The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: StacheDreams on October 24, 2015, 09:18:13 PM
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I have only lurked on the forums, this is my first post so please forgive me if this topic has been covered before. Links to previous posts with advice would be welcomed!
TL;DR:
I used to be inspired by the thought of FIRE. Now it feels like I'm so desperate to reach it that I get frustrated when I read about others who have done so, and I'm not even close yet. Suggestions for not losing faith? I'd like planning for FIRE to be a positive experience.
Long Version:
I have been following MMM's blog since almost the beginning and find so much inspiration with this lifestyle. I grew up with working people all around me and never knew early retirement was even an option until MMM. Once I realized it could be done, I got so excited as I'd rather spend my time not working, and instead having freedom to choose what to do each day. I must admit, it spoiled my hard-working mindset once and for all.
I fit the profile of the MMM target audience: college-educated, mid-career high-salary IT job, late 30s female, married, no children, mortgage is our only debt, sizable 'stache saved in conservative investments. Husband doesn't work as my salary is enough and he has some health issues, but he is naturally very frugal, enjoys the simple things, and is extremely supportive of me retiring early.
Nothing to complain about, right? Seems obvious we are on a good track. However, I really want to retire NOW. I'm so tired of working. I don't have the savings yet to support retirement. I have explored many options for passive income, and for spreading around our 'stache to make it grow, etc. No matter which option I choose, it will take 8-10 years of more work. I understand this clearly. I know that I am lucky with my options, and any way I choose it would be considered EARLY retirement and I should be happy with that.
But I find myself becoming impatient. Instead of feeling motivated after reading MMM, I feel frustrated, discouraged and envious. This is not helpful for my plans. I feel my problem is 80% psychological and 20% financial (yes I could be doing better with frugality and investing). I need to change my attitude.
Has anyone else experienced this? How did you overcome it? Any and all suggestions welcome!
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I totally hear you. I used to fantasize about FIRE - growing my own food, trying hard recipes, learning about X Y and Z, whatever. Meanwhile, I'd spend the present fretting that I'm not there yet or wasting time on [insert website name here]. Rather than wait, I've actually started gardening, cooking things I've never done before, and actively seeking resources/podcasts/books on the topics I'm interested in, etc. I backslide sometimes, but on the whole I'm way happier and less worried.
Recognize your desire and envision your FIRE life. Then start incorporating those things into your life now.
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Also, welcome! Glad you jumped in. Now that you're not just lurking, I hope you will enjoy support here in the forum for things you specifically are concerned about and interested in!
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It sounds like it's time to switch into "autopilot" mode on the financial side of FIRE for awhile. Despite the fact that you don't care for working, it's what's going to fund the rest of your life. So what can you do to make it more bearable so you don't burn out and snap? Enjoy the power that FU money gives you to say what other people won't? Switch jobs (at least you'll have a new set of stories for the Anti-Mustachian section :))? Develop compelling interests outside the job? Gratitude journal (cheesy, but a lot of people swear by them)? The mind is a powerful thing...the more you tell yourself "I hate this job, I hate working, I want to be home" the more miserable you make yourself. Even forcing yourself to act happy can translate into feeling better sometimes.
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Do you talk to your husband about how you feel?
Any chance he could find something to do that pays? Even a part-time low stress job would make a difference, both financially and I'm guessing psychologically.
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Maybe try to make your non-working life more fun. Find some cheap or free new hobbies or go to free events in your community, join a meetup group etc...
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You've set up your life for the goal in 8-10 years, so live that life. If on the other hand you don't like that life then change that life. There is no reason to live a life that makes you unhappy,
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Well an obvious perspective is the max speed you can get to FI is from the savings rate chart.
If you can't whittle down spending or increase income then you are set on a path that will take a certain amount of time.. You can't fight that.
So you have no choice in the matter.
Having said that.. 18 years (at a 50% savings rate) does pass pretty quickly.
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And you must realize... what if you didn't have the MMM mindset? You'd still be fed up with your job, and would be far worse off :)
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It's depressing thinking about how much longer I have to work. I have to work another 15 years to be FI. Since I am in my mid-30's, that means I have to slave away until I am 50. I'll be old by then :) I don't have much in retirement accounts since I didn't start saving until a few years ago. I live in a HCOL area, which doesn't help, but my family is here and I don't want to leave. I've started going to meet ups, volunteering with rescue groups, and taking all of my vacation weeks at work to make life more enjoyable (and also so that I don't sit at home and obsess about money and how much more I still need). I also think about how much student loan debt I used to have (200k) and how little I have left. It's encouraging to think about the progress I have made. I'm hoping the next 15 years fly by...
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I think there is some good potential in your DH earning some side money that could offer you peace of mind. Even if he just sold stuff on ebay, whatever, a few hundred a month could add up to buy you an afternoon off, so you feel refreshed for the work battle. Or it could accelerate your FIRE date, if that's what you prefer.
Could you break your 8-10 year goal into smaller, momentum building chunks? At $x amount your food cost are paid off for all time. At $y your health care costs are covered forever. At $z you have both those, plus you can travel to see the relatives whenever you want. Etc.
If none of this works for you, I'd just put my head down for a while and stop looking at the retirement accounts. Just put them on automatic deposit and distract yourself with other activities for a while.
Best of luck, and chin up!
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It's depressing thinking about how much longer I have to work. I have to work another 15 years to be FI. Since I am in my mid-30's, that means I have to slave away until I am 50. I'll be old by then :) I don't have much in retirement accounts since I didn't start saving until a few years ago. I live in a HCOL area, which doesn't help, but my family is here and I don't want to leave. I've started going to meet ups, volunteering with rescue groups, and taking all of my vacation weeks at work to make life more enjoyable (and also so that I don't sit at home and obsess about money and how much more I still need). I also think about how much student loan debt I used to have (200k) and how little I have left. It's encouraging to think about the progress I have made. I'm hoping the next 15 years fly by...
Hey watch it..:).. I just had my 54th birthday and I don't feel any different to when I was 30..:)
I think you have to put the anxiety of "hurry and get there" thoughts to one side and live your life! My Mum used to tell me.. "Don't wish your life away" and she was right.
Put yourself on the path of frugality and savings and pray for a BIG recession!.. Yes I am serious.. When it comes buy like crazy on the way down and be much richer come the recovery.
In the meantime find what joy you can in day to day life. If you learn to be miserable, you might find that retirement doesn't make you happy either.
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FIRE isn't a purpose in life, it's about clearing the way do you have space and time for your purpose.
So what's the point of your life? I know it's a big question, but if you're feeling stuck, you need to refocus on your priorities. And key here- you need to find out how to work some of that in NOW, not down the road. We have to live for the present and the future simultaneously.
This post, you can basically replace "minimalism" with "FIRE" and the point still stands quite well: http://www.becomingminimalist.com/mini-happiness/ (http://www.becomingminimalist.com/mini-happiness/)
And then I also love this post: http://www.becomingminimalist.com/the-helpful-guide-to-living-an-intentional-life/ (http://www.becomingminimalist.com/the-helpful-guide-to-living-an-intentional-life/)
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I just turned 45, found MMM, and have been making changes in my life to ensure a secure financial future for my family. I also have worked hard to eliminate unnecessary spending which is not always easy. I would read blogs on the forum about members retiring at 35 and to be honest found myself getting aggravated even jealous of how fast some have reached FIRE.
Then I realized MMM is not a race to FIRE, but a lifestyle we choose. Try to stay focused on small PERSONAL accomplishments. I am not going to retire at 50, but here is what I am finding within this community. I maxed out my 401k for the first time in 2015 even with some reduction in my take home pay. My diet and health are getting better. My wife and I do not argue about finances any longer. We have goals which we are tackling together. I enjoy having less material things, more money to invest, not paying for cable, our Honda Accord with 200k miles.
Continue to find happiness every day in steps you are taking and you will have the BIG PRIZE which is living a happy life one day at a time.
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Lots of variables here. Do you live in a HCOL? What's your average yearly spending? How long have you been working? Could you downsize your house considerably? Would selling and renting be cheaper? How big is your stash right now? How long have you been working? What's your savings rate?
As you can see, there's too many variables that we don't know to give you any tangible advice. The generic advice given so far has been pretty good though.
Have you considered buying real estate? Real estate can literally half the amount of working years that you think you need over solely investing in stocks. Takes lots of education, research, and patience, but it can be worth it!
You do have options besides working for 8 more years and investing passively. You have many more options. Good luck.
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If you think early retirement will take too long to reach, consider the alternative: retiring when you reach 70.
That should be a real attitude fixer.
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I feel you. I am 2 years away from FIRE based on the 4% rule and my own stash. But I might work one or 2 more years to pad my stash a bit because I have a a non working wife and 2 young kids to support.
I have never clicked with my boss. It is no one's fault. It is just compatibility. I am not the type of person who is willing to suck up just for money. As I move closer to my finish line, my tolerance for BS becomes extremely low. People dependent on a regular paycheck would definitely suck up. I can't anymore.
I plan to fire my boss very soon.
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It's depressing thinking about how much longer I have to work. I have to work another 15 years to be FI. Since I am in my mid-30's, that means I have to slave away until I am 50. I'll be old by then :) I don't have much in retirement accounts since I didn't start saving until a few years ago. I live in a HCOL area, which doesn't help, but my family is here and I don't want to leave. I've started going to meet ups, volunteering with rescue groups, and taking all of my vacation weeks at work to make life more enjoyable (and also so that I don't sit at home and obsess about money and how much more I still need). I also think about how much student loan debt I used to have (200k) and how little I have left. It's encouraging to think about the progress I have made. I'm hoping the next 15 years fly by...
Hey watch it..:).. I just had my 54th birthday and I don't feel any different to when I was 30..:)
I think you have to put the anxiety of "hurry and get there" thoughts to one side and live your life! My Mum used to tell me.. "Don't wish your life away" and she was right.
Put yourself on the path of frugality and savings and pray for a BIG recession!.. Yes I am serious.. When it comes buy like crazy on the way down and be much richer come the recovery.
In the meantime find what joy you can in day to day life. If you learn to be miserable, you might find that retirement doesn't make you happy either.
From your posts I actually thought you were in your 30's. FIRE makes you younger? :)
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It's depressing thinking about how much longer I have to work. I have to work another 15 years to be FI. Since I am in my mid-30's, that means I have to slave away until I am 50. I'll be old by then :) I don't have much in retirement accounts since I didn't start saving until a few years ago. I live in a HCOL area, which doesn't help, but my family is here and I don't want to leave. I've started going to meet ups, volunteering with rescue groups, and taking all of my vacation weeks at work to make life more enjoyable (and also so that I don't sit at home and obsess about money and how much more I still need). I also think about how much student loan debt I used to have (200k) and how little I have left. It's encouraging to think about the progress I have made. I'm hoping the next 15 years fly by...
Hey watch it..:).. I just had my 54th birthday and I don't feel any different to when I was 30..:)
I think you have to put the anxiety of "hurry and get there" thoughts to one side and live your life! My Mum used to tell me.. "Don't wish your life away" and she was right.
Put yourself on the path of frugality and savings and pray for a BIG recession!.. Yes I am serious.. When it comes buy like crazy on the way down and be much richer come the recovery.
In the meantime find what joy you can in day to day life. If you learn to be miserable, you might find that retirement doesn't make you happy either.
Well said.
This was me too. I'm 51 and just FIRE'ed. And I felt much like the OP in my mid 30s when I was mid-career in IT.
OP: It can be done. And while you're frustrated now, there are likely a shitton of good times coming your way BEFORE you retire. Don't get so focused on the frustration that you miss out. If your job sucks the life out of you too much.... consider changing jobs (even look for the possibility of job changes within your current company).
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Agree with exflyboy, 50 isn't old. (I turn 52 this February) :) I have been focused on fire for several years and the time does go by faster than you expect. That being said I spent those years preparing every way I could. Downsizing home to an area I can have an active retirement, cutting expenses, eliminating debt, getting a firm handle on minimum costs to live the lifestyle my wife and I want. Also agree with the concept of taking advantage of down markets. While the world was falling apart in 2008/2009 I was buying fortune 500 dividend payers. Been reinvesting those ever since and now have a nice income stream. Also, if you are prepared you never know what might happen to help you out. I was planning to work until 2018 to gain some retirement $ that would have vested. Just got offered the same package to leave by years end so just cut about 2.5 years off! The entire journey to fire has been fantastic! Can't wait for the next chapter! Enjoy your path to freedom!
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Can you retire now by relocating and downsizing to a cheaper area with a smaller house?
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Last night I went to a Gala (Black Tie Optional) for a charity for which I sit on the board. As a member of that board there is an expected yearly giving level and its not inexpensive. Why do I do it? My boss expects it and my boss put me on the board when they didn't want to do it. The Gala was a live and silent auction event and money was being thrown around with great abandon!!! For instance one item that was auctioned; a trip to Germany where you are taken to the factory to see your new Mercedes S Class role out of the factory. Then you get in and drive your new Mercedes through the stunning Black Forest in isolated luxury to arrive at a 5 star resort and spa in the mountains for a one week stay. Then your new Mercedes can be shipped back to the US and delivered to your driveway.
As I was leaving the event (Valet parking only), I was standing and waiting for my car, a 14 year old Honda, watching the Land Rovers, Mercedes etc being pulled up and I'm making small talk with people. I have no idea how the people I am around live their lives but I have to think they must have incredible riches with these obvious displays of wealth. I was thinking I just want to FIRE and live a quiet, frugal life.
I'm expected to work very long hours which does not allow me to spend time on the things I love and my job is incredibly stressful. My days at work are not fun.
My point being; for me the path to FIRE is not an easy one, its difficult. If it wasn't I think more people would do it. Its probably also times like these and times like recessions where you keep investing that separate those who make it and those who don't. I'm still not convinced I'll make it because this has been an incredibly expensive year for me but I am damn sure going to keep working hard toward it - because its what I want.
(Funny story; I bid on that Mecedes Germany trip in order to bump the price for the auction and for about 20 seconds when no one bid I thought I was going to end up with it - I thought I was going to need to change my pants - F! So Scary!)
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Can you retire now by relocating and downsizing to a cheaper area with a smaller house?
This. We need more data from the OP but this is a great solution.
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Maybe you could look at taking a year gap, in one or two years. Motivation could be helped by this "middle" goal, and you'd be full of energy for the last 5/6 years to go.
Look at this article by livingafi. http://livingafi.com/2015/08/04/taking-a-gap-year/ (http://livingafi.com/2015/08/04/taking-a-gap-year/)
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Millionaire Fastlane. Get the audio book if you are lazy
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I've dropped my goal amount and remaining years consistently as I get closer to fire. It's now down to about 40 from the original 47. Three more years to go, and yes like Sharpy, my tolerance for office bull keeps getting lower and lower!
Whenever it feels like it'll be forever for me, I just have to look around at my firends and family and remind myself that they most likely can't fire until their 60's or more. That makes me feel far better. Technically I could fire and be ok today, but I plan to spend more post fire due to all the traveling I want to do.
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It's depressing thinking about how much longer I have to work. I have to work another 15 years to be FI. Since I am in my mid-30's, that means I have to slave away until I am 50. I'll be old by then :) I don't have much in retirement accounts since I didn't start saving until a few years ago. I live in a HCOL area, which doesn't help, but my family is here and I don't want to leave. I've started going to meet ups, volunteering with rescue groups, and taking all of my vacation weeks at work to make life more enjoyable (and also so that I don't sit at home and obsess about money and how much more I still need). I also think about how much student loan debt I used to have (200k) and how little I have left. It's encouraging to think about the progress I have made. I'm hoping the next 15 years fly by...
Hey watch it..:).. I just had my 54th birthday and I don't feel any different to when I was 30..:)
I think you have to put the anxiety of "hurry and get there" thoughts to one side and live your life! My Mum used to tell me.. "Don't wish your life away" and she was right.
Put yourself on the path of frugality and savings and pray for a BIG recession!.. Yes I am serious.. When it comes buy like crazy on the way down and be much richer come the recovery.
In the meantime find what joy you can in day to day life. If you learn to be miserable, you might find that retirement doesn't make you happy either.
From your posts I actually thought you were in your 30's. FIRE makes you younger? :)
Hah!.. Right.
Now the best bit.. I really enjoy this little hobby job because.. well because I DON'T have to be there..:)
I have just completed a large engineering project and logged 91 hours on my time sheet. (15 hours of it was sitting on an airplane). I have never done that before and I won't be doing it again any time soon.
But the fact they will have a little grumble because they will pay me over $6000 for a week's work, well that just makes me smile..:)
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You already have everything you need to live the life you want. Whether or not you work, how much money you have, what your obligations are -- these help determine the way in which you live that life -- but they are not the same as your life.
FIRE in and of itself is not a meaningful goal. It's simply a financial state of being. Identify your core values, work on creating a life that expresses and fulfills them, and you'll have a great life no matter how much money you do or don't have.
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Thank you all for your responses! I'm relieved that I am not the only one who has felt this way, and that there is hope to change my mindset. You've offered me some clever ideas and much-needed moral support. :)
Some of you have mentioned that I didn't give a lot of details, so here are more (feel free to skip this wall of text):
Housing:
- I live just outside a HCOL area. I did this deliberately, as this is a major IT area, and housing gets more affordable the further out you go. My husband and I chose this town with the purpose of retiring here eventually. It's got everything we need and like to do within walking / biking / bus distance of our house, and we are very happy here.
- Our house is small already, 900 sf / 2bd / 1ba, and quite manageable. We will have it paid off less than 5 years from now.
- Our mortgage is smaller than renting a similar house in our area. Rent prices closer to work, in tiny apartments, are actually 20% more than our mortgage on average.
Commute:
- The flip side of the housing decision is that I have to commute...far...35 miles each way almost every day. This is the most Anti-MMM part of my life. I knew this when I moved here, and I took it on with determination to make the best of it as the trade offs are great (lifestyle, housing, salary, other job opportunities, etc.).
- I have arranged for telecommuting 1-3 days a week, so that helps. I can carpool with colleagues, or I can take a free bus to work (although with stops it takes nearly 2 hours each way, so driving myself is faster). However, it does take a toll on my energy. Once I am able to telecommute full time, or retire, this will disappear completely.
- My car costs are negligible, as we have a 12 year old Toyota, paid off, with excellent gas mileage, and I don't drive myself every day.
Spending / Savings
- My savings rate is 12% of gross income. Which means I could do better with spending. Right now my highest costs (aside from taxes) are housing, health care, and food. I'm working on the food now, having lots of fun with cooking on a budget, which I enjoy.
- Our 'stache is approximately 5 years' worth of take-home pay right now.
- I'm also one of those weird people who loves spreadsheets, so tracking finances is fun for me and I have done it for years. Which I should probably relax a bit on, in order to stop getting disheartened with my FIRE date.
- My husband does have an ebay store on the side, which doesn't make a lot of money, so I didn't mention it before. He does it mostly for his own enjoyment. Any money he makes goes right back into his store expenses, or gets saved. He doesn't make much, but his savings rate is 90%.
Income
- My IT job.....sigh. I'm not passionate about it at all. However, it pays a LOT. I'm good at it. It's easy for me. I like the people I work with. The benefits are fantastic (especially medical, which is great for hubby).
- I've been working since I was 12 (dragged into the family business), stayed there all through high school, and worked at other companies during and after college. I didn't get into IT until I was in my late 20s. Once I arrived at the job I have now, I saw it for the blessing it was, and I took it. There's no way I'm letting it go; I've seen what's out there and the other options just don't compensate like this. I could be burned out, so I will look into other positions at the same company, but leaving outright just seems too risky when I have it so good. I'm also in training for certifications which should qualify me for a pay bump down the road, which gives me some hope.
- In my life, I have owned 4 properties. Now I am down to only one, my primary residence. I freely admit that landlording is not for me. I tried it both as an owner, and also as an on-site apartment manager when I was a renter. I have given it multiple chances and decided against it. However, if I change my mind, my current home is zoned for a tenant unit should I choose to build one in the future.
- My husband and I have no family left to help us, so we are very careful with our money. Also, my mother died in her 50s of cancer, so in addition to watching my health, I wanted to pursue FIRE so I'd have more time to enjoy life in case it happened to me too.
I think I've been pretty good about selecting life choices that fit a MMM / FIRE lifestyle that work for me (commute aside, which is a total...but temporary...sacrifice). This is why I feel that an attitude change is my best option to get through the next decade - that everything else is okay for now except my mindset. If you see other areas for improvement, I'm happy to hear them!
I also agree with those of you who said to take periodic time off; I realized I've worked straight through my life with no real vacations except for weddings, funerals, family gatherings, and other "required" functions. No more! You all have inspired me to do better.
TL;DR: thanks to everyone for your advice! This forum rocks!!
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If you're considering taking a break, livingafi has a great post on Taking a Gap Year (http://livingafi.com/2015/08/04/taking-a-gap-year/) that goes over the pros and cons, including the total effect on how much it adds to your total time to FI. (Hint: it doesn't add much aside from the time you take off.)
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Sounds like you are making a big deal out of something pretty minor. You just need a nice vacation, which may slightly derail your plan (slow the savings or spend some $$), but hopefully will recharge your batteries.
Think for a minute about what you are trying to do ..... You are talking about retiring in your 40's !!!!
This is huge, and requires great discipline, hardships, etc. which likely will be quite stressful. This was your choice.
The average American works till at least 65, and even then doesn't have adequate retirement savings.
You claim to be on target for getting it done 20 years ahead of average. Pat yourself on the back for your efforts thus far, take a little break to get recharged, then get back to the grind and make it happen. Good luck !
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You guys are wonderful, thanks for taking the time to reply to me. I have printed these out for my darker days as a reminder.
Appreciate the face punches! I really needed them. :)
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I'm glad you posted this, as I can relate to everything you said. I'm in my 30's too, and feel like 50 seems "old" (sorry to those 50 year young folks out there!) especially compard to all those Mustachians who retired at 35!
But I think it's more about having this mindset that FI is the end goal and we're just "wasting" the next 10-15 years of our lives. As other posters said, we should try to enjoy our lives NOW, regardless of how soon or far our goals are. Easier said than done though, esp for people like me who like to obsess over spreadsheets and numbers everyday! Sometimes I get so discouraged that I end up falling off the wagon and spending more money which just makes me feel worse!