Author Topic: I had it made  (Read 15604 times)

LeaRae

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
I had it made
« on: May 11, 2014, 07:41:03 PM »
Hi All,

I had it made.  I rent my apartment for $665/month (a bit spendy, but a good deal for me to live by myself) and now things have changed and it's not that great anymore.

See, my office WAS just 3 miles from home.  My bank and grocery store were between my office and my home.  I could bike on a paved, wooded trail to get most of the way there without even going on the road.  My apartment is close to the interstate for my once weekly quick trip to the city to play softball, and right by the train station if I don't want to drive.

But now it's all ruined.  The office moved about 25 miles further south because some of the partners wanted it closer to their homes.  When I expressed my distaste for that decision, they just said, "we've been driving that far for 2 years, it's your turn."  So now, a hand full of us I have a lot longer commute, and a few of them have a much shorter commute.  For the short term at least, I'm going to be stuck with an hour commute in rush hour traffic twice a day.

Like hell it's going to be that way for long.

In addition to that, I've had some skepticism about the success of (their?) our [2.5 year old startup] company.  We aren't doing as well as I think we should be.   I'm a contractor and I'm paid (dare I say) 50% less than I'm worth (according to sites that list salaries and searching for comparable job descriptions), I don't get benes, and the partners are restricting more and more of our freedoms.  No more work-from-home days, mandatory working hours, etc...

It was worth it at first since I was new to the area and new to the software field (professionally, at least) and got the offer right away!  Hot damn a job!  And being a contractor supplied a lot of freedom for me to explore this new land I moved to.  But now the freedoms are being taken away, the compensation isn't scaling, and all I have to show for it is an [insulting?] 2.5% ownership in the company that goes away if I leave.

I've had some long difficult conversations with a couple of my more friendly colleagues expressing my distaste, and they agree with my frustrations.  The partners are concerned that I am no longer 100% invested in the success of their company, but I haven't worked up the confidence to tell them why.  I compared my work load to shoveling all the snow off of Mount Everest by myself - of course I'm grumpy.

I get a huge windfall [like, an extra 15% of my salary) bonus when I complete my new project in 2 months (a stretch, but I want that cash), so once that's complete and I get paid, I'll stop working double shifts and start considering what I want to do to solve this problem.  In the mean time, I've taken on one additional client for a couple-month side project, and started a project of my own to hopefully initiate a couple more sources of income.

So, I am looking at apartments near my new office.  The only decent ones I find are either priced HIGHER - in the realm of $900/mo for a single bedroom - or impose ridiculous religious restrictions because of BYU being near by.  And I mean really ridiculous - like no drinking, no casual sex, no ONLINE GAMING..... my three favorite things!!  And they're in a much less desirable location (for me at least). 

I'm nervous about moving and signing a lease if I am going to be leaving the company soon.  I'd hate to be stuck with a commute in the other direction for several months if I take another job.  I really like my current place. 

I am considering renegotiating my contract with them.  If I worked part time, I could focus on other projects and other sources of income, boosting my own company further, and potentially a lot further.  I do not strictly need my full salary, and I could get by on half (but I'd have to stop saving, at least in the short term).


Anyways, lots of stresses vented.  Help?

CarDude

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Location: Chicago, IL
  • Beep Beep!
    • The CCD
Re: I had it made
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2014, 07:56:13 PM »
Start saving and planning your exit. You aren't happy with the job and a move closer to work will just postpone the inevitable.

TomTX

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3440
  • Location: Texas
Re: I had it made
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2014, 07:58:21 PM »
Start looking for a new job close to where you want to live.

oldtoyota

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3141
Re: I had it made
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2014, 08:00:36 PM »
You might want to look up employment laws. If you are really a contractor, then I believe that means the company can't dictate the conditions of your employment. By that, I mean they can't tell you when or where to do the work. If you have to report to an office for set hours, then you are probably an employee according to the law and need to be treated like one.

Again, look up the laws to be certain because I am not a lawyer.

jba302

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Re: I had it made
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2014, 08:04:16 PM »
to piggyback oldtoyota -

http://www.suu.edu/ad/controller/pdf/EmployeevsIndependentContractor.pdf

Reading your post, it sounds to me like you are misclassified and should be a full employee. They can get in some shit for that for several reasons. I would polish up my resume and depending on how big of assholes they are, consider reporting them to your state labor counsel.

phred

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 506
Re: I had it made
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2014, 08:08:34 PM »
consider reporting them to your state labor counsel.
at which time his job will shortly end

LeaRae

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: I had it made
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2014, 08:26:21 PM »
Thanks for that link; I am aware of the shady nature of my contractor status.  It's part of the reason I am grumpy about things.

Thegoblinchief

  • Guest
Re: I had it made
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2014, 08:29:32 PM »
If you're working double shifts, why are you driving in rush hour?

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4734
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: I had it made
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2014, 08:50:42 PM »
WTF? Religious restrictions on apartments? How is that not a violation of the Fair Housing Act or something?!

zolotiyeruki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: I had it made
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2014, 09:12:44 PM »
WTF? Religious restrictions on apartments? How is that not a violation of the Fair Housing Act or something?!
As a BYU grad, let me shed some light on the subject.  BYU is sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  As such, students who choose to attend BYU also agree to abide by BYU's honor code, which indeed prohibits alcohol and pre- (or extra-) marital sex.  As far as I know, there's no prohibition on online gaming (heaven knows I did plenty of that while I attended BYU!), although *gambling* is against the honor code.  Non-married students must live in "BYU-approved housing," the standards for which are found here and which include requirements like maintenance, adequate square footage, no co-ed dorms/apartments, etc.

Back to the topic at hand, it doesn't sound like the kind of job I'd stick around for, to take your point of view at face value.  I'd say stick around for the bonus, find a new job (housing's expensive in the Happy Valley anyway), and bail.

cotterpin

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: I had it made
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2014, 09:21:37 PM »
As a contractor, you should look into deducting mileage. No need to mention your status to the company. That'll shake out of the tree on its own. Although, if you are considered a stock holder (2.5%), you might want to do some research. From my past experience working in payroll, the employer is the one who will catch it when/if it hits the fan.

LeaRae

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: I had it made
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2014, 09:26:28 PM »
As far as the housing restrictions, I think that's fine.  Kind of weird, but fine.  One of the ads I found on KSL restricted online gaming.  Sucks, because it was actually a good looking place.  The two things most important to me in finding a place to live are freedom and privacy.  Living somewhere that policed what genders enter your house (I am a blur of genders, myself) and what you can and can't do lack on freedom, and probably on privacy to enforce those rules as well.

I'd much rather live closer to salt lake than farther from it.  But, honestly, somewhere in the WI countryside would be best.  Closer to family and farther from everything else.  :-)  But I like Salt Lake just fine.

I do have 2.5% of the company, but it is not official stock, more of an "option plan" that doesn't take effect until I pay for it after a 5 year vesting period.  It has some bogus rules that the management made it sound like a super great deal with, but when you read the fine print it's kind of embarrassing that they were excited about offering that.

BFGirl

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
Re: I had it made
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2014, 09:34:18 PM »
consider reporting them to your state labor counsel.
at which time his job will shortly end

That might be considered retaliation which could give the OP some additional legal rights. 

It may be a good idea to consult with an attorney to get some idea what your legal rights may be.

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4734
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: I had it made
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2014, 09:44:12 PM »
Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with people choosing to attend a private religious college, and that college imposing religious restrictions on them. What I have a problem with is the religious college (effectively) imposing the same restrictions on other random non-affiliated people just because they want to live in the same area!

If BYU wants to expel students for bringing a date home to their apartment, that's one thing. But when the landlord wants to evict non-students for doing so, that sounds like a violation of the law (although I'm no expert).

LeaRae

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: I had it made
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2014, 10:10:40 PM »
Maybe.  I don't care a lot.  Like I said, I'm not interested in any place even claiming to follow those restrictions.  Freedom and privacy and what not.

But this isn't really a discussion about that...

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8626
  • Location: Australia or another awesome area
Re: I had it made
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2014, 10:53:58 PM »
Hope the venting helped.

How far are you from FI?

LeaRae

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: I had it made
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2014, 11:38:00 PM »
Far enough.  I've been an MMM reader for only a bit.  I have started saving as much as possible, and I've been slapping as much as possible down on student loans.  Once the loans are gone, I should achieve FI in 3-5 years after that.  So looking at a 8-10 year plan.  But if I could get a job making twice what I am (what I'm worth, according to some sites that list salaries) that would be halved.

Rube

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: I had it made
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2014, 11:50:47 PM »
No offense but this post makes you sound like a pain in the ass. Actually that might be unfair because I think some of the responses are jading me. I'm just not understanding the legal recourse part of the equation. I think you need to move on be it sooner or later.

Zamboni

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
Re: I had it made
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2014, 12:03:25 AM »
This sounds like a drag, and it is, but companies do this type of thing all the time.  In fact, sometimes companies move the location not just down the road but to another state or even country with the fabulous offer that you can keep your job if you move (often at your own expense.)  Sometimes all of the employees just lose their jobs by default even if they are willing to move.  The fact is that this is not personal and no one cares where you live or your opinion about the relative convenience of the relocation.  Companies also notoriously abuse both contract and temp status.  I've seen coworkers "temp" with no benefits for 3 years.  And yes, contract employees can indeed be expected to comply with required working locations and set hours.  In fact, I've never had a contract position where the location and exact times of my work were not quite explicitly spelled out by the employer.

You don't like your job.  So, make it a habit to do at least one thing every day to find a new job.  Look at openings, apply, network . . . something every day.  You'll have a better job before you know it.  Meanwhile, keep the bridges strong, and when you do go be sure to thank them for the wonderful years there.  Best of luck!

LeaRae

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: I had it made
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2014, 01:09:05 AM »
No offense but this post makes you sound like a pain in the ass. Actually that might be unfair because I think some of the responses are jading me. I'm just not understanding the legal recourse part of the equation. I think you need to move on be it sooner or later.

I am not really interested in pursuing any legal recourse in this situation.  I've always been shocked about people suing their employers - I see it as a quick way to be blacklisted as an employee anywhere ever.

But, that doesn't mean I'm happy about it. 

Interestingly, a friend who knows nothing about this situation called me up tonight asking me if I wanted to rent an apartment downtown with her.  Yes, actually, I think I would.  I told her to give me 2 months.

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8626
  • Location: Australia or another awesome area
Re: I had it made
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2014, 02:18:07 AM »
It seems to me that you should sound out how flexible the situation is. OK you have found out that you can't work from home. However, are your hours flexible? Can you commute outside rush hour (it may be worth pointing out that it will be much worse for you than is has been for them, as you will be going with the traffic, and they have been going against the traffic)? Is there an effective bus or other public transport? Think about the things that will make this more bearable for you, and ask (in a non threatening way).

samburger

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 257
Re: I had it made
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2014, 06:53:34 AM »
I'm a contractor and I'm paid (dare I say) 50% less than I'm worth

This enough reason to find a new job.

Do the commute while you look for a new job. Don't renegotiate your contract. You need to get out completely.

LeaRae

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: I had it made
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2014, 01:13:13 AM »
So I have another question.  If I were to get a job offer today, and I wanted to finish my current contract for that large bonus I mentioned, which ends in two months, would it be appropriate to tell the employer offering the job that I need two months to transition from my old place of employment in order to finish that job?  Or is that too long of a time period?

zolotiyeruki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: I had it made
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2014, 05:55:54 AM »
So I have another question.  If I were to get a job offer today, and I wanted to finish my current contract for that large bonus I mentioned, which ends in two months, would it be appropriate to tell the employer offering the job that I need two months to transition from my old place of employment in order to finish that job?  Or is that too long of a time period?
I see no issues (etiquette-wise) telling your prospective employer that your start date is 2 months in the future.  A few years ago I interviewed for a position and told the interviewer I couldn't start until a few months later.  He asked why, and I told him it was because that was the point at which my then-employer's 401(k) match would become vested.  His response?  "We've all been there." :)  The new employer might have an urgent need for you, and might move on, but you can at least talk about it.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6368
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: I had it made
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2014, 06:43:39 AM »
So I have another question.  If I were to get a job offer today, and I wanted to finish my current contract for that large bonus I mentioned, which ends in two months, would it be appropriate to tell the employer offering the job that I need two months to transition from my old place of employment in order to finish that job?  Or is that too long of a time period?

An employer that values talent is prepared to wait for it. I don't make a judgment on whether you are good enough to fit into that bucket, it's really up to you to prove that.

I've seen an employer wait 10 months for someone, but that was for a very senior appointment.

mbl

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 311
Re: I had it made
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2014, 09:17:43 AM »
But now it's all ruined.  The office moved about 25 miles further south because some of the partners wanted it closer to their homes.  When I expressed my distaste for that decision, they just said, "we've been driving that far for 2 years, it's your turn."  So now, a hand full of us I have a lot longer commute, and a few of them have a much shorter commute.  For the short term at least, I'm going to be stuck with an hour commute in rush hour traffic twice a day.

Like hell it's going to be that way for long.


And that's the thing, when it's your business, you can make the decisions.    When you work for someone else...you're at their mercy

In addition to that, I've had some skepticism about the success of (their?) our [2.5 year old startup] company.  We aren't doing as well as I think we should be.   I'm a contractor andI'm paid (dare I say) 50% less than I'm worth (according to sites that list salaries and searching for comparable job descriptions), I don't get benes, and the partners are restricting more and more of our freedoms.  No more work-from-home days, mandatory working hours, etc...

The only way that you'll find out what you're worth, is by having a salary offer or rate offer(if you're going to continue contracting).    You're worth is determined by the amount that is given in an offer,  not by what websites list.     If you had an offer that did provide benefits at your current salary, even that would be a big improvement as benefits can add quite a lot to the overall compensation package.

It was worth it at first since I was new to the area and new to the software field (professionally, at least) and got the offer right away!  Hot damn a job!  And being a contractor supplied a lot of freedom for me to explore this new land I moved to.  But now the freedoms are being taken away, the compensation isn't scaling, and all I have to show for it is an [insulting?] 2.5% ownership in the company that goes away if I leave.


Insulting?   2.5% is better than nothing.   What makes you think that you should be given more?   What  do you provide in this organization that warrants more?


I've had some long difficult conversations with a couple of my more friendly colleagues expressing my distaste, and they agree with my frustrations.  The partners are concerned that I am no longer 100% invested in the success of their company, but I haven't worked up the confidence to tell them why.  I compared my work load to shoveling all the snow off of Mount Everest by myself - of course I'm grumpy.

I would tred carefully.  If they already perceive that you don't care a lot regarding the future of this start up,  your outlook won't look good with them.  In addition, you'd be surprised at how small the world is and how a poor impression with a first employer could come back to hurt you professionally.

I get a huge windfall [like, an extra 15% of my salary) bonus when I complete my new project in 2 months (a stretch, but I want that cash), so once that's complete and I get paid, I'll stop working double shifts and start considering what I want to do to solve this problem.  In the mean time, I've taken on one additional client for a couple-month side project, and started a project of my own to hopefully initiate a couple more sources of income.

That's great.  If you can contract on your own, that would be a good alternative.   But,  drumming up projects and the sales side of things is a whole other skill set and can end up taking a lot more of your time than S/W dev.

So, I am looking at apartments near my new office.  The only decent ones I find are either priced HIGHER - in the realm of $900/mo for a single bedroom - or impose ridiculous religious restrictions because of BYU being near by.  And I mean really ridiculous - like no drinking, no casual sex, no ONLINE GAMING..... my three favorite things!!  And they're in a much less desirable location (for me at least). 

I'm nervous about moving and signing a lease if I am going to be leaving the company soon.  I'd hate to be stuck with a commute in the other direction for several months if I take another job.  I really like my current place. 

I am considering renegotiating my contract with them.  If I worked part time, I could focus on other projects and other sources of income, boosting my own company further, and potentially a lot further.  I do not strictly need my full salary, and I could get by on half (but I'd have to stop saving, at least in the short term).


Anyways, lots of stresses vented.  Help?

Joggernot

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 513
  • Age: 73
  • Location: Gulf Coast, TX
Re: I had it made
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2014, 09:57:12 AM »
All of the above, plus consider borrowing a friend's RV and staying in a park near the new office while keeping your old apartment.  Should be cheaper than the total cost of a new apartment or keeping your old apartment and paying travel costs and travel time costs.

gimp

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2348
Re: I had it made
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2014, 01:27:27 PM »
2.5% may be better than nothing, but not by much.

The truth is, a stake in the company should only be priced by the company price. Has the company had investors? Did someone put in $2.5m in exchange for a 25% stake? Then a 2.5% stake is definitely worth a few dollars. Or is its seed funding $700k for a 70% stake? Then that's a different story altogether.

Wolf_Stache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Portland
    • Flower's Fang
Re: I had it made
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2014, 01:58:09 PM »
I grew up down there (Provo/Orem area) and a lot of my friends when they moved out of the house got stuck having to rent those BYU approved housing. It sucks, but they got around it by filling the apartment with other like minded people, who didn't report them for the little things like a guest using the bathroom (yes, some ofthem are THIS RESTRICTIVE!).

But honestly I think you should just suck it up at your current place for 2 months, then move downtown. I love downtown Salt Lake City, and if I ever have to move back to Utah that is where I would be.

I agree with the other posters, a 2.5% stake isn't insulting - its a benefit. I also work for a small startup, and I have a 0% stake, so keep in mind they didn't have to give you anything.

Another thing you said is you think your salary is low - well, salaries throughout the Salt Lake City area are notoriously low, because of all the competition from the two schools (BYU & UofU) nearby filled with students who don't want to leave the area. I got a 50% raise just by leaving the state, doing the exact same job I was doing in Salt Lake city. Especially in the Provo/Orem area, I don't have a single friend who makes a decent salary.

JohnGalt

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
  • Age: 34
  • Location: TX
Re: I had it made
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2014, 02:15:17 PM »
I grew up down there (Provo/Orem area) and a lot of my friends when they moved out of the house got stuck having to rent those BYU approved housing. It sucks, but they got around it by filling the apartment with other like minded people, who didn't report them for the little things like a guest using the bathroom (yes, some ofthem are THIS RESTRICTIVE!).

But honestly I think you should just suck it up at your current place for 2 months, then move downtown. I love downtown Salt Lake City, and if I ever have to move back to Utah that is where I would be.

I agree with the other posters, a 2.5% stake isn't insulting - its a benefit. I also work for a small startup, and I have a 0% stake, so keep in mind they didn't have to give you anything.

Another thing you said is you think your salary is low - well, salaries throughout the Salt Lake City area are notoriously low, because of all the competition from the two schools (BYU & UofU) nearby filled with students who don't want to leave the area. I got a 50% raise just by leaving the state, doing the exact same job I was doing in Salt Lake city. Especially in the Provo/Orem area, I don't have a single friend who makes a decent salary.

Well put

livetogive

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: I had it made
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2014, 12:19:33 AM »
The apartment restrictions made me laugh enough to sign in on my phone  and respond.

Those restrictions aren't legal and you can ignore them.  I had an apartment in Bloomington that outlawed all firearms which certainly didn't prevent me from keeping them.  Without getting into a gun argument,  you can't forbid something like that. It's similar to saying "We don't allow Catholics in our housing complex."   No Bueno

NeverWasACornflakeGirl

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 231
    • Mommy Won't Work
Re: I had it made
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2014, 06:42:03 AM »
No offense but this post makes you sound like a pain in the ass. Actually that might be unfair because I think some of the responses are jading me. I'm just not understanding the legal recourse part of the equation. I think you need to move on be it sooner or later.

Huh??  Couldn't disagree more on your first sentence.  Sounds to me like the OP has done a lot for his/her company and they've changed the deal and just expect her/him to put up with it.

I do agree with your last sentence, though.  The OP should get out as soon as that project is done.

BTW, using "no offense" in a comment does not mitigate the rest of the comment.  It's not a legal disclaimer.  No offense.  ;-)

LeaRae

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: I had it made
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2014, 09:43:12 AM »
No offense but this post makes you sound like a pain in the ass. Actually that might be unfair because I think some of the responses are jading me. I'm just not understanding the legal recourse part of the equation. I think you need to move on be it sooner or later.

Huh??  Couldn't disagree more on your first sentence.  Sounds to me like the OP has done a lot for his/her company and they've changed the deal and just expect her/him to put up with it.

I do agree with your last sentence, though.  The OP should get out as soon as that project is done.

BTW, using "no offense" in a comment does not mitigate the rest of the comment.  It's not a legal disclaimer.  No offense.  ;-)

lol;

Quote
Insulting?   2.5% is better than nothing.   What makes you think that you should be given more?   What  do you provide in this organization that warrants more?

Insulting because 7 of us started the company, and 3 of them got something like 60% of the "shares", leaving 20% hanging unaccounted for and splitting 20% up between the rest of us.  Until recently I thought of us all as equals, but they have made it clear that is not the case.  That's a large part of the frustrations I expressed in this thread.

Quote
2.5% may be better than nothing, but not by much.

The truth is, a stake in the company should only be priced by the company price. Has the company had investors? Did someone put in $2.5m in exchange for a 25% stake? Then a 2.5% stake is definitely worth a few dollars. Or is its seed funding $700k for a 70% stake? Then that's a different story altogether.

No investors, and they can't even afford the new office, so we're in the red now.   Something about a pep talk about how "we all love this new office, but we need to create new revenue streams [which we're confident you can do for us!] to keep it"

*grooooaannn*

Wolf_Stache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Portland
    • Flower's Fang
Re: I had it made
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2014, 11:09:09 AM »
Insulting because 7 of us started the company, and 3 of them got something like 60% of the "shares", leaving 20% hanging unaccounted for and splitting 20% up between the rest of us.  Until recently I thought of us all as equals, but they have made it clear that is not the case.  That's a large part of the frustrations I expressed in this thread.

No investors, and they can't even afford the new office, so we're in the red now.   Something about a pep talk about how "we all love this new office, but we need to create new revenue streams [which we're confident you can do for us!] to keep it"

*grooooaannn*
Speaking as an accountant -
is this set upas an LLC? As a C Corp??

Depending on how it is structured, that 2.5% could mean that if they need the capital, they can require the stockholders to pony up the money, meaning you could be on the hook to pay into the company at some point in the future if they continue to operate in the red.

BlueHouse

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3039
  • Location: WDC
Re: I had it made
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2014, 11:56:56 AM »
Insulting because 7 of us started the company, and 3 of them got something like 60% of the "shares", leaving 20% hanging unaccounted for and splitting 20% up between the rest of us.  Until recently I thought of us all as equals, but they have made it clear that is not the case.  That's a large part of the frustrations I expressed in this thread.

No investors, and they can't even afford the new office, so we're in the red now.   Something about a pep talk about how "we all love this new office, but we need to create new revenue streams [which we're confident you can do for us!] to keep it"

*grooooaannn*

Who pays your salary?  and who pays the bills for the office, equipment, furniture, electric? 

Please define the financial (or other) risk that you've taken on as a shareholder.  That will help identify how fair the situation is.
 
You'll also want to know how many shares are outstanding vs. how many can be issued.  It's possible (probable) that your shares could be further diluted, leaving you with fewer shares than you think. 

zolotiyeruki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: I had it made
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2014, 09:24:41 PM »
Those restrictions aren't legal and you can ignore them.  I had an apartment in Bloomington that outlawed all firearms which certainly didn't prevent me from keeping them.  Without getting into a gun argument,  you can't forbid something like that. It's similar to saying "We don't allow Catholics in our housing complex."   No Bueno
Students voluntarily sign an agreement to uphold the honor code.  Landlords voluntarily sign an agreement to maintain the BYU housing standards.  Given the fact that there's no coercion, you'd have a hard time arguing that such contracts are illegal.

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4734
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: I had it made
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2014, 06:58:04 AM »
Those restrictions aren't legal and you can ignore them.  I had an apartment in Bloomington that outlawed all firearms which certainly didn't prevent me from keeping them.  Without getting into a gun argument,  you can't forbid something like that. It's similar to saying "We don't allow Catholics in our housing complex."   No Bueno
Students voluntarily sign an agreement to uphold the honor code.  Landlords voluntarily sign an agreement to maintain the BYU housing standards.  Given the fact that there's no coercion, you'd have a hard time arguing that such contracts are illegal.

The issue is not that landlords are coerced by BYU; the issue is that said agreement imposes religious requirements on a third-party, namely, the apartment-seeking general public. The landlord is voluntarily agreeing to do things that he doesn't actually have the legal right to do.

zolotiyeruki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: I had it made
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2014, 10:16:13 AM »
The issue is not that landlords are coerced by BYU; the issue is that said agreement imposes religious requirements on a third-party, namely, the apartment-seeking general public. The landlord is voluntarily agreeing to do things that he doesn't actually have the legal right to do.
I think there's a fine line here.  By agreeing to the BYU standards, the landlords are agreeing to require their tennants to abide by the same standards of behavior.  Certainly if there was a requirement of "no <insert religion here> allowed," that would be unenforceable, but "No visitors of the opposite sex after 10pm" or "no alcohol" certainly is legal.

mboulder

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: I had it made
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2014, 10:27:16 AM »
A big part of working startups is knowing when to leave. Most people end up staying waaaay too long, to their detriment. From your description:

- After 2.5 years, they are still in the red
- You work in the software industry, which as I understand is hot in SLC right now (often makes top 10 tech city lists)
- You are making 50% of the standard pay in your area
- They are removing freedoms, like working from home, etc.
- Moving means more rent to pay and possible restrictive living situations. It also means moving to Provo, which may put you further away from potential jobs in SLC down the road.
- Moving to Provo, by your admission, means a less desirable location for you.

Worse case scenario is that your employment ends the day before your get your 15% bonus, cutting you off of those funds. If you get a job that pays twice your current pay (which you say is the market average), the 15% bonus will equal 7.5% of your new job's pay, which will be what, less than a month of your new job's pay?

Personally, I'd start looking for a new job today. The stress of commuting to a job where they treat you more and more like crap isn't worth it. Plus I see lots of red flags that the company is starting to sink. Be a rat! Flee that sinking ship! And definitely don't move to be closer to the job. It could take a lot of options away for finding a new job, it could mean restricted living arrangements, and all for loyalty to a company that is becoming worse to work at, and might not even be around much longer? No thanks!

Besides, SLC is waaay better than Provo, especially if your three favorite activities in life are drinking, casual sex and online gaming.

Wolf_Stache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Portland
    • Flower's Fang
Re: I had it made
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2014, 11:33:08 AM »
Besides, SLC is waaay better than Provo, especially if your three favorite activities in life are drinking, casual sex and online gaming.

You made me spit out my tea! Thanks for a laugh!*

*I grew up in Provo/Orem

jpo

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 518
  • Age: 32
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: I had it made
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2014, 01:47:31 PM »
This seems really simple.

  • Work 2 months.
  • Obtain bonus
  • ???
  • Find new job and profit

Sell/give away whatever stake you have in the company. Seems odd that contractors would be compensated by stock.

LeaRae

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: I had it made
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2014, 04:35:50 PM »
Speaking as an accountant -
is this set upas an LLC? As a C Corp??

Depending on how it is structured, that 2.5% could mean that if they need the capital, they can require the stockholders to pony up the money, meaning you could be on the hook to pay into the company at some point in the future if they continue to operate in the red.

I think the company is an LLC.  The "shares" aren't real stock - it's an "option plan" that I have the option to buy into after the vesting period - for me that ends in 3 years, but gets accelerated in the case of a large sale or something like that.  The intent is that if the company makes it big, I can buy in and profit, but if the company fails I have little liability.

You're an accountant?  My accountant [who is of high esteem among my colleagues] stopped responding to me and I need some help.  I see you no longer live in the area, but would you have a recommendation of someone who could help me?  My situation is kind of messed up, and I need help getting on the right side of the tax code again.


Who pays your salary?  and who pays the bills for the office, equipment, furniture, electric? 

Please define the financial (or other) risk that you've taken on as a shareholder.  That will help identify how fair the situation is.
 
You'll also want to know how many shares are outstanding vs. how many can be issued.  It's possible (probable) that your shares could be further diluted, leaving you with fewer shares than you think. 

Their company pays my company for contract work which then pays my salary (100% of what they pay my company).  The "Option Plan" is in my own name, short circuiting my company there.  They provide the office space and a desk, but my real equipment (computer, etc) is provided by me.  Right now I have 250 shares of 10,000.  They have the option at any time to offer more shares, which would dilute mine.  If I read the document correctly, I have no risk until I buy the shares after the vesting period is over, about 2 years from now.

This seems really simple.

  • Work 2 months.
  • Obtain bonus
  • ???
  • Find new job and profit

Sell/give away whatever stake you have in the company. Seems odd that contractors would be compensated by stock.

It is weird that contractors would be compensated with stock.  This is not stock, it's an "option plan" pretending to be stock.

ambimammular

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 386
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Indiana
Re: I had it made
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2014, 06:02:17 PM »

It sounds like this company doesn't know what an asset you are.  As a single guy, with no home owning obligations, I would be looking strongly at other cities with something more to offer you.