing employee promoted/transitioned into the exact same role.
That indeed seems to be the case. If you want your salary to increase a lot, you'll need to change jobs. My my DH also had en ex colleague to apply for a job in his company. He offered him a good pay. But the person stayed in his current job. It obviously was a job interview only to increase the pay in his current position.
I 100% agree with the above. My situation was very similar to yours 2 years ago (good IT job, good company, but felt underpaid and just kind of in a funk). I tried for raises/promotions multiple times, but what ultimately got me the raise I wanted, was moving to a different job within the company.
My company is larger, so maybe I had more options to move into a similar role within, but that move was 2 years ago, and I am not only making a good bit more money but I enjoy it so much more. The change was really what I needed, the money was nice, but in hindsight, I'd make the move for a lot less money, as the change was important as I was getting 'bored'.
Good luck
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There are some pretty constructive replies there already. For my perspective, if they already knew you want more $, otherwise.... Well, you probably need to have a solid plan B ready in the wing. They may very much want to give you the $ to keep you, but companies/mgmt. generally don't like to set a precedent, especially on salary negotiation after hiring. They do not want your colleagues to follow suits. This is not about you and your demand, regardless how much you deserve the raise. They are looking at the picture from a different sea-level.
So, I will have my resume ready and start checking around. Next time, I will have all my ducks in the row before I say a word. You won't get a raise if you don't ask, but be prepared and very prepared to leave; and leave with class. Tech world is small, you never know whom you will be reporting to/working with down the road.
Good luck.
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- I have a phone interview scheduled with a competitor on Monday. Already passed screening Q's. The job would be very similar to what I do now and would be a perfect fit - I just need to convince them of that also. Tough thing is that it's 45 min away vs the 15 min I have now.
SuperSecret,
An offer from a competitor is the leverage you need (which you do not have now) to make the money you want without taking on a longer commute. Keep looking if this place doesn't make you an offer. An offer shows both what the market is currently willing to pay for your skills AND that if they do not match or beat it, you will leave. Right now they do not know either, and may be willing to chance that you'd stay with no increase.
If you are just emotionally done with the current workplace and ready to move on, you could:
1) keep looking for a good offer that is not a longer commute,
2) accept a longer commute position knowing it won't be long if you are close to FIRE, or
3) accept a longer commute and keep looking for other opportunities.
I probably wouldn't do the last one because I don't like looking for new jobs. Might also burn a bridge if you leave the longer commute place while still in training/orientation, but you might not care. You can also move to not have a long commute.
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Bit of an update for those still curious:
1 - I passed the phone interview with the competitor, and was scheduled for in-person. However, I declined to continue. It looked like it was going to be a lateral instead of an upward move. After a lot of thought, it was just not worth the extra commute and stress for relatively slightly more money (moving is not an option - kids). I don't want to have to put in a lot of effort to start climbing the ladder again. I've avoided the rat race thus far, and inserting myself at this point would make no sense. I don't need the money.
2 - Boss #1 and #2, met with boss #3 (who I've never met) and seemingly some other people to conduct the salary review. This was a few weeks ago. #2 tells me that boss #3 (SVP) has a standing meeting with CEO (who has a history in IT), where I am an agenda item next month. Absurd that is has to go that far, but out of my hands. I view that as a positive step. So, things are taking a long time, but still moving along.
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Not sure why you cancelled on #1. You could have gotten a good idea on the actual current market value if competitor offered you more $$$ for a lateral move. Maybe this knowledge was not worth the trade-off of time required, but it would also have been good interviewing practice.
Keep looking. You may be able to move that timeline on #2 up sooner if you have an offer in hand. I understand not wanting to show an offer you would not accept (a la #1) just to try to do this. I know I wouldn't have the stomach for that kind of bluff.
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I came to the realization that any new job at this point would require entry into the rat race.
I'm planning to retire early in 6 years or so. I don't need the money, and it doesn't seem worth it. I have it pretty good at my current job.
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I came to the realization that any new job at this point would require entry into the rat race.
I'm planning to retire early in 6 years or so. I don't need the money, and it doesn't seem worth it. I have it pretty good at my current job.
So you may not be underpaid after all? Because the higher salaries you were drooling over also require more work?
By rat race I assume you mean long hours, high achievement, and "driven" kind of performance. I think of rat race as full time employment doing something I'm not really excited about. So while my job is not long hours when considered against other full time positions, it is still higher than I want, so for now I'm still a rat and I'm still running.
Are you going to keep looking? I ask because, if not, that's a big change in perspective. You were about ready to walk.
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I don't have much to add to what's already been said. However, if it goes to you getting another offer I personally would take the new job. You already know how hard it is to get a raise with the current company. The unknown can sometimes be intimidating but you will have a new base and it would be easier to get raises in the new company. If you stay and get the raise in your current company, you probably will not see another significant raise until you push again. Also, you may find the annual raises drop some.
In my entry level job I got another offer to get the raise and stayed with my current employer. I found that they just gave me more work so my effective hourly rate never went up. After 2.5 years, I finally left for another job with equal pay. The new company gave me a 40% raise after 6 months. This was a contract renegotiation at the end of a 6 month contract. I was vastly underpaid and didn't know it until working with the new employees at the new company that were more in touch with the market rate.
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As another long termer (9 years) I can empathize with the OP's annoyance. I've regularly got top reviews for the past 5 years. I also get decent overall pay raises.
Yet, I am also fantasizing about walking out, and am also at or near the FI threshold.
My annoyance doesn't come from compensation, but from being denied opportunity.
I've been lip serviced for years and my boss is finally moving to another position.
In spite of all the speeches he gave me about taking over for him, he 180'd recently and said that they want to go with someone with more managerial experience. I wasn't even given an opportunity to interview! This after plenty other questionable people have gotten promotions and he always trotted out the line 'you have to give the person a chance!'. It seems though that chances are for other people...not myself.
So fine...business decision...move on.
I went ahead and applied for another internal opportunity just the other day.
I get a call today from my boss, all huffy that I didn't 'let him know' ahead of time that I was going to apply for another position. I'm thinking...wtf!? Seriously? You cannot be surprised by this!
Anyway. I'm as irked as I can be.... browbeaten for taking my future into my own hands. I can only surmise that its going to inconvenience him because he delegates critical work to me, and if I'm not there, he's actually going to be on the hook for it during his transition. I've actually noticed a trend in my location where the truly best performers in a particular role get held back. I can't help but think its intentional.
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^ More likely, there are people who do wonderful technical or operational work, but would not make good managers (either in someone's opinion or in reality). I know many such people. They would flop as managers.
Assertiveness, sociability, big-picture thinking, a willingness to consider radical change, charisma, legal awareness, political awareness, accounting knowledge, and salesmanship are actually rare commodities among IT trained folks. Develop and/or show off these traits if you want to be considered for management.
Keep in mind, it's a totally different career. Instead of monitoring RAID arrays for failures, you'll be trying to determine if an employee is abusing sick time. Just because it pays more doesn't mean you should attempt it.
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^ More likely, there are people who do wonderful technical or operational work, but would not make good managers (either in someone's opinion or in reality). I know many such people. They would flop as managers.
Assertiveness, sociability, big-picture thinking, a willingness to consider radical change, charisma, legal awareness, political awareness, accounting knowledge, and salesmanship are actually rare commodities among IT trained folks. Develop and/or show off these traits if you want to be considered for management.
Keep in mind, it's a totally different career. Instead of monitoring RAID arrays for failures, you'll be trying to determine if an employee is abusing sick time. Just because it pays more doesn't mean you should attempt it.
Indeed. Interesting that I have most of the attributes in spades that you mention. Further interesting that the other top performers I've seen denied also tend to be out of the box thinkers and doers.
I've even attended the most prestigious corporate managerial annual retreat at my company...an opportunity that <0.5% of employees receive, and one that was offered to me by my boss' boss (not my direct one!). Actually my boss was surprised when that happened. He congratulated me, but I wonder if there wasn't some underlying resentment?
The signals of a positive career path are pretty blinding, yet the outcome is not actually following. Its very odd.
Every time I go to HQ I get the same question from multiple people of when I'll move out there. Its fairly obvious my talent is appreciated in other circles.
And then there are also the junior guys I mentor/guide daily that tell me they'd come work for me in a heartbeat.
So am I really just a bad candidate and questioning my boss's motives are all in my head?
Its funny, because I actually strive to be most of what my boss isn't as it pertains to my co-workers. I'm always looking to leverage their strengths, endeavor to give them the tools they need to succeed, and encourage their development. Oh and I'm actually genuinely happy when I see others are successful with something. I don't hold back praise.
Maybe I'm really not cut out for the role... (cue sarcasm)
Sometimes...(maybe many times)...there just might really be incompetence and/or bullshit politics afoot.
I'm fine with that. I'm not fine with someone sticking a knife in my back though. I'm pretty certain I never will be.
I'm a pretty logical person and my situation just doesn't compute. I've made my desires/goals clear for years. I admit I am a fool for putting any faith in my boss. In hindsight, I'm nearly certain I work for a sociopath. Perhaps not an extreme one, but one with significant tendencies. I'd always kidded that he had a split personality. Be your best buddy in the morning, then go off on something relatively insignificant in the afternoon. I largely brushed it off as an eccentric personality and adapted my interactions accordingly. My share of these 'snaps' is fortunately isolated. I do feel bad for many of my coworkers who experience this more regularly.
Life isn't fair.
One benefit that FI offers is more leverage in trying to actively make it a little more fair with little to no fear of the consequences. Its what I'm doing now...taking responsibility for myself and not expecting someone else to have my back. Its clear my boss doesn't. EFF him...seriously.